Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

[Arjun]

^^^ Not Jew-bashing. Unsecularized Abrahamics are a threat to everyone around them, period - Christians, Muslims, Jews.

Haredi Jews certainly seem to be an imminent threat to Jewish IQ levels - but interestingly, represent less of a military threat to the Arabs than do the secularized Jews: The Haredi Jews Confront the Militarized Secular Zionist State

Even before the forcible imposition (‘founding’) of the state of Israel , the Haredim were opposed to Zionism. Today the vast majority of Haredim in Israel remain staunchly opposed to the Zionist state for religious, ethical and political reasons. Haredi religious teaching claims that the Jewish people are bound by three oaths: (1) not to settle in Israel by using force or violence, (2) not to make war with other nations and (3) not to act as if the other nations of the world would persecute Israel .

Haredim opposed Israel ’s violent ethnic cleaning of over 850,000 Palestinians in the course of establishing the Israeli State and continues to oppose Israeli settlers’ violently land grabs against Palestinians. Unlike other so-called ‘ultra-Orthodox’ sects, who support Zionist colonialism and bless the Israeli military, the Haredim maintain that militarism corrupts the spirit and that Zionists have transformed Jews from righteous followers of the Torah into rabid ethnocentric supporters of a militarist state. For the Haredim, ‘state worship’, especially the waving of the Israeli flag in the temple, is a sacrilege comparable to the renegade Jews condemned by Moses for worshipping the Golden Calf.

[SSridhar]

DAWN editorial on the change of heart by the Punjabi Taliban.

Dangerous Possibilities

In certain national security circles, the renunciation of violence inside Pakistan by the leader of the TTP Punjab aka the Punjabi Taliban, Asmatullah Muawiya, will be greeted with satisfaction, even glee.

Luring the Punjabi Taliban back towards the mainstream of society and politics has been a long-term goal of a section of the Pakistani security establishment; the thinking being that the former allies of the security establishment are merely misguided and can be persuaded to lay down their arms and lead peaceful existences again.

From here, it would hardly be a surprise to see Muawiya being propped up for a political role, the route of former jihadis into politics being a well-trodden one now, including the likes of Fazlur Rehman Khalil, Hafiz Saeed, Malik Ishaq and Masood Azhar.

At the very least, the next Difa-i-Pakistan Council agglomeration can look forward to recruiting Muawiya to whatever cause is deemed worthy of agitation next.

Whether or not Muawiya and his companions do end up making the journey from violent militants to respectable citizens, it is really the thinking of the Pakistani security establishment that needs to be scrutinised.

The Punjabi Taliban are essentially Kashmir-centric and sectarian militants who turned their ire on Pakistan itself after then-Gen Pervez Musharraf put the security establishment’s jihad policy into cold storage and even banned many of the groups that the Pakistani state had long patronised.

Some of the worst attacks against sectarian targets and the security apparatus have been carried out by the Punjabi Taliban over the years.

The Punjabi Taliban are a very different breed of militants as compared to, say, the Fata TTP, whose origins and, arguably, even present motivations are largely tied to the army’s presence in the tribal areas.

The Punjabi Taliban are ideologically committed militants who believe in a global jihad complex, which is why their announcement of ending their so-called armed struggle inside Pakistan has left the door open to armed struggle being waged outside Pakistan.

Satisfaction then at the latest development in the world of militancy here can only mean one thing: the policy of good militant/bad militant continues and the security establishment continues to see some kind of a significant role for the religious right and good militants in the national discourse.

That is deeply troubling because it suggests that no lessons have been learned, and it sets the stage for even greater problems down the road.

By seeking to mainstream rabid ideologues wedded to violence and the overthrow of the Pakistani state, the security establishment is creating a pincer in which the state and society will eventually be caught: on the one side the armed militants who refuse to give up violence; on the other the political militant handed a ticket to mainstream society and politics.

Surely, that is a pincer that no state or society can survive for very long.

Everything that Muawiya and his ilk stand for is in direct opposition to what Pakistan ought to be. It is a ruinous strategy that seeks to empower them further.

[ramana]

64 years ago on 17 September 1950, India recognized Israel.

Incidentally this info was tweeted on NaMo's 64th birthday!!!!

[Agnimitra]

Jerusalem Post:
Militant Islam – can it be turned to advantage?

Based on the current determination on all sides to defeat IS, Netanyahu is proposing an alliance between Israel and those Arab states opposed to militant Islamists.

[JE Menon]

Can it? Bloody hell it must be... As repeatedly mentioned on BRF, there is no better tool for control over the Islamic World than Islam itself. And all it needs is real patience and understanding over the long term, plus tactical ability and the readiness to get scratched now and then.

[arun]

India-Israel diplomatic interactions on the sidelines of UNGA.

Prime Ministers of both countries meet on Sept. 28 and diplomatic interactions follow on with a meeting of both countries Foreign Ministers on Oct. 1:

PM Netanyahu meets with Indian PM Narendra Modi

FM Liberman meets with Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj

[sunnyP]

I hope that a state visit materialises soon.

The usual anti-national suspects in India will be frothing at the mouth when Modi visits Israel.

[Ranjani Brow]

Modi visiting a terrorist a nation? I can see no wrong.

[Shanmukh]

Yindoo Yehudi evil alliance (TM) update.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.618211

Two right wing nutcases, both plotting the end of Islam. Leftists must be having nightmares.

[SaiK]

India offers $4 million for Gaza reconstruction

and they will bomb the helluva place to $4b loss, and will ask again?

what for these money? let us redirect those money to help the poor of the desh! come on!

[bharats]

ISRAEL TO DELIVER 49 DRONES TO INDIA TO KEEP AN EYE ON CHINA AND PAKISTAN
by AWR HAWKINS
Link: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014 ... a-Pakistan

Recently, the Northern Command of the Indian Army purchased 49 aerial drones from Israel to monitor the border region separating India from China and Pakistan. According to Pakistan Today (PT), "The Indian Army will deploy the drones to carry out reconnaissance mission[s] over its disputed border areas after 50 soldiers from China's People's Liberation Army were found setting up camp in the remote region of eastern Ladakh, which is also claimed by India, on the night of April 15." Breitbart News previously reported alleged Chinese troop incursions into Ladakh in mid-August. And The Times of India reported that "nearly 1,000 Chinese soldiers" entered the region on September 18 and "refused to go back" once inside the country. Purchasing drones from Israel is meant to combat this, and PT reports that they are expected be "game changers" in the "territorial dispute with China." In addition to the drone acquisition, India has assembled a "72,000-strong Mountain Strike Corp ... to prevent a potential Chinese attack." Indian Air Force cargo planes have also been landing at Daulat Beg Oldi, "the world's highest airstrip" located in Ladakh.

[A_Gupta]

Border protection technology:
http://m.economictimes.com/news/politic ... 076641.cms

[Haresh]

Under Modi’s watch, India edges closer to Israel

http://www.thenational.ae/world/india/u ... -to-israel

India Deepens Bilateral Cooperation with Israel

http://www.india-briefing.com/news/indi ... 9316.html/

[sunnyP]

The Israeli government certainly don't mess around.

JERUSALEM - Israel's prime minister has ordered authorities to destroy the homes of the attackers who killed four people in a Jerusalem synagogue.

Benjamin Netanyahu also ordered the demolition of homes of Palestinians involved in other recent deadly attacks.

Netanyahu announced the directive Tuesday after a meeting with top security officials. He did not say when the demolitions would take place.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jerusalem-s ... destroyed/

Under normal circumstances this sounds excessive but Israelis do not live under normal circumstances. This will send a message to all potential terrorists and will at least make some of them think twice before attacking Israelis.

[Philip]

This is a diabolic crime and the ME madness fully on display.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/n ... -synagogue
Four killed in attack on Jerusalem synagogue

•Palestinians armed with cleavers and gun attack synagogue
•Three victims were US-Israeli citizens, one a UK-Israeli citizen
•Netanyahu vows to ‘respond with a heavy hand’
•Hamas praises attack as response to ‘Israeli crimes’

Four Israelis were killed and eight more wounded in a frenzied assault by two Palestinian men on Jewish worshippers praying at a Jerusalem synagogue in the most lethal incident in the city in years.

The two assailants who launched their attack with meat cleavers and a gun during early morning prayers were then killed by police officers in the ensuing gun battle at the scene of the attack.

The deaths occurred as the two men – identified by family members as cousins Ghassan and Uday Abu Jamal from the East Jerusalem district of Jabal Mukaber – burst into the Bnei Torah synagogue in Har Nof, an ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighbourhood of West Jerusalem.

Three of the victims held dual US-Israeli citizenship, and one was a British-Israeli citizen – 68-year-old Avraham Shmuel Goldberg, who emigrated to Israel from the UK in 1993.

The three US citizens were 59-year-old Moshe Twersky – the head of an English speaking religious college – Aryeh Kopinsky, 43, and Kalman Ze’ev Levine, 55. The grandson of one of the founders of the Modern Orthodox movement, Twersky lived close to the scene of the attack in Har Nof.

HEARTBREAKING: Rosh Yeshiva Kollel Toras Moshe Rabbi Moshe Twersky HY"D killed in todays Jerusalem terror attack. pic.twitter.com/hhqj30xlO2
— Israel News Feed (@IsraelHatzolah) November 18, 2014
Witnesses including worshippers, residents and a first-aider who entered the synagogue while the attack was continuing, described a chaotic and bloody scene as police and the attackers engaged in a shootout at the building’s entrance.

Akiva Pollack, a paramedic who was one of the first on the scene, told the Guardian he had entered the synagogue to be confronted by an individual covered in blood.

“He said he had been shot but when he took his shirt off it was covered in deep cuts. I tried to treat him, but then I heard shooting nearby.”

Dragging one of the injured from the synagogue he reached the exit to see a policeman shot. “I tried to help him. I intubated him but he was badly wounded.”

Another medical volunteer who arrived early on the scene was Joyce Morel. She told Haaretz newspaper: “The gentleman I tended to first still had his tefillin on. There were also women there who didn’t know where their husbands were, and others who didn’t know where their father was. Those were most likely the ones killed. It was very hard to deal with, very upsetting.”


Ultra-orthodox Jews watch emergency personnel clean up and secure the area of the attack.
Ultra-orthodox Jews watch emergency personnel clean up and secure the area of the attack. Photograph: JACK GUEZ/AFP/Getty Images

A man who identified himself only as Yossi and was in the synagogue at the time of the attack, told Channel 2: “The police arrived and surrounded the entrance and then the terrorist ran out and they shot him. There was wild gunfire. People ran out of the synagogue. It was hell.”

“I tried to escape. The man with the knife approached me. There was a chair and table between us ... my prayer shawl got caught. I left it there and escaped.”

Yosef Posternak, who was also praying in the synagogue at the time of the attack, told Israel Radio that about 25 worshippers were inside when the attackers entered.

“I looked up and saw someone shooting people at point-blank range. Then someone came in with what looked like a butcher’s knife and he went wild.” He added: “I saw people lying on the floor, blood everywhere. People were trying to fight with [the attackers] but they didn’t have much of a chance,” he said.

Pictures posted by an Israeli army spokesman showed a man in a Jewish prayer shawl lying dead, a bloodied butcher’s cleaver discarded on the floor and several overturned prayer tables.
Yakov Cohen, a 60-year-old pensioner who lives in an apartment block opposite the synagogue and had been preparing to go and pray himself, described seeing the gun battle.

Footage of Israeli police firing on the Palestinian attackers from a witness

“I was getting ready to go down and pray myself. My wife had gone out for a walk,” he told the Guardian. “She called to tell me there was shooting and to stay at home.

“I saw armed police at the door of the synagogue and then heard one of them shout: ‘He’s getting ready to come out.’ An Arab came out of the building – a man in his 30s – the police shot him as he came out.”

The attack is bound to ratchet up fears of sustained violence in the city, already on edge amid soaring tensions over a contested holy site.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a militant group, said the cousins were its members. A PFLP statement did not specify whether the group instructed the cousins to carry out the attack. Hamas, the militant Palestinian group that runs the Gaza Strip, also praised the attack.

Alleged terrorists, cousins Ghassan and Uday Abu Jamal, residents of Jabel Mukaber. One of them worked in the supermarket adjacent to the synagogue
Ghassan and Uday Abu Jamal, residents of Jabel Mukaber. Photograph: News Pictures/Rex

Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, vowed that Israel would “respond harshly” to the attack, describing it as a “cruel murder of Jews who came to pray and were killed by despicable murderers”.

The US secretary of state, John Kerry, said he spoke to Netanyahu after the assault and denounced it as an “act of pure terror and senseless brutality and violence”.


“Innocent people who had come to worship died in the sanctuary of a synagogue,” Kerry said, his voice quavering.

“They were hatcheted, hacked and murdered in that holy place in an act of pure terror and senseless brutality and murder. I call on Palestinians at every single level of leadership to condemn this in the most powerful terms. This violence has no place anywhere, particularly after the discussion that we just had the other day in Amman.”

Barack Obama called on Palestinian leaders to ask ordinary citizens “to work cooperatively together to lower tensions” in a statement released by the White House. “There is and can be no justification for such attacks against innocent civilians,” the US president said.

The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the attack, the first time he has done so since a recent spike in deadly violence against Israelis began. He also called for an end to Israeli “provocations” surrounding the sacred site.

In a statement, Abbas’s office said he “condemns the killing of the worshippers in a synagogue in west Jerusalem”. The statement called for an end to the “invasion” of the mosque at the holy site and a halt to “incitement” by Israeli ministers.

In a bleak assessment of the recent wave of violence, the Israeli justice minister, Tzipi Livni, told Army Radio that she has long feared that is a becoming a religious war. “And a religious war cannot be solved.”

Jerusalem synagogue attack
Israeli security forces secure the scene after two Palestinians attacked the synagogue. Photograph: GALI TIBBON/AFP/Getty Images

In Jabal Mukaber relatives of the two attackers offered different theories about the motives for the attack, with some linking it to the death of Palestinian bus driver found hanged behind his bus – described by Israeli authorities as a suicide – but widely believed by many palestinians to have been a “lynching”. Other family members, however, blamed recent friction at the Jerusalem holy site known to Muslims as the Noble sanctuary and to Jews as the temple Mount which has been blamed for a rash of deadly violence and clashes.

A cousin of the men, Sufian Abu Jamal, a construction worker aged 40, described it as a “heroic act and the normal reaction of what has been happening to Palestinians in jerusalem and at the Al Aqsa mosque.”

At the house of Uday, “Abu Salah”, an uncle of one of the men said his relatives had been made angry by what they had seen on Facebook and television news reports. “It was a situation ripe for an explosion and that is what happened.”

Tuesday’s attack was the latest in a series of deadly assaults. Five Israelis and a foreign visitor have been deliberately run over and killed or stabbed to death by Palestinians while about a dozen Palestinians have also been killed, including those accused of carrying out those attacks.

Residents trace the violence in Jerusalem to July, when a Palestinian teenager was burned to death by Jewish assailants, an alleged revenge attack for the abduction and killing of three Jewish teens by Palestinian militants in the occupied West Bank.

[krishnan]

A big kick in the rear for this scum bags

Assaf Moran ‏@AssafMoran 4m4 minutes ago

Indian press @IndianExpress @the_hindu and @timesofindia continue the shamful act not calling y'day jerusalem massacre a #Terror attack.

[member_24684]

India a strategic partner, China not there yet: Israel

Despite its burgeoning trade and economic ties with China, Israel doesn't look at Beijing as a strategic partner the way it does at India, its number one buyer of arms, according to top Israeli government sources.

Israeli sources here said that there was no move by Israel to revive arms trade with China. Israel's main political and defence ally, the US, too imposes strict restrictions on supply of arms or any defence technology to China or any other country by Israel. In the case of military cooperation with India though, according to Israeli defence officials, Israel's agreements with the US are not a constraint.

http://defencenews.in/defence-news-inte ... HxkocJE%3D

[anmol]

Under Modi, Israel and India forge deeper business ties
by Ari Rabinovitch and Tova Cohen, in.reuters.com
November 19th 2014 3:35 AM

TEL AVIV (Reuters) - At the U.N. General Assembly in New York last September, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu set aside time for a critical meeting. But it wasn't President Barack Obama he was keen to see. It was Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Since Modi came to power in May, ties between Israel and India have been in overdrive, with the two signing a series of defence and technology deals that have underscored their burgeoning commercial and political relationship.

The same month as the UN meeting, Modi's cabinet cleared a long-delayed purchase of Israeli missiles for its navy. In October, India closed a $520 million deal to buy Israeli anti-tank missiles. And last week, a jointly developed aerial defence system passed a major trial, which India called a "milestone".

"There is great momentum in cooperation, on both the defence and economic sides," Naftali Bennett, Israel's economy minister and a member of Netanyahu's inner cabinet, told Reuters.

India is now the largest buyer of Israeli military equipment, while Israel is India's largest customer after Russia. In the first nine months of 2014, bilateral trade reached $3.4 billion, on target for a record this year.

While that may not be vast in global terms, it has helped push Asia to the brink of overtaking the United States as Israel's largest export market after the European Union.

India is steadily catching up with China as it buys more Israeli defence and cyber-security technology, an area where China is limited since the United States frowns on Israel dealing too freely with Beijing in defence matters.

The roots of the Israel relationship go back to 2006, when Modi was chief minister of Gujarat and visited the region to explore new ideas in irrigation, an area of Israeli expertise.

As a result, India started buying drip-feed technology, said Amnon Ofer, a friend of Modi's and chairman of NaanDanJain Irrigation, formed after India's Jain Irrigation acquired a firm created by two Israeli collective farms.

Under Modi's predecessor, Manmohan Singh, India kept its relationship with Israel under wraps, in part so as not to upset its Muslim minority, said C. Raja Mohan, head of strategic studies at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.

"Cynics in Israel would point out that Delhi was treating Tel Aviv like a mistress - engage in private but refuse to be seen with in public," said Mohan. "The Modi government is having none of that."

The question is where the relationship goes from here. Strategically, Israel is glad to have a rising Asian power as an ally. But for both the focus is really on business.

Israel Ports Co. is partnering India's Cargo Motors to build a deepwater port in Gujarat, and Israel's TowerJazz is teaming up with India's Jaiprakash Associates and IBM with plans to build a $5.6 billion chip plant near Delhi.

At a security conference in Tel Aviv last week, executives from top Indian firms were shopping for systems to secure their pipelines, refineries and other infrastructure.

All the activity has lead to expectations that Israel and India will finalise a free trade agreement in the next year.

"That means trade will double or triple," said Anat Bernstein-Reich, who chairs the Israel-India Chamber of Commerce, an office hoping and preparing for a boom.

(Additional reporting by Sanjeev Miglani in New Delhi; editing by Luke Baker and Janet McBride)

[ramana]

Rajamohan needs to keep his secular ideas out of foreign affairs.

[Tuvaluan]

Rajamohan needs to keep his secular ideas out of foreign affairs.

I have met rajmohan in person, and IMHO, he is not clever enough to analyze reality on his own -- he just regurgitates stuff he hears from other people without applying any critical thinking. He is just an extension of a bureaucrat from south block without a single creative neuron in his rather large skull. It is a pity he is considered some sort of an expert by people in India -- I am all for him being considered an expert by enemies of India.

[Paul]

TEHELKA learns that the Indian government has begun the process of identifying land in Madhya Pradesh and Pune for an Uzi manufacturing plant. The target for the Uzi is a monster-size one: 1.13 million army personnel, 1.3 million paramilitary, and 1.15 million reservists. Not all of them will get anywhere close to an Uzi. But even if a third of them do, Israel has it made.

Israel has also offered its help in battling insurgencies in India, particularly with the Maoists — with, in particular, ‘intelligent’, semiautonomous drones. Sources told us that India has sent positive word (though not on-paper MOUs yet) for another lot of 100 drones over the next two or three years.

http://www.tehelka.com/india-israel-def ... iet-boost/

[Hitesh]

I am not a fan of Uzi guns. It is an useless weapon, only good for spray and covering fire and wasting ammunition.

[vijaykarthik]

Plans to dissolve Knesset. Also looks like Bibi can likely win the elections?

[Shanmukh]

Plans to dissolve Knesset. Also looks like Bibi can likely win the elections?

Possibly. All political parties are in a mess in Israel at the moment. Bibi's Likud might improve its standing, but given Israel's fractured polity, I very much doubt they can get a majority. The current situation was extremely problematic for everyone, so I guess this is Bibi's best bet.

[Aditya_V]

Can it? Bloody hell it must be... As repeatedly mentioned on BRF, there is no better tool for control over the Islamic World than Islam itself. And all it needs is real patience and understanding over the long term, plus tactical ability and the readiness to get scratched now and then.

Err isnt is what EU and USA have been doing for over 70 years, P.S- all Paki leaders and those Jamaat - e- Islami BD's who led the campaign especially against Hindus in 1971 , all got US Citizenships and thier children were given jobs in UK, Australia and USA.

Miltant Islam is one of the tools used to keep the Indian subccontinent from being a competitor.

[member_22733]

I am not sure of this statement since I have not done much research into this: But controlling Islamic world needs another quality :- white skins?

Indians can try, but we will never be respected.

[JE Menon]

Can it? Bloody hell it must be... As repeatedly mentioned on BRF, there is no better tool for control over the Islamic World than Islam itself. And all it needs is real patience and understanding over the long term, plus tactical ability and the readiness to get scratched now and then.

Err isnt is what EU and USA have been doing for over 70 years, P.S- all Paki leaders and those Jamaat - e- Islami BD's who led the campaign especially against Hindus in 1971 , all got US Citizenships and thier children were given jobs in UK, Australia and USA.

Miltant Islam is one of the tools used to keep the Indian subccontinent from being a competitor.

Exactly. And that's what we need to do too. Use it as a tool as required. It would be a waste to let such a resource go wasted. That's what I'm saying.

[tarun]

I am not sure of this statement since I have not done much research into this: But controlling Islamic world needs another quality :- white skins?

Indians can try, but we will never be respected.

With due respect we can learn a bit from the country which is tallel than mountains and sweetel than honey in this regard. The first salvos in this regard have been fired by gubermint in terms of compensation delink for Indian citizens in the Gulf.

[JE Menon]

LokeshC

We neither have to need nor care for their respect. What we need to do is exploit the programme to determine their behaviour. In our favour.

[RajeshA]

Can it? Bloody hell it must be... As repeatedly mentioned on BRF, there is no better tool for control over the Islamic World than Islam itself. And all it needs is real patience and understanding over the long term, plus tactical ability and the readiness to get scratched now and then.

Exactly. And that's what we need to do too. Use it as a tool as required. It would be a waste to let such a resource go wasted. That's what I'm saying.

JE Menon saar,

many years ago on BRF, I too had advocated the use of Islamics to push our own agenda.

I still think it is doable, even as we try to crush Islamism at home.

There are certain centers which have been pushing Islamic movements - Wahhabis, Muslim Brotherhood, Hizbul ul-Tahrir, Islamic State, Hezbollah, Taliban, Jama'at-ud-Da'wah, etc. India however does not really have any handle on any such movement.

India can start some such group with a goal of getting Hejaz under its control - it can be Afghanistan based, or it can be Bangladesh based, where the emphasis is not some purity or piety but on overthrow of the racial hierarchy within Islam.

[devesh]

^^^
looks like we didn't learn much from similar delusions from "giants" who advocated for and supported Khilafat movement.

even stupidity, it seems, is cyclical.

Communists had it right about one thing: long established imperial/extraction-based ideologies are either to be entirely destroyed, or if NOT done so, any new entrant will in time have to compromise and subordinate to the extraction-based ideology.

even after seeing Islam for 1300 years in our own desh and samaj, we still harbor delusions of "using Islam for our own benefit".

this is not meant as a criticism of RajeshA. it is meant more as a genuine rebuke to above posters who think "we have to find a way" to "use Islam". at some point we have to stop living in fantasy.

[schinnas]

Islam has energy and mind of its own. Nobody including Islamists can use Islam for their own benefit in the long run. Such notions should be put to rest at the earliest. Even if it works for the short term, it will be akin to holding the tail of the proverbial tiger.

[devesh]

^^^

holding tiger's tail. I would go one step further: we want to teach a hyena to love sweets instead of its usual diet.

it boggles the mind....."use Islam for our benefit"....

[Paul]

Daniel Pipes on the sickular madness afflicting the Swedes....These people are as compromised as the Brits who at least look at the cost benefits ratio when supporting the sunnis.

Sweden is arguably the most "European" of European countries by virtue of its historically cohesive nationhood ("one big family"), militaristic and socialist legacies What does this mean???, untrammeled immigration, unmatched political correctness, and a supercilious claim to the status of a "moral superpower." These features also make it perhaps the most alien of European countries to an American conservative.

In this context, I offer a summary and paraphrase of my discussion with two senior members of the permanent bureaucracy in the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) held during a recent visit to Stockholm. Our affable but pointed discussion focused on the Middle East, on which we agreed on almost nothing; I might as well have been in Sudan's or Syria's MFA.

http://www.danielpipes.org/15181/swedis ... n-ministry

[JE Menon]

JE Menon saar,

many years ago on BRF, I too had advocated the use of Islamics to push our own agenda.

I still think it is doable, even as we try to crush Islamism at home.

There are certain centers which have been pushing Islamic movements - Wahhabis, Muslim Brotherhood, Hizbul ul-Tahrir, Islamic State, Hezbollah, Taliban, Jama'at-ud-Da'wah, etc. India however does not really have any handle on any such movement.

India can start some such group with a goal of getting Hejaz under its control - it can be Afghanistan based, or it can be Bangladesh based, where the emphasis is not some purity or piety but on overthrow of the racial hierarchy within Islam.

It is not just doable, it is necessary. Who knows and understands the schisms in Islam at first-hand other than India and Indian experts? Very few, if any, countries. I'm not talking about an ideological or interpretative assault on Islam by Indian Muslim intellectuals (though that is useful too), I'm talking rather about an exploitation of the existing divisions outside the country.

Essentially, what is being done by others now in the Middle East: support the Sunnis and allow them to get the upper hand for a while, then support the Shiites, then back again... meanwhile, support the minorities as much as possible. And all the way shout out that "Islam is the Religion of Peace" and that "terrorism has no religion". These claims allow the Muslims who are directly involved in violence, or in funding it, or intellectually bolstering it, or in giving it political cover and deniability to have enough room to continue doing what they are doing.

In the meantime, this resource rich region remains poorly educated, fundamentally ignorant for the most part about what is happening in any scientific discipline, easily prone to provocation, and very quickly egged on into random violence - in short useful idiots. But they will capture a few of ours and behead them or something equally gruesome (as it is the Islamic way). When they do that, just keep in mind that the right thing to do in the larger interest of keeping the entire population of navel-gazing absolutist idiots in the state they are, is to say: "Islam is a religion of peace", and "terrorism has no religion". This will keep them intellectually cushioned, satisfied in their stupidity, and continue to operate within their foolish faith cocoon. We really don't need another 700 or so million truly competitive people in our neighbourhood now.

[schinnas]

/\/\

US and Europe can play the game of pitting sunnies vs shias. We can ill afford to do that. India has a very large sunni and shia population which is culturally and religiously very well connected with Saudi and Iran respectively. In fact in many Shia villages in India (especially Kashmir border areas), one could see big portraits of Khomeini (and portraits of Indian leaders would be conspicuous by their absence).

The only game India needs to focus on is the long term game for which we are uniquely qualified than anyone else. Islam needs to reform from inside through introspection and rationalism. It is nearly an impossible task. Even sufi-ism failed. But if there is one civilization that has an unbroken record of in-depth spiritual introspection for the past several millennia, or the advent of genuine spiritual masters such as Ramakrishna/Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo or Kabir in every century, it is India. Any reform movement of Islam can originate only in India. No other nation is ripe for it. If it does not happen in India, it will be a civilizational war between Islamists and non-Islamists for next several centuries - one that will bleed India from inside given the sizeable muslim population we have.

To effect this, we need to introduce a culture of debate and introspection amongst Indian mulims. Start very subtle and build from there.

[JE Menon]

schinnas,

If you are responding to my post, please read my post again - first para last line.

[schinnas]

I read that, JEM Ji. I was pointing out that our sunnies and shias are very connected with their global brethren and could have domestic ramifixations. Anything we could do, can only be done very subtly.

[JE Menon]

Aren't they connected with their global brethren now? Aren't their brethren slaughtering each other now? Of course they are. Sure, we should be subtle about it to minimise expense. But if Sunnis and Shias want to stop killing each other, it is a very simple solution. Stop shooting. Then no one can instigate. But there's the problem you see, each has an absolute position in opposition to the other - and each believes it's version of Islam is the right one.

You can see why Islam is the best tool one could have asked for, if one wanted to subjugate a population, to divide and rule, to mentally enslave. This is what the every significant power on the periphery of the Islamic space is doing at the moment...there is little explicit co-ordination or even any articulation in public, but of course there never will be.

[RajeshA]

JE Menon saar,

many years ago on BRF, I too had advocated the use of Islamics to push our own agenda.

I still think it is doable, even as we try to crush Islamism at home.

There are certain centers which have been pushing Islamic movements - Wahhabis, Muslim Brotherhood, Hizbul ul-Tahrir, Islamic State, Hezbollah, Taliban, Jama'at-ud-Da'wah, etc. India however does not really have any handle on any such movement.

India can start some such group with a goal of getting Hejaz under its control - it can be Afghanistan based, or it can be Bangladesh based, where the emphasis is not some purity or piety but on overthrow of the racial hierarchy within Islam.

It is not just doable, it is necessary. Who knows and understands the schisms in Islam at first-hand other than India and Indian experts? Very few, if any, countries. I'm not talking about an ideological or interpretative assault on Islam by Indian Muslim intellectuals (though that is useful too), I'm talking rather about an exploitation of the existing divisions outside the country.

Essentially, what is being done by others now in the Middle East: support the Sunnis and allow them to get the upper hand for a while, then support the Shiites, then back again... meanwhile, support the minorities as much as possible. And all the way shout out that "Islam is the Religion of Peace" and that "terrorism has no religion". These claims allow the Muslims who are directly involved in violence, or in funding it, or intellectually bolstering it, or in giving it political cover and deniability to have enough room to continue doing what they are doing.

In the meantime, this resource rich region remains poorly educated, fundamentally ignorant for the most part about what is happening in any scientific discipline, easily prone to provocation, and very quickly egged on into random violence - in short useful idiots. But they will capture a few of ours and behead them or something equally gruesome (as it is the Islamic way). When they do that, just keep in mind that the right thing to do in the larger interest of keeping the entire population of navel-gazing absolutist idiots in the state they are, is to say: "Islam is a religion of peace", and "terrorism has no religion". This will keep them intellectually cushioned, satisfied in their stupidity, and continue to operate within their foolish faith cocoon. We really don't need another 700 or so million truly competitive people in our neighbourhood now.

JE Menon saar,

perhaps you can shift these posts on dealing with Islam to a more appropriate thread, i.e. if you consider these off-topic here, perhaps to "Understanding Islamic Society", as there is no thread "Managing Islamic/Islamist Threat", but an issue about which there are often many posts, spread around.

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Regarding your suggestion, I have a little doubt.

It is often said, that Americans love wars, because it allows them to test their weapon systems and train their military.

With Islam, to a large extent, I feel it is not any different. What they hone is production of experienced Jihadis, even if it means through green-on-green violence. Sure many die, but these wars also create experienced veterans, and since these are sourced from many countries, they also export Jihad to all corners of the world.

Consider it an Islamic Yajña which requires sacrifice from their own ranks with the aim to strengthen Jihad. It is like a brick kiln in which fire-hardened Jihadis are produced often by feeding Jihadis to the fire. Often course human life and any peace in this world is also used to fire up the kiln.

So Jihad in one form or another would come back to bite the Kufr.

What I am suggesting is a Racial Revolt in Islam in the name of Piety and Jihad with the aim of overthrowing the current racial hierarchy in Islam. This Racial Revolt should be only subtly supported by us.