Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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akashganga
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by akashganga »

A_Gupta wrote:Any Abrahamics in a majority pose a threat:
e.g., http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/lurking-c ... tions.html
(2012)
A recent report in the Haaretz newspaper, on an Israeli Jew who grows Christmas trees commercially, noted in passing: “hotels – under threat of losing kashrut certificates – are prohibited by the rabbinate from decking their halls in boughs of holly or, heaven forbid, putting up even the smallest of small sparkly Christmas tree in the corner of the lobby.”

In other words, the rabbinate has been quietly terrorising Israeli hotel owners into ignoring Christmas by threatening to use its powers to put them out of business. Denying a hotel its kashrut (kosher) certificate would lose it most of its Israeli and foreign Jewish clientele.
Jews are under attach physically by arab muslims which is well known. What is not discussed in public is that jews are under attack by (fundamantalist) christians by trying to christianize them culturally. We have to applaud jews for maintaining their non-christian and non-islamic identity in the midst of the two most intolerant faiths created by man and in their place of origin. We hindus have to learn lessons from jews. Last year I stayed for one night in a hotel in bangalore and was shocked to see a copy of bible in the room. Bangalore is not in US or europe and still christians managed to place bible copies in hotel rooms of majority hindu places.
JwalaMukhi
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JwalaMukhi »

That's because many of them confuse that proselytization is as fundamental right, as right to life. Restriction of proselytization is seen as being biased and being discriminatory. Such is the hold of these ideas that any restriction to proselytization immediately brings out responses like "islam khatre mein hain", "bigorty in full display", "____(fill in the blanks as convenient) fundamentalism" "encroachment on civilized existence" yada yada.

How can one resist the fundamental right "to bring civilization to the uncivilized"?

Added later: BTW did one notice that Israelis are "terrorizing to ignore christmas", while the bible is planted in Bangalore hotels laced with cake, wine, honey and flowers!(only missing ingredient among that from the list of wine, song, dance is probably wimmen to go with it.)
devesh
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by devesh »

A_Gupta wrote:Any Abrahamics in a majority pose a threat:
e.g., http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/lurking-c ... tions.html
(2012)
A recent report in the Haaretz newspaper, on an Israeli Jew who grows Christmas trees commercially, noted in passing: “hotels – under threat of losing kashrut certificates – are prohibited by the rabbinate from decking their halls in boughs of holly or, heaven forbid, putting up even the smallest of small sparkly Christmas tree in the corner of the lobby.”

In other words, the rabbinate has been quietly terrorising Israeli hotel owners into ignoring Christmas by threatening to use its powers to put them out of business. Denying a hotel its kashrut (kosher) certificate would lose it most of its Israeli and foreign Jewish clientele.

well, the Jews are taking steps to ensure Christian proselytizing doesn't destroy them.

please keep in mind that the EJ's have not given up their vision of "bringing the Jews into fold" agenda.

Israel will take the help it needs from EJ's in USA to score against the Islamic neighbors. but ultimately, they will always remember that EJ's cannot be allowed a voice in their internal society. that will destroy them from within.

so yes, Israelis are keeping vigil against EJ's too. I can think of at least one other major society/country in the world which does this: Japan. historically, they've taken steps to keep Christian imperialism at bay, and they've continued to defend against this threat even after loosing to USA in WWII.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

devesh wrote: well, the Jews are taking steps to ensure Christian proselytizing doesn't destroy them.

please keep in mind that the EJ's have not given up their vision of "bringing the Jews into fold" agenda.
Devesh-ji,
As you correctly pointed out, the EJs have not given up the hope of bringing the Jews into the fold. Here is an article about how they are trying to appropriate Jewish symbols.

http://www.skepticink.com/incongruentel ... preciated/

Christian missionaries often appear on the doorstep of the families of soldiers who have died - especially if the soldier is the only breadwinner - offering cash and goodies, if the family will convert to Christianity. Have seen this firsthand in Israel. Here is another article by a religious Jew detailing Christian missionary activity, trying to obtain converts among Jews.

http://foundationstone.com.au/Foundatio ... Cults.html

So-all this mixing Judaism with the other two Abrahamic faiths is not exactly kosher.
akashganga
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by akashganga »

nageshks wrote:
devesh wrote: well, the Jews are taking steps to ensure Christian proselytizing doesn't destroy them.

please keep in mind that the EJ's have not given up their vision of "bringing the Jews into fold" agenda.
Devesh-ji,
As you correctly pointed out, the EJs have not given up the hope of bringing the Jews into the fold. Here is an article about how they are trying to appropriate Jewish symbols.

http://www.skepticink.com/incongruentel ... preciated/

Christian missionaries often appear on the doorstep of the families of soldiers who have died - especially if the soldier is the only breadwinner - offering cash and goodies, if the family will convert to Christianity. Have seen this firsthand in Israel. Here is another article by a religious Jew detailing Christian missionary activity, trying to obtain converts among Jews.

http://foundationstone.com.au/Foundatio ... Cults.html

So-all this mixing Judaism with the other two Abrahamic faiths is not exactly kosher.
Both the abrahamic faiths are civilization killers. Examples of islam killing civilisation are persia, af/pak which were part of india, indonesia, etc. For Christians wiping out civilsations you can see native americans in both north and south america who lost everthing their lands, their religion, their language, their people got wiped out in millions, etc. Both Islam and (fundamentalist) christianity consider judsaism as daal mein kala right in their cradle. We should do whatever we can to assist jews in retaining their non-islamic/non-christian identity. Both these faiths pose threat to not only bharatiya dharmic culture, but also other native cultures of asia such as tibet, chinese, japanese, korean, thai, etc.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

JwalaMukhi wrote:That's because many of them confuse that proselytization is as fundamental right, as right to life. Restriction of proselytization is seen as being biased and being discriminatory. Such is the hold of these ideas that any restriction to proselytization immediately brings out responses like "islam khatre mein hain", "bigorty in full display", "____(fill in the blanks as convenient) fundamentalism" "encroachment on civilized existence" yada yada.

How can one resist the fundamental right "to bring civilization to the uncivilized"?

Added later: BTW did one notice that Israelis are "terrorizing to ignore christmas", while the bible is planted in Bangalore hotels laced with cake, wine, honey and flowers!(only missing ingredient among that from the list of wine, song, dance is probably wimmen to go with it.)
well, fundamental rights are subject to identity. Restriction of proselytization is discriminatory only if they are restricted, its a positive thing if others are restricted from proselytizing on them - in that case it becomes religious fundamentalism, and aggression. Right to life is also same - so the church had the right to take life of heretics. Or urge war on unbelievers.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

A point of view: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/nathan-thr ... ss-chances

Begins thusly:
The current war in Gaza was not one Israel or Hamas sought. But both had no doubt that a new confrontation would come. The 21 November 2012 ceasefire that ended an eight-day-long exchange of Gazan rocket fire and Israeli aerial bombardment was never implemented. It stipulated that all Palestinian factions in Gaza would stop hostilities against Israel, that Israel would end attacks against Gaza by land, sea and air – including the ‘targeting of individuals’ (assassinations, typically by drone-fired missile) – and that the closure of Gaza would essentially end as a result of Israel’s ‘opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods, and refraining from restricting residents’ free movements and targeting residents in border areas’. An additional clause noted that ‘other matters as may be requested shall be addressed,’ a reference to private commitments by Egypt and the US to help thwart weapons smuggling into Gaza, though Hamas has denied this interpretation of the clause.

During the three months that followed the ceasefire, Shin Bet recorded only a single attack: two mortar shells fired from Gaza in December 2012. Israeli officials were impressed. But they convinced themselves that the quiet on Gaza’s border was primarily the result of Israeli deterrence and Palestinian self-interest. Israel therefore saw little incentive in upholding its end of the deal. In the three months following the ceasefire, its forces made regular incursions into Gaza, strafed Palestinian farmers and those collecting scrap and rubble across the border, and fired at boats, preventing fishermen from accessing the majority of Gaza’s waters.

The end of the closure never came. Crossings were repeatedly shut. So-called buffer zones – agricultural lands that Gazan farmers couldn’t enter without being fired on – were reinstated. Imports declined, exports were blocked, and fewer Gazans were given exit permits to Israel and the West Bank.

Israel had committed to holding indirect negotiations with Hamas over the implementation of the ceasefire but repeatedly delayed them, at first because it wanted to see whether Hamas would stick to its side of the deal, then because Netanyahu couldn’t afford to make further concessions to Hamas in the weeks leading up to the January 2013 elections, and then because a new Israeli coalition was being formed and needed time to settle in. The talks never took place. The lesson for Hamas was clear. Even if an agreement was brokered by the US and Egypt, Israel could still fail to honour it.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Prem »

Right Use of Biryani
Reena Pushkarna, who runs a chain of tandoori restaurants in Israel, set up a make-shift kitchen and rustled up 400 kg of biryani near the Gaza border where Israel and Hamas have been fighting for almost a month.Pushkarna, who made Tel Aviv her home 30 years ago, and her crew of four chefs served the biryani to more than 2,000 Israeli soldiers, including Indian-origin Jews.“My team and I had to dive into trenches twice to keep from getting killed last Thursday. But the initiative surely brought smiles to the faces of our soldiers,” Pushkarna told HT from Tel Aviv.Israel said on Tuesday it had withdrawn its troops from Gaza for a 72-hour truce, but it is uncertain if the latest ceasefire will hold or collapse like past attempts to suspend hostilities.Pushkarna, a retired colonel’s daughter, said she would love to cook for children in Gaza, who are caught in the crossfire.“Lives have been shattered in this war. The tragedy on both sides breaks my heart,” she said of the conflict that has left close to 2,000 people dead, most of them Palestinians.She is the convener of the Israel chapter of the Overseas Friends of BJP and flew down for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s swearing-in ceremony in May.Her restaurant in Tel Aviv, called Tandoori, was the setting for Norway-mediated talks between the Israelis and Palestinians that led to a historic peace accord in 1993.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

brihaspati wrote:very nice spin, it is "strongly worded against Israel" but mewls about calling for an end to violence against Israeli civilians. Even by the language of the resolution, you think two sides are being equally lambasted?
What "spin" are you talking about ??? I gave my view regarding the resolution that's it. If you keep thinking that other than you everybody else is busy scheming and busy giving spin/swing then I must say we are wasting each other's time.

Given the nations who had drafted the resolution we can both see why it is so heavily one sided and that's also what you get by bombarding civilians. Just to be clear I don't care about dead civilians on any side but won't accept unnecessary criticism of Indian actions.
brihaspati wrote:India is being singled out, because we are Indians, and we primarily are concerned in this forum with India. But more than that what you are trying to deflect is the issue that "everyone supporting the Palestinian jihad" including Russia/China, through voting for the resolution, is worthy of ire - but China/Russia's record of bashing jihadis/power projection/territorial-gains all work out in the only language jihadis understand - as a sign and position of strength.

So their vote in favour is not seen as a sign of weakness for them, and therefore not a signal to be encouraging for the jihadis. India's yes vote on the other hand is seen as a sign of weakness, and GOI's inability to displease its own Islamic, and fear of antagonizing the Gulf ummah.

You are repeatedly avoiding this context.
Yes we are concerned primarily with India here but it doesn't mean that we go over board with our criticism and start projecting our pet fears here. Your leeway to China/Russia is laughable since a nation in position of strength will never bend backwards to please anyone but keep doing the thing as it deems right. Even after all the machismo shown by Russia/China as told by you they are very willing to compromise on a platform from where they could have given a strong anti jihad message. Hence they have equally faltered as India and so your ire should also be directed towards these "world powers" as well for supporting jihad which you claim this resolution was. But instead of doing that you turn as their apologists based on some past gains which strangely according to you gives them a right to support jihad as a show of "magnanimity". By voting for this resolution the same conclusions you draw for GoI is very much valid for rest of the non ummah nations who voted for the resolution.

Regarding bashing of jihadi's then IA/intel/security forces have been doing that for decades now. The weakness shown in the last decade cannot be blamed on the current setup. To top that you haven't given proof of any internal action(s) taken by present GoI which shows that they are willing to please the Islamists at home.
brihaspati wrote:Criticizing for not voting against, given the "signs of weakness" in immediate past records, is not about showing India in poor light. Its about doing the best given the past record which cannot be changed or compensated for immediately. That next-to-best action would have been at the least an abstinence in consistence with Sushma Swaraj's line of "friends on both sides", and the best would have been voting against. That would have equally shown that India is no longer hostage to its own internal or external Islamic population, and that it may pursue more aggressive and non-appeasement policies towards India's enemies - especially of the Ummah, and ummah supporting types in the hood -like China.
Why downhill skii now, stick with your best option why are you ready to compromise for "next-to-best" action ??? The "next-to-best" action is also a sign of weakness because a strong nation will only take the best action and not "next-to-best" as was displayed by USA. If you compromise now then you are only proving that Russia and China are equally weak as India has been on this particular case (according to you).

A government can take strong actions only from a position of strength and not from a weak or crawling position. I don't see GoI being in a strong position, the corrupt setup that has been set over decades isn't going to be washed away just like that only because the Indian public finally found their balls to go ahead and give a decisive judgement to a nationalist government. The setup already in place is going to fight back, to dismantle it is going to take time, patience and perseverance from GoI as well as Indian society to make that happen. Sitting at home day dreaming about a strong Indian response in not going to happen without actually doing proper ground work. We as a nation are still in the ground work stage, when we have done enough to have global heft then we can talk about being aggressive.
brihaspati wrote:Bring in China as role-model, after you can whack the Kashmiri jihad like PLA did in Sinkiang, regularly execute/eliminate jihadis as again done in Sinkiang, and much much more than IA is allowed do, whack public demos as in Sinkiang - and after occupying without much murmur of protest territories of neighbours.
Oh please "role-model" !!!! China is a LoL model. Even after your all touted machismo against jihad they still beg to Pakistan for assistance and neither they have proper control over Xinjiang region.

Yeah, occupying territories !!!! LoL model at play again. It has no friends in it's neighbour (unless offcourse you consider pottystan as a neighbour of any value), I don't think anybody sane enough will call that as a good foreign policy.
brihaspati wrote:Not much action was being required here, except abstaining or voting against in an air-conditioned chamber of cackling diplomats. But it would have sent a signal of a change in intent and response mindset.
By needling west through this vote enough signals have been sent regarding intent and response mindset.
brihaspati wrote:You are touting this as a strong intent to deal with jihadis in a way China does? It is merely about doing what is required naturally as making the international border worth its name. It should be happening with all borders/border areas, and has nothing in particular to do with jihadis.
I am touting nothing but merely giving data points to show the intent of the present GoI. Seeing the actions of GoI through Chinese lens is your choice not mine, I don't see things like that. If this is "merely about doing what is required" then why didn't the previous GoI take this puny little step as you make it out to be ???

I also see why you are trying to brush this under the carpet since it weakens your allegation against the current GoI when it has been reported and talked about here many a times regarding the security alerts given by intel agencies for the same. If you don't remember then the infiltration was/is happening from a particular community which has been a trouble creator world wide. If this has "nothing in particular to do with jihadis" then what/who was responsible for the Assam riots ???
brihaspati wrote:The question was about your trying to justify India's action by citing "look X,Y,Z also did so". Have you yourself read it fully?
Are you even reading properly before replying or just going with it ??? I cannot make head or tail of your reply and the part you quoted to reply. How does it even fit other than being a hopeless attempt to somehow make this a "you must justify your stance to me while I create straw man arguments" ploy.

Even after so much of too and fro if you are still desperate to make it such then we must end this right now. I accept defeat, you win.
brihaspati wrote:out of that whole litany of alleged "crimes" in the resolution, by Israel as a state, IDF, and Israeli settlers - there is just one oh-so-significant condemnation of "killing of 2" Israeli civilians by "rockets". NO mention of Hamas violence, no mention of rockets, no mention of tunnels - and you still can't see why the resolution is in favour of Palestinian jihad? or you dont want to see it?
When it's 2 vs. 650 (at the time of resolution), that's what you will get and I have already said look at the countries which drafted the resolution and it's doesn't take a genius to figure out why is it so. I would have believed your position if the resolution was anywhere hinting or dealing with legitimizing jihad in any of it's part which I had asked you to point out to me lest I failed to see but since their is none hence all the usual games now being played to force down your point given the absence of facts. I am not interested in these games if you intend to continue the same things then as I said before you win I lose.
brihaspati wrote:The resolution also clearly "welcomes" the "national consensus gov" on 2nd july: pray what are the constituents of that "consensus" gov, and what are their respective charters, current and ongoing jihadi statements of intent?
Israeli's can bomb this national goberment as much as it likes I don't see that affecting India so nothing much to care for here.
brihaspati wrote:So India voted "for" just to pique/oppose USA?
You gave three choices I picked up one, so ???
brihaspati wrote:No, you havent. If India's action was independent of the others voting for, then your demand to criticize India only after criticizing all others - is a contradiction. If Indias actions were really taken independent of foreign other countries, then, it can be criticized independently of others.
You again comprehend wrong I said right from the very first exchange criticise other's as well since it was played at an international stage no need to single out India and predict doomsday.
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Sagar G wrote: What "spin" are you talking about ??? I gave my view regarding the resolution that's it. If you keep thinking that other than you everybody else is busy scheming and busy giving spin/swing then I must say we are wasting each other's time.

Given the nations who had drafted the resolution we can both see why it is so heavily one sided and that's also what you get by bombarding civilians. Just to be clear I don't care about dead civilians on any side but won't accept unnecessary criticism of Indian actions.
It not only heavily worded against one side, it deliberately chooses to ignore the jihadi violent aspect of both members of unity gov, and fails to even mention the issues/features that are comparable on both sides. No it only bashes Israel, silent on Palestinian jihad. It supports Palestinian jihad - by contrast.

Yes we are concerned primarily with India here but it doesn't mean that we go over board with our criticism and start projecting our pet fears here. Your leeway to China/Russia is laughable since a nation in position of strength will never bend backwards to please anyone but keep doing the thing as it deems right. Even after all the machismo shown by Russia/China as told by you they are very willing to compromise on a platform from where they could have given a strong anti jihad message. Hence they have equally faltered as India and so your ire should also be directed towards these "world powers" as well for supporting jihad which you claim this resolution was. But instead of doing that you turn as their apologists based on some past gains which strangely according to you gives them a right to support jihad as a show of "magnanimity". By voting for this resolution the same conclusions you draw for GoI is very much valid for rest of the non ummah nations who voted for the resolution.

Regarding bashing of jihadi's then IA/intel/security forces have been doing that for decades now. The weakness shown in the last decade cannot be blamed on the current setup. To top that you haven't given proof of any internal action(s) taken by present GoI which shows that they are willing to please the Islamists at home.
Again a very strange attempt at covering for the act itself. Somehow it is a criticizable action - but not individual nations, especially for India. Why is an act bashable only in the group but individual participants in that decision in that group not responsible for that bashable decision! There is no apology. You are deliberately turning it into something that was never said. I did not say just because they bashed jihadis - that their voting was right. I said they could afford to as from jihadi viewpoint this for-vote will not be taken as sign of weakness in Russia/China, and not encourage jihadis.

Why downhill skii now, stick with your best option why are you ready to compromise for "next-to-best" action ??? The "next-to-best" action is also a sign of weakness because a strong nation will only take the best action and not "next-to-best" as was displayed by USA. If you compromise now then you are only proving that Russia and China are equally weak as India has been on this particular case (according to you).

A government can take strong actions only from a position of strength and not from a weak or crawling position. I don't see GoI being in a strong position, the corrupt setup that has been set over decades isn't going to be washed away just like that only because the Indian public finally found their balls to go ahead and give a decisive judgement to a nationalist government. The setup already in place is going to fight back, to dismantle it is going to take time, patience and perseverance from GoI as well as Indian society to make that happen. Sitting at home day dreaming about a strong Indian response in not going to happen without actually doing proper ground work. We as a nation are still in the ground work stage, when we have done enough to have global heft then we can talk about being aggressive.
You want to imagine others downhill skiing to enjoy? there is no downhill skiing. There are often cases to have a preferential ordering of options based on multiple criteria that conflict. Only from that point I am clearly saying, that would be a next best option, which is perfectly valid.

Somehow you appear to agree that GOI did this from awareness of weaknesses. We cannot talk of being "aggressive" which in context meant apparently "voting against resolution" as we are yet "weak". Is that how see it? when u do things from weakness its called appeasement. With jihadis connected to the Palestine movement, appeasement only encourages them.

Oh please "role-model" !!!! China is a LoL model. Even after your all touted machismo against jihad they still beg to Pakistan for assistance and neither they have proper control over Xinjiang region.

Yeah, occupying territories !!!! LoL model at play again. It has no friends in it's neighbour (unless offcourse you consider pottystan as a neighbour of any value), I don't think anybody sane enough will call that as a good foreign policy.
"assistance" from Pak- of course, at what scale and for what?
And u are claiming India is surrounded by friendly neighbours by not emulating big-bad-friendless China? As for control, they still seem to regularly get Uighur "separatists" to be hanged. They still determine who leads prayers unlike Kashmir valley with its geelanis ityadi.
By needling west through this vote enough signals have been sent regarding intent and response mindset.
By repeating Congress position, what is the intent/needling/mindset signal sent? West would simply turn the screw tighter on Kashmir issue, and more so on India than Pak. If you had care dtos tudy western response to such counterthreats, they bash it even more without giving in. Expect more active support to Kashmii separatists from the back as a result of this vote.

I am touting nothing but merely giving data points to show the intent of the present GoI. Seeing the actions of GoI through Chinese lens is your choice not mine, I don't see things like that. If this is "merely about doing what is required" then why didn't the previous GoI take this puny little step as you make it out to be ???

I also see why you are trying to brush this under the carpet since it weakens your allegation against the current GoI when it has been reported and talked about here many a times regarding the security alerts given by intel agencies for the same. If you don't remember then the infiltration was/is happening from a particular community which has been a trouble creator world wide. If this has "nothing in particular to do with jihadis" then what/who was responsible for the Assam riots ???
Didnt use "puny" its your adjective. I said it is routine work for any border. Its not only jihadis who use that border, far bigger flows go on. Jihadi specific institutionalization/steps would look at destroying the cross border madrassah-dawa networks, and its not a "border" problem only.

When it's 2 vs. 650 (at the time of resolution), that's what you will get and I have already said look at the countries which drafted the resolution and it's doesn't take a genius to figure out why is it so. I would have believed your position if the resolution was anywhere hinting or dealing with legitimizing jihad in any of it's part which I had asked you to point out to me lest I failed to see but since their is none hence all the usual games now being played to force down your point given the absence of facts. I am not interested in these games if you intend to continue the same things then as I said before you win I lose.
2 vs 65 doesnt vanish the tunnels or the murderous intent of Hamas, often publicly given on Palestinian media to wipe off Israel.

Israeli's can bomb this national goberment as much as it likes I don't see that affecting India so nothing much to care for here.
Ignoring the charter is important for you, for it spells out that no amount of appeasement will stop the ultimate target of jihad. Helping Palestinian separatism in any possible way is ironically building up the material that will be used against India.

You again comprehend wrong I said right from the very first exchange criticise other's as well since it was played at an international stage no need to single out India and predict doomsday.
Argument similar to - you didnt criticize all the rapes that were happening in the city at the same time, so you cannot critcize a single one.
Rony
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rony »

This is from April but did not see this posted in this forum. Hope the pandus gave a good thrashing to these 'diplomats' and they are thrown out of India

Israeli diplomats beat immigration officer at IGI
Rony
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rony »

'India's Kashmir experience can be a model for Israel in Gaza'
Amid the deadly Israeli-Hamas conflict, a Kashmiri woman who is married to a Palestinian here feels Israel can learn from India's experience in Kashmir while dealing with the volatile situation in Gaza.

"It used to be quite terrible in Kashmir but things started to take a positive turn when the Indian government started to invest in education and found ways to send youngsters to learn outside the state," says Lubna, a bio-chemist who works for the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) in Gaza in its Department of National Defence.

"Their energies got channelised into constructive things. It helped ease the situation and also get control over the spiralling violence. Things would have been very different if India would have resorted to violent means to take control of the disturbed territory," she said.

Lubna says that Israel could learn quite a lot from the Indian handling of the situation in Kashmir and make good use of it in Gaza.

"There is almost no work but the PNA has retained all its staff even after its ouster from Gaza," she said.

"I went to Aligarh Muslim University and my brother went to Manipal (University). We learnt and moved on in life. There are so many other youngsters my age who benefited from the Indian government's thinking and came out of the cycle of violence," Lubna noted.

"Israel tried to suffocate us by imposing closure with the support of the West. Left with no choice the militant factions started building tunnels which kept life going here in Gaza. Even the shoes I wear came through tunnels," she said.

"If youngsters were allowed to go out and learn. If they could find other opportunities, they would probably not have chosen what they have. Who doesn't want to live a good life at peace. People in Gaza were choked to make the choices that they have made," Lubna asserted.

"It's my first visit to Gaza. My daughter has been living here for 17 years after marrying a Palestinian who studied with her in India. I had not seen my three grandchildren for the last six years. I was obviously thrilled at the prospect of spending our first Eid together in Gaza", said Lubna's 67-year-old mother Fatima, who is visiting her here.

Fatima is planning to go back to India on September 11 but still doesn't know if and how she would be able to do so.

"We hear that Egypt would be opening the Rafah crossing as part of the ceasefire deal. When my mother came the Representative Office of India in Ramallah was extremely helpful in coordinating her entry. I hope she has a safe exit," Lubna said.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by anupmisra »

Rony wrote:This is from April but did not see this posted in this forum. Hope the pandus gave a good thrashing to these 'diplomats' and they are thrown out of India Israeli diplomats beat immigration officer at IGI
Don't diplomats have a separate counter at IGI that takes them through immigration and other security checks?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Karan Dixit »

Rony wrote:This is from April but did not see this posted in this forum. Hope the pandus gave a good thrashing to these 'diplomats' and they are thrown out of India

Israeli diplomats beat immigration officer at IGI
The story says that Israelis could not be arrested because they had diplomatic immunity. That is a nonsense. If Indian diplomats had done the same thing in Israel, Israelis would not have honored the diplomatic immunity. IGI police should have locked these piece of shits Israelis for at least a week. This kind of nonsense has to stop in dealing with foreign countries.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Atri »

An old but interesting article.

The Indian Jews
Jakob De Roover wrote:Social science debate in India has been hijacked by the struggle between secularism and Hindutva for decades now. Usually the Sangh Parivar is blamed for this turn of events. However, it could well be argued that the Hindutva ideologues simply adopted the stance of the secularists. Perhaps the best illustration is the case of anti-Brahminism.

To be against "Brahminism" is part and parcel of the political correctness of progressive scholars in twenty-first-century India, much like being against Muslims is part of the message of their Hindutva colleagues. This indicates that something is very wrong with the Indian academic debate. Promotion of animosity towards a religious tradition or its followers is not acceptable today, but it becomes truly perverse when the intelligentsia endorses it.

In Europe, it took horrendous events to put an end to the propaganda of anti-Semitism, which had penetrated the media and intelligentsia. It required decades of incessant campaigning before anti-Semitism was relegated to the realm of intellectual and political bankruptcy. In India, anti-Brahminism is still the proud slogan of many political parties and the credential of the radical intellectual.

Some may find this parallel between anti-Brahminism and anti-Semitism ill-advised. Nevertheless, it has strong grounds.

First, there are striking similarities between the stereotypes about Brahmins in India and those about Jews in the West. Jews have been described as devious connivers, who would do anything for personal gain. They were said to be secretive and untrustworthy, manipulating politics and the economy. In India, Brahmins are all too often characterised in the same way.

Second, the stereotypes about the Jews were part of a larger story about a historical conspiracy in which they had supposedly exploited European societies. To this day, the stories about a Jewish conspiracy against humanity prevail. The anti-Brahminical stories sound much the same, but have the Brahmins plotting against the oppressed classes in Indian society.

In both cases, historians have claimed to produce "evidence" that cannot be considered so by any standard. Typical of the ideologues of anti-Brahminism is the addition of ad hoc ploys whenever their stories are challenged by facts. When it is pointed out that the Brahmins have not been all that powerful in most parts of the country, or that they were poor in many regions, one reverts to the image of the Brahmin manipulating kings and politicians behind the scene. We cannot find empirical evidence, it is said, because of the secretive way in which Brahminism works.

Third, both in anti-Semitic Europe and anti-Brahminical India, this goes together with the interpretation of contemporary events in terms of these stories. One does not really analyse social tragedies and injustices, but approaches them as confirmations of the ideological stories. All that goes wrong in society is blamed on the minority in question. Violence against Muslims? It must be the "Brahmins" of the Sangh Parivar. Opposition against Christian missionaries and the approval of anti-conversion laws? "Ah, the Brahmins fear that Christianity will empower the lower castes." Members of a scheduled caste are killed? "The Brahmin wants to show the Dalit his true place in the caste hierarchy." An OBC member loses his job; a lower caste girl is raped? "The upper castes must be behind it." So the story goes.

This leads to a fourth parallel: in both cases, resentment against the minority in question is systematically created and reinforced among the majority. The Jews were accused of sucking all riches out of European societies. In the decades before the second World War, more and more people began to believe that it was time "to take back what was rightfully theirs." In India also, movements have come into being that want to set right "the historical injustices of Brahminical oppression." Some have even begun to call upon their followers to "exterminate the Brahmins."

In Europe, state policies were implemented that expressed the discrimination against Jews. For a very long time, they could not hold certain jobs and participate in many social and economic activities. In India, one seems to be going this way with policies that claim to correct "the historical exploitation by the upper castes." It is becoming increasingly difficult for Brahmins to get access to certain jobs. In both cases, these policies have been justified in terms of a flawed ideological story that passes for social science.

The fifth parallel is that both anti-Semitism and anti-Brahminism have deep roots in Christian theology. In the case of Judaism, its continuing vitality as a tradition was a threat to Christianity's claim to be the fulfilment of the Jewish prophecies about the Messiah. The refusal of Jews to join the religion of Christ (the true Messiah, according to Christians) was seen as an unacceptable denial of the truth of Christianity. Saint Augustine even wrote that the Jews had to continue to exist, but only to show that Christians had not fabricated the prophesies about Christ and to confirm that some would not follow Christ and be damned for it.

The contemporary stereotypes about Brahmins and the story about Brahminism also originate in Christian theology. They reproduce Protestant images of the priests of false religion. When European missionaries and merchants began to travel to India in great numbers, they held two certainties that came from Christian theology: false religion would exist in India; and false religion revolved around evil priests who had fabricated all kinds of laws, doctrines and rites in order to bully the innocent believers into submission. In this way, the priests of the devil abused religion for worldly goals. The European story about Brahminism and the caste system simply reproduced this Protestant image of false religion. The colonials identified the Brahmins as the priests and Brahminism as the foundation of false religion in India. This is how the dominant image of "the Hindu religion" came into being.

The sixth parallel lies in the fact that Christian theology penetrated and shaped the "secular" discourse about Judaism and Brahminism. The theological criticism became part of common sense and was reproduced as scientific truth. In India, this continues unto this day. Social scientists still talk about "Brahminism" as the worst thing that ever happened to humanity.

Perhaps the most tragic similarity is that some members of the minority community have internalised these stories about themselves. Some Jews began to believe that they were to blame for what happened during the Holocaust; many educated Brahmins now feel that they are guilty of historical atrocities against other groups. In some cases, this has led to a kind of identity crisis in which they vilify "Brahminism" in English-language academic debate, but continue their traditions. In other cases, the desire to "defend" these same traditions has inspired Brahmins to aggressively support Hindutva.

In twentieth-century Europe, we have seen how dangerous anti-Semitism was and what consequences it could have in society. Tragically, unimaginable suffering was needed before it was relegated to the realm of unacceptable positions. In India, anti-Brahminism was adopted from Protestant missionaries by colonial scholars who then passed it on to the secularists and Dalit intellectuals. They created the climate which allowed the Sangh Parivar to continue hijacking the social sciences for petty political purposes.

The question that India has to raise in the twenty-first century is this: Do we need bloodshed, before we will realise that the reproduction of anti-Brahminism is as harmful as anti-Muslim propaganda? What is needed to realise that the Hindutva movement has simply taken its cue from the secularists? Do we need a new victory of fascism, before we will admit that pernicious ideologies should not be sold as social science?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

brihaspati wrote:It not only heavily worded against one side, it deliberately chooses to ignore the jihadi violent aspect of both members of unity gov, and fails to even mention the issues/features that are comparable on both sides. No it only bashes Israel, silent on Palestinian jihad. It supports Palestinian jihad - by contrast.
I have already given reasons as to why the resolution is heavily one sided. You can infer whatever you want to from the resolution but the fact is that the resolution doesn't have anything like what you suggest even after being heavily loaded against Israel. Pains of international diplomacy, there is only much that ummah nations can do at UNHRC and this resolution is their limit. The resolution hasn't stopped Israel to do what it thinks it right (I had said this before as well). The resolution also contains
4. Calls for an immediate cessation of Israeli military assaults throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and an end to attacks against all civilians, including Israeli civilians;
Even ummah controlled media recognises the futility of this exercise

Why Modi’s India aligns more closely with Israel than with Palestinians
brihaspati wrote:Again a very strange attempt at covering for the act itself. Somehow it is a criticizable action - but not individual nations, especially for India. Why is an act bashable only in the group but individual participants in that decision in that group not responsible for that bashable decision! There is no apology. You are deliberately turning it into something that was never said. I did not say just because they bashed jihadis - that their voting was right. I said they could afford to as from jihadi viewpoint this for-vote will not be taken as sign of weakness in Russia/China, and not encourage jihadis.


The "criticizable action" is your stance not mine I don't even care for this vote since I know that it means nothing on the ground and you can see for yourself how much this has affected Israel till now i.e. NIL.

When you point out an individual to blame for an action which was taken by a group to which the individual was part of then it only shows your bias towards that individual. So why are you biased towards India while you try and justify/brush under the carpet the actions of other nations in the group ???

Even after "affording to" go ahead and vote for the resolution both the countries still face the threat of jihad. China continues to see jihadi violence in Xinxiang region and Russia got bombed before Sochi Olympics. We can see that jihadis are already encouraged enough to do violence so why are you linking this resolution with encouragement/dis encouragement of jihad when the reality speaks otherwise ??? Jihadis are already encouraged by their religious beliefs so are you saying that this resolution has the power to supersede their religious beliefs ???

brihaspati wrote:Somehow you appear to agree that GOI did this from awareness of weaknesses. We cannot talk of being "aggressive" which in context meant apparently "voting against resolution" as we are yet "weak". Is that how see it? when u do things from weakness its called appeasement. With jihadis connected to the Palestine movement, appeasement only encourages them.
I think you have forgotten your own reply so please allow me to remind you again
brihaspati wrote:That next-to-best action would have been at the least an abstinence in consistence with Sushma Swaraj's line of "friends on both sides", and the best would have been voting against. That would have equally shown that India is no longer hostage to its own internal or external Islamic population, and that it may pursue more aggressive and non-appeasement policies towards India's enemies - especially of the Ummah, and ummah supporting types in the hood -like China.


You are the one here who is seeing this resolution from the pov of weakness/strength I see it from the pov of it's uselessness i.e. the hallmark of UN. And since you are consistently without facts trying to prove that the resolution was pro jihad I would like to remind you that you most adorable nations i.e. Russia and China also went ahead and "appeased", "encouraged" Palestinian jihad. What fresh excuses are you going to give now for that ???
brihaspati wrote:And u are claiming India is surrounded by friendly neighbours by not emulating big-bad-friendless China? As for control, they still seem to regularly get Uighur "separatists" to be hanged. They still determine who leads prayers unlike Kashmir valley with its geelanis ityadi.


Read my reply again I claimed nothing but only \indicated the flaws in their model. If you want China like model to be implemented in India then I fail to see how that is possible without India becoming communist ruled like China. Are you suggesting that we leave our democratic model and become a communist state like China ??? If not then please tell me how can we do that in India without violating the constitution.
brihaspati wrote:By repeating Congress position, what is the intent/needling/mindset signal sent? West would simply turn the screw tighter on Kashmir issue, and more so on India than Pak. If you had care dtos tudy western response to such counterthreats, they bash it even more without giving in. Expect more active support to Kashmii separatists from the back as a result of this vote.
Had congress been in power we would have abstained from voting since that's what we had been doing for the past decade i.e. follow American command. Congress had no balls to stand up and give two finger salute to the west and if you have followed Indian political scenario lately then by all indications we are getting prepared to do just that. So yes given the choices you gave needling west fits best.

Be assured I have absolutely no hopes of any kind of help coming from west or south or east or north regarding Kashmir and their support to Kashmiri jihadis isn't a new thing. I want India to become militarily and economically powerful so that we can payback in kind with interest for all the support they have given all these years to jihadis in India. If voting for some resolution is a step towards that then so be it, I wait patiently for that day.
brihaspati wrote: Didnt use "puny" its your adjective. I said it is routine work for any border. Its not only jihadis who use that border, far bigger flows go on. Jihadi specific institutionalization/steps would look at destroying the cross border madrassah-dawa networks, and its not a "border" problem only.
Given you consistent attempt to brush it off as nothing big as also visible by this reply of yours I think I used the right adjective. I haven't said that it's the only step that is necessary to be taken so as to destroy the jihadi network in India which will be a long drawn fight but this action of GoI is a step towards that direction. By reducing the available foot soldiers the GoI is denting the jihadi agenda and if you are denying that then it only shows your ignorance about the issue which has been a major political agenda in the just concluded LS election and still is. Off course it's not a border only problem but it is a problem which has to be dealt with and GoI is doing just that.
brihaspati wrote:2 vs 65 doesnt vanish the tunnels or the murderous intent of Hamas, often publicly given on Palestinian media to wipe off Israel.
*650, bombing children's also doesn't do that surprisingly !!!! What happened to the legendary Mossad ??? Can't even find a few tunnels to bomb out, what a shame.
brihaspati wrote:Ignoring the charter is important for you, for it spells out that no amount of appeasement will stop the ultimate target of jihad. Helping Palestinian separatism in any possible way is ironically building up the material that will be used against India.
Ignoring things which are useless to India is important to me. Your pinning of hope of fighting against global jihad on this UNHRC resolution is comical. Bharat has been at war with jihadis long before Palestine/Israel even came to existence so whether they exist or not doesn't matter because we will be at war against jihadis till Islam exists and it's going to be a long fight.
brihaspati wrote:Argument similar to - you didnt criticize all the rapes that were happening in the city at the same time, so you cannot critcize a single one.
I expect Hitler/Nazis to make an appearance in your reply soon.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Sagar G wrote: I have already given reasons as to why the resolution is heavily one sided. You can infer whatever you want to from the resolution but the fact is that the resolution doesn't have anything like what you suggest even after being heavily loaded against Israel. Pains of international diplomacy, there is only much that ummah nations can do at UNHRC and this resolution is their limit. The resolution hasn't stopped Israel to do what it thinks it right (I had said this before as well). The resolution also contains
4. Calls for an immediate cessation of Israeli military assaults throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and an end to attacks against all civilians, including Israeli civilians;
You didnt give any justification as to why the fact of children/civilians dying allows suppressing atrocities by the side on which more collateral damage happened. By that logic, Israel's role should not be discussed too, as before this it was Israeli civilians who were disproportionately suffering casualties.

The resolution also lauds the so-called "unity gov", which includes Hamas with its open charter for genocidal cleansing of Jews, and who have refused to denounce that doctrine.
Even ummah controlled media recognises the futility of this exercise
Why Modi’s India aligns more closely with Israel than with Palestinians
So what if you and ummah agree on something? how does that somehow legitimize the "resolution"?

The "criticizable action" is your stance not mine I don't even care for this vote since I know that it means nothing on the ground and you can see for yourself how much this has affected Israel till now i.e. NIL.

When you point out an individual to blame for an action which was taken by a group to which the individual was part of then it only shows your bias towards that individual. So why are you biased towards India while you try and justify/brush under the carpet the actions of other nations in the group ???

Even after "affording to" go ahead and vote for the resolution both the countries still face the threat of jihad. China continues to see jihadi violence in Xinxiang region and Russia got bombed before Sochi Olympics. We can see that jihadis are already encouraged enough to do violence so why are you linking this resolution with encouragement/dis encouragement of jihad when the reality speaks otherwise ??? Jihadis are already encouraged by their religious beliefs so are you saying that this resolution has the power to supersede their religious beliefs ???
If you dont care at all, why gloat on this supposed fingering of USA? You do care, don't you? Otherwise you wouldnt bother repeating your argument that you are oh-so-delighted that India apparently (by your claim) broke free of supposed US hegemony on such issues.

Do you confirm then that the voting by India was done after consultation with Russia and China? As otherwise your "in a group" argument doesnt hold. Do you realize what that means on the other direction? if you claim India did this because it had to do so in-a-group, and not on its own independent will - then instead of USA, India has chosen new masters - by your very logic of voting along with someone means following their hegemony - Russia and China.

You are good at twisting words: but its your fantasy about "superseding religious beliefs". I never said anything like that. I said, it is their religious belief to see such support from non-Muslim forces that have not bashed them down in war, - as sign of weakness from that non-Muslim side. They are encouraged to be more jihadist from such appeasements. You are repeatedly trying fudge the issue by ignoring my simple statement that Russia/China has really really thrashed jihadis, and in many cases repressed the mullahcracy and islamic infrastructure itself. So a token of support from these two on Palestine will not be seen as appeasement by jihadis and will not be seen as a sign of weakness.

You are the one here who is seeing this resolution from the pov of weakness/strength I see it from the pov of it's uselessness i.e. the hallmark of UN. And since you are consistently without facts trying to prove that the resolution was pro jihad I would like to remind you that you most adorable nations i.e. Russia and China also went ahead and "appeased", "encouraged" Palestinian jihad. What fresh excuses are you going to give now for that ???
Again the POV issue. as for appeasement stuff, already explained many times before. So lets take up the "I dont care/uselessness" angle. If it was useless, why do you insist on voting for it? from your side, there would be no difference in voting for, abstaining, voting against.

Read my reply again I claimed nothing but only \indicated the flaws in their model. If you want China like model to be implemented in India then I fail to see how that is possible without India becoming communist ruled like China. Are you suggesting that we leave our democratic model and become a communist state like China ??? If not then please tell me how can we do that in India without violating the constitution.
You were suggesting that by being ugly with all its neighbours China was somehow a pariah in the neighbourhood? the eagerness with which it is sought out and still given access to [yes even in Vietnam] seems to completely trash your logic that we need to please our muslim majority neighbours, as far as the Gulf, to be welcome or given access to these countries.
Had congress been in power we would have abstained from voting since that's what we had been doing for the past decade i.e. follow American command. Congress had no balls to stand up and give two finger salute to the west and if you have followed Indian political scenario lately then by all indications we are getting prepared to do just that. So yes given the choices you gave needling west fits best.
Why slyly wriggle away from the fact that this vote was doing more than the Congress was willing to- in order to show appeasement of the Ummah, and its not a departure/opposition to the Congress position, but an enhancement in the same direction.
Be assured I have absolutely no hopes of any kind of help coming from west or south or east or north regarding Kashmir and their support to Kashmiri jihadis isn't a new thing. I want India to become militarily and economically powerful so that we can payback in kind with interest for all the support they have given all these years to jihadis in India. If voting for some resolution is a step towards that then so be it, I wait patiently for that day.
Well even your Palestinian jihad whom you favoured through this resolution will not abstain from supporting Kashmiri jihadi when it comes to that. Cheers. If you have this level of anger against the "west"/US for its protection of jihad, or eager to show you have thrown off US hegemony - why run like the pariah street dog into the household that earlier kicked your butt, on the first whistled invitation to enter that household? your fine sense of prestige and self-esteem doesnt feel miffed at all?
Given you consistent attempt to brush it off as nothing big as also visible by this reply of yours I think I used the right adjective. I haven't said that it's the only step that is necessary to be taken so as to destroy the jihadi network in India which will be a long drawn fight but this action of GoI is a step towards that direction. By reducing the available foot soldiers the GoI is denting the jihadi agenda and if you are denying that then it only shows your ignorance about the issue which has been a major political agenda in the just concluded LS election and still is. Off course it's not a border only problem but it is a problem which has to be dealt with and GoI is doing just that.
strawman :I didnt claim it was not a LS election "issue". [Certain things never change in hagiographers - even if they switched over from Congress to BJP]. In your eagerness to try to prove my ignorance you had to invent this as my claim/position. But since you brought this up, yes, it seems it is you who are very much aware of how this issue was used in the last LS elections, but given the way things are going, the actual madrassa networks are never going to be touched. Bengalis or Ahoms who voted thinking that network would be undermined/targeted are in for a disappointment. The border will remain porous, and as long as the villages which have been islamized in a very strategic way on the Indian side of the border, or the Islamist infrastructure that has been allowed to grow roots - will remain intact, which in turn will keep the border porous for your "foot-soldiers".
brihaspati wrote:2 vs 65 doesnt vanish the tunnels or the murderous intent of Hamas, often publicly given on Palestinian media to wipe off Israel.
*650, bombing children's also doesn't do that surprisingly !!!! What happened to the legendary Mossad ??? Can't even find a few tunnels to bomb out, what a shame.
Don't deflect: your demand was that the fact of 2 vs 65 is enough justification not to mention the tunnels, or not to criticize Hamas - part of the unity gov lauded in the resolution - for its open genocidal intent. You want to hate Mossad, its your problem. All jihadis and anti-semites bash Mosad too. How is that relevant to the deliberate suppression of jihadi role?
Ignoring things which are useless to India is important to me. Your pinning of hope of fighting against global jihad on this UNHRC resolution is comical. Bharat has been at war with jihadis long before Palestine/Israel even came to existence so whether they exist or not doesn't matter because we will be at war against jihadis till Islam exists and it's going to be a long fight.
and you will support appeasement of that jihadi in any form if it affords you points-scoring with their part-time protectors?
I expect Hitler/Nazis to make an appearance in your reply soon.
Oh so relevant! Do I explicitly need to? Given that you have felt so passionately about the need to bash Israel's "unkind-towards-jihadi" activities?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

On second thoughts, Sagar G' s logic is kind of fascinating:

Voting on the resolution alongside and with USA means toeing US hegemony:
not Voting shows point-scoring/getting even for US role in protecting jihad against India.

China and Pakistan both involved in jihad, protecting jihad against India.

Voting on the resolution alongside and with China/Pak means toeing Chinese/Pak hegemony:
not voting would be showing point-scoring/getting even for Chinese/Pak role in protecting jihad against India - which thankfully for Sagar G, India didnt do.

Amazing level of non-caring for useless stuff.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

This one is probably worth archiving, coming as it does from David Cohen
Former Deputy Assistant Sec. of the Interior.

No Country Has More Friends Of Israel Than … India?

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/18/no-co ... z3AnpUP7hE


Very surprising that an American Jew formerly in the administration would record a concern with proslytisation.
JE Menon
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

^^Not at all surprising. In general, as far as I know, Judaism is a non-proselytizing faith... It is a central similarity with Hinduism. In fact, like in Hinduism, it is actually quite difficult to formally convert into Judaism.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

American Jews scrupulously avoid debating Christian evangelist activity. For the very good reason that it may jeopardise right wing support.
Rony
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rony »

^^

Correct me if i am wrong but its a little same (wrongly in my opinion) with Hindu American advocates too. When was the last time HAF or any other Hindu organization talked about American Christian Fundamentalists support to Militant groups in north east India or provocative and destabilizing conversion activities in other parts of India ?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Very surprising that an American Jew formerly in the administration would record a concern with proslytisation.
not surprising - to the best of my knowledge proslytisation is banned in Israel. the Ejs donot like to talk about it

all these bible thumpers will get deported if they are caught trying to convert Jews
Shanmukh
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

Surya wrote:
Very surprising that an American Jew formerly in the administration would record a concern with proslytisation.
not surprising - to the best of my knowledge proslytisation is banned in Israel. the Ejs donot like to talk about it

all these bible thumpers will get deported if they are caught trying to convert Jews
Evangelism is not banned in Israel. Israel is also struggling to hold back evangelism, which takes various guises to get converts in Israel (some of them utterly nauseating, like offering cash and goodies to dead soldiers' dependents to convert to Christianity). A rabbi once estimated that the Jews lose about 20-30K people every decade to conversions to other faiths.

@JEM-saar,
Hardcore Jews refuse to accept converts to Judaism. Anyone not born of a Jewish mother is considered a non-Jew by these.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Vipul »

No Country Has More Friends Of Israel Than … India?

In Kolkata, India on Saturday, the Gaza conflict brought 20,000 people to the streets for a massive demonstration — in support of Israel. This was a remarkable display in a city that has always been a leftist bastion. It reinforces a rather counterintuitive conclusion that I have come to recently: India, the country with the second-largest Muslim population in the world, a country with more Muslims than Egypt and Iran combined, a country whose government has consistently sided against Israel over the past six and a half decades has more supporters of Israel than any other country in the world. More than the United States. More than Israel.

By “supporters” of Israel, I mean people who generally have more sympathy for Israel than for her enemies. Since I’m speaking in terms of absolute numbers rather than percentages, my confidence in my thesis is bolstered by India’s sheer size: over 1.2 billion people strong. And there’s even evidence that the percentage of people with a favorable view of Israel is higher in India than in any other major country, including the U.S. Affinity for Israel is strongest among core supporters of new Prime Minister Narendra Modi, whose Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) won over 171 million votes in this year’s election.

Sadanand Dhume wrote in the Wall Street Journal recently about the emerging “India-Israel axis.” (The term “axis” might be too tempting a target for lefties, who mindlessly use the “Nazi” epithet against Israel — and the BJP.) Dhume makes a compelling case for why a “burgeoning strategic partnership with Israel matters more to India than reflexive solidarity with the Palestinian cause.” Dhume observes that “many ordinary Indians instinctively grasp the natural confluence of interests with Israel,” citing, among other things, how both democracies are on the front lines against Islamist terrorism.

Sushma Swaraj, Modi’s Minister of External Affairs, got high marks from many Indians on Twitter last month when she stood firm against an anti-Israel resolution in parliament. A few days later, however, another anti-Israel resolution came up before the UN Human Rights Council. This time, India supported the resolution. Given the strong stance the Modi government had taken in its own parliament just a few days earlier, it was somewhat surprising that India didn’t at least abstain from the UN resolution. What was really surprising, however, at least to me, was the outpouring of anger at Modi from his own base in reaction to the vote. Prominent pro-Modi journalist Kanchan Gupta tweeted: “As an Indian I oppose and reject the vote and #IamWithIsrael.” Another prominent journalist and Modi supporter, Rupa Subramanya, called the vote “shameful.” Their sentiments were echoed by many average Indians.

Barely two months earlier, these same people helped sweep Modi into office in an epic landslide. I was taken aback at how some of his followers so quickly turned angry at him — over failing to stand up for Israel, of all things.

In retrospect, I think I understand why Modi’s supporters were so disappointed. After 67 years of mostly on-again, occasionally off-again rule by the Congress party, India this year voted resoundingly for change. Congress, dominated since independence by the “dynasty” founded by Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first prime minister, was seen by Modi partisans as corrupt, cynical, hypocritical, and divisive.

Modi’s win was a rejection not only of the Nehru Dynasty but of the colonial British, who had tried to teach Hindus to be ashamed of their culture. Since Hinduism was India’s dominant religion, the British believed that undermining their cultural self-confidence was key to the colonialists’ ability to control a much larger population. They also controlled India through divide-and-rule tactics, constantly pitting India’s many linguistic, ethnic and religious groups against one another.

Modi backers saw the Nehru Dynasty as an extension of British divide-and-rule. The Congress party was seen as constantly pandering to various minority groups and promoting ethnic resentment, all in a cynical attempt to hold power with British colonial tactics. Critics saw Congress leaders as elitists who were still trying to please their former colonial masters, as if pining for an absent father. Hindu elites, in particular, obliged the ghosts of British Viceroys past by refusing to defend their heritage.

Modi, on the other hand, believes that Hinduism deserves to be defended. Hinduism is an ancient, highly evolved philosophy which recognizes a variety of paths to divinity; it is thus the antithesis of “my way or the highway” (or, as is becoming alarmingly common again, “my way or death”). That is why Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Zoroastrians, and others have been able to flourish in India. More Muslims choose to live in India than in neighboring Pakistan, which was carved out of India to allow Muslims to live under Muslim rule. The Hindu population of Pakistan, on the other hand, in spite of Hinduism’s deep roots there, has been diminished to a rounding error.

To many, the UN vote against Israel appeared to be a regression back to Congress’s way of doing things: subordinating the national interest in order to pander to the Muslim voting bloc. Fairly or not, it caused some to wonder whether they were really going to get the change they had fought so hard for.

Many Indians admire the cultural self-assurance of Israeli Jews, and their willingness to fight to defend Israel and Judaism. Many Hindus are now recovering their own cultural self-assurance, cleansing their DNA of the apologetic reflex that the British had tried to instill in them. They want to fight to defend Hinduism, which has had to contend for centuries with Muslim invaders who have practiced conversion by the sword, and Christian missionaries who, at times, have proselytized in a manner openly disrespectful to Hinduism. These Hindus want justice for the Kashmiri Pandits, the Hindu community that has been ethnically cleansed from their ancient homeland in Northern India by Pakistani-sponsored Islamist terrorism. Many Hindus wonder why India should support the Palestinians, when the Palestinians always side with the Pandits’ Islamist oppressors. Many Modi supporters see India as a necessary refuge for Hinduism, and empathize with the Jews’ need to defend, in Israel, the world’s refuge for Judaism.

There is a great point of compatibility between Hindus and Jews: Neither group seeks converts, and both find themselves outnumbered — and often besieged — by those that do. There are other commonalities as well. For example, while Jews don’t win as many spelling bees as Hindus, both groups revere education. The flip side is that Hindus and Jews each have a group of overeducated leftists who appear to be ashamed of who they are, and, through their chronic and conspicuous self-flagellation, seem eager to please people who despise them. Perhaps that’s a self-destructive mutation of the survival instinct that both groups developed through millennia of persecution.

One person who is not afflicted with such a mutation is Dr. Subramanian Swamy, a renowned economist and former cabinet minister who unabashedly promotes Hindu cultural values. Speaking at an India-Israel solidarity conference in Mumbai shortly after the UN vote, Swamy declared: “[T]he people of India support Israel no matter what the government of India did.” His packed, youthful audience responded with an enthusiastic roar. Take note, Israel, and know who your friends are.
Surya
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

nagesh

I am not sure - I have been told by some office colleagues that some evangelists have been deported

although in last few years the right wingers relaxed a bit - now they are probably getting worried

here Amb Orens cautions

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/b ... n-cautions
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

Surya wrote:nagesh

I am not sure - I have been told by some office colleagues that some evangelists have been deported

although in last few years the right wingers relaxed a bit - now they are probably getting worried

here Amb Orens cautions

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/b ... n-cautions
Surya-ji
Yes, off and on, the Evangelists who get caught doing unethical conversions do get deported. But, by and large, the evangelist system has survived without much damage done to it. Israel has never targeted the evangelist system, only individual preachers who become too obnoxious. Another side effect of evangelism is that evengelistic Christianity is spreading among the Arab Christians. Here, Israel has taken a hands off approach. Arab Christians were not too keen on integrating into Israel during the heydays of Arab nationalism. Consequently, evangelists were seen as a way to reduce effect of Arab Christianity. Without some protection for the Arab Christianity, I am afraid they are going to be toast soon. They form maybe 1-2% of Israel's population, and are haemorrhaging members badly to evangelistic creeds.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

brihaspati wrote:You didnt give any justification as to why the fact of children/civilians dying allows suppressing atrocities by the side on which more collateral damage happened. By that logic, Israel's role should not be discussed too, as before this it was Israeli civilians who were disproportionately suffering casualties.
I am not going to give you any kind of justification because you ain't any judge here and your fancying yourself as one is your own delusional problem.

* What I have to say I have said very clearly unlike your chameleon like attitude of changing stance and voice, mutilating my arguments as and when necessary to progress your pet agenda here, if you fail to comprehend straightforward replies then again that's your problem. Keep getting stuck in your own world of warped logic and conclusions I hardly care.
brihaspati wrote:The resolution also lauds the so-called "unity gov", which includes Hamas with its open charter for genocidal cleansing of Jews, and who have refused to denounce that doctrine.
The European Union, the United Nations, the United States, China, India, Russia and Turkey all agreed to work with it.
Educateyourself before putting up your half informed views.
brihaspati wrote:So what if you and ummah agree on something? how does that somehow legitimize the "resolution"?
Refer to * above.
brihaspati wrote:If you dont care at all, why gloat on this supposed fingering of USA? You do care, don't you? Otherwise you wouldnt bother repeating your argument that you are oh-so-delighted that India apparently (by your claim) broke free of supposed US hegemony on such issues.
Seeing your poor memory I would like to remind you that I chose one of the choices that you gave and if you have a problem with it then deal with it. Till my choices give you massive khujli I will continue to gloat since you are indulging me.
brihaspati wrote:Do you confirm then that the voting by India was done after consultation with Russia and China? As otherwise your "in a group" argument doesnt hold. Do you realize what that means on the other direction? if you claim India did this because it had to do so in-a-group, and not on its own independent will - then instead of USA, India has chosen new masters - by your very logic of voting along with someone means following their hegemony - Russia and China.
Amazing level of comprehension and deductive skills I must admit. If India votes for the resolution then accuse it of bending to jihadists while totally neglecting the similar action of countries poojaniya to Mr. brihaspati and when pointed out to the same accuse India of being subservient to the same countries poojaniya to Mr. brihaspati !!!!! So the agenda here is no matter what show India in poor light. Coincidentally the same agenda is followed by forces inimical to India.
brihaspati wrote:You are good at twisting words: but its your fantasy about "superseding religious beliefs".
Look who is talking :roll: and my fantasy !!!!! Again amazing level of comprehension and deductive skills I must admit.
brihaspati wrote:I never said anything like that. I said, it is their religious belief to see such support from non-Muslim forces that have not bashed them down in war, - as sign of weakness from that non-Muslim side. They are encouraged to be more jihadist from such appeasements. You are repeatedly trying fudge the issue by ignoring my simple statement that Russia/China has really really thrashed jihadis, and in many cases repressed the mullahcracy and islamic infrastructure itself. So a token of support from these two on Palestine will not be seen as appeasement by jihadis and will not be seen as a sign of weakness.
More pooja archana by Mr. brihaspati even when pointed out that his poojaniya countries are still facing/fighting the jihadi elements same as India but bahhh why accept real hard facts when one's agenda is to quarrel and not to debate.
brihaspati wrote:Again the POV issue. as for appeasement stuff, already explained many times before. So lets take up the "I dont care/uselessness" angle. If it was useless, why do you insist on voting for it? from your side, there would be no difference in voting for, abstaining, voting against.
Refer to * above.
brihaspati wrote:You were suggesting that by being ugly with all its neighbours China was somehow a pariah in the neighbourhood? the eagerness with which it is sought out and still given access to [yes even in Vietnam] seems to completely trash your logic that we need to please our muslim majority neighbours, as far as the Gulf, to be welcome or given access to these countries.
Refer to * above.
brihaspati wrote:Why slyly wriggle away from the fact that this vote was doing more than the Congress was willing to- in order to show appeasement of the Ummah, and its not a departure/opposition to the Congress position, but an enhancement in the same direction.
Refer to * above.
brihaspati wrote:Well even your Palestinian jihad whom you favoured through this resolution will not abstain from supporting Kashmiri jihadi when it comes to that. Cheers. If you have this level of anger against the "west"/US for its protection of jihad, or eager to show you have thrown off US hegemony - why run like the pariah street dog into the household that earlier kicked your butt, on the first whistled invitation to enter that household? your fine sense of prestige and self-esteem doesnt feel miffed at all?
Refer to * above.
brihaspati wrote:strawman :I didnt claim it was not a LS election "issue". [Certain things never change in hagiographers - even if they switched over from Congress to BJP].
Ah getting personal the last resort left for you. The desperation to claim "win" is very apparent now.
brihaspati wrote:In your eagerness to try to prove my ignorance you had to invent this as my claim/position. But since you brought this up, yes, it seems it is you who are very much aware of how this issue was used in the last LS elections, but given the way things are going, the actual madrassa networks are never going to be touched. Bengalis or Ahoms who voted thinking that network would be undermined/targeted are in for a disappointment. The border will remain porous, and as long as the villages which have been islamized in a very strategic way on the Indian side of the border, or the Islamist infrastructure that has been allowed to grow roots - will remain intact, which in turn will keep the border porous for your "foot-soldiers".
A dose of your own tactic tastes bitter no :mrgreen: for the rest of your post

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/winds-of-change-as-bjp-rises-in-bengal/article1-1252885.aspx
brihaspati wrote:Don't deflect: your demand was that the fact of 2 vs 65 is enough justification not to mention the tunnels, or not to criticize Hamas - part of the unity gov lauded in the resolution - for its open genocidal intent. You want to hate Mossad, its your problem. All jihadis and anti-semites bash Mosad too. How is that relevant to the deliberate suppression of jihadi role?
For bolded part refer to * above. Massive khujli induced due to pointing out of Mossad's failure has been duly noted and a new strain of Godwin's Law has been found. I shall call it "The Brihaspati Strain".
brihaspati wrote:and you will support appeasement of that jihadi in any form if it affords you points-scoring with their part-time protectors?
Refer to * above.
brihaspati wrote:Oh so relevant! Do I explicitly need to? Given that you have felt so passionately about the need to bash Israel's "unkind-towards-jihadi" activities?
Refer to * above.
Last edited by Sagar G on 24 Aug 2014 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
Sagar G
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

brihaspati wrote:On second thoughts, Sagar G' s logic is kind of fascinating:

Voting on the resolution alongside and with USA means toeing US hegemony:
not Voting shows point-scoring/getting even for US role in protecting jihad against India.

China and Pakistan both involved in jihad, protecting jihad against India.

Voting on the resolution alongside and with China/Pak means toeing Chinese/Pak hegemony:
not voting would be showing point-scoring/getting even for Chinese/Pak role in protecting jihad against India - which thankfully for Sagar G, India didnt do.

Amazing level of non-caring for useless stuff.
I appreciate your zeal but unfortunately I don't have any position vacant for the post of my spokesperson as of now so please don't waste your time for the same I can very well put forward my views and people who aren't looking to gain strategic upperhand get my views.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

:)
JE Menon
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Gents, kindly desist... thanks
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Sagar G wrote:Till my choices give you massive khujli I will continue to gloat since you are indulging me.
There it is : it is all about personal gloating. :P

You did claim that 2 against 65 was enough justification to omit Hamas rockets/tunnels/abductions/ and that the lauding of unity gov was also justified even if it meant therefore lauding one component of that gov which had openly jihadi charter. And you still went on claiming the resolution didnt support "jihad".

Your main contradiction was that on the one hand you said the resolution didnt matter to you, while on the other hand you were massively rejoicing at supposed point-scoring simply by voting opposite to the US position and vote. Also that thereby you were retaliating for US protection of Pakistani jihad. Voting the same as US - by your argument was - toeing US line on this/submitting to US hegemony.

Unfortunately, by that logic of yours, it means since India voted alongside Pakistan and China, both of which have protected jihad against India in various ways, India was toeing Pakistan and China line, and submitting to Pakistani and chinese hegemony.

Just like the LS issue, massive khujli against supposed "pointing out Mossad" failure - is non-existent on my part and your invention. Something that you want to see and you project as my statement. (as you see you acknowledged you lied but pretended as if I said it! :P ) You can see I didnt even go into any discussion on Mossad's "success/failure". It is your issue apparently that Mossad must fail! good! I am not interested in Mossad or its success/failure. I would like to see IDF succeed, and I have stated that clearly many times before. Nothing that you are seeing from me for the first time.

How does taking potshots at Mossad bother me?! just pointed out that similar glee at Mossad's failure is shown by jihadis and anti-Semites of all shades too. Even that doesnt bother me! so why should your joy at Mossad's failure be any issue for me! :rotfl:

As usual you understand zilch on the border situation on WB-Assam frontier. As if merely placing the army to man it will stop the Islamist problem on Indian side. I pointed out that if the madrassah+Islamist village+networks were not eliminated on the Indian side, the border will remain porous, and the jihad from BD bases will continue or even increase. So if BJP is not doing anything to break the "insiders" then any tempting of the locals at LS would be just that - "tempting" for electoral purposes, as merely border control is not enough there. Even at level of army activity on J&K LOC, folks still get recruited and pushed in.

I dont need newspapers to know the ground situation there, and if you kindly recall, I predicted opportunity and growth for the BJP in that zone at a time when no one thought the left would be out of power or for long. But I didnt say it will succeed unconditionally. Betraying their hopes would backfire massively.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Once again, gents, please stop.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

okay
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

An Abrahamic affliction strikes again. The excerpts from this story refer to the Hasidim in New York; but one wonders what goes on in Israel. (Forget about the NYT's worry about "liberal voters". Just notice how similar all this is to India's dysfunctional neighbor.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sunda ... -past.html
A 2012 demographic study by UJA-Federation of New York found that 60 percent of Jewish children in the New York City area — the Jewish center of the United States — live in Orthodox homes, which suggests that in a generation a majority of the city’s one million Jews may be classified as Orthodox. A sizable percentage of those children happen to be Hasidim, the group that has fueled Orthodox growth with its astonishing fecundity. (Seven or eight children per family is common and one Hasidic woman, Yitta Schwartz, had about 2,000 living descendants when she died in 2010.)
Yet Hasidim need to be better understood, not just because of their numbers but also because of their tendency to vote in blocs according to the wishes of a sect’s grand rabbi, who often makes his choices based on pragmatic rather than ideological reasons.
In Hasidic schools, teenage boys are not enrolled in classes like science, mathematics and history, which most Americans take for granted. Some Hasidic yeshivas offer almost no secular instruction for boys after fifth grade, and others after eighth grade. Instead, the boys focus on the 63 volumes of Talmud that contain debates of ancient rabbis on Jewish rituals, laws and ethics. (Girls are not encouraged to study Talmud deeply and so get a more extensive secular education.)

That instructional deficiency may not square with New York State law, which requires private schools to offer “equivalency of instruction.” But when you question a principal of a Hasidic yeshiva, he will explain that students learn geometry when they parse the Talmud passages on the architecture of the Holy Temple, or learn astronomy when they analyze the Talmud’s arguments on what constitutes daybreak for morning prayers. The state has not cracked down, it is widely believed, not just because of constitutional concerns about religious freedom but because the Hasidim are a potent electoral force that politicians do not want to alienate.
The Hasidic faith is all-encompassing, governing nearly every human activity from eating to clothing to sex, and the commandments are ironclad and carried out with remarkable intensity. Hasidim’s 18th-century founders encouraged zeal in prayer and performance of the commandments, known as mitzvoth, and many of today’s Hasidim go the extra mile. For several years now, an organization in Borough Park, Brooklyn, has set up virtual hospital wards in synagogue basements with beds and IV drips so the frail and sick can receive nourishment on Yom Kippur without violating the ritual of fasting.

Hasidim also do not marry, choose an occupation, settle in a neighborhood or undergo surgery or infertility treatments without consulting their rebbe, the grand rabbi, or a leading rabbi. Ultra-Orthodox leaders have insisted that witnesses to sexual abuse get a rabbi’s permission before providing evidence to prosecutors.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Kudos to NYT for publishing that. And yes Islam is Judaism redux. Xtianity is actuallly the ideological side branch of Judaism whereas Islam is the the linear descendent of the semitic phylogentic tree.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Is it something about the left that makes them engage in jew bashing even whilst ignoring the actual violence perpetrated by islamism.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ Not Jew-bashing. Unsecularized Abrahamics are a threat to everyone around them, period - Christians, Muslims, Jews.

Jews and Christians are more secularized after so much war in Europe so typically they are less of a threat; but they are subject to outbreaks of desecularization. Even so, there is a strong intellectual counter to desecularization in the so-called "Enlightenment", and the few centuries of (imperfectly) secular traditions.

Mussalmans never explicitly secularized. Where they retain the traditions and history of their original communities, they are de facto secularized; but because there is no philosophical or intellectual defense of this condition in their history, they are very prone to desecularization.

To keep this relevant to Israel, here's some more news:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.576970
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/sh ... m-1.477587

This from 2012.
Whether because of shrinking government stipends or the pull of a better material life, Haredi men seem to be gingerly entering the workforce.
So what’s the downside?

The numbers on Haredi employment and education point to exactly what the downside is. We can examine them through the lens of a typical kollel student who has decided to take the big step.

Our young man has reason to be encouraged. True, the social stigma in their communities on men having jobs and the anathemas pronounced by rabbis on those who don’t devote their life to Torah study are strong disincentives, but the fact is a lot of his friends and relatives have taken jobs. The Bank of Israel, crunching numbers from the Central Bureau of Statistics, estimated earlier this year that the rate of employment among Haredi males had risen from 38.7% in 2009 to 45.6% in 2011 (among those who graduated from a higher yeshiva) or from 30.7% to 38.3% (men belonging to households in which there are “continuing” yeshiva graduates, the core of the Haredi population).

Now, bear in mind that while these figures do represent some growth in the Haredi labor force participation rate, there’s still a long way to go. Among non-Haredi Jews, the rate last year was 81.4%. Moreover, non-Haredi Jews worked more hours per week (46 versus no more than 39.5 for Haredim).
But our neophyte job seeker has probably never heard of the Bank of Israel or the Central Bureau of Statistics. He's also unlikely to have learned very much math during his school years.

According to the Council for Higher Education, the number of ultra-Orthodox students in study programs geared to the ultra-Orthodox sector rose from around 2,000 in 2005 to around 5,000 in 2010, with most of the growth occurring among men. But those numbers are tiny compared to the numbers of students who are not getting any modern education at all.
Without even addressing the quality of teaching, the study found that 83% of Haredi elementary schools taught math (versus 100% in all the other streams), with the rate falling to 41% in post-elementary education.
But our jobseeker doesn’t know any of this. After all, almost no one else he knows has ever applied for a job and he never got a taste of the bottom rungs of the labor market by working as a waiter or call service drone while a student. He goes from employer to employer with a CV highlighting his lack of experience and education, fails a battery of job tests, refuses to shake hands with his female interviewer and looks at her curiously when she makes a passing reference to some bit of popular culture.
The unemployment rate among Haredi men is similar to the rest of the uneducated population. A study by the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies tracked a steady decline in employment rates for men between 35 and 54, with four years of education or less, from 1979 to 2011. The line shows a steady descent for them and Haredi males to less than 50%. The reason, of course, is that neither group has the qualifications to work in a modern economy. Whereas three or four decades ago, you could learn your skills on the job, working today requires a skill set that takes years of preparation in and out of school. The uneducated simply don’t obtain it.
What do you think will happen to Israel if the Haredim become a majority among the Jews? Will pointing out the problem of fundamentalism still be "Jew-bashing"?
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