Internal Security Watch

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Feb 2015 10:56

Media, NGOs, Think tanks etc and its support to terrorism. Doval Ji

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2015 18:32

Crying wolf: Narrative of ‘Delhi church attacks’ flies in the face of facts

By Rupa Subramanya

Is the Christian community in Delhi under threat now that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is in power? Many people would like you to think so.

Since December 2014, six specific incidents, all in Delhi, of alleged attacks on churches and, most recently, on a Christian school have been widely reported and commented upon by the media, both domestic and foreign.

The burden of this spate of reportage and commentary is to suggest that the recent attacks reflect a broader trend of rising intolerance against religious minorities, in this instance Christians in particular. It’s also suggested that this, in turn, is a result, either directly or indirectly, of the rise to power of Narendra Modi and the BJP in May 2014.
PTI

PTI

Even US President Barack Obama chose to pinpoint the issue of religious intolerance in India in widely publicised speeches, both in India and on his return to the US. While he made no specific mention of the BJP being responsible, his comments were widely read as a veiled critique of the Modi government.

While it’s hard to quantify the impact, the church attacks also figured in the recently concluded Delhi assembly election which swept the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) and Arvind Kejriwal to a landslide victory. Minority communities, both Muslim and Christian , appear to have heavily favoured the AAP, and church leaders in the recent past have made no secret of the fact that their preferred party was indeed AAP. In fact, in the aftermath of AAP’s victory in the Delhi elections, the Catholic Archbishop Anil Joseph Thomas Couto celebrated the BJP’s defeat.

It’s routinely assumed that Hindu groups support the BJP, which many do. Yet many in the mainstream establishment refuse to acknowledge the obvious fact that minority religious groups, both Muslim and Christian, themselves play an overtly political role.

It’s no wonder then that church leaders, including the same archbishop, have proclaimed there’s a pattern to these recent alleged attacks.

But do the facts actually bear out the claims being made? In a word: no.

The first of these six alleged attacks, the fire that resulted in the burning of St. Sebastian Church in Dilshad Garden, is currently under investigation by a Special Investigative Team (SIT) set up by the Home Ministry shortly after the incident occurred in December.

Delhi police crack down on protest against church attacks, detain dozens
Police call Delhi church attack 'stray case': Community slams PM Modi's 'sabka saath, sabka vikas'

In a second incident in Jasola it was alleged that a group of miscreants threw a stone and shattered a window pane. The police commissioner, as reported here by a news editor and here said it was due to a group of kids playing outside, which resulted in a stone landing inside the church. There is no evidence as yet of any communal angle.

The third incident in Rohini, in which the Christmas crib was charred, was determined by the police to be the result of an electrical short circuit.

The fourth incident in Vikaspuri, in which a small group of men allegedly vandalised a church, turned out to be the result of a drunken dare. What’s more, they were caught on CCTV and arrested shortly thereafter by the police and have confessed to the crime. Again, there’s no evidence whatsoever of a communal angle.

The fifth incident in Vasant Kunj, allegedly a case of burglary, is currently under investigation by the police.

The sixth and most recent incident, in Vasant Vihar, of a burglary at a Christian school, has been determined by the police and the school itself to be a case of theft— Rs. 8,000 was reported to have been stolen — again, no communal angle.

And, according to the Delhi Police themselves, there’s no evidence whatever that these six incidents in Dilshad Garden, Jasola, Rohini, Vikaspuri, Vasant Kunj and Vasant Vihar are related or part of a pattern of attacks on minority institutions. Further, again according to the police themselves, and as noted above, there’s no evidence that communal sentiment animated any of these attacks.

It’s also necessary to keep the nature and quantum of these incidents in the proper perspective.

According to the Delhi Police’s own statistics, in 2014 there were 155,654 incidents of crime in the city, of which there were 10,309 burglaries and 42,634 “other” incidents of theft, that is not involving motor vehicles or houses. Total crimes reported almost doubled from 2013 to 2014, reflecting, according to the police themselves, more diligent filing of reports by them rather than a huge jump in the incidence of crime.

Crucially, it’s not just churches that are periodically vandalised and robbed in India. With incidents of theft alone, according to the Delhi Police, 206 temples, 30 gurdwaras and three churches (out of some 200 or more churches in Delhi) and 14 mosques were burgled in 2014. And such crimes didn’t mysteriously start to occur in May 2014 after the BJP’s victory — as with other crimes, they routinely occur every year in Delhi as the data show.

Despite the facts pointing in one direction, church leaders and commentators, both in the domestic and foreign media who parrot their line, continue to insist that there’s a pattern to the incidents, the motivation is communal, and the BJP or affiliated groups are somehow responsible. An entire narrative of a rising tide of religious intolerance in India has been crafted, on the back of unpersuasive evidence, such as these six incidents and misinformation around the conversion and reconversion debate in India.

Even in an open and shut case like the Vikaspuri incident in which the perpetrators were caught and confessed to the drunken dare, Archbishop Cuoto maintains in the face of the evidence that he was dissatisfied with the police explanation, without explaining how the CCTV footage and the perpetrators’ own confession somehow bears a different interpretation.

Of course, the police aren’t infallible, and if church leaders or those who toe their line have any evidence of a communal angle or the involvement of Hindu groups in any of these incidents, they’re surely obliged to come forward with whatever facts they may have to back up their assertions. They haven't done so, which suggests that their assertions are based on prejudice or a pre-determined agenda, not facts.

Unfortunately, the authorities reinforce the erroneous impression that minorities are under threat when, for example, as reported here they propose to set up special protection for minority religious institutions in Delhi. As we’ve seen, houses of worship of all faiths are subject to burglary and vandalism, so why extend this preferential treatment to only minority institutions? Aren’t temples equally worthy of protection?

This is where the Modi government must step up to the plate and improve the messaging. Reacting passively and with a lag to loud cries that minorities are under attack only reinforces that narrative of persecution. What is needed is a positive counter-narrative which stresses that the problem is not crimes against Christians but the larger problem of law and order, which affects everyone regardless of religious affiliation.

And all of us should be asking why exactly are church leaders and their friends in the media so eager to establish there’s a communal angle to these recent incidents when the facts say the opposite? What are they hoping to gain?

Church leaders and their media acolytes have every right to dislike the BJP or Hindu groups if they so wish. But it’s irresponsible and downright dangerous if they promote their agenda in the face of the facts.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 16 Feb 2015 21:30

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Go-back ... 239719.cms

These rogue lawyers in TN are crossing the boundaries of what's legal and acceptable when they resort to threats against HC judges and demand that lawyers have a say in who becomes the next TN judge! This is as serious an internal threat to law and order as any.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 16 Feb 2015 23:32

^^^ DK and DMK actively politicised and aggressively promoted cadres to pursue legal path to set right (of what in their poisoned opinion) social in-justice. This translates into anti-Brahminism, anti-Hindi and anti-Hindu. Justice Kaul in their perverted opinion is probably a north-Indian Brahmin who is denying them their choice of representation. Almost all Kazhaga-advocates are street "porikki's" rogues poisoned beyond imagination.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 16 Feb 2015 23:43

Krithivas, agree with you. That is my reading of what is going on here too -- these porukkis are "legal advocates" which in itself says how the state has seriously deteriorated in the past few decades.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Feb 2015 00:11

Jaising Leads Protest Against Setalvad's 'Victimisation'
http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... ion/881711

( Khisak Rahi Hai Naqab Mukh se , Ahista Ahista)

However, the apex court had noted that the allegations against them were "grave" and it was also not a case of quashing the FIR.Jaising, who was not arguing the matter was present in the courtroom and had made certain comments to the dislike of the apex court.The case relates to alleged embezzlement of funds for a museum at Ahmedabad's Gulbarg Society that was devastated in the 2002 riots.Jaising, who was Additional Solicitor General in the previous UPA government, said the victimisation against them started from 2010."Every time she gets a favourable order from the court, there is hyperactivity on the part of Gujarat police to lodge an FIR," the former ASG said at a press conference here.Jaising said, "The issue is why they want to make an arrest and why was the Gujarat police at her doorsteps within minutes of the judgement being delivered? It's a big question mark."She was referring to the February 12 verdict of the Bombay High Court by which their anticipatory bail plea was rejected.Journalist and National Integration Council member, John Dayal, alleged that the FIR against her follows a "certain pattern" and the police was insisting on a custodial interrogation of the activists to humiliate them.When questioned if she would intend to get the very prosecution quashed by Supreme Court citing frivolous and criminal intent, Jaising said Setalvad only wanted to make it clear that she was not running away from any investigation."She is saying you can investigate whatever you want because I am very clear about my accounts," she elaborated.The group, which came in support of the activist couple, also issued a statement raising "serious doubts about the bona fide of the complainants" in the case.The Supreme Court on Friday had passed an order protecting Setalvad and her husband from arrest till February 19 in connection with a fund embezzlement case, while noting that allegations against them were "grave".

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 17 Feb 2015 13:17

Tuvaluan wrote:These rogue lawyers in TN are crossing the boundaries of what's legal and acceptable when they resort to threats against HC judges and demand that lawyers have a say in who becomes the next TN judge!

I hope you remember the incident where there was a major clash between TN Police and the lawyers, which happened 3-4 years back. The lawyers seemed to have targeted the police first, who after showing enough patience finally retaliated. The police after some point of time really did not care who was getting hit, or what may happen to them. From what I read later there were some disciplinary action initiated against the senior police officers (though nothing major; routine transfers etc.) nothing was done against the unruly mob who are said to be "lawyers". It is in the state's best interest to ensure that no out fit gets the absolute majority in goonda giri.

krithivas wrote:Justice Kaul in their perverted opinion is probably a north-Indian Brahmin who is denying them their choice of representation.

Then I feel TN politicos and the DK, DMK out fits does require some course correction. It is ages ago that the anti-Hindi* agitation etc. happened. But even now if they are continuing to hold a divisive ideology, then things don't look all that right.

PS: * I do feel that anti-Hindi agitation was required or else Nehru & Co would have ensured that all other languages becomes useless and only Hindi rules supreme. It is TN which clearly showed that one-sided language implementation policies would not just get executed easily.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 17 Feb 2015 13:59

I am going to be politically incorrect.

I hope nobody takes it personally.

This has nothing to do with anti-brahminism/anti-northindianism.Its about power.

The reality behind protests against Madras HC Judges' appointment

There are times one agrees with Rahul Mehta or Kejriwal.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Feb 2015 14:49

Tuvaluan wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Go-back ... 239719.cms

These rogue lawyers in TN are crossing the boundaries of what's legal and acceptable when they resort to threats against HC judges and demand that lawyers have a say in who becomes the next TN judge! This is as serious an internal threat to law and order as any.

Strangely, most of these rogue lawyers seem to be from a common background. Aided and abetted by very "interested" political parties.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 18 Feb 2015 06:12

Markandey Katju boasts on Facebook of aiding and abetting Paki illegals:

Why I granted stay orders to Pakistanis
When I was a Judge of Allahabad High Court ( 1991-2004 ) a large number of writ petitions were filed before me from time to time by old Pakistani citizens who had come to India on a visa of one month or so and did not want to go back. So deportation orders were issued by the Indian government to deport them to Pakistan, which they challenged before me.
In every such case I would pass a stay order staying their deportation ' till further orders'. Since there are about a million ( ten lac ) cases in the Allahabad High Court, a case which had been heard once would usually be listed again after several years. So the result of my stay orders was that in effect by a judicial order I converted a one month visa into a 5 year one or so ( because the case would come up again after 5 years or so, and till then the stay order would continue ).
Why did I do this ?
I did it because, as I have said repeatedly ( see my articles ' The Truth about Pakistan ', etc online and on my blog justicekatju.blogspot.in ), I do not recognize Pakistan. I believe that Pakistan is a fake, artificial entity ( I refuse to call it a country ) which was created by the British on the basis of the bogus two nation theory, propagated by that rascal Jinnah, who was really a British agent, to keep Hindus and Muslims fighting each other, and thereby keep India, of which Pakistan ( and Bangladesh ) is really a part, weak and backward. I refuse to be a party to this historical fraud and swindle and I have never recognized, and will never recognize, Pakistan as a country. It is part of India, and is bound to be one day reunited with India under a strong, secular, modern minded government, which will not tolerate religious bigotry or extremism of any kind, whether Hindu or Muslim, and crush it with an iron hand.
So I regarded these petitioners before me as Indians. When they had been young men at the time of Partition or so they had been foolishly carried away by religious passions, incited by our British rulers or their agents, like that rascal Jinnah ( who is stupidly called Qaid-e-Azam ), and in that fit of passion they migrated to that fake entity called Pakistan.
But now they had become old people ( if they had not already died ), and were nostalgic andwanted to return to their native homes where they has spent their young days, and where many of their relatives still lived. Unfortunately, on ,migrating to Pakistan they lost their Indian nationality, and became Pakistanis. The Indian Government has always been very reluctant to grant visas to Pakistanis, and even where it is granted after great difficulty, it is usually only for a short period of one month or so. Several conditions are also put on it, e.g. that the visa is only granted for living within one city, and there also one has to report to the nearest police station every week or so.
These old men ( and women ) had come on this short visa, and were reunited with their relatives and old friends, and wanted to spend the last days of their lives here. They realized the folly of their youth, but it was too late now, what could they do ?
As I said above, I do not recognize Pakistan, and I regard 'Pakistanis' as Indians ( whatever 'Pakistanis' may think of themselves ). So I regarded these petitioners as Indians. And how can an Indian be deported from India ?
I did not say so in my orders, but that was the real reason for passing them.

https://www.facebook.com/justicekatju/p ... 73?fref=nf

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 18 Feb 2015 06:17

It is not within Katju's jurisdiction to make this call -- he can only interpret them, but that does not mean interpreting pakis as Indians, WTF. This stupid cretin was actually a chief justice?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 18 Feb 2015 07:03

So what purpose did the ban on her travel serve if the idea was to stop her from testifying?

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... ovt/881083

Pillai was off loaded on January 11 when she was on her way to London to meet UK lawmakers on domestic issues. However, she later addressed the gathering on 'Skype' video conference.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 18 Feb 2015 07:24

So I regarded these petitioners as Indians. And how can an Indian be deported from India ?

Same way Hindus and Sikhs could be deported from West Panjab, Sindh, NW Frontier, India.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 18 Feb 2015 07:53

So what purpose did the ban on her travel serve if the idea was to stop her from testifying?

There are other ways to make the mofos in Greenpeace squeal surely.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Feb 2015 08:11

amitkv wrote:Sadhvi Pragya gets court's nod to meet her ailing mother

Sadhvi Pragya gets just 1 hour to meet her ailing mother but Sanjay Dutt is out every month for every Tom/Dick and Harry reason. What is BJP doing to help her? If the case is false then the charges should have been dropped by now. No acche din for her.

You really think BJP is any different from other parties?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Feb 2015 09:49

Karthik S wrote:You really think BJP is any different from other parties?

Well, unlike the other parties what does the BJP gain by persecuting her?

Its the BJP which has a hindutva vote to worry about, not the cong or MIM or aap or ncp. No? So an expectation that the bjp will be easier on her and will do what it can to help is suddenly unreasonable?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 Feb 2015 10:56

Tuvaluan wrote:There are other ways to make the mofos in Greenpeace squeal surely.

The Greenpeace executive getting chucked out of the plane at the last moment, was a very strong message sent. That is India is not treating it lightly when Indians go on travel to bring back more problems to the country. It prove that the government is taking notice of such activities, and even pretty much know who are doing this. The lady could even have sent out a 100 page letter/statement with her cribs by India Post or courier - so that her point gets across. But the crux of the issue is that it signalled that GoI knew what was going on.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Feb 2015 12:08

Tuvaluan wrote:It is not within Katju's jurisdiction to make this call -- he can only interpret them, but that does not mean interpreting pakis as Indians, WTF. This stupid cretin was actually a chief justice?

A fit case for printouts of his judgements to be collectively rolled up and forcefully introduced into places where the sun don't shine so that such creeps are jailed for misuse of their official positions.

surely, this is a confession of judicial criminality and should suo moto be treated as such by converting them into criminal complaints.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Feb 2015 12:13

Sachin wrote:
Tuvaluan wrote:There are other ways to make the mofos in Greenpeace squeal surely.
The Greenpeace executive getting chucked out of the plane at the last moment, was a very strong message sent. That is India is not treating it lightly when Indians go on travel to bring back more problems to the country. It prove that the government is taking notice of such activities, and even pretty much know who are doing this. The lady could even have sent out a 100 page letter/statement with her cribs by India Post or courier - so that her point gets across. But the crux of the issue is that it signalled that GoI knew what was going on.

What right do other governments have to intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign India?? Who gave them such rights?? or are colonial assumptions and constructs still considered valid when dealing with native pagans and is simply wearing a tie the final epitome of intellectual and cultural supremacy??

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 18 Feb 2015 13:21

Chetak the fault here lies with the Indian people and the governments they have elected for not knowing the difference between a genuine NGO doing healthcare and a foreign funded body such as Greenpeace which is accountable to foreign governments. There is also a tendency for the Indian women who are associated with these groups to be in a physical relationship with the male western activists who run many of these groups. In much of South America, Asia, and Japan these groups are not tolerated; Greenpeace was literally chased out of Peru in December and there is a writ against it in the courts.
It is very difficult for an Indian to obtain a tourist or student visa to the UK without sponsorship therefore who sponsored her, why and could she and her group be prosecuted under the money laundering rules which are used against criminals, terrorists and businesses?
Finally the fact that the UK parliament does not take depositions from Greenpeace on mining in Aboriginal lands in Australia by BHP, fracking on Native American lands in North America, or for that matter pollution in Tibet by China speaks volumes and should encourage the GOI to take a stance on the plight of the Chagossian people.

http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... report-ibt

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Feb 2015 14:32

Dipanker wrote:So what purpose did the ban on her travel serve if the idea was to stop her from testifying?

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... ovt/881083

Pillai was off loaded on January 11 when she was on her way to London to meet UK lawmakers on domestic issues. However, she later addressed the gathering on 'Skype' video conference.

Orders of action can't be given by British publically to her through multimedia, they had to be given in person. That gets denied, she cannot claim the real reason for her trip.

Besides a message to the Media and NGO types that the West cant save them like The wife of Maoist about Liberal Western Democracies rescuing them.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 18 Feb 2015 20:36

Aditya_V wrote:
http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... ovt/881083

Pillai was off loaded on January 11 when she was on her way to London to meet UK lawmakers on domestic issues. However, she later addressed the gathering on 'Skype' video conference.

Orders of action can't be given by British publically to her through multimedia, they had to be given in person. That gets denied, she cannot claim the real reason for her trip.

Besides a message to the Media and NGO types that the West cant save them like The wife of Maoist about Liberal Western Democracies rescuing them.

The point is that she was still able to testify so the govt. could not stop her from doing so. IMO govt. action in this case was stupid and undemocratic. Dissent is essential component of democracy, if we suppress dissent then we do not have democracy anymore.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 18 Feb 2015 20:41

rgosain wrote:Finally the fact that the UK parliament does not take depositions from Greenpeace on mining in Aboriginal lands in Australia by BHP, fracking on Native American lands in North America, or for that matter pollution in Tibet by China speaks volumes and should encourage the GOI to take a stance on the plight of the Chagossian people.

Their standard defense to this one is 'we don't want you follow the West's path on environment. We wish good for you onlee'. Much of Indians don't see thru this plot and fall naively on GP's environmental concerns.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 18 Feb 2015 20:46

Dipanker wrote:The point is that she was still able to testify so the govt. could not stop her from doing so. IMO govt. action in this case was stupid and undemocratic. Dissent is essential component of democracy, if we suppress dissent then we do not have democracy anymore.

I guess you should also support the view that "If such depositions bring in sanctions regime or use these tactics for hedging against India in trade", you are completely fine with it and that India should fight off the sanctions? Cuz this what rNDTV show "WTP" (hosted by Burqa) finally concluded.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 18 Feb 2015 20:54

Is this dissent? Or is it anti national activity when she testifies against her country to the parliament of another country which has done and may still be doing much more to damage the environment than India has done, and when that country will later use that in negotiations on trade, to disadvantage India? And she knows it...

By my book, Pillai is a indulging in traitorous activity.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 18 Feb 2015 21:10

Agree with JEM. Pillai is basically providing human intel to foreign government to work against India in trade negotiations -- as a citizen of India, that is tantamount to traitorous activity. As people in the Goi have pointed out -- Pillai needs to work with the GoI if she wants to fix something wrong, instead of directly providing intel to foreign governments that will hurt India in WTO negotiations.

It is not surprising that Burkha Dutt finds nothing wrong with such anti-national behavior -- never quite understood Sri B.Raman's terrible judgement when it came to BD's ethics (or lack thereof, mainly) and unethical and politically motivated reportage over the years...but then she is hardly the only one in the New Delhi jounalist crowd (turdesai and his stupid wifey come to mind...)

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 18 Feb 2015 21:40

In their quest to demonize Modi, the left+fiberals+NGOs+sickulars are fast cascading from bad to worse to worst w.r.t protecting national interests. Sooner or later they will openly vouch for balkanization, and when questioned they will immediately shout 'GoI is crushing the dissent'. There's got to be some line drawn somewhere, where even these self-righteous fiberals can't cross.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 18 Feb 2015 22:02

skekatpuray wrote:
Dipanker wrote:The point is that she was still able to testify so the govt. could not stop her from doing so. IMO govt. action in this case was stupid and undemocratic. Dissent is essential component of democracy, if we suppress dissent then we do not have democracy anymore.
I guess you should also support the view that "If such depositions bring in sanctions regime or use these tactics for hedging against India in trade", you are completely fine with it and that India should fight off the sanctions? Cuz this what rNDTV show "WTP" (hosted by Burqa) finally concluded.

You have to be incredibly naive to think that Priya Pillai's testimony is the only way for outside world to know what goes inside India.

Secondly don't make assumptions on my behalf.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 18 Feb 2015 23:48

Dipanker wrote:You have to be incredibly naive to think that Priya Pillai's testimony is the only way for outside world to know what goes inside India.

Of course not, however it's about PP making formal deposition in front of UK parliamentarians, thus completing a formal process, which eventually would be used and held against India's interests. Visiting India casually, and/or doing some observations would never be deemed as official acknowledgment or actual fact-finding as evidence.

Dipanker wrote:Secondly don't make assumptions on my behalf.

Your argument talked of 'dissent' voice. It's not a casual conclusion, but well thought out spinster theory.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 18 Feb 2015 23:50

skekatpuray wrote:
Dipanker wrote:You have to be incredibly naive to think that Priya Pillai's testimony is the only way for outside world to know what goes inside India.
Of course not, however it's about PP making formal deposition in front of UK parliamentarians, thus completing a formal process, which eventually would be used and held against India's interests. Visiting India casually, and/or doing some observations would never be deemed as official acknowledgment or actual fact-finding as evidence.

Dipanker wrote:Secondly don't make assumptions on my behalf.

I shouldn't have but your argument talked of 'dissent' voice. It's not a casual conclusion, but well thought out spinster theory by the media.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 18 Feb 2015 23:51

Dipanker wrote:You have to be incredibly naive to think that PP's testimony is the only way for outside world to know what goes inside India.

Of course not, however it's about PP making formal deposition in front of UK parliamentarians, thus completing a formal process, which eventually would be used and held against India's interests. Visiting India casually, and/or doing some observations would never be deemed as official acknowledgment or actual fact-finding as evidence.

Dipanker wrote:Secondly don't make assumptions on my behalf.

I shouldn't have but your argument talked of 'dissent' voice. It's not a casual conclusion, but well thought out spinster theory by the media. Funny how stopping her from going abroad was termed as 'dissent', not while she monkeyed up on top of Essar building.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 19 Feb 2015 00:25

skekatpuray wrote: Of course not, however it's about PP making formal deposition in front of UK parliamentarians, thus completing a formal process, which eventually would be used and held against India's interests. Visiting India casually, and/or doing some observations would never be deemed as official acknowledgment or actual fact-finding as evidence.

You are giving too much credit to PP's testimony, and I don't see how PP's testimony in person makes the process "formal", and even if we for a moment assume that it does, then her testimony via Skype serves the same purpose, doesn't it? Or do you consider her testimony via Skye less "formal"?

Again it is wrong assumption to that British or any other foreign govt. needs testimony from Indian citizen who does not agree with Indian govt. policy, to act against Indian interest. You should understand that if any of these govt. wanted to act against Indian interests, it would do so regardless.

PP is not privy to anything which is not already known , it all public domain knowledge, routinely reported in media. British parliamentary committee does not need PP educate them, it can get the same information from N number of sources.

So banning her from testifying person serves no purpose other than suppressing dissent, which to me is bigger danger to Indian democracy than PP's testimony.

I shouldn't have but your argument talked of 'dissent' voice. It's not a casual conclusion, but well thought out spinster theory by the media. Funny how stopping her from going abroad was termed as 'dissent', not while she monkeyed up on top of Essar building.

Again you are making the same mistake, you are making assumptions.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 19 Feb 2015 00:33

It is not PP's testimony that is the problem here --- raising public awareness of those issues in the Indian public is dissent and the GoI people noted, Medha Patkar and others have actively dissented against the govt. and the govt. did not stop them from speaking out. So let us cut the nonsense that PP not being allowed to fly out of the country is equivalent to stifling dissent -- she did get to speak freely over skype, did she not? So how does any of this suggest that her dissent is being stifled -- isn't that just incorrect hyperbole that flies in the face of facts?

What is not acceptable is her giving "testimony" about the ground status about a troubled region of India to a foreign government -- how do we know what transpires between a foreign govt. and a her on foreign soil, and how do we know that such things will not have repercussion on the ground in an already troubled state?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 19 Feb 2015 03:14

Tuvaluan wrote:It is not PP's testimony that is the problem here --- raising public awareness of those issues in the Indian public is dissent and the GoI people noted, Medha Patkar and others have actively dissented against the govt. and the govt. did not stop them from speaking out. So let us cut the nonsense that PP not being allowed to fly out of the country is equivalent to stifling dissent -- she did get to speak freely over skype, did she not? So how does any of this suggest that her dissent is being stifled -- isn't that just incorrect hyperbole that flies in the face of facts?

What is not acceptable is her giving "testimony" about the ground status about a troubled region of India to a foreign government -- how do we know what transpires between a foreign govt. and a her on foreign soil, and how do we know that such things will not have repercussion on the ground in an already troubled state?

Attempt to suppress dissent stems from denying her the fundamental rights granted by constitution
of India, offloading her from a plane was unconstitutional, that to me is the more serious problem in the context.

Here are some updates on the case BTW:
Can revoke curb on Priya Pillai on receipt of undertaking, Centre tells court

The Union government told the Delhi High Court on Wednesday that a lookout circular issued against Greenpeace India activist Priya Pillai would be withdrawn if she gave an undertaking not to make submissions about rights violations in India before a British Parliamentary Committee.

Apparently GOI is unaware that she already testified??

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 19 Feb 2015 03:24

Dipanker wrote: Attempt to suppress dissent stems from denying her the fundamental rights granted by constitution
of India, offloading her from a plane was unconstitutional, that to me is the more serious problem in the context.

No one has suppressed a damn thing other than her ability to testify before foreign governments that have an agenda to screw with India, repeating something false does not make it right the second time around. PP did make her presentation over skype and the people in britain heard her (along with indian intel too, I am sure), so her dissent has been noted. What has been supressed is mischiefmongering by a foreign NGO called greenpeace and that's about it.

As for her "fundamental rights granted by the constutution" being violated, that is a fascinating claim. Can you quote which article of the constitution disallows a government from unloading someone from a plane for whatever reason? Before you respond in generalities with some nonsense about "freedom of speech" or "political expression", let me state that the Indian constitution places "reasonable restrictions" on such things leaving the field wide open for what is considered "reasonable".

The arms of govt. are given wide powers that can be challenged in courts for the precise reason that they get to make a judgement call on what constitutes a threat to the Republic based on reality as they know it, which can be very different from reality from the perspective of a civilian due to asymmetry in information about what may or may not constitute a threat to national security.

The IB has acknowledged that it forced her out of the plane because they considered her a threat to security, and even if that was bad judgement on their part to do so, the law is behind them in their interpretation of "reasonable" or "etc." (in this particular case, allegedly).

I consider the lack of a decent cup of coffee for under 5 Rs. as a serious problem for future generations and the future of the country. Just adding it in for good measure since we seem to be throwing about random opinions as to what constitutes a "serious problem" for India's future.

Apparently GOI is unaware that she already testified??

The context is allowing her to physically get out of the country where a lot more things can be done in secret other than just testifying to some committee in the UK parliament.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 19 Feb 2015 06:38

Tuvaluan wrote:
Dipanker wrote: Attempt to suppress dissent stems from denying her the fundamental rights granted by constitution
of India, offloading her from a plane was unconstitutional, that to me is the more serious problem in the context.
No one has suppressed a damn thing other than her ability to testify before foreign governments that have an agenda to screw with India, repeating something false does not make it right the second time around. PP did make her presentation over skype and the people in britain heard her (along with indian intel too, I am sure), so her dissent has been noted. What has been supressed is mischiefmongering by a foreign NGO called greenpeace and that's about it.

As for her "fundamental rights granted by the constutution" being violated, that is a fascinating claim. Can you quote which article of the constitution disallows a government from unloading someone from a plane for whatever reason? Before you respond in generalities with some nonsense about "freedom of speech" or "political expression", let me state that the Indian constitution places "reasonable restrictions" on such things leaving the field wide open for what is considered "reasonable".

The arms of govt. are given wide powers that can be challenged in courts for the precise reason that they get to make a judgement call on what constitutes a threat to the Republic based on reality as they know it, which can be very different from reality from the perspective of a civilian due to asymmetry in information about what may or may not constitute a threat to national security.

The IB has acknowledged that it forced her out of the plane because they considered her a threat to security, and even if that was bad judgement on their part to do so, the law is behind them in their interpretation of "reasonable" or "etc." (in this particular case, allegedly).

I consider the lack of a decent cup of coffee for under 5 Rs. as a serious problem for future generations and the future of the country. Just adding it in for good measure since we seem to be throwing about random opinions as to what constitutes a "serious problem" for India's future.

Apparently GOI is unaware that she already testified??
The context is allowing her to physically get out of the country where a lot more things can be done in secret other than just testifying to some committee in the UK parliament.

Since at this point by your own admission you are offering random opinion, I am gonna skip addressing them individually. You have made your point, which is of course regurgitation of govt. pov., something I do not agree with in this case, and I have made mine.

Just one point, if govt. was within its rights, and within the laws, there wont be any controversy and we won't be debating this in the first place.

The case is in the courts and we will hear a verdict soon, let us see what happens. And I am certainly no expert on Indian constitution so I will refer you to someone who is, Soli Sorabjee! I am sure you are familiar with the name, he was attorney general in Atal Bihari Vajpayee govt.

Listen to him what he has to say, you can safely ignore the blabbering from the rest of the panel, I did.

To The Point: Is Govt Affidavit In Priya Pillai Case Unconstitutional?

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 19 Feb 2015 07:03

You have made your point, which is of course regurgitation of govt. pov., something I do not agree with in this case, and I have made mine.

Removing PP off a plane certainly does not violate "constitutional rights" constitutional rights of an Indian, and you can't seem to specify what exactly those constitutional rights are yourself, one can presume you were just making it all up. Moving on, the constitution is far from perfect and pretty flawed, and I disagree with large parts of it, but that is not the point here.

PP being removed from the plane because her ticket was funded by GP which was on some FCRA watchlist, and that has nothing to do with her "constitutional rights". This is was considered a violation of the FCRA rules that were recently passed in the parliament that was allegedly enforced by IB, which has nothing to do with PP's constitutional rights. No one has a constitutional right to fly whereever they want, especially if there proven intent to prejudice and hurt public interest.

Just one point, if govt. was within its rights, and within the laws, there wont be any controversy and we won't be debating this in the first place.

Laws are usually written imperfectly leaving room for ambiguity in interpretation, so no, there is nothing that says that just because the govt. considers its interpretation right, there will not be any controversy. The courts exist for clearing the ambiguity, which is the whole point. So summarily,

1. there are laws that are not perfectly written
2. govt. interprets these laws to its benefit depending on what it considers is allowable interpretation
3. the courts exist to remove any ambiguity and deal a resolution one way or another.

None of this means that PP's rights are being violated or the govt. is "within its rights". As for speaking the govt.'s POV, I am glad to not support anti-national activity of some traitor working for some dubious NGO and providing intel to a foreign govt. and hurting Indian trade interests, which in turn could well affect the very people the likes PP are pretending to represent, and not in a good way.

The following quote is from a rediff article:

Priya has been working with local communities in Mahan, who oppose the setting up of an impending coal plant by Essar Energy (a company registered in UK) and Hindalco (Aditya Birla Group in India). Greenpeace India made no secret of the fact that it was opposed to the setting up of coal-based thermal power plants for environmental and other reasons.

She was going assist in hurting UK companies that were willing to set up a power plant in India from setting up such a plant in India -- which may not even be in the UK's interests for that matter. An energy shortage in India does not help the poor people in Mahan in any way at all -- to start any sort of economic activity you need energy, so yeah, I am pretty okay with PP being thrown off the plane and whatever else is thrown her way if she continues to push GP's agenda.

On the one hand we have hundreds of millions of poor Indians with no access to energy or clean water, and unable to lead a quality life, and we have people like Priya Pillai reporting to foreign governments on how to screw India by stopping projects in these underdeveloped areas that will help improve the local economy and whining because they are unable to do so. On the balance, denying PP's rights to assist in the quality of life of the 100s of millions whose life will be touched by an improving economy is the right balance, but that is not a legal opinion which is what matters.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Feb 2015 07:59

Meanwhile adding a gentle note that such mischievous "testimonies" or similar activities are not necessarily initiated by the host government itself...for instance a paki sympathizing bunch can do it..further the tip off as to the exact nature of this may well come quietly from the Brits themselves. It's another matter that, if the testimony was made, at some point in the future the same government may find it in its negotiating brief and use it.... But the nature of the indo-British relationship does not preclude such casual collusion and cooperation now and then, one can be reasonably sure...

These sorts of comprehensively intertwined relationships are not by their nature neat and tidy with i's dotted and t's crossed at all times...

Just because greenpeace's self-declared goal is to save the world from humans, particularly Indians and Chinese it seems, that by itself is not an unquestionable truth. I think such organizations are quickly undermined and their causes rapidly co-opted and aligned to state interests, assuming they are not expressly set up for the purpose of moral needling and subversion in the first place. And even if none of this is true, it is inconceivable that intelligence agencies have no sources of information and providers of influence within these groups. Ms. Pillai is probably not one of ours.

As for the constitutionality of it, let the courts decide. Remember that whatever the information against her, it may not be fully disclosed because it may have to reveal sources. Sometimes democratic governments would rather lose a case than disclose sources - even to its own courts.

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 19 Feb 2015 10:25

http://www.alterinter.org/spip.php?article4299

Interesting list , a mix of a few knowns and many unknown figures
Methinks thou dost protest too much!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Feb 2015 20:31

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 300606.cms

NEW DELHI: The Delhi Police crime branch arrested five people on charges of leaking or trying to get documents on policy matters of different ministries on Thursday. Till the latest news, few corporate houses were also raided by the Delhi Police in this regard.

Some of them have been accused of leaking confidential information to business houses to tweak government's policy decisions.

Two are ministry officials, three are intermediaries among the arrested.

A journalist has been detained and is being interrogated for some classified documents found in his possession.

The accused were already under surveillance by the Central government.

Petroleum minister Dharmedra Pradhan reportedly said that it was a common practice for the papers to be leaked earlier, and such things happened openely under the previous UPA government. But the new government has put some strict measures in this regard and the condition has improved.

Watch this space as more termites will be kicked out.