Indian Foreign Policy

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Viv S
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

Manoj Joshi of ORF weighs in -

India is Making Up for the Lack of Vision by Bandwagoning with the US
BY MANOJ JOSHI

India may be on the verge of signing several agreements that will strengthen its military ties with the US. But before it jumps on board, India needs to have a clear vision for why it is doing so.

Image

Following Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s visit to the United States last December, his American counterpart, Ashton Carter, waxed eloquent. “We’ve done so much more in the last year, probably more than we’ve done in the ten years before that,” said Carter. “I’m guessing that in the next ten months, we will yet again do more than we’ve done in the last year,” he added.

Carter was merely expressing what most observers believe to be true. Through the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) years, former Defence Minister A.K. Antony stood like a Leftist rock against closer military links with the US, despite the views of his boss, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Antony knew he had Sonia Gandhi’s blessings, and he was able to successfully block all measures to enhance the India-US military relationship, which had looked so promising when the two countries had signed the New Framework of Defence Cooperation in 2005, and the Maritime Cooperation Agreement of 2006.

With the IIT-educated, tech-savvy Manohar Parrikar as the Defence Minister of the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government, the US has made it more than obvious than its military ties with India are on a roll. In February this year, the news agency Reuters reported that India and the US had discussed the idea of joint patrols in the South China Sea. The item, by the world’s leading news agency, implied that the discussions had taken place during Parrikar’s visit, and that there had been follow-up discussions since.

But the next day, a spokesperson in Washington DC issued a clarification, saying, “At this time, there are no plans for any joint naval patrols.” On March 5, at a press conference, Parrikar too said: “As of now India has not taken part in joint patrols, but we do participate in joint exercises. So the issue of joint patrols at this time does not arise.” Neither side is categorically denying the idea of joint patrols; all they seem to be saying is that it is a matter of time.

The foundational agreements

In the run up to US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter’s visit to India in April, the two countries have been having intense discussions on a range of issues, and joint patrolling is only one of them. The discussion is focussed on the need for India to sign ‘foundational’ agreements which will enable the India-US military relationship to grow deeper roots. The three agreements are the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement (BECA) for geospatial intelligence.

Of the three, the LSA is said to be the closest to being signed by the Indian side, despite resistance from the military and civilian officials of the Ministry of Defence. Initially, this was called the Access and Cross-Servicing Agreement (ACSA) but later it was renamed the Logistics Support Agreement. The ACSA is a standard agreement that the US has with its NATO allies and other countries like Singapore, Afghanistan, the Philippines, and Sri Lanka. The US and Pakistan also signed an agreement in 2002, which lapsed in 2012.

Under the LSA, the two sides can access supplies, spare parts and services from each other’s land facilities, air bases, and ports, which can then be reimbursed.

In the past, India has provided logistics assistance to the US on a ‘case by case’ basis. So for a short while, we permitted the refueling of American aircraft in Bombay during the first Gulf War in 1991. During Operation Enduring Freedom, India permitted US ships to visit Indian ports for repair and fuel. It also offered the US military bases for operations in Afghanistan before Pakistan was coerced into doing the needful. India also escorted US vessels through the Malacca Straits in this period.

The CISMOA would allow the US to provide India with its encrypted communications equipment and systems so that Indian and US higher commanders, aircraft and ships can communicate with each other through secure networks in peace and war.

The BECA would provide India with topographical and aeronautical data and products which will aid navigation and targeting. These are areas in which the US is very advanced and the agreement could definitely benefit India, although the armed forces which use systems from many other countries like Israel and Russia are not comfortable with sharing information about their systems with the US.

India has told the US that it is agreeable ‘in principle’ to all these agreements but wants them to be modified to be ‘India specific’, in other words, allay India’s reservations, wherever they exist.

All these agreements are reciprocal. But only the most obtuse analyst can ignore the fact that in the ultimate analysis, we are talking about a relationship, a partnership if you will, between two very different countries: a country with a global military reach, and another which is hard put to remain afloat in its own region. India may have the potential of being a regional power, but at present and for another decade at least, this potential is all there will be.

Two other agreements are not being discussed, but remain problematic. These are the End Use Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) and the Enhanced End Use Monitoring Agreement (EEUMA).

The US requires all foreign buyers to sign up to these agreements, and this includes close allies like the UK and Australia. In response to a question about the EUMA in Parliament in 2014, Minister of State in the Ministry of External Affairs VK Singh said that India had various end use monitoring arrangements with the US since the 1990s.

Then in 2009, the two sides signed a generic agreement to smoothen the process. This is not a formal agreement, but an India-specific arrangement. The EUMA and EEUMA remain major deal-breakers when it comes to India acquiring US equipment, because India cannot always permit the US to access locations where equipment or weapons systems are located. What do you do about, say, air-to-air missiles which are located in operational locations?

Does India need the foundational agreements?

The big question is: Does India need the foundational agreements?

The answer to this is complex. If India intends to maintain its relations with the US at the current level, it can live without them. But if it plans to enhance its ties to the level of strategic coordination, or even cooperation, India would be well advised to sign them.

What would India gain by them? India could definitely benefit from BECA. The LSA can theoretically extend the reach of the Indian Navy deep into the Asia-Pacific region, where it has no base facilities. But this begs the question: does India intend operational deployment in those areas anytime in this decade?

The LSA could also be useful in Indian operations in its backyard in the Indian Ocean, but could it access American facilities in Oman for some future contingency in relation to Pakistan? Probably not.

The downsides of the CISMOA are obvious – it would enable the US to listen in on Indian conversations in operations where the US may be neutral or even adversarial, such as contingencies relating to Pakistan.

It is for this reason that India has refused to accept advanced communications equipment with US made C-130J transports and P8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft, and instead outfitted them with non-US communications equipment.

As for the US, it does not quite have to depend on an Indian LSA. It has prosecuted two wars in the past decade and more, without any real need for Indian facilities. But getting India to sign up on the LSA, CISMOA and BECA would serve the purpose of binding India closer to the US militarily, because it would make their equipment interoperable.

The US’ larger goals in its ties with India are no secret.The 2006 version of the National Security Strategy of the United States noted that US interests required a strong relationship with India, and that “India now is poised to shoulder global obligations in cooperation with the United States in a way befitting a major power.”

More recently, at the Raisina Dialogue on March 2, 2016, Admiral Harry B Harris, of the US Pacific Commander called for the two countries to not just exercise together, but “to conduct joint operations.” In the context of India’s exercising with Australia and Japan as well, he said, “As India takes a leading role as a world power, military operations with other nations will undoubtedly become routine.”

But the Indian perspective remains clouded because it has no declared national security strategy, and hence it is difficult to determine what exactly it is seeking from its relationship with the United States. The most obvious and general answer is that it wants high-technology, trade and good political ties with the world’s primary power which would aid its economic growth. Only the US has the clout to line up the Nuclear Suppliers Group to waive its rules governing civil nuclear trade, as it did in 2008. American blessings are needed to get rid of other technology restraints arising from the Wassenaar Arrangement or the Australia Group, and for the big prize – a permanent seat in the UN Security Council.

But would India be game for joint military operations? If so against whom? China or Pakistan, or some other party? These things could be fraught with hazards if they are not thought through. India and the US do not have a common world or regional view – the US may be inimical to China, but its relations with Beijing are denser than those between India and China.

Likewise, it may have difficulties with Pakistan, but not of the kind India has. India views good ties with Iran as a strategic asset, and the US position is different. The same could be said of Russia on whom the Indian military machine will be dependent for at least another decade and a half.

But the American pressure is very much on. The draft US-India Defence Partnership Act which was introduced in the US Congress some weeks back seeks to amend the US Arms Control and Export Control Act to give India a special status equivalent of US treaty allies and partners.

In addition, this act will call on the US president to “develop military contingency plans for addressing threats to mutual security interests” as well as call on the president to “annually assess the extent to which India possesses strategic operational capabilities to execute military operations of mutual interest to the United States and India.” Presumably, if India lacks those capabilities, the US will help to make up the deficit.

The obvious point is whether India wants that kind of a relationship with the US. “Military operations of mutual interest” implies a military alliance. And military alliances come up when there is an imminent sense of danger.

What India needs to do

So, the one calculation that India has to make is whether the balance of power in its region has become so skewed and the situation so dangerous in its relations with China that it needs a military alliance with the US to maintain the balance of power.

If indeed India we feel that we need US muscle to deal with China, we need to clearly assess whether or not Washington and New Delhi are on the same page on issues relating to not just the South China Sea, but the Sino-Indian border, the Sino-Pakistan relationship and so on. We need to gauge whether the US will be there for us if we need them. And that is where we go into an entirely new realm of analysis.

Actually, the real problem with India is its inability to be cynical about its relationship with the US. It tends to go overboard, and this is a special weakness of the NDA which when asked to bend, tends to crawl before Uncle Sam. In 2003, when the US asked for Indian troops to participate in the Iraq War, almost the entire NDA Cabinet backed the decision. It was just one wise man, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who stood against his entire cabinet committee on security lineup, and said “No.”

New Delhi should learn from the way other US allies and proto-allies have dealt with Washington. Countries like Turkey, Pakistan, and even China have gained a great deal of political and strategic support or military aid by lining up with the US. But at the end of the day they have played their own game. The trick, as discerning readers will detect, is not to be carried away by the rhetoric, and to relentlessly pursue the national interest (provided you have a clear idea of what the national interest is).

Finessing the ability to play Uncle Sam is the name of the game. If you are up to it, signing the foundational agreements is not a major problem – none of them are so drastic that they will by themselves alter the nature of the Indo-US relationship. At the bottom of all this is the vision you have for India. If you think partnering with the US will take you there, by all means do so. But first figure out where “there” is. Is it a “great nation” status, or an independent pole in a multi-polar world? Or do we have the gumption to dream, like China does, of becoming the lead – not the MEA’s ‘leading power’ in the future?

Unfortunately, what India really seems to be doing is making up for the lack of vision by bandwagoning with the US.

Manoj Joshi is a Distinguished Fellow, Observer Research Foundation.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

Text of H. R. 4825 Bill
A BILL

To enhance defense and security cooperation with India, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the “U.S.-India Defense Technology and Partnership Act”.

SEC. 2. ENHANCING DEFENSE AND SECURITY COOPERATION WITH INDIA.

(a) Findings.—Congress finds the following:

(1) The United States and India face mutual security threats and a robust defense partnership is in the interest of both countries.

(2) The relationship between the United States and India has developed over the past decade to become a multifaceted, major strategic partnership rooted in shared democratic values and the promotion of mutual prosperity, greater economic cooperation, regional peace, security, and stability.

(3) In 2012, the Department of Defense began an initiative to increase senior-level oversight and engagement on defense cooperation between the United States and India, which is referred to as the U.S.-India Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI).

(4) On June 3, 2015, the Government of the United States and the Government of India entered into an executive agreement entitled “Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship”, which renewed and updated the previous defense framework agreement between the United States and India, executed on June 28, 2005.

(5) Consistent with the Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship and the goals of the DTTI, it is in the interest of United States national security to improve defense cooperation and the alignment of systems with India, achieve greater interaction between the armed forces of both countries, increase the flow of technology and investment, develop capabilities and partnerships in co-development and co-production, and strengthen two-way defense trade.

(b) Sense Of Congress.—It is the sense of Congress that—

(1) the United States-India defense partnership is vital to regional and international stability and security;

(2) the interest of United States national security can be improved by further advancing the goals of the Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship and the effective operation of the DTTI;

(3) the President should take action to—

(A) formalize India’s status as a major partner of the United States;

(B) designate an official with experience in defense acquisition and technology to reinforce and ensure, through interagency policy coordination, the success of the Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship;

(C) approve and facilitate the transfer of advanced technology in the context of, and in order to satisfy, combined military planning with the Indian military for missions such as humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, counter piracy, and maritime domain awareness;

(D) strengthen the effectiveness of the DTTI and the durability of the Department of Defense’s “India Rapid Reaction Cell”;

(E) resolve issues impeding United States-India defense trade, security cooperation, and co-production and co-development opportunities;

(F) collaborate with the Government of India to develop mutually agreeable mechanisms to verify the security of defense technology information and equipment, such as tailored cyber security and end use monitoring arrangements;

(G) promote policies that will encourage the efficient review and authorization of defense sales and exports to India, including the treatment of military sales and export authorizations to India in a manner similar to that of the United States closest defense partners;

(H) pursue greater government-to-government and commercial military transactions between the United States and India; and

(I) support the development and alignment of India’s export control and procurement regimes with those of the United States and multilateral control regimes; and

(4) the President’s commitment to enhancing defense and security cooperation with India should be considered a priority with respect to advancing United States interests in the South Asia and greater Indo-Pacific regions.

(c) Military Contingency Plans.—The President is encouraged to coordinate with India on an annual basis to develop military contingency plans for addressing threats to mutual security interests of both countries.

(d) Assessment Required.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—The President shall, on an annual basis, carry out an assessment of the extent to which India possesses strategic operational capabilities to execute military operations of mutual interest between the United States and India. (Doubt this will be very popular in South Block where people grit their teeth every time a CAG report comes out. The Service HQs will probably look forward to it. LOL)

(2) USE OF ASSESSMENT.—The President shall ensure that the assessment described in paragraph (1) is used to inform the review by the United States of applications to sell or export defense articles, defense services, or technical data under the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.).

(3) FORM.—The assessment described in paragraph (1) shall, to the maximum extent practicable, be in classified form.

(4) DEFINITION.—In this subsection, the term “strategic operational capabilities” means the ability to execute military operations of mutual security interest while sustaining minimal damages and casualties, through the use of military means, possessed in sufficient quantity, including weapons, command, control, communication, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities.

(e) Foreign Military Sales And Export Status Under Arms Export Control Act.—The Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.) is amended—

(1) in sections 3(d)(2)(B), 3(d)(3)(A)(i), 3(d)(5), 36(b)(1), 36(b)(2), 36(b)(6), 36(c)(2)(A), 36(c)(5), 36(d)(2)(A), 62(c)(1), and 63(a)(2), by inserting “India,” before “or New Zealand” each place it appears;

(2) in section 3(b)(2), by inserting “the Government of India,” before “or the Government of New Zealand”; and

(3) in sections 21(h)(1)(A) and 21(h)(2), by inserting “India,” before “or Israel” each place it appears.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by salaam »

Modi's foreign policy relies on a few good men
http://southasiamonitor.org/detail.php?type=n&nid=16310
...Abdul Basit, hinted on Thursday that the army generals in Rawalpindi have had enough of talks with India...
... Obama speaking at the end of the Nuclear Security Summit almost equated the nuclear programmes and military doctrines of India and Pakistan. This is not entirely surprising given that the Obama-Sharif joint statement of October 2015 shockingly tried to equate the terror concerns of India and Pakistan with regard to each other...
...China’s “technical hold” against India’s attempt to proscribe Azhar by the UN comes, again, despite a recent precedent which should have alerted Indian leaders and diplomats. Beijing blocked India’s efforts in June last year to seek action against Pakistan for releasing Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi from prison...

India and Maldives: A make or break visit
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... eak-visit/
...Yameen’s India visit comes at the end of a couple of weeks of global silence on the Nasheed front for most parts. This is the third India visit for Yameen since becoming President in a judicially controversial and politically-contested election in November 2013...
...the overnight revival of Judge Abdulla abduction case and the consequent arrest of Nasheed in its wake led to Modi cancelling the Maldives leg of the first-ever four-nation Indian Ocean neighbourhood visit by an Indian prime minister, in March 2016...

Who is Winning the “Great Balancing Game” Between Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, and Iran?
http://eaworldview.com/2016/04/who-winn ... di-arabia/
...The priority which dictates Pakistan’s political engagement in the Middle East, other than religion, is its national security vis-à-vis India. There is a natural reluctance to bolster political ties with countries that enjoy strategic and defense partnerships with India...
...India is a rising economy in Asia with its huge market attracting global investment, but this industrialization can only be sustained with a secure energy base...
...Locked in a political turf war in the Middle East with Saudi Arabia and its other Gulf allies, Tehran needs security and defense partners to consolidate its regional standing...
...Since the ascent of King Salman to the throne, Saudi Arabia has adopted an aggressive and pro-active foreign policy against Iran, trying to isolate Tehran in the region. The kingdom is also aware of its own economic difficulties and a pressing need to find new markets for its petro-exports...

Saudi-India-Pakistan Triangle
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aparna-pa ... 06740.html
...After years of considering Saudi Arabia as a major ally and economic benefactor, Pakistan may be on the verge of losing its erstwhile patron to archrival India...
...King Salman bin Abdul Aziz conferred the Kingdom’s highest civilian award, The King Abdul Aziz Order, on the Indian Prime Minister. For Pakistanis who see the world in binary terms as an eternal conflict between India and Pakistan, this was clearly a win for India...
...Pakistan could stick to its guns and see these developments as a threat. Or it could change its own approach to India and seek rapprochement to take advantage of economic and strategic opportunities that are making India a desirable partner for Pakistan’s erstwhile friends...
svinayak
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by svinayak »

Viv S wrote:Manoj Joshi of ORF weighs in -

India is Making Up for the Lack of Vision by Bandwagoning with the US
BY MANOJ JOSHI

So, the one calculation that India has to make is whether the balance of power in its region has become so skewed and the situation so dangerous in its relations with China that it needs a military alliance with the US to maintain the balance of power.

If indeed India we feel that we need US muscle to deal with China, we need to clearly assess whether or not Washington and New Delhi are on the same page on issues relating to not just the South China Sea, but the Sino-Indian border, the Sino-Pakistan relationship and so on. We need to gauge whether the US will be there for us if we need them. And that is where we go into an entirely new realm of analysis.

Actually, the real problem with India is its inability to be cynical about its relationship with the US. It tends to go overboard, and this is a special weakness of the NDA which when asked to bend, tends to crawl before Uncle Sam.

Finessing the ability to play Uncle Sam is the name of the game. If you are up to it, signing the foundational agreements is not a major problem – none of them are so drastic that they will by themselves alter the nature of the Indo-US relationship. At the bottom of all this is the vision you have for India. If you think partnering with the US will take you there, by all means do so. But first figure out where “there” is. Is it a “great nation” status, or an independent pole in a multi-polar world? Or do we have the gumption to dream, like China does, of becoming the lead – not the MEA’s ‘leading power’ in the future?

Unfortunately, what India really seems to be doing is making up for the lack of vision by bandwagoning with the US.

Manoj Joshi is a Distinguished Fellow, Observer Research Foundation.


The real way to tacle China is economic growth and expansion. US India trade and commerce must the top priority first for this. Military agreement must be later.

It is late in the game to ask what is India national interest.

US has a game plan for asia. To intervene in the conflicts in Asia. It has created rogue nations and waiting for the conflicts to occur.
By showing no blocks to China during its expansion and south china sea US has put itself in a difficult situation in asia.
Pivot will not help much and direct confrontation will create more unstabel situation
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Vipul »

We have already missed bus to taking the economic route to tackle China. China is way ahead of us in every parameter. India will need at least a decade of consistent growth at 8% or more to be able to make some impact.By that time you will have China with its massive fleet of submarines and aircraft carriers making aggressive patrols in the IOR.
God only knows what they will be upto in the border areas. Lack of infrastructure does not even allow us to reach the border in a decent time.
Viv S
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

Vipul wrote:We have already missed bus to taking the economic route to tackle China. China is way ahead of us in every parameter. India will need at least a decade of consistent growth at 8% or more to be able to make some impact.By that time you will have China with its massive fleet of submarines and aircraft carriers making aggressive patrols in the IOR.
God only knows what they will be upto in the border areas. Lack of infrastructure does not even allow us to reach the border in a decent time.
That's the hard reality. Unfortunately, even if we're outpacing China - 8% to 4%, in absolute terms, they're still outgrowing us (their base being 4x larger).

And while the US mostly sticks to Diego Garcia & West Asia and is laying the ground for a total pullout from the Af-Pak region, the Chinese are digging into South Asia, and digging in hard.


Pakistan: The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor Gets Even More Ambitious

Afghanistan: China: Peacemaker in South Asia?

Maldives: Chinese investment proposals more attractive: Abdul Gayoom

Sri Lanka: Sri Lanka to make path for China to access Indian Ocean despite India's concerns

and then of course the country culturally and economically closest to us,

Nepal:

In China, Nepal's PM Seeks Alternative to India
Nepal inks 10 deals with China, cutting dependence on India
Nepal PM gets red carpet in China, signs deal for rail link via Tibet
Viv S
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

The Chinese will eventually co-opt the (traditionally pro-Russian) Central Asian states:

China Proposes New Central Asian Military Alliance
March 21, 2016

China's plans to create a new Central Asian security bloc have raised concerns in Moscow that Russia is declining geopolitically in Central Asia and may now be competing with China.

General Fang Fenghui, the chief of general staff of the People's Liberation Army, said on a visit to Kabul this month that China was proposing an anti-terror regional alliance consisting of Afghanistan, China, Pakistan, and Tajikistan. Almost no details about the grouping have been announced, but a spokesman for Afghanistan President Ashraf Ghani "said the Chinese military chief asked for Afghanistan's participation in the Chinese-proposed anti-terrorism mechanism with Pakistan and Tajikistan," VOA reported. "President Ghani has endorsed the proposal," the spokesman said.

China has been exploring a greater role in Afghan security; during Fang's visit he also promised $70 million in military aid to Afghanistan. But the fact that this proposed alliance would include Tajikistan, and exclude Russia, has raised alarm bells in Moscow. Russia has, until now, seen itself either as the primary security provider in Central Asia or, at times, a partner with China. But that may be changing.

"There is a danger in this new alliance, along with Pakistan and Afghanistan China is including Tajikistan, which Russia has until recently considered part of its zone of influence," said Andrey Serenko, of the Russian think tank Center for the Study of Contemporary Afghanistan, in an interview with the newspaper Izvestiya. "Russia's involvement in Ukraine and the Middle East have resulted in us losing our position in Central Asia. It appears that in this 'Central Asian NATO' under the Chinese umbrella, Russia may be the odd one out."

"The attempt to create this sort of military alliance, were it to be realized, would de facto reject the antiterror component of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization," wrote Central Asia analyst Alexander Knyazev in a piece in the newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta. "The existence of the Collective Security Treaty Organization in this case is completely being ignored." [Both groups are Central Asia-focused security organizations; China and Russia are both in the SCO; Russia leads the CSTO.]

This sort of rhetoric from Russia is particularly surprising in light of the central role China has played in the Kremlin's attempts to build a new, anti-Western world structure. The crisis in Ukraine and the fallout with the United States in Europe led Russia to strengthen ties with China. So it's remarkable to see these Kremlin-friendly analysts jump to the conclusion (which may be premature) that China is now a competitor with Russia in Central Asia, rather than a partner. "We are seeing now the first point of contention between Beijing and Moscow," Serenko said.

Officially, the Kremlin is being sanguine about the alliance. "This is about controlling borders and the infiltration of terrorists. This doesn't mean that China intends to use its armed forces," said Russia's special envoy to Afghanistan, Zamir Kabulov, in an interview with Izvestiya. "There's no reason for us to join. We have our own plans in the framework of the CSTO. Moreover, we discuss these issues with China in the framework of the SCO."

For what it's worth, the U.S. State Department has come out, tentatively, for the alliance: "China's a neighbor, and they have an interest in a strong, stable, terrorism-free Afghanistan,” an unnamed spokesperson told VOA. “And I understand President Ghani had some positive things to say about it. Again, we'd welcome any effort by the international community and members of the international community that would lead to a strong, prosperous, stable Afghanistan in the future. "

Unsurprisingly, there has been no official comment on this in Tajikistan. Recall that Tajikistan just completed huge joint military exercises with Russia on the border of Afghanistan, and that Knyazev said that Russia may be thereby trying to send a message to Tajikistan about China. Whatever the case, the exercise demonstrates that Russia's military ties with Tajikistan are far greater than China's. The latter are growing, however, and this most recent step seems to be sowing a bit of panic in Moscow with the realization that the days of their dominance in Central Asia are numbered.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ramana »

svinayak wrote:
The real way to tacle China is economic growth and expansion. US India trade and commerce must the top priority first for this. Military agreement must be later.

It is late in the game to ask what is India national interest.

US has a game plan for Asia. To intervene in the conflicts in Asia. It has created rogue nations and waiting for the conflicts to occur.

By showing no blocks to China during its expansion and south china sea US has put itself in a difficult situation in Asia.
Pivot will not help much and direct confrontation will create more unstable situation

I don't think so.
Ending colonialism in Asia and consequent Western dominance of Asia is an Indian national interest.


The pivot has failed and US is foisted on its own petard of backing China since 1970s Nixon's China Card.

Forty years down the drain. Led by missionary scholars. Mary Knoll , Yale Divinity school etc.

The very same US has empowered China with talk of G-2 etc.

After 1998 tests, US empowered China to take over Asia.

China is a demographic volcano. Let the eruption swell.
All India has to do is stand and let nature take its course.

Aligning with lame duck administrations and has been folks is not useful.

If Clinton comes to power she is anti-India and moreover pro-China.
If Trump comes he is in withdrawal mode.

So what does India get by signing with lame ducks who have been overboard at insulting India?

It will open India for Chinese attack either way. Just like 1962.

MEA had chosen the wrong side after the Soviet coup and had to retract in two days.

Let them not repeat by aligning with US.

The 1962 war had root causes of Nehru aligning with US without formally declaring and led to the debacle:
Tibet Khampa rebellion,
nuke monitoring from Nanga Parbhat etc.
U-2 flights from Charbhatia,
IB/RAW reengineered under US guidance.

Do nothing and prepare for retaliation as the fifth upaya suggested by Chanakaya.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana: Largely agree with you. I will elaborate with my understanding of events and the way forward in detail later. The one quick note I will leave with for now is, India truly cannot be compared to other nation-states the US has in its embrace. One cannot be a pole by standing on borrowed legs. It will be a travesty to let Indian interests be subservient to the US. At BK's event in DC at Carnegie Melllon, it was interesting to see these attitudes play out between Ashlis Telly and BK. All we have to do is prepare and not bend for now, does not mean our interests are served in full measure but no more bending!
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ramana »

Indian independence ended British Colonialism and Empire.
Seventy years on UK is a small shadow of itself surviving on laundering ill gotten money in its banks and territories. #PanamaPapersLeak.

US has its own issues and will withdraw to fight another day.

Chinese century is till 2050 when demographics kicks in. Before that the $ economy will be brought down to allow the withdrawal.

Like Rome retreated from Britannia after 400 A.D.
Same way for new Rome.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ramana »

X-post that ties some threads together....

{quote="Rudradev"}

Here's the situation as I see it.

Everything comes down to China. Russia and the US are both wooing China in ways that further their own respective spheres of influence. This is how.

What does China want? A secure route to its west. A safe, guaranteed way to bring goods to the EU markets (mainly) and bring back energy from the ME sources. A route that does not rely on American/Japanese/South Korean goodwill (the Pacific) and is not vulnerable to Indian blockade (the Malacca strait).


Both Russia and the US are wooing China with this carrot: two alternative routes to the west, for which they will stand guarantee. Now let us examine these routes being offered.

In Russia's case the proposed route is from Xinjiang via Central Asian (CIS) states to Iran>ME, and across Russia proper to the EU. The "Silk Route" in other words, under SCO dominion with Iran, China and Russia forming the bulwarks of a continental "Fortress Asia".

To stymie this, the US is encouraging Shia-Sunni conflict in the ME, and also building up ISIS dreams of a Sunni "Khorasan" that will place itself bodily across such a route and destroy any sense of security.

So what route is the US offering to China instead? Lanzhou MR into Pakistan and thence to Gwadar... bypassing the straits of Malacca and directly into the Indian Ocean and Gulf, under US dominion. USN/CENTCOM will guarantee security of the sea routes from the Arabian Sea on to the Mediterranean, and thence EU.


Note that there are two ways from Lanzhou MR into Pakistan. One is via Afghanistan. The US is leaning hard on Ashraf Ghani to create a dispensation acceptable to Islamabad that Pakistan can stand guarantee for. The Afghans are resisting, because this inevitably means giving in to Paki dominance; but they are under considerable pressure from three larger powers (US, China, and Pakistan) to go along. Pakistan's main concern is that India should be shut out of Afghanistan. China is in agreement with this for many reasons. US is also in agreement because Pakistani compliance is a key piece of the carrot that they want to offer China... the route west via Af-Pak, which will wean China away from a "Silk Route" plan in collaboration with Russia.

Now, Afghanistan still remains riddled with security concerns, and will be for the foreseeable future. Hence China is exploring a second route west, via CPEC. Lanzhou MR into Pak-occupied NA and POK, and thence into Pakistan proper to Gwadar. This is also in US interests because the US will dominate the sealanes from Gwadar to the Gulf or to the Mediterranean; hence, China taking this option will also make Beijing more dependent on the US.

Note that an important factor to consider for the US, if they want China to go along with either of the proposed westward routes through Gwadar, is that India is not far away from Gwadar. If the Chinese become dependent on this westward egress, India is capable of plunging multiple daggers into their side... either off the Paki coast, or in Baluchistan, or in Kashmir/NA, or even in Afghanistan.

This is why US is leaning on India to turn its back on its western flank and "look east". In this way, India becomes a pehredar for the South China Sea and Malacca Straits... securing a choke-point that serves the US' PACCOM interests more than our own, and which the US itself is helping to make redundant as a choke-point by supporting a trans-Gwadar westward route for China. Essentially we will be helping police the US' allies' interests in the South China Sea, playing Gungadin to support the US hegemony of security guarantees to ASEAN and the Philippines; meanwhile China itself will have free, US-guaranteed access to its west via Gwadar where we have turned a blind eye.


Do I really need to spell out why this is unacceptable?

A thousand times, no. We need to pull out ALL the stops to make sure that both the CPEC route via POK/NA, and if possible the Af-Pak-Gwadar route via Afghanistan, cannot work for China. We have to destroy any sense of security Beijing might have regarding the carrots that the US is holding out to China. Too bad for the US and its interests. It is in OUR interest that these routes never become established routes of commerce that the world economy depends on, and that the "international community" will later band together to protect if threatened.

If that ever happens, goodbye Kashmir, goodbye Afghanistan.

Unless the US is prepared to see that the carrot of a westward route that it is offering China runs directly contrary to Indian interests... and agrees to fully accommodate Indian interests in this regard... Carter (and every carpetbagger who travels to India in his wake) should go back with absolutely nothing from us.

{/quote}

Can be posted in multiple threads.

Also US is getting ready to pull down the old 1977 accord created to pull down FSU. The actors have grown too big and are threatening US itself.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by NRao »

Philip
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Philip »

Ramanna,excellent analysis.I'd earlier said that perhaps Churchill was right,about our inability to govern ourselves.Our great post-Independence ambitions of the 21st century are to be standing tall and proud...behind a white man,asking him to lead us,protect us,feed us,and b*gger us too,as we are unable to chart out our own destiny ourselves. This is perhaps becos of the innate selfishness of the Indian political-cum-babu class,unwilling to make sacrifices like our Freedom fighters whose sacrifices now appear to be in vain,as we are in some danger of becoming a neo-colonial vassal state again. Who knows,sometime in the future we may see history revisited as Indian soldiers take part in a foreign war ,taking up the "white-man's burden" yet again!

This is exactly how the East India Co. arrived on Indian shores. They came to trade but with the British Raj began to raid!

Logistics. Lovely word. "Look here you pesky Injuns,it's nothing great,just storing our cool stuff in your godowns." Later on. "These are our stuff don't you know,therefore the godowns must be under our control." Later on. "Godowns under our control-you acknowledge that? Thus the ports and bases must also be under our control.For this privilege,here's some whampum,now buzz off with your goods and chattels,but we'll allow you to run the tea stalls!"
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by arun »

Excerpt from the final communique of the OIC meet dealing with Jammu & Kashmir shows yet another misstep regards the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by the BJP led Government of our Prime Minister Narendra Modi:
FINAL COMMUNIQUE OF THE 13TH ISLAMIC SUMMIT OF THE HEADS OF STATE/GOVERNMENT OF THE OIC MEMBER STATES

Date: 15/04/2016

21. The Conference reaffirmed its principled support forthe people of Jammu and Kashmir for the realization of their legitimate right to self-determination, in accordance with relevant UN resolutions and aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. It further reaffirmed that Jammu and Kashmir is the core dispute between Pakistan and India and its resolution is indispensable for bringing peace in South Asia.

22. The Conference called on India to implement numerous UN resolutions on Kashmir which declare that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir would be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. It further reminded the international community of its obligation to ensure implementation of UN resolutions on Kashmir and fulfill the promise made with the people of Jammu and Kashmir 68 year ago.

23. The Conference affirmed its support to the wide-spread indigenous movement of the people of the Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir (IOK) for their right to self-determination. It urged that freedom struggle must not be equated with terrorism.

24. The Conference expressed concern at the indiscriminate use of force and gross violations of human rights committed in IOK by Indian security forces which have resulted in killing thousands of innocent and unarmed civilians as well as injuring hundreds of others including women, children and elderly, most recently the killing of a 22 year old woman, Ms. Shaista Hameed in Pulwama on 14 February 2016.

25. The Conference welcomed the establishment of a standing mechanism by the OIC Independent Permanent Human Rights Commission (IPHRC) for monitoring the human rights situation in the Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. The Conference called upon India to allow the OIC Fact Finding Mission and the international human rights groups and humanitarian organizations to visit IOK. The Conference endorsed the recommendations of the OIC Contact Group on Jammu and Kashmir. It took note of the Memorandum presented by the True Representatives of the Kashmiri People to the Contact Group at its recent meeting.

26. The Conference called on the Islamic Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization (ISESCO) and the Research Center for Islamic History, Art and Culture (IRCICA) to undertake activities to protect holy sites in Kashmir and preserve cultural rights and Islamic heritage. The Conference appealed to the Member States and Muslim institutions to grant scholarships to the Kashmiri students in deferent universities and institutions in OIC countries.

OIC declaration on Jammu & Kashmir proves former Ambassador M.K.Bhadra Kumar was right when he dismissed the agreement on terrorism between India and Saudi Arabia concluded earlier this month as being about Iran rather than the Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s and BJP Party’s spin that it targeted the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Very disappointing that the Saudi’s have certainly befooled our Prime Minister at the minimal cost of granting a civilian award. Then off course there is the separate but related matter of the counter-terrorism agreement with the UAE which once again touted as a major success against :

OIC declaration on Jammu & Kashmir proves former Ambassador M.K.Bhadra Kumar was right when he dismissed the agreement on terrorism between India and Saudi Arabia concluded earlier this month as being about Iran rather than the Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s and BJP Party’s spin that it targeted the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Very disappointing that the Saudi’s have certainly befooled our Prime Minister at the minimal cost of granting a civilian award. Then off course there is the separate but related matter of the counter-terrorism agreement with the UAE which once again was touted as a major success against the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:
A second outcome of Modi’s Saudi visit, duly highlighted by our spin doctors, is that the two countries are entering an unprecedented level of cooperation and coordination in the security field in the fight against terrorism. The joint statement devoted four paragraphs to it.

However, a dark cloud has appeared on the horizon in no time, with a Saudi official claiming that they read the joint statement largely as aimed at Iran, which, they believe is fostering terrorism in the region. Of course, our security czars had assumed that Modi brilliantly secured Saudi Arabia’s support in controlling Pakistani state sponsorship of terrorism.

In fact, the Pakistani coverage of Modi’s Saudi visit confirms an impression that Salman may have used Modi’s shoulder to take a pot-shot at the Iranians. Perhaps, that explains why Salman felt so obliged to Modi as to confer the Abdulaziz Sash, our PM’s controversial reputation on the Arab Street as the “butcher of Gujarat” notwithstanding.

Unsurprisingly, adrenaline began flowing in the Saudi veins and they have since imposed new measures against Iran by closing the Saudi air space to Iranian civilian flights and prohibiting tankers carrying Iranian crude from transiting Saudi waters (external links here and here).


Salman probably concluded that with Modi on his side, Iran’s regional “isolation” is now complete. Indeed, the Saudis have offered to Modi that they can replace Iran as India’s key energy partner in the region. They are paranoid about the prospect of an imminent reset of India-Iran ties.

Rediff
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by SSridhar »

^ I was more disappointed with the reaction of Vikas Swarup when he said that India 'regretted' the OIC resolution. It should either have been ignored by saying India would not respond to toothless two-bit organizations with an agenda or it should have been more hard-hitting asking these countries to turn the search light on themselves, asking them why people in their parts of the world are revolting and joining freedom-fighting groups (now that freedom-fighting is not terrorism for OIC), why they are harshly putting down such movements etc.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ShauryaT »

The thinking of a thinker in our govt and potentially our next NSA.

Indian Foreign Secretary Subrahmanyam Jaishankar’s Remarks
It is said that the hallmark of a serious power is its ability to pursue competing goals at the same time. That overstatement does bring out an underlying reality – of optimally reconciling the pulls and pressures of global politics. Playing the game on a bigger stage and at a higher level does need more engagement, better understanding and bolder policies. Above all, it requires an adaptation to change, a pre-condition to be able to use it to advantage. This process can be unsettling and proponents of the status quo will always make their arguments. Timidity may be presented as caution and inaction as prudence. Every solution could have a problem. But the world is not standing still and neither can India. Whatever the pace and extent of this change, history has lessons for an aspiring power: leverage the dominant, collaborate with the convergent, and manage the competition.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by SSridhar »

A ‘much-needed message’ to India’s neighbours - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
The many strategic decisions agreed upon during U.S. Defence Secretary Ashton Carter’s visit last week to India opens up not just new possibilities but also challenges, say specialists in the defence sector. Many of them also see a message for India’s neighbourhood, especially China, in the decisions.

During Mr. Carter’s meetings, both sides reached an “in-principle” understanding on concluding the first of the three foundational agreements, the Logistical Exchange Memorandum of Understanding (LEMOA), which has been in the works for over a decade.

The former Navy Chief, Admiral Arun Prakash, felt that it was a long-delayed step and a much-needed message India had to send to China. “India needs more support as it cannot stand against China on its own either militarily or economically. Some kind of message had to be sent. It doesn’t mean we are allying with the U.S.,” he said.

On a similar note, Dr. Richard M. Rossow, Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said, “I would certainly not characterise progress in our security relationship as ‘too fast’.”

He said the U.S. was not asking India to take specific actions. “I believe the visit, and resultant agreements to deepen U.S.-India defence cooperation, are signposts of progress in actualising our shared security interests,” he said.

India’s neighbours, whose security interests are not aligned with India’s own interests, may be sitting a bit more uneasily today.

Dr. Rossow said a stronger India, acting in its own security interests, was a very good thing for American interests.

The LEMOA, a modified logistics support agreement, addressing Indian concerns entails the militaries of two nations to share facilities for refuelling, supplies and spares. The U.S. has similar arrangements with over 80 countries.

Far-reaching consequences


Stephen P. Cohen, Senior Fellow at Brookings Institution, said the agreement would have far-reaching consequences. “I favour the arrangement, but there will be new risks as well as new prospects,” he said. “What if the U.S. asked for help in facilitating its military engagement in Afghanistan? What if India were to tangle on a border with China or Pakistan [as happened before]?”
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

SSridhar wrote:The former Navy Chief, Admiral Arun Prakash, felt that it was a long-delayed step and a much-needed message India had to send to China. “India needs more support as it cannot stand against China on its own either militarily or economically. Some kind of message had to be sent. It doesn’t mean we are allying with the U.S.,” he said.
:-o

Man doesn't mince words. No ego issues standing in the way of recognizing a rather obvious truth. But then again, the Navy has always been more aware of the big picture compared to its sister services.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Ashokk »

Masood Azhar issue: India uses Uighur card to up the ante against China
NEW DELHI: With India pressing China to explain its reasons for the "technical hold" on designating Masood Azhar a global terrorist, China has responded by saying India should consult with Pakistan.

Speaking to TOI in Delhi, Liu Jinsong, charge d'affaires in the Chinese embassy in New Delhi reiterated the position. "China is against all forms of terrorism. We have put a technical hold, not a veto. It is not an issue between China and India. We would prefer that you talk to Pakistan."

Indian officials met Chinese counterparts in Beijing, New York and New Delhi as India tried to draw China out on its reasons.

India, sources said, was willing to delete details in the document to allow China to lift the "hold". In recent days, China has continued to justify its action.

In Beijing, the foreign ministry spokesperson also defended China's action."China always deals with the listing of 1267 committee based on facts and pursuant to UN Security Council resolutions and relevant rules in a fair manner," he said. This was in response to Indian permanent representative to the UN Syed Akbaruddin, slamming a "hidden veto" in the 1267 committee.

The Chinese foreign ministry said, "Both China and India fall victim to terrorism and share similar positions when it comes to combating terrorism."

Separately, however, India might be quietly upping the ante. A group of activists from the Washington-based World Uighur Congress will be visiting Dalai Lama in Dharamsala for an inter-ethnic, inter-faith dialogue organized by the spiritual leader.

They will join groups from around 15 countries in a US Institute of Peace program.

According to the think tank, "This dialogue will help them build practical skills and personal resilience they need to work against the tensions or violence in their homelands." India had denied a visit by Rebiya Kadeer, Uighur leader in 2009.


India has a list of other terror leaders who it wants to see listed as terrorists by the UNSC's 1267 committee. It's not clear how many of them will be blocked by China.

The next round of discussions between India and China are liable to be dominated by this incident.

NSA Ajit Doval is expected to have a strategic dialogue with state councillor Yang Jiechi in Beijing later this week where it will be raised again.

This dialogue comes after almost a year, which is unusual. Doval cancelled his last meeting because of the Pathankot attack.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by James »

ashokk wrote:Masood Azhar issue: India uses Uighur card to up the ante against China
NEW DELHI: With India pressing China to explain its reasons for the "technical hold" on designating Masood Azhar a global terrorist, China has responded by saying India should consult with Pakistan.

Speaking to TOI in Delhi, Liu Jinsong, charge d'affaires in the Chinese embassy in New Delhi reiterated the position. "China is against all forms of terrorism. We have put a technical hold, not a veto. It is not an issue between China and India. We would prefer that you talk to Pakistan."
So the Paki tail is wagging the Chinese dog?
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by sum »

^^ Finally, the Doval doctrine which he kept putting up in all his earlier talks before becoming NSA falling into place, defensive offence and having few cards in hand while negotiating.

The pinpricks towards both China and TSP will only increase in future ( already quite many Baloch leaders camping around Desh, now Uighur leadres turning up), i believe and maybe some other measures might have started in the background
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by sum »

^^ Seems a Kumbh mela of anti-Chinese are being assembled:

Chinese dissidents to meet in India to seek democracy
Chinese dissidents from around the world will assemble in India next week to hold an international conference seeking transition to democracy in the communist country.

New Delhi not only gave its go-ahead to the organisers to hold the conference in India, but also granted visas to Chinese dissidents, including the World Uyghur Congress leader, Dolkun Isa, who has been dubbed as a “terrorist” by Beijing. The conference will be held from April 28 to May 1 at Dharamsala in Himachal Pradesh – the seat of the Tibetan Government-in-Exile. Dalai Lama, who has been leading Tibetans’ struggle against Chinese rule in Tibet, will receive the delegates and address them.
The conference – titled “Strengthening Our Alliance to Advance the Peoples’ Dream: Freedom, Justice, Equality and Peace” – is being organised by a US-based organisation Citizen Power for China (CFC), which is led by well-known exiled Chinese dissident and a 1989 Tiananmen Square activist, Yang Jianli. The participants will include China’s pro-democracy activists, representatives of the communist country’s ethnic and religious minorities like Tibetans, Uyghurs, Mongolians, Christians, Falun Gong practitioners, Muslims and Buddhists as well as delegates from Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ShauryaT »

^now that is what is called hitting where it hurts. Good start.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Philip »

The good admiral is right on one count but wrong on ganging up with the US.India must stand on its own feet when dealing with China,should hugely increase its mil strength,a small fraction of the def budget and revolutionise its mindset military,bureaucracy and political executive in strategic thinking.Did little Vietnam when invaded by China turn to friends for help? No,it did not,safe in the knowledge that it had defeated the french,Americans all on its own and would kick Chinese ass too-which it did!

Our politicos and babus today display proudly the badges of cowards and are forcing our military to think likewise-that without friends and joining a mil alliance we cannot deal with China. Thus we have already lost the battle before it has begun! Does anyone honestly think that with US help we will defeat China? Will the US come to our aid? Look at how ISIS-not even a formal nation is kicking US ass in the MEast.How the Taliban has resurfaced and is running riot in Afghanistan after the US has spent trillions..all for nothing. The US was scared of even bombing Syria.Will it gird its loins and attack China? :rotfl:

What the US wants is frontline troops,cannon fodder ,while it barks out orders from the rear.Since our political and babu tribes believe that lives are cheap in India-look at the manner in which the families of our martyrs have to run from pillar to post to get their promised compensation,etc.,we may yet repeat the sacrifices of WW1 and WW2 having learnt nothing.

PS:Remember Sumdorung Chu? Did we go crawling to Uncle Sam or the Bear? NO! Gen.Sunderji stood firm and it was the Chinese who blinked!
In October, Deng Xiaoping warned India that China would have to ‘teach India a lesson’. This was conveyed by the US Defense Secretary.

It is known as Operation Falcon. In its obituary (Warrior as Scholar) of General K. Sundarji, then Army Chief, India Today wrote: “Sundarji’s place in history will probably rest on the lesser-known Operation Falcon. Spooked by the Chinese occupation of Sumdorong Chu in 1986, Sundarji used the air force’s new air-lift capability to land a brigade in Zimithang, north of Tawang. Indian forces took up positions on the Hathung La ridge, across the Namka Chu river, the site of India’s humiliating 1962 defeat and manned defences across the McMahon Line. Taken aback, the Chinese responded with a counter-build-up and in early 1987 Beijing’s tone became ominously similar to that of 1962. Western diplomats predicted war and Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi’s advisers charged that Sundarji’s recklessness was responsible for this. But the general stood firm, at one point telling a senior Rajiv aide, ‘Please make alternate arrangements if you think you are not getting adequate professional advice’. The civilians backed off, so did the Chinese.”
The Sumdorong Chu Incident: a strong Indian stand
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/the- ... ian-stand/
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by member_27581 »

ShauryaT wrote:^now that is what is called hitting where it hurts. Good start.
Certainly it is a good start. For last 10 years I have been wondering is it only us who have faultlines. Porkies certainly have numerous. But we never used them.
Good to see slow and steady increase in tempo of POK and Balochistan. As for China I would prefer using the Dalai lama and Tibet card more rather than using Uighur ones.
With porkis it is good but lizard is no small chess player. Hope NM, MP and AD are prepared for the chinese response and have thought some counter to it.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:The good admiral is right on one count but wrong on ganging up with the US.
The good admiral quite explicitly said that we're not getting into an alliance with the US.
India must stand on its own feet when dealing with China,should hugely increase its mil strength,a small fraction of the def budget and revolutionise its mindset military,bureaucracy and political executive in strategic thinking.
'Hugely' increasing India's military strength is an inane proposal. There are no free lunches in the world, unless your objective is to turn us into a new North Korea. Every rupee spent on defence is a rupee not spent on roads, power, ports, education, sanitation, health etc. All of which has a bearing on medium and long term economic prospects which in turn directly influences the money available for defence in the future. What it basically amounts to, is mortgaging your children's security for your own. China, for the record, spends less than us on defence, as a percentage of the GDP, and invests more.
Did little Vietnam when invaded by China turn to friends for help? No,it did not,safe in the knowledge that it had defeated the french,Americans all on its own and would kick Chinese ass too-which it did!
Riiight... so you're proposing we fight a 'people's war'? Our bodybags vs their bodybags, technology be damned.

Or do you think Vietnam's 'martial attitude and history' is going to enable the 30 fighter jet strong VPAF to prevail against the PLAAF? Is the VPN with its six submarines and four corvettes really capable of fighting off the PLAN's fleet (which is adding more than ten times that tonnage every year) and defending its maritime interests?

Why do you think 'little Vietnam' is scaling up their defence ties with the US (and Japan & India), despite their history (which makes India-US relations look wonderfully rosy in comparison)?
Our politicos and babus today display proudly the badges of cowards and are forcing our military to think likewise-that without friends and joining a mil alliance we cannot deal with China. Thus we have already lost the battle before it has begun! Does anyone honestly think that with US help we will defeat China? Will the US come to our aid?
We're signing a logistics pact with the US not entering an alliance (as Adm Prakash's statement made amply clear, I believe). :roll:

And who says that there's no middle ground between a cold cordial relationship and a full scale military alliance? That's unimaginative one-dimensional woolly-headed thinking. Do China and Pakistan have a military alliance? No. Does that mean the IA & IAF are free to focus their resources on a single front during a war?
PS:Remember Sumdorung Chu? Did we go crawling to Uncle Sam or the Bear? NO! Gen.Sunderji stood firm and it was the Chinese who blinked
In late 1986, India was at its peak in military terms with the conventional balance vis a vis China possible tilted in its favour. Meanwhile, China was led by Deng Xiaoping who was determined not let his plan for his country's economic modernization, from which his party derived legitimacy, be jeopardized by any avoidable military entanglements.

The contrast with the prevailing situation today, and with the potential situation in the years to come should be quite obvious after even a rudimentary examination of the facts.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ramana »

Good admiral is fooling no body. its a slippery slope of an alliance.

Nehruji also did same thing with informal arrangements to help US in the Khampa rebellion and all that.
Mrs G allowed nuke powered monitoring stations in Nanda Devi and U2 flights from Chabatia,. She handed over RAW to them to remake the IB external wing.
Nothing prevented US from sending Task force 74 to Bay of Bengal.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

ramana wrote:Good admiral is fooling no body. its a slippery slope of an alliance.
Its a statement, or more accurately, a warning to the Chinese about the threat of a future alliance. They need to keep in mind that the pace at which Indo-US relations evolve is proportional to Chinese bellicosity on the border and the rate at which their footprint within our area of interest expands.

Their rising economic and military profile rightly gives them the confidence to be assertive, but the realization that a strong and explicitly anti-China alliance awaits at the end of that road, should temper their attitude. In theory at least.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by ShauryaT »

viv S: You are either not getting what Phillip is saying or are on a different page. You cannot bean count your way to strategic alliances by saying China's GDP is X today, or they have this missile or this aircraft and these many subs. The example of Vietnam was not to say they are more powerful than PRC but the Vietnamese know how to fight and 1979, the Chinese set out to teach them a lesson too but in turn China learned a lesson or two also - again.

The calculus of strategic alliances has many hard and soft factors in play, current and future likely states of being, interests and conflicts to manage. You just cannot harp on the current state of the being and justify actions that impede a future state. For those saying, let us do this today and in 20 years let us change are just fooling themselves and this nation - it does not work this way. Our independence and sovereignty are extremely hard won. Shame on the generation that compromises with it to such a degree that there would be no recourse. The only way to justify these agreements is to accept that we cannot compete by ourselves and need alliances. In that case, we should recalibrate that we no longer seek to be an independent pole in the polity of global nation-states. It is possible the Admiral has come to that view but has not spoketh the words or more likely, has not thought through the "architecture" of these agreements and is viewing them tactically.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by member_23370 »

There is no alliance. Nothing has been signed and nothing of importance will be. The Russia card about Akula and S-400 are probably floated by GoI itself to scuttle the LSA.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

ShauryaT wrote:viv S: You are either not getting what Phillip is saying or are on a different page. You cannot bean count your way to strategic alliances by saying China's GDP is X today, or they have this missile or this aircraft and these many subs. The example of Vietnam was not to say they are more powerful than PRC but the Vietnamese know how to fight and 1979, the Chinese set out to teach them a lesson too but in turn China learned a lesson or two also - again.
The Vietnamese may or may not 'know how to fight', either way their surface fleet will be at the bottom of the sea within six hours, and their air force grounded (one way or the other) within 24 hours of a war breaking out with China. The gung-ho attitude espoused by Philip, does not change the cold hard mathematics of their military equation.

While the balance with India isn't nearly as lopsided, its still strongly in China's favour and continues to grow. (From their military's perspective, India is a secondary concern - their focus is on dominating the US upto the First Island Chain for now, and upto and beyond Guam in the future.)
The calculus of strategic alliances has many hard and soft factors in play, current and future likely states of being, interests and conflicts to manage. You just cannot harp on the current state of the being and justify actions that impede a future state.
In hard power terms, our future state (next 10 years) is going to be worse. As for the future future state, we may achieve parity with the US by mid-century. And our foreign policy will continue to evolve with our geopolitical circumstances.
For those saying, let us do this today and in 20 years let us change are just fooling themselves and this nation - it does not work this way. Our independence and sovereignty are extremely hard won. Shame on the generation that compromises with it to such a degree that there would be no recourse. The only way to justify these agreements is to accept that we cannot compete by ourselves and need alliances. In that case, we should recalibrate that we no longer seek to be an independent pole in the polity of global nation-states. It is possible the Admiral has come to that view but has not spoketh the words or more likely, has not thought through the "architecture" of these agreements and is viewing them tactically.
We've never (willingly) compromised on our independence or sovereignty. But I still can't vacation in Aksai Chin this June now, can I? Even though all my maps show it to be a part of India. Can't make plans for a summer in Gilgit either. Chinese troops and workers, in contrast, are all over PoK enjoying the sights while developing their access route to the IOR.

Which generation is responsible for that?

If I can live with that, I imagine I can live with an Indo-US agreement hinting at a possible future alliance (the text of which does not impinge upon Indian sovereignty at all).
KrishnaK
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by KrishnaK »

ramana wrote:Good admiral is fooling no body. its a slippery slope of an alliance.

Nehruji also did same thing with informal arrangements to help US in the Khampa rebellion and all that.
Mrs G allowed nuke powered monitoring stations in Nanda Devi and U2 flights from Chabatia,. She handed over RAW to them to remake the IB external wing.
Nothing prevented US from sending Task force 74 to Bay of Bengal.
Those are examples of transactional relationships which you seem to espouse.
Dulles needed fighting men in South Asia for his encirclement of Soviet communism, and the Pakistanis were ready to join the crusade. India, he said, did not have “the right not only to remain neutral herself but to prevent other countries from lining up with the West.”
A complete lack of engagement with west other than running to them for handouts and then lecturing them from our high horse meant they could take actions that affected us without anything to lose.
member_23370
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by member_23370 »

A transactional relationship is the only possible solution. Regarding cold war, Nehru was right about south asia being left alone and pakistan has found out that he was correct to their detriment.
Philip
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Philip »

I posted details about how China blinked with Gen,Sunderji's stand at Sumdorung Chu. Strangely,the advocates of jumping into Uncle Sam's bed are silent abut it! A famous analysts/historian once wrote that China would "push its sword deeper and deeper until it met steel". At Sumdorung Chu it met Indian steel. The Chinese philosophy is to win a war without firing a shot.Would they have dared to occupy an Indian island (had we had one) in the ICS? The problem today is that the defeatist mentality has struck many in the establishment,who think that unless they have a "Big Brother" behind them they will lose. Vietnam showed that size does not matter.They have defeated the French,Americans and its Western mercenary allies and China! Surely India,a global giant can do as well!

We are protesting about PLA troops in POK.With the LEMOA signing,China will definitely view it as India ganging up with the US against it.It will take countermeasures to defend itself.Will China give us the time of day on this extremely critical issue? What will we do if China moves a few divisions into POK,will we go weeping to uncle Sam to bail us out? :rotfl:

So those advocates of India jumping into a "rent-boy" relationship with the US do not want a strong Indian military,unless the arms are mostly Yanqui,which can be controlled by the US. This is exactly what the US wants,the castrating of India militarily.By forging these agreements,India becomes more and more beholden to Uncle Sam by the day. Our sovereignty and independence will be whittled down before we even know it,and the US will then make a deal under the table with China,demanding its price for castrating India! This was the Clintonian agenda which thankfully an aging mooing Madbright has reminded us about."India has shot itself in the foot",she infamously shrieked after our P-2 N-tests.Sanctions swiftly followed,hamperign many critical defence projects liek the LCA.The US and China double-teamed to castrate India,but failed because of ABV.He never succumbed to sanctions,etc. The world finally came around and accepted India as an N-weapons state.

Today despite Pak being the largest manufacturer of N-weapons ,the US continues to supply it with arms.It does so well knowing about its terror against India.We now have revelations the the UK's GCHQ knew all about the planned 26/11 attacks but kept quiet so that its bum-chum,Pak,would not be affected. Western duplicity is legion. We will regret enormously one day if LEMOA,etc. is signed.
Last edited by Philip on 22 Apr 2016 12:37, edited 1 time in total.
Kashi
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Kashi »

KrishnaK wrote: A complete lack of engagement with west other than running to them for handouts and then lecturing them from our high horse meant they could take actions that affected us without anything to lose.
Sure and the "West" has rarely mounted the "high horse" in your esteemed opinion.
Viv S
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:I posted details about how China blinked with Gen,Sunderji's stand at Sumdorung Chu. Strangely,the advocates of jumping into Uncle Sam;s bed are silent abut it!A famous analysts/historian once wrote that China would "push its sword deeper and deeper until it met steel". At Sumdorung Chu it met Indian steel. The Chinese philosophy is to win a war without firing a shot.Would they have dared to occupy an Indian island (had we had one) in the ICS? The problem today is that the defeatist mentality has struck many in the establishment,who think that unless they have a "Big Brother" behind them they will lose.
To put your point simply - the Chinese are cowards and they'll run away at the first sign of real resistance (never-mind the fact that the situation was actually defused by the GoI, after ND Tiwari flew to Beijing, followed soon after by RG). Interestingly, the Pakistanis tell a similar tale about 1987 as well - that India was poised to invade (Op Brasstacks) but a resolute counter-mobilization by the PA & PAF broke its spirit. We too ought to go all the way and adopt a new motto, 1 Indian = 10 Chinese.
The Chinese philosophy is to win a war without firing a shot.
Is that how 1962 went?
Vietnam showed that size does not matter. They have defeated the French,Americans and its Western mercenary allies and China! Surely India,a global giant can do as well!
You're reiterating your statement to duck the main question - why is mighty little Vietnam escalating defence ties with the US & Japan (both of whom are former wartime oppressors)?
We are protsting about PLA troops in POK.
Do you think the Chinese are losing sleep over our 'protests'?
With the LEMOA signing,Chiona will definitely view it as India ganging up with the US against it.It will take countermeasures to defend itself.Will China give us the time of day on this extremely critical issue? What will we do if China moves a few divisions into POK,will we go weeping to uncle Sam to bail us out?
Translation: We can't afford to antagonize China (else it will take 'countermeasures').
Kashi
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Kashi »

Viv S wrote:Translation: We can't afford to antagonize China (else it will take 'countermeasures').
It's irrelevant if it antagonises China that India and US have signed LEMOA. The key question is how does it enhance and strengthen our military preparedness against China. It's tad unclear at this point.
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by Bhurishrava »

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 78674.html
India's move to grant visa to World Uyghur Congress (WUC) leader Dolkun Isa for a visit to the country has irked China.
RajeshA
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by RajeshA »

Kashi wrote:
Viv S wrote:Translation: We can't afford to antagonize China (else it will take 'countermeasures').
It's irrelevant if it antagonises China that India and US have signed LEMOA. The key question is how does it enhance and strengthen our military preparedness against China. It's tad unclear at this point.
The only thing worse than insecurity is false sense of security.
member_23370
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Re: Indian Foreign Policy

Post by member_23370 »

True and that''s why A-5 canister based test and K-4 tests must be completed and deployed.
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