Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 25 Jul 2014 09:39

I think the best action for India would have been to abstain from the voting. But, I guess Indian government is trying to please 'secular' voters.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Jul 2014 09:50

Devesh: chukAna not jhukana.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jul 2014 15:08

I agree with the reasons for YES vote given by Suraj et al. Its real politic and I understand that.

The problem with ascribing "good intention" and "deeper reasons" for acts which go against the grain of common sense acceptance of the right course for right reasons, is that yesterday Man mohan's govt was using the same excuse for all matters of shady activities, and also similar reasons can be an excuse for another Man mohan.

Of course the "test" for such actions being Chankian or truly statecraft from Chanakya is finally in the outcome. It is a good rule of thumb to assume that if the future unfolds as we like it, the past actions were not random bumbling or anti Indian moles in govt, but truly, well intentioned double-speak of statecraft.

However, very (very very very) few of us, even on BRF, take a long term holistic (without apologies to Manish Tiwari) view of such things in their entirety. JS despite exceptional courage and bravery gets called names.

NaMo is being spared because a lot of people have immense emotional investment, but if things stumble, how long when knives are out for him like for ABV even on BRF ?

Net net, these are always expensive and difficult choices for the govt, and the judgement in outcome based, not intent based, because, frankly, no one sees intent.

Lets hope Modi's choices overall give a final outcome that makes this discussion moot.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 25 Jul 2014 16:17

^^Very well said.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 25 Jul 2014 19:57

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Jul 2014 20:10

NaMo is being spared because a lot of people have immense emotional investment, but if things stumble, how long when knives are out for him like for ABV even on BRF ?

hmm already out in some threads

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 25 Jul 2014 20:41

matrimc wrote:Devesh: chukAna not jhukana.

My apologies....my hindi is getting rusty. Rookie mistake

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Jul 2014 20:52

Also once one explains the Chanakyan move how exactly I it going to achieve the intended effect? Some moves are like gambits in chess. Losing a knight or rook for a pawn is unimportant if the next five moves leads checkmate the opponent.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Jul 2014 20:55

Devesh: easy to remember the meaning of jhukana. Mnemonic is the song "sir kaTA saktE hain lEkin sir jhukA saktE nahin"

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2014 23:59

India has the right to calibrate its response!

Existence of Israel is a fundamental national interest for India. Israel keeps a huge part of the Islamic focus on Israel, thus dividing resources of Islam against the Kufr. It is as simple as that.

However if India knows that US is there to stop any harmful resolutions against Israel, then India's vote one way or another doesn't change much. Then India can maximize its own vantage position, and vote against Israel.

However while outwardly mildly critical of Israel, India should go ahead and bolster Israel as much as possible. Continued cooperation on surveillance satellites, drones and other military hardware as well as intelligence, training, etc is more important than India's vote in UN.

akashganga · Post by **akashganga** » 26 Jul 2014 02:40

RajeshA wrote:India has the right to calibrate its response!

Existence of Israel is a fundamental national interest for India. Israel keeps a huge part of the Islamic focus on Israel, thus dividing resources of Islam against the Kufr. It is as simple as that.

However if India knows that US is there to stop any harmful resolutions against Israel, then India's vote one way or another doesn't change much. Then India can maximize its own vantage position, and vote against Israel.

However while outwardly mildly critical of Israel, India should go ahead and bolster Israel as much as possible. Continued cooperation on surveillance satellites, drones and other military hardware as well as intelligence, training, etc is more important than India's vote in UN.

Also survival of tiny jew religion is in the interests of hindus as jews survived onslaught of both islamists and christians over the last 2000 years and survived and showed that their god could not even convert every one to his only true faith even in the place where their religion was born.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 26 Jul 2014 03:47

India’s Oh-So-Delicate Balancing Act on Israel

Just after India’s Parliament rejected a resolution to censure Israel’s actions in Gaza, the country voted for the United Nation’s Human Rights Council resolution against Israel. Time reports:

The UN Human Rights Council voted Wednesday to launch an inquiry into potential violations of human rights by Israel in its conflict with Hamas in the Gaza Strip — a move Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly labeled a “travesty” [...]

The council’s inquiry would investigate “all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law” in Palestinian areas. The resolution was drafted by Palestine, and supported by 29 of the 46-member council. The U.S. voted against the resolution, while European countries abstained.

India’s decision to support this resolution reflects a careful balancing act. Israel’s leaders (like all thinking people) hold the UNHRC in healthy contempt. They wouldn’t resent India for casting meaningless votes in a pointless talking shop. For India’s government, on the other hand, supporting the inquiry allows it to appease Muslims and others at home who are offended by the country’s increasingly pro-Israel stance. Moreover, it helps India fool the useful idiots everywhere who think such votes matter. They will come away thinking India remains unaligned with Israel, when, in fact, beneath a PR move like this the links between the two country are getting stronger and stronger.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jul 2014 04:25

India’s Oh-So-Delicate Balancing Act on Israel
Sometime such too-clever by half attempts at spin unravel.

Whether India votes for Palestine or not, Islamism will still target India as long as it is non-Muslim majority. Moreover, supporting Islamic groups in any conflict situation typically makes the Muslims think the non-Muslim supporters are "weak". There is no end to appeasement as the more appeasement is given demand grows for more.

So still doesnt give any solid reason not to abstain.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 26 Jul 2014 05:33

According to this article, Hamas is storing rockets in schools.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/for-second ... l-in-gaza/

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jul 2014 11:10

brihaspati wrote:Who cares about Israel breaking "off" relations with India?!!! Keeping Saudis happy is much much more important. Of course it is a matter of gaining from supporting countries, what can Israel offer! some weapons! does that contribute to development and prosperity? absolutely no^100! just ye think of the money that Saudis can invest in! man...all the finance networks gaining in commissions, fees, and now-proven of GOI inability to touch any of that if shipped or cut abroad, sweetening political pockets, so much dough circulating just to get a small cut from would make one's "life".

Miss the voice that promised that Saudi and Gulf investments will make India a zooper-power. He was the correctly representative mindset and viewpoint of those who will never really be out of power.

Oh come on garu don't get overtly emotional about a vote which changes nothing for Israel. India has voted against Israel for long but still they supplied us with precision weapons during Kargil, so if a single vote against totally upsets equations then how come that happened back then ??? I didn't expect this "Forever Indebted Syndrome" from a person like you having a wide range of knowledge about everything under the sun. So what if Israel supplies us with weapons, it's an equally beneficial relationship for both of us. They get their much required money and we get tech for our use, it's not like Israel is doing us charity or giving us weapons for free. We have scientist exchange programs with them and I don't see that getting changed anytime soon even though they are delaying from their end in certain important programs. The engagement with Israel is wide ranging and I am pretty sure that this changes nothing on ground as far as India-Israel engagement goes. We don't have to bend over backwards to maintain relationship with any country. If Israel takes this vote against them to their hearts and want to end good relationship with us then so be it no need to shed tears for that.

Umaah investment will only come if you are willing to kiss ummah ass or become a part of ummah and I don't see how this vote by India in a resolution which has ghanta effect on Israel == GoI showing intent to do that.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 26 Jul 2014 12:33

I hope we all will remember our posts when in future, a friendly country like Russia votes against us in UN. We will understand the chanikian majboori of that friendly nation.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jul 2014 13:44

Sagar G wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Who cares about Israel breaking "off" relations with India?!!! Keeping Saudis happy is much much more important. Of course it is a matter of gaining from supporting countries, what can Israel offer! some weapons! does that contribute to development and prosperity? absolutely no^100! just ye think of the money that Saudis can invest in! man...all the finance networks gaining in commissions, fees, and now-proven of GOI inability to touch any of that if shipped or cut abroad, sweetening political pockets, so much dough circulating just to get a small cut from would make one's "life".

Miss the voice that promised that Saudi and Gulf investments will make India a zooper-power. He was the correctly representative mindset and viewpoint of those who will never really be out of power.
Oh come on garu don't get overtly emotional about a vote which changes nothing for Israel. India has voted against Israel for long but still they supplied us with precision weapons during Kargil, so if a single vote against totally upsets equations then how come that happened back then ??? I didn't expect this "Forever Indebted Syndrome" from a person like you having a wide range of knowledge about everything under the sun. So what if Israel supplies us with weapons, it's an equally beneficial relationship for both of us. They get their much required money and we get tech for our use, it's not like Israel is doing us charity or giving us weapons for free. We have scientist exchange programs with them and I don't see that getting changed anytime soon even though they are delaying from their end in certain important programs. The engagement with Israel is wide ranging and I am pretty sure that this changes nothing on ground as far as India-Israel engagement goes. We don't have to bend over backwards to maintain relationship with any country. If Israel takes this vote against them to their hearts and want to end good relationship with us then so be it no need to shed tears for that.

Umaah investment will only come if you are willing to kiss ummah ass or become a part of ummah and I don't see how this vote by India in a resolution which has ghanta effect on Israel == GoI showing intent to do that.

You think my post was overly emotional? great personal judgments. did my post lament or project fear of not getting weapons in the future from Israel? If Israel is so unaffected by what India does or doesnt and India also so unaffected by what Israel does or doesnt then by your theory, Israel has "ghanta" problem if it can't sell weapons to India. By your theory, also India could have been indifferent to what Israel does, isnt it? But apparently what Israel does, is so important for India that it had to go out and be seen as opposing Israel.

Somehow, even talk of abstaining from the voting is about showing bending-over-backwards low-lifing to "maintain relationship" with any country, but pleasing the Islamist countries or fearing to show non-chalance to Islamist interests is not "bending over backwards" to maintain relationship with any country!

But more importantly, where in my post am I lamenting of fearing potential disruption to "wide ranging interactions"? I had posted consistently on the impact of voting with a spectrum of international mobilization that is covering up the jihadi content, drive, intent of the Palestinian jihad that India has ended up siding with - since the proposal was drafted by these jihadis, and being supported by a range of international forces connected to jihadi religious and financial interests. Palestine is consistently and will increasingly be connected to Kashmir by Islamists, and for all the chest-thumping confidence here declaring that there is no cooenction/attempt at connecting the two will prove to be false. Those shouting about consistency strangely don't realize that as and when the growing jihadi political clout (as seen in GOI bending over backwards to not want to be seen as displeasing it) does establish connection in exactly similar fashion as it legitimized Palestinian jihad internationally - this very same Indian siding with Palestinian jihad will go against any Indian contention on J&K.

I had pointed out that the desperate bending-over-backwards vote to please Islam, would do "ghanta" in deflecting or even reducing Saudi led fronts support for jihad against India, and that the consistent islamist mindset looks at any support by any non-muslim entity as weakness of that entity.

About Saudi investments - if Israel cares ghanta about what happens in relationship with India, and India cares "ghanta" about what happens in relationship with Israel, there must be something highly cared for in voting for Palestinian jihad and pleasing Ummah? Someone had suggested that Gulf/Islamist investments would make India a sooper-power and also give growth and prosperity. I thought that when there was so much not-caring involved between Israel and India, GOI's eagerness to side with Ummah must be based on some really caring benefits of doing so! You think India cares neither about Israel nor about Ummah so just decided to support Palestinian jihad without thinking of any caring or benefits?

So if India gets "ghanta" out of voting against Israel, what is this over zealous khujlee in you if some of us point that out?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jul 2014 14:07

@ brihaspati

You have already made up your mind that by voting against Israel India has bend over backwards to please ummah. If so then the rest of the BRICS nations have committed the same crime what do you have to say about that ???

Be assured I have no khujli with anyone thinking otherwise, just hate to see unnecessary dhoti shivering.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jul 2014 14:20

You dont wear a dhoti do you? so why insult the dress?

When you make comments about voting against or not abstaining as NOT "bending over backwards" to please a foreign nation, logically, voting for or abstaining in favour of ummah IS "bending over backwards" to please the ummah.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jul 2014 14:24

Are you high or what, that's a BR speak.

By your logic except US (and other ummah countries who obviously voted for the resolution) everyone bent over backwards to please ummah so please consider them as well worthy of your ire while scathing this vote against Israel.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jul 2014 14:37

Sagar G wrote:Are you high or what, that's a BR speak.

By your logic except US (and other ummah countries who obviously voted for the resolution) everyone bent over backwards to please ummah so please consider them as well worthy of your ire while scathing this vote against Israel.

That used to be claimed as "BR speak", but we had long debates about it remember? as no mention of pyjama shiver or trouser shiver, it simply mocks and continues a well-documented tradition of the Brits who mocked the Hindu's "dhoti". When you associate dhoti with shivering, you insult the countless freedom fighters, who fought, were tortured, shot, hanged, batoned, bayonetted, - from the front - wearing dhotis. Hiding behind excuse of "BR speak" doesnt cover for this kind of bending-over-backwards affiliation to the "western" world.

When discussing GOI behaviour, why do you have to take shelter behind what other countries might have done from their own interests? Will you use that logic to do whatever China does? Have you copied Russian flattening of Chechen jihadis, or taking back of parts of territories it lost after dissolution of USSR?

Even if I agree for arguments sake, that we can ignore Russia's solid pummeling of jihadis, and taking back territories, or Chinas pastry-making out of Sinkiang jihadis without a single issue-making at UN a la J&K, ignoring that they can stoop to side with Ummah on Palestine to spite USA on on-going point-scoring games while they are doing it from a position of strength in successfully holding territories and bashing jihadis - GOI is barely holding on to its jihad infested portion, and is yet to take back land it lost to jihadis - are the two types of GUBOING comparable?

More importantly, what is the logic that claims I must first criticize other GUBOers before criticizing a particular GUBOer? Or if GUBOing is shared by many as an activity, a particular individual's GUBOing is not GUBOing?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 26 Jul 2014 17:22

from here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1690619

K Mehta wrote:The current actions dont look like a retaliation against killing of 3 youths, but much much bigger moves on the ground.

Ambar wrote:Israel has clearly stated the goal of 'Operation Protective Edge' is to dismantle terror tunnel network that smuggles in arms and ammunition which are routinely used against Israeli towns and cities by Hamas. If depopulating Gaza was the intention, then Israel wouldn't be using ground forces in a densely populated urban area

K Mehta wrote:The question then is that is the offensive effective? How long before hamas rebuilds? It will go for ceasefire as soon as its rocket inventory is empty, then again replenish and rebuild.
If (in my opinion) and when (as per you) IDF retreats, it would have not achieved anything that can be said as long lasting.

On the other hand depopulation would ensure a relatively longer lasting effect on one side atleast and even a threat to the other. It would however create bad PR and spoil their relations with arabs, may increase its targeting by the other side. This is hindered further by hamas holding their population captive and using them as human shields.

And now

Nightwatch wrote: Israel: The Israeli security cabinet convened today to discuss a new phase of Operation Protective Edge. Press accounts on 24 July indicated the cabinet decided to expand the Operation.

Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon told Golani Brigade troops on the Gaza border to prepare for the next mission ahead as the Israel Defense Forces reached the end of this stage of locating and destroying tunnels.

"We are preparing the next stages of the fighting after dealing with the tunnels and you need to be ready for any mission," Ya'alon said. "You need to be ready for more important steps in Gaza and the units that are now on standby need to prepare to go in."the security cabinet meeting decided to escalate the fighting. <snip>
the stage is set for incrementally seizing land in Gaza until Hamas is ready to trade an end to rocket attacks in order to get back its land. Loss of land universally means loss of the right to govern.

From here

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Jul 2014 17:31

New York Magazine
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-all.html
titled: It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jul 2014 17:54

brihaspati wrote:That used to be claimed as "BR speak", but we had long debates about it remember? as no mention of pyjama shiver or trouser shiver, it simply mocks and continues a well-documented tradition of the Brits who mocked the Hindu's "dhoti". When you associate dhoti with shivering, you insult the countless freedom fighters, who fought, were tortured, shot, hanged, batoned, bayonetted, - from the front - wearing dhotis. Hiding behind excuse of "BR speak" doesnt cover for this kind of bending-over-backwards affiliation to the "western" world.

When discussing GOI behaviour, why do you have to take shelter behind what other countries might have done from their own interests? Will you use that logic to do whatever China does? Have you copied Russian flattening of Chechen jihadis, or taking back of parts of territories it lost after dissolution of USSR?

Even if I agree for arguments sake, that we can ignore Russia's solid pummeling of jihadis, and taking back territories, or Chinas pastry-making out of Sinkiang jihadis without a single issue-making at UN a la J&K, ignoring that they can stoop to side with Ummah on Palestine to spite USA on on-going point-scoring games while they are doing it from a position of strength in successfully holding territories and bashing jihadis - GOI is barely holding on to its jihad infested portion, and is yet to take back land it lost to jihadis - are the two types of GUBOING comparable?

More importantly, what is the logic that claims I must first criticize other GUBOers before criticizing a particular GUBOer? Or if GUBOing is shared by many as an activity, a particular individual's GUBOing is not GUBOing?

IIRC dhoti shivering was a sarcastic take on the way Indians were projected of as a meek nation, I must have missed that debate when it was removed off as BR speak but please keep your over the top unnecessary reading between the lines about my affiliations to this and that to yourself. I didn't get personal with you and neither should you.

I am not trying to justify GoI behaviour through the votes of other nations but since non ummah nations from across the globe have either voted yes or abstained from voting which according to you means siding with the ummah then shouldn't you be discussing about this global catastrophe of non ummah nation bending over backwards to appease the umaah instead of criticising India selectively for it's vote ??? I mean it's a real danger to the world no, that non ummah nations are now bending over backwards in international fora to please them, then the anger should be directed against all of them why point out India only ??? Has India gained enough heft on the world stage that it's single vote legitimises jihad ???

Tell us what according to you GoI must do in it's remaining term to gain back lost land from jihadis. Tell us about the steps that can be practically taken to achieve that.

You should criticize all GUBOer's the same my question is why single out India for that ??? It was an international fora, India single handedly didn't vote against Israel.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 26 Jul 2014 23:17

A_Gupta wrote:New York Magazine
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-all.html
titled: It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

There was such an indication in an earlier report I posted from something called 'al-monitor'. Maybe they were looking for an excuse and were provided one by some other group.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2014 00:01

Sagar G wrote: IIRC dhoti shivering was a sarcastic take on the way Indians were projected of as a meek nation, I must have missed that debate when it was removed off as BR speak but please keep your over the top unnecessary reading between the lines about my affiliations to this and that to yourself. I didn't get personal with you and neither should you.

sarcastic takes that single out the "Hindu" onlee, knowing full well the origins of this sarcasm in brits mocking the Hindu and his "dhoti" is reprehensible. As if pyjamas, churidars, and trousers didnt shake in fear or cowardice! But associating that "dhoti" with fear/cowardice is a double insult as, most of our freedom fighters who bravely faced Brit sadism, did so in dhoti.

I am not trying to justify GoI behaviour through the votes of other nations but since non ummah nations from across the globe have either voted yes or abstained from voting which according to you means siding with the ummah then shouldn't you be discussing about this global catastrophe of non ummah nation bending over backwards to appease the umaah instead of criticising India selectively for it's vote ??? I mean it's a real danger to the world no, that non ummah nations are now bending over backwards in international fora to please them, then the anger should be directed against all of them why point out India only ??? Has India gained enough heft on the world stage that it's single vote legitimises jihad ???

You are smoothly now dropping one of your gloating that you see GOI action as "not bending over backwards to please a foreign nation". Logically, if not voting for, or not abstaining, is "not bending" then voting for, becomes "bending over backward" for the ummah. Do u see your logic means u are not against "bending over backwards" but you want that to happen to correct identities?

Tell us what according to you GoI must do in it's remaining term to gain back lost land from jihadis. Tell us about the steps that can be practically taken to achieve that.

You should criticize all GUBOer's the same my question is why single out India for that ??? It was an international fora, India single handedly didn't vote against Israel.

You are trying to fudge my point that your much touted Russia, China could afford to be seen as siding with Palestinian jihad, as they have shown their success in being able to ruthlessly finish off jihadis, jihad supporting political movements, and in case of China, even controlling how Islam functioned in its daily routines in Sinkiang. Both have recovered or retained territories that it lost, or expanded territorially.

Their gesture is a direct point scoring against USA for ongoing bilateral tussles, and because of the bashing, territory gaining power projection, their gesture will not be interpreted by jihadis and their supporters as out of "weakness".

For most others who voted for, they are doing it out of a combination of religious affiliation to factions within Ummah, or financial dependence, and anti-US politics. So the vote for was divided according to extremes of dependence or proven track record of bashing jihadis, territorial expansion, power projection outside borders over the last few decades (in case u try to bring in the 40 year old liberation of BD without gaining any territory).

India hasnt shown ability to project power outside borders, even couldnt finish Pakistan off, or take back NA, and couldnt even retaliate for sequential Paki sadism within own territory. Neither China, nor Russia allows separate laws for Muslims, and has shown no mercy to even attempts at the type of demos that are allowed to run amok in the Valley or in Muslim "dominated" (doesnt have to be numerical) states of India.

What India/GOI can do to recover territories it lost, or practical steps, is a different issue. This is unrelated to the original connection in that India has failed to do this unlike Russia and China, and therefore the two latter are in a position of proven strength/determination to roll back jihadis, which India was yet to do - and hence the gubo-ing by India is different from that by China/Russia.

Take the august company India was in while voting for: Algeria, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Costa Rica, Cote d'Ivoire, Cuba, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, the Maldives, Mexico, Morocco, Namibia, Pakistan, Peru, the Philippines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, the United Arab Emirates, Venezuela, and Vietnam.

It was with Pakistan. 9 out of 28 outright Islamist countries, (and yes KSA's friendship with USA cannot be used as justification for Indian behaviour, as that would imply India is involved as deeply in jihad as KSA is). 8 out of 28 are in the Latin American bloc, currently engaged in a running tussle with USA over economic and political issues.
Out of remaining :
Cote-d'Ivoire :35-40% Sunni Muslim
Ethiopia: 33-34% Sunni Muslim
Sierra Leone: 70% Sunni Muslim
Kenya &Philippines : 10% Sunnis,
Namibia : historical connection to the "Left bloc" and continues to move that way

Kenya/DRC seemingly majority Christian, but recent historical reasons to align with the historical "left" (Russia/China/Cuba) and against USA.

Among non-Muslim majority countries, Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy (both in subtle conflict with US evangelism) prevails, and this is also true of the "left" bloc in Latin America.

So they all voted out of ongoing anti-US games, or religious competition, and pro-Islamic views. Is India in any of these categories?

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 27 Jul 2014 00:05

K Mehta wrote:The question then is that is the offensive effective? How long before hamas rebuilds? It will go for ceasefire as soon as its rocket inventory is empty, then again replenish and rebuild.
If (in my opinion) and when (as per you) IDF retreats, it would have not achieved anything that can be said as long lasting.

On the other hand depopulation would ensure a relatively longer lasting effect on one side atleast and even a threat to the other. It would however create bad PR and spoil their relations with arabs, may increase its targeting by the other side. This is hindered further by hamas holding their population captive and using them as human shields.

K Mehta wrote: And now

Nightwatch wrote: Israel: The Israeli security cabinet convened today to discuss a new phase of Operation Protective Edge. Press accounts on 24 July indicated the cabinet decided to expand the Operation.

Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon told Golani Brigade troops on the Gaza border to prepare for the next mission ahead as the Israel Defense Forces reached the end of this stage of locating and destroying tunnels.

"We are preparing the next stages of the fighting after dealing with the tunnels and you need to be ready for any mission," Ya'alon said. "You need to be ready for more important steps in Gaza and the units that are now on standby need to prepare to go in."the security cabinet meeting decided to escalate the fighting. <snip>
the stage is set for incrementally seizing land in Gaza until Hamas is ready to trade an end to rocket attacks in order to get back its land. Loss of land universally means loss of the right to govern.
From here

What should Israel do ? They have 2 options : Hunt for Hamas rocket launchers, tunnels and other military infrastructure. Destroy them and buy 2 years of relative peace. or (2) Pull out at a critical phase without having achieved the original objective of destroying the tunnels and stopping kidnapping/rocket attacks.

If Israel wants to hold land as a barter for stopping rocket attacks, then so be it. In my opinion, as costly as urban wars are, Israel must not agree for a cease fire. Israel must go on and destroy every tunnel, armament and other military infrastructure of Hamas. Hamas and other jihadi yahoos are solely responsible for what is happening in Gaza today. Why is it that West Bank has been quite and relatively peaceful in the last 5 yrs and Gaza continues to be a flashpoint ( at the cost of ordinary Gazans) ?

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 27 Jul 2014 00:14

A_Gupta wrote:New York Magazine
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-all.html
titled: It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

Israel mobilized its forces due to relentless barrage of rockets on its cities/towns. The tunnels were being dug under the border and into Israel which aided incidents like the kidnapping/killing of 3 teens and Gilad Shalit. The tunnels are dug,owned and operated by gangs under the tutelage and approval of Hamas.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 27 Jul 2014 01:21

brihaspati wrote:sarcastic takes that single out the "Hindu" onlee, knowing full well the origins of this sarcasm in brits mocking the Hindu and his "dhoti" is reprehensible. As if pyjamas, churidars, and trousers didnt shake in fear or cowardice! But associating that "dhoti" with fear/cowardice is a double insult as, most of our freedom fighters who bravely faced Brit sadism, did so in dhoti.

Your conclusion that by using that I somehow meant what you comprehend is an insult to me saar.

brihaspati wrote:You are smoothly now dropping one of your gloating that you see GOI action as "not bending over backwards to please a foreign nation". Logically, if not voting for, or not abstaining, is "not bending" then voting for, becomes "bending over backward" for the ummah. Do u see your logic means u are not against "bending over backwards" but you want that to happen to correct identities?

I don't see this vote agaisnt Israel as "bending over backwards" at all. You said that being absent is also bending over backwards then why did many western nations who support Israel bended backwards to support ummah by being absent ??? The resolution doesn't glorify Jihad in any way and neither it is binding and to hell with identities I want India to become economically and militarily so powerful that we can show two finger salute to UN whenever we want too but this is going to take time and I am willing to be patient till then.

brihaspati wrote:What India/GOI can do to recover territories it lost, or practical steps, is a different issue. This is unrelated to the original connection in that India has failed to do this unlike Russia and China, and therefore the two latter are in a position of proven strength/determination to roll back jihadis, which India was yet to do - and hence the gubo-ing by India is different from that by China/Russia.

No saar it is not a different issue since you are claiming that this vote is equivalent to bending over backwards to ummah. India can only strike at jihadists when it is in a position of power to do so without giving a damn to what UN or anybody has to say about it. The present GoI has hardly been in power for a bit more than two months and we are expecting them to deliver us the world which according to me is a self goal. Atleast give them time to assume power properly, let them spread their tentacles deep into our system so that they can control the reaction of the system when GoI decides to act mercilessly against such break India forces but no we won't allow them any time to do that instead we consistently whine about what a monumental loser we are !!! If that's what we are going to do ultimately each and every time then why even bother about bringing a change in the centre ??? According to me it's simply not fair to this government.

brihaspati wrote:Take the august company India was in ......................................

So they all voted out of ongoing anti-US games, or religious competition, and pro-Islamic views. Is India in any of these categories?

Unlike what you and I believe Israel seems to be pissed with EU as well, read it all I say.

Why nobody but the US voted against the UN’s anti-Israel resolution

Only the United States voted against the resolution. Twenty-nine nations voted in favor, among them not only the usual suspects such as Saudi Arabia, Algeria and South Africa, but also some ostensible friends of Israel, including Russia, Kenya, India and Mexico.

Equally hurtful for Israel, if not more so, were the abstentions of the eight European Union member states who had the right to vote: Austria, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Romania and the United Kingdom.

Yes, even the Czech Republic, which in November 2012 was the only EU country to oppose granting the Palestinians nonmember state status at the UN, did not vote against a resolution that denounces Israel for “disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks, including aerial bombardment of civilian areas, the targeting of civilians and civilian properties in collective punishment contrary to international law, and other actions, including the targeting of medical and humanitarian personnel, that may amount to international crimes.” The resolution does not mention Hamas once.

“If the UK feels so strongly that the resolution is not fair, why did they not vote against it?” a senior Israeli official fumed. More than one government promised to oppose the draft and later instructed its ambassador to vote in favor, the official added. The foreign minister of the Philippines, for instance, personally promised a no-vote, but eventually the country voted yes, he said.

Israel expects more from the EU, observers in Jerusalem suggested. “I’m disillusioned and disappointed that they and others abstained, when they know full well what the real situation is,” said Alan Baker, a former legal adviser to Israel’s Foreign Ministry. “It’s a two-faced political viewpoint, wholly based on economic and other interests, fully ignoring the truth and the facts.”

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 27 Jul 2014 01:49

Ambar wrote: If Israel wants to hold land as a barter for stopping rocket attacks, then so be it. In my opinion, as costly as urban wars are, Israel must not agree for a cease fire. Israel must go on and destroy every tunnel, armament and other military infrastructure of Hamas. Hamas and other jihadi yahoos are solely responsible for what is happening in Gaza today.

I agree with you absolutely about this point, Ambar-ji.

Why is it that West Bank has been quite and relatively peaceful in the last 5 yrs and Gaza continues to be a flashpoint ( at the cost of ordinary Gazans) ?

West Bank is relatively quiet because the Hamas wants a supply route for the UN and other charitable organisations' aid materials that the Gazans don't get. Also, a West Bank in the hands of the soft jihadis, i.e., Abbas, lets the Hamas pretend that there is something for Israel to hope for. And lastly, the ordinary Gazans don't matter one whit to the Hamas, which is why I have some doubts about the efficacy of the current campaign. Everything that the Israelis can destroy in Gaza, the Hamas can replace in six months and the situation will be back to square one. I have my doubts about the ability of the Israelis to hold territory in the Gaza strip - there will be an almighty furore and Israel may not have the political power or will to withstand it. A better way might be to begin an assassination campaign of the financiers of terror sitting in Qatar, Saudi and Iran (but then, even previous assassination campaigns have failed miserably - see `Operation Wrath of God' and `Operation Spring of Youth' ). So, it is a bad situation in which they just have to survive.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2014 02:48

Sagar G wrote: I don't see this vote agaisnt Israel as "bending over backwards" at all. You said that being absent is also bending over backwards then why did many western nations who support Israel bended backwards to support ummah by being absent ??? The resolution doesn't glorify Jihad in any way and neither it is binding and to hell with identities I want India to become economically and militarily so powerful that we can show two finger salute to UN whenever we want too but this is going to take time and I am willing to be patient till then.

It was u who claimed voting against Israel was "not bending over backwards to Israel" , I didnt bring in the expression. So logically to your theory, voting "for" Ummah, must be "bending over backwards to ummah".

No saar it is not a different issue since you are claiming that this vote is equivalent to bending over backwards to ummah. India can only strike at jihadists when it is in a position of power to do so without giving a damn to what UN or anybody has to say about it. The present GoI has hardly been in power for a bit more than two months and we are expecting them to deliver us the world which according to me is a self goal. Atleast give them time to assume power properly, let them spread their tentacles deep into our system so that they can control the reaction of the system when GoI decides to act mercilessly against such break India forces but no we won't allow them any time to do that instead we consistently whine about what a monumental loser we are !!! If that's what we are going to do ultimately each and every time then why even bother about bringing a change in the centre ??? According to me it's simply not fair to this government.

Again u are avoiding the context of my pointer: you repeatedly tried to justify GOI action by the action of Russia/China. And I pointed out that their seeming "bending" will not be taken as (by Islamists) as a sign of weakness/"bending" since thes two have thrashed out jihadis in their own areas, and even expanded territorially, militarily. When you have the power to thrash, proven track record, your nod to the rascal will be a token magnanimity from position of overwhelming strength : when the rascal repeatedly thrashes you, and u either barely defend yourself, or have to stand and watch as the rascal safely goes back to a safe distance after thrashing you and then mocks you, but you dare not go out chasing after him - your gracious nod to the rascal is a sign of weakness, and will be interpreted as a desperate gesture of appeasement.

The compromise solution would have been abstaining.

Unlike what you and I believe Israel seems to be pissed with EU as well, read it all I say.
Why nobody but the US voted against the UN’s anti-Israel resolution

Only the United States voted against the resolution. Twenty-nine nations voted in favor, among them not only the usual suspects such as Saudi Arabia, Algeria and South Africa, but also some ostensible friends of Israel, including Russia, Kenya, India and Mexico.

Equally hurtful for Israel, if not more so, were the abstentions of the eight European Union member states who had the right to vote: Austria, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Romania and the United Kingdom.

Yes, even the Czech Republic, which in November 2012 was the only EU country to oppose granting the Palestinians nonmember state status at the UN, did not vote against a resolution that denounces Israel for “disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks, including aerial bombardment of civilian areas, the targeting of civilians and civilian properties in collective punishment contrary to international law, and other actions, including the targeting of medical and humanitarian personnel, that may amount to international crimes.” The resolution does not mention Hamas once.

“If the UK feels so strongly that the resolution is not fair, why did they not vote against it?” a senior Israeli official fumed. More than one government promised to oppose the draft and later instructed its ambassador to vote in favor, the official added. The foreign minister of the Philippines, for instance, personally promised a no-vote, but eventually the country voted yes, he said.

Israel expects more from the EU, observers in Jerusalem suggested. “I’m disillusioned and disappointed that they and others abstained, when they know full well what the real situation is,” said Alan Baker, a former legal adviser to Israel’s Foreign Ministry. “It’s a two-faced political viewpoint, wholly based on economic and other interests, fully ignoring the truth and the facts.”

Where did I make any statement that I believed Israel was dancing with joy at EU behaviour? EU abstention is relatively painful for Israel as they expected more by tradition. If a lot of countries are de facto whitewashing Hamas, does it justify India doing so? What is the connection of other countries going in favour of Hamas and Palestinian jihad, to India doing the same? I also gave a rough country-based breakup and identified the ideological positions. I asked you to give which of those motivations in these countries that voted against, do you think fits India. You havent touched those issues.

I thought you wanted India to decide "independent" of foreign nations in foreign policy - so why are you trying to justify Indian action by action of foreign nations?

PS: dhoti - yes is an issue I will draw attention to everytime its solely pinned to cowardice/fear. Whoever shows continued lack of awareness of its long cultural iconography, especially in the freedom movement, even after being pointed out - is defacto siding with a racist foreign nation's culture and its hatred of the hindu as a religion and as a culture. I will oppose it wherever I see it.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 27 Jul 2014 06:22

Israeli army is supposed to be one of the best in the world and one of the best equipped. Israeli intelligence is considered "the" best in the world.

Now consider this.

1. The Israelis were completely taken by surprise by the sophistication and extensive tunneling system that Hamas built in Gaza, or underneath Gaza. The "best intelligence service" in the world completely missed the extent of this tunneling.

2. After almost 20 days of operations, the Israelis still have not identified most of the tunnels and failed to destroy most of the ones that they have been able to identify

3. The Israelis are still limiting their demands to be allowed to continue operations until they have destroyed "those tunnels that extend into Israel", as that poses a direct danger to Israelis

4. The Islamists have done it again. They have again (after Hezbollah did in 2006), figured out a way to checkmate one of the best armies and the best equipped armies in the world. Hardcore Hamas Islamists and fighters are safely hiding in the tunnels or have left the country using those tunnels, while Israel is killing either very low level operatives or civilians, inviting condemnation from around the world, and badly losing the political and propoganda war in a geo-political sense. This despite, for the first time, most of the Arab States, including Saudi Arabia rooting for Israel.

5. This demonstrates that human beings can pretty much achieve anything, if they put their minds to it. They can beat overwhelming odds. Hamas as shown it again. The Islamists are single minded in brutality, in warfare and in their ability to take massive casualties. They eat, live, breathe, sleep, violence. Therefore, they are extremely good at it.

6. This should give pause to all the underestimating Paki and tendency in this forum to belittle or mock PAki's military potency and their ability to be an existential threat to the Hindus. Given our history of the past 1000 years, and continuing Paki aggression and basically Paki victories in their asymmetrical war against the Hindus in the past 60 years, and particularly given that Paki managed to acquire nuclear weapons over the past 30 years, I am amazed how much hubris we have in this forum, vis-a-vis the Pakis, who are nothing but a forward brigade of the larger Islamic expansionist force.

7. It is the Israelis today, who are more demoralized and are looking for a way out of the mess that they got themselves into than Hamas, which does not seem to be in any urgency to seek a ceasefire and is imposing conditions like a victor in war, such as getting their border crossings opened and the blockade being lifted etc.

8. We Hindus as a people better take this Islamist threat to us, far far more seriously, than we have taken it, exorcise any and all bad habits and tendencies that we have developed over the years, brush off the cobwebs real fast, clean ourselves up of all the corruption that has made home deep inside of us and get ready to make a successful "last stand", against this continuous Islamic expansion over the past 1000 years or so and which is getting more virulent with the passing of every day now and preserve ourselves as a people and as a culture. We can do well to take this up on a war footing, and discuss everything else later,,,,,,,,,,all our relative superiority of thought over Western universalism will have no meaning if we cease to exist as a culture, and let us not forget, we are already living in a highly abbreviated culture and geography compared to what we were and both our culture and geography is shrinking fast, even as we mock everybody, the Islamists, the Chinese, the West, the Arabs........is there anyone we dont mock ?

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 27 Jul 2014 12:16

^^^

errrrrrr....

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 27 Jul 2014 12:32

An old news item about GPR use to detect tunnels in Gaza

Prolly Hamas learned from that campaign and dug itself deep - literally. Here's a new article on the Hamas tunnels. I guess only bunker busters can work and those are a no-no given population density and quality of buildings and structures there.

PS: Anyone play Command & Conquer: Generals? Them GLA tunnel networks were a *****!

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 27 Jul 2014 15:58

brihaspati wrote:It was u who claimed voting against Israel was "not bending over backwards to Israel" , I didnt bring in the expression. So logically to your theory, voting "for" Ummah, must be "bending over backwards to ummah".

I have also said that I don't see this vote against Israel as a vote for ummah or jihad and neither does the resolution says so though it's strongly worded against Israel but it also calls for ending violence against Israeli civilians as well but since you are selectively reading and picking up points according to your convenience hence you keep coming back to the same thing again and again. The link in my previous post has the link to the resolution.

brihaspati wrote:Again u are avoiding the context of my pointer: you repeatedly tried to justify GOI action by the action of Russia/China. And I pointed out that their seeming "bending" will not be taken as (by Islamists) as a sign of weakness/"bending" since thes two have thrashed out jihadis in their own areas, and even expanded territorially, militarily. When you have the power to thrash, proven track record, your nod to the rascal will be a token magnanimity from position of overwhelming strength : when the rascal repeatedly thrashes you, and u either barely defend yourself, or have to stand and watch as the rascal safely goes back to a safe distance after thrashing you and then mocks you, but you dare not go out chasing after him - your gracious nod to the rascal is a sign of weakness, and will be interpreted as a desperate gesture of appeasement.

You are again concluding wrong I have repeatedly asked that why is India being singled out to receive your ire when the entire non ummah setup has also done the same blunder.

Based on your conclusions about great Russian and Chinese wins against jihadis I asked you to suggest practical steps which the current GoI can take so as to do the same things because then we will also be in a position of power no (which I would love India to be in). You sidestepped it and said that it's a different issue but consistently trying to show India in poor light for not doing those same things !!!

You cannot hold the current GoI guilty for inaction of the last setup especially when they have been in power for two months only.

brihaspati wrote:The compromise solution would have been abstaining.

Even by not doing so doesn't mean that GoI is going to back down against Islamist forces and moves like these show it's intent.

Union Minister of State for Youth Affairs and Sports Sarbananda Sonowal today said that the Centre had till now released Rs 144 crore to Assam for updating the National Register of Citizens (NRC) following a Supreme Court directive in 2006.

"The Supreme Court had asked the state government in 2006 to expedite the process of detection and deportation of illegal Bangladeshi nationals residing in Assam through the Foreigners' Tribunals. The Congress-led governments, both at the state and Centre, however, did nothing much," Sonowal told reporters here.

brihaspati wrote:Where did I make any statement that I believed Israel was dancing with joy at EU behaviour? EU abstention is relatively painful for Israel as they expected more by tradition. If a lot of countries are de facto whitewashing Hamas, does it justify India doing so? What is the connection of other countries going in favour of Hamas and Palestinian jihad, to India doing the same?

The resolution states nothing as you try and paint it to be if you think otherwise please point out the specific section in there which are in favour of Hamas and Palestinian jihad or make a call for the same.

brihaspati wrote:I also gave a rough country-based breakup and identified the ideological positions. I asked you to give which of those motivations in these countries that voted against, do you think fits India. You havent touched those issues.

Well their wasn't a huge list to choose from all you gave was

brihaspati wrote:So they all voted out of ongoing anti-US games, or religious competition, and pro-Islamic views. Is India in any of these categories?

Since we don't fit the second and third choice hence the only one left to pick is first one.

brihaspati wrote:I thought you wanted India to decide "independent" of foreign nations in foreign policy - so why are you trying to justify Indian action by action of foreign nations?

I have already answered this multiple times.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 27 Jul 2014 16:22

brihaspati wrote:But more importantly, where in my post am I lamenting of fearing potential disruption to "wide ranging interactions"? I had posted consistently on the impact of voting with a spectrum of international mobilization that is covering up the jihadi content, drive, intent of the Palestinian jihad that India has ended up siding with - since the proposal was drafted by these jihadis, and being supported by a range of international forces connected to jihadi religious and financial interests. Palestine is consistently and will increasingly be connected to Kashmir by Islamists, and for all the chest-thumping confidence here declaring that there is no cooenction/attempt at connecting the two will prove to be false. Those shouting about consistency strangely don't realize that as and when the growing jihadi political clout (as seen in GOI bending over backwards to not want to be seen as displeasing it) does establish connection in exactly similar fashion as it legitimized Palestinian jihad internationally - this very same Indian siding with Palestinian jihad will go against any Indian contention on J&K.

Palestine Ambassador To Pakistan: ‘Kashmiris And Palestinians Are One’
http://voiceofeast.org/2014/07/18/pales ... nians-one/

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2014 18:08

We have not had the Israeli media viewpoint if I am right anywhere thus far. Here is a Haaretz Opinion on the antics of one we know only too well."Jokerry",the buffoon who masquerades as the US's secretary of State,who promised a Middle East "peace" within 12 months a year ago. The same man you may also recollect who advocated "unbelievably small" attacks on Syria,which he couldn't deliver upon!

Haaretz (!) Slams Kerry
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/haa ... 97432.html

Writing in Haaretz (Israel's New York Times, but further left), Barak Ravid, unquestionably a man of the left, turns on John Kerry. Read the whole thing, but here are highlights:

The draft Kerry passed to Israel on Friday shocked the cabinet ministers not only because it was the opposite of what Kerry told them less than 24 hours earlier, but mostly because it might as well have been penned by Khaled Meshal. It was everything Hamas could have hoped for.

The document recognized Hamas' position in the Gaza Strip, promised the organization billions in donation funds and demanded no dismantling of rockets, tunnels or other heavy weaponry at Hamas' disposal. The document placed Israel and Hamas on the same level, as if the first is not a primary U.S. ally and as if the second isn't a terror group which overtook part of the Palestinian Authority in a military coup and fired thousands of rockets at Israel....

The secretary of state's draft empowered the most radical and problematic elements in the region – Qatar, Turkey, and Hamas – and was a slap on the face to the rapidly forming camp of Egypt, Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates, who have many shared interests. What Kerry's draft spells for the internal Palestinian political arena is even direr: It crowns Hamas and issues Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas with a death warrant....

If Kerry did anything on Friday it was to thwart the possibility of reaching a cease-fire in Gaza. Instead of promoting a cease-fire, Kerry pushed it away. If this failed diplomatic attempt leads Israel to escalate its operation in Gaza, the American secretary of state will be responsible for every additional drop of blood that is spilled.

More by William Kristol
These words come from the heart of the peace camp in Israel. They come from one of President Obama's strongest defenders in Israel. And they present to Barack Obama this question: How do you ask an Israeli--or a Palestinian--to die for John Kerry's mistakes? Surely it's time for John Kerry to go.

Israel's slick media campaign.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 30765.html

Patrick Cockburn
Sunday 27 July 2014
Israel-Gaza conflict: The secret report that helps Israelis to hide facts
World View: The slickness of Israel's spokesmen is rooted in directions set down by pollster Frank Luntz

Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed.

There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those "who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel".

Every one of the 112 pages in the booklet is marked "not for distribution or publication" and it is easy to see why. The Luntz report, officially entitled "The Israel project's 2009 Global Language Dictionary, was leaked almost immediately to Newsweek Online, but its true importance has seldom been appreciated. It should be required reading for everybody, especially journalists, interested in any aspect of Israeli policy because of its "dos and don'ts" for Israeli spokesmen.

These are highly illuminating about the gap between what Israeli officials and politicians really believe, and what they say, the latter shaped in minute detail by polling to determine what Americans want to hear. Certainly, no journalist interviewing an Israeli spokesman should do so without reading this preview of many of the themes and phrases employed by Mr Regev and his colleagues.

Mark Regev Mark Regev The booklet is full of meaty advice about how they should shape their answers for different audiences. For example, the study says that "Americans agree that Israel 'has a right to defensible borders'. But it does you no good to define exactly what those borders should be. Avoid talking about borders in terms of pre- or post-1967, because it only serves to remind Americans of Israel's military history. Particularly on the left this does you harm. For instance, support for Israel's right to defensible borders drops from a heady 89 per cent to under 60 per cent when you talk about it in terms of 1967."

How about the right of return for Palestinian refugees who were expelled or fled in 1948 and in the following years, and who are not allowed to go back to their homes? Here Dr Luntz has subtle advice for spokesmen, saying that "the right of return is a tough issue for Israelis to communicate effectively because much of Israeli language sounds like the 'separate but equal' words of the 1950s segregationists and the 1980s advocates of Apartheid. The fact is, Americans don't like, don't believe and don't accept the concept of 'separate but equal'."

So how should spokesmen deal with what the booklet admits is a tough question? They should call it a "demand", on the grounds that Americans don't like people who make demands. "Then say 'Palestinians aren't content with their own state. Now they're demanding territory inside Israel'." Other suggestions for an effective Israeli response include saying that the right of return might become part of a final settlement "at some point in the future".

Dr Luntz notes that Americans as a whole are fearful of mass immigration into the US, so mention of "mass Palestinian immigration" into Israel will not go down well with them. If nothing else works, say that the return of Palestinians would "derail the effort to achieve peace".

The Luntz report was written in the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 and January 2009, when 1,387 Palestinians and nine Israelis were killed.

There is a whole chapter on "isolating Iran-backed Hamas as an obstacle to peace". Unfortunately, come the current Operation Protective Edge, which began on 6 July, there was a problem for Israeli propagandists because Hamas had quarrelled with Iran over the war in Syria and had no contact with Tehran. Friendly relations have been resumed only in the past few days – thanks to the Israeli invasion.

Frank Luntz Frank Luntz Much of Dr Luntz's advice is about the tone and presentation of the Israeli case. He says it is absolutely crucial to exude empathy for Palestinians: "Persuadables [sic] won't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Show Empathy for BOTH sides!" This may explain why a number of Israeli spokesman are almost lachrymose about the plight of Palestinians being pounded by Israeli bombs and shells.

In a sentence in bold type, underlined and with capitalisation, Dr Luntz says that Israeli spokesmen or political leaders must never, ever justify "the deliberate slaughter of innocent women and children" and they must aggressively challenge those who accuse Israel of such a crime. Israeli spokesmen struggled to be true to this prescription when 16 Palestinians were killed in a UN shelter in Gaza last Thursday.

There is a list of words and phrases to be used and a list of those to be avoided. Schmaltz is at a premium: "The best way, the only way, to achieve lasting peace is to achieve mutual respect." Above all, Israel's desire for peace with the Palestinians should be emphasised at all times because this what Americans overwhelmingly want to happen. But any pressure on Israel to actually make peace can be reduced by saying "one step at a time, one day at a time", which will be accepted as "a commonsense approach to the land-for-peace equation".

Dr Luntz cites as an example of an "effective Israeli sound bite" one which reads: "I particularly want to reach out to Palestinian mothers who have lost their children. No parent should have to bury their child."

The study admits that the Israeli government does not really want a two-state solution, but says this should be masked because 78 per cent of Americans do. Hopes for the economic betterment of Palestinians should be emphasised.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is quoted with approval for saying that it is "time for someone to ask Hamas: what exactly are YOU doing to bring prosperity to your people". The hypocrisy of this beggars belief: it is the seven-year-old Israeli economic siege that has reduced the Gaza to poverty and misery.

On every occasion, the presentation of events by Israeli spokesmen is geared to giving Americans and Europeans the impression that Israel wants peace with the Palestinians and is prepared to compromise to achieve this, when all the evidence is that it does not. Though it was not intended as such, few more revealing studies have been written about modern Israel in times of war and peace.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2014 18:16

Some Israeli media headlines and opinions.
Haretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion

Now is the time for diplomacy
To reach an effective cease-fire Israel will have to ease its blockade on Gaza.
By Haaretz Editorial | Jul 27, 2014

Saturday’s humanitarian cease-fire, which began as a 12-hour agreement with a short extension option, afforded both Israel and the Gaza Strip a vital time-out. Not only to relax a little from the rockets and shells, to collect the bodies and to deal with necessities; it also reminded both sides of just how important it is to find a way to extend it and make it permanent.

Israel has lost more than 40 soldiers and officers, and three civilians, while the death toll in Gaza has surpassed 1,000, the majority of them innocent civilians. The destruction in the Strip is enormous, and in both Israel and Gaza a feeling of insecurity has become a way of life. In addition, over the past few days the war in Gaza has spread to the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and it threatens to ignite a wider uprising.

Israel does not want to reoccupy the Gaza Strip or to remain there long-term. Its aims, at least according to what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said publicly, are still limited: to destroy the tunnels that lead into Israel and to stop the rocket fire. The former is apparently nearing completion. The latter is far from it and presumably cannot be achieved in the current military operation.

Given these circumstances, the only possible conclusion is that this war must move from the theater of operations to the negotiating table, and those who sought the vaunted “victory picture” will have to settle for the restoration of long-term calm and the destruction of the so-called terror tunnels. In the absence of an all-encompassing negotiating process that would produce a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, that is a significant accomplishment.

The diplomatic efforts being orchestrated by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry are indeed aimed at achieving the possible under the circumstances. Not a decisive political victory of one side, but rather a defined, agreed-upon and effective cease-fire. In order to reach it, Israel will have to soften its stance on its blockade of the Gaza Strip. Such a move would not be a concession to Hamas, but rather a reconnection of the oxygen tube that will make it possible for the territory’s 1.8 million inhabitants to breathe freely and live normal lives.

Israel, which has always claimed that it is not at war with Gaza’s citizens, does not have the right to turn the brutal blockade – which has not proved its effectiveness – into a political weapon. The reopening of the Rafah border crossing, which is controlled by Egypt, should also be reached by agreement. The terms and conditions for lifting the blockade and opening the crossing can be negotiated, but the principle should be set down now, in order to give the negotiators a vital tool for their efforts to get the Israel Defense Forces out of the Strip.

Protest against the Gaza operation, Tel Aviv, July 26, 2014.

Pentagon expert: Getting rid of Hamas will only make things worse
By Phil Stewart | 3
Four must-read articles on John Kerry's failed efforts at an Israel-Hamas cease-fire

Jerusalem Post:
http://www.jpost.com/
Operation Protective Edge - Day 20
Poll: 86.5% of Israelis oppose cease-fire
According to poll sponsor, survey appears to show that, should Netanyahu choose to end Operation Protective Edge at this time, he would be confronting the overwhelming majority of the nation.

Livni tells Kerry his cease-fire proposal 'completely unacceptable' for Israel
Justice Minister tells US secretary of state that his one week truce proposal would strengthen extremists in region.

Hamas's drone and rocket development chief killed in IAF strike
Strike represents a blow to the armament program of Hamas's military wing, particularly to advanced weapons and drones, Shin Bet states.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 27 Jul 2014 23:30

This appears to be an aerial video by the IDF of Hamas fighters using the ceasefire to have sex... with a goat.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=14 ... =2&theater

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jul 2014 23:51

SanjayC wrote:This appears to be an aerial video by the IDF of Hamas fighters using the ceasefire to have sex... with a goat.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=14 ... =2&theater

A little R&R never hurt anyone and probably also tenderizes the meat

No wonder the fakers were keen on a cease fire.