India-China News and Discussion

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 13 Jul 2009 21:08

Kanson wrote: Considering the history of our MMS Gov response in these type of the circumstances, coming open on this topic triggering a national level debate gvies me the impression that Gov is letting the people come to terms with Chinese aggression.

Exactly GoI is mentally preparing the citizens for an armed conflict with China ... I think they knew it was coming for a while now.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 Jul 2009 02:14

Another reason could be that by publicizing this, the GOI hopes to forestall any misadventure. Basically telling the Chicoms that they have no element of surprise here.

satya · Post by **satya** » 14 Jul 2009 02:32

My 2 cents :

GoI is about to enter in some very serious border talks with PRC , remember its PRC that's asking for speedy resolution not GoI ! Hu's remark in this regard at SCO meet in Russia points towards that. Public Opinion has been hardened 'deliberately' by both sides to ensure leverage & vital interests are safeguarded nothing more nothing less . There's no military adventure in 'near term horizon' both for absence of geo-political gains & presence of internal CCP rivalries playing in full galore with recent Uighurs riots ( they were deliberately allowed to go out of hand to settle political scores & things will continue to get murkier more till succession of Hu happens ).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 03:26

Subscription site.

FT :: Fear of influence

Sino-Indian conflict makes it to FT!!!

Hambantota, in southern Sri Lanka, was a sleepy seaside village devastated by the 2004 tsunami. Famous for salt flats and a searing climate, it's most celebrated building was a British-built watchtower, now home to a fisheries museum.

Gwadar, likewise, until seven years ago, was a fishing town in Baluchistan on Pakistan's south-western shoreline. An enclave on the Arabian Sea given to Islamabad by the Aga Khan, it was not much thought of as a key staging point between central Asia and the Gulf.

Today these little-known towns are fast emerging on to a bigger political and economic map thanks to Chinese finance and engineering, which is upgrading their ports into world-class facilities. They are part of China's so-called "string of pearls" - the ports, staging posts and hubs that analysts say describe expanding Chinese interests and diplomatic initiatives in south Asia. The outreach - or, to some, apparent encirclement - is underpinned by infrastructure projects, arms supplies, energy routes and diplomatic protection.

Nowhere is this development causing more disquiet than in India. As energy dumps and refineries, jetties and gantries emerge on neighbouring shores, New Delhi fears that Beijing is extending its power to control shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea - waves that it prefers to rule. The moves have the potential to intensify the competition - and scramble for resources - between the world's fastest-growing big economies, both nuclear-armed powers.

India hoepfully will wake and act.

Arundhati Ghose, India's former ambassador to the UN, says Beijing's manoeuvring in south Asia is "causing us a lot of disquiet". China is "flexing its muscles," she says. "What they want to do is say 'We are the big boys here and Asia can only afford one power' . . . The message is that the power in Asia is China, and this is her periphery, and China is the one which will determine what is going to happen here."

There is a nice interactive map on the "string of pearls":

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4ff7f96c-6f2b ... abdc0.html

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 14 Jul 2009 10:27

Here is one amazingly anti-India article by a Nepali writer-

http://telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=5814

Nepal Perspective: Can India afford war with China?
Niraj Aryal

Niraj Aryal, Kathmandu: A country plagued with continued internal conflicts, a beleaguered nation with decades long armed insurgency in the North-East, Muslim population fighting for independent State in Kashmir since the very first day of the partition and now the overshoot of overtly boasted economic prosperity-the violent Maoist insurgency in the country’s most underprivileged states, can India afford War with either Pakistan or China or at worst both together?

However, Indian academics, warn their Government to remain ever prepared to fight China come year 2012 by improving its defense system.

Pretty nervous Indian academics give a very absurd reason for the War that is going to take place in the year 2012 as they opine in a some what frustrated manner?

“…that China will attack India by 2012 to divert the attention of its own people from unprecedented internal dissent, growing unemployment and financial problems that are threatening the hold of Communists in that country, claims Bharat Verma, Editor of the Indian Defense Review.

"China will launch an attack on the soft target- India before 2012. There are multiple reasons for a desperate Beijing to teach India the final lesson, thereby ensuring Chinese supremacy in Asia in this century," Verma is quoted by one of the Indian media.

Among other reasons for this assessment were rising unemployment, flight of capital worth billions of dollars, depletion of its foreign exchange reserves and the ever increasing internal dissent, Verma said in an editorial in the forthcoming issue of the premier defense journal of India.

At least looking into the Indian anxiety from Kathmandu lens, whether the southern neighbor, Nepal’s self proclaimed big brother any way, can afford war with China or not is not at all debatable …with China equipped with world’s largest military and virtually surrounding India in the Indian Ocean from Sri Lanka to Pakistan and most importantly, India’s neighboring countries of late preferring to side with China including natural gas enriched Myanmar, India is sure to loose the 2012 battle with the northern neighbor, if that happens at all.

If the prediction of the Indian academics is to come true, not only China, come 2012 India is sure to be at war in at least four different fronts, all together.

First and the foremost, India is to prepare itself to fight the internal insurgencies that it claims as to have been funded by China and morally supported by internal political forces such as that with the Naxals and ULFA and a host of similar insurgencies.

Second, a war with nuclear Pakistan looks inevitable, as India continues to create unrest in Baluchistan and support local Taliban outfits in the Swat valley, Pakistan’s patience is tested here.

And thirdly, at war with mediocre neighbors, such as Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka sans Bhutan for understandable reasons. India can not just ignore this proposition as well. Bhutan’s patience is also being tested, after all for how long it will continue to bow down to the Indian Gods to protect its ruthless regime.

What India can do to avert this war is quite simple as well?

Rather than concentrating on further irritating smaller neighbors like Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, India should learn on how to “behave” with sovereign nation’s in the neighborhood.

Here are some important tips for India.

First, respect the sovereignty of the smaller neighbors.

India should stop unnecessarily meddling in the internal matters of the countries in the backyard and immediately recall those erratic undiplomatic envoys, for example Sood of the Talibani fame, who behave as if he were the viceroys of the colonist India.

India must also stop nurturing Terrorists in the neighborhood such as that of the LTTE and those Madhesi armed outfits based in India that are terrorizing Nepali citizens.

India can at best stop playing the dangerous game of using the US card against China with which it shares great economic interests. By the way, India should also keep it in mind that the US is also with Pakistan and China.

India must also stop provoking anti-China elements in the neighborhood as it has been doing it from the Nepalese soil.

Rather than building up its defense at the cost of the millions and millions of destitute citizens who barely get two meals a day, India should finally mend its own erratic ways in dealing with the neighbors who still possess some love for India.

Mind boggles at the stupidity and anti-India sentiment of this article.

anuj · Post by **anuj** » 14 Jul 2009 12:01

commie nepal and there commie media. why are you surprised? this was expected the minute they went mao. the next characteristic of maoism is "offensive" rather than "defensive". get ready for that.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 14 Jul 2009 12:05

anuj wrote:commie nepal and there commie media. why are you surprised? this was expected the minute they went mao. the next characteristic of maoism is "offensive" rather than "defensive". get ready for that.

I thought we got rid of commies, at least from the driving seat, in Nepal with the overthrowing of their govt.

satya · Post by **satya** » 14 Jul 2009 16:24

The purpose of this thread is to understand the issues relating to India-China .Please don't post articles by some unknown journalists of a 3rd country. There are other appropriate threads for such articles & discussion if required to follow up . If u want to take up discussion on Nepalese news report do it it in either India-Nepal thread not here.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jul 2009 16:51

Satya ji, that article is very appropriate. It clearly shows that China along with Pakistan is gaining influence in our Nepali neighbourhood. This is not some Nepaliu writing, this could be a rabid Chinese or Paki writing. Sadly it shows it's a Nepali.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Jul 2009 16:52

http://telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=5814

kittoo wrote:
And thirdly, at war with mediocre neighbors, such as Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka sans Bhutan for understandable reasons. India can not just ignore this proposition as well. Bhutan’s patience is also being tested, after all for how long it will continue to bow down to the Indian Gods to protect its ruthless regime.

Rather than concentrating on further irritating smaller neighbors like Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, India should learn on how to “behave” with sovereign nation’s in the neighborhood.
See how this Nepali writer speaks for Sri Lanka, BD all at the same time.

India can at best stop playing the dangerous game of using the US card against China with which it shares great economic interests. By the way, India should also keep it in mind that the US is also with Pakistan and China.

Actually this is the first author to say that US is also with Pakistan and China. That is one of the reason for Nepali to confront India. Nepali support to China and TSP has been encouraged by Uncle.

Rather than building up its defense at the cost of the millions and millions of destitute citizens who barely get two meals a day, India should finally mend its own erratic ways in dealing with the neighbors who still possess some love for India.

A Paki advice is coming out here. The Nepalis are being converted to Pakis

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2009 17:44

I think that the ground realities right now cannot be concealed.Apart from assistance to India's militant groups in the N-east and the Naxalites within the country,China is assisting Lanka build a huge maritime port in Hambantota (missed op by India) where logistic facilities for its navy will be available,a naval base for Pak at Gwadar where its subs can base themselves at the mouth of the Gulf,an established presence in Burma that has grown over decades and is now braying to a wider audience that Arunachal Pradesh belongs to it! The GOI should've immediately spoken about its own stakes in "Himalayan India",namely Indian Tibet.Recent incursions into Indian territory are reminiscent of events leading upto '62 and therefore the concern is genuine,legitimate and worrying,especially as China can now reinforce Tibet very quickly through the Tibetan raillink and even Pak too through the Karakorum Highway.As the pro-Chinese Nepalese commentator said,India might find itself for the very firts time fighting a war on two or more fronts.Are we prepared?The answer is right now no.

As China's image declines in Asia over its faltering economy and lack of democracy leading to internal unrest,the temptation for it to score a quick "victory" over India and reassert its desired hegemonic position in ASia will become a burning desire,unless India stymies it;'s sinister plans early enough,..

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 14 Jul 2009 17:55

Philip wrote:Are we prepared?The answer is right now no.

The question should be - Is China prepared to have a DIRECT war with India. And the answer is no.

Lets not forget America has a strong presence in Pakistan/Afghanistan. And America is prepared for a war with China....

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jul 2009 18:02

shravan wrote:
Philip wrote:Are we prepared?The answer is right now no.
The question should be - Is China prepared to have a DIRECT war with India. And the answer is no.

Lets not forget America has a strong presence in Pakistan/Afghanistan. And America is prepared for a war with China....

If anybody has to give second thoughts to China regarding a war with India, it is India, and India alone. America's appetite for a war with China is like ZERO! India would consider it lucky if USA even happens to condemn Chinese aggression, much less support us in any way, and all talk of going to war on our behalf is as likely as going to sleep today and waking up in German Democratic Republic.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 14 Jul 2009 18:20

RajeshA wrote: America's appetite for a war with China is like ZERO!

Why do you think that ?

America is the only country after WWII which led the biggest number of military operations and bombardments outside its borders.

India would consider it lucky if USA even happens to condemn Chinese aggression, much less support us in any way,

Why should USA condemn Chinese aggression? It wants China to do something stupid. And i think America will force China to do something stupid.

Pakistan is in total control of America. China cannot trust Pakistan till America leaves Afghanistan.
--

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 18:54

Apart from assistance to India's militant groups in the N-east and the Naxalites within the country,China is assisting Lanka build a huge maritime port in Hambantota (missed op by India)

Noooope.

SL DID approach India FIRST - to supply arms. When India declined (of course due to internal politics - what else) SL went to China (which actually went to Pakistan).

India is very, very good at passing on files among themselves and not acting. Sure there were/are huge considerations within India WRT SL situation - no two ways. But, there is an associated cost too. India is paying for it now. Yet, not all is lost. BD is healing (India needs to rev that up). SL can be brought back even with this port stuff (SL does not need to allow defence related stuff there). Myanmar is not happy with Chicom - Huns are invading central Myanmar where there are reports that some 30% are Huns - illegal of course. India is working on the out-board island countries. In Nepal India played her card (Army head being "reinstated" - collapse of GoN).

I relate all these vents to the re-election of MMS. MMS's body posture had been great just after the election, today it is bad (real bad) - guess due to stress of Indo-US nuclear deal and Indo-Pak talk pressure from US.

I am not too sure about US backing for Nepal + TSP + China. I think it is a Chinese ploy - phyops. Let us see how things work out with clinton.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 18:57

America is the only country after WWII which led the biggest number of military operations and bombardments outside its borders.

CNN, just yesterday, reported that the US has hit a Trillion dollar deficit and may not have anyone to buy her debt. US Treasury may increase interest to attract buyers!!!!

The US will avoid any war - specially with China. Which is what is making China more bold - IMHO.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jul 2009 19:16

NRao wrote:
America is the only country after WWII which led the biggest number of military operations and bombardments outside its borders.
CNN, just yesterday, reported that the US has hit a Trillion dollar deficit and may not have anyone to buy her debt. US Treasury may increase interest to attract buyers!!!!

The US will avoid any war - specially with China. Which is what is making China more bold - IMHO.

A dumb thought...

Wouldn't it be a better option for Unkil to go to war with Lizard?

That way he need not pay $1tn. And can happily destroy all the infra created with his FDI and remove that cheap import option, encouraging domestic industry (or create a new FDI opportunity in places like India), and convert all the $1+tn debt into investment in military infra and gain even more strength?

On the other hand, Lizard will lose $1+tn cash, all the infra (for sure the cheap-factories), kiss tiwans-a$$ a final good-bye, lose Tibet and whatever the place Uighers live... And more than anything CCP's control over PRC.

So who shoud be making bold moves?

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 14 Jul 2009 19:23

NRao wrote: CNN, just yesterday, reported that the US has hit a Trillion dollar deficit and may not have anyone to buy her debt. US Treasury may increase interest to attract buyers!!!!

The US will avoid any war - specially with China. Which is what is making China more bold - IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Keynesianism

Military Keynesianism is a government economic policy in which the government devotes large amounts of spending to the military in an effort to increase economic growth.[1] This is a specific variation on Keynesian economics, developed by English economist John Maynard Keynes. Instances commonly supplied as examples of such policies are Germany in the 1930s and the United States in the 1980s, although whether these assessments are accurate is the subject of vigorous debate.

Examples of Military Keynesianism

There have been no clear-cut historical examples of military Keynesianism in action. The reason is that the theory of military Keynesianism requires that the increased military spending be intended to fulfill an economic goal (i.e. to enhance growth, or increase employment); however the goal of military spending has in all cases been to achieve some military, or political goal.

The Germany of the 1930s, which rebuilt a crippled economy with enormous military production under a National Socialist government, has been cited as an example of military Keynesianism; however the purpose of the increased German military spending was not to increase economic growth, but to prepare for the war of conquest that Hitler always intended to launch. This example illustrates both the potential positives of such policies - in generating rapid growth - and also the negative social effects presented by critics, since the aim of heightened German military production in the 1930s was preparation for the Second World War.

In today’s discourse, the term is most frequently discussed in relation to the United States, particularly the administration of President Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. Reagan’s administration pushed for significant tax cuts, while increasing military spending to confront the Soviet Union. This was in practice a policy suggestive of military Keynesianism, although Reagan defended it, arguing that military spending was necessary to combat Communism by outspending the Soviet Union.

For many in the United States worried about the adoption of these economic policies, their fears abated somewhat with the reduced military spending of the 1990s which was commonly described as the peace dividend of the end of the Cold War. However, the ongoing War on Terrorism and current Iraq War have made such worries again widespread.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 19:27

Wouldn't it be a better option for Unkil to go to war with Lizard?

Uncle will not initiate a war - IMHO. And, every year the boundaries with Chicom will recede (Note that Obama will tell African nationS to do the right thingS, but never China) (Obama has pushed Israel, but not China). The US (IMHO) is in disarray - a weakness one might say. Weak enough for a China to talk big, and weak enough for the US not to talk back.

BTW, OT perhaps, but watch France. Just like China France is making waves for the US too. Skarky is getting very vocal WRT not just the US, but with Germany too.

BUT, that also means India can get to be more assertive. And, my current sense is that India is a lot more assertive in the IOR than even about 6 months ago.

Let us see.

I think that Nepali article is a China plant. It reeks of Chinese cooking.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 19:28

shravan ji,

US : Keynesianism :: Oil : water

Believe me ................ it cannot apply. Not even when the US dies - if it does.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 19:31

But, getting back to the thread - Indo-Sino stuff, IMHO, China is making plenty of noise - which is her preferred way to control external entities.

She has used Pakistan in the past (physical + material support - Chinese troops made a Lot of noise then too), Nepal (with this article for sure) are excellent examples.

Also, I am not interested in what China does (we do need to track them for sure), I am a LOT more interested in what India does - not reaction, but action, prefer proactive action.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 14 Jul 2009 19:45

NRao wrote:shravan ji,

US : Keynesianism :: Oil : water

Believe me ................ it cannot apply. Not even when the US dies - if it does.

I think Americas defense Budget is going to increase at least 10%.

I maybe wrong.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 14 Jul 2009 19:47

A comment on the article reads like this-

Dear Kamal, I don't want to say anything about the article but it would better if Indians recall the day " Bakra lelo, hamein hamari jamin waapas dedo". India might have wiped out from the world map but that was absolutely right idea. So, we can't neglect the role of Indian people in past yearts. But if someone says Pakistan is weaker than India then it may be stupidness. Size and volume can't be taken as "Power" otherwise how Israel still exists in this world?

What incident he is referring to?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jul 2009 20:00

kittoo wrote: What incident he is referring to?

This one during the 1965 war

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2009 20:14

shravan wrote: I think Americas defense Budget is going to increase at least 10%.

I maybe wrong.

Right or wrong, the US budget considerations have nothing to do with Keynes. The US is pretty much anti-K. The day they turn Keynesian they will have to close the Univ of Chicago and return all those Noble prizes.

Anyways, let us get back to Indo-Sino issues.

anuj · Post by **anuj** » 14 Jul 2009 21:00

http://media.ft.com/cms/e0eca34c-6fc5-1 ... eabdc0.swf
look at this! it's an encirclement!!
it's like discussing whether the religion of peace is really peaceful.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jul 2009 21:27

look at this! it's an encirclement!!

Indeed. All these countries will have to remain totalitarian to liase with China over he long run. China has realized that. India will have to prove that democracy and pluralist tradition work in the developing world. That will be Cina's knockout blow. However before we try and establish that for certain, Cina will try it's very best to destroy our progress. We have to influence our neighbourhood. We need to set an example. We need to ge our infrastructure, economy in high gear.

China has chosen the wrong battle to fight with India: Totalitarianism vs Pluralist/ tolerant tradition.

This Battle was fought millenia ago for influence in Asia. China lost easily. And they've backed the WRONG horse this time too. And they know it deep inside..

Remember Satyameva Jayete. (The Truth alone will TRIUMPH)

India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border.
Hu Shih (Former Chinese ambassador to USA)

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 14 Jul 2009 21:30

harbans wrote:India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border.
Hu Shih (Former Chinese ambassador to USA)

It seems that Mr. Hu Shih did not read about conquests of Kanishka in Khotan. His conquests were primarily responsible for spread of Buddhism in China.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 14 Jul 2009 21:41

Satyameva Jayate is a nice quote, but I wish someone would provide a catchy translation in Sanskrit of 'Speak softly, but carry a very big stick'. Now that's something I'd like to see gain popularity instead...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jul 2009 21:41

Khotan lay in Xinjiang, right? It was never a part of China ever really, much like Tibet. So Hi Shih was right. I have met Chinese people in Dalian, ask ME about Tibet. They asked me if we spoke the same language. Same writing? I said yes, same Devanagri script. They went silent. I said nothing further also. People know deep inside the Chinese political system is crap. Thats my gut feeling.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jul 2009 21:46

Satyameva Jayate is a nice quote, but I wish someone would provide a catchy translation in Sanskrit of 'Speak softly, but carry a very big stick'. Now that's something I'd like to see gain popularity instead...

Don't you think India is being all SDRE, poor economy, poverty and what not cowering in fear in all corners, but the reality catching up with Panda on India is different? Are we not already implementing speaking softly..Gandhian, Buddhist etc..yet rolling out our own nuke subs? It may not be a conscious portrayal of Roosevelts famous words, but somehow it's being done at some level subconsiously..

And now it's becoming evident that India's Pluralist, tolerant and democratic tradition is slapping China left, right and center in public view. That their totalitarian, authoritative world view of development may not be the example that neighbours and their own citizens/ people, given a chance may want ultimately?

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 14 Jul 2009 22:00

I wish someone would provide a catchy translation in Sanskrit of 'Speak softly, but carry a very big stick'.

Something like
Mridu vachan vada
bahu dandika har

Edit:
vishaal dandika har

Someone please suggest the correct form of vah (to carry), as in vaahan

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 14 Jul 2009 22:13

NRao wrote:
America is the only country after WWII which led the biggest number of military operations and bombardments outside its borders.
CNN, just yesterday, reported that the US has hit a Trillion dollar deficit and may not have anyone to buy her debt. US Treasury may increase interest to attract buyers!!!!

The US will avoid any war - specially with China. Which is what is making China more bold - IMHO.

Contrary to the news reports, interest rates on long term US debt continue to be at record lows. The short term interest rates are of course controlled by the Fed which has set the overnight rate at less than 0.25%.

There is a risk that excessive spending by the Hussein administration will result in run-away debt and higher interest rates. But as a prime illustration of the self-correcting mechanism of a free market, the bond market reacted by sending the interest rate on 30 year bond to 5%, forcing a re-evaluation of the spending measures by the Hussein administration. It has come down by 0.6% since then.

With US saving rates rising for the first time, there is going to be ample demand for credit secured by the US. Baby boomers who have been burnt by the equity markets twice in the past two decades, are likely to invest more in fixed income investments going forward.

All this talk about China this/that is meaningless. The Chinese currency does not even float freely, so much for it becoming the reserve currency of the world. Right now other nations are willing to trade in the Yuan because it is undervalued. However when it is allowed to float and reaches its natural balance with the Western currencies, China's competitiveness will take a big hit; something which the CCP can not afford.

However thanks to their autocratic thinking and the sense of racial superiority cultivated by years of CCP propaganda, many in China are forgetting that their sphere of influence too is limited. The high-handed manner in which China is approaching its neighbours is likely to result in a concerted coordinated effort to rein in the borg. The first battle will be fought on the economic front, where the unfettered access China has enjoyed to the rest of the world's market will face restrictions. They are most likely going to be cloaked under some environmental umbrella, but they are coming.

Historically recessions and depressions have ended when wars start. So the US eventually may be welcome a war, as long as cost and danger to the US mainland is limited. India will provide China with a juicy target. Indian needs to be ready to give China a bloody nose in any misadventure.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jul 2009 23:42

A very nice article, and some excerpts:

http://www.redroom.com/articlestory/of- ... dern-china

When the famous Chinese monk Xuanzang (Hsuan-tsang) reached Sarnath in the 7th century, he wept uncontrollably at having finally reached the Western Paradise – Tushita Heaven

After studying under Silabhadra at Nalanda and being assisted along the way by Emperors Harsha Vardhana and the Great Turkic Khan of Central Asia, Xuanzang returned to his homeland where he spent the rest of his life translating hundreds of Sutras that he brought to China. Under his guidance, Emperor Tizong of the then emerging Tang Dynasty converted to Buddhism in his later years and accorded Sanskrit an official language status.

So deep and penetrating has been the influence of the Buddhist canon in the hearts and minds of the Chinese psyche that many European explorers of the 18th century concluded that to understand the ancient roots of China, one has to look to India. Even today, there is open acknowledgement by many Chinese of the influence on China of Indian thought.

Equally, every Indian should be grateful for the genius of its sages to be so well preserved and revered by citizens of two great ancient civilizations – China and Japan.

Our first visit was to a Taoist monastery in the Qinling Mountains, two hours from Xian, capital of Shaanxi province in Central China. Nestled in a forest-like setting atop a scenic hill, the 2,500-year-old monastery served as the seat of Lao Tze, founder of Taoism (one of the two indigenous religions of China) who taught here in 560 BC. Like other intuitive thinkers of the coaxial era, Lao Tze taught a doctrine, which is very similar to the Upanishads in its cosmology and is identical to Bhagavad-Gita's teaching of “Action in inaction, inaction in action”.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Jul 2009 00:01

anuj wrote:http://media.ft.com/cms/e0eca34c-6fc5-1 ... eabdc0.swf
look at this! it's an encirclement!!
it's like discussing whether the religion of peace is really peaceful.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jul 2009 13:45

The "string of pearls" might represent China's hope,but to "string" it completely will be another matter.India has a security agreement with Mauritius.No chance there.The Maldives is another doubtful case too.Sri Lanka while playing its cards well getting a lot of Chinese aid,might make more diplomatic gestures towards the Chinese,but balk at allowing Chinese forces on its soil threatening India.In fact,after eliminating the LTTE as a military presence on the island,the SL govt. does not need much military support any longer.It's future requirements will be more of good policing within the country and securing its coastal areas,for which purpose,it is to set up a Coast Guard on similar lines as that of India.Indian naval support to SL will be enough to checkmate any chance of China gaining a "foothold" in the island.The big Q is going to be logistic support like refuelling of PLAN for es at Hambantotat in a crisis.Being so close to India,which has a very large Tamil population in T'Nadu,it would be a very unwise SL govt. to allow PLAN warships or subs to operate from its ports in any Sino-Indian spat.SL would definitely prefer to be neutral and the IN could easily impose a "cordon sanitaire" of the island if need be,in case of any enemy using such facilities.The Seychelles is ruled by a dictatorial regime which can swing into full support for China.Cina is aiding development of a pwoer plant and wants to strengthen military ties,details below.

And Chinese President Hu Jintao — president of the world's most populous country — recently visited the Seychelles, one of the world's smaller countries with just 82,000 people. As he arrived, Hu gave the island $20 million. In comparison, the United States had just given it $25,000 for a mortuary, and Britain had given it $2,000 to fight mosquitoes, Mancham said. China has since given the Seychelles another $25 million for a power plant and announced intentions to improve relations — including military relations. Mancham said, "So that is why when Hu Jintao goes to Seychelles, it makes the point that China will not be (just) a fair-weather friend."

Burma,Bangladesh and Nepal are diffferent entities.Nepal is in the throes of an attempted Chinese takeover through the maoists,while Bangladesh swings from pro-to anti-Indian govts. from time to time.Burma being a military dictatorship also has the most strategic location,as it gives China an opportunity to outflank the Malacca Straits and an opportunity to invade the Andamans using Burma as a launch pad.The Burmese military are also divided with some wanting an equal relationship between India and China,so as not to allow any support for their internal opposition,which also has western support.India as far as Nepal is concerned,should use all its political skills in preventing the country ending up in pro-Chinese and Paki hands.We should plan for the possibility of a future civil war in Nepal where one side calls for Chinese military assistance,which would be catastrophic!

India must prepare for the foll. scenarios even though some might appear remote.
1.Chinese military intervention in Nepal.
2.Chinese obtaining military facilities in SL,Hambantota.
3.Increased Chinese military presenece in Burma and use of Burmese soil to launch attacks/invasion of the Andamans.
4.China obtaining military facilities in Bangladesh ports.
5.Sino-Pak joint military ops in Aksai Chin and simultaneous attacks against India.
6.Chinese attack/invasion in the N-East,Arunachal Pradesh.
7.Increased Sino-Pak proxy war against India internally through support for Naxalites and Islamist terror.
8.Permanent PLAN naval presence at Gwadar,threatening Indian il supplies.
9.Permanent PLAN naval presence in the IOR using nuclear subs and future carrier task forces10.Intense Chinese diplomatic efforts to deny India a UNSC seat.
10.Increased CHinese military presence in African countries formerly supportive of India.

I've saved this one for the last.

11.A surprise pre-emptive nuclear attack against India,that might also involve Paki nuclear asets.

In any military spat with China,we can expect very little help from the US or any other country.Even Russia is losing its former leverage with China as China grows economically and militarily and is less dependent upon Russian arms,might be able to only press for a ceasefire in fighting.No country will come to India's aid by threatening China militarily.There will be a lot of tea and sympathy for India,but India will have to fight its battles alone.China has very cleverly kept the border dispute alive,so that at any opportune time,it can use it as an excuse for "dealing" with India.Seen as a colonial hangocver,in such a situation,there will be pressure on India to compromise and give China concessions,just as Hitler was given at Munich,in the warmup to WW2.China has never cared for diplomatic niceties and will use the element of suprise.

The arrogance of China can be seen in this absurd "order" that Oz drop a documentary on the Uighars!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 712563.ece

China orders Australian film-makers to drop Uighur documentary
(Jason Reed/Reuters)
Rebiya Kadeer
Anne Barrowclough in Sydney

The Chinese government, already entangled in a row with Australia over the arrest of an Australian mining executive, has stirred more controversy by demanding that a film about a Chinese Uighur Muslim activist be dropped from the country's largest film festival.

The Cultural Attache at China's consulate in Melbourne contacted the organisers of the Melbourne Film Festival, and insisted they drop the documentary about Rabiya Kadeer, the exiled businesswoman and activist whom the Chinese government blame for last week's riots in restive Xinjiang province.

Richard Moore, the executive director of the film festival told The Times that the attache, Chunmei Chen, demanded he justify his decision to include the film, '10 Conditions of Love', in the festival.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Jul 2009 14:20

^^^ This whole string of pearls is a bit of an overhyped, and over alarmist scenario building...One look at the so called pearls, and the weaknesses become so much evident...Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Mauritius, Seychelles - China simply doesnt have the SLOC to maintain even a ship in each, forget a fleet....In cse they got too funny, there's that huge stationary floating aircraft carrier called the Andaman Islands that stand in the way of all Chinese shipping to any of these countries...the only viable "base" for China would be Gwadar, and the multiple insurgenceis in Pakistan make even that unviable for now...Nepal, the concept of an alternative route through China for Napali trade exists only in alarmist (and Maosit) minds - Nepal knows the importance of India only too well...

What China is doing is to buy political influence in these countries by doling out the cash. The challenge for us tis to negate that - matching dollar for dollar is difficult with China, so we need to have other, creative ways...

There is no denying China's enormous influence on the world economy, their reserves just crossed 2 Trillion dollars yesterday, but their faultlines are becoming clearer by the day, as are their vulnerabilities of state and society...We need to exploit them....

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Jul 2009 14:42

shiv wrote:
kittoo wrote: What incident he is referring to?
This one during the 1965 war

Thank you cybersurg!!

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 15 Jul 2009 18:50

If you're in the intelligence business, Google Earth makes hiding big things nearly impossible. This image is believed to be of a 1.8-square-mile scale model of a disputed region on the border of China and India. Google Earth spotters found it in a remote area in north central China (Google Earth coordinates 38.265652,105.9517)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/134186-6 ... earth.html

Why would they need such a thing? War Simulation?

News from Aus paper says that it is used to train the tank drivers...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/web/chine ... 17781.html

On Google Maps-
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.26565 ... &hl=en&t=h

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jul 2009 19:03

somnath,

The point is that 10 years ago - ON BR - some called the Chinese navy a tin-can navy. Perhaps it was.

Today, we all agree that it is no longer a tin-can navy.

10 years from now it has to change - for the better (which means it returns to a tin-can navy) or for the worse (which means it takes over IOR).

Your choice.

IMHO, India needs to roll back whatever China has done in IOR - I said that 10 years ago (and I was told don't worry about a tin-can navy.

)

Every naval base is designed to host a fleet. The question is whose fleet. Political influence - every country outside of India does that.

The US has a game plan for a 1000 ship fleet - guess what 1000 ships mostly from other nations.

Same with China.

OK. Back to chai-biscut. 10 years from now we can open this thread and say China is not a factor (and I do not mean within IOR).