India-China News and Discussion

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Mahendra
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Mahendra »

edit
Last edited by Mahendra on 15 Aug 2009 17:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

China's GDP Hit 1.23 Trillion US Dollars in 2002: NBS
30 Dec 2002 ... China's GDP Hit 1.23 Trillion US Dollars in 2002: NBS. China's economic growth in 2002 is expected to reach 8 percent, Director of the ...
english1.peopledaily.com.cn/200212/.../eng20021230_109314.shtml - Cached - Similar

Google: 2002 China Economic GDP trillion dollars

Katareji, IIRC Surajji quoted 99-00 because that was the time China crossed the 1 Trillion USD mark. India did that in 2007. So if China was 1.23 t in 2002 end, or 2003 beginning, we're the same size. 6.5 years behind at the max. Indias GDP now is around the 1.3 t USD..Google will get lots of sites and info that what i said is indeed accurate.
I posted this earlier in the tech forum. What you say:
distorted data of GDP just lead you nowhere.
Please see the above, it's a report from a Chinese daily itself. However the data can be verified from all sorts of sources.

Actually people say we have exactly the same size black economy in parallel. So we can really double our GDP figures. We don't include reinvested FDI in our calculations, Chinese do. Ask any economist, wo'd be more likely of fudging/ inflating economic data..Democratic India or pluralist China, who do you think they'd say?

Indian economy is a very understated one. Even now we are selling more mobiles every month than China. A large number of people in India tend to live very simply. Mr Narayanmurthy exemplified and not flash wealth around. So we have a large number of non flashy types with plent money and also a large number flashy ones with with plenty. But i see China's all flashy and lip synch. Never mind half the gleaming glass towers in Shanghai are empty.
Last edited by harbans on 15 Aug 2009 17:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

So it is true, the report I read about over 1 million Tibetans being massacred in the past 3 years?

Cannot be verified, but it seems true in the context of the again unverified reports that the Dalai Lama had to make favorable statements for the Chinese otherwise they'd be executing 10 monks a day. I think the Dalai Lama went as far as he could.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by archan »

So it seems that by supporting genocide and trying to show oneself as cool by showing their economy, our Chinese friend is kind of showing what communist China is today. Good that the world sees their true face from time to time.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:

I posted this earlier in the tech forum. What you say:


distorted data of GDP just lead you nowhere.
Please see the above, it's a report from a Chinese daily itself. However the data can be verified from all sorts of sources.

Actually people say we have exactl he same size economy in parallel. So we can really double our GDP figures. We don't include reinvested FDI in our calculations, Chinese do. Ask any economist, wo'd be more likely of fudging/ inflating economic data..Democratic India or pluralist China, who do you think they'd say?

Indian economy is a very understated one. Even now we are selling more mobiles every month than China. A large number of people in India tend to live very simply. Mr Narayanmurthy exemplified and not flash wealth around. So we have a large number of non flashy types with plent money and also a large number flashy ones with with plenty. But i see China's all flashy and lip synch. Never mind half the gleaming glass towers in Shanghai are empty.
ok, let talk in a simple way.

1.the output of almost every chinese industry section is 5-15 times more than that of India's,from low-tech products like toys,textiles, mid-tech products like shipbuilding,household appliances to high-tech products like cars,aircrafts,ship and chips.

however, China's nominal GDP is just only 3 time more than India's.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Patni »

Liu wrote:
GDP is sometimes helpful. but it is not helpful for you to understand of economy of China.

but I just trust what i see. I can compare china and the coutries i visited.

Malaysia has a per nomonal GDP of 10,000 USD or so, But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
,although the per nominal GDP of those chinese province is just about 1/2 of Malaysia.
Are you serious!! you dont want to believe that a persons salary or pay is a good measure of comparing income say with his colleague? but who ever has newest/shiniest living room showcase is the one who is richer! and doesnt matter if its all 2$ chines crap that is used to make living room look all shiny and it will rot in 3 months?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

Patni wrote:
Liu wrote:
GDP is sometimes helpful. but it is not helpful for you to understand of economy of China.

but I just trust what i see. I can compare china and the coutries i visited.

Malaysia has a per nomonal GDP of 10,000 USD or so, But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
,although the per nominal GDP of those chinese province is just about 1/2 of Malaysia.
Are you serious!! you dont want to believe that a persons salary or pay is a good measure of comparing income say with his colleague? but who ever has newest/shiniest living room showcase is the one who is richer! and doesnt matter if its all 2$ chines crap that is used to make living room look all shiny and it will rot in 3 months?
well,
it just proves that your knowledge on China is just limited to those "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.

in fact, farmers in yangtsi River delta and other costal belt live a better life than most chinese citizens in "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

ok, let talk in a simple way.

1.the output of almost every chinese industry section is 5-15 times more than that of India's,from low-tech products like toys,textiles, mid-tech products like shipbuilding,household appliances to high-tech products like cars,aircrafts,ship and chips.
We sell more mobile phones every month in India than whats sold in China. Fact is 1s quarter 2009, India sold more mobiles than Souh America, Norh America and Western Europe combined. And yes more than China. Pharma too India is ahead for example than China. India's IT exports are higher than China's too i guess. This is just random. Luxury sectors like diamond polishing etc (quite big really) and a host of other sectors..legal services, financial services i think India would be way ahead. Even he FDI figures have started looking similar..of late. Clear indications that India is indeed catching up..India's CY was certainly more technologically sophisticated than the Chang'e...etc etc.

While no one in India grudges China's progress, we are indeed like N3 ji said appalled that you put medieval standards on your own civilization, and grudge India's progress just because you want to dominate everthing alone like a selfish bully. Do ou not see that is exacl what impression China and you are reinforcing?
it just proves that your knowledge on China is just limited to those "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.
He interpreted that from your statement..
Malaysia has a per nomonal GDP of 10,000 USD or so, But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
,although the per nominal GDP of those chinese province is just about 1/2 of Malaysia.
How could you know apart from looking at the superficial? (unless you were there studying productivity) That is why he extrapolated on 'showcase' cities..
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:
ok, let talk in a simple way.

1.the output of almost every chinese industry section is 5-15 times more than that of India's,from low-tech products like toys,textiles, mid-tech products like shipbuilding,household appliances to high-tech products like cars,aircrafts,ship and chips.
We sell more mobile phones every month in India than whats sold in China. Fact is 1s quarter 2009, India sold more mobiles than Souh America, Norh America and Western Europe combined. And yes more than China. Pharma too India is ahead for example than China. India's IT exports are higher than China's too i guess. This is just random. Luxury sectors like diamond polishing etc (quite big really) and a host of other sectors..legal services, financial services i think India would be way ahead. Even he FDI figures have started looking similar..of late. Clear indications that India is indeed catching up..India's CY was certainly more technologically sophisticated than the Chang'e...etc etc.

While no one in India grudges China's progress, we are indeed like N3 ji said appalled that you put medieval standards on your own civilization, and grudge India's progress just because you want to dominate everthing alone like a selfish bully. Do ou not see that is exacl what impression China and you are reinforcing?
it just proves that your knowledge on China is just limited to those "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.
He interpreted that from our statement..
well,
frankly speaking, service section itself can not create wealth.

only agriculture ,industry and construction can create " real wealth ".

service section is just a way of wealth distrubtion
Last edited by Liu on 15 Aug 2009 17:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Patni »

Are you serious!! you dont want to believe that a persons salary or pay is a good measure of comparing income say with his colleague? but who ever has newest/shiniest living room showcase is the one who is richer! and doesnt matter if its all 2$ chines crap that is used to make living room look all shiny and it will rot in 3 months?
well,
it just proves that your knowledge on China is just limited to those "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.

in fact, farmers in yangtsi River delta and other costal belt live a better life than most chinese citizens in "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.

Firstly my knowledge or ignorance on china's "SHOWCASE" is not what i asked your opinion on! for that matters i have no first hand knowledge of either of two set of Chinese provinces/cities you want to compare! I only want you to clarify if you still stick to your measure of comparison for relative prosperity between two countries is still which one has more shiny showcase or not?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »


well,
frankly speaking, service section itself can not create wealth.

only agriculture ,industry and construction can create " real wealth ".

service section is just a way of wealth distrubtion
:shock: :shock:
Indeed !
(this discussion is reaching deff dumb standards eh people ?)
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

only agriculture ,industry and construction can create " real wealth ".

Oh! Production of goods and services is what constitutes wealth. You might try building in a different type where i have expertise. If you consult me on that and i charge a fee, i provide a service, that is as relevent or more than the person who lays up the brick layers or pours concrete into the columns. Just because in the last decade you got some flashy new toys, don't act so noveau rich. You're really not that far ahead. And the comparison of the Chinese story with the Indian story has just begun. While i acknowledge you have a head start and unencumbered by democratic niceties we have to follow in land acquisition etc, do not assume it's all over and the lead is unsurmountable.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

Patni wrote:


well,
it just proves that your knowledge on China is just limited to those "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.

in fact, farmers in yangtsi River delta and other costal belt live a better life than most chinese citizens in "showcase" like Shanghai and Beijing.

Firstly my knowledge or ignorance on china's "SHOWCASE" is not what i asked your opinion on! for that matters i have no first hand knowledge of either of two set of Chinese provinces/cities you want to compare! I only want you to clarify if you still stick to your measure of comparison for relative prosperity between two countries is still which one has more shiny showcase or not?
Yangtsi River Delta has a population of over 100 million ,almost = France's+UK's.

Pearal Rivera Delta also has a population of 300-400 million,almost = Spain.


is it proper to still call so populous area " showcase"?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

Rahul M wrote:

well,
frankly speaking, service section itself can not create wealth.

only agriculture ,industry and construction can create " real wealth ".

service section is just a way of wealth distrubtion
:shock: :shock:
Indeed !
(this discussion is reaching deff dumb standards eh people ?)
Karl Marx raised the veiwpoint so 100+ year ago.

I agree it, althought I don't accept Marx's other viewpoints.
Last edited by Liu on 15 Aug 2009 18:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

is it proper to still call so populous area " showcase"?
So did you to a productivity study of Malasia and the regions in China you mention? How did you then say..
But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
Were you touring or doing an economic study? Or did you just shoot off what you thought/ felt?
Karl Marx raise the veiwpoint so 100+ year ago.
I knew that but refrained using it last post..because i thought calling your thought process 'Maoist'/ 'commie' might be offensive.. :oops:

Well we all know including the Chinese busy cashing in on Adam Smith that it's incorrect..
Last edited by harbans on 15 Aug 2009 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by derkonig »

Liu wrote:well,
frankly speaking, service section itself can not create wealth.

only agriculture ,industry and construction can create " real wealth ".

service section is just a way of wealth distrubtion
really?
in that case all those smelly chinese restaurants can shutdown and start selling raw insects, noodles an whatever creepy crawlies you han eat, how bout that? only tangibles, no services. after all as u say, cooking being a service is of no use.
and while you are at it do shut down all banks, schools, universities, hospitals, hotels, airports, transportation services, internet(:D) and any other service in your country. why have them if they don't create wealth? is the prc leadership so dimwitted?
Last edited by derkonig on 15 Aug 2009 18:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

really?
in that case all those smelly chinese restaurants can shutdown and start selling raw vegetables & noodles, how bout that? only tangibles, no services. after all as u see it cooking being a service is of no use.
Derko, the party bosses that run the provinces will go to any Chinese restaurant, do anything to increase the GDP..they've got to show 8 or 10 % to rise in the hierarchy. Every service they will include, even stray rats in the restaurants..however much the owners yell, those are not mine.. :mrgreen:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by derkonig »

harbans wrote:
Derko, the party bosses that run the provinces will go to any Chinese restaurant, do anything to increase the GDP..they've got to show 8 or 10 % to rise in the hierarchy. Every service they will include, even stray rats in the restaurants..however much the owners yell, those are not mine.. :mrgreen:
AoA yand MaoA harbans-ullah,
the hans are the new 10%i :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:
is it proper to still call so populous area " showcase"?
So did you to a productivity study of Malasia and the regions in China you mention? How did you then say..
But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
Were you touring or doing an economic study? Or did you just shoot off what you thought/ felt?
Karl Marx raise the veiwpoint so 100+ year ago.
I knew that but refrained using it last post..because i thought calling your thought process 'Maoist'/ 'commie' might be offensive.. :oops:

Well we all know including the Chinese busy cashing in on Adam Smith that it's incorrect..
1. chinese low-tech industry and mid-tech industry are most productive in the world, which can be proven by " Made in China " all over the world.
If Mylasia's low-tech industry and mid-tech industry are more productive, then it should be " made in Mylasia" ,not "made in china" that sweeps the world.

2. Chinese high-tech industry still lag behind north America, west europe ,japan, S.korea and Taiwan.
However,chinese high-tech should be more advanced than those "moderate developed economies" like east europe and Malasia.

3.some of Marx's and Mao's viewpoints are useful, but I don't buy all of them.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

derkonig wrote:
Liu wrote:well,
frankly speaking, service section itself can not create wealth.

only agriculture ,industry and construction can create " real wealth ".

service section is just a way of wealth distrubtion
really?
in that case all those smelly chinese restaurants can shutdown and start selling raw insects, noodles an whatever creepy crawlies you han eat, how bout that? only tangibles, no services. after all as u say, cooking being a service is of no use.
and while you are at it do shut down all banks, schools, universities, hospitals, hotels, airports, transportation services, internet(:D) and any other service in your country. why have them if they don't create wealth? is the prc leadership so dimwitted?
the argue has lasted for 100+ years, and will last on.

we had better discuss in a new thread,to avoid mislead the current thread.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by derkonig »

Liu wrote:
derkonig wrote:really?
in that case all those smelly chinese restaurants can shutdown and start selling raw insects, noodles an whatever creepy crawlies you han eat, how bout that? only tangibles, no services. after all as u say, cooking being a service is of no use.
and while you are at it do shut down all banks, schools, universities, hospitals, hotels, airports, transportation services, internet(:D) and any other service in your country. why have them if they don't create wealth? is the prc leadership so dimwitted?
the argue has lasted for 100+ years, and will last on.

we had better discuss in a new thread,to avoid mislead the current thread.

why don't u confess that you lost the debate as you evidently have no answer to that question and are now trying to shift topics? seems like china has a teenie weenie service sector and feels insecure of India's booming and enormous service sector. besides, chinese products are known for being 'junk'. Indian products are renowned the world over for their superior quality and value. Why, even Taiwan is well respected for it high quality stuff unlike the prc junk.
face it, prc is destined to languish at the bottom of the pyramid. India shall lord over it.

Edit: what about those chinese 'massage' parlours? :twisted: :twisted: would you close them down as well? :(
Last edited by derkonig on 15 Aug 2009 18:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

Liu you wrote..
Malaysia has a per nomonal GDP of 10,000 USD or so, But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
,although the per nominal GDP of those chinese province is just about 1/2 of Malaysia.
You give as defense..

China is the low tech manufacturing base of the world..but China's provinces (non show case) you mention are 300 million people, how many times Malaysia's population? You still have not objectively answered why you feel the per cap GDP of the 'non show case' regions of 300 million will be higher than Malaysia's? Do you realize you made a statement on a hunch/ feeling/ thinking (bias), rather than objecivity?

Liu, there is no 'loss of face' in learning from a discussion. We all do, and thats why we hang out here. But your arguments and logic is a no brainer. China's prosperity is not a result of Marxist or Maoist rigidity, but reform. Maoism and Marxism will be confined to the dustbins of history.

Edit: what about those chinese 'massage' parlours? :twisted: :twisted: would you close them down as well? :(

Derko ji..now would not that be sad? :mrgreen:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Patni »

Liu wrote:
Patni wrote:

Firstly my knowledge or ignorance on china's "SHOWCASE" is not what i asked your opinion on! for that matters i have no first hand knowledge of either of two set of Chinese provinces/cities you want to compare! I only want you to clarify if you still stick to your measure of comparison for relative prosperity between two countries is still which one has more shiny showcase or not?
Yangtsi River Delta has a population of over 100 million ,almost = France's+UK's.

Pearal Rivera Delta also has a population of 300-400 million,almost = Spain.

is it proper to still call so populous area " showcase"?
Well i suppose you just want to save face and dont want to answer a simple direct question! so nothing new and we all here on BRF learn nope not learn just get reinforcement on behavior of a dron!
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:Liu you wrote..
Malaysia has a per nomonal GDP of 10,000 USD or so, But after visiting Malaysia, I don't think Malaysia is more advanced than Chinese coastal provinces like Guangdong,Jiangsu and Zhejiang
,although the per nominal GDP of those chinese province is just about 1/2 of Malaysia.
You give as defense..

China is the low tech manufacturing base of the world..but China's provinces (non show case) you mention are 300 million people, how many times Malaysia's population? You still have not objectively answered why you feel the per cap GDP of the 'non show case' regions of 300 million will be higher than Malaysia's? Do you realize you made a statement on a hunch/ feeling/ thinking (bias), rather than objecivity?
well,
I mean that even measued by people life quality,social development index ,urbanizaiton and other index, Malasia is not mor developed than those chinese province.

in fact, it is very simple to judge how developed a economy is!

1.live. can most people live in decent houses?
are there decent household applances like AC, TV,and decent furnitures in their house?
can electricity-supply be assured?
2.Food. can people be free starvation?
can people afford to have dinners in restaurants when necessory?

3.cloth. are people are in decent dresses?
are people's dresses fashionable?

4.transportation:
can people afford cars?
is transportation system like roads, subways,railways and airports enough and modern?
can people reach their destination convinently?


after visiting Malasia, I indeed don't think Malasia does better in the above 4 fields than Chinese coastal provinces like Jiangsu.

in fact, I have been to Hongkong and some of southeast Asian coutries. wherever I visited, I am very careful to compare the "live, food,cloth and transportation" of local people with chinese's.

Frankly speaking, in fact, the penentrating rate of most household appliance like AC, personal computers and TV are quite close to USA,japan and west Europe.at least, there is no generation gap between China and industrialized economies, when "food,cloth and live" is concerned.
Chinese's excellent infrastructures also provide quite convinent tranportation.

however, the most obvious gap is in "transporation". most people in industrialized economies can easily afford cars while China can not.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by derkonig »

good housing (check)
Image
Image

good food (check)
Image

good clothes (check)
Image


truly, china is workers paradise.....
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

Liu mian,

MaoA to you too. Totally agree with your superscientific survey.

In fact, I was aghast that the Napean Sea Road area in Mumbai was clubbed with the rest of Mumbai in the computing of its per capita income. See, the residents of this rather upmkt locality have great houses, cars and food. I see no reason why their per capita is less than that of shanghai!

The difference, IMO, is that when the chinese can stop migration into coastal cities and provinces based on those cute Residence permit systems will always show artifically high standards of living, no? See, ordinary folks can't generally go and pitch tents on Napean Sea road's wide roads either!

And so on and so forth.

See, PRC has some achievements to be proud of and nobody will deny you that. Don't push it, is all.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

in fact, it is very simple to judge how developed a economy is!

1.live. can most people live in decent houses?
are there decent household applances like AC, TV,and decent furnitures in their house?
can electricity-supply be assured?
2.Food. can people be free starvation?
can people afford to have dinners in restaurants when necessory?

3.cloth. are people are in decent dresses?

are people's dresses fashionable?
So why talk about GDP? From what i see you have an impression/ image. The world has moved to much more objective was of assessing wealth creation. I gave the example of Mr Narayanmurthy in Bangalore. His personal expenses are just 300 USD a month. He lives in a modest house. He is unfashionable. He's a billionaire many times over. Would you look down on him?

Gautam Buddha. Born a Prince. Every luxury in life. Abandons it to seek the Truth. In 5 centuries he influenced most of Asia's outlook for millenia to come.

Thats why we have more objecive ways to assess GDP and stuff. Impressions are always subjective. Yours and mine too.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

He's a billionaire many times over. Would you look down on him?

Gautam Buddha. Born a Prince. Every luxury in life. Abandons it to seek the Truth. In 5 centuries he influenced most of Asia's outlook for millenia to come.

Thats why we have more objecive ways to assess GDP and stuff. Impressions are always subjective. Yours and mine too.
Harbans,

In Liu Mon's defence, let me point out a stunning counterexample. The US! I remember seeing those wide roads, pretty houses, well manicured lawns, blah blah....whata wealthy society it is! So what if most homeowners are underwater on their home equity. So what if the avg level of household savings in the US in the glory dream bull run period of 2003-07 was negative? So what if unkil is the world's most indebted nation? Can anyone not look at the wide roads, pretty houses, well manicured lawns, blah blah and conclude the truth, eh?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

pls show the accurate time and place. pictures without any time and address can not prove much.


I can show you some travelogues.
what is shown in those travelogues are not "showcases",but the shot-snap of tourists.
if you can no read chinese script, you can just have a look at the pictures.

Here is Yangzhong county, a island county in Yantsi River. the county ranks about 10 th of all 100+ counties of Jiangsu Province,if measured by economy development.
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 7616.shtml


travelogue of Guangxi province. Guangxi Province is one of poorest province in China. the writer is a chinese student. he rode a bike and visited the province.
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 2698.shtml
Last edited by Liu on 15 Aug 2009 19:32, edited 2 times in total.
harbans
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

n Liu Mon's defence, let me point out a stunning counterexample. The US! I remember seeing those wide roads, pretty houses, well manicured lawns, blah blah....whata wealthy society it is! So what if most homeowners are underwater on their home equity. So what if the avg level of household savings in the US in the glory dream bull run period of 2003-07 was negative? So what if unkil is the world's most indebted nation? Can anyone not look at the wide roads, pretty houses, well manicured lawns, blah blah and conclude the truth, eh?
Indeed, wealth is not what it seems. Thats why i said impressions don't constitute an objective assessment of wealth as Liu determined on her visit to Malaysia. On my visits to China i am never jealous for example seeing good development. Same with India, i feel good to see infrastructure coming up. Thats why i am amazed and sad China views India's rise in such jealous ways.

Liu: Most of the housing you posted in the link there is very typical Indian middle class housing these days. I can post you even better ones if i start photographing just some in my neighbourhood. I think you've only got wind of only the negative in India...and it's just very much middle class too.
Liu
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:
in fact, it is very simple to judge how developed a economy is!

1.live. can most people live in decent houses?
are there decent household applances like AC, TV,and decent furnitures in their house?
can electricity-supply be assured?
2.Food. can people be free starvation?
can people afford to have dinners in restaurants when necessory?

3.cloth. are people are in decent dresses?

are people's dresses fashionable?
So why talk about GDP? From what i see you have an impression/ image. The world has moved to much more objective was of assessing wealth creation. I gave the example of Mr Narayanmurthy in Bangalore. His personal expenses are just 300 USD a month. He lives in a modest house. He is unfashionable. He's a billionaire many times over. Would you look down on him?

Gautam Buddha. Born a Prince. Every luxury in life. Abandons it to seek the Truth. In 5 centuries he influenced most of Asia's outlook for millenia to come.

Thats why we have more objecive ways to assess GDP and stuff. Impressions are always subjective. Yours and mine too.
guy, pls visit the houses of those common people.

are there AC, TV set ,washing machine and pesonal computere in their house?
have they pipe-water supply? how about their washing room and toilet?

how they go to work or school? by cars? by subways? or by buses?

can they afford decent dresses? can they be free of starvation?
harbans
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

guy, pls visit the houses of those common people.

are there AC, TV set ,washing machine and pesonal computere in their house?
So i visited their houses..and this is what i got:

PC's Percapita:

China: 40/ unit population
Malaysia: 196/ unit population

TV sets per capita:

China: 306/ unit population
Malasia: 450/ unit population

Car production/ capita:

China: 0.6/unit population
Malasia: 15/ uniot population

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/statistics

So how did you assume what you saw constituted the truth?

On the basis of what you assumed you judged you propagated a half truth. That is propaganda Liu. I stand ready to be corrected if indeed these figures are mistaken. But from what common items you mention..Malaysia is still ahead.
Liu
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:
guy, pls visit the houses of those common people.

are there AC, TV set ,washing machine and pesonal computere in their house?
So i visited their houses..and this is what i got:

PC's Percapita:

China: 40/ unit population
Malaysia: 196/ unit population

TV sets per capita:

China: 306/ unit population
Malasia: 450/ unit population

Car production/ capita:

China: 0.6/unit population
Malasia: 15/ uniot population

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/statistics

So how did you assume what you saw constituted the truth?

On the basis of what you assumed you judged you propagated a half truth. That is propaganda Liu. I stand ready to be corrected if indeed these figures are mistaken. But from what common items you mention..Malaysia is still ahead.
well, guy ,I compare malasia with coastal chinese provinces like Jiangsu,Guangdong,instead of the whole CHina. :D

washing machines, TV sets, video players,personal computers,AC ,refrigerators now have almost penetrated every chinese families in urban areas and coastal rural area. the penentrating rate in those areas now is saturated.

however, those householding appliances has still not penentrated into chinese families in rural inland china. Now ,chinese government is gifting subsidies to chinese rural pesants, in order to to encourage they to buy those electricity appliances AC, TVset,personal computers


and I posted that the most obvious gap between china and mature industrialized economies is car penentrating rate. ordiary chinese can not afford as easily cars as people in industrialized countries do.
Last edited by Liu on 15 Aug 2009 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
JwalaMukhi
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by JwalaMukhi »

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/200 ... klash.html
If the Chinese people had the right to express themselves, I am pretty sure that a majority would join the Tibetan protest raging against the backdrop of the 2008 Olympics. But so far, Chinese and Tibetan human rights activists have not echoed the call of several prominent Washington politicians - including Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John McCain (who is halfway there) - for the United States to boycott the Beijing Olympics' opening ceremonies.

Their reluctance reflects their keen understanding of how such gestures by the West are more likely to strengthen, rather than weaken, the hand of the Communist Party in China.

What we see now in the Tibetan provinces of China is not so much an ethnic confrontation between two nations, Tibetans and ethnic Chinese, as a revolt of China's poorest and most oppressed against the Communist Party's tyranny.

In fact, what is happening in Tibet takes place all over China. While 200 million Chinese enjoy an increasingly middle-class standard of living in the global economy, 1 billion of their countrymen are among the poorest and most exploited people on Earth. Throughout this vast country, in remote regions where no foreign visitors venture, rebellions of thousands upon thousands of farmers and workers regularly oppose the Communist security apparatus.
Every Chinese can see that the country is divided into two separate nations, the rich and the poor. The wealthy - a new middle class - comprise approximately 20% of the population. To join this new middle class, one needs to be a member of the Communist Party or of the military leadership, or at least to have connections with them; otherwise, poverty is a sealed fate.

The Chinese system is rooted in this division of society: At the top, the Communist bureaucracy controls everything - and grows more powerful by the day through the exploitation of the lower strata of Chinese society.
Mahendra
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Mahendra »

While you are at it Liu, can you please post some pictures that Phoonk Sundari clicked in Malaysia? I need them for an economic survey

Thanks
Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Bade »

Liu, next time you visit India do travel to the state of Kerala with 32 million people lead very comfortable lives. By all measures of development index, except perhaps shiny roads and 24/7 power on the grid when compared to a similar province in China, the state is doing ok. There is room for improvement of course. The same is probably true in most neighboring states too. People have decent houses with all amenities in small towns which do not even make prominent headlines even here on BR. I think you are grossly underestimating the quality of life there by just looking for shiny skyscrapers and expressways. That is only one measure of progress and prosperity.
JwalaMukhi
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by JwalaMukhi »

http://middlestage.blogspot.com/2007/04 ... oster.html
I do not suspect nothing much would have changed in two years.
China's sustained economic boom over the last twenty-five years and India's progress since liberalisation have generated a great deal of breathless talk - particularly in the financial press - about caged tigers waking, the balance of power in the world shifting, and the twenty-first century being "the Asian century". Much of this is just hot air.
And even that 9 per cent growth rate needs close examination. For one, if China is witnessing an unprecented migration of labour from the villages to the cities, much of that migration is forced: China has prospered because of its human rights violations, from using people as "human fodder"
.

All of this, he contends, renders comparisons of China's growth with that of India virtually meaningless, for a narrowly quantitative analysis does not reflect "non-economic values which matter like democracy, freedom of religion and respect for life".

But Sorman's visit to Shanghai reveals nothing but "a façade of modernity", a soulless centrally-planned city of glitzy appearances but poor sanitation, no freedom of speech, and an insipid cultural life. Most readers of Sorman's sobering book would take Mumbai over Shanghai any day.
:P
Last edited by JwalaMukhi on 15 Aug 2009 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
Liu
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

Bade wrote:Liu, next time you visit India do travel to the state of Kerala with 32 million people lead very comfortable lives. By all measures of development index, except perhaps shiny roads and 24/7 power on the grid when compared to a similar province in China, the state is doing ok. There is room for improvement of course. The same is probably true in most neighboring states too. People have decent houses with all amenities in small towns which do not even make prominent headlines even here on BR. I think you are grossly underestimating the quality of life there by just looking for shiny skyscrapers and expressways. That is only one measure of progress and prosperity.
well, as I posted, I am more interested to watch local people "live,food,dresses and transportation" than to watch shiny skyscrapers and expressways.

of course , without shiny expressways , convenient transportation is not possible. two sides are connected closely.
harbans
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

washing machines, TV sets, video players,personal computers,AC ,refrigerators now have almost penetrated every chinese families in urban areas and coastal rural area. the penentrating rate in those areas now is saturated.

however, those householding appliances has still not penentrated into chinese families in rural inland china. Now ,chinese government is gifting subsidies to chinese rural pesants, in order to to encourage they to buy those electricity appliances AC, TVset,personal computers
You're behaving like a noveau rich..look i got this toy and now i am better than him, her and those there. :mrgreen: But hey, have you been to Dharavi slums in Mumbai? Everyone has a TV, ACs, refrigerators, mobiles..and thats a slum.

And if you're comparing a province in China to Malaysia, why not compare say Gujarat to Malaysia? Gujarat would come way ahead in most of what you mention.

And Bade is right..i've biked down some of those regions, rural areas many years back, what i found was pretty good roads, nice houses with all amenities, did'nt see impoverished people. And i did a large swathe of Karnataka, north Kerala parts, South Maharashra..it must be even better now. These areas are also as quaint and beautiful as you can imagine. Don't just go by what you see..coz WYSINWYG :)
Liu
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

harbans wrote:
washing machines, TV sets, video players,personal computers,AC ,refrigerators now have almost penetrated every chinese families in urban areas and coastal rural area. the penentrating rate in those areas now is saturated.

however, those householding appliances has still not penentrated into chinese families in rural inland china. Now ,chinese government is gifting subsidies to chinese rural pesants, in order to to encourage they to buy those electricity appliances AC, TVset,personal computers
You're behaving like a noveau rich..look i got this toy and now i am better than him, her and those there. :mrgreen: But hey, have you been to Dharavi slums in Mumbai? Everyone has a TV, ACs, refrigerators, mobiles..and thats a slum.

And if you're comparing a province in China to Malaysia, why not compare say Gujarat to Malaysia? Gujarat would come way ahead in most of what you mention.

And Bade is right..i've biked down some of those regions, rural areas many years back, what i found was pretty good roads, nice houses with all amenities, did'nt see impoverished people. And i did a large swathe of Karnataka, north Kerala parts, South Maharashra..it must be even better now. These areas are also as quaint and beautiful as you can imagine. Don't just go by what you see..coz WYSINWYG :)
really?

but it is quite different from what the travelogues of chinese tourists say.

here are some travelogues about India ,full of pictures. I learnt a lot about India by reading them.
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 4092.shtml
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 7719.shtml
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 4263.shtml
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 0179.shtml
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/conten ... 2778.shtml

just in one website called "tianya, I can search hundreds of travelogues about India. they were all written by chinese tourists who once visited India. some of them are still live in India.
http://www.tianya.cn/New/PublicForum/Se ... 2%E9%D1%AF
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