India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

[Theo_Fidel]

IIRC Homi Bhabha himself projected 45,000-60,000 MWh of capacity by 2000. I think it was supposed to have been 20,000 MWh by 1985. The AEC went one step further and predicted 80,000MWh-100,000MWh by year 2000. Back in the day, our school text books were full of such rosy predictions. In retrospect all of them knew this was quite impossible, esp. with the technical challenges in our way. Yet they were listened to unquestioningly.

Reality has been quite a shock.

[Sanku]

imported ore under the civilian program can not be sent to a mil facility.

Why would India import ore under the civilian programme and send it to a military facility?

Prior to the nuclear deal, which countries sold India Uranium ore for use in the nuclear weapons programme?

According to critics of the nuclear deal, there would be IAEA inspectors all over India by now. India would be unable to build nuclear weapons. India would be unable to test nuclear weapons. All of these fears were unfounded.

Political propaganda.

Err, this entire stream of thought should be asked to gakakkad, who made the claim?

I if you see, am saying exactly what you have said.

[Sanku]

in fact unofficially Man mohan made the DAE forsake testing as well

By Man mohan, I assume you mean the PM of India.

This concern for further testing is interesting given the anti-nuclear power stand.
Rather illogical. Unless all the ranting is political. And this is not a place for political discussions.

'

Err what!!

Who is anti-nuclear power?

And any way what does being pro weapon testing have to do with a stance on civilian use of nuclear power? NPPs can exist with or without weapon programs, and weapon programs can run with or without a NPP focus.

There is no correlation.

[Sanku]

Sankuji,
When you twist facts to suit a belief, people immediately start to doubt just about everything you say.
Consider this for example:

You have not considered budgetary allocations for the program. Please list the budgets of DAE over last 10 years and then we will talk.

If you wont I will, it will take some time to pull out that data, but I will.

Then are we subsidizing the western submarine industry? The Russian helicopter industry? French fighter industry.?
You will find this happening in every business - from the lowest-tech to highest

Obviously we are, and there is a crying need to fix our defence aquisition as well.

Just because we are bad some where, we need to be bad everywhere. In fact become bad in places we were not before.

. When my mom cannot make idlis and cononut chutney ( my favourite ) when we have guests, we buy from the local restaurant - else you will find people going hungry. It is not that she cannot make idlis - it is because she has other bigger priorities for the day.

Irrelevant comparison. The nation is not a unit kitchen, multiple priorities are handled in parallel.

[Sanku]

Sanku maharaj why does NFC being under safeguards bother you ? You see moment the maal comes to NFC it means it is meant for making fuel bundles what goes into the stuff which we don't want IEAE to see will never come to NFC in the first place.

Well I didnt say it bothered me, I only pointed out the error in what gakakkad was claiming.

However just to note not all of NFC is undersafeguards, only a part of it is. Obviously if you have IAEA inspectors in a guarded facility next to a unguarded one, any one will be concerned.

[gakakkad]

IIRC Homi Bhabha himself projected 45,000-60,000 MWh of capacity by 2000. I think it was supposed to have been 20,000 MWh by 1985. The AEC went one step further and predicted 80,000MWh-100,000MWh by year 2000. Back in the day, our school text books were full of such rosy predictions. In retrospect all of them knew this was quite impossible, esp. with the technical challenges in our way. Yet they were listened to unquestioningly.

Reality has been quite a shock.

Bhabha said this in the 60s .. Had GOI framed proper economic policies , foreign policies etc , than the goal would have been achievable ...Reason for its failure is that it was not taken seriously..The french and others achieved this capacity because they started in 60s.. if they could , we surely could have...We did not because our economy was not growing well then...people were leaving the country for better prospects abroad..foreign policy was all messed up ,that resulted in all the technology denial regimes ...even if we had the reactors they would have found no use till the 90s because no one had money or use to buy electricity..most appliances had 300% import duty and in those days nothing was manufactured in India ....

It was not the failure of nuclear energy , but the failure of nation as whole..It was not the only failure ...nor was it the worst failure...It was in a way a success..because no country with similar degree of poverty achieved anything of that sort...And it was no fault of Bhabha that the goal was not achieved..

Reason why things are difficult now are again more to do with social ,political and other reasons rather than technical...

[Amber G.]

A blast from the past ... some posts are timeless and as valid as now ..(posted by Somnath an year ago..)

An imagined conversation of our born again greens/original uber nationalists...

Anti-imperialists: Fukushima, wow - 100000000000000 deaths - all LWRs bad - we shouldnt buy from the satan...

NPA: Yes, yes, I told you so! Good job - spread the awareness in India how bad Fukushima is, and how 10000000000000000 deaths are expected...

NPA: And yes, BTW, what about your PHWRS? not even under "safeguards"! Horror, must be death traps for 100000000000000000000 lives..

A/I: Umm, ah, yes, but our PHWRs are safe through divine intervention...

But NPAs are largely athiests (or believers of immaculate conception, so hindu divinity does not gell with them)...

A/I: Ah ok, we should do a safety audit just to "show" them, concurrently, we will shut down all proposed projects...Serves our purpose of not buying from satan..

NPA: yes, while you do that, what about your weapons facilities? Those nasty little things you have in Tarapur, Kalpakkam and that small place with a funny name called "Iyer village"? They are not even under your own (poodle) regulator, AERB!? Horror^100000000000000.....Shut them down, now...

[Amber G.]

i used it as mw..theo said that someone claimed to power 100k mw by 2000...in that context..

Well your Unit was wrong then. Should have been explicit.

In my opinion, there was NO wrong unit . There is a huge difference between using a wrong unit (which almost always happens as a result of ignorance - specially if used consistently - and less often due to a typo) and lack of an unit (when intent is clear -which is almost always due to laziness or a typo)

This is why, for example, in some of the examples I have shown, uses of wrong units, specially combined with some absurd calculations, were attributed to ignorance, and these errors have been noticed quite widely by many, including by people outside brf and literally been compared with madaras-e-math. It has brought disrepute to brf and the said poster.

Hope this helps.

[Amber G.]

IIRC Homi Bhabha himself projected 45,000-60,000 MWh of capacity by 2000. I think it was supposed to have been 20,000 MWh by 1985. The AEC went one step further and predicted 80,000MWh-100,000MWh by year 2000. Back in the day, our school text books were full of such rosy predictions. In retrospect all of them knew this was quite impossible, esp. with the technical challenges in our way. Yet they were listened to unquestioningly.

Reality has been quite a shock.

I don't know which text book(s) are you talking about. To be honest, my textbooks always had technical things and no text book I can recall, had any 'rosy predictions'.

In any case, I am sure that Bhabha would have known the difference between power (which is measured in Watts) and Energy (which is measured in MWh).

[Theo_Fidel]

Ah yes! The foreign national who accused our foreign minister, no less, of colluding with the Taliban during IC814. Such is the poisonous nature of a person speaking of reputation and worrying more about what others think than what the truth is. And supposedly an ex-representative of our research establishment no less, to go along with the ex-citizen of India title. Such accolades. Such accolades.

And to top it all off a post by super comprehension man.. I almost threw up in my cup. Such reputation.

Long since stopped providing even entertainment value. Bye.
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The 'we were not man enough to be French' argument must stop. This is silly. It was not a failure of the nation but a failure of the planners to account for things they did not know or understand. All hope was pinned on the 3 step and Thorium. When it became clear the cycle may not be economically feasible the nation was not informed. Even now with the PFBR quietly moving to a RG Pu-239 cycle, the nation is still not brought into confidence. All is gung-ho only. 4000 GW and all. Sanku has mentioned it but I will stress it, the DAE has received the largest chunk of India's research budget since the 1950's. Often up to 40% of India's entire research budget. To then accuse the nation of being weak and not strong enough to support the DAE is breath taking Chutzpah. But that is apparently par for the course. DAE did not fail only, nation failed onlee. SDRE blah blah blah....

The fact that GOI has panicked and bought foreign reactors should tell you what the planners think of the feasibility of the DAE's plans. Even Bhaba knew the math was against us. There is no shame in trying and failing. But once the establishment realized the 3-step was going no where the nation should have been told. We should have acknowledged the failure and abandoned the directions that were not working. But no such luck.....
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WRT the campaign guidelines, any facility processing more than 60 kg of material, whether civil or military will be subject to full surprise IAEA inspections. I pointed out this snafu earlier. No way GOI allows surprise inspections of a military facility just to reprocess fuel. Ergo that particular option is of academic interest only. New dedicated civilian reprocessing facility will be required.
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The 123 was the best we could get at this stage of our development. It however created a second class seat for us. Now second class is better than no class but still it rankles for some of us. At some point we will have to widen the table to give us full seat. But there was definitely quid pro quo's that are coming due. These unfortunate IOU's cause takleef.
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To put some perspective on the DAE budget let us track it for the last 15 years. Compare it to RE investment chart in Crores. BTW military budget is separate and a closed item.


It is hard to believe this staggering amount of sacrifice and investment, Wind+Solar produce more the Nuclear. Not just more some thing like 2.5 times more. We have invested $15 Billion in the last 15 years alone in the DAE. Without opportunity cost. If you take the investment back to 1960's the opportunity costs have been staggering.

[chaanakya]

i used it as mw..theo said that someone claimed to power 100k mw by 2000...in that context..

Well your Unit was wrong then. Should have been explicit.

In my opinion, there was NO wrong unit . There is a huge difference between using a wrong unit (which almost always happens as a result of ignorance - specially if used consistently - and less often due to a typo) and lack of an unit (when intent is clear -which is almost always due to laziness or a typo)

This is why, for example, in some of the examples I have shown, uses of wrong units, specially combined with some absurd calculations, were attributed to ignorance, and these errors have been noticed quite widely by many, including by people outside brf and literally been compared with madaras-e-math. It has brought disrepute to brf and the said poster.

Hope this helps.

gakakkad ji , you passed but examiner pronounced you lazy.

[gakakkad]

The 'we were not man enough to be French' argument must stop. This is silly. It was not a failure of the nation but a failure of the planners to account for things they did not know or understand. All hope was pinned on the 3 step and Thorium. When it became clear the cycle may not be economically feasible the nation was not informed.

I implied , that the politicians and babus failed .. It was not a 'we were not man enough to be French' .. This whole argument of yours is an open fly torn shirt type one... We had spent a huge sum of money for literacy , healthcare etc..but the improvement from 1950 to 1990 was not impressive..That did not mean that we stopped spending on it...


The figures of the amount of money spent on renewable are incorrect in the above graph.. 1 don't believe the figure of 1500 crore for last year...

we spent 10 billion on RENEWABLE ENERGY LAST YEAR.




W.r.t DAE ,running of reactors is not the only thing it does ...A lot the funding goes to other things like basics science research etc..here is the total allocaton of DAE...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=in

NET , India spends 5 times more on renewable than on entire DAE...

Here is a complete presentation

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/90181617

page 41 is India ..india spends 10 billion dollars ..close to 50K crore INR.

Kindly donot post false statistics...

[chaanakya]

Bhabha said this in the 60s .. Had GOI framed proper economic policies , foreign policies etc , than the goal would have been achievable ...Reason for its failure is that it was not taken seriously..The french and others achieved this capacity because they started in 60s.. if they could , we surely could have...We did not because our economy was not growing well then...people were leaving the country for better prospects abroad..foreign policy was all messed up ,that resulted in all the technology denial regimes ...even if we had the reactors they would have found no use till the 90s because no one had money or use to buy electricity..most appliances had 300% import duty and in those days nothing was manufactured in India ....

It was not the failure of nuclear energy , but the failure of nation as whole..It was not the only failure ...nor was it the worst failure...It was in a way a success..because no country with similar degree of poverty achieved anything of that sort...And it was no fault of Bhabha that the goal was not achieved..

Reason why things are difficult now are again more to do with social ,political and other reasons rather than technical...

Seriously, now you are blaming GOI and the Nation itself. I am sure Nation has always supported indegenous research and provided agequate support. As matter stands Policies are drafted by respective Dept and in this case means DAE and AEC.
Given the resources available, major resources were made available to it.

Well some are pontificating now, on this very forum

[gakakkad]

Seriously, now you are blaming GOI and the Nation itself. I am sure Nation has always supported indegenous research and provided agequate support.

it has been widely discussed throughout the forum , that pre-1990 economic policy was pathetic and it left the nation impoverished..nothing new in that...whatever little money that was allotted to DAE has been well spent by the scientists and DAE has been amongst the more successful of the government agencies ...that it could not be more successful was because India had several constraints.. many of which were self imposed ...

[Philip]

Though a bitter critic of Dr.Singh and his peddling of "snake-oil",the N-deal as a panacaea for all our ills,in retrospect,the "secret" promises that he gave the US of A,have sensationally backfired upon them and he has unintentionally done us a favour.The promise of buying loads of defence hardware including the MMRCA deal,a "dozen Westinghouse reactors", et al,have capsized.Fate decreed that in both cases his obeisance and servility to the US would come undone.First,Parliament punctured the N-deal to its heart on the N-liability issue,where the US suppliers were hoping for another Bhopal style limited liability clause.To add to Uncle Sam's outrage,"The Saint" then double-crossed the gunslinger by doing the can-can with the French! However,the US has not lost hope and is desperately trying to cobble the Cong/UPA together so that it can deliver on its promises as it fears that once the "mendicant" is gone from scene-he still has presidential ambitions,his successor will be the least interested in delivering the goods.A century of N-fuel supplies and billions upon billions in selling N-plants are at stake.

Watch the current Cong. turmoil/resignations/reshuffle carefully,the Pres. election and events at KKM carefully.Mischief is still afoot.

[chaanakya]

^^ G

Total outlay for Renewable Energy Ministry is Rs 2954 Cr( 2011-12).
It is only during 2012-13 Budget is Rs 3355 Cr
http://content.indiainfoline.com/wc/bud ... /bag42.pdf

Investment in RE is not driven by GOI except for policies. It is mainly driven by Private Sector. Hence your figure indicates that , however I am not sure it is correct. Needs to be verified.

Budget of DAE for 2012-13 is Rs 11673Cr
In case of DAE, entire expenditure is met by GOI and there is no private sector investment for Nation as a whole and GOI in particular attached nationa importance to this programme since it was more related to Nation's security rather than electricity. Achieving Nuclear deterence is more important.

The Atomic Energy Act, 1962 allows the Central Government to produce, develop, use and dispose of atomic energy either by itself or through any authority or corporation established by it or a Government Company.

In respect of RE there is no such Act Passed by Parl. Such is the importance given by Nation to AE.

[gakakkad]

Well There are plenty of sources that give 10 billion figure..whether GOI directly spends the money , or Suzlon builds a windmill on government contract and sells the electricity is the same thing..fact remains that India spent 10 billion last year...

[chaanakya]

Seriously, now you are blaming GOI and the Nation itself. I am sure Nation has always supported indegenous research and provided agequate support.

it has been widely discussed throughout the forum , that pre-1990 economic policy was pathetic and it left the nation impoverished..nothing new in that...whatever little money that was allotted to DAE has been well spent by the scientists and DAE has been amongst the more successful of the government agencies ...that it could not be more successful was because India had several constraints.. many of which were self imposed ...

You are unaware of the priorities that drove the Nation /GOI to adopt the policies in early sixties and 70s.You would do well to remember that Country embarked on Industrialisation and increase in Agricultural output to feed the nation when Private sector was almost non existent. You can not compare todays situation with those in sixties and seventies.The most successul was Harit Kranti which fed millions and continue to feed .

[gakakkad]

India Clean-Energy Investments Reach $10.3 Billion in 2011: BNEF

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-0 ... -bnef.html

[gakakkad]

>>You are unaware of the priorities that drove the Nation /GOI to adopt the policies in early sixties and 70s.You would do well to remember that Country embarked on Industrialisation and increase in Agricultural output to feed the nation when Private sector was almost non existent. You can not compare todays situation with those in sixties and seventies.The most successul was Harit Kranti which fed millions and continue to feed .


In spite of the green revolution , India has amongst the lowest yield per hectare in the world..In spite of public sector industrialization , a large part of country was backward in those days ... Absence of private sector reduced the gdp over all ...And its absence was only ideological..


more about 10.3 billion on renewable energy..
http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/vie ... t-in-2011/

[chaanakya]

In spite of the green revolution , India has amongst the lowest yield per hectare in the world..In spite of public sector industrialization , a large part of country was backward in those days ... Absence of private sector reduced the gdp over all ...And its absence was only ideological..


more about 10.3 billion on renewable energy..
http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/vie ... t-in-2011/

It still fed Millions.
And India was starting out in Industrialisation from Zero thanks to the Bitish. So it was no mean achievement.

And if your source is correct on RE then I am happy that Private Sector has put its faith in RE. May they achieve thunderous success.

[chaanakya]

India Clean-Energy Investments Reach $10.3 Billion in 2011: BNEF

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-0 ... -bnef.html

Does it include Nuclear Enregy as many here have been claiming NE as Clean or Only RE??????

[gakakkad]

^ it is correct..use g-chacha...

here are the details...great presentation...

http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/ ... 202012.pdf

if nuclear is open to private players , than we can expect rapid increase in npp tech...

Does it include Nuclear Enregy as many here have been claiming NE as Clean or Only RE??????

npp is not yet included in renewable..see above presentation for details..

[chaanakya]

.A century of N-fuel supplies and billions upon billions in selling N-plants are at stake.

Watch the current Cong. turmoil/resignations/reshuffle carefully,the Pres. election and events at KKM carefully.Mischief is still afoot.

No doubt , that is why certain posters are going bananas over the Nuclear discussions

[vina]

The most successul was Harit Kranti which fed millions and continue to feed

Oh. So let us see how it was done . Irrigation, hybrid seeds, chemical fertilizers and pesticides. All of that increased productivity such that though prices feel in real terms (yes.. adjust for inflation , rice and wheat and most agri produce are CHEAPER today than at the start of the Green Revolution) , costs fell faster due to increasing productivity (which tapered off at least).

Now if you go by today's conventional logic of "chemicals" (ouch).. no GM seeds (err. don't you tinker with plant genetics when you hybridize ?), no pesticides and "fully" organic, well, guess what, this country will still be starving.

In the power and energy sector today, Nuclear energy is the equivalent of the Irrigation, Hybrid Seeds, Chemical Fertilizer and Pesticides that brought about the Green Revolution. If you follow today's 'eeks' conventinal wisdom (whizz dumb ?) of today's cool aid of "renewables" , it will be like trying to create a green revolution with " fully organic" practices . It will be an miserable failure.

If the Green Revolution liberated India from Food imports and dependency, Nuclear power will liberate India from Energy Imports and dependency forever. The mix of Nuclear + renewables is unavoidable however you slice and dice it.

Think of it today. I would rate the invention of the Haber-Bosch Process , though first commercialized to create Nitrates for munitions for Germany in WW-I (the British had locked up all the supplies of salt peter in the world, coming principally out of Chile) as one of the greatest inventions of mankind , allowing it to feed an expanding population. Without that, much of the world today would be starving . In fact close to 2% of all the energy produced in the world goes towards solely this process ! If Green Nutters and their Whizz Dumb had their way, the Haber process would be stopped and the world will starve.

Need to get things in perspective before ranting off against something with little knowledge , but lot of indoctrination and doped up make believe.

[gakakkad]

If Green Nutters and their Whizz Dumb had their way, the Haber process would be stopped and the world will starve.

Interesting you should mention Habers process.. The greens are proposing a hydrogen based economy .. Most of the commercial hydrogen goes towards the Habers process..presently most of hydrogen comes from ch4 ..if npps can be designed to produce cheap hydrogen , like the design I posted b4 ,than imagine the reduction in carbon foot print.. (nishan e pair )

[Sanku]

no GM seeds (err. don't you tinker with plant genetics when you hybridize ?), .

vina, most of your posts are increasing characterized by blatantly wrong science points. First you had a bout of dijnn phyiscs (1600 m/s == 1900 m/s)in the Armor thread, now you are equating hybrid plant creation with Genetically modified plants.

If you dont know the differences, its ok, but kindly dont make whole huge posts peppers with such basic and horribly ignorant statements.

I would strongly encourage you to learn the difference between hybrid plants (or animals) and genetic modification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food

Genetically modified foods' are foods derived from genetically modified organisms (GMOs). Genetically modified organisms have had specific changes introduced into their DNA by genetic engineering techniques.

Other techniques by which humans modify food organisms include selective breeding; plant breeding, and animal breeding, and somaclonal variation.

Please learn the differences, this equalities is becoming a serious disease these days.

Need to get things in perspective before ranting off against something with little knowledge , but lot of indoctrination and doped up make believe.

That is true, Vina, and it applies squarely to you.

[chaanakya]

If the Green Revolution liberated India from Food imports and dependency, Nuclear power will liberate India from Energy Imports and dependency forever. .

self del

[Sanku]

If the Green Revolution liberated India from Food imports and dependency, Nuclear power will liberate India from Energy Imports and dependency forever. .

Unless you import Nuclear Reactors and Fuels for LWR Nuclear energy with indegenous resources at current level of dev would not cross 10 GW that if India is unable to achieve breakthrough in FBR and third stage. 20 GW and abpve is continegent upon import tied up for life. So much for import independence. CO2 argument peddled by many green nutters in disguise here in support of NE are , well , nutty only. And howsoever we see it ,it would be a hard act to achieve 20% NE in Energy Mix notwithstanding ideological goatdroppings by many. GOI doesn't have plan to cross even 10% by 2050.

Chaankya, you dont have to reply to that statement, it is absolutely uninformed ignorant rubbish of the type

GM food == hybrid food

Green revolution == Nuclear

The lack of any insight is staggering, the inability to distinguish between different types of Nuclear energy is also fantastic. This is pure political rhetoric of the type Congress and Man mohan spun out during 123, There is no reality here.

[chaanakya]

So let us see how it was done . Irrigation, hybrid seeds, chemical fertilizers and pesticides. All of that increased productivity such that though prices feel in real terms (yes.. adjust for inflation , rice and wheat and most agri produce are CHEAPER today than at the start of the Green Revolution) , costs fell faster due to increasing productivity (which tapered off at least).

Now if you go by today's conventional logic of "chemicals" (ouch).. no GM seeds (err. don't you tinker with plant genetics when you hybridize ?), no pesticides and "fully" organic, well, guess what, this country will still be starving.
.

Well I don't know exactly what you imply here. Green revolution was not at all due to GM seeds. I don't know how Hybrid variety , which is a acontrolled cross pollinated variet , is equal to Genetically modified seed , which is transgenic.

[vina]

Well I don't know exactly what you imply here. Green revolution was not at all due to GM seeds. I don't know how Hybrid variety , which is a acontrolled cross pollinated variet , is equal to Genetically modified seed , which is transgenic.

Well, hybrids too are a form of "Genetic Engineering" , right from producing a Dachshund to a Labrador Retriever to a St Bernard to a Shi Zhu to a Pekinese are all results of selective breeding to accentuate desired traits and attenuate others and right at the genetic level. They are not "natural" in any sense. Same with all the major agricultural plants today.. right from the rice and wheat and any other grain to a fruit such as a mango (say an Alphonso.. that is a carefully selected hybrid plant).. Think of it. A yellow rose or white rose wont exist in today without the active act of man.. maybe the rose itself wouldn't in it's present form. same with jasmine, dahlia, etc...This is pure genetic engineering at the deepest level whether you like it or not.

Also, I noticed that Sanku Maharaj Ji Harrumphed here again with his "logic" and Knowlijj..

Well, if it is of any comfort to you and the esteemed Maharaj, chew on this fact. Upwards of HALF of all the nitrogen in your body in any form (protiens, enzymes, muscle, tissue, bones, amino acids..) all came from SYNTHETIC sources. The jaagtha-phirta-ghoota Sanku Maharji Ji and you and of course your's truly are mostly SYNTHETIC thanks to Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch. Chew on it and you might see the light and get some wisdom leaving behind the Whizz-Dumb.

[Sanku]

Well, hybrids too are a form of "Genetic Engineering"

Yes and dying is a form of living, slavery is freedom and war is peace.

Wow.

I wonder what such "cow is a form of human since they are both animals" is a form of.

==============

PS > I forgot 1600 m/s is a form of 1900 m/s. Since they are both a form of m/s.

Unbelievable, the chupatz with which ignorance and murder of science is made a virtue.

[vina]

I wonder what such "cow is a form of human since they are both animals" is a form of.

Well, since you asked, if you do go back, all mammals, descended from a common ancestor.. And yes.. That is why you have five fingers and five toes, just like most other animals (including the cow .. if you look deeply inside you can see the vestiges of 5 fingers) , because we all share the same ancestor. At a deeply genetic level, the genes that are distinctly human are less than 1 to 2 % of all the genes we have! You should ask Gakkad and other more medical folks on this, they will have deeper insights.

In fact, you share a lot more with a cow than you can could admit. Get diabetes and need insulin.. well, common sources until recently were from a pig or a cow! Need vital enzymes and proteins and stuff that are vital (like Heparin ), where do you get them from ? You cant get those kind of things from plants.

So what will you do with genetically engineered insulins and other proteins where you make yeasts and other stuff produce proteins which they would never produce. Insulin is insulin. Whether you get it from a cow or human or a clever geneticist makes a yeast produce it. Are the green nutters going to object to being prescribed genetically engineered human insulin, esp when most folks in this country would object to a pig or a cow be slaughtered to get insulin?

Like I said, you need to let go of the Whizz-Dumb.

==============

PS > I forgot 1600 m/s is a form of 1900 m/s. Since they are both a form of m/s.

Unbelievable, the chupatz with which ignorance and murder of science is made a virtue.

It is Chutzpah! If you dont know the word, dont use it! Hmm.. talking of which, weren't you the one that needed mother earth to have different gravitational constants for different objects for your pet theses to work ? Oh.. and i forget about moment of inertia calculations of a nylon band and the rotational kinetic energy.. Like I said, you indeed do have a lot of Whizz-Dumb. Lose it.

[Sanku]

I give up Sir. Cow is a form of human. GM is a form of Hybrid food.

Lying is a form of telling the truth.

Jai ho.

[vina]

I give up Sir. Cow is a form of human. GM is a form of Hybrid food.

Lying is a form of telling the truth.

Jai ho.

Indeed. Some more whizz-dumb for you. I checked wiki on insulin and it seems in addition to recombinant DNA , they have now introduced the human insulin gene into sunflower plants to make it produce human insulin! So, since it is "totally vegetarian" now it is also truly "Dharmic" and satisfies all "sensitivities" of all religions.

Quick. Are you and the other green nutters going to ban this ? ..Oops.. so if someone introduces a gene from a fish/mollusc to make a rice produce essential Omega-3 fatty acids..is that "Adharmic" going by your definition ? It seems so.

So, does crossing a carrot with rice to make rice produce beta-carotene (vitamin A) "Dharmic" .it seems so.

Get used to this. It is called progress and mankind has been doing it for millenia ,ever since man appeared on earth.

[Sanku]

As I said, I just can not argue with your great logic which boldly makes a statement of

GM food == hybrid.

And then follows it up with a random rant of unconnected lies attributed to others who have not said it.

Sorry boss, I do not know what your ill informed rant on science is supposed to mean, I would first advise understanding the basics before pontificating about it. Or you can continue ranting. Your choice.

[Sanku]

The basic fact that the verbose obfuscation still can not hide, and all the verbal diaherro was let loose by the takleef or irritation caused by the data point Sanantanan Sir said.

The "no nuclear fuel OMG OMG" canard is now dead.

Yet another "false reason" for 123 stands nailed. Crossly.

Let us see the lies that were used to support 123
1) Will give us status of a nuclear power like American -- lie nailed, check. (Second class IAEA status)
2) We have serious shortage of Indian nuclear ore -- lie nailed check. (As above)
3) We will get advanced nuclear tech -- lie nailed, check. No ENR tech allowed.

And on and on.

Yes, this exposure will cause takleef and will produce such great insights such as "GM == hybrid" but hey, reality is reality. Rants aside.

[gakakkad]

Well, if it is of any comfort to you and the esteemed Maharaj, chew on this fact. Upwards of HALF of all the nitrogen in your body in any form (protiens, enzymes, muscle, tissue, bones, amino acids..) all came from SYNTHETIC sources. The jaagtha-phirta-ghoota Sanku Maharji Ji and you and of course your's truly are mostly SYNTHETIC thanks to Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch. Chew on it and you might see the light and get some wisdom leaving behind the Whizz-Dumb.

Check nukkad .. I have replied...

[Gerard]

Moderator note:

Let us bring this thread back on topic. Trolling has resulted in a warning issued and a 1 month ban for one member.

[gakakkad]

barc press release about alleged security breach..

Mujs might remeber TOIlet paper claiming that BARC security has been breached xyz number of times..BARC issues a clarification..

http://barc.ernet.in/press/