Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Jan 04, 2014

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 17 Apr 2014 17:05

Anujan wrote:I simply dont believe the narrative in Pakistan that Army wants to fight TTP and Civvies are releasing Taliban without consulting PA. This is the biggest pile of Nandi droppings that has ever been sold.

....

This is classical good cop bad cop routine. Please do not read too much into it. TSPA is protecting is H&D by acting tought at the same time civvies are not averse to acting pussy since none want to be goatnapped like that taseer pup

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Apr 2014 19:57

Look at these Paki Motor Hams nonchalantly breaking boards! WOW!

Link

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Apr 2014 20:48

Those are terracotta roof tiles being broken, not boards. This experience helps in breaking into houses from the roof. Check out the houri at far left - the one with a little facial hair.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 17 Apr 2014 21:17

Lal Masjid names library after Osama bin Laden. AoA!

Jamia Hafsa, a religious school for women in the Pakistani capital Islamabad connected to the notorious Lal Masjid has renamed its library in honour of slain al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

It is true that we have named the library after Osama bin Laden

He might be a terrorist for others but we do not consider him as a terrorist. For us he was a hero of Islam.

refers to him as a “martyr”

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Apr 2014 21:47

Here is a list of some cities in Pakistan

Anyone notice anything about the list? Anything that comes to your mind when you read the list?

Peshawar
Quetta
Mardan
Mingora
Kohat
Abbotabad
Khuzdar
Dera Ismail Khan
Nowshera
Charsada
Swabi
Turbat

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Apr 2014 21:56

Hmmm Shiv saar, another trick question.

Nothing came to my mind so I wikied a few of them. All of them seem to have some attachment to a Kabila like structure. Some of them seem to have a distinct Sanskrit origin names.

By the way interesting map on this article (we have to promote that map): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabi

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » 17 Apr 2014 23:06

Both the PA and Taliban (al-Qaeda) are in most, if not all of those villages - cities.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Apr 2014 01:21

New status for TTP?
Whats up Doc?

ON April 4, the prime minister ordered the release of 19 ‘non-combatant’ TTP prisoners. By recognising the non-combatant status of such prisoners the release implicitly recognised the presence of Taliban ‘combatants’ in Pakistan. Later, the National Assembly passed the Protection of Pakistan (Amendment) Bill, 2014 (PPO). This time round, the law has explicitly recognised the category of ‘combatant enemy’. While many in the media have lamented the PPO’s draconian nature, it is the resulting categorisation of TTP as ‘combatant enem[ies]’ which is problematic considering further that negotiations with organised armed groups of non-state actors (NSAs) moves them closer towards attaining the coveted status of belligerents under international law, especially when such militias exercise territorial control.
Therefore, if TTP forces are categorised as enemy combatants, and any violence on their part against Pakistani armed and paramilitary forces and objects or civilian persons and objects is compliant with international humanitarian law (IHL) when conducted in the pursuance of a military advantage and necessity respectively, then under IHL there is a strong argument that TTP forces are immune from criminal prosecution. This would mean that TTP cannot be tried for using lethal force so long as it is complying with IHL norms in the pursuance of a military advantage not just in Fata but also in major urban centres of Pakistan.
Many experts are now arguing that, under the principle of reciprocity, combatant status should be extended to NSAs such as in transnational conflict having a global significance so that such actors come under the ambit of IHL and are adequately pressured to provide protections and privileges to captured state forces and civilians once under their control in return for being extended the same immunities and privileges. The alternate approach to discrediting NSAs is by extending them a differential form of combatant status. This is the US approach, which has argued that Al Qaeda and its close associates — including the Taliban — are ‘Unlawful Enemy Combatants’ (UEC). This categorisation finds little support in pre-existing international law which classifies persons only into two distinct categories: combatants and civilians.This novel classification has since been normatively trotted out in order to deprive fighters of privileges and immunities extended under IHL such as PoW status. By classifying certain NSAs as UEC, the US manages to easily target certain categories of individuals in peacetime situations which it otherwise would find near impossible to justify under conventional IHL.While civilians — as aggressors — can only be targeted under IHL if they are ‘directly participating in hostilities’, combatants can be targeted even if they are ‘actively engaged in hostilities’, even if not using force at the time. This standard for targeting combatants is much broader, not requiring an impending use of force on the part of the person targeted. The US sees itself embroiled in a transnational armed conflict against terrorists thousands of miles away and thus wants to cast as wide a net as possible over the people it wants to target without any jurisdictional limitations, in order to promote what it perceives as furthering its own national interest. Pakistan, however, is not in the same boat and our political establishment should realise this fact. While Pakistan finds itself in a pivotal role in the formation of international law, we need to ask ourselves: are we willing as a society to accept the TTP as a genuine military force which is eligible to be accorded a status reserved for state military institutions?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Apr 2014 01:25

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/17 ... -ganga-ram
The legacy of Sir Ganga Ram

The 163rd birth anniversary of Sir Ganga Ram took place recently — he was born on April 13, 1851 in Mangtanwalla, south of Lahore. Though, with time, many have forgotten him and probably do not know much about him, but in both India and Pakistan there exist his memories, his great vision and efforts still intact in stone. He continues to be remembered and appreciated through his countless works in the service of humanity. Last December, we, Aaghaz-e-Dosti (an Indo-Pak friendship initiative), received an opportunity to invite the chairperson of Sir Ganga Ram Hospital (India), Dr D S Rana as one of our prestigious speakers for a discussion on Indo-Pak peace and friendship. Dr Rana, during his speech, shared the great vision and work of the great philanthropist. He also said that Sir Ganga Ram still lives in the hearts of millions of people in India and Pakistan through these two hospitals in Lahore and Delhi, where they treat all patients equally regardless of any socio-economic identities. He also talked about his experience of visiting Pakistan and the warm welcome that he had received. He said that both the hospitals are in communication with each other. It is great to know how his vision is being shared by the people who manage the hospital today. His vision for the progress of humanity is being served today for not just a more progressive and just society but also to bridge the gap between India and Pakistan. His works, standing as symbols of peace, also remind me of the famous story by Saadat Hasan Manto called ‘The Garland’. The story, which was set against partition-related riots, described how, in violence-hit Lahore, a mob turned to attack the statue of a Hindu philanthropist, Sir Ganga Ram. They first pelted the statue with stones, then smothered its face with coal tar and a man-made garland of old shoes was put around the neck of the statue. The police arrived and opened fire. Among the injured was the fellow with the garland of old shoes. As he fell, the mob shouted, “Take him to Ganga Ram Hospital.”I feel that the memory of Sir Ganga Ram, his vision and his works, which are a part of our shared past can become a connector for a peaceful and more prosperous future. He would not have imagined the separate existence and creation of India and Pakistan because his work and his vision have indirectly tried to bridge the gap between the two countries.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 18 Apr 2014 02:30

Classic quotes from Pakistanis often show us the true nature of the average Pakistani - most of us remember the below quote, post Kasab's conviction...

Kasab's village watches 26-11 judgement on TV

"Look, don't blame him. There is nothing wrong if he did it with good intentions against an infidel country like India," said Amjad Ali, a 60-year-old farmer with white hair.

Now another one Christian girl abducted, converted and forced to marry a Muslim in Lahore

an Islamic cleric involved in the affair said that it was "not illegal to abduct and convert non-Muslims"

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Apr 2014 03:52

http://www.nation.com.pk/national/18-Ap ... tion-depot
Islamic Freedom Fighters attack ammunition depot Of Kufr

Khyber agency: Terrorists have attacked the ammunition depot in Landi Kotal chauni in the dark hours of the night. Exchange of fire taking place between the security forces and miscreants. No causalities reported till now.

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 18 Apr 2014 04:26

Anujan wrote:I simply dont believe the narrative in Pakistan that Army wants to fight TTP and Civvies are releasing Taliban without consulting PA. This is the biggest pile of Nandi droppings that has ever been sold.

When Mush was in power, the Army went and signed peace deals after peace deals (remember Nek Mohammad). This is after several TFTAs were goatnapped. Why didnt they fight TTP then? When Zardari was in power and Kayani was pretty much running the show (Recall that he got Husain Haqqani sacked and pretty much ran the foreign policy), there was no TTP operation. If TFTAs wanted to take on the TTP so badly, why didnt they?

Now the new nandi droppings that the Army wants to fight TTP and civvies wont let them. Take the Mushy trial for example: One statement by Raheel that "Army will protect its honor" and everyone's shalwar is brown, the defence minister is on his way out. You think Nawaz released all those taliban without Army's blessing and overruled their judgement?

It is very simple: TFTAs dont have the balls to take on the TTP. All they can do is hide in their cantonments and say "Oh if only they let us fight, we will teach them a lesson!!". Every Jernail and Kernail knows that the lower rungs dont have any appetite in fighting true muslims and the middle rung is browning their pants and the top rung just wants their plot allotment and a cushy job after retirement. They also want to preserve the yahoos to fight in Afghanistan and in JK. Note that the Saudi ambassador Ali Saeed Asiri is back. He was Saudi Ambassador to Pakistan during the last taliban government in Afghanistan and Pak's nuke tests. So what do you think TFTAs are planning except for Taliban takeover of Afghanistan and terrorism under the nuclear umbrella?

ABV was right. India has an army of Soldiers. Pakistan has an army of electricity meter readers, fertilizer sellers, real estate developers ....

Prolly going to fight TTP and win in Afghanistan like they were going to win Kashmir. Waiting to watch the Afghan Army and assorted allies whip their behinds.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 18 Apr 2014 06:51

shiv wrote:Here is a list of some cities in Pakistan

Anyone notice anything about the list? Anything that comes to your mind when you read the list?

Peshawar
Quetta
Mardan
Mingora
Kohat
Abbotabad
Khuzdar
Dera Ismail Khan
Nowshera
Charsada
Swabi
Turbat

They are not in Pakjab or sindh.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2014 07:04

Correct pgbhat. All those towns/cities are in NWFP (Khyber Pakhtunkhwa) or Baluchistan. Apart from peshawar and Quetta - all the names (or most) are familiar because they have been in the news for massive and brutal terrorist attacks.

I had a thought related to this:

1. Whom do the Chinese negotiate with in Pakistan?

They negotiate with the Paki "LOL civilian administration" and the Paki army. Does that get their work done. Not really. In fact many project failures and delays - like dams in Khyber Pakhtnkhwa and roads and the Gwadar port are directly related to attacks and killings of Chinese and lack of security in those areas. In fact terrorists in Uighuristan are linked wth areas that ar in TTP control where the Paki army can do nothing.

In other words the Chinese succeed in giving aid but progress in making money out of Pakistan is poor - but the Chinese are unable to make the Army and LOL civil admin do what is needed.

The only people who have a net gain from this are the Paki elite in the LOL civil admin and the army

2. Whom do the Americans negotiate with in Pakistan?

You guessed it. Again it is the LOL civl admin and the Army. the US does not even make a pretence of wanting business links with Pakistan. they unashamedly maintain a negative trade balance with Pakistan so there is a massive net inflo of money into Pakistan from the US. But does that get the US what it wants out of Pakistan. You're right again, the answer is no. they did not get bin Laden from the Pakis and they are unable to buy stability in Baluchistan and NWFP.

The only people who have a net gain from this are the Paki elite in the LOL civil admin and the army

3. Whom do we Indians negotiate with in Pakistan?

Yup. dead right. We negotiate with the LOL Paki army. When we reach agreements withthem, the only people who gain are the LOL civil admin and the army.

Question is why does every country deal with these morons imagining that they represent all of Pakistan? Are they unable to think straight? I do not see the US or Chinese or even us Indians gaining any strategic advantages by dealing with the LOL Paki civil admin and army. They simply become more wealthy and powerful and nothing changes.

Why?

I really do think Pakistan should be seen as at least three parts - a para-Indus Pakjab and Sindh and a separate NWFP and Baluchistan. I can see absolutely no rationale for anyone pretending that there is one country there. We are simply attuned to imagining that evn if Indians are stupid the US and Chinese must be wise and that what they do makes sense.

It does not, to me. if it does to anyone else please tell me. Everyone is at a net loss in dealing with the LOL dmin and army - ecept the elite and Paki army.

People can start negotiating with other power centers of Pakistan ONLY if we recognize power centers other than the Paki army and civil admin. We will never recognize them until we acknowledge that they exist, while suppressed by the Paki army and LOL civil admin who gain the most by doing that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2014 07:14

Question:

Are Baluchis bad people? No? Unlikely that any single group are all bad.

Are Pashtuns bad people? Unlikely again that all people of a particular ethnicity can be called bad people.

Are the Taliban bad people? yes? But why? the Taliban are mostly Pashtuns and Pashtuns are not bad people. The taliban are all Muslims and all Muslims are not bad people.

So why are the Taliban bad?

They are bad because the US declared them bad and won the propaganda war long ago.

If the Taliban are bad,Punjabi groups like the Lashlar e Toiba., Jaish e Mohammad, Harkat ul Mujahidden and the Lashkar e Jhangvi are hardly good people.

The main difference between Taliban and LeT, JrM, HuM, LeJ etc are that the US directly fights the Taliban. they simply put the others on "lists" but do not fight them

I put it to people on here that most of us, including our bureaucracy and government exist under a shadow where US propaganda and the US world view dominates and clouds our ability to think independently.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Apr 2014 07:56

http://www.dawn.com/news/1100568/the-pakhtun-question
The Pakhtun question

Yet arguably the most curious case of all is that of the Pakhtuns whose political, economic and cultural status in Pakistan has undergone more shifts than anyone cares to consider.It is not emphasised enough in our history books that the dominant political sentiment amongst Pakhtuns to the east of the Durand Line in 1947 was anti-partition. Playing up their link to both India and Afghanistan, the newly born Pakistani state subjected Pakhtun nationalists — whose base was the populous and wealthy Peshawar Valley — to political victimisation. At the same time, the state patronised so-called ‘tribal’ Pakhtuns who were considered loyal and easy to mobilise in defence of the country. In short, from the early years the state adopted a carrot and stick policy vis-à-vis the Pakhtuns.Over time the separatist strand within the Pakhtun nationalist movement has been tamed, largely through systematic cooption. Particular emphasis has been placed on inducting Pakhtuns into the civil and military services. Significantly, the intelligence agencies now feature a substantial Pakhtun component, with the greatest influx taking place during and after the Afghan War in the 1980s.
Meanwhile, there has also been a deliberate policy of keeping the ‘tribal’ areas a political backwater, so as to serve absurd ‘national security’ imperatives. It is a cruel fact of history that even as this policy has spectacularly — and unsurprisingly — imploded, it is ordinary Pakhtuns from across Fata who have to suffer the consequences. Thousands have been killed and maimed and millions driven from their homes by a brutal conflict which, until relatively recently, most had internalised as an epic battle being waged against the enemies of Islam.Of course some Pakhtuns are still prone to believing this hackneyed narrative, and while it can be argued that the state is primarily responsible for mangling Pakhtun culture beyond recognition, critical introspection is required if Pakhtun society is to move beyond both the horrific outcomes of violent conflict and the myopia of state ideologyTruth be told, in some parts of Pakistan, Pakhtuns are synonymous with the state, notwithstanding the fact that in the dominant ethno-national narrative Punjab is the only hegemon.. The brutalisation of Baloch society in recent years has featured the Frontier Corps, comprised almost exclusively of Pakhtuns. More generally Pakhtuns are economically and professionally more advanced than the Baloch in virtually all fields of life.. History suggests that this trend is not a recent one; Pakhtuns have travelled across the length and breadth of the Indian subcontinent for hundreds of years, often assimilating into the regions they have settled in.What the future holds is impossible to predict. I doubt there will ever be consensus within the Pakhtun nation on what is necessary and sufficient for it to progress. Indeed, popular perception aside, nationalism is never a truly representative force, especially when nations are so badly divided along class and other lines.Nevertheless progressive segments within the Pakhtun nation necessarily have a crucial role to play, not least in linking up with other progressives across the ethnic divide. Progressive Pakhtuns must also denounce the complicity of affluent Pakhtuns with the state, imperialism and the religious right. It is the nexus of these three forces that keeps Pakhtun society in crisis, that precludes the possibility of all Pakhtuns living lives of dignity.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Apr 2014 08:32

Are you a Mughal?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Apr 2014 09:07

Islam and Politics in Pakistan by Hussain Haqqani

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 18 Apr 2014 17:34

Probably belongs in the Benis thread but what the heck...Pakistan Army will preserve its dignity: COAS Sharif

General Raheel Sharif said on Monday that the Pakistan Army...would resolutely preserve its own dignity and institutional pride

Please note, it is not the nation's dignity and pride they will preserve like a can of cooked pork.

Pakistan Army never has and never will shy away from rendering any sacrifice in ensuring a formidable defense and security of the motherland

Never, sir, never!! By the way, isn't references to one's kabila as "motherland" against the tenets of malsi? Not be outdone, the brave federal minister for railways Khawaja Saad Rafiq, had this to add in an act of self-fulfillment:

(he)...endorsed the Army Chief's statement adding that it is the duty of the entire nation to protect respect, prestige and pride of the institution of armed forces of Pakistan.

Whaaaat!!? Finally, shit has hit the bull.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2014 19:43

More Benis. Rename this thread benis

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-14501 ... -Engineer-

Tarrel than tarrest receives hardel than hardest slap

KARACHI: A police personnel slapped Chinese Engineer at Pakistan Railways diesel workshop, Geo News reported.

The Chinese Engineers stopped working in the workshop after the incident.

Deputy Divisional Superintendent, Pakistan Railways Mehfooz Ali condemned the incident and said 14 Chinese engineers were working in the workshop. He said the situation has been normalized.

SSP Railways Ibn-e-Yameen said eight police personnel were deployed for the security of Chinese team. He said the accused personnel has been arrested and would be sent to jail on this serious mistake.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 18 Apr 2014 19:57

shiv wrote:He said the accused personnel has been arrested and would be sent to jail on this serious mistake.

Forget the law, let the law take its own course and all that jazz. It sure is a serious and expensive mistake. Must have been a Raa agent. Paki HS&D sinks to a new low. The only salvation will be to give up half of Gwadar. Wait! That has already happened.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 18 Apr 2014 20:50

anupmisra wrote:Probably belongs in the Benis thread but what the heck...Pakistan Army will preserve its dignity: COAS Sharif

means dont cross the line in mushy's case.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 18 Apr 2014 21:01

anupmisra wrote: Pakistan Army will preserve its dignity: COAS Sharif
Not be outdone, the brave federal minister for railways Khawaja Saad Rafiq, had this to add in an act of self-fulfillment:

(he)...endorsed the Army Chief's statement adding that it is the duty of the entire nation to protect respect, prestige and pride of the institution of armed forces of Pakistan.

Whaaaat!!? Finally, shit has hit the bull.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Apr 2014 21:08

Rambling thoughts here....since it is the Ashrafs who came to India and formed the nobility and then formed Pakistan riding on the Muslim league, are they not to considered as Muhajirs ? Pakjabis, and Sindhis are not Ashrafs as they are converts. Some Ashrafs like the nobility of Bhopal and Rampur were Pakhtuns. Baloch can be ruled out in this discussion.

Assuming this to be true....are they already not getting their comeuppance in Karachi by the TTP and the Sindhi government? This thought came to my mind several years ago when I had said that until a homeland is found for the Muhajirs, the Kabila will never settle down. The MQM had been lobbying for a separate state for Muhajirs some time ago.

It was the Ashrafs from UP who formed the vanguard of the Kabila till the Mughal era and now the leadership has been taken away from them. Muslim league is run by the Sharifs, army is run by the Pakjabis...so what is the significance of Pakistan for the Ashrafs now?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Apr 2014 22:19

Remember the saying "Every country has an army, but in Pakistan the army has a country"? Fellow who made that statement deserves a nobel prize for philosophy.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Apr 2014 22:53

Lilo wrote:
anupmisra wrote: Pakistan Army will preserve its dignity: COAS Sharifrotfl:

Pakistan-Army-will-reserve-its-"Musharraf' & Virginity:-COASS No Arjal Paki can touch this.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Apr 2014 23:48

Paul and Shiv, Maybe Pakistan suffers from collective Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). They swing between bouts of euphoria or despair and some thing like "we hate you but don't leave us" syndrome.

People with borderline personality disorder (BPD) experience such violent and frightening mood swings that they often fear for their sanity. They can be euphoric one moment, despairing and depressed the next. Sufferers of BPD display remarkably similar symptoms:

* A shaky sense of identity
* Sudden outbursts of anger
* Oversensitivity to real or imagined rejection
* Brief, turbulent love affairs
* Intense feelings of emptiness
* Eating disorders, drug abuse, and other self-destructive tendencies
* An irrational fear of abandonment and an inability to be alone

Added to that they embraced Islam so they could be the rulers an found they are the new slaves within Islam.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Apr 2014 00:18

anupmisra wrote:Probably belongs in the Benis thread but what the heck...Pakistan Army will preserve its dignity: COAS Sharif
<SNIP>

Pakistan ka matlab kyaa.

Ask not what you can do for your kabila, ask what kabila can do for you.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 19 Apr 2014 01:19

ramana wrote:Added to that they embraced Islam so they could be the rulers an found they are the new slaves within Islam.

Hotel California Syndrome. You can check in but you cant leave. But to your point, islam attracted opportunists as its rank and file but not all opportunists chose islam. Many chose to subvert their original faiths from within.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Apr 2014 01:56

Khawaja Asif takes U-turn, calls Pakistan Army an Ass et
http://www.dawn.com/news/1100764/khawaj ... y-an-asset

SLAMABAD: Calling his past statements on the Pakistan Army a mistake, Defence Minister Khawaja Asif in a statement said that a strong and respected army is a national Ass et.“In the last couple of weeks some misunderstanding cropped up based on my speeches delivered many years ago which were made in a different context and in a different environment,” said Asif in a statement issued on Friday in Islamabad.“It was neither my intention and nor my objective to undermine an institution, which I hold in high esteem, at a time when the armed forces are fighting on many fronts,” the defence minister insisted.“As a Pakistani I am proud of the valour and sacrifices of the men in uniform for the defence of the nation. It was not my objective to undermine it,” he said.The defence minister admitted that his statements presented by the media created a misplaced perception about himself which he said was far from reality.Pakistan Army corps commanders in their meeting last week at GHQ expressed anger over statements of certain minister's and told chief General Raheel Sharif that their sentiments may be conveyed to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Apr 2014 02:05

Resolving civil-military tensionsBy Shahzad Chaudhry

All Know How It End : So "Hare" We Go Again

Three elements of Pakistan’s existence, among others, are fixed: the nation-state, the military, and its political system. Each has its own import and a specified role and are, therefore, unlikely to go anywhere. Usually, all three should meld to secure and run the nation-state as a responsible and relevant partner of the global polity. But, even if these three elements of the state were to undergo some tension, some dissonance, they must still learn to coexist in difficult moments of disharmony..Secondly, given the sense of tenuousness that Pakistan’s political system pervasively lives with, they are either always looking over their shoulders for a surreptitious move by the military to oust them and live in constant fear of being upstaged; or, to preclude such an eventuality, begin their own ill-considered furtive moves against the military with an objective to eventually dominate the military. There isn’t a better example of it than Mian Sahib’s 1997-1999 tenure. What ensues is a spy-versus-spy scenario that keeps the entire governing structure and the nation on tenterhooks.
At times, an ill-conceived ‘over-cleverness’ to pre-empt the other side’s aggressive motives can result in consequences that cause unnecessary tension, laden with expectations of an impending strike by either side. Again, the events from May till October of 1999 under Mian Sahib are a case in point. Before the October 12 takeover, the air was pregnant with expectation of one or the other possibility between the PM and the army chief. The inevitable happened. Mian Sahib dithered and botched and Musharraf struck.The politicians have now also mastered the art of raising false bogies against the military, with loud bickering of less than optimum ‘authority’ to formulate policies, of continuous interference by the military in their affairs and of a real-time, over-the-shoulder monitoring of what the civilian government was up to, especially in the areas of strife where both are required to work together in coordination. . Mostly, the politicians are found short on capacity and capability in handling matters of the state — much short in the needed level of proficiency, knowledge and commitment. They find it easy to pin it on the military’s domineering and pervasive presence rendering them ineffective.Thirdly, what has been called a sense of ‘entitlement’, or ‘special treatment’ that the military considers is their privilege, is what is now at the centre of this equation’s current plight. The military is sensed to be short on fuse on a perceived slight and feels wronged by unjust aspersions, comments and perceptions that the military deems impact its image and lowers its credibility. Sensitive to its institutional pride and place among popular perception, the military tends to stand its ground against any perceived attempt to discredit it. What ensues is an environment of unease and discomfort that practically shadows this relationship between the two. When the disagreements are acute, it almost seems like a confrontation.
The ongoing saga of yet another political-military face-off is touted to root in two apparent points of disagreement: the Musharraf trial and the manner of dialogue with the TTP. Both are only partially true. True, the military would have liked the dialogue process to be little more assertive: instead it borders on being appeasing. Yet, there is ample opportunity for both sides to communicate their respective thoughts on the issue to each other in numerous meetings that both sides hold in preparation of the process or in reviewing progress. It is therefore hardly a reason for any visible hostility.
Musharraf’s trial is ‘the forbidden apple’ that the government could have best avoided, for its own good and for the larger benefit of the nation and its people. It is diversionary in nature and unnecessarily takes away most precious time and resource of the government in dealing with an individual who hardly is of any consequence to anybody, including the military. But then this opportunity to try an ex-dictator, a military man, is what embodies the underlying currents of deep animosity that has governed the civil-military relationship. To the civilian mind, the Musharraf trial is a rare opportunity to get even with the military. The ‘Rule of law’, so easily trashed otherwise by any person of power — civilian or military — is quite transparently used as a shallow attempt to clothe the process in moralistic overtones. To the military, it remains a distant irritation, if at all. The process is long and its outcome still very, very tentative. Conflating Musharraf with the military is patently devious. With General Raheel’s reported statement by the ISPR, the issue was not what prompted it, rather should he have said it. This is a moment of consensual acceptability of each other, warts and all, and the moment to coexist, if cooperation seems difficult. The silver lining? Even this will pass, eventually.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Apr 2014 04:43

Jhujar, Doesn't the Defence Minister Khwaja Asif clarifying he has respect for military smack of Panchayat elders demanding he apologize?

First some imagined insult
Gen. Sharif claims TSPA will defend its dignity(whatever that is left afer TTP shredded it)
Khawaja Asif clarifies.

Now where is TTP's POV addressed?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Apr 2014 06:28

ramana wrote:Jhujar, Doesn't the Defence Minister Khwaja Asif clarifying he has respect for military smack of Panchayat elders demanding he apologize?
Now where is TTP's POV addressed?

Its not only the defence guy but now finnance guy is called in for instructions.
Finance Minister, COAS discuss defence budget
Ganje Ki Gardan :Rawheel Kaa Boot

RAW AL PINDI: Federal Finance Minister Ishaq Dar met Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif at General Headquarters (GHQ) here Friday, Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) said.According to ISPR press release, the finance minister and army chief discussed defence budget for the next fiscal year.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Apr 2014 06:35

A face-off again, if not worse
Khanjars are out: Abki Baar Ganja Aar Yaan Jernail Paar

I am not so sure now because both sides are not only standing firm but digging in. So unless one side or the other gives way it is hard to see how this storm will pass. It may even get worse although let us pray fervently it doesn’t because the last thing we need at this time is a tug-of-war, a power tussle, between Nawaz Sharif and General Headquarters. If this goes on we will be back to the beginning.We’ve seen it all before…in that year of excitement, 1999. This is the depressing thing about this whole affair, the story line being repeated, because it suggests (a) that Nawaz Sharif has learnt nothing from the past, that he refuses to forgive and forget; and (b) that the army has not shed its superiority complex, its old, exalted view of its role in the state.A third conclusion also suggests itself: that our political class is less than sophisticated when it comes to analysing issues of power, sentiment and false emotion often overriding sober calculation.Into this tangled skein has also entered a perception of betrayal, the army feeling that it was double-crossed when Musharraf appeared in court and was formally indicted. Apparently, there was some sort of an agreement at a high enough level that once this happened the way would be cleared for Musharraf to fly off to Dubai, the Riviera of the Pakistani elite. The court placed no obstacles and it was up to the interior ministry to remove the restriction. An application was submitted, as per the previous understanding, but there was a change of heart on the part of the government and the permission was not given.
this was when the army saw red: “Same night, almost in anger, Musharraf was switched from AFIC to his home in Chak Shehzad, without even the knowledge of the civil authorities. He had been taken into protective custody by his boys.” We’ve heard of residences being declared sub-jails. This is the first time a residence has been declared a sub-hospital, that too of an army hospital. As the Urdu saying goes, for the wise even signs – ishaaray – are enough. The position now is this: feelings in the army are running high (talk to your average army officer and this becomes pretty clear), suggesting a dangerous possibility: that the army will not countenance a further; continuation of the Musharraf trial. Obstacles in the way of this trial were put up before; they will be put up again. The army seems to be in no mood to back down. Cynics said that Nawaz Sharif would not be able to resist a confrontation with the army. But that this would happen so soon, and on such avoidable grounds, has left even the cynics confounded.Nawaz Sharif may still think he has Musharraf in a spot. But the way events are unfolding what we are seeing looks very much like the general’s revenge, albeit in unwitting fashion. Why don’t we learn from history? The gods have never been partial to those who tend to overplay their hands.

partha · Post by **partha** » 19 Apr 2014 07:05

http://tribune.com.pk/story/697367/the- ... elections/

The enigma of India’s elections

Where the author after advising his Indian friend to not worry about Pakistan's situation, goes on to worry about Indian situation and presents wrong facts.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Apr 2014 07:51

Shivji,
What I am saying will sound farfetched.

It makes sense to think of pakhanasthan as one political entity-pakjab+colonies.The idea of a nation state is not sacrosanct not withstanding the rituals and praraphrenalia of elections.

The idea of a core state +colonies has been there from time immemorial-Roman Empire,british Empire,Soviet Imperialism,Han 'communist' imperialism,Ottoman Empire,modern First world(Anglo-Dutch Establishment) etc.Its very much a valid theory and practice.

When 'pakhanasthan' collapses,we can treat parts of pakjab exactly the way pakjab today treats its baluch and baltistan colonies.That way we can reduce the nos of pakistanis to be killed nor do we have to take responsibility for the millions of pakis who will live in rump pakjab and the millions who can be driven away from the west punjab that will rejoin India.What benefit will we get by having Dera Ghazi khan in West Punjab.Mianwali,Sargodha which have had historically low Hindu popultions for a millenia will become part of rump Pakjab.

Ofcourse,theres a fundamental difference.These parts of pakjab will not be part of India while Baluchistan or Baltistan are part of present day pakhanastan.But Indian Army can send in expeditionary excursions to pacify them if they get too excited for their own benefit.There will be a natural progression from present day pakjab to rump state of pakjab.

Also,its wrong to place the pashtuns on same footing as baluch and baltistanis.The sarkari pashtuns are very much part of the establishment and they kill with impunity baluchs and baltistanis.Let us not underplay the lure of settled civilsation to urban pashtuns in pakhanastan

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2014 09:10

svenkat wrote:Shivji,
It makes sense to think of pakhanasthan as one political entity-pakjab+colonies.The idea of a nation state is not sacrosanct not withstanding the rituals and praraphrenalia of elections.

The idea of a core state +colonies has been there from time immemorial-Roman Empire,british Empire,Soviet Imperialism,Han 'communist' imperialism,Ottoman Empire,modern First world(Anglo-Dutch Establishment) etc.Its very much a valid theory and practice.

I disagree because Pakjab, US and China and KSA are all cooperating to maintain the dominance of Pakjab and colonal status of Pashtuns and Baluchistan. This is not good for us. Pakjab is sending excursionary troops to maintain their hegemony and when their writ does not work US and China step in.

Pakjab gets all the money, arms and influence because the US, KSA and China are doing exactly what you suggest.
And what Pakjab, US and China do is against Indian interests.

How is it in our interest to do that other than hope that things go bad at some future unspecified date when we can wash our hands off. All we can do is track two and kandle kissing like MMS because we have to support Pakjabi hegemony. How does it help to simply accept it? That is status quo cop out policy. I don't see the need to curse Mani Shankar Aiyar, MMS and other Kandle Kissers if people think it is wise to support Punjabi hegemony backed by US and China arms and funds. Why not let Pakjab extend hegemony over Afghanistan using the excuse that there is historical precedent? Why don't we simply keep out of Afghanistan?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Apr 2014 09:24

shivji,
seeing 'reality' for what it is does not mean accepting it.I think,theres no way anyone can get baltistanis and baluchis to break up the pakjabi state.The TTP too cannot break up pakjab.the power behind pakjab,as you very well know,is US and China.Pakjab is just a shadow.I find it embarassing to tell all this to an acknowledged guru of BRF.over and out.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2014 09:35

svenkat wrote:shivji,
seeing 'reality' for what it is does not mean accepting it.I think,theres no way anyone can get baltistanis and baluchis to break up the pakjabi state.The TTP too cannot break up pakjab.the power behind pakjab,as you very well know,is US and China.Pakjab is just a shadow.I find it embarassing to tell all this to an acknowledged guru of BRF.over and out.

What is the exact problem in seeing and stating reality as it is? The reality is a dominant Punjab province taking aid from US and China and fighting to hold control over Pashtuns and Baluchis. Why not say it out loud?

I say that saying it out loud is essential so we all know what reality is rather than pretending. The name Pakistan sounds as whole and complete as "USA" - like one nation. But Pakistan is not whole and complete like USA. So why not call it by an appropriate name?

If Pakistan calls itself the United Federation of Pakistan people will believe it. Why not point out that Pakistan is a fragmented nation of four provinces? Why should a name hurt anyone? We are not trying to overturn history by saying it. Why not call it "Disunited Provinces of Pakistan" or some such name - just a name change for this thread. My ambitions do not go so far as to send Indian expeditionary forces anywhere

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Apr 2014 09:59

X-post
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1631064

..
About 70% of British Muslims are, in fact, South Asian.
..
British-Pakistani Muslims have become Muslims first, and are losing patience with the Pakistani practice of the religion embedded in Sufi traditions ..

So pakis have turned glonal Islamists after acquiring UK citizenship (& UK passport) but that won't stop pakis from opening paki hotel and calling it Indian restaurant only!