Indo-UK: News & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Lalmohan wrote:does "anglo-indian" still have meaning as a label? atleast, does it have the meaning it used to?
there are a lot of mixed children born in the UK with one parent from Indian origin and the other from anywhere else on the globe
within India itself, the people of mixed parentage will either blend in gentically or die out
In the south the Anglo Indians were well thought of. They mixed well and socialized easily across communities. They lived in pockets and were gregarious and industrious. I have never come across such a "label" as you speak of.

I do not have much knowledge of their society in the north of India.

Anglo Indian generally meant people of mixed blood born in India and their descendants. This was generally a english Indian combo.

The descendants of mixed blood portuguese Indian combo were rarely called Anglo Indian unless by mistake or ignorance. All these people claim their gora ancestor to be of noble blood and what not. The true Anglo Indians very rarely did that because most of their ancestors were soldiers and suchlike common folk. As was often the case with the portuguese lot. :)

Anglo Indian implied a good command over the english language which other mixed blood groups often did not have.

A great many British Indian mixed blood combinations exist today which are rarely called Anglo Indian though in the strict sense of the term they probably are.

Anglo Indian, as mentioned before had colonial connotations. These days one cannot put such a construct
on post independence, Indian father migrated to england and married british wife families.

In my own family we have Indian father-english wife and Indian father-american wife, Indian father-european wife combos and vice versa too. Never heard of the kids being referred to as Anglo Indians.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Dileep »

The Anglo Indians here in DMA are of portugese lineage, as can be seen from names like Globin Figuerado, Shansley DeCruze, Alberto Correya etc. Some clearly show Caucasian genes, while others are indistinguishable from the local folk.

The image we have of them are hard drinking, pop singing men, and easy going women. In a community where drinking is a minor crime for men, and talking to men is a major crime for women, it is no surprise that such an image happened.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by satyam »

Ayesha takia, Diana hayden are Anglo- Indian
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Klaus »

satyam wrote:Ayesha takia, Diana hayden are Anglo- Indian
I heard that Takia has Iranian ancestry on her father's side. So she is Anglo-Persian and a 2nd generation Persian immigrant to India.

Note: As elucidated by previous posts, only by having a male European (British) ancestry can you be called Anglo-Indian, it does not apply the other way around.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Carl_T »

Half white half indian is a good mix for women. Results are often spectacular.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Avik »

Haresh : Tollyboys refers to a subset of anglicised Indian men who used to frequest the Tollygunge Club in Calcutta till the late seventies/early eighties. These guys were all Indians educated at the convent schools in Calcutta or the Darjeeling hills, had a put-on anglicised plummy accent at times and tries to be more english than the english. They were in the box-wallah trades and were usually in the senior management of companies like Andrew Yule, Braithwaite and other ex-english companies as also the leager tea gardens and managing agencies. Some of them were actually good people and contributed immensely to industry and culture. Others were well rah--rah--rah and how English was better than indian. This generation has been almost completely replaced by the Desi lot now!
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

one such recessed gene has emerged in the little daughter of a friend. they have no idea where it came from, but she does look very like a lil english girl.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Sometimes I wonder, what is so interesting about Anglo-Indians

a) their Desi side
b) their English side
c) their background as fusion of two cultures
d) their contributions

All of us (most of us) has his 'Desi' side, which is as interesting as it is, but wouldn't be more interesting for an Anglo-Indian. Their English side is just as interesting as for any other English person, and the English are indeed interesting, otherwise there wouldn't be a multi-billion industry based on English literature, tourism, royalty, history, ityadi.
I could understand that a Fusion of two cultures is perhaps interesting, but our whole society has been so fused with Western influences, that their fusion would hardly be unique.
If it has to do with their contributions as a community, just like any other community in India, well I guess, some enthusiasm would be due there.

I am sorry to sound a bit cynical here. I usually am not. But this fascination with Anglo-Indians beats me, especially 60 years after they became 'irrelevant' to the politics and society of this land. I am not trying to demean their community. All I am saying is that they are not more special than anybody else in the land.

Some 20 years ago I had a good friend from Nigeria and he used to collect stickers of British royalty, and when I think about it today, I like to go and hide my head beneath a pillow for 5 minutes.

My apologies for butting in into this discussion!
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by sunnyP »

The Trouble with Dr. Zakir Naik
Britain's decision to bar an influential Muslim cleric from entering the country underscores the failure of Indian secularism.

By SADANAND DHUME

If you're looking for a snapshot of India's hapless response to radical Islam, then look no further than Bombay-based cleric Dr. Zakir Naik. In India, the 44-year-old Dr. Naik—a medical doctor by training and a televangelist by vocation—is a widely respected figure, feted by newspapers and gushed over by television anchors. The British, however, want no part of him. On Friday, the newly elected Conservative-led government announced that it would not allow Dr. Naik to enter Britain to deliver a series of lectures. According to Home Secretary Theresa May, the televangelist has made "numerous comments" that are evidence of his "unacceptable behavior."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TTopBucket
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Avik
You mean Ba$tards like this:
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=47565

It wouldn't suprise me if his dad worked for the MEA!!!!
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Ardeshir »

sunnyP wrote:The Trouble with Dr. Zakir Naik
Britain's decision to bar an influential Muslim cleric from entering the country underscores the failure of Indian secularism.

By SADANAND DHUME

If you're looking for a snapshot of India's hapless response to radical Islam, then look no further than Bombay-based cleric Dr. Zakir Naik. In India, the 44-year-old Dr. Naik—a medical doctor by training and a televangelist by vocation—is a widely respected figure, feted by newspapers and gushed over by television anchors. The British, however, want no part of him. On Friday, the newly elected Conservative-led government announced that it would not allow Dr. Naik to enter Britain to deliver a series of lectures. According to Home Secretary Theresa May, the televangelist has made "numerous comments" that are evidence of his "unacceptable behavior."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TTopBucket
The decision to ban Zakir Naik from the UK is brilliant. No such hope of our very own government doing the same though.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RamaY »

India should give death punishment to this Zakir Naik guy on one or the other pretext. That will make him an eligible candidate for political immigration into UKstan :twisted:
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Ardeshir »

RamaY wrote:India should give death punishment to this Zakir Naik guy on one or the other pretext. That will make him an eligible candidate for political immigration into UKstan :twisted:
Or for that matter, into any of the EU nations.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

Dileep wrote:The image we have of them are hard drinking, pop singing men, and easy going women. In a community where drinking is a minor crime for men, and talking to men is a major crime for women, it is no surprise that such an image happened.
Also in the socialist republic the (once) Anglo-Indians are Latin Catholics, and they are considered different from the Roman Catholics and Syrian Catholics :shock:. It was only after noticing these that I knew that Catholics are not one monolithic group. Movies like "ചട്ടക്കാരി *" (remade into Hindi as "Julie") also gave more importance to the stereo types of Anglo-Indian women, whose moral side are weak etc. The binge drinking engine driver Morris, his wife who longs for England even though she has been born and bought up in India, the partying at the Railway Institute etc all added to the stereo types.

I had read a book "Yakada Yaka" (iron demon) long time back. It was written by Carl Muller about the Burghers (dutch-sinhalese ancestory). They used to dominate the mid-level officialdom in the bureaucracy and also in the ranks of drivers, guards etc in the Ceylon Railway (other trades like Station Master etc., were dominated by the Tamils). Their life style pretty much resembled the ones of the Anglo-Indians.

* The movie (Hindi and Malayalam) was shot at Shornur Jn. (SRR) which then used to be a major steam loco shed.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rony »

deleted
Last edited by archan on 23 Jun 2010 23:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: traitor is a label that should not be used losely. There have been other Indians who were traitors. Don't malign a community like this.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Rony,

I think you are being a bit harsh towards them.
The fact is that when one is born you have no say in who your parents are or your ancestory.
They were created by the British to serve their ends.
The few I have met have said to me that they were rejected by both India and England, so where do they belong?
You are only truly accepted as english IF you are white.
The AI are neither white or brown, but they are more brown than white.

I don't think they are traitors, they just found themselves in those circumstances and just tried to get along, survive and improve their lot.

I have met Indians from India who regard us foreign born Indians as traitors.
I didn't ask to be born out of India, my parents were forced to leave because of poverty.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Venkarl »

I vaguely remember few anglo-indian names in Indian defense forces...I think its a bad idea to generalize the entire mix..my humble opinion
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

the generalisation is downright silly, yes, there was a substantial group who thought of themselves as goras even though they were not accepted and often humiliated in their efforts. I recommend hari kunjru's 'the impressionist' for a literary and IMHO realistic take of AI society in the dying days of the raj.

but there were also many who strove for the betterment of this country as full-blooded Indians while at the same time maintaining their identity, especially after independence. it was those that couldn't integrate that left the country for english speaking countries, notably ANZ. those that stayed have integrated as much as most of us.

are you telling me that people like Admiral Dawson, and IAF's legendary keelor brothers were traitors ?? :|

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... nglos.html
http://www.thehindu.com/2005/12/02/stor ... 840200.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denzil_Keelor
and so on.

NO one who has even glanced at the IAF section of BR would make such a comment.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

I think no man or woman should be condemned just because where and how they were born. Because I do not entirely subscribe to the "karma" theory that birth is entirely determined by "sins" or punyas of past life [but I accept that it may apply when the desire to achieve some thing which is not achievable within one lifetime requires multiple lifetimes until appropriate conditions appear] I am against dubbing a community "betrayer" simply because of birth.

What should matter when modelling a community is what its overall group-think [again may be issue dependent - with different subgroups forming based on different questions] appears to dominate in inter-community interactions.

So far, from what I have seen the AI as a community show comparatively lesser amounts of arrogance and blatant pro-England attitudes, than certain categories of "pure" bred Indians.

For those wondering at the sympathies for AI among "pure" bred Indians, should note the group which feels or shows such sympathies. These are more likely to have been educated in institutions with AI teachers, and thus been in close personal contact for a large part of their formative years. There are two issues here.

First, the "sympathizers" forget that they had seen or interacted with a subgroup not necessarily representative of the entire community. AI teachers usually tended to be in the "missionary" mode and looked at teaching as not merely a profession but more of a service [don't jump up with individual cases that I agree will completely contradict this]. This in general made a huge qualitative difference in the nature of personal impressions created as compared to "pure" Indian teachers. Our teachers do not always remember that teaching is also about winning hearts and minds. I have picked up most of my teaching habits by reconstructing in my own way what I observed in AI [observing the basic principles and not necessarily the actual mode - the same I recommend for in "following" the "avatars" of Hinduism, not exactly copy what they say, but get the essence of the message and see how they can be applied in current situations] teachers.

However this does not necessarily capture the reality of the community in its entirety. Sympathizers are meeting that small subgroup who are most likely to create the most favourable impressions. I have mixed with both "missionary" teachers and the general population. The general population is not coming from that relatively higher-educated background or that "missionary" dedication. The traditional AI common jobs were in the railways, among others - with women going in for secretarial jobs. In both sectors they face stiff competition now and have been economically severely cornered. I have had to "put down" activities by AI goons during my school days and know what sort of attitudes this combination of fall from the grace of Empire days [some economic tidbits thrown but still sort of discriminated against by the race supremacists] and non-acceptance of "mixed blood"+"christianity" can generate.

Second, in spite of possible fondness for the empire connection among the "commons", and a potential vehicle for EJ's if lack of opportunities continue [the solution is complicated but essentially depends on "blurring" of identities], the AI community does not have the foundations of any ideology that can match with Jihadi Islam. They do not have institutionalized procedures to brainwash each and every new generation and are in general not very active in adding to their own population at the cost of the "majority". Their "mixed" identity makes them less adorable to the "white Brit" identity, and this creates a problem in their thorough EJ-ization. Note that Hindus who adopt EJ-ism are desperate to shed their birth-identity and will do the extra mile to prove they are anti-Hindu and transfer all their frustrations and perceived deprivations into radicalism. But AI's only claim of distinction is their half-Brit identity and they cannot radicalize against that identity.

The EJ-converts from non-Muslims of India are potentially the more damaging group compared to the AI's.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Before we express too much joy at Zakir Nayaks "ban", do consider that he has been attacked by orthodox Sunni's, and probably seen by KSA sourced Islamists as a competitor. A subtle and not so public fight is going on between the KSA Sunnis for control over IM - with the Deobandis, Barelvis, and isolated crankjobs like ZN. I would see the UK and Canada behaviour as consistent with their essential linkages/tolerance to/of KSA Sunni proselytization - probably the "greater" strategic concerns of HM's government in the Gulf.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Rony wrote: The Anglo-Indians are more Anglo then they are Indians. I dont understand why some people still have some facination towards these ******** traitors. Anglo-Indians are like pakis. They long to be accepted by the Anglos and try to be more Anglos then the real Anglos.All these "good nice Anglo Indian" BS i am hearing here came only after 1947 when the remaining Anglo Indians who remained in India resigned to their fate and started shedding their superiority complex.
Rony ji,

These people were derisively called "dings", like the striker of a temple bell which existed forlornly isolated without touching or belonging to any side. A mere accident of birth. :(

Doubtless someone who thought much like your goodself would have coined such a horrendous name.

Be that as it may, as a minority they were loyal, patriotic and truehearted. Yes, it is a universal truth that there will always be some bad eggs. Their stellar contribution and selfless dedication in the fields of education, railways, Armed Forces to name but a few is IMHO unparalleled. These traitors have won many a Vir Chakra and more. I really wish we had more such traitors.

If you wish to look for traitors I am very sure that these are not the people.

I for one, count these people among my treasured memories and friends.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RamaY »

Disclaimer: I hardly know any anglo-indians. Responding to this issue philosophically.
The few I have met have said to me that they were rejected by both India and England, so where do they belong?
It all depends on who they think they are; do they see their spiritual destiny in Bharat or in England?

If it is England then they cannot blame Bharat, and they are destined to be treated that way by England due to the very nature of that Britishness.

If they chose Bharat, they have to realize that the real problem is the minuscule-englishness remaining in their psyche. Once they shed that they will be happy Bharatiyas, same as the rest of us are.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by neeraj »

Lawyers condemn UK-India Muslim preacher ban
Lawyers representing an Indian Muslim preacher banned from entering the UK say the move was rushed and he was not given a proper chance to respond to it.

Majeed Memon, representing Mumbai-based television preacher Zakir Naik, described the move by the UK government as "barbaric and inhuman".

He has won support for his campaign against the exclusion order from Bollywood film maker Mahesh Bhatt, who praised him for "locking horns with the might of the British empire".
What pipe is Mahesh Bhatt smoking? Better to deport him to UK so he can enjoy the empire.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Many thanks for all your opinions on Anglo Indians.
Where do Goan Indians who are Catholic stand? I remember seeing various posts on other websites demanding indpendence for Goa or even re union with Portugal. How does the Goan diaspora fit in??
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

He has won support for his campaign against the exclusion order from Bollywood film maker Mahesh Bhatt, who praised him for "locking horns with the might of the British empire".
So by that logic, why does Narendra Modi not get a ovation from Mahesh Butt?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Venkarl »

Seriously....this green a$$ mofo should be the target for self proclaimed nationalistic Mumbai based dons...give some supari to these dons and have him eliminated..no govt hand...issue a warrant on that supari...and let it decay in the corridors of the court and dissolve it completely...
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

I know of a Goan Catholic girl who fights with a Kashmiri Muslim housemate over the issue of "separatism" (she strongly supports reintegration of POK back into India) - but she herself toys with the idea of applying for Portuguese citizenship. Now this alone does not mean anything nowadays - since not many are as "orthodox" about the citizenship issue like me - it could simply be economic opportunism. She also "swings" both ways in spite of being a Catholic and disputes the dogma regarding same-sex ahem ahem. Thats the complexity of any Indian subidentity!
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

How is Goan Indians related to this thread?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Tanaji,

Strictly speaking Goans are not related to this thread. However although we are discussing Anglo Indians, Goans have come into it because they are sort of european and may share some of the thoughts & feelings of AI. Also some Indians may share various views about them.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shiv »

Rony wrote: The Anglo-Indians are more Anglo then they are Indians. I dont understand why some people still have some facination towards these ******** traitors. Anglo-Indians are like pakis. They long to be accepted by the Anglos and try to be more Anglos then the real Anglos.All these "good nice Anglo Indian" BS i am hearing here came only after 1947 when the remaining Anglo Indians who remained in India resigned to their fate and started shedding their superiority complex.

How quaint! Put this in a time capsule and preserve it as a historical document. This viewpoint is getting so rare that I am surprised to find it on BR in 2010. The last time I heard it said with so much passion was in the 1960s or so.

It is important that we record for posterity and and history of India all these thoughts. Naipaul has documented, in a very nice passage about a train journey he made in South India with a sardar where both he and the sardar felt some contempt for their fellow travelers. Naipaul is not known for humor but one of his most humorous passages - describing an Andhraite eating yogurt and rice "curd rice" with pickles is a hilarious masterpiece.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

haresh, pretty similar to AI's, there's a minority who were pseudo-goras and went abroad at the first chance, those that stayed are as Indian as any. some goan catholics also participated in goa's liberation movement and were punished for it by the portugese. there have been a number of illustrious police officers, services people, sportsmen etc. one fine example is leander paes, who became double the player when he played for India rather than when he played for himself. there are national footballers like bruno coutinho and so on.
the air operation of operation vijay, i.e the goan liberation war, was led by Air Vice Marshal Pinto, himself a goan catholic ! ;) even some cursory wiki and google search would give you interesting snippets.

I hope that answers your question because I can't let this OT continue for much longer. :)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shiv »

Rahul M wrote:I can't let this OT continue for much longer. :)
Indeed. How long can you allow a discussion on the stupidity SC's on here? The rants about Anglos are in the same genre.
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INDO PHILES

Post by Haresh »

I have just come across this website by the British author Piers Moore Ede who is an absolute lover of all things Indian.

http://theindiaphile.com/

He has written a book about his travels in India

http://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Kinds-Magic ... 0747584826

and he also has a Facebook page
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pag ... 1997654936

I am proud to say I am helping him promote his website and if any of you guys can help him with a book he is researching on Varanasi then it would be appreciated. :)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rony »

shyamd
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyamd »

brihaspati wrote:Before we express too much joy at Zakir Nayaks "ban", do consider that he has been attacked by orthodox Sunni's, and probably seen by KSA sourced Islamists as a competitor. A subtle and not so public fight is going on between the KSA Sunnis for control over IM - with the Deobandis, Barelvis, and isolated crankjobs like ZN. I would see the UK and Canada behaviour as consistent with their essential linkages/tolerance to/of KSA Sunni proselytization - probably the "greater" strategic concerns of HM's government in the Gulf.
ZN is KSA funded.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

He could have been in the early stages. He has recently however increasingly been attacked by Sunnis. Not really consistent with continued KSA support.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyamd »

^^ I don't think that matters too much for them - its his reach with Piss TV. IRF is not just ZN, its many other scholars too.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

ZN's funding will be an interesting thing to explore. However in case of UK, his ban was primarily because of opposition from a section of the Sunnis. Sunni organizations have been targeting him officially from 2008. This probably covers a much deeper Barelvi-Sunni fight in UP and Maha, and Bihar. But if ZN has indeed been "confusing" things with the Barelwis, then it is obvious to see that KSA will cease to support him. ZN was useful as long as he concentrated on denigrating other religions. However its his supposed "deviation" from orthodox Sunni lines about Islam itself - that has raised the flak. The consistent opposition to his position on "Islam" from Sunnis means that he no longer enjoys KSA patronage. This is of course a recent phenomenon - about two years.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jun/ ... n-july.htm
Britain's new Prime Minister David Cameron [ Images ], who heads the Conservative-Liberal Democrats coalition government, would visit India [ Images ] in July, official sources said on Sunday.Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [ Images ] met Cameron for the first time on the sidelines of G-20 Summit in Toronto on Sunday after the latter took over as British premier last month.
Singh congratulated Cameron on his victory and extended an invitation to him to visit India, which he accepted and would be coming in July, officials said. Cameron had visited India in 2006 as a leader of opposition.Like the previous Labour Government, the new coalition government is also keen to build a special relationship with India.Prime Minister Singh [ Images ] told Cameron that he was looking forward to his visit to India.India and Britain had raised their bilateral relationship to a strategic partnership level in 2006 and both the leaders agreed that there was huge potential to expand relationship in trade and human resource development. Trade between the two countries is estimated at $13 billion and UK is the fourth largest single investor in India. India also has considerable investment in Britain.The British prime minister said that he would welcome more Indian students to come to Britain for studies. The two leaders shared the views on the G20 Summit.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Haresh »

India may allow British universities to open colleges in the country

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/worl ... 576672.ece


Kabaddi seeks to move into international arena

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... arena.html
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