Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2011

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 19 Mar 2011 05:41

ramana wrote:If you go by Stratfor guru's latest book the US will fund the TSP no matter what unless QE weakens them!

I use to subscribe to Stratfor, they are quite misinformed about indo fak-ap affairs. From the = = he proposes, for india-pak, looks like he is fighting the last war. Things have changed with China's emergence, now its = = between India and China.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 19 Mar 2011 06:04

praksam wrote:Is this false alarm??

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/worl ... .asp?scr=1
ISTANBUL - Local media in Pakistan has said that the military has been put on high alert yesterday over a possible strike by India, Qatar-based television network Al Jazeera reported on its Web site.

http://www.stratfor.com/memberships/188 ... or-sources

On the def & dmb fora, its being marketed as Kiyani is ready to shoot down drones...which is hype for the abduls after their tatte chook.

I think the tatte chook video is essential viewing. It would be great if we can make it a verb, a la " to Google", GUBO, and now "TC".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 06:14

Prem wrote:
RajeshA wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0DLzdXYIRo
shiv saar,
this is a great ode to the TFTA Pakistani Army!
tattey chukk bhai tattey chukk!
khuddaari de phattey chukk!
This guy needs to be enrolled into BRF asap!
This is the onlee highly intellectual kind of language Poak understand. The guy deserve to have his portrait installed at Aiwan-e-Sadr, next to Jinnha carrying English Choorchil's Tatte on left soulder and Saudi on the right . Close and easy to lick woth Poaklongtongue.

This could go in the first post of Paki threads perhaps?

A translation would be good. I could subtitle it and re-upload.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 06:16

ramana wrote:Family forum na! Can't do that here.

If that is the problem I would like to receive a translation on email on bennedose at hotmail from anyone who can spend the time on doing the translation. I will do the subtitling and upload on one of my channels.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 06:18

Guddu wrote:Kiyani is ready to shoot down drones...which is hype for the abduls after their tatte chook.

Yes. And I am ready to welcome all top hollywood and bollywood actresses into my harem.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 19 Mar 2011 06:32

Guddu wrote: On the def & dmb fora, its being marketed as Kiyani is ready to shoot down drones...which is hype for the abduls after their tatte chook.

.

If 'kiya-nahi' tries such silly antics, he'll invite the wrath of B-2' and B-52' next! This chest beating is to get the heat off yesterday's 'double-penetration' - RD's release at a price of 5 Ferraris and uncle's immediate 'Shukriya' through wholesale blessings by droneacharya. Now that RD has been released, something tells me that droneacharya will make more guest visits to N.Waziristan in the days to come..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Mar 2011 06:41

Ambar wrote:. . . something tells me that droneacharya will make more guest visits to N.Waziristan in the days to come..

The US has no other option than sending in the drones there. Pakistanis have simply refused to do anything there. It is a redline they have drawn. The assets that the Americans are trying to eliminate have a long term crippling effect on Pakistan.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 19 Mar 2011 07:41

Want to clarify one point. No one is sending drones in there and Kayani is 'nanga' when it comes to shooting them down.

Drones take off, land, are maintained, refueled and armed on Paki bases by TSPA. US of A presses the button, that's it.

Never understood this Paki drone victim hood spin that far too many in the media buy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 08:03

Does anyone know what this means:

mangal jung parachinar Kurram Agency Sadda manduri jalamai Bangash

Related video (The above text is the name)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XXEsx7Elgk

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 08:07

Theo_Fidel wrote:Want to clarify one point. No one is sending drones in there and Kayani is 'nanga' when it comes to shooting them down.

Drones take off, land, are maintained, refueled and armed on Paki bases by TSPA. US of A presses the button, that's it.

Never understood this Paki drone victim hood spin that far too many in the media buy.

A related fact is that apart from button pressing the Pakis are gaining considerable experience in UAV/UCAV ops (as per Vayu)- which can be used tomorrow against one of the following. Select one:
1. Chile
2. Japan
3. Tomboctou
4. India

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 19 Mar 2011 08:15

They use TSP's air-bases, i'm not sure how much of an approval Ameerkhan needs from Pindi everytime they fire a missile. N.Waziristan has been a strict no-go area for US so far, and they've been pressuring TSP to launch operations in N.Wz forever now. I don't think it is merely double-penetration H&D takleef that made pindi and Islumabad go apes over the drone attack, it is probably because some key Kunduz assets were eliminated by the yanks who flipped a birdie at Kiyani and co.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 08:16

Here is a list of YouTube videos from Pakistan that are trying to prove that Shias are Kufr. One of the videos in this list is the one posted earlier showing Pakis falling at the feet of a man in a wheelchair on a lawn

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... istan&aq=f

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Mar 2011 08:37

Ambar, you are right. There are areas where PA collaborates with the Americans because it is in their current interest to do so, like actions against the 'bad Taliban' (aka sour grapes). Then, there are areas where they put up a pretense of being a MNNA but really help their strategic assets (aka good Taliban). Then, there are areas where Pakistan draws redlines for the Americans not to cross, like in North Waziristan. There may also be some neutral areas where PA does not care as to what happens.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Mar 2011 09:42

The Forgotten Genocide

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... l2/English

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 19 Mar 2011 10:16

praksam wrote:Is this false alarm??

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/worl ... .asp?scr=1
ISTANBUL - Local media in Pakistan has said that the military has been put on high alert yesterday over a possible strike by India, Qatar-based television network Al Jazeera reported on its Web site.

http://www.stratfor.com/memberships/188 ... or-sources

The article is dubious. It shows date as on today but..

In another development yesterday, India’s foreign minister criticized the international reaction to last month's attacks on Mumbai, saying pressure put on Pakistan by world leaders was inadequate. "

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2011 10:22

And it says Pranab Mukherjee is the MEA.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Mar 2011 13:14

A related fact is that apart from button pressing the Pakis are gaining considerable experience in UAV/UCAV ops (as per Vayu)- which can be used tomorrow against one of the following.

Good point, Shiv avare...never thought of it that way!!

The day the Amir-Khans donate a few UCAVs to TSPA ( not too far away, IMHO), the Pakis already would be ready to use them having gained all the experience.

Of course, the UCAVs will be given with "strict conditions" that they are not to be used against India...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Mar 2011 16:55

India's prosperity depends on Pakistan: Chief WKK

Veteran journalist Kuldip Nayar said that media in Pakistan and India could play an important role in improving relations between the two countries.

He expressed these views while addressing a reception hosted by the Karachi Press Club (KPC) in honour of a nine-member Indian peace delegation headed by him here on Friday.

He said: “There is a mistrust in the minds of people of both countries. The situation can not be improved until this mistrust is removed. {But, before leaving for Pakistan, he said that it was the bureaucrats of the two countries who had this mistrust, IIRC. Now, he has made the most accurate statement that the people have this mistrust} ” He stressed the need to rewrite the history books in India and Pakistan {Rewriting Pakistani textbooks is OK. But, rewriting Indian history books will only create more problems because today they suppress information to propagate a particular mythical narrative, won't they ?} so as to mitigate the hatred between the two countries.

Nayyar said, “Indeed people of Pakistan and India have soft corners among their hearts for each others {Now, wait a minute. Didn't he say just now that the teo peoples exhibit mistrust ?} but some powers, who do not want peace in the subcontinent, create hurdles to keep them away from each other. The integrity and prosperity of India depends on the integrity and prosperity of Pakistan.” He recalled that at the time of partition, over one million people were killed and 20 million others were displaced on both sides of the borders. “At that time I thought that we would not let any one to shed blood in the name of religion but I felt ashamed when later massacres were reported,” Nayyar said.

“Every year on the night between August 14-15, we have been lighting candles at the Attari-Wagah border for 19 years in a hope of a long lasting friendship between the two countries,” he said. Another senior journalist Jatin Desai praised the atmosphere and the democratic history of KPC in his speech. He shed light on steps taken to resolve the controversial issues between Pakistan and India and stressed the need to take some solid measure to resolve the issues of fishermen and civilian prisoners in both sides of border.

He said that Indian Home Secretary and Pakistan Interior Ministry officials are going to meet on March 28th to discuss bilateral issues. “We should ask both the governments to include those issues in the agenda on a priority basis,” he said.

A former member of the Indian Parliament Shahid Siddiqui said on the occasion that some global forces did not want to see improving relations between the two countries for their economic interests. He added that India is the largest buyer of weapons from the Western world. KPC President Tahir Hassan Khan, Prof Luxumy Parshad, Pakistan Institute of Labur Education and Research (PILER)’s CEO Karamat Ali were also present on the occasion.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Mar 2011 17:17

Just let us complete the sentence for him....India;'s prosperity depends on Pakistan 's complete destruction.

Let him go on kissing candles for another 19 years...once people of his generation are gone, Pakbaric animalistan and the so-called fond memories of hot chai in Lahore etc., will be buried along with them. In its place there will be memories of Bamiyan, Mumbai, Taseer/Bhatti and so many other contributions to humanity by Pakbaric animals..

archan · Post by **archan** » 19 Mar 2011 18:11

sum wrote:
A related fact is that apart from button pressing the Pakis are gaining considerable experience in UAV/UCAV ops (as per Vayu)- which can be used tomorrow against one of the following.
Good point, Shiv avare...never thought of it that way!!

The day the Amir-Khans donate a few UCAVs to TSPA ( not too far away, IMHO), the Pakis already would be ready to use them having gained all the experience.

Of course, the UCAVs will be given with "strict conditions" that they are not to be used against India...

Are they hard to detect/shoot down?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 19:01

archan wrote:
sum wrote: The day the Amir-Khans donate a few UCAVs to TSPA ( not too far away, IMHO), the Pakis already would be ready to use them having gained all the experience.

Of course, the UCAVs will be given with "strict conditions" that they are not to be used against India...
Are they hard to detect/shoot down?

They are small and therefore difficult to detect. They are relatively cheap and can be produced in numbers. They could be used as decoys to draw away defenders while other targets are attacked.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Mar 2011 19:11

shiv wrote:
archan wrote: Are they hard to detect/shoot down?
They are small and therefore difficult to detect. They are relatively cheap and can be produced in numbers. They could be used as decoys to draw away defenders while other targets are attacked.

The root issue is not whether India can deal with the problem but why Amir-Khans should set up the problem in the first place.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 19:13

saadhak wrote:I have been an addicted lurker on BRF for more than a month now. Finally decided to take the plunge and change status from spectator to participant.

I think this should be a question for the TSP thread, but will be discrete and play it safe since this is my first post.
Am curious why the role of KSA is not being discussed or has not been been brought up in the RD discussion.
Events in the recent past seem to indicate that KSA played a pivotal role in the outcome.
The implications when deliberated can help to learn (or re-inforce what is known) quite a bit not only about the US - KSA relation but also about which 'nabj' of TSP to press for getting what done.

Some thoughts around the KSA angle:
1. US president, senators, secretary of state and others failed to get a positive response; but TSP respectfully agreed and accepted KSA a trusted broker
2. With US saying they did not pay the blood money and TSP not coming forward (obviously), quite likely that KSA cut the cheque. (chutte paise for them to get this issue resolved)
3. If KSA funded the diyat, it seems to be a lesser evil than TSP extracting a cost. (TSP extracting a cost ultimately translates into India paying the cost in terms of lives - among other actual time and money costs)
4. If the KSA did indeed play a pivotal role, it means TSP did not exactly get to drag this RD affair as long as they would have liked to. Which means they compromised and were unable to milk it to its full potential. Good thing for us. At least a lesser evil.
5. Wondering why Pakis are not letting out a squeak about KSA trying to broker a deal - whose sole purpose was to free RD. Would love to see Pakis cursing KSA along with Unkil.

Cross post from the newbie thread. the right place for this is in the Packee thread.

KSA's role has been discussed on and off but in my view KSA's role should not be raised to levels that are unrealistic. KSA is basically a nation of Wahhabi fat asses who are under the control of the USA. Only the Wahhabism has been exported with no US export controls. The Pakistanis of course were designed from the outset to lick any Islamic ass - and will particularly select rich Islamic asses to lick. Saudi influence revolves around Pakistani willingness to lick Saudi ass at any time and under any circumstances because they (Pakis) have rejected and frittered away the identity that Islam in India had built up outside the Saudi sphere of influence.

After oil KSA is set to become an industrial powerhouse manufacturing egg timers from all the sand they have. They GDP was not that much higherthan that of Finland IIRC - but I am willing to be corrected. I refuse to ask my unkal Googal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2011 19:16

A_Gupta wrote: The root issue is not whether India can deal with the problem but why Amir-Khans should set up the problem in the first place.

Absolutely. But to take the side of Amir Khans I would say that are dumb at best (if powerful) and are easily taken for a ride by Pakis pretending sincerity. Got to give it to the Pakis for imagination and ingenuity. Pakistan is India gone bad.

But who will tell the AmriKhans the Indian viewpoint? It must be pressed home relentlessly.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Mar 2011 21:29

Wah wah. Actually Iftikhar, yindu's realised this post 26/11. Talks with civil leaders are just for show.

And now, track-II with the generals

Finally, New Delhi realises the importance of engaging with the real power in Pakistan: its army, reports IFTIKHAR GILANI

LAMENTING INDIA’S handicapped Pakistan policy, a top official in the security establishment once linked it with the lack of diplomatic access to Pakistan’s nerve centre — the Pakistan Army. He joked that only Kashmiri separatists and Americans have penetration and communication with GHQ in Rawalpindi, the decision-making centre.

The public got a glimpse of this gap in diplomacy after the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, when Pakistan’s political leadership backed out from sending its Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) chief to New Delhi and later nearly created a war-like hysteria over a mysterious telephone call to President Asif Ali Zardari’s office when foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi was still at the Taj Hotel in Delhi. Fearing an attack, a special Pakistan Air Force plane landed at Delhi early in the morning to evacuate the minister.

It now seems India has hit on the right formula. Officially, India may still vow to have struck a chord with the democratically elected government in Pakistan. But for the sake of sustaining the formal diplomatic engagement beginning on 28 March with the meeting of home secretaries, the government is believed to have succeeded in building a direct channel with the Pakistan Army.

Holding up the dialogue process in the aftermath of 26/11 was no doubt an expression of anger, but even more, it was an attempt to seek a credible guarantee from the Pakistan Army to put an end to terrorist activities against India as committed by General Pervez Musharraf in a joint statement he signed with Atal Bihari Vajpayee on 6 January 2004 in Islamabad.

Reports from Islamabad suggest that Indian High Commissioner Sharat Sabharwal had met Pakistan Army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani ahead of foreign secretaries of both countries agreeing on the resumption of talks in Thimpu last month. Reports say these engagements have continued in recent times as well, as home secretaries are slated to discuss India’s request to interrogate Lashkar-e- Toiba main accused in the 26/11 attacks.

Powerful ISI chief Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha has also met representatives of the Indian armed forces posted in the High Commission in Islamabad and is believed to have conveyed to them that India needs to talk directly with the Pakistan Army. Earlier, Pasha had attended an iftar party thrown by the Indian High Commissioner for the first time. The ISI had also hosted farewell parties for some Indian defence advisers who were returning after completing their tenures in Islamabad.

Over the past few months, Indian defence advisers were also invited to attend the passing out parade at the Pakistan Military Academy in Kakul.

‘The offer to open channels with the Pakistan Army had come from them,’ says Sawhney

On its part, the Indian establishment has reciprocated by inviting the head of the National Defence University in Islamabad. India also invited the Pakistan High Commissioner to address its military officers at the National Defence Academy.

SUSHANT SAREEN, a key Pakistan expert at India’s premier strategic think-tank Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), believes only a credible engagement with Pakistan’s military will bring peace in the region. He even ridicules dependence on the civil society of Pakistan for raising a constituency of peace. According to Sareen, what goes as civil society in Pakistan is really a fringe group of around 1,000 people, which, if one is very charitable, can be raised to 5,000.

“The manner in which the progress made on the people-to-people front between 2004 and 2008 was practically overnight reduced to nothing after the 26/11 terrorist strike in Mumbai should be proof enough that when it comes to India-Pakistan relations, people tend to follow the line set by their establishments. In other words, people-to-people relations flower when the establishment allows them, and they wither away when the establishment shuts the door on them,” says Sareen.

At the government level, even the National Security Advisory Board is believed to have advised opening direct links with Pakistan’s Army. “A dialogue with Pakistan military will help India, both in understanding the military’s viewpoint and getting its own across directly,” said the conclusions of a report that discussed dealing with an unstable Pakistan.

Cordiality Indian envoy S Sabharwal with Pakistan interior minister Malik

PHOTO: AP

Even as director generals of military operations (DGMOS) of both countries do talk almost every Tuesday, PK Upadhyay, a consultant at IDSA, suggests that it could be extended to the military intelligence directorates and the army headquarters of both countries. However, he is sceptical of overburdening the Indian military with such engagements, fearing it would lead to an undue interference of the military into political and diplomatic matters. “If the nation is there, security and defence are needed, but if the nation is reduced to a jail under some grotesque concepts and concerns for security and defence, let Pakistan have that concept of nationhood for as long as it can sustain it,” he says.

Noted defence expert Pravin Sawhney says vibes to open channels with the Pakistan Army had originally come from them. ISI chief Pasha, a former DGMO, had actually reportedly suggested this approach in 2009 to the Indian military adviser in Islamabad. He also reminded that back-channel talks that benefited meaningful progress on Kashmir between 2004-07 were conducted under President Musharraf, who was also a military chief.

“Not talking with the Pakistan Army is tantamount to ignoring ground realities; the urgent need for both is to pick up the threads from earlier talks and start arms control negotiations under the MOU signed with the Lahore Declaration of 21 February 1999,” says Sawhney.

Dispelling the impression that such an approach will increase the role of the Indian Army in political affairs, Sawhney is confident that such demand will not come from the military leadership, which is disciplined and rooted in the idea of democracy. “Perhaps, they are not even capable of matching the Pakistan Army leadership’s strategic insights,” he adds.

Of course, there is a consensus in India that foreign policy is led by the executive and the army does not interfere in decision- making. So engaging with the generals across the border can merely be one more arrow in the strategic quiver.

I am not surprised that it came from them or this maybe an obfuscation. Pakistan is currently at its weakest state ever. They are overstretched. This is probably one of the biggest reasons for reciprocation in talks.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Mar 2011 21:36

“Perhaps, they are not even capable of matching the Pakistan Army leadership’s strategic insights,”

Yes, we are all overwhelmed by the strategic brilliance of the Pakistani Army's leadership.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 19 Mar 2011 21:41

Noted defence expert Pravin Sawhney

“Perhaps, they are not even capable of matching the Pakistan Army leadership’s strategic insights,”

Well this is how one flushes credibility, if there was any, down pakistan.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Mar 2011 21:47

Holding up the dialogue process in the aftermath of 26/11 was no doubt an expression of anger, but even more, it was an attempt to seek a credible guarantee from the Pakistan Army to put an end to terrorist activities against India as committed by General Pervez Musharraf in a joint statement he signed with Atal Bihari Vajpayee on 6 January 2004 in Islamabad.

So after every attack, we just show our ( so called) anger to ensure that the attack never happens again as was promised in 2004 ( and broken N number of times)?

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 19 Mar 2011 22:51

Finally, New Delhi realises the importance of engaging with the real power in Pakistan: its army, reports IFTIKHAR GILANI

Gila-nahi sahab, India engaged with the supreme Kammandoo phor many saal. What was gained, I pooch?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Mar 2011 23:00

shyamd wrote:
Reports from Islamabad suggest that Indian High Commissioner Sharat Sabharwal had met Pakistan Army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani ahead of foreign secretaries of both countries agreeing on the resumption of talks in Thimpu last month.
Powerful ISI chief Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha has also met representatives of the Indian armed forces posted in the High Commission in Islamabad and is believed to have conveyed to them that India needs to talk directly with the Pakistan Army.
Over the past few months, Indian defence advisers were also invited to attend the passing out parade at the Pakistan Military Academy in Kakul.

‘The offer to open channels with the Pakistan Army had come from them,’ says Sawhney

At the government level, even the National Security Advisory Board is believed to have advised opening direct links with Pakistan’s Army. “A dialogue with Pakistan military will help India, both in understanding the military’s viewpoint and getting its own across directly,” said the conclusions of a report that discussed dealing with an unstable Pakistan.

Noted defence expert Pravin Sawhney says vibes to open channels with the Pakistan Army had originally come from them.

I am not surprised that it came from them or this maybe an obfuscation. Pakistan is currently at its weakest state ever. They are overstretched. This is probably one of the biggest reasons for reciprocation in talks.

One the US military invited Indian military to the CENTCOM command the Pakistan army knew that game was up.
Once Indian army does training with CENTCOM force then all the advantage of PA is reduced. This is one of the main reason the PA is hedging its bet by creating reciprocal channel to Indian Army.

Indian military has to separate internally its engagement with PA into a separate group and all other engagement with CENTCOM with separate Military command.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2011 02:07

Pakistan has a provisional electoral roll of 80,547,743 voters.
(http://www.thefridaytimes.com/18032011/page8b.shtml)
and a population of 187,342,721 (July 2011 est.)
(https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/pk.html)
for a voter registration rate of 43%.

(As a benchmark, India 2004 was 64%).

Meanwhile, elsewhere
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/18032011/page6.shtml

The ECP says that over 37 million voters registered in the electoral register compiled in 2007 were either 'duplicated, multiple or bogus entries'

So - I wonder if there is an electoral roll problem only, or whether Pakistan's population is greatly overstated, also.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Mar 2011 02:21

A_Gupta wrote:Pakistan has a provisional electoral roll of 80,547,743 voters.
(http://www.thefridaytimes.com/18032011/page8b.shtml)
and a population of 187,342,721 (July 2011 est.)
(https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/pk.html)
(

With Poakfully calculated economic numbers of 161 Billion and population of 187 Million, The Poak capita income is 860$ a year.If we apply the Hakim Shiv's formula of income distribution in Poakland , the inequality must be staggering. Are they gonna be ripe for picking in few years? When India crosses 4 Trillion mark in 2017 , they will be reduced to equal of 2 weeks and one major festival of Indian GDP.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Mar 2011 02:52

A_Gupta wrote:So - I wonder if there is an electoral roll problem only, or whether Pakistan's population is greatly overstated, also.

No problem here. Pakistan's average age is ~20 years, so a lot of them are underaged children. By comparison, India's average age is ~26 years.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 20 Mar 2011 05:03

Demographic makeup usually determines which direction a country heads. This has been true since ancient times. A nation with young and growing population usually embarked upon military adventures. Usually to acquire resources for the growing population and land space to settle the same growing population. It was true during the times of the Median/Persian empires of classical age. It was also true during the times of Revolutionary France. True in the case of Imperial Germany. When you have late teen and early twenty population that is very large and growing.....you end up dreaming of conquests.

Pakistan has a huge and growing young male population in the 16-24 age group. Impose on these the repressive Islamic ideology and seperate them from fraternizing with females and all you have is an aggressive and wild beasts. That is why there is no shortage of cannon fodders for the assorted jihadi outfits and tools for the military's shennanigans.

China, in a few years from now will have no stomach for warfare because the median population make up is getting older. Iran is a dying nation as far as the Aryan Persian population is concerned. Right now they comprise about half the population of Iran and dropping with the non persian speaking especially the Turkic speakers fast expanding. Thus Iranians want the nuke for security.

Pakistan is a not just a threat but a growing threat. Today just part of that nation is suicidal. Preety soon the whole nation will turn suicidal and at that point in time they would take as much as "others" with them as they blow themselves up into smitherens. That must be checked.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 20 Mar 2011 05:22

shyamd wrote:
Finally, New Delhi realises the importance of engaging with the real power in Pakistan: its army, reports IFTIKHAR GILANI

I am not surprised that it came from them or this maybe an obfuscation. Pakistan is currently at its weakest state ever. They are overstretched. This is probably one of the biggest reasons for reciprocation in talks.

Obfuscation it is! Someone with an IQ of a squirrel would know it is Paki army that has held all the strings post Jinnah, so why this new eureka moment? I, for one am not comfortable with the idea of our senior retired military officials hop-bobbing with Pindi generals. We all know there's nothing positive about such a dialogue. Paki military's entire existence depends on their hatred for India, it is their bread and butter strategy. Why a military-military dialogue to defuse tensions when our babudom's only idea of retaliation is to throw some more paper towards pindi ? Tensions ? What tensions?!

partha · Post by **partha** » 20 Mar 2011 05:28

shyamd wrote:Wah wah. Actually Iftikhar, yindu's realised this post 26/11. Talks with civil leaders are just for show.

And now, track-II with the generals

Finally, New Delhi realises the importance of engaging with the real power in Pakistan: its army, reports IFTIKHAR GILANI

LAMENTING INDIA’S handicapped Pakistan policy, a top official in the security establishment once linked it with the lack of diplomatic access to Pakistan’s nerve centre — the Pakistan Army. He joked that only Kashmiri separatists and Americans have penetration and communication with GHQ in Rawalpindi, the decision-making centre.

The public got a glimpse of this gap in diplomacy after the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, when Pakistan’s political leadership backed out from sending its Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) chief to New Delhi and later nearly created a war-like hysteria over a mysterious telephone call to President Asif Ali Zardari’s office when foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi was still at the Taj Hotel in Delhi. Fearing an attack, a special Pakistan Air Force plane landed at Delhi early in the morning to evacuate the minister.

It now seems India has hit on the right formula. Officially, India may still vow to have struck a chord with the democratically elected government in Pakistan. But for the sake of sustaining the formal diplomatic engagement beginning on 28 March with the meeting of home secretaries, the government is believed to have succeeded in building a direct channel with the Pakistan Army.

Holding up the dialogue process in the aftermath of 26/11 was no doubt an expression of anger, but even more, it was an attempt to seek a credible guarantee from the Pakistan Army to put an end to terrorist activities against India as committed by General Pervez Musharraf in a joint statement he signed with Atal Bihari Vajpayee on 6 January 2004 in Islamabad.

Reports from Islamabad suggest that Indian High Commissioner Sharat Sabharwal had met Pakistan Army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani ahead of foreign secretaries of both countries agreeing on the resumption of talks in Thimpu last month. Reports say these engagements have continued in recent times as well, as home secretaries are slated to discuss India’s request to interrogate Lashkar-e- Toiba main accused in the 26/11 attacks.

Powerful ISI chief Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha has also met representatives of the Indian armed forces posted in the High Commission in Islamabad and is believed to have conveyed to them that India needs to talk directly with the Pakistan Army. Earlier, Pasha had attended an iftar party thrown by the Indian High Commissioner for the first time. The ISI had also hosted farewell parties for some Indian defence advisers who were returning after completing their tenures in Islamabad.

Over the past few months, Indian defence advisers were also invited to attend the passing out parade at the Pakistan Military Academy in Kakul.

‘The offer to open channels with the Pakistan Army had come from them,’ says Sawhney

On its part, the Indian establishment has reciprocated by inviting the head of the National Defence University in Islamabad. India also invited the Pakistan High Commissioner to address its military officers at the National Defence Academy.

SUSHANT SAREEN, a key Pakistan expert at India’s premier strategic think-tank Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), believes only a credible engagement with Pakistan’s military will bring peace in the region. He even ridicules dependence on the civil society of Pakistan for raising a constituency of peace. According to Sareen, what goes as civil society in Pakistan is really a fringe group of around 1,000 people, which, if one is very charitable, can be raised to 5,000.

“The manner in which the progress made on the people-to-people front between 2004 and 2008 was practically overnight reduced to nothing after the 26/11 terrorist strike in Mumbai should be proof enough that when it comes to India-Pakistan relations, people tend to follow the line set by their establishments. In other words, people-to-people relations flower when the establishment allows them, and they wither away when the establishment shuts the door on them,” says Sareen.

At the government level, even the National Security Advisory Board is believed to have advised opening direct links with Pakistan’s Army. “A dialogue with Pakistan military will help India, both in understanding the military’s viewpoint and getting its own across directly,” said the conclusions of a report that discussed dealing with an unstable Pakistan.

Cordiality Indian envoy S Sabharwal with Pakistan interior minister Malik

PHOTO: AP

Even as director generals of military operations (DGMOS) of both countries do talk almost every Tuesday, PK Upadhyay, a consultant at IDSA, suggests that it could be extended to the military intelligence directorates and the army headquarters of both countries. However, he is sceptical of overburdening the Indian military with such engagements, fearing it would lead to an undue interference of the military into political and diplomatic matters. “If the nation is there, security and defence are needed, but if the nation is reduced to a jail under some grotesque concepts and concerns for security and defence, let Pakistan have that concept of nationhood for as long as it can sustain it,” he says.

Noted defence expert Pravin Sawhney says vibes to open channels with the Pakistan Army had originally come from them. ISI chief Pasha, a former DGMO, had actually reportedly suggested this approach in 2009 to the Indian military adviser in Islamabad. He also reminded that back-channel talks that benefited meaningful progress on Kashmir between 2004-07 were conducted under President Musharraf, who was also a military chief.

“Not talking with the Pakistan Army is tantamount to ignoring ground realities; the urgent need for both is to pick up the threads from earlier talks and start arms control negotiations under the MOU signed with the Lahore Declaration of 21 February 1999,” says Sawhney.

Dispelling the impression that such an approach will increase the role of the Indian Army in political affairs, Sawhney is confident that such demand will not come from the military leadership, which is disciplined and rooted in the idea of democracy. “Perhaps, they are not even capable of matching the Pakistan Army leadership’s strategic insights,” he adds.

Of course, there is a consensus in India that foreign policy is led by the executive and the army does not interfere in decision- making. So engaging with the generals across the border can merely be one more arrow in the strategic quiver.
I am not surprised that it came from them or this maybe an obfuscation. Pakistan is currently at its weakest state ever. They are overstretched. This is probably one of the biggest reasons for reciprocation in talks.

Get ready for some liberal outrage about how India is weakening age old democracy in Pakistan by talking to the army.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 20 Mar 2011 05:31

Acharya wrote: One the US military invited Indian military to the CENTCOM command the Pakistan army knew that game was up.
Once Indian army does training with CENTCOM force then all the advantage of PA is reduced. This is one of the main reason the PA is hedging its bet by creating reciprocal channel to Indian Army.

Indian military has to separate internally its engagement with PA into a separate group and all other engagement with CENTCOM with separate Military command.

It's surprising that even the most anti-US spokesperson keep CENTCOM on such pedestal.
Training with CENTCOM would be more beneficial to CENTCOM than to Indian Army.

Indian Army has much better experience in fighting South Asian wars and militancy than CENTCOM would ever have, and it's in Unkil's interest that they take training with IA to fine tune their Land, jungle and mountain warfare capabilities.

OTOH, US F-16s matched against Indian fighters can be more beneficial to IAF and overall preparedness.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 Mar 2011 06:08

Why can't our civil leadership talk to the paki military? Why are the pakis demanding to speak to the Indain military? Surely, they know the power in India lies with the civilian leadership

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2011 06:26

putnanja wrote:Why can't our civil leadership talk to the paki military? Why are the pakis demanding to speak to the Indain military? Surely, they know the power in India lies with the civilian leadership

Good point. I have read about this before.

The Pakis military are widely known to be contemptuous of civilian politicians and for them it is loss of echandee to treat their own civilian politicos like scum while negotiating with civilians from India. They may say "We will talk only military to military". I think it was Johann who pointed out that the US handles this well by sending out a military rep to talk to the Pak military, but the military in the US is perhaps more involved in decision making than in India. The Indian military-civilian relationship is more like the British model. The American model is AFAIK quite different and does not really apply despite using the worn "democracy". Pakistan as a de facto military dictatorship is no democracy.

The problem as I see it is as follows.

If Indian civilian leadership talks to Paki civilians the latter (Pakis) have no power, It is chai-biskoot onlee
If the Indian military talk to Paki military - the Indian military have no policy making or policy changing power. It will be chai-biskoot
The Paki military should talk to Indian civilian leadership. They both have the power required - but the Paki military are actually (stated to be) afraid of the Indian civilian leadership and mistrust them. They also find it easier to avoid direct talks and implement their own anti-India policies while hiding behind the burqa of civilian leadership in Pakistan.

I think we are only looking at a new variety of chai biskoot.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 20 Mar 2011 06:31

At the end of the day, India is trying its hand with the TSPA. There is no point dealing with people who are not the real decision makers (civil govt). So we are trying to improve our relations with the TSPA, who call the shots and launch terror strikes against us.

We are doing some CBM and at the same time we are explaining that Yindu's are peace loving.

We've never really tried this method as far as I am aware. Lets give it a try.

To be honest, the only reaason why this is happening now is because TSPA is at its weakest state so they are taking us into confidence as much as we are reciprocating.