happy Gandhi jayanti happy Lal Bahadur Shastri jayanti

[Vayutuvan]

let us all remember the tow great Indians. jai jawaan jai kisaan

[ramana]

Let's remember
Father of Nation and
Savior of Nation.

[vimal]

Is this a joke thread?

[Suresh S]

Mohandas karamchand Gandhi did more damage to India than any man in modern history of India. The real fathers of the nation are Netaji Subhas chandra Bose,Babasaheb Ambedkar, Sardar Patel and Lal Bahadur Shastri. Gandhi,s name should be mentioned in Indian history only to be condemned.

[Mukhi]

A tribute to a men greatly misunderstood by the ignorant class. Many today blame him for troubles faced by India Today, all the while forgetting, he was not a prime minister and he died 6 - 7 decades ago.

Did he make mistakes?? I am sure he did. But so do all of us. Could he have done somethings differently?? I am sure. But so do all of us, with hindsight 20-20.

Very blessed to have visited his Ashram several times and love to be at that place more often.

[m_saini]

Some quotes on the "great" man's birthday

1.

I would tell the Hindus to face death cheerfully if the Muslims are out to kill them.......You may turn round and ask whether all Hindus and all Sikhs should die. Yes, I would say. Such martyrdom will not be in vain.

2.

I am grieved to learn that people are running away from the West Punjab and I am told that Lahore is being evacuated by the non-Muslims. I must say that this is what it should not be. If you think Lahore is dead or is dying, do not run away from it, but die with what you think is the dying Lahore.

3.

In his late 70s, before he died at 78, he slept naked with his grandniece when she was in her late teens. He said he wanted to test his willpower to abstain from sex.

4.

Gandhi described black Africans as “savage,” “raw” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness,” and he campaigned relentlessly to prove to the British rulers that the Indian community in South Africa was superior to native black Africans.

5.

I venture to point out that both the English and the Indians spring from a common stock, called the Indo-Aryan. … A general belief seems to prevail in the Colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than savages or the Natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.

6.

In response to the White League’s agitation against Indian immigration and the proposed importation of Chinese labour, Gandhi wrote in 1903: “We believe also that the white race in South Africa should be the predominating race.”

Truly a great man immensely misunderstood by the ignorant unwashed class. We should all visit the "ashrams", preferably naked, so we too can test our willpower to abstain from sex.

[Atmavik]

Is this a joke thread?

What has brf come too. Clubbing shastriji with the pisfull …

[Vayutuvan]

Is this a joke thread?

why do you think that? no not at all. LBS is no joke.

[Vayutuvan]

Mohandas karamchand Gandhi did more damage to India than any man in modern history of India. The real fathers of the nation are Netaji Subhas chandra Bose,Babasaheb Ambedkar, Sardar Patel and Lal Bahadur Shastri. Gandhi,s name should be mentioned in Indian history only to be condemned.

Are you sure Ambedkar ji belongs to the list?

[Vayutuvan]

A tribute to a men greatly misunderstood by the ignorant class. Many today blame him for troubles faced by India Today, all the while forgetting, he was not a prime minister and he died 6 - 7 decades ago.

Did he make mistakes?? I am sure he did. But so do all of us. Could he have done somethings differently?? I am sure. But so do all of us, with hindsight 20-20.

Very blessed to have visited his Ashram several times and love to be at that place more often.

Who is "he"? MKG or LBS? If INC disbanded as the former wished the. we wouldn't have had the latter as a PM, right?!

[Vayutuvan]

Some quotes on the "great" man's birthday
...

how about quoting him on Christism? Some of his quotes on Mohammadanism are also quite educational. I hope you find those with the same alacrity as you did in finding these quotes.

[Cain Marko]

Mohandas karamchand Gandhi did more damage to India than any man in modern history of India. .

Rubbish.

[Cain Marko]

So. This is a thread designed to bash Gandhiji looks like. I'm not sure that was the intent of the OP, but out sure seems to be a strong sentiment. Nice, on his birthday no less.

[Cain Marko]

A tribute to a men greatly misunderstood by the ignorant class. Many today blame him for troubles faced by India Today, all the while forgetting, he was not a prime minister and he died 6 - 7 decades ago.

Did he make mistakes?? I am sure he did. But so do all of us. Could he have done somethings differently?? I am sure. But so do all of us, with hindsight 20-20.

Very blessed to have visited his Ashram several times and love to be at that place more often.

Agreed.

[Mort Walker]

Mohandas karamchand Gandhi did more damage to India than any man in modern history of India. The real fathers of the nation are Netaji Subhas chandra Bose,Babasaheb Ambedkar, Sardar Patel and Lal Bahadur Shastri. Gandhi,s name should be mentioned in Indian history only to be condemned.

That distinction of dishonor goes to none other than Banditji. MKG was seriously flawed, but he did his part for Independence like many others. It is only the Nerhu/Gandhi clan and the INC that has incorrectly elevated him. It's time to get MKG off of all Indian currency except maybe the Rs. 10/ note. All other freedom fighters should be on all other denominations.

[nash]

Beautiful thoughts by BR Ambedkar on Gandhi:



Full inetrview:



It should clear lot of doubts of people about him who are still in illusion.

[m_saini]

how about quoting him on Christism? Some of his quotes on Mohammadanism are also quite educational. I hope you find those with the same alacrity as you did in finding these quotes.

Don't need to, or want to really. But if you have them ready then please by all means.

Besides I don't get the thought process. So if he said some mean (or good) things about christianity then that's somehow supposed to absolve him of his hatred towards hindus and his perverseness? Or is this another one of those 9000 IQ things that the ignorant class just doesn't get?

[Vayutuvan]

So. This is a thread designed to bash Gandhiji looks like. I'm not sure that was the intent of the OP, but out sure seems to be a strong sentiment. Nice, on his birthday no less.

yatbhaavam tatbhavati

[Vayutuvan]

how about quoting him on Christism? Some of his quotes on Mohammadanism are also quite educational. I hope you find those with the same alacrity as you did in finding these quotes.

Don't need to, or want to really.

I request (too wimpy) demand ( too demanding) ask that you try to find those quotes. Do those quotes have to be 'mean'? Why the presumption?

Why is everyone forgetting LBS?

jai jawaan jai kisaan

[m_saini]

Do those quotes have to be 'mean'? Why the presumption?

So if he said some mean (or good) things about christianity then....

Jai Jawaan, Jai Kisaan, Jai Vigyan, Jai Anusandhan

[Vayutuvan]

Jai Jawaan, Jai Kisaan, Jai Vigyan, Jai Anusandhan

nice. I was trying to remember the complete thing. LBS said only first half p, IIRC.

[AshishA]

Lal Bahadur Shastri was inspired by MK Gandhi. So regardless of his opinions and actions, M.K. Gandhi inspired a generation of Indians to fight for freedom. That earns my respect.

[Vayutuvan]

Lal Bahadur Shastri was inspired by MK Gandhi. So regardless of his opinions and actions, M.K. Gandhi inspired a generation of Indians to fight for freedom. That earns my respect.

Yes, absolutely. Gandhiji had his failings. "To err is human" after all. We are all better served to point out that MLK and Mandela both copied Gandhiji and hence were successful in changing the racist mindset in their respective nations where the whites held the power of life and death over the non-whites. We should not let others appropriate our own heroes/heroines/leaders. They have already appropriated samskrutam as their own, everything came from Levant, etc. We should put a stop to their appropriating our symbols (swastika) and our leaders as their own.

[ramana]

Itihas is what happened. We can't rewind only move on.
As for understanding Gandhiji or Shastriji let's recall R. Collingwood, who said in "Idea of history,
"One needs to put themselves in the shoes of the historical figure to understand the path they took!!"

[ramana]

VT, Did you know MLK went to India inspired by Gandhiji?

From Wikipedia

King was inspired by Gandhi and his success with nonviolent activism, and as a theology student, King described Gandhi as being one of the "individuals who greatly reveal the working of the Spirit of God".[344] King had "for a long time ... wanted to take a trip to India."[345] With assistance from Harris Wofford, the American Friends Service Committee, and other supporters, he was able to fund the journey in April 1959.[346][347] The trip to India affected King, deepening his understanding of nonviolent resistance and his commitment to America's struggle for civil rights. In a radio address made during his final evening in India, King reflected, "Since being in India, I am more convinced than ever before that the method of nonviolent resistance is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for justice and human dignity."

King's admiration of Gandhi's nonviolence did not diminish in later years. He went so far as to hold up his example when receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1964, hailing the "successful precedent" of using nonviolence "in a magnificent way by Mohandas K. Gandhi to challenge the might of the British Empire ... He struggled only with the weapons of truth, soul force, non-injury and courage."[348]

[m_saini]

By the end of his life, Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence

In the summer of 1967, Martin Luther King, Jr......By then he had somewhat resigned himself to the idea of the riot as a necessary form of action.

This interview is where his famous “a riot is the language of the unheard” quote originated

“My hope is that it will be nonviolent. I would hope that we can avoid riots because riots are self-defeating and socially destructive. I would hope that we can avoid riots, but that we would be as militant and as determined next summer and through the winter as we have been this summer.”

It was his first speech since the bloody summer had come to a close, and he appeared to have evolved on the issue of rioting and looting. He now spoke of it as a necessary act, a stance which stood in contrast to his discussion of riots just a year earlier. He had been resigned to them as an inevitability, but now he was understanding them as a small measure of freedom.

“Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena,”

but by the time he spoke in the fall of 1967, he recognized that it would no longer be effective to tell black folks to only protest peacefully, kindly, and respectfully. They could not prosper in a game where they were the only ones expected to play by the rules.

Martin Luther King, at the end of his life, was coming to understand the restrictions of nonviolence as a weapon against a violent oppressor who shows no moral compas

Beyond the misattributed quotes and bad memes and poor logic made in his name,.....Nonviolence — as it is discussed and fetishized in proximity to the poor and/or marginalized — is so often only dragged out in response to any uprising of those people. The riot is a language, yes, but the response to a riot is also its own language; a language of doublespeak.

The people who have the most justifiable anger, the most rightful case for rebellion are the ones most frequently told to settle down, to embrace nonviolence.

The whole non-violence schtick is as pathetic as the pervert who devised it.

[Mukhi]

With that stick, the terrorists are not terrorists than. They are freedom fighters I guess.

Non Violance hd its place and time and it served the purpose. The man did more for India’s freedom than what anyone of is is doing to preserve it. Thats not to say he is the only reason India got freedom. But he sure was a major part of it.

[m_saini]

Yeah because Hindus in 1940s were obviously crashing passenger planes in Big Ben or Buckingham Palace.

[Mukhi]

So.. Non Violence is wrong, Blowing up planes is wrong. That really leaves diplomacy as an only option to use to get freedom in those times.

[m_saini]

Sirji there is difference between violence and terrorism. Violence doesn't automatically mean you are a terrorist, even though the reverse is true.

If we can't even agree on this simple fact there there is no point in arguing any further.

‘Terrorism’ or ‘Liberation’?

Mr. Sherman: “What is the difference between terrorism on the one hand and waging a legitimate guerrilla struggle on the other? What is the difference between Al Qaida and George Washington? ....... George Washington did use violence.”

Mr. Camp: “Last I checked, though, he [GW] did not blow up buildings with civilians. I mean, the LTTE has been famous for its attacks; its suicide bomb attacks on civilian targets.”

In this article it is postulated that, the LTTE is to be viewed primarily as a terrorist movement based on the following characteristics and modus operandi of the LTTE during much of its lifetime:

[1] Armed struggle was overwhelmingly based on acts of violence, devoid of mass mobilisation, political agitations, or popular participation;
[2] Support of the masses was solicited by persecution rather than persuasion;
[3] Deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians in armed attacks;
[4] Reliance on suicidal armed attacks;
[5] Recruitment and employment of children in active combat;
[6] Internecine war against members of its own community.

I don't agree with everything said in the article but it does differentiates between terrorism and violent struggle extremely efficiently. Hope this answers some of your comments.

[Vayutuvan]

VT, Did you know MLK went to India inspired by Gandhiji?

No, I didn't. This is a very interesting piece of information.

[Vayutuvan]

Sirji there is difference between violence and terrorism. Violence doesn't automatically mean you are a terrorist, even though the reverse is true.

m_saini ji, let us not forget the key difference between India after 1857 and American situation before 1776 and soon after. MLK jr. and his followers could appeal to the second amendment with no restrictions on bearing arms. The British imposed a ban on British Indian aam from owning arms. How can one fight against advanced and overwhelming force of the tanks trampling over them? That did happen during the Jallianwala bagh incident. Indians had to resort to assassinations with very careful and long planning to avenge those who were cut down in Jallianwala Bagh. But they were nothing more than a pin prick or two. What is the life of a lowly general (was Dyer even a general or mere brigadier?) worth in the vast British army?

[m_saini]

I couldn't find anything about the British ban on Indians owning arms after 1857. Some Indian regiments were disbanded and brahmins were removed from armed service in favor of other "martial races" like sikhs and gurkhas but nothing about a ban. Still even if that were true, it's extremely hard to believe that Indians couldn't have got their hands on guns if they wanted to, British ban notwithstanding. It wasn't required to arm entire 300 million Indians to fight off 20,000 Brits.

Incidents like Jallianwala bagh are exactly the kind of thing that makes me abhor Gandhi's non-violence. It was peaceful protest but the people were butchered anyway. What difference does it make then if the tanks were trampling over them or the trampling was done by fellow Indians running around in a frenzy trying to escape? Atleast give yourself a fighting chance.

It's probably true that Dyer was a nobody. But had they chose violence, then people much higher than him would've had faced the bayonet. Non-violence is exactly what bullies expect from you and it's the stupidest thing to do whether you're in a school playground or fighting for independence.

[AshishA]

Btw Gandhiji inspired a guy named Gene Sharp. The main guy behind the color revolutions.

[Vayutuvan]

This guy Gene Sharp claims that he is inspired by Gandhi ji, hain?

AshishA ji, are we supposed to believe every claim of every Tom, Dick, and Gene?!!!