India-China News and Discussion

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Nihat
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Nihat »

We can expect some adventurism from China on our frontier in the near future.
I think China knows better than that , as it is China is raising suspicions across Asia and not only In India.

Japan and SK are vary of it's spreading wings , any aggression against India will never lead to any credible gains in terms of territory but will greatly damage an already fragile reputation.

Chinese leadership has always been extremely pragmatic , expect it to raise controversial issues at unexpected time but military aggression I highly doubt.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by sum »

How is 140 killed and 800 wounded a "riot"?

Sounds like a friggin massacre.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... of-us.html

Chinas banks an acccident waiting to happen: ^^
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Suraj »

NRao wrote:
If China dares to talk about Arunachal Pradesh,then the whole issue of Tibetan sovereignity and Taiwanese independence will be opened afresh.
Just BTW, Taiwan - as the true China - ALSO claims Arunachal Pradesh.
It is nowhere near so simple. The 'Taiwanese' claim on Arunachal Pradesh is not a Taiwanese one, but actually a nationalist Chinese artifact, from the days of Sun Yat Sen, when the nationalists ruled over China, after the Qing Dynasty was overthrown and it's last emperor Pu Yi sent into exile. At that time, both the nationalists and the communists (under Mao) had a similar view of Chinese territorial claims.

After 1949, when the Chinese Civil War ended with Mao's Communists winning, the Nationalists for a period of time continued to assert their claim on all of China, and until 1971 (when the Nixon-Mao summit brought the PRC official recognition at the UN), they officially represented China.

With Taiwan since condemned into its current semi-official twilight zone state, any claim on their part over Tibet or Arunachal Pradesh is, at best, laughable nonsense. As much as they realize they cannot wish away China, and that their economic future is significantly tied to China, they'd like to cultivate India as a bargaining alternative. If India were to give them a deal for enhancement of political relations, they'd probably happily disavow any claim on Indian territory in return. Probably the only part of their political establishment that would hestitate is the older Pan Blue (Kuomintang) types. The Pan Greens are pro-independence natives as opposed to the Kuomintang types who migrated from China after the civil war, and they have no claim on Chinese territory, much less over Indian territory.

India loses nothing by bringing up the Taiwan lever against PRC, though to do so requires an assertive foreign policy stand. It also makes a lot of sense for India to upgrade political and economic ties to Taiwan, and particularly be friendly with their Pan Greens. Some say such ties would difficult because of cultural differences, but the Koreans are doing perfectly well in India right now, and if anything, cultural differences with them are even more significant. Maybe it's just reticence on their part. I had a Taiwanese acquaintance who, when I asked him about why his country can live with such semi-official status without asserting itself more, replied that in some ways he saw felt his own people were (verbatim) 'cowards', and just didn't want to rock the boat.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

April 14th, 2009 :: China / India Border Disputes: Arunachal Pradesh, India or South Tibet?
The political problems with the region go back to the days of the British Raj, and predate the current government of China’s authority. Indeed, Taiwan claims ownership also under its position as an alleged government of China.
China and Taiwan accordingly jointly claim Arunachal Pradesh as belonging to Tibet and being the province of “South Tibet” as neither signed off on the original border demarcation.
But,

June 28, 2007 :: India plays the Taiwan card
China has had an easy ride with India, especially concerning Arunachal Pradesh boundary negotiations, but as New Delhi plays the Taiwan card, Beijing's ride may get rougher.

Amid growing irritation with China on territorial questions, India last week signaled that it had diplomatic options for Taiwan that might not be comfortable for Beijing. Both New Delhi and Taipei deny that the visit of Ma Ying-Jeou, Taiwanese opposition leader and presidential candidate of the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) has anything to do with Sino-Indian relations.

There is no doubt, however, that Ma's visit, the first since KMT leader Chiang Kai-shek visited India in 1942, marks a deliberate but subtle shift in India's hitherto rigid "One China" policy. Neither its border war with China in 1962 nor its grievances against Beijing's enduring strategic partnership with Islamabad shook India's unwavering commitment to the "One China" policy.

After India established unofficial ties with Taiwan in 1992, New Delhi remained ultra cautious in its relationship with Taipei. Senior officials and political leaders were barred from visiting Taiwan even in their private capacity, and Taipei's trade office in New Delhi was forced to operate under severe restrictions.

While other major powers and Southeast Asian nations pursued a pragmatic engagement with Taiwan within the rubric of a "One China" policy, New Delhi seemed hesitant to embark on cooperative ventures with Taipei.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Suraj »

The 2point6billion website appears to be a private (British ?) blogger's site, with no attribution whatsoever to official Taiwanese position. It doesn't in any way negate what I said earlier - that the purported 'Taiwanese' claim is nothing more than a legacy claim dating back from Sun Yat-Sen's days. They also claim all of China, and a fat lot of good that's done them.

Just for argument, even if the KMT/Pan Blue part of Taiwanese government that remains pigheadedly nationalist and claims China, also claims Arunachal Pradesh, so what ? They hold no cards whatsoever here... 'accept our claim on Arunachal Pradesh, or else...'. Or else, what ?

This entire 'Taiwan also claims AP' argument has no substance. They might as well claim Kerala too, for it makes no difference either way.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

Suraj wrote:
This entire 'Taiwan also claims AP' argument has no substance. They might as well claim Kerala too, for it makes no difference either way.
That is not the point. There should be no official govt in the world which has claims over *any* Indian territory. Period.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Suraj »

Acharya wrote:That is not the point. There should be no official govt in the world which has claims over *any* Indian territory. Period.
Why not ? If it serves them to make a claim they should, just as we should if it serves our interests. What I'm asking here is, what's in it for them to claim anything belonging to us, when they crave recognition from other countries ?

Note that 'Taiwan' doesn't claim rule over China, just one hardline faction of one side of their political spectrum (Pan Blue). Most of the Pan Blues today are the kind who just prefer a Hong Kong like 'one country, two systems' autonomy if they unify. The other side of their political spectrum (Pan Green) doesn't even claim China, much less Arunachal Pradesh - they just want China to keep off altogether and let them be independent, rather than unify.

I see no reason for the prominence of this matter, and why we even care. We have no official ties with them, nor any official statement of claim from them. The botttom fell out of the bluster among the extreme RoC types in Pan Blue about reclaiming China (and by extension, Arunachal Pradesh), way back in 1971.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by VikramS »

India's policies towards China have been too passive and deferential. Perhaps it is a legacy of 1962. China on the other hand has been aggressively encircling India via its proxies. The support to TSP and the proliferation of the *BUM* clearly shines out but is just one piece of the puzzle. There needs to be a rapid overhaul of Indian thinking towards China.

In spite of the bluster and big talk, China has its internal schisms and trouble spots. However India does little to exploit those schisms. Though a lot is being written about how the US is begging China, what is not being talked about much is how the collapse in exports to the US is wreaking havoc in Chinese factories also. The unprecedented government stimulus is helping cushion the fall but that can last for so long. The Uighur-Han battles in Southern China were probably a result of the Uighir stealing our jobs fear.

On the external front, whether it is Taiwan, Vietnam or Japan, China's neighbors are wary of her rise and her empire building. Unlike the Europeans who exploited Asia on the economic front, China's vision involves demographic conquest also. Whether it is Tibet or the Xianjing, the ultimate goal is to destroy the local culture and rebuild the demographics by transplanting ethnic Chinese.

India needs a cohesive policy to use these schisms to limit the sphere of influence of the Chinese.

For reasons I fail to understand, India has not made any noise about Tibet. Tibet has historical cultural, linguistic, and religious links to India. Whether it is the Mansarovar or the Buddhist monks, Tibet has much stronger cultural ties to India. The Tibetan alphabet is almost the same as Devenagri Ka,Kha,Ga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_script They have nothing in common with the East Asian Pictographic scripts. Chinese occupation of Tibet is justified only by its use of brute force.

The mighty Himalayas have saved the Indic civilization from the Chinese onslaught, but Tibet should be a reminder of what the Chinese are willing to do. India needs to assert her right to dispute Chinese rule over Tibet and go beyond the Dalai Lama.

Sheltering the Dalai Lama has provided the hard-liners in China with the pretext to encircle India; India in return has not been able to do any damage to China using the Dalai Lama.

GOI needs to learn from Mao, and realize that the power flows from the barrel of the gun. The Dalai Lama is getting old and the next generation of Tibetans are unlikely to follow his style of passive protest. It is likely that some other foreign power will co-opt the younger Tibetan, who are willing to fight the PLA, and India will lose any leverage it has with the Tibetan resistance movement. But India will still be held responsible in the eyes of the Chinese.

Over the next two decades, China will become much older and the social burden of supporting an aging population will increase. India on the other hand will have a lot more younger productive people. It is perhaps time for India to start think about how to leverage this advantage.

The stated or unstated goal of India should be to push toward the creation of Tibet as a demilitarized buffer zone between the two great powers. That will end all Chinese claims on Arunachal Pradesh also. Instead of playing defense, India should start playing offense when it comes to China.

The first step should of course be to increase defense spending as a percentage of GDP to be at par with what China spends. In a multi-polar world where one great power can not be counted to maintain peace and order, it is imperative that second level powers be strong enough to withstand each other.

If the gap becomes too large, China's imperealistic tendencies will become even stronger. Their reaction to the IAF strengthening its defenses in the East is an indication of how they perceive themselves to be belonging to a different league. The PLA has not fought a war in a generation now, so it is hard to measure their competency. However, their fundamental attitudes are obvious. The only thing they respect is power, and is high time India starts building its muscle.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Suraj »

As an example of the historical attitudes to China, from nearby Vietnam - at the end of WW2, when the Japanese left Vietnam, essentially leaving Chaing Kai-Shek's Kuomintang in charge, the Vietminh under Ho Chi Minh instead negotiated for a return of the French (who had been defeated earlier by the Japanese) to Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh's explanation to his Vietminh, castigating them for the initial welcoming treatment to the KMT forces, and his preference for French rule was:
Ho Chi Minh wrote:Don't you realize what it means if the Chinese stay ? Don't you remember your history ? The last time the Chinese came, they stayed one thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying out. Nothing will be able to withstand world pressure for independence. They may stay for a while, but they will have to go, because the white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never leave. As for me, I prefer to smell French shit for five years, rather than Chinese shit for the rest of my life.
The French returned to Vietnam in 1945-46, hoping to quickly defeat the Vietminh nationalists. However, after years of internecine conflict, they were comprehensively defeated by Vo Nguyen Giap's forces at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, and withdrew from Vietnam.
Quote source:
Google books: War and Revolution in Vietnam: 1930-75
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by dinesha »

India Maintains Goal of China Deterrent
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=4039
NEW DELHI -- While India's immediate military aim is to build a potent strike force against Pakistan, it also harbors long-term plans to field a credible deterrent against China.

This reflects the fact that although military efforts to counter Pakistan, such as the strengthened deployment along India's western frontiers, are usually given precedence, the perceived threat from China remains very much on the radar.

A case in point is India's recent decision to buttress its military presence in the Northeast frontiers by basing its latest "air dominance" Russian Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters there. The move is meant to check China's buildup of military infrastructure in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) and south China.

Planned for more than two years now, the move finally happened last month when four of the jets formally touched down at Tezpur airbase in Assam. Official sources say that Tezpur will have two Sukhoi squadrons, for a total of 36 jets, in the near future. Chabua, also in Assam, is likely to be another base. Fully-loaded Sukhois can log a cruising-speed range of 3,200 km, allowing them to strike targets deep inside of China from the base in Tezpur.

India's military response has been due to a calculated Chinese buildup in the area over the past few years. It is believed that Beijing has built at least four airbases in TAR and another three or four in south China, all with India specifically in mind, while also keeping an eye on oil-transiting sea lanes further south.

China's energy stakes in the region will only rise in the near future, necessitating the military contingency plans. Starting in September 2009, China will begin to lay parallel oil and natural-gas pipelines from Myanmar's Arakan coast in the Bay of Bengal to China's Yunnan province. The 1,100-km gas pipeline will be fed by Myanmar's energy-rich Shwe gas fields.

China is also building multiple air, road and rail infrastructure along the 4,000-km Line of Control that marks the border with India, allowing for easy troop movement.

In addition to these conventional preparations, New Delhi believes that Beijing has built about 60 launch pads for nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles near Delingha and Da Qaidam in central China, within range of northern India and southern Russia.

In response, India has been developing the 3,500-km Agni-III ballistic missile, capable of nuclear payload delivery, which should be ready for operational deployment by 2011. Meanwhile, work is in progress for the maiden test of the 5,000-km Agni-V missile by mid-2010.

New Delhi has also announced the addition of two infantry divisions -- roughly 30,000 troops -- to the 10 mountain divisions already tabbed for defense against China. The move was to meet "future security challenges" posed by China. There are reports that a new artillery division equipped with 155mm howitzers guns and multiple-launch rocket systems will also be deployed soon.

Indeed, despite continuous diplomatic exchanges and burgeoning trade, the air of suspicion and rivalry between the two countries has not receded. For example, China recently objected to a $2.9 billion funding plan for India by the Asian Development Bank (ADB), due to the inclusion of projects in Arunachal Pradesh, areas of which China claims as its own. The ADB's charter mandates that it shall not interfere in the political affairs of any member and that only economic considerations shall be relevant to its decision. The agency approved the plan despite Beijing's objections, making it clear that it took no position on territorial disputes between its members.

To their credit, the two countries maintain a system of diplomatic and military exchanges to ensure that any potential incidents do not spin out of control. Continuous interaction and communication channels are in place, and the imminent establishment of a "red phone" hotline connecting the two countries' prime ministers was recently announced.

The appointment of a new Indian foreign secretary, Nirupama Rao, with considerable experience in India-China matters has been seen as an indicator of the importance being attached to such relations.

Burgeoning trade also remains an important buffer, even as the two countries compete aggressively to win energy blocks around the globe. Bilateral trade between India and China is expected to reach $60 billion in 2010. According to official statistics, Sino-Indian trade volume hit nearly $52 billion in 2008, with growth of 43 percent over the past eight years.

Recently the two nations conducted joint military exercises, and another one is scheduled for later this year. On August 7-8, special representatives of the two governments will meet to discuss the boundary issues that have affected ties for decades. Delhi and Beijing are also preparing to celebrate their 60th anniversary of diplomatic relations in 2010. A visit by Indian President Pratibha Patil to China and a return visit by Xi Jinping, China's vice-president, are being planned.

The two nations have also decided to devise common strategies on emerging global financial matters. For this, an early meeting of their bilateral Joint Economic Group has been proposed. The approach was firmed up when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chinese President Hu Jintao met on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit.

Yet, given the two countries' history of war, and with the U.S. keen to play up India as a regional counterweight to China, neither New Delhi nor Beijing is willing to compromise on the military front.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by jamwal »

Conquest of Tibet by General Zorawar Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Zorawar_Singh


Tibet expedition


With the Dogra ambitions clashing with the Punjabi empire in the west, Zorawar Singh turned his energies eastward, towards Tibet. As he had done in Ladakh, so too in the newly-conquered Baltistan, Zorawar recruited the Baltis in his army, which now had men from the Jammu hills, Kishtwar, and Ladakh. This five or six thousand strong army was divided into three columns that marched parallel into the unknown land of Tibet in May, 1841.

One column under the Ladakhi prince, Nono Sungnam, followed the course of the Indus River to its source. Another column of 300 men, under Ghulam Khan, marched along the mountains leading up to the Kailas Range and thus south of the Indus. Zorawar himself led 3,000 men along the plateau region where the vast and picturesque Pangong Lake is located. Sweeping all resistance before them, the three columns passed the Mansarovar Lake and converged at Gartok, defeating the small Tibetan force stationed there. The enemy commander fled to Taklakot but Zorawar stormed that fort on 6 September 1841. Envoys from Tibet now came to him as did agents of the Maharaja of Nepal, whose kingdom was only fifteen miles from Taklakot.

The fall of Taklakot finds mention in the report of the Chinese Imperial Resident, Meng Pao, at Lhasa:

On my arrival at Taklakot a force of only about 1,000 local troops could be mustered, which was divided and stationed as guards at different posts. A guard post was quickly established at a strategic pass near Taklakot to stop the invaders, but these local troops were not brave enough to fight off the Shen-Pa (Dogras) and fled at the approach of the invaders. The distance between Central Tibet and Taklakot is several thousand li…because of the cowardice of the local troops; our forces had to withdraw to the foot of the Tsa Mountain near the Mayum Pass. Reinforcements are essential in order to withstand these violent and unruly invaders.

Zorawar and his men now went on pilgrimage to Mansarovar and Mount Kailash. He had extended his communication and supply line over 450 miles of inhospitable terrain by building small forts and pickets along the way. The fort Chi-T’ang was built near Taklakot, where Mehta Basti Ram was put in command of 500 men, with 8 or 9 cannon. With the onset of winter all the passes were blocked and roads snowed in. The supplies for the Dogra army over such a long distance failed despite Zorawar’s meticulous preparations.

As the intense cold, coupled with the rain, snow and lightning continued for weeks upon weeks, many of the soldiers lost their fingers and toes to frostbite. Others starved to death, while some burnt the wooden stock of their muskets to warm themselves. The Tibetans and their Chinese allies regrouped and advanced to give battle, bypassing the Dogra fort of Chi-T’ang. Zorawar and his men met them at the Battle of To-yo on 12 December 1841—-in the early exchange of fire the Rajput general was wounded in his right shoulder but he grabbed a sword in his left hand. The Tibetan horsemen then charged the Dogra position and one of them thrust his lance in Zorawar Singh’s chest.

The Sino-Tibetan force then mopped up the other garrisons of the Dogras and advanced on Ladakh, now determined to conquer it and add it to the Imperial Chinese dominions. However the force under Mehta Basti Ram stood a siege for several weeks at Chi-T’ang before escaping with 240 men across the Himalayas to the British post of Almora. Within Ladakh the Sino-Tibetan army laid siege to Leh, when reinforcements under Diwan Hari Chand and Wazir Ratnu came from Jammu and repulsed them. The Tibetan fortifications at Drangtse were flooded when the Dogras dammed up the river. On open ground, the Chinese and Tibetans were chased to Chushul. The climactic Battle of Chushul (August, 1842) was fought and won by the Dogras who executed the enemy general to avenge the death of Zorawar Singh.


The Treaty of Chushul


“On this auspicious occasion, the second day of the month Asuj in the year 1899 we —- the officers of Lhasa, viz. firstly, Kalon Sukanwala, and secondly Bakshi Sapju, commander of the forces of the Empire of China, on the one hand, and Dewan Hari Chand and Wazir Ratnu, on behalf of Raja Gulab Singh, on the other —- agree together and swear before God that the friendship between Raja Gulab Singh and the Emperor of China and Lama Guru Sahib Lassawala will be kept and observed till eternity; for the traffic in shawl, pasham, and tea. We will observe our pledge to God, Gayatri, and Pasi. Wazir Mian Khusal Chu is witness.”
Why can't India claim atleast a part of Tibet conquered by General Zorawar Singh, next time Chinese lay claim to Arunachal and Aksai Chin ?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Avinash R »

India downplays Chinese hate campaign
Source: ANI
Published: July 08

Unscathed by a reported hate campaign launched by Chinese intellectuals and civil society on a internet blogs and opinion columns on websites and other media outlets, Indian Government sources have played down the Chinese diatribe.

"There are elements in China who have their own view on India's growth which is not necessarily the view of Beijing top government," said one source.

India and China share a mature relationship and Chinese President Hu Jintao had a very substantive meeting with the Indian Prime Minister in Yekaterinburg in Russia, the source further added.

Recently, Beijing has objected to the funding of watershed projects in India's Arunachal Pradesh, which China claims is its territory. It is even attempting to block the sanctioning of Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Maulana Masood Azhar as a terrorist at the United Nations Security Council.

India is undeterred and officials say that both New Delhi and Beijing are the two big powers of Asia and enjoy good relations. Infact, Special Representatives of both countries will be resuming border talks in August this year. Both India and China are also members of the G5 outreach summit and have a convergence on a host of issues, including carbon emission, climate change and protectionism. Therefore, New Delhi has cautiously downplayed the Chinese hate campaign.
Chinese govt sides with terrorists, is hostile towards indian economic progress, tries to grab indian territory and then asks it's idiotic citizens to launch hate campaign against india. Surely economic downturn has hurt the largest chinese corporation, the CCP, very hard.

Now time for jholawalla Pallavi iyer to step in and tell us indians that all chinese are lovely and cuddly as a panda and they want good relations onlee.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Yes,ignore the Chinese ranting and raving just like dear old Pandit Nehru,whom it must be said,was betrayed by the Chinese.However,in retrospect,Nehru's betrayal was a blessing in disguise,for we just managed to modernise and expand our armed forces to halt Pak's Kashmi land grab in '65.Had the Chinese chosen to coordinate their attack along with Pak,it would've been a total catastrophe for India.Fighting a war on two fronts unprepared and underarmed,we would've lost the valley and the territory that China now occupies.The Chinese probably see in the genial elder economist MMS,another "weak Nehru" and are plotting to teach us another lesson.At that time,they resented India's standing in world affairs which was due to Nehru's charismatic foreign policy and his stature as an empire destroyer.Today,China resents India as a rising global economic power,which poses an alternative to China for foreign investment that keeps China able to rapidly modrenise its military power.China is waiting for the right time to unleash another attack against india,using as an internal proxy the Naxalites,who are expanding the scope and scale of theri attacks against the Indian state.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by vsudhir »

"We have put across (to China) in the strongest diplomatic language possible that Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India."
S.M. Krishna
External Affairs Minister
link
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RamaY »

vsudhir wrote:
"We have put across (to China) in the strongest diplomatic language possible that Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India."
S.M. Krishna
External Affairs Minister
link
It is like road signs in massaland...

First sign: Left lane ends in 2000ft
Second Sign: Merge Right
Third Sign: /|

:rotfl:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

One of the better things that happened to us during 2009 was the commies getting reduced to a minor irritant from being a major influence on foreign policy.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by arunsrinivasan »

India, China woo Japan on ADB's Arunachal loan
The diplomatic tug of war between India and China over the $60 million loan from the Asian Development Bank, or ADB, for Arunachal Pradesh has entered a new arena: Japan.

Both India and China are trying to win over Asia’s largest economy, one of the largest donors to the Manila-based multilateral lending institution.

China does not want ADB to provide money for Arunachal, parts of which it claims as its territory. According to top sources in the United Progressive Alliance government at the Centre, Chinese authorities are seeking Japan’s help to prevent ADB from issuing “public notification” of its approval of the loan for Arunachal Pradesh.

Recently, ADB overruled China’s objection and approved a $60 million loan for a watershed development project in Arunachal. It is a part of its $2.9 billion India development plan for three years to 2012.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee and Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon are the key players formulating the diplomatic response to China. On Wednesday night, Menon, currently in Rome along with the Prime Minister for the G8 summit, had a chat with Mukherjee in Delhi to discuss the situation. Japan Prime Minister Taro Aso was also in Rome. According to sources, India has already placed its case before the Aso administration.

If the Chinese authorities succeed in their efforts, it will be a diplomatic embarrassment for India and jeopardise the future of the Arunachal project.

China was initially successful when it forced the postponement of an ADB Board meeting to decide on the plan. After China raised objections, ADB asked India to resolve the matter “bilaterally”. New Delhi reacted sharply and said that it would scrap the entire plan but not remove Arunachal from the project.

Last month the ADB Board overlooked its objections and approved the $2.9 billion plan for India. “The Asian Development Bank, regardless of the major concerns of China, approved the India Country Partnership strategy, which involves the territorial dispute between China and India,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang had said after the board meeting.

China also said that the Manila-based bank should not interfere in the “political issues of its members”.

Giving the current status of the Arunachal project in Parliament today, Foreign Minister SM Krishna said: “China did not endorse the Country Partnership Strategy (CPS) 2009-12 for India at the Board of ADB on the ground that the proposed India CPS involved technical assistance funding for the Flood and River Erosion Management Project in Arunachal Pradesh, which China claims is its territory.”

India had told ADB and all member countries including the US, Japan, Australia, Canada, Indonesia, Korea, Malaysia, the Philippines, Germany and Italy that the CPS was not a political document and it did not make any judgement as to the legal or other status of any territory.

Under CPS, ADB assists member countries through technical assistance grants and projects loans.

“China's objection on political grounds is a clear violation of ADB's charter, which prohibits the bank from evaluating any proposal on grounds other than economic,” the minister said. “India's CPS was discussed in the meeting of the Board of Executive Directors of the ADB on June 15 and all member countries except China supported the document.

Krishna said New Delhi had told the ADB member nations, including China, that Arunachal Pradesh was “an integral part of India and its status is not negotiable”.
It makes one (me at least ;) ) wonder where this India - China tug of war will end?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Avinash R »

^ It's not a tug of war, It's china baring it's imperialistic agenda. Say hello to yellow emperor.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

NRao
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

VinodTK wrote:Cross Posting from Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Why China may attack India by 2012

Indian might met with Chinese threats
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Rony »

India should urge China to stop violence in Xinjiang: BSP
New Delhi, July 10 (IANS) Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) MP Shafiqur Rahman Barq Friday said the Indian government should appeal to the Chinese government to stop the ethnic violence in Urumqi city of Muslim-dominated Xinjiang province of China.

“Our government should appeal to the Chinese government to stop the ongoing violence in Urumqi city,” Barq told IANS.

Barq also said that he “will raise the issue in parliament”.

At least 156 people have been killed in Xinjiang in the ethnic violence between minority Muslim Uighur community and the majority Hans.

However,the Communist Party of India (CPI) said that it is an “internal matter of China”.Shamim Faizi, national secretary of CPI, said: “When you say that other countries should not interfere in the internal affairs of India, how can you expect me to comment on such issues of China?”

The riots started in Urumqi, capital of the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, Sunday when a group of protesters demanded an investigation into the death of two Uighurs, who were killed in a fight with Han Chinese workers at a toy factory.

Chinese authorities say around 1,500 people have been arrested for violence.

Although officials put the toll at 156, Uighur groups put the figure at 840 dead.
Gerard
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Gerard »

VinodTK
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by VinodTK »

The recent Chinese words and actions are bad news for India. In 1962 Chinese warned India repeatedly before the invasion, and Indian politicians ignored all the warnings:
- PLA built roads up to the border
- Frequent incursions
- Demolition of Indian pickets,
- Warning India of dire consequences via the communist party newspapers, and
eventually the invasion.

If you notice the same thing is happening now, Chinese have built roads and laying railway lines to up the border, the incursions have increased, and the Communist party papers are telling India openly as to what will happen to India.

Indian politicians (does not matter as to which party thy belong to) are not doing much. By placing 4 SU-MKI’s, opening old runways, and in the process of raising 2 new divisions is not even a semblance of a response. China will match each SU30-MKI with a squadron of SU-27’s; it has three hundred thousand troops, who can be supplied up to the border. Our poor jawans have to hike the last ten to thirteen kilometers by foot to the border.

Common man in India has no clue as to what is happening in the northeast, and the politicians are not informing the nation or preparing it for the worst-case scenario. I have a feeling the Chinese will pick winter of 2010 or 2011 (No I m not the Oracle at Delphi; just a terrible gut feeling) to attack India.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

GoI is aware, but, perhaps not as prepared as they ought to be. What else is new?

India wary of Sino-Pak strategic link-up in PoK
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

I guess action will be on the eastern side(aksai chin front). Chinese may follow what Mao said, look east and hit west(sorry dont remember the exact words).

One more reason why China may want do this is to stem renegade Pakis influence in Xinjiang.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

VTK,

Interesting.

Well, there is the chance that Chicom is trying to ensure India does not play any tricks WRT TSP.

Could the US have said something to ensure India complies with request to remove troops from K?

India is very good at reacting. So, China better be prepared too.

Not to toot: 2008 :: The border no longer dominates the show
China knows that seizing Arunachal by force is no longer an option. India is a nuclear power. To use force would risk an atomic conflict. Moreover, our soldiers have conventional superiority in the area -- 11 Mountain Divisions of 220,000 crack Indian troops confront lesser trained 400,000 members of the People's Liberation Army. Twenty years ago, the PLA backed off in Arunachal after then army chief the legendary General K Sundarji's Operation Checkerboard military exercise reveal a 10: 1 kill ratio in the Indian Army's favour.
China better be prepared too.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

But, seriously, IF China starts something in AP, India must take (under any pretext) Chittagong tract.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by VinodTK »

NRao wrote:But, seriously, IF China starts something in AP, India must take (under any pretext) Chittagong tract.

If AP is taken by China, India can kiss goodbye to the eastern states of Nagaland, Manipur, Mizoram, and Tripura. If I were betting person I would say every thing east of west Bengal would be gone. At that point what will India do with Chittagong tract? India should have kept Chittagong tract after the liberation of BD.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by VinodTK »

NRao wrote:
Well, there is the chance that Chicom is trying to ensure India does not play any tricks WRT TSP.

Could the US have said something to ensure India complies with request to remove troops from K?

India is very good at reacting. So, China better be prepared too.
I do not think China will go out of its way to help TSP, when India mobilized its troops on the western border after the parliament attack, the Chinese did nothing to give any moral or military support to TSP. China will not spend its wealth and spill it blood for TSP.

China wants US to be stuck in Afghanistan, China will not do any thing that might help US succeed and exit from Afghanistan.

Mr. Rao, hope and pray you are right. If we go by the past history I feel worried/concerned.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

We are already at War with China and Pak.

Study what is happening in the country today and one will find that a two-front proxy war through jehadis in J&K and the Naxalites in the rest of the country has begun and is in the process of multiplying in intensity.Is the GOI,especially our babudom seized of the gravity of the situ?

I don't know if the IDR and we are plugged into the same thoughtwaves,but the writing is on the wall.Chinese moves and its internal situation is rapdily expanding into a future crisis for India.I don't know if members saw this morning's papers where PC has said that the GOI will have to "pull out" tens of thousands of troops from J&K to deal with the Naxalite hit areas! Now this fits perfectly into the Sino-Pak strategy.The Naxalites are China's 5th column wihtin India,where it is attempting to engineer another internal conflict of the kind that plagued Nepal and saw its monarchy destroyed.Using the Naxalites,we have to reduce our troop strength in J&K just as Pak is sending in more and more jehadists,making it more difficult for us to deal with conflict on two fronts.The captured Paki terrorist and the revelations of the plot to attack the Baghliar dam,indicate that far from downsizing terror against India,it is inn fact accelerating!

I do not know what good will come out of MMS meeting his Paki counterpart shortly,when the puppetmaster is in Beijing and cares a fiddle about India.It correctly sees that a genial old World Bank economist heading an aging political leadership, is no threat to it whatsoever and the time is ripe to teach India another lesson.In doing so when MMS is at the helm,perhaps not beyond another two years,as his health is in serious question beyond that time and the other geriatrics of the GOI will be on their last legs too.The Chinese also hope thereby to cripple the fortunes of the rising son,Rahul Gandhi,and the perpetuation of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty.Correctly perceiving Rahul a long time threat to China,as his youth,lineage and support of the Congress party will make him perhaps the most influential leader in India in the future,Rahul might very well follow the way of his father Rajiv in dealing proactively with regional issues (examples of Sri Lanka and the Maldives coup) and global nuclear disarmament,where his radical solution was shot down by the nuclear hypocrasies.In any global nuclear arms reduction treaty,China will suffer more than the other nuclear powers because of their technological superiority both industrially and militarily in conventional weaponry and precision guided munitions making N-weapons obsolete for certain targets.In addition,India's IT prowess is of major concern to China which fears that it will have little to offer the international economy with its shrinking exports,other than large scale imports of material and food to keep its population quiet.

What however irks China the most is the fact that India has emerged as its equal in global perception and will from all available evidence and statements from the majority of major global powers,become a member of the enlarged UNSC.This is absolute anathema to China which wants India nowhere at the same table,even though Nehru while morally correct,when India was offfered the seat of Formosa/Taiwan by the US,disastrously gave it away to the PRC.Defeating India in a sharp conflict will be China's way of telling the world that India is unfit to take its rightful place at the "high table".The current US president is still basking in his glory as the first Afro-American president of the US and has his hands full of other pressing issues like Iraq and Afghanistan.There is no way that his administration,less friendly to India than that of Bush & co.,to come to India's aid when attacked by China.China in concert with Pak,seizing large areas of Indian territory will effectively destroy India's image worldwide.India's growing modernisation of its armed forces,though much delayed is happening and the Chinese reasoning is that it would be better if they attacked sooner rather than later.We are told that China has at least 30 divisions on the border,which can be rapidly augmented through the Tibetan railway.The issue of retaking Taiwan becomes less important when India is viewed as its chief challenger for Asian leadership this century.

For several years I've been writing about China's moves in the IOR region.The recent news and fears of the GOI about a Sino-Pak military tieup in the occupied areas of Aksai Chin reveals China's eventual moves towards the Gulf,through Pakistan to safeguard its supplies as well as having a spoiler presence at the exit point of the world's most important oil supplies.The chaos in pak is accelerating China's regional moves on the chessboard,to put its masterplan into action before events make it impossible or more difficult.

The writing is on the wall,will MMS & co. read it and correctly understand its meaning?
Last edited by Philip on 13 Jul 2009 16:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

Philip wrote:

What however irks China the most is the fact that India has emerged as its equal in global perception and will from all available evidence and statements from the majority of major global powers,become a member of the enlarged UNSC.This is absolute anathema to China which wants India nowhere at the same table,even though Nehru while morally correct,when India was offfered the seat of Formosa/Taiwan by the US,disastrously gave it away to the PRC.
They do not see India in the same level as China in the world scene. What they are worried is that China will go backwards with the global economic slump and make its standing less than projected and India will be seen as the stable one.

This image is terrifying to them
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

Good post Phillipji
What however irks China the most is the fact that India has emerged as its equal in global perception and will from all available evidence and statements from the majority of major global powers,become a member of the enlarged UNSC.This is absolute anathema to China which wants India nowhere at the same table,even though Nehru while morally correct,when India was offfered the seat of Formosa/Taiwan by the US,disastrously gave it away to the PRC.
Indeed all through the 90's and almost till now, everwhere you see China is being projected as 21'st Centuries leader. Bush Senior, Bill Clinton sucked up to China even when China must have been a 3rd of India's economic size today. Every leader worth will make 10 trips to China before making a cursory one to India. Even today, Hossains adminstration has literally treated us as an insignificant 3rd world entity. Look at common Chinese forums and the perceptions they carry. Look at comments in general newspaper columns that dare srike a comparison with China, we are consistently reminded we are 4 times lesser in size than China etc etc..however deep inside this revulsion is generated possibly by realtime fear that indeed in the future the opposite may happen. That China's century and influence may actually be offset by India's rise..and India's example of pluralist, tolerant and democratic tradition may hit at the CCPs/ PLAs hold on China itself.

Almost 3 millenia ago, Asia including China stared benefitting from and assimilating Indian cultural and spiritual tradition..and in present times just when China and the Middle Kingdom had almost proved to themselves and the world, that they are going to be the undisputed authoratarian hegemon in Asia and the world, India pops out of nowhere and provides an alternative example in development, thats not only going to be acceptable to many developing countries around the world, but may sow the seeds in ending the Maoist/ PLA/ CCP legacy in China itself. Now how irritating is that? That must not happen under any circumstance!
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Webmasters,can this thread and the PRC one be merged,as both appear to be on parallel lines of thought? We have another one on the Uighar issue,which perhaps could be merged with the PRC one alternatively.Three on the PRC flatters them!

The Chinese aggro at the mometn,with Rio Tinto,Uighars,etc., spells deep trouble for the globe,as the Middle Kingdom's misplaced superiority complex is now displaying itself as an acute inferiority complex brought on by current woes,with a sudden hard landing on its glorified backside.In its pain,the unltra sensitive leadership will try to find scapegoats abroad and resort to adventurism to instill a patriotic spirit in the suffering population.At the oment the "Weegers" are at the receiving end,but once the Muslim states in shock at China's savagery and blatant racism,bestir themselves and retaliate in some form,diplomatic or covert,it will look for other scapegoats from its list of "all-weather" enemies like India.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Well Philip - last I heard China was beging "frindly nations" to "take a stand" on the weegurs. I suppose they mean Pakistan.

Pakistan must hang its holiest and most pious to please the Chicoms.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

"Naxal" have been in India since, what, 60s?

Kashimiri Jihadis since early 90s.

Pulling out troops from kashmir - these are COIN right? Not the ones along the border. IF true, then it serves two purposes. It supports the US "request" to draw down troops in Kashmir and if at all increases those to fight the Naxals.

Having said that I very much doubt that this GoI is giving in into either the US or China. Increasing troops along the Chinese border, opening forward air bases all across the Chinese border, etc is hardly an indication of giving in. MMS - for what it is worth - had stated that Naxals pose the greatest threat - about 1.5 years ago.

On the eco front too MMS has allocated a ton of funds and is in the process of changing the mechanism in which these funds get to the poor man. Roads worth $95 billion are in the pipeline (foreigners have been tapped to assist in road building).

IF (BIG if) all these work, we should see a much better ground situation.

In fact, I am hoping that Pakis will settle down too. (yeah, and the sun may never rise.)
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

True,we are bestirring ourselves,but the amount of work is enormous and we are two decades behind China in building up our infrastructure in the N-East.The COIN troops are sorely needed as the Pakis appear to be able to infiltrate terrorists regularly across the border and if the tale of secret tunnels is true,then once they've crossed the border,they will have a field day unless mobile COIN troops are available who are highly mobile and possess the required equipment and firepower needed.In recent times,the encounters have gone on for days in some cases.I wonder why so.What prevents the army from using attack helos and even aircraft if need be to flush out and decimate terrorists once they've been trapped? It would lower the risk of infantry troops who have been taking casualties regularly.

In the Sino-sectors,the Chinese will try and destroy our infrastruicture and bases by using short and medium range tactical missiles right from the outset,In any future spat with China,the GOI will have to induct the IAF right from the beginning to win dominance over the batlefield and destroy the invading forces and the command centres.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Philip,

What you are suggesting is India abandon chai-biscut. Is that ever possible?

IMHO, Indians - in general - lack the ability to set very high goals (when they do they do wonders - ISRO).

However, a very common attribute of us Indians is we are very good at being reactive. So, with that in mind, it is good that Pakis are building tunnels. Now we can expect babus/netas to fund technologies from abroad to counter these dastardly Paki tactics (from decades ago may I add).

It is good that China is building those roads and rail lines in COT. When they are a threat+++ then India will react (granted with leaving the jawans to walk the last 13 Kms, instead of 50 Kms).

What you are saying is that India is WAY behind the curve. So what else is new? India had a parallel underground economy when I left India. Imagine if that exists today!!!!! (Which I think it does.) India is very lucky to have stupid neighbours who are irritating. But, India is also very, very lucky that they have people that will - at the right time - cover up for stupid Indians (Kargil).

So, I am not that concerned about China or Pakistan. It is just a matter of more funds (like the nuclear deal and reprocessing) when the time comes. So, what else is new?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

This is the first time after the def min GF naming China as enemy no. 1 and the revelation of Chain of Pearl strategy, an artcile of this kind is given such publicity. After the Kargil war, these kind of talks are nothing new and are very common in Strategic and defence circles but this is the first time such a talk is given unprecedented publicity. Thats keep me wonder whats up ?

Well, this could be just a tit for tat for the recent Chinese newspaper talk about India being aggresive. Or it could be just that, Indian Gov is preparing the people for such an event. Considering the history of our MMS Gov response in these type of the circumstances, coming open on this topic triggering a national level debate gvies me the impression that Gov is letting the people come to terms with Chinese aggression.
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