PRC Political News & Discussions

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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by SSridhar »

pacific_blue wrote:Paki. is China's neighbore. Will India help its neighbore to develop Nuclear weapons?
pacific_blue, it is not the question of being a neighbour or otherwise. PRC joined NPT in 1970 and has therefore certain obligations, the most important of which, as the name of the treaty it signed implies, is not to proliferate. Giving Highly enriched uranium and plutonium, ring magnets for centrifuges, supplying designs of nuclear weapons, supplying nuclear weapons, performing cold and hot tests on behalf of a non-nuclear weapon state are not exactly actions that are deemed as living up to the obligations of the NPT. These are nothing short of actions of a rogue state which flouts binding international treaties. One can be absolutely certain that India will not help in such activities of its neighbours or others.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by shynee »

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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by svinayak »

SSridhar wrote:
pacific_blue, it is not the question of being a neighbour or otherwise. PRC joined NPT in 1970 and has therefore certain obligations, the most important of which, as the name of the treaty it signed implies, is not to proliferate. Giving Highly enriched uranium and plutonium, ring magnets for centrifuges, supplying designs of nuclear weapons, supplying nuclear weapons, performing cold and hot tests on behalf of a non-nuclear weapon state are not exactly actions that are deemed as living up to the obligations of the NPT. These are nothing short of actions of a rogue state which flouts binding international treaties. One can be absolutely certain that India will not help in such activities of its neighbours or others.
Who said NPT is supposed to be P5 following the rules
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Karan Dixit »

"It is just not right to welcome a country, where executions are a daily occurrence and human rights are treated with disrespect," Kadeer, a former businesswoman who now leads the exile group the World Uighur Congress, said at the book fair on Sunday, the last day of the fair.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091018/med ... a_uighur_1
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by cheng »

Acharya wrote:
SSridhar wrote:
pacific_blue, it is not the question of being a neighbour or otherwise. PRC joined NPT in 1970 and has therefore certain obligations, the most important of which, as the name of the treaty it signed implies, is not to proliferate. Giving Highly enriched uranium and plutonium, ring magnets for centrifuges, supplying designs of nuclear weapons, supplying nuclear weapons, performing cold and hot tests on behalf of a non-nuclear weapon state are not exactly actions that are deemed as living up to the obligations of the NPT. These are nothing short of actions of a rogue state which flouts binding international treaties. One can be absolutely certain that India will not help in such activities of its neighbours or others.
Who said NPT is supposed to be P5 following the rules
can you provide reliable evidence that China doing that? as a common sense in Chinese society, most of my friends don't believe that China helps Paki. to develop Nuke. till now I believe that it's US trick to make such story. since Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, Israil can do that, Paki., as a country with over 200 million populations, can do that too.

and i have another question: why don't you guys think that is Japan whho helps Paki. with Nuke? it's well-known fact that many of the equipment in Paki.'s test were made and imported from Japan? and further why don't you guys think that is US who did that? you all know that Paki. is US's long term ally and US helped Paki. in many aspect. It's very like that US did this (to provide technology & materials, and to allow Japan to provide some equipments) to keep some kind of balance in south asia, but lose its control on the next years.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by harbans »

can you provide reliable evidence that China doing that?
Washington D.C., 5 March 2004 - Over the course of three presidential administrations, U.S. governmental officials repeatedly pressed the Chinese government to explain whether it was providing any assistance to Pakistan in the nuclear weapons field, but Chinese officials responded with denials and equivocation. New evidence from Libya of Chinese-language material among the nuclear weapons-design documents supplied by Pakistan raises new questions about the Chinese contribution to Pakistan's nuclear proliferation activities. Exactly what the U.S. government knew and when it knew it remains highly secret in closed intelligence files, but the newly available diplomatic record shows:

* U.S. unease over secret China-Pakistan security and military cooperation during the late 1960s

* Chinese assistance to Pakistani nuclear-weapons related projects in 1977

* the refusal by Chinese diplomats in 1982 to give an "unequivocal answer" to queries about nuclear weapons aid to Pakistan

* the conclusion reached by State Department analysts in 1983 that China was assisting with the production of fissile materials and possibly with the design of weapons

* the George H. W. Bush administration's concern in 1989 over "reports of Chinese assistance to Pakistan's nuclear weapons program"

* denials by Chinese diplomats that same year of reports of Chinese nuclear aid to Pakistan

* U.S. pressure on China in 1992 to impose full-scope safeguards on the sale of a nuclear reactor to Pakistan because of proliferation concerns

* more disquiet (late 1992) over China's "continuing activities with Pakistan's nuclear weapons programs"

* the Clinton administration's 1997 certification of improvements in Beijing's nuclear proliferation policies
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/press.htm
June 16, 1998
The Strategic Implications Of China's nuclear Aid To Pakistan
by Richard D. Fisher and John T. Dori
Executive Memorandum #532

China's role in helping Pakistan to acquire nuclear weapons has raised serious concerns about China's part in fostering instability in South Asia. The disturbing strategic implications spill over even to the Middle East. It is essential that policymakers in the United States examine these implications carefully in order to craft an effective response.
CHINA'S NUCLEAR AND MISSILE PROLIFERATION

Since the 1970s, China has been instrumental in Pakistan's nuclear and missile programs. China provided Pakistan with highly enriched uranium, ring magnets necessary for processing the uranium, and education for nuclear engineers. Pakistan's nuclear bomb, in fact, is widely believed to be based on Chinese blueprints. Worse, in 1990 and 1992, China provided Pakistan with nuclear-capable M-11 missiles
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Asiaan ... /EM532.cfm
Chinese proliferation activities during the eight years of the Clinton administration resulted in Chinese entities subject to sanctions 17 times. In four years of the Bush administration, Chinese entities have been sanctioned a total of 50 times. In 2004 alone, 14 Chinese entities were sanctioned a total of 23 times.

Five companies—China Great Wall Industry Corporation, China Precision Machinery Import/Export Corporation, China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO), Wha Cheong Tai Company, Ltd., and Zibo Chemical Equipment Plant—and one Chinese national, Q.C. Chen, have all been sanctioned at least four times by the United States and are often referred to as “serial proliferators” by U.S. officials

For some entities, such as the China Great Wall Industry Corporation and China Precision Machinery Import/Export Corporation, the sanctions have been spread out over more than a decade. But for NORINCO and Zibo Chemical Equipment Plant, the sanctions have all occurred since 2003 and 2002, respectively.

Wider proliferation circle

Chinese proliferation to Pakistan has indirectly fuelled weapons activities across the world, especially owing to the role of disgraced Pakistan nuclear scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan. In 2004, as a result of on-site investigations into Libya's nuclear weapons program new details of the Pakistan-China collaboration were studied. As part of disarmament inspections, early Chinese nuclear weapons designs were handed over to IAEA inspectors by Libyan scientists, wrapped in plastic bags bearing an address in Islamabad.
http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2627

And from the horses mouth:
74-year-old Khan, considered father of Pakistan's nuclear bomb, had revealed that his country helped China in enrichment technology in return for bomb blue-prints.

Britain's 'Sunday Times', quoting a four-page 'secret' letter from Khan addressed to his Dutch wife Henny, had said that the first customer for one of Pakistan's enrichment plants was China which itself had supplied Pakistan with enough highly enriched uranium for two nuclear bombs in the summer of 1982.

"We put up a centrifuge plant at Hanzhong (250 kms southwest of Xian)," Khan's letter said. "The Chinese gave us drawings of the nuclear weapon, gave us 50kg of enriched uranium, gave us 10 tonnes of UF6 (natural) and 5 tonnes of UF6 (3 per cent)," it went on.
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/ ... ration.htm
Chinese view

Beijing’s national security strategy is a principle of “containment through surrogates” , that requires proliferation to countries that can countervail its perceived rivals and enemies. The Chinese military has long practiced what John Mearsheimer calls “managed proliferation”- it calls for providing nuclear or missile technology to China's friends and allies (Pakistan, Iran, North Korea) so as to contain its rivals through proxies (India in South Asia, the United States in the Middle East and Japan in East Asia). Toshi Yoshihara and Richard Sokolsky elaborate, “Beijing has relied on the threat of proliferation as a counterweight to U.S. policies that threaten China's interests.”

According to Professor Richard Russell of the National Defense University, “China works against American counter-proliferation policy until they get caught, and then deny charges, only to subsequently, and much belatedly, recant to say that it will not happen again.”
And yes you can read up how China violated NPT articles 1 and III by being caught redhanded smuggling 5000 ring magnets to Pakistan.

China is the BIGGEST proliferator of Nuclear weapons and Missile technology in the world along with the Terrorist State of Pakistan. Both are indeed great pals.

Anyways read up for yourself. Chinese evidence of proliferation is all over the place.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by derkonig »

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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Karan Dixit »

The Los Angeles Times report said corrupt officials stole babies in Guizhou and Hunan provinces and sold them for 3,000 dollars each to orphanages flooded with adoption requests from the United States, Canada and Europe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091019/wl ... 1019233933
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Karan Dixit »

NEW YORK (AFP) – Dozens of members of China's Uighur minority including children remain unaccounted for more than three months after security forces rounded them up amid ethnic clashes, Human Rights Watch said Wednesday.

"They told everybody to get out of the houses. Women and elderly were told to stand aside, and all men, 12 to 45 years old, were lined up against the wall," a resident identified as Aysanam said.

"Some men were pushed on their knees, with hands tied around wooden sticks behind their backs; others were forced on the ground with hands on their heads," she said.

"'Disappearing' people is not the behavior of countries aspiring to global leadership," Brad Adams, the Asia director at Human Rights Watch, said in the report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091021/wl ... 1021081812
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by SSridhar »

Uighurs disappeared after Xinjiang Riots
Dozens of minority Uighurs have “disappeared” and been “unlawfully detained” by Chinese authorities in the wake of July’s ethnic unrest in the Muslim-majority Xinjiang region, a report alleges.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Sanku »

cheng wrote: I don't understand why you indian people hate Mao so much.
Good question, lots of reasons, however to begin with most Indians hate the concept of use of brutal force to push down an ideological agenda.

The Indics are the first and by many standards the only free thinking people of the world -- as such greatly hate the idea of close mindedness and "power flows from the barrel of gun" mindset.

However this is only one of the major factors, we can give you a long list and anyone who is aware of even 5% of what the Tibetans have suffered under the Chinese occupations will hate Mao (oh and there are documentary evidences so dont go around spreading stories of "they lie")

Any one who knows what Mao did to Chinese themselves under the great leap forward will hate Mao etc etc..
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by SSridhar »

Xinjiang isolated by email, phone blockade by the Chinese
Residents in China's restive Xinjiang region remain isolated from the outside world with long-lasting Internet and phone cuts that have prompted some businesses to relocate, locals said Saturday.

Emails are still blocked nearly four months after deadly ethnic unrest erupted in the regional capital Urumqi, as are text messages and international phone calls, residents told media.

The government says terrorists, separatists and religious extremists used the Internet, telephones and mobile text messages to spread rumours and hatred as the July violence erupted in Urumqi.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by krishnan »

Indian people hate Mao? Thats news to me. Why would we hate him when we dont even known anything about him. An avg indian expect for maybe a BRFite, wouldnt even known who mao is.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by RayC »

We have Mao-ists!
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Johann »

Jiang Zemin Casts Long Shadow over National Day Parade
Publication: China Brief Volume: 9 Issue: 20
October 7, 2009 04:00 PM Age: 17 days
Category: China Brief, Willy’s Corner, Home Page, Elite, China and the Asia-Pacific
By: Willy Lam

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cac ... 80174720e9

Jiang Zemin's surprising comeback - Jiang has resumed his role as the PLA's godfather since the Tibetan riots last year.

This may explain the PLA's aggressiveness over Arunachal Pradesh of late. Jiang Zemin was quite intensely anti-Indian. Jiang has always been convinced that India is and was behind China's Tibet problems, rather than recognising the real problem was the suppression of Tibetans cultural and political rights.

Also note Hu Jintao's efforts to assert himself as CMC chairman by out-toughing Jiang and showing up in a Mao suit. He does that whenever he is addressing the PLA.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by D Roy »

Gentlemen,

do we have some kind of a sticky or article on Neville Maxwell's book? A lot of idiots on the web and elsewhere cite that book to propound the myth of Indian expansionism. I am just too tired to type out counters to these suckers. I would just rather give them a link to a page where some objective analysis of this devious book is given. Is there any such thing here?
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Karan Dixit »

D Roy wrote:Gentlemen,

do we have some kind of a sticky or article on Neville Maxwell's book? A lot of idiots on the web and elsewhere cite that book to propound the myth of Indian expansionism. I am just too tired to type out counters to these suckers. I would just rather give them a link to a page where some objective analysis of this devious book is given. Is there any such thing here?
Neville Maxwell's book was funded by China. In India we do not seem to have a mindset to fund the kind of PR & think tank projects that will project Indian point of view.

May be we should start an open source project that will counter Neville Marxwell's work and go beyond.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by sanjaykumar »

Neville Maxwell's book was funded by China.

What is the evidence for this?
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Karan Dixit »

sanjaykumar wrote:Neville Maxwell's book was funded by China.

What is the evidence for this?
When I was growing up, I read this frequently in Indian newspapers. I believe even GOI has called Neville Maxwell's book, a Chinese propaganda on occasions.

Anyhow, Neville Maxwell wrote this book as a fellow of School of Oriental and African Studies, which was funded by British government but there were reports that Chinese government provided some funding for this project. This particular organization played a significant role in smoothing China - UK relations. Even if you deny that the money ever changed hands between Brits and Chinese, you could never deny that the School of Oriental and African Studies was favorably disposed towards China.

I wish Indian media would do some this work so that us third graders would not have to do this.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by santoshriyer »

Pre-1979 Chinese Rhetoric: After India, Russia Targeted

By B. Raman

In my article of October 15, 2009, titled "Chinese Media Revert to Pre-Deng Rhetoric on India" available at http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r3460.html , I had stated as follows: "The more hawkish line adopted by the Chinese Foreign Ministry and the party media indicate that the hawks in the PLA and the party have started influencing the policy towards India. "

2. An article under the bye-line Li Hongmei under the title 'How to respond to Russia's "Ambiguous Diplomacy"?' carried by the Chinese Communist Party's "People's Daily" on October 21, 2009, (annexed) indicates that the newly-evident hawkish line in foreign policy matters reflecting some of the arguments, characterisations and rhetoric of the pre-Deng Xiaoping era has been directed not only against India, but also against Russia.

3. The article carries intriguing references to Russia as a fair-weather friend and as practising an ambiguous diplomacy. There has been targeted criticism of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin for some of his economic decisions affecting China and Chinese illegal traders in Russian territory. A comparison of the criticism of India, which has been accused of nursing hegemonistic aspirations, with the criticism of Russia indicates different motivating factors.

4. The motivating factor of the criticism of India is with reference to its foreign policy ---particularly its relations with the US ---, its aspirations of emerging as an important power and the border dispute. Economic factors do not appear to be behind the criticism of India.

5. In the case of Russia, economic factors seem to be mainly behind the criticism. The Chinese disappointment that Moscow did not give preference to China in respect of the award of the contract for the Far Eastern Oil pipeline project is writ large in the article. The article says: "Chauvinism and double-dealing tactics, which set the basic formula for making foreign policies in its Soviet time, can still be found in today's Russian diplomacy. This can be clearly illustrated by the 10-year-long competition between China and Japan for Russia's Far East oil pipeline project. The usual economic considerations inherent in a strictly commercial competition do not apply in this case. Instead, geopolitical considerations far outweigh any and all commercial considerations.Within the context, Russia had been cast in the role of exploiting the China-Japan rivalry. By waiting for the highest bid, Russia was fascinated by its triumph in converting the pipeline courtship into the pipeline diplomacy, in which Russia benefited from both sides while manipulating from behind the scenes."

6. There is also ill-concealed bitterness over the June 29, 2009, decision of Putin to put down the illegal trading activities of Chinese immigrants in Russian territory by closing down the Cherkizovsky Market, Europe's largest marketplace, located in the Izmaylovo District of Moscow. Putin had ordered it to be closed down on grounds of violations of regulations and illegal activities. The market, which was owned by a Turkish group, had thousands of traders from China and the Central Asian Republics. Illegal traders from China constituted the majority in the market.

7. The need to pursue and enforce core Chinese interests----against India on the border issue and against Russia on economic issues---- has been the underlying themes of the two recent articles on India and Russia. While the emphasis on the enforcement of core Chinese interests is understandable, the use of pre-1979 rhetoric and arguments indicates the growing assertiveness of "China first" hawkish elements in the party and the PLA, who have no use for the reconciliatory language of the Deng era. What they are indicating is that the time has come for China to start using its military, diplomatic and economic muscles for enforcing its core interests.

8. What support these elements have in the party and the Government? It is difficult to answer this question, but the fact that the "People's Daily" has found it necessary to give voice to them in its columns shows that these elements are not insignificant.

(The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: seventyone2@gmail.com)


ANNEXURE

HOW TO RESPOND TO RUSSIA'S "AMBIGUOUS DIPLOMACY?"

By Li Hongmei

Tightly pressed by the U.S.-led Western world since the end of the Cold War, and constantly beleaguered by the tit-for-tat measures devised by the West to counterbalance its military might---- just to name a few----NATO's eastward expansion, color revolution and deployment of missile defense system, Russia at times has to turn to China for a relatively sound security environment, but it has thus far remained a fair-weather friend to China, practicing "shadow-boxing" on its China policy.

Russia's ambiguous position seen in its diplomatic strategies could even trace back to its initial years in handling the ties with the then fledgling Chinese Communists. On the eve of the founding of the People's Republic of China, the pro-Kuomintang U.S. Embassy and its Ambassador Leighton Stuart chose to remain in Nanking, former capital of Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang government. But the Embassy of the Soviet Union, technically the sole supporter to the newly-born Chinese communist government, fled to South China with remnants of the overthrown Chiang clique.

This can partially showcase the "Ambiguous Diplomacy" Russia has since sought after purportedly to gain advantage from both sides. By playing balance between the Communist Party and the Kuomintang, the Soviet Union could probably maximize its vested interests, its intention being self-evident in this case.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union left the U.S. as the world's monolithic superpower, Russia has appeared to get closer to China after a history of suspicion, rivalry, and even open hostility in 1960s. But the legacy of Soviet-style ambiguous diplomacy lingers on and suspicions remain overshadowing its relations with China. To shrug off the pressure imposed by the West, to which Russia found inaccessible even after the Cold War, Russia tilted its diplomatic favor to the East by adopting the so-called "Two-headed Hawk" Strategy. And on this basis, it finally entered into "Strategic Collaboration Partnership" with China.

With the wheel of history rolling on, Russia has been making desperate efforts to cut off its blood tie with its bygone days as a communist giant. But Chauvinism and double-dealing tactics, which set the basic formula for making foreign policies in its Soviet time, can still be found in today's Russian diplomacy. This can be clearly illustrated by the 10-year-long competition between China and Japan for Russia's Far East oil pipeline project. The usual economic considerations inherent in a strictly commercial competition do not apply in this case. Instead, geopolitical considerations far outweigh any and all commercial considerations.

Within the context, Russia had been cast in the role of exploiting the China-Japan rivalry. By waiting for the highest bid, Russia was fascinated by its triumph in converting the pipeline courtship into the pipeline diplomacy, in which Russia benefited from both sides while manipulating from behind the scenes.

If this is not enough to reduce or limit the ever-growing Chinese clout, which has reportedly upset Russia for some time, Russia would go as far as it can to drag China down. For instance, its hard-line PM Vladimir Putin persisted in setting the limitation for issuing Russian Far East visas to the Chinese citizens, while the same Putin may speak in Moscow about bilateral ties being "at their highest level ever."

His recently wrapped-up debut Beijing visit as Prime Minister sealed a package of nearly $40 billion worth of orders and bilateral contracts. Nevertheless, Moscow's decision on the closure of Cherkizovsky, the largest market, which came in June unexpectedly like a bolt from the blue for the Chinese vendors, is still shrouding the minds of many Chinese, especially those who were born and bred in the years when the Soviet Union acted as China's Big Brother and who even today still cherish a subtle "Russia Complex".

Unfortunately, in reality, little has happened to strengthen the bilateral ties. On the other hand, Russia has attained a high degree of perfection in pushing its "Ambiguous Diplomacy" and even extending it to almost all the spheres of foreign affairs.

To China, what must be done in terms of its future bilateral relationship with Russia is, first and foremost, abandoning the one-sided wish, or so to speak, the thinking to "take a part as the whole". The best way to deal with Russia is to follow the path, more realistic and more reasonable, leading to a mature diplomacy, which will expect a reciprocal gesture of goodwill and satisfy the mutual interests as great powers.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by svinayak »

tigersant wrote:
7. The need to pursue and enforce core Chinese interests----against India on the border issue and against Russia on economic issues---- has been the underlying themes of the two recent articles on India and Russia. While the emphasis on the enforcement of core Chinese interests is understandable, the use of pre-1979 rhetoric and arguments indicates the growing assertiveness of "China first" hawkish elements in the party and the PLA, who have no use for the reconciliatory language of the Deng era. What they are indicating is that the time has come for China to start using its military, diplomatic and economic muscles for enforcing its core interests.
This is exactly the agenda of the US to make sure that RIC does not solidify.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Thinking in that manner makes for distant neighbors.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by svinayak »

prad wrote:
for all practical purposes, there is no RIC in the first place. Russia and India are connected in no way. China and India are divided by an insurmountable barrier (Himalayas) across which large movement is impossible. and China and Russia are divided by a vast wilderness (Siberia) and mountainous territory of Western China and Central Asia (the only opening between China and Russia is very limited in geography and it is too far from the Russian heartland for Russia and China to involve with each other in any meanigful way; especially considering the costs involved for Russia in maintaining such long distance infrastructure which can accommodate significant economic activity).
We are talking of geopolitical blocks not physical connections. How can RIC be so much misunderstood or is it a psy ops on this kind of forum.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by svinayak »

prad wrote: Do Russia, India, China have convergent geopolitical goals or ambitions???
Of course against the "super power"
welcome to the real world.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by JE Menon »

We will not be part of any "bloc" or get seriously involved in creating a counter to the sole superpower or would be superpower or will be super power. If blocs emerge in our neighbourhood, we will endeavour to be part of them. We are more than capable of standing on our own, making up more than 1 of every six people in the world. That said, there is no point in rejecting workable formations for achievable objectives, whether it is RIC, BRIC, or with the US-EU. This, by the way, is pretty much what every other power of consequence is doing. No point in tying ourselves down or isolating ourselves. The world as it is emerging is uniquely tailored to our way of functioning and of looking at the world. Only question is whether we will optimise. We can. And probably will, adapting to our particularities.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by svinayak »

prad wrote:
not enough to counter their own deep seated suspicions against each other (for very valid reasons).

the only meaningful relationship in RIC is the RI realtionship. but India has already once wagered its fortunes on Russia and the consequences of that are well known. for better or worse, i don't think India will go the Russian way again. at least not to the extent that will create any major "geopolitical block" as you put it.
Image

Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi (left), Indian Foreign Minister S M Krishna (center), and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov (right) hold a joint press conference in Bangalore, India. - Photo by AP.

NEW DELHI: As debates raged in Washington about the arriving strategies of the US-led military campaign in Afghanistan, three major countries – India, China and Russia – jointly urged the international community not to let the focus slip from their mission in the strife-torn country.


http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 20#p762420
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Are you on a misson to debunk everything or is there anything new that will come from you? Already two members got warnings due to tangling with you! And one was a former admin. 8)
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by kshirin »

It would be good to have a discussion on Neville Maxwell's book, and the Henderson report for that matter, except no one has seen it except thru second hand accounts.
One usually does write books when affiliated to some academic institution or the other. One thing saddens me, no Indian explorer ever went to these remote areas to draw the lines, it was only the British who seem to have done that, whether it was Durand or MacMahon or whoever, since they were concerned with India's strategic frontiers. I hope I am wrong. We seemed to have been incurious about our frontiers.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

kshirin wrote:It would be good to have a discussion on Neville Maxwell's book, and the Henderson report for that matter, except no one has seen it except thru second hand accounts.
One usually does write books when affiliated to some academic institution or the other. One thing saddens me, no Indian explorer ever went to these remote areas to draw the lines, it was only the British who seem to have done that, whether it was Durand or MacMahon or whoever, since they were concerned with India's strategic frontiers. I hope I am wrong. We seemed to have been incurious about our frontiers.
Kshirin, I was talking about this very fact with one of our members. And we came to conclusion that the Brits rode on the backs of the Indin traders of Central Asia - Shikarpuris and the Bengali babus. All those explorations the back bone were the Indians and the ones who got credited were the BRits who led the expeditions.

Try to get the books by Hopkirk (Great Game etc) and Scott Levi. there was an Indian who was the prinicpal for the Afghan Wars-Mohan Lal Zutshi. His bio is in google books.

Great Game

and

Wiki on ML Zutshi

and
Mohan Lal had learnt Persian in Delhi and travelled in the garb of a Muslim as Aga Hassan Kashmiri and as Mirza Quli Kashmiri in Iran and Afghanistan collecting information vital for his British master. During the first Anglo-Afghan war he was instrumental in setting up and expanding the British intelligence network in Afghanistan. He found out and handed over to the British authorities secret letters written by the rulers of Kandahar to Mehrab Khan, the ruler of Baluchistan, exhorting him not to allow passage to the invading British army. He managed to obtain the services of very important functionaries like Mohammed Tahir, Haji Khan Kakari, Abdul Majeed Khan, Akhundzada Ghulam and Mullah Nasooh in Kandahar and Sardar Abdul Rashid Khan, a nephew of the Emir Sardar Dost Mohammad Khan in Ghazni. He played a major role in securing the release of British prisoners held hostage in Bamiyan.
Mohan Lal made a telling observation to Burnes about British imperialism: "You all tell yourselves all sorts of fairy stories – you are here to sell us your wonderful British goods, you want to set us free, you want us to grow up, you want to educate us and make us worship three gods instead of forty thousand… but when you are old and tired and sleeping in a thousand years' time, you will start to realise that you came here and took possession of what was not yours for one reason. To surrender it, to give it up. That is the only reason." His birth name was Mohan.

Wish the pseudo-Anglophiles realize that!


Face of spy revealed after many years


In his own words:

Travels in Panjab et al.

and

Life of Amir Dost Mohammed

And we dont know the countless others who explored Central Asia and did not leave writings.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Johann »

What are 'blocs'?

Most people tend to think of NATO/EU or COMECON/Warsaw Pact, i.e.
- economic unions
- military alliances

In the post cold war period, particularly for developing countries and emerging powers its really forums for coordinating on areas of common interest.

There's no question that this particular India-Russia-China meeting has a lot to do with Afghan and Central Asian security. Its a chance to coordinate policy - discourage the US from disengaging with Afghanistan, discuss the options if they are unsuccessful, and discuss how to avoid a US or Israeli war with Iran without condoning Iranian nuclearisation.

None of this means that India and China's problems will go away, or that India will feel committed to buying Russian, or anything like that.

On other issues India will probably chose to work with Brazil and South Africa, or perhaps the US and EU. For all the conflicts India has found itself in, it has managed to maintain a lot of diplomatic space by decoupling and unbundling issues and relationships.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by kshirin »

Many thanks Ramana ji, for taking the trouble, I shall follow these up. Maxwell's book is very disturbing, I suppose the original sin on our side was relinquishing any claim to Tibet, but it is easy to pass judgement in retro.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Paul »

Mohan Lal had learnt Persian in Delhi and travelled in the garb of a Muslim as Aga Hassan Kashmiri and as Mirza Quli Kashmiri in Iran and Afghanistan collecting information vital for his British master.
I last read JLN's autobiography when I was 13-14 years old. I recall him talking about Mohan Lal in his writings as his ancestor.

I need to look up that book again (mother lode of my book collection is in India). In light of the knowledge gained in the last few years, the seemingly innocuos events described can throw up interesting interpretations.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Johann »

Prad,

There are genuine divisions within the Iranian regime on the nuclear issue. Conservatives and radicals stuck together to defend the regime from the elections threat, but they have differences on other issues.

Conservatives are OK with a deal to have the majority of uranium enriched by Russia and France for fuel and nuclear medicine. Agreeing to this does not prevent them from pursuing a nuclear option - i.e. continuing work on missiles, warhead design, etc that would allow them to break out in an emergency, or after a change in the overall international environment.

The conservatives are interested in compromise because they recognise economic health is key to the regime's survival. Sanctions, even non-UN sanctions will hurt government finances and the overall economy, and hurt public popularity. They've even supported cuts in public subsidies to cope with the financial situation.

If Iran walks away from this deal the Russians will be very embarrassed and angry about the rejection of this deal it helped broker, and may well abstain in a UNSC vote on sanctions.

The radicals refuse to countenance any compromise. They look at countries like Iraq, North Korea and Cuba where regimes survived decades of severe sanctions by controlling access to vital goods. Of course sanctions set them back decades.

However I think the conservatives are right - Iran is very different from all of those other states in the activism of its middle classes and the size of its intelligentsia. Saddam, Kim and Fidel never faced millions marching against them in their own capitals. There will be anger at the West in Iran over sanctions, but there will be even more anger at the radicals who walked away from a deal, and murder their own citizens on the streets and in secret prisons.

Its difficult to predict who will win the current internal debate in Tehran and Qom. I'd say its 60-40 on the side of the Conservatives. After all Saeed Jallilli who negotiated it on the Iranian side was appointed by Ahmadinejad, and is head of the Supreme National Security Council which answers to Khamenei.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by surinder »

The real problem has not been an "incurious" Indian attitude to exploration, it has been a systematic failure of the establishment to integrate Indian adventures. They have failed to utilize & capitalize on these adventures, and failed to build on them.

Talking of going to the vast dangerous world, there are even now lakhs of Indian Hindus/Sikhs in Kabul, Jalalabad, & Kandahar---I cannot imagine a place more difficult to live & survive in. There dozens of temples & gurudwaras in these places. Indians went regularly to Bokhara & other CA locations on Business for many centuries. Also to places like Iran, Iraq etc (Large number of Indians are still to be found in places like Tehran). First Sikh Guru travelled to Mecca & Median, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tibet, Cylon. Indians travelled & settled in many places like Hong-Kong, Vietnam, not to mention in hostile places like Canada, US centuries ago. There are Indians in South America in the remotest of places farmering inhospitable areas, setting up businesses among strange peoples.

One thing I have to admit is their lack of enthusiasm for writing books. This is what gives the impression today that they did not venture far & wide. Writing literature builds & conserves knowledge.

As an aside: I am not sure one can draw too much pride from Mohan Lal's adventures. He was an employee of the British, most likely a spy, and an assitant to the explorers. He was working to enhance & expand the British empire. His writings (the link that Ramana posted) give a clear feeling a man being given a mandate to collect information for the British.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Well you can thnk what you like but he did his mission exceednigly well.

BTW your thought about lack of narrative is very apt. In a sense BR is a place for knowledge transfer and narrative capture. However it gets ruffled now and then by elements who want a particular dejour point of view.

Nowadays in US companies the emphasis is on knowledge transfer from older employees to ensure technological continuity.

One tool is a web based application called Unity.

There is book I am reading called "Thinking in Time" by Neustadt and May that formalizes the way to study the past to learn lessons. I believe the book is used to teach at many US utys.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by kshirin »

Must get this book. I would also be interested in recommendtaions for a good guide for scenario planning and decision making, especially in these days when so many game changing strategies are being unveiled.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by svinayak »

kshirin wrote:Must get this book. I would also be interested in recommendtaions for a good guide for scenario planning and decision making, especially in these days when so many game changing strategies are being unveiled.
Best book is

The Art of the Long View: Planning for the Future in an Uncertain World
~ Peter Schwartz (Author) SRI
This book is about using future scenarios to make better current decisions. As Peter Schwartz alerts us, "Scenarios are not predictions." They represent instead, possible alternative dimensions of the future that reflect the driving forces of that future. This is particularly valuable now because unpredictability is growing. "Unpredictability in every field is the result of the conquest of the whole of the present world by scientific power."

You are encouraged to use these scenarios as simulations to help you think more concretely and accurately about what might come next. Then you choose decisions and actions that leave you better off than the alternatives, regardless of the future scenario that occurs. Such scenarios are like projected script plots for a movie, and help us develop "memories of the future" (as David Ingvar noted) that make thinking about the future more practical for us. Generally one scenario will be better than the current direction, one worse, and one different.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by Bade »

'Father of China's space technology' dies
China's space scientist Qian Xuesen, widely known as the father of the country's space technology, died here Saturday morning at the age of 98, Xinhua news agency reported.

Qian was born in Hangzhou, the capital city of the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang. He led many of China's key missile and space programmes.

A member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the Chinese Academy of Engineering, he graduated from Jiao Tong University, Shanghai in 1934, the report said.

In 1935, he went to study in the aviation department of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, US, and later studied aviation engineering at the California Institute of Technology. In 1939, he received a doctorate in aviation and mathematics. He returned to China in 1955.
He did not return alone, but with a whole group of 50 or more key people from Caltech to form the nucleus of the Chinese space program. The chinese contingent at Caltech and associated places then was quite large. This happened during the McCarthy era, I had a colleague in grad school whose father was part of the larger contingent. Unfortunately for his dad, he had to go to the re-education camp during the Cultural Revolution.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

kshirin, The best tool is an open mind. As for practicals always have minimum three scenarios. - a good, bad and ugly. Usually the bad turns out to be the Goldilocks option.


List all the musts and the wants. Any scenario that does not meet the musts gets thrown out. Then the wants are ranked from 1-10 and a score generated. The wants should be balanced between competing objectives. At the end adverse consequences of the choice has to be evaluated and risk reduction and mitigation steps planned.
The above is called Kepner Tregoe method.
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by kshirin »

You guys are something. And thanks also for the book recommendations. Some of my best epiphanies have been triggered by BRF.
Ramanaji I do not yet understand the way of going about it and it sounds like only geniuses can play this particular game -but I am going to try to learn since it may lead to breakthroughs in stodgy old mindsets. Work loads being what they are, it is difficult to do this on one's own but it sounds like something one ought to know and get a handle on.

So it seems one should learn the art of taking the right decisions by studying the past carefully and also guessing the future (in terms of alternate scenarios), amazing, Isaac Asimov would have approved of this exciting approach.

I always try to build in a solution though, based on a non zero sum mindset (or at least I like to think I think like that, the ultimate objective being what is best for India and of course also to the world), but people tell me scenarios should not have solutions painted in.
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