India Nuclear News And Discussion

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GuruPrabhu
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

chaanakya wrote:Wind Power installed capacity in India is 13065 MW ( grid connected) in comparison to Nuclear Power of 4780 MW.
Sir-ji, why not post the entire story? I will help you out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_India

Despite the high installed capacity, the actual utilization of wind power in India is low because policy incentives are geared towards installation rather than operation of the plants. This is why only 1.6% of actual power production in India comes from wind although the installed capacity is 6%. The government is considering the addition of incentives for ongoing operation of installed wind power plants.
So, the wind industry is looking for a Babu bail-out with subsidies? A mere 1.6% for wind compared to 3-4% for nuclear. Please google with care.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Should be careful with that.That quote refers to a dead link.

I referred to MOP site. capacity utilisation depends on factors
such as power Evacuation scheduling , PPA and local regulatory issues, lower capacity turbines ,variable winds at lower heights etc. But is it you point that it can not be improved or looked into.
Or that Coal, fossil or nuclear are running at 100 CUF in India?
Do wind turbines cause 30 km evacuation zone in case of terminal failure?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

chaanakya wrote:Should be careful with that.That quote refers to a dead link.

I referred to MOP site.
Feel free to look at as many sites as you like. Max PLF for wind is usually taken as 20%. Typical operational numbers are closer to 15%.
Or that Coal, fossil or nuclear are running at 100 CUF in India?
Yup, nuke is closer to 100 than to 20. The nook deal made our reactors get their PLF into the 60s in 2010. I believe that it has improved further since then.

http://dst.gov.in/whats_new/press-relea ... 2010_4.htm
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^On wind power, besides PLF, which is in the 15-20% range, the extent of govt subsidies is HUGE...It is no surprise that the Suzlon and the wind power sector in India took off the year an extensive package of tax breaks were announced for the wind sector (forget which yeats, sometime in the late '90s/early '00s)....Last, and I dont see any answer to this question, for either solar or wind, it is NOT a base load source! Not yet, even with 13000 MW capacity...If anything, importantly very soon, we will run out of a requirement for wind power, as the peak load economics will not be good enough for real peak load demand..Which means? More subsidies!

On our nuke planst, Guruprabhu-ji, the impact of the nuke deal is laready being felt..PLFs are upto 70% this year!
http://www.npcil.nic.in/main/AllProject ... splay.aspx
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

Wonder how this got missed out in the discussions...R Rajaraman on the dangers of panic...

http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/09/stories ... 981600.htm
In the Fukushima case, the radiation measured even as near as 50 km from the plant was 0.1 to 0.7 micro-seiverts/ hour. Continued exposure to that dosage even for a whole year would be less radiation than one CT scan.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Amber G. wrote: My guess (actually much more than a guess) would be, per KWH, cleanup cost after a blowup , for current Solar panels would be of the order of 100 times (or more) a typical nuclear one.
Any reference for this ratio of 100? I did google but could not get much. There was one paper from Science magazine:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/285/5428/692.full.pdf
An issue that has caused a considerable amount of debate is the toxicity of cadmium (53). On one hand, CdTe is, as a compound, very stable and probably nontoxic. There are, however, definite environmental hazards and safety issues related to the production of CdTe modules: the release of cadmium into the atmosphere in the case of fire, and the recycling of CdTe modules. Although these issues seem, in principle, manageable for a well-organized and politically stable industrialized country, this may not be the case for developing countries
Abhishek - ratio of 100 was my guess, based mainly upon discussion I had with my son (who, when he was in MIT, took a course with the hotshot energy guy - and IIRC had worked on some kind of device for his Masters's thesis ). The ratio of 100, from my guess, and rough calculation is on the low side.

You may wish to contact MIT professor (or any other expert) in addition to goggling. Cadmium in toys is most hazard we have seen recently (much much more toxic that lead) and cleanup is pretty hard.

You may also run up your own calculations from open sources (like how much cadmium needed per KWH) and see if your calculations give figure close to me or not.

This may be a good starting point:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoHS
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

Purush wrote:
Sanku wrote: Are you seriously telling me that there is no difference between debate (which btw includes a whole host of doyens of Indian nuclear establishment, esp those for big bums) and attempts to decry nuclear at all costs?
Debate? Logic?
The onlee takeaway from the posts of the anti-nuke brigade in the 2 threads is that " Nuclear is bad onlee. We are all going to die from radiation onlee ".
No semblance of debate is visible despite attempts by several posters to provide material for debate/analysis.
A take away eventually depends on the person taking away so, what can I do about that.
Logically if a nuclear power reactor is dangerous for India, so is a weapons reactor and the nuclear warheads that are 'ready to go'.

So, I ask again, is it the long-term goal of the anti-nuclear lobby to CRE the Indian Nuclear Weapons program?
:lol: BRF can only have one agenda, to share knowledge. That at best. Often fails.

Lets take a reality check here.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

6%+ of all power generate by NTPC is wasted because of Grid management issues.

Considering that salivating over Nuclear power sounds something only some one with a very vested interest would do.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Let's say 6% of GOI budget is pocketed by Babus. Then it follows that is silly to salivate over a 6% GDP growth.

Similarly, salivating over 1.6% share of wind energy must please the Babu brigade doling out the subsidies. Much much vested interest moolah to be made there.

Since DAE comes directly under the PM and the head is a non-Babu, it must really irk the Babu brigade. What a loss of moolah making potential in Nuke sector. What a waste!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Okay, how about using bio-mass generated by NPP. Fungus from Fukushima?
(Without comments)
Dark Power: Fungus seems to put radiation to good use
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Amber G. wrote:[
Abhishek - ratio of 100 was my guess, based mainly upon discussion I had with my son (who, when he was in MIT, took a course with the hotshot energy guy - and IIRC had worked on some kind of device for his Masters's thesis ). The ratio of 100, from my guess, and rough calculation is on the low side.

You may wish to contact MIT professor (or any other expert) in addition to goggling. Cadmium in toys is most hazard we have seen recently (much much more toxic that lead) and cleanup is pretty hard.

You may also run up your own calculations from open sources (like how much cadmium needed per KWH) and see if your calculations give figure close to me or not.

This may be a good starting point:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoHS
No books/papers? Just wiki and personal communication? Okay. Thanks.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

Green energy project poses threat to wildlife in Maharashtra

[quote]
Activists allege that over 3 lakh trees have been cut to construct a 20 km-long road

Development projects in the ecologically sensitive region of Western Ghats in Maharashtra have been under the green activists' scanner for long. Activists allege that this time the culprit is a seemingly innocent wind power project.

. . .

Blasting is being carried out in the Kharpud region, by contract labourers. They say work has been going on for the last three months, and roads are being built through the mountains. Enercon does not have the permission to carry out blasting in the region, as clarified in a letter by the Pune Collector

Image

. . .

Madhav Gadgil, noted ecologist and the chairman of the WGEEP is aware of this debate. The site inspection, scheduled on April 14, will clarify the issues to the panel. “The panel will look at the environmental issues and the broader policy issues concerning windmills. The large scale implications of such projects will be studied,” Mr. Gadgil says.

[/quote]
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Amber G. wrote:[
Abhishek - ratio of 100 was my guess, based mainly upon discussion ...<snip>
No books/papers? Just wiki and personal communication? Okay. Thanks.
You are welcome. Indeed, as said before it was my guess to the question you posed. Minor corrections a) No wiki is involved. (Wiki link was, as said, may be something you may be interested to get your own answer) b) I am responsible for my guess (if there is an error it is not personal communication's fault). And no, I have not written any paper or book regarding this, neither I have seen or read any book or figures.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Got it.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Let's say 6% of GOI budget is pocketed by Babus. Then it follows that is silly to salivate over a 6% GDP growth.
Guruprabhu-ji, question is, where does the magic "6%" number come from? And why is it only for NTPC generation?

and the issues around "% of power" is a bit strange...Till 7-8 years back, the same "%" was quite small for wind, almost non-existant for gas..
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Purush »

Sanku wrote: :lol: BRF can only have one agenda, to share knowledge.
You're 'sharing knowledge' now? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Anyway, continue with your 'knowledge sharing' :lol: let others not get in the way.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

Purush wrote:
Sanku wrote: :lol: BRF can only have one agenda, to share knowledge.
You're 'sharing knowledge' now? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Anyway, continue with your 'knowledge sharing' :lol: let others not get in the way.
Excellent idea. I would be great if people stop coming in only to make "special tippani" on other posters. If folks don't have anything to say, dont say it here.

[quoteh="GuruPrabhu"]Let's say 6% of GOI budget is pocketed by Babus. Then it follows that is silly to salivate over a 6% GDP growth. [/quote]

You are beginning to get it, almost, so yes, if 6% GDP growth can be achieved by cracking down on corruption, salivating over that 6% by any means including selling Kashmir to Pakistan for it is misplaced.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Abhishek: Just curious, what is your guess/estimate?
wrt:
What is the cost comparison for cleaning up after a nuke reactor has its top blown off (risk % available with Vina saar) vs. a bunch of Solar panel blowing up?
Take plants which generate similar power. (Will also appreciate if could share your thought process/basis to arrive at that estimate.)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Sanku wrote:You are beginning to get it, almost, so yes, if 6% GDP growth can be achieved by cracking down on corruption, salivating over that 6% by any means including selling Kashmir to Pakistan for it is misplaced.
I am getting nothing. Your "knowledge sharing" has a fatal flaw. GDP increase is an year upon year thing. If you get 6% one year from Babu crackdown on Babus, what happens the following year? Where will the additional 6% now come from? And then the following year and so on? Please look up "growth rate" and you may still get it.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Amber G. wrote:Abhishek: Just curious, what is your guess/estimate?
My question was based on information which shows that the liability in the case of a nuclear accident would be huge. Why do I believe so? See here, here, here and here. Note that 3 out of 4 articles are from Nature, so we can assume that they are fair and balanced.

Regarding solar energy: A quick search of Nature and Science magazines shows that people are not much concerned about the safety aspects of CdTe. For example, in this article, this issue is not even discussed/mentioned. Technically, it could be more dangerous than nuclear. But that would be a very well-kept secret. People protest about all kinds of issues (for example: dams), but they have been remarkably silent about the ill-effects of CdTe (and solar energy). It could be a case of massive public ignorance. I am not sure.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^Not sure if accidents in "solar" are a big issue..But accidents in hydel are, and I havent seen anyone asking Tehri to take out a 10000000000000 billion dollar third party insurance...

the question of insuring against black swans are a bit of a red herring...The reason some events are classified as "black swans" is because they cannot be assigned a probability to, or an estimation of, and hence taking out an insurance against it is a bit of a non sequitor..
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

^^^ Along these lines, why don't municipal corporations in Indian cities take out $1T liability insurance against an incidence of Plague?

The Indian state kills its citizens in a multitude of ways. And by the thousands. I had earlier posted some examples.

However, the score for nukes is still ZERO. Go figure.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

George Monbiot is explosive - no pun intended...I had posted an earlier article by him explaining his conversion froma nuclear-neutral to a "convert", post Fukushima..

Now, he details the "vested interests" in his erstwhile grouping!

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?271231
Dr Caldicott is the world’s foremost anti-nuclear campaigner. She has received 21 honorary degrees and scores of awards, and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize(2). Like other greens, I was in awe of her. In the debate she made some striking statements about the dangers of radiation. So I did what anyone faced with questionable scientific claims should do: I asked for the sources. Caldicott’s response has profoundly shaken me.

First she sent me nine documents: newspaper articles, press releases and an advertisement. None were scientific publications; none contained sources for the claims she had made. But one of the press releases referred to a report by the US National Academy of Sciences, which she urged me to read. I have now done so – all 423 pages(3). It supports none of the statements I questioned: in fact it strongly contradicts her claims about the health effects of radiation.
For the past 25 years, anti-nuclear campaigners have been racking up the figures for deaths and diseases caused by the Chernobyl disaster, and parading deformed babies like a mediaevel circus. They now claim that 985,000 people have been killed by Chernobyl, and that it will continue to slaughter people for generations to come. These claims are false.

The UN Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (Unscear) is the equivalent of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
----------------------
Of the workers who tried to contain the emergency at Chernobyl, 134 suffered acute radiation syndrome; 28 died soon afterwards. Nineteen others died later, but generally not from diseases associated with radiation(6). The remaining 87 have suffered other complications, included four cases of solid cancer and two of leukaemia. In the rest of the population, there have been 6,848 cases of thyroid cancer among young children, arising “almost entirely” from the Soviet Union’s failure to prevent people from drinking milk contaminated with iodine 131(7). Otherwise, “there has been no persuasive evidence of any other health effect in the general population that can be attributed to radiation exposure.”(8) People living in the countries affected today “need not live in fear of serious health consequences from the Chernobyl accident.”(9)
The coup de resistance..
Failing to provide sources, refuting data with anecdote, cherry-picking studies, scorning the scientific consensus, invoking a cover-up to explain it: all this is horribly familiar
Sounds familiar?!! :twisted:
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

From: World Nuclear News, 08 April, 2011
Tsunami countermeasures for Kashiwazaki Kariwa

Image
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Low level radiation study at Oakridge. Older people appear at greater risk.

Image
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Low level radiation study at Oakridge. Older people appear at greater risk.
Is that, perhaps, because older folks indulge in unhealthy practices like health check-ups?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

somnath wrote:^^^Not sure if accidents in "solar" are a big issue..But accidents in hydel are, and I havent seen anyone asking Tehri to take out a 10000000000000 billion dollar third party insurance...

the question of insuring against black swans are a bit of a red herring...The reason some events are classified as "black swans" is because they cannot be assigned a probability to, or an estimation of, and hence taking out an insurance against it is a bit of a non sequitor..
Somnath,

The Tehri example is a good point. I had earlier posted some information which showed that Tehri would not be able to withstand an earthquake higher than 8.5 in magnitude. This means that if that 9.0 had an epicentre within 130 km (why this number? Check the epicentre for the 9.0 we've discussing) from the dam, it would have burst with unimaginable consequences.

Experts say that it's unlikely there's going to be a 9.0 in that area and I hope that they are right. But then experts did not expect the 9.0 + tsunami in Japan also.

Going by the logic displayed here, shouldn't we prepare for a Black Swan even in Tehri by taking out suitable insurance? Would some folks like to guess what kind of insurance we should take out?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

chaanakya wrote:1. I am not quite sure if plant survived in the sense it could be worked again. But that depends what you meant by "survival". There was partial meltdown, but then it is not the end of the world story as we all know. Japanese have done well despite all odds.
Chaanakya,

Sorry for a late reply to your post, was away for a few days.

Your reading is wrong. The plant would have survived if the auxiliary generators had not been knocked out after the power line went. All available information shows that the cooling rods were inserted automatically once the earthquake struck and the reactors went into automatic shutdown mode, as indeed did other reactors in Japan.

If the tsunami hadn't struck, it's pretty obvious that the chain reaction that occurred with the hydrogen explosions etc would most probably have not happened. Note that didn't happen in any of the plants in Japan which did not have their auxiliary power units taken out.

So my original contention that the basic reactor survived despite a quake 7-8 time greater than the design tolerance limits stands. The 40-year Gen I design proved remarkably rugged. I would assume today's Gen III would be even more rugged.
Presently it is at 2.5 % so I don't know what options are foregone?
Yes presently it's in that range but why do you suppose that it's going to stay at that range for all times to come?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Sanku wrote:You are beginning to get it, almost, so yes, if 6% GDP growth can be achieved by cracking down on corruption, salivating over that 6% by any means including selling Kashmir to Pakistan for it is misplaced.
I am getting nothing. Your "knowledge sharing" has a fatal flaw. GDP increase is an year upon year thing. If you get 6% one year from Babu crackdown on Babus, what happens the following year? Where will the additional 6% now come from? And then the following year and so on? Please look up "growth rate" and you may still get it.


Tchh, it seems that basic maths including concept of % is also missing.

When you say corruption reduces 6% of GDP, obviously it means it does so every year, year after year, so for every % growth of GDP 6% is lost to corruption.

So first year 6%, next year, GDP growth rate * 6%.

Did you really have to ask that?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Sanatanan wrote:[quote="In page 85, amit-ji"]

I think it's time you guys clearly stated what you think should be the key takeaway from Fukushima for India. Should it abandon the nuclear option? Should it take cognizance of the failures - real and imaginary - at Fukushima and design more robust nuclear reactors?


In the context of the discussions taking place now in this thread, I am not quite sure whether the above question was meant to be rhetorical or not. Here I have assumed that it is not.

To me the question above was thought provoking, and so I have tried to cast my vote as follows:[/quote]

Hi Sanatanan ji,

Again apologies for a late reply. My question/statement was not rhetorical at all. It was a genuine attempt to steer the discussion to a more relevant direction. I'm glad that you posted what you did as IMHO that's the kind of thing we should discuss.

Now some comments on the points you detailed.
Evolution and consequent detailed design, manufacture, construction and operation of NPPs should be (and as far as I am concerned, is) a continuing process, even without any reference to Fukushima. If it were not so, Dr. AK et al would not have come up, a few years ago, with the AHWR concept that uses passive heat removal even during normal full power operation. (That I think implementation of this particular idea may be found unviable and that at some point of time in future they may re-introduce pumps for circulating the coolant through the reactor core, might be irrelevant to the concept of continual evolution of NPP designs that I am discussing here). Therefore, taking the appropriate lessons from Fukushima and not only incorporating them in future designs, but also straining as much as possible to back-fit them in existing designs is the way forward. Such exercises were carried out in the wake of Chernobyl and TMI, and must have been done after the Narora fire and other similar incidents.

As far as India is concerned, for reasons I have been attempting to articulate in this thread so far, I vote for continuing the line of PHWRs that we have developed and proceed forward with the steps we are taking in relation to indigenous FBRs and Thorium fuelled FBRs / PHWRs / AHWRs.
Fully agree with you on this point.
For me, import of NPPs must be shunned, because I firmly believe that (i) such imports will inhibit indigenous technology development and, (ii) LWRs are not neutron economical. I note that India has already developed LWR technology at a much more difficult level - namely, compact LWR, suitable for incorporation inside the confines of a submarine. Again, I am not a believer in the new-found need (post nuclear deal), for 40,000 MWe of nuclear capacity addition sought to be justified by Dr. AK as mere "additionality" thereby implying that we can very well afford to do without. However, DAE may have to go quite a distance yet on some other issues -- to me, the implementation of a "sterilised zone" around a reactor site is anathema and impinges on societal aspirations. I understand no other country in the world has it.
IMO, the nuclear deal was as much to get access to uranium as it was to get access to LWRs. I posted this report a few days ago. Assuming it's true then our nuclear power plants are running at 100 per cent capacity thanks to imports.
In the financial year ending March 31 — the first full year of renewed uranium imports — power generation through nuclear energy was in excess of 26.4 billion units, an increase of over 40 per cent compared to the previous year, and more than the target for this year.

Every one of the country’s nine nuclear plants that are under IAEA safeguards — and thus eligible to use imported fuel — is now running at 100 per cent capacity.

Some others, like unit 4 in Kaiga, are also operating at full capacity. On an average, reactors outside of IAEA safeguards — and running only on domestic fuel — are operating at 75-80 per cent capacity.
The other idea behind the Nook deal, IMHO, was getting access to foreign technology. Do note if everything goes according to plan, then we'll be importing reactors from the US, France and the Russians. Surely there's a lot learn from that?

Finally I think the idea behind the nook deal and imports is not to kill our 3-stage plan and PHWRs, AHWRs and FBRs. On the contrary I think the whole idea is to take pressure off them so that the difficult technology can be mastered.

Remember at the end of the day the 3-stage is not a scientific experiment. The idea is to generate electricity. But we've seen efficient generation will take time. If we just depended on indigenously developed reactors we'd remain dependent on fossil fuels and would not get the benefits of nuclear. Parallel import of 1,000MW LWRs, which would operate under international safeguards and fuel, gives more electricity from nuclear and at the same time frees up the pressure to deliver at all cost on our design efforts.

I don't anyone has talked about abandoning the 3-stage and just depending on imported LWRs.

JMT and all that.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

***Deleted after reading JEM's post ***

Yes let's stick to facts.
Last edited by amit on 11 Apr 2011 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

There's a risk of things getting seriously personal and overboard. I recommend a step back and breather for all concerned. Highly.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

^^ amit answer in relevant thread
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

chaanakya wrote:Well I think in its present status it is as good as gone. That's what I meant by "survived".

Yes it could have survived Tsunami had it been prepared for it. Clearly it wasn't. Few other plants seem to have done better.
Not being prepared for the Tsunami is correct, if you looked at my previous post I had said essentially the same thing. But that's because, IMO, the civil engineering of the plant was faulty. Surely they could have put those generators at higher ground or built higher walls? Either way this has nothing to do with the basic reactor design, the point I made.
I don't know where I presupposed that it would remain at 2.5%?
Your exact words were: "Presently it is at 2.5% so I don't know what options are forgone?"

Doesn't that mean you think that 2.5% will be the range in future as well because here the only option available is future growth that would occur if all those 1000 MW plants are actually imported and run? If that's not what you meant then I have to say you were not very clear on what you really meant.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^The point on "share of energy" is completely moot...What was the share of wind 10 years back? To be sure, what is the "actual" share of energy (in terms of produced power, not installed)? Its 1.6%...

http://southasia.oneworld.net/todayshea ... ind-energy

So is it worth spending so much time (and yes, thousands of crores of tax subsidies) on wind? Or is it just hot air!?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

somnath wrote:^^^The point on "share of energy" is completely moot...What was the share of wind 10 years back? To be sure, what is the "actual" share of energy (in terms of produced power, not installed)? Its 1.6%...

http://southasia.oneworld.net/todayshea ... ind-energy

So is it worth spending so much time (and yes, thousands of crores of tax subsidies) on wind? Or is it just hot air!?

The whole issue boils to the point that's being repeatedly hammered. That is if we want to do anything about our energy deficit and we continue to grow (with its attendant spike in energy needs) we have to look at all forms of energy be it fossil, hydel, renewable and nuclear.

We cannot argue with any conviction that let's forgo nuclear because wind, solar etc can take the slack.

Just to reiterate, only nuclear and coal and to some extent gas can assure us of long-term high baseload generation. Wind, solar and even hydel cannot do that all the year round.

Peakload is only useful if it sits on top of highly reliable baseload.

All the arguments against nuclear has not been able to answer the question of what can substitute nuclear for high baseload generation? More dirty coal-fired plants than are necessary, anyone?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

Some estimates of the cost of nuke power in the US, as well as PLFs...

http://mageep.wustl.edu/Program2010/Pre ... eserve.pdf

The only source that is comparable as a baseload source today is coal....Should we give up the only viable alternative to coal just like that? For fear of the known unknowns? :wink:
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

somnath wrote:Some estimates of the cost of nuke power in the US, as well as PLFs...

http://mageep.wustl.edu/Program2010/Pre ... eserve.pdf

The only source that is comparable as a baseload source today is coal....Should we give up the only viable alternative to coal just like that? For fear of the known unknowns? :wink:
As the Monbiot article you quoted earlier shows, such small details don't interest Green warriors.

Incidentally, IMO, Green warriors who are on constant jehad against nuclear are not laughed out of the room and, in fact, tolerated because they serve a useful purpose as a side show to their belligerence. And that is they serve as useful, even if unaware, foot soilders for the non proliferation Ayatollahs.

Note: Helen Caldicott, whom Monbiot mentioned as the world's foremost Green campaigner, happens to a very prominent NPA. Coincidence?

Purush Mian's simple question enraged one of our Green warriors but it's very pertinent to the discussion. If we don't go the nuclear way because they are unsafe itadyi then under what rationale can we run the plants which produce the maal for our nuclear weapons?

Hypothetically, for example, let's say we abandon Kudankulam, as Theo wants, citing safety concerns, nuclear is bad etc. Isn't it the next logical step for the Green warrior idols like Suzzane, Medha Pathkar, Sandeep (what's his name?), etc to launch a new agitation demanding the closure of the weapons grade maal producing plants? After all they are also technically nook power plants which can suffer from the dreaded meltdown.

Are you going to tell people living in the 20 km radius or whatever of these plants that they're expendable while folks living in the 20 km of Kudankulam are not?

Sorry all the hoo haa by the wannabe Green warriors on this forum is not only based on dodgy science, it's also based on ignorance that happens when things are not thought through to the logical conclusion.

JMT and all that.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

amit wrote: Doesn't that mean you think that 2.5% will be the range in future as well because here the only option available is future growth that would occur if all those 1000 MW plants are actually imported and run? If that's not what you meant then I have to say you were not very clear on what you really meant.

I don't know how can you say that Nuclear is the ONLY available option. But if that is what you think well I have nothing to add.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

chaanakya wrote:
amit wrote: Doesn't that mean you think that 2.5% will be the range in future as well because here the only option available is future growth that would occur if all those 1000 MW plants are actually imported and run? If that's not what you meant then I have to say you were not very clear on what you really meant.

I don't know how can you say that Nuclear is the ONLY available option. But if that is what you think well I have nothing to add.
Chaanakya,

You are twisting what I wrote. I've been crying myself hoarse that energy deficit India has to avail of all available options in the energy mix and that includes, among others, nuclear.

You are taking my statement made in the context of your statement about the 2.5 % mix and twisting it.

If that's the best you can do...

I understand there may be a comprehension issue. Not surprising. Let me point out that my sentence started with:
Doesn't that mean you think...
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