Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

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enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Very interesting fact about the People's Paradise. No comment on implications.

Apparently the whole festivities began after a rumor spread on the internet that 2 Han wimmens had been raped by Uighurs (no basis for that story) but a gang of Handiots beat up and killed two Uighur toy-factory workers. (Source: NPR). Now read on:

From above:
The riots, which began when a peaceful protest by ethnic Uighurs spiralled out of control on Sunday, appear to be increasingly fuelled by wild rumours spread over the internet and by word of mouth.

Local Uighurs said they had heard that Han Chinese factory workers in Guangdong had killed 600 Uighurs and chopped them into small pieces.

Others claimed that 400 Uighur women had been raped by Han Chinese.
"Our menfolk will never forgive this," said one Uighur woman.


You gotta wonder who sits there and does these counts, like old claim by the Pakis counting the "200,000 Kashmiris protesting in the village", where shiv counted the "200,000", all 23 of them.

The NPR report also had voice recordings of Hans screaming:
Little babies 6 months old, and 80-year-old women, were stomped to death by these Uighurs! We cannot sit still and take this! The authorities have failed to protect us! We must have revenge!

Power of Information, amplified by Technology. :eek: :shock: :roll:

Say, are there a lot of provinces with substantial non-Han populations in the Peopre's Lebubric?
ramana
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by ramana »

All is needed is Teesta Setelvad and her videos commentaries.
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

And Arundhati Roy's stories of pregnant Uighur wimmens (who happened to be watching movies in New York at the time) being disemboweled in the streets of Xinjiang.
SwamyG
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by SwamyG »

And the "foreign hand" is that of .....? How much of this is related to China making noises about alternate global reserve currency? Can we expect something in Russia soon?
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

So here is my Authoritative Up-to-Date EyeWitness Account:
According to reliable sources who insisted on anonymity because they are not permitted to speak to the media, over 1,700,000 Uighurs have already been killed, and some 800,000,000 Uighur women have been gang-raped 600 time each by Chinese Army soldiers in the past week.

Hundreds of pregnant Han and Uighur women were disemboweled, and thousands of these were later arrested. 3000 fire trucks have been ordered into the streets of Urumqi, not to put out fires but to wash the blood from the streets.

200 Chinese tanks were immobilized after their tank treads became clogged up with human remains, following their action against the students peacefully staging a sit-in outside Xinjiang Institute of Integral Studies in Urumqui.
ramana
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by ramana »

I thought it would be otherway round. its the Han how would evoke A Roy's empathy. We on BRF are for victims onlee.
----------
SwamyG, From all accounts PRC handlig of the Uighers was with a heavy hand and Eastern Turkestan was a powder keg waiting to explode. So even if the spark was from outside there is fuel locally fed by PRC mishandling. Dont look at Uighers thru green glasses. To me it looks like officially sanctioned Han reaction to make the Uighers cower.


------------

OK. can we limit to facts please. I had to edit harbans spin and respones to it. :((
Anujan
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Anujan »

Arun_S wrote:What is Uigher's villages/towns today were very closely linked to Indic Kashmir and Hindu religion. Go on Google maps Google-Earth and see the names of towns there.
There are numerous references to this. Xinjiang/Tajik/Kyrgz/Turkmen belong to the Kingdom of Kamboja, Parama-Kambojas and Rishikas

Kambojas occupy a very prominent place in Mahabharata. Kambojas are said to be excellent horsemen, charioteers and sword fighters and their kingdom is north of "Aswaka Stana" (Place of horses - Afghanistan ?) between Syr Darya and Amu Darya (Transoxania, current day Tajik/Kyrgz/Xinjiang). Along with Tukharas (turkmenistan ?) they are invincible in battle, but were killed in the thousands by Satyaki.

Satyaki says of the Kambojas to Yudhishtira: "O King, the Kambojas are the finest among the chariot warriors ! Their charge is like that of wild elephants. The Kambojas are brave, learned, and devoted to the science of weapons and warfare. They are highly united and co-ordinated in their battles". On the fourteenth day, Arjuna kills Sudakshina, the ruler of Kambojas after a terrible battle.

After Mahabharata is won, Arjuna defeats the Kashmiras, turns east and captures the Sivi kingdom (Of the famous Sibi Chakravarthi story, whereby sibi gives a pound of flesh to save a pigeon) and Oddiyana (Sivi and Oddiyana was called by fahien as So-ho-to, or current day Swat), and then turns north, leads a small mobile force to fight the cavalry warriors of Daradas (Gilgit) and Kamboja (Transoxania), the Parama-Kambojas (eastern transoxania) and Rishikas (Xinjiang). He also defeats the raiders and robbers near Swat :lol:
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Gee! It sounds like all Indian epics were based in Pakistan and China? :(( It's a good thing this was all 1,800,000,000 years ago.

OK, PLS DON'T BAN ME! Running Outta here now!
hnair
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by hnair »

See if G. S-o-r-o-s was around. he seems to have taken on the role of the Silver Surfer from Marvel Comics Universe :evil:

Once some trade concession is wrung out of Great Hall, these young Ui-uirs are going to be taken for a ride and then left to die in remote gulags. Same like those with leadership potential, that led the recent Iranian turmoils (if anyone followed the last uprising against the ayatollahs a few years ago, all the youth leaders of that effort have been betrayed and wiped out or rounded up by the authorities).

This should have been an internal matter of China, but the non-representative Chinese govt will mess this up for generations to come.
shiv
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Re: PRC Political News & Discussions

Post by shiv »

vsudhir wrote: Also, would be nice if deoband can be coaxed into making some utterances against the CPI-M supported PRC.

I realize this was said in jest - but it should not happen. People with religion should be allowed to lie among their dung beetles and not stirred up to reveal the fresh, moist dung under the dried crust.
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

From around 5% in the early 1960s, the proportion of Han in Xinjiang shot up rapidly and now stands at more than 40%.

Alongside this, the Chinese government focused its attention on Maoist principles of re-education, particularly in terms of dealing with Islamic schools of thought. The flow of reactionary material from other Turkic peoples was proscribed, even as the government enhanced the facilities for education in sciences. Positive discrimination in favor of Uighur who could assimilate, ie, speak and read Putonghua (Mandarin), also played a big part in dividing support among the peoples for any broad movement against the central government..........

Strategically, the strong support for Pakistan shown by China helped to ensure that many of its actions against Muslim citizens did not get a voice, nor did militants have much success in bypassing Pakistani armed forces to supply materials to the Uighur separatists.....
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IE05Df01.html
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

The 2000 Census indicates that the Uighurs are 45.21% of the Xinjaing population and the Hans are 40.58%!!

That is the extent of Hanisation!

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6304143/Xinjiang
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

This is a lot worse than has been reported. Bad enough for this to happen:
China's Hu skips G8 to deal with Xinjiang riots
..... The Chinese Foreign Ministry said on its website that Hu had left for China "due to the situation" in energy-rich Xinjiang, which borders central Asia, where 1,080 were people have been injured and 1,434 arrested in unrest between Han Chinese and Muslim Uighurs since Sunday.
They didn't bat an eyelid as they smashed the Tibetans in full view of the world, but the guy drops out of a critical economic summit in the middle of a huge economic crisis - at a time when China could grab a huge share of power because it is holding so much of US dollar debt.

Was he ORDERED home by the junta?
SwamyG
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by SwamyG »

ramana: yes the powder has been dry - in fact for many decades. Why is it being lit now? After joining BRF; if a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil, I wonder why is it flapping.
Last edited by SwamyG on 08 Jul 2009 07:17, edited 2 times in total.
Virupaksha
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Virupaksha »

RayC wrote:The 2000 Census indicates that the Uighurs are 45.21% of the Xinjaing population and the Hans are 40.58%!!

That is the extent of Hanisation!

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6304143/Xinjiang
and our govt says keep article 370 :evil: A few more years of the same, there will be no "Xinjiaing" and therefore no Uighur movement.
Muppalla
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Muppalla »

As per NPR report, the locals are paid substantially less than the hans in this area. As per China's statistics the per capita income of this area is higher than the national average.
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

I would suggest that all this boundless sympathy / fellowship for the Uighurs may be slightly misplaced. The buggers seem to be no more deserving of sympathy than, say, the rioters of Australia beating up on Indian students, or the Fijian thugs robbing the Indian-descent people of Fiji, or the muggers of Jamaica and Trinidad and Guyana, or the Pakis in Srinagar.

The difference is that unlike India, when lazy, loserville "minorities" turn violent and rob, rape and loot, and otherwise mess up the peaceful productive life of the People's Republic and the productive citizens in China, the Chinese Law Enforcement reaction is that they arrest, torture and kill the goons. No wishy-washy stuff. That's why they are the Duniya's No. 1 SuperPower.
rsingh
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by rsingh »

narayanan Sar I wonder if your account is being used by some chini bhai...........or it is your real face. Why you are bent on doing harakiri like other CPI komladess? Talk sense man.
KLNMurthy
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by KLNMurthy »

rsingh wrote:http://karakuyash.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html

More information about Uyghurs

Need help to translate this into English .........look like talking about America and India
Indianlar bilen uyghur ejdadliri otturisida qanchilik baghlinish bar?

[
american indians?
Philip
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Philip »

Understanding the "weegers" as the Hans describe them,is to understand how China treats its ethnic minorities.Merge and lose your identity voluntarily with the Hans or else the Hans will help you lose it! As was with the Tibetans,so it is now with the Uighurs.The "Hans" are the modern equivalent of the "Huns" of yore.Rampage and rape are second nature to the Hans who have the blessings of the PRC state behind them.They are the ethnic stormtroopers,the cutting edge of the Chinese cultural war against any group who want to preserve their special identity that does not have the approval of the state.The PRC is surely living in interesting times.
China's Uighur conundrumFor years, Beijing has talked up the threat of ethnic separatism in Xinjiang. Is reality finally catching up with the story?

John Gittings
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 7 July 2009
Until now, it has been Beijing that talked up the threat of ethnic separatism in its far north-west region of Xinjiang, while the attitude of most of the Muslim Uighur population has been one of quiet – though unhappy – acceptance of Chinese rule. But the latest outbreak of violence in the regional capital of Urumqi is unprecedented and suggests that Uighur resentment at heavy-handed Chinese policies has begun to boil over. For Uighurs to challenge the authorities in what has become a largely Chinese city is even more remarkable.

Xinjiang shares with Tibet a history of only intermittent control from Beijing and the misfortune of being seen by the Chinese as a strategic buffer region against its neighbours. There were two short-lived independent "East Turkestan" republics in the 1930s and 1940s – the second under strong Soviet influence. After the 1949 Chinese communist victory, Beijing quickly moved thousands of soldiers to set up paramilitary state farms: Xinjiang became a favoured location for penal centres, and later on for Red Guards who were "sent down to the countryside". After subsequent waves of migration, Han Chinese now make up 40% of the population, not much less than the 47% of Uighurs.

I vividly remember a school playground in Urumqi that I visited in 1978, two years after the Cultural Revolution, where all the Han Chinese played on one side of the yard, and all the Uighurs on the other. The kids were taught in separate classes, and in separate languages. Today, according to a report from Save the Children (pdf), the situation is even worse. It is increasingly difficult for Uighur children to learn their own mother tongue at school; since 2005, Mandarin or "standard" Chinese has become the official language of instruction.

As in Tibet, younger Uighurs hoped to benefit from Chinese economic reforms but became alienated as the major profits went to Han Chinese migrants. University graduates complain that they suffer from job discrimination, while in the rural areas farmers complain that water and other resources are diverted to Chinese settlers. Many Uighurs believe that, as the latest Amnesty briefing puts it, their ethnic identity is being "systematically eroded".

There have been some violent incidents on a smaller scale since the late 1990s, with isolated bombing and riots: Beijing's response, again as in Tibet, has been to step up repression – including hundreds of executions – in a campaign against the alleged "three evils" (terrorism, separatism and religious extremism).

Especially since September 11, Beijing has made the most of the alleged "terrorist threat" in Xinjiang, partly to show the US that China was on board for the war on terror, and also to justify a general crackdown. According to official Chinese media nearly 1,300 people were arrested last year on "three evils" charges. China's demonisation of Uighur dissent has been described by Professor Dru Gladney (an expert on Islam in China) as a case of "scapegoat terrorism".

The core issue – once more as in Tibet – is not so much that the Uighurs want independence. Most say that they are resigned to the reality of Chinese sovereignty, and at best seek a measure of genuine autonomy (Xinjiang is officially an "Autonomous Region" though this means even less than in Tibet). Yet the scenes of Uighur-on-Han violence from Urumqi – allowing for the selective use of images by the Chinese media – suggest that, on the Uighur street, the build-up of ethnic resentment has reached a new and more serious stage. The threat that China half invented may be coming closer to reality.

Two weeks ago Xi Jinping (the rising Communist party star who may one day succeed President Hu Jintao), paid a significant though barely reported visit to Xinjiang. He insisted that the local party should appoint officials who could do a better job of handling ethnic relations. He warned that they should solve the "real difficulties" that Uighurs suffer in housing, food, health, education and employment. It is an important admission, but it should have been made long before.
Atri
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Atri »

rsingh wrote:http://karakuyash.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html

More information about Uyghurs

Need help to translate this into English .........look like talking about America and India
Indianlar bilen uyghur ejdadliri otturisida qanchilik baghlinish bar?
Bir küni men sawaqdishim elon'gha ozumning indianlar bilen
Uyghurlarning étiqad we bashqa jehettiki bezi oxshashliqliri heqqide izdiniwatqinimni sözlep berginimde u qayil bolmighan halda: "rastmu? Siz ularning otturisida baghlinish bar dep qaramsiz?..."Dep sorighan idi.Uning shu chaghdiki qayil bolmighan eshu haliti hélimu koz aldimda turuptu.

"Untup qalmang amérika indianliri sébiriyidin kelgen!" men étiraz bildürdüm, "qedimqi sibiriye bizning yiraq ejdadlirimiz paaliyet elip barghan zimin!"

"Shundaq "amérika indianaliri"10000 yillar ilgiri rastla séberiyedin
Kelgen,buni menmu tarixi kitablardin oqughan,emma chushenmeydighinim, ular bilen silerning uyghurlarning otturisida zadi qandaq baghlinish bar? Buni ispatlimaq tes shundaqmu?"

"Toghra deysiz ,10 000 yillar ilgiriki insanlar topi bilen hazirqi
Insaniyet otturisida elwette nurghunlighan sirliq hékmetler
Yoshurun'ghan,ularni biwaste ejdat we ewladliq munasiwiti bilen
Baghlighili bolmaydu elwette! lékin ular ottursidiki,étiqad,turmush
Aditi we medeniyet jehetlerdiki bezi oxshashliqlar kishini heyran
Qalduridu.Bu mesile yalghuz menla emes belki nurghun kishiler
Qiziqiwatqan tégige yételmeywatqan sir diyishke bolidu."
Shu küni uning yénidin qaytipla udul kutupxanigha bardim. Indianlar Tarixi ,ularning étnik menbesi heqqidiki kitablarni izdeshke Bashlidim.Ulargha bolghan qiziqish meni özige esir qiliwalghan bolup Ular heqqidiki herqandaq maqalini oquyttim.Belkim bu méning ular bilen
Yiraq ejdadlirimiz ottursidiki oxshashliqni tépip chiqish istikim
Sewebidin bolsa kérek!

Hazirqi zaman medeniyet almidiki kishiler qedimqi séberiyeni "bosh makan" "yawayilar zémini"dep qarashmaqta. Eger biz bu makanning 10 000 yillar ilgiri hetta 20 000 yillar ilgiriki "gheyri resmi tarixi"(epsanilar dunyasi)gha nezer salidighan bolsaq,ularning eyni dewrdiki yashash muhiti bizning diqqitimizni tartidu.Dunya jamaetchiliki teripidin insaniyet medeniyitining boshukliri dep qaralghan "qedimqi misir" ,"qedimqi babil" qatarliq medeniyet yurtlirida insan özining shanliq medeniyetlirini yaratqinida "sibériyilikler" elwette özige xas yashash usulini yaratqanliqini,ularning özige xas özgiche medeniyet chembiriki qurghanliqini inkar qilalmaymiz elwette! ularning hazirqi ural-altay tilliri türkümidiki xelqlerning étiqat aditidiki tebietni muqeddes bilish qarishi,shamanlarning yardimide özliri muqeddes bilip kelgen eshu ilahlar bilen alqishlishish istekliri,bir-birige tolimu yéqin bolghan folklori epsane -qoshaqliri,qedimqi turmush we ishlepchiqirish aditining,eyni dewr kishilirining pisxikisining,ularning bediiy qarishining buyuk namayendisi bolghan "qiya tash süretliri".....Qatarliqlar bizni oylandurmay qoymaydu.

Mana bu insanlar türkümining bir qismi buningdin texminen 10 000~20 000 Yillar ilgiri asiya bilen amérikining eng yéqin ikki tumshuqi
_"Uzulush" muzluqi arqiliq alyaska we shimali amérika,kéyinche jenubi
Amérikigha yötkelgen, ular bu zéminda shanliq "maya medeniyiti" "olmik
Medeniyiti" "teotwakan medeniyiti" qatarliq ajayip medeniyet taplirini
Yaratti.

"Tiotwakan medeniyiti"ge tewe bolghan piramidalarning qurulush uslubi
Bilen misir el-ehramning qurulushidiki shu qeder yeqinliqlar,bu yerdiki
Tengri namigha sizilghan resimler bilen fransiyidiki "altamara ghar
Sizmiliri""ispaniyidiki "rosko ghar sizmiliri"qatarliqlar ottursidiki
Shu qeder oxshashliqlar ene shu eng qedimki medeniyet iznaliri bolup
Hazirqi zaman alimliri téxiche bular ottursidiki sirliq baghlinishning
Tégige yételmey ularni "alem ademliri""derijidin tashqiri eqilliq
Ademler" yaratqan medeniyet dep teripleshmekte. Insaniyet medeniyet
Qatlimining birinchi irasigha tewe bolghan bu medeniyet izliri "amérika
Indianliri"ning bu zéminning esli igiliri bolghan 100ligen qebilining(
Emeliyette bu zémindiki yerlik qebililer 500 din ashidighan bolup 19-
Esirge kelgende bulardin peqet 6 qebilila özining musteqil medeniyet
Halitini,millet bolup turush iqtidarini saqlap qalallighan!)özgiche
Medeniyet mélodiyisi déyish mumkin!

Emdi ular bilen qedimqi altay -ural medeniyet tipige tewe bolghan
,Qedimqi "atliqlar medeniyiti"ning yaratquchiliri bolghan dunya
Jamaetchilik teripidin "honlar" dep qarilip kéliwatqan yiraq
Ejdatlirimizni baghlash mumkinchiliki bolamdu-qandaq? Sibiriyide,mongghul
Dalalirida miladiyidin 3000~1000 yillar ilgiri paaliyet élip bérishqan
Altay-oral tili sistémisi"da sözlishidighan bu xelqler emeliyette
Hazirqi türki tilliq xelqlerning ejdadidin.

Honlarning étnik menbesi heqqide gerche hazirghiche talash -tartishlar boliwatqan bolsimu lékin ularni eshu qedimqi "sébirliqlar"ning yiraq ewladliri ikenliki heqqidiki qarash yenila birlikke kelgen idi.Buni nurghun tarighchilar oz tetqiqatlirida ispatlashqan idi!
Undaq bolsa "amérika indianliri"bilen "honlar"ning esli ejdadi bir
Bolishi mumkin dégen xulasini chiqirish imkaniyiti bolamdu- qandaq?

Mana bu mesililer taki hélighiche talash-tartish ichide turiwatqan
Mesililer xalas!
Emma méning yenila "amérika indianliri"bilen merkizi asiya xelqlirini
Baghlighim kélidu.

4.Indianlar teqdiridin tughulghan héslar

Hürmetlik oqurmen, belkim méni néme uchun indianlar heqqide toxtimay sozleydighandur dep oylawatqandursiz.

Shundaq,méning ular heqqide sözligüm,ularni bilgüm ,chushen'gum we
Buni wetendiki yash dostlirimgha sun'ghum bar.

"Amérika indianliri" turmushidiki bir alahidilik ular tebietke eng
Yéqin kishilerdur.

Tebietke bolghan hörmet,tebietke bolghan muhebbet ,tebietke bolghan
Sadaqet,tebietke bolghan cheksiz étiqad ularning jismi hem rohigha
Singip ketken diyishke bolidu!

Tebietke bolghan bu qeder méhri-muhebbet ulargha
Ata-bowiliridin_____sibiriyeliklerdin miras qalghan bolup,ulardiki bu
Xil étiqad hélimu hem ularning turmushida oz ipadisini tépip turuptu.
Ularning hazirqi ewladliri gerche bir putun mukemmel millet bolup
Turush imtiyazdin ayrilghan,özige xas tilini yoqatqan halette bolsimu
Emma bu kishilerdiki ejdatliridin qalghan eshu xil eqide ,roh téxi
Yoqalmaptu!

Tebietke bolghan cheksiz séghinish,muhebbet étiqat hélimu ularning
Turmushida oz ipadisini tépip turuptu .
Yaq méningche ulardiki tebietke bolghan étiqad herqandaq bir el
,Milletke qarighanda shu qeder mukemmel saqlan'ghan iken.
Men ularning turmushi hem orup-adetliri teswirligen kitablarni,sin-filimlerni shundaqla ularning bugünki ewladlirining amérikida ötküzgen xilmu-xil bayram -murasimliridin buni téximu chongqur hés qilishqa bashlidim.

Amérikida "amérika indianliri"gha ait tor betliridin 100 yüzche bolup
,Men koprek "etext.Lib.Wirginia.Ed", ,"101
Language.com"..Qatarliq 10 gha yéqin tor betlirini ziyaret qilip
Turimen,bu tor betliride hazirqi indianlargha ait kündilik
Xewerler,ularning bayramliri,kündilik paaliyetliri,turmush
Adetliri,sen'et paaliyetliri qatarliqlar nuqtiliq tonushturulidu.
Morganning "qedimqi jem'iyet"dégen kitabida teswerlen'ginidek,ular
Hélimu quyashni muqeddes bilishidu;"Ay ilahi"gha tiwinidu;Yultuzlarning
Jaylashqan ornigha we yötkilishige qarap kishilerning teqdir-qismetliri
Belgilishimu,bolghusi ishlardin bisharet bérishidu;"Ejdadlar rohi"din
Medet tileydu;Özliri muqeddes dep qarighan taghlarda "tagh
Muekkili"sheripige türlük tebriklesh paaliyetlirini elip baridu;"Orman
Ilahi" we "su ilahi"gha atap nezirler qilishidiken.
Men tor beketliridin ularning bayramlirigha ait höjjetlik filimlerni
Körüp turimen.Bultur 7- ayda ularning "pow-pow usuli musabiqisi"gha
Ait bir filimni kördum.

Her yili 5- ay mezgilide kaliforniye shtatidiki indianlar arisida
"Qushlar usuli"("pow-pow usuli") paaliyiti élip berilidighan bolup
Herqaysi jaylardin kelgen indianlar bu shtatqa yighilip usul
Musabiqisi ötküzidu,adette bu paaliyet birer hepte dawamlishidiken,men
Bu usulning muzika rétimi anglighinimda koz aldimgha bizning
Turpanning "nazirkom usuli"bilen qumulning "toxo usuli "keldi.Ularning
Usul oynighan chaghdiki yasinishi qiyapiti xuddi "qizil xoraz"ni
Eslitetti...Elwette qumul rayonida "toxu usulini oynighan chaghda
Kishiler hélimu xorazgha oxshaydighan niqaplarni taqishidu,emma
Indianlarda bu usulni oynighan chaghdiki niqapliri beeyni "bazghip
Turghan xoraz"ning özi diyishke bolatti.

Filimni körüp bolghandin kéyin ulargha bolghan qiziqishim téximu
Kücheydi,shu haman özüm izdiniwatqan "uyghurlarning niqabliq
Usulliri"ésimge keldi,men turpanning "nazirkom usuli",qumulning "toxu
Usuli" we ili déhqanliri arisida hélimu toy-tokun meshreplerde oynilip
Kélidighan"jeren usuli" "ghaz oyuni"

"Tüge oyuni""bergüm lepiri"...Qatarliqlarda ipadilen'gen "tebiet
Étiqadchiliqi"ésimge keldi..."Bularning esli menbesini sélishturushqa
Ortaqlashturushqa bolamdu-qandaq?" Bu soal kallamgha kiriwaldi we bu
Heqte izdinishke bashlidim...Belkim bu heqtiki izdinishimni kéyinrek
Wetende chiqidighan orup-adetke dair jornallarda élan qilishim mumkin.
Uyghurlardiki kündilik turmushta ipadilinip turidighan quyashni we
Ayni ulughlash;Yultuzlargha qarap pal échish;Muqeddes taghlargha
Choqunush;Yada tash eqidisi;Zor derexlerni muqeddes bilish;Suni
Pakliqning nishani qilish;Tupraqni ulaghlash;Tuzni muqeddes bilish,nanni
Ulughlash;Erwahlar rohigha atap "yagh buritish".......Qatarliq étiqad
Adetlirini "indianlargha oxshutush "mumkinmu qandaq ?!

Hésabsiz soallar meni indianlar heqqide izdinishke ,ular bilen uyghurlarning turmush adetliri otturisidin melum baghlinishlarni tépip chiqishqa ündeytti.
Men oqup tügetken kitabni qayta qolumgha aldim,aptorning bayanidin burun sitat süpitide birilgen "yawropa köchmenliri"ning "yerlik milletler"ni qirghin qilghan ,basturghan waqti heqqidiki bayanlarni qayta oqushqa bashlidim.Oqughanséri,ularning eyni chaghda duch kelgen
Qismetliri mening shunche hisdashlighimni qozghaytti,aptorning koz-yashliri bedilige pütken her bir jümlisi yurek tarimni chéketti,her bir bayani méni oz yurtumgha élip kétetti, oz millitim béshidin ötküzgen tarix sehipiliri koz aldimda gewdilinetti.

"Uyghurlarni bugünki haletke qaldurghan nerse zadi néme?" "Uyghurlar néme uchun dunya xelqi bilen teng qedemde mangalmaywatidu?" "Uyghurlar nime uchun pen-téxnikida dunyada yétekchilik orun'gha ötelmidi?" " Eyni yilliri Yipek yoli sodisida yétekchi orunda turghan uyghurlar néme uchun hazirqi weziyette shu qeder passip haletke choshup qaldi?" " Uyghurlar eqli jehette bashqilardin töwenmu?" "Uyghurlar muteessipmu? " " Uyghurlarda izdinish rohi kemchilmu?"" Uyghurlarda yéngiliqni qobul qilish xahishi rastinla ajizmu?" "Qosh tilliq maarip oqutushi uyghurlarni yéngiche tereqqiyat yonulushige bashlap kirelemdu?...." Nurghunlighan tegsiz soallar meni lerzige salatti......

Amérika qitesige yawropa köchmenliri kélishtin ilgiri yerlik xelqler ormanlar qaplan'ghan bu zéminda "orman ilahi","tagh muekkili" "suilahi"...Qatarliqlarning panahida,"shaman"larning ilahi naxshilirigha jor bolup,eshu tügimes bayliqlarni ata qilghan bu munbet zéminda
Xatirjem yashighan idi......

Bu xil xatirjem bayashat turmush,ularni ghemsiz,oz nesiwisige shuki qilidighan qanaetchan,horun,hetta hoshyarliqini yoqatqan eshundaq bir haletke keltürüp qoyghan,shunga ular kolombu bu quruqluqqa yétip kelginide uni eziz méhmini süpitide qarshi alghan,u we uning dostlirini eng shirin taamlar bilen,cheksiz hörmet we iptixar ichide méhman
Qilghan,ular élip kelgen ajayibatlar ularning eqlini lal qilghan,ularni oz tengriliri ewetken "muqeddes kishiler"dep béshida kötürgen............

Nihayet yillar ötüp kolumbuning dostliri uning izini bésip bu zimin'gha keplep kélishke bashlighan,yerlik kishiler yenila shu qeder mehmandostlighi bilen ularni qarshi alghan ,ulargha panahliq jay bergen,ulargha ajayip semimi dostluq muhebbetlirini yetküzgen!!
Lékin bu "köchmenler"axirqi hésabta ularni umitsizlendurushke bashlighan hetta axirqi hésabta ular muqeddes bilgen nersilerni weyran qilishqa bashlighan...Hetta axirqi hésabta ularni bu zémindin köchüshke,chöllerge kétishke mejburlighan!

Aptor bu heqtiki bayanini shundaq yazidu:
"Rehmet sizlerning bu zémin'gha qedem basqiningizlargha,bizge hem yéngi makan tépip bergininglargha alemche teshekkur! emma biz yéngi makan, yéngi zémin'gha muhtaj emesmiz!!("we thank you koming here to talkto us in a way......We want this plake and not any other....")" Biz uchun bashqa héchqandaq jay yoqtur,biz sining bizge bashqa zimin
Bérishingge muhtaj emesmiz"("there is no other plake for us.We do not
Want you to buy any other plake.")
Shundaq lékin ular axirqi hésabta yenila oz ziminliridin,munbet yerliridin ,ormanliridin,muqeddes taghliridin,ana deryadin ayrilip qalghan,ularning "orman ilahi" "tagh muekkili" "ana derya" Ormanliqtiki "ejdatlar rohi"ularni qoghdap qalalmighan......Amérikining shu chaghdiki yerlik hökümiti,pirézdenti ularni "tinchliq shertnamisi"gha qol qoyushqa mejburlighan 1833- yili "amérika hökümiti" bilen "yerlik qebililer ittipaqi"otturisida kélishim imzalinip ular mejburi halda gherpke yenimu gherpke köchüshke mejbur bolghan,emma eyni chaghda yerlik xelqler buninggha bolghan qattiq naraziliqini ipadiligen "let the gowernment be glad and proud. It kan kill us.We do not fight. We do what it says. If we kannot liwe here, we want to go into the mountains and die. We do not want any other home."...

Elwette amérika hökümiti,yawropa köchmenlirining kyinki ewladliri___bugünki "amérika xelqi" indianlardin kechürüm soridi, ulargha özlirining eshu yolsizliqliri,hem qirghinliqliri uchun Namaqul bolushti! lékin erzimdu?! Bu qebililer,amérikining esli xojayinliri,dunya medeniyitining yene bir qismini yaratqan ,tilsimliq dunyasi ichide özgiche étiqat,medeniyet chembirikini qurghan yer sharini
RSingh ji,

I guess, the article is talking about Native American Indians.. Perhaps, the way they were exterminated by White people during their American conquest..
shaardula
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by shaardula »

one question is why now? that too in a country like china, of all things they instigated this by sms?

one of the things is methods are quickly replicated. we should watch out for this sms thingie. these types of methods are dangerous and dont know how people like teesta will use it.

man what relentless drama in the world. every week a new thing. these days things like a train crashes, 60 people get killed in a factory explosion etc dont even register.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

I have a clear line regarding when I should show sympathy to separatist tendencies of a people and when not.

1) The nationalistic (== sub-nationalistic separatist) feeling amongst the people exists across any religious divisions amongst them, and they are be united. == Sympathy
Religion-motivated separatism == No Sympathy

2) The ethnic group holds its historical cultural roots dear to its identity, and that causes its desire to find its own place under the sun == SYMPATHY
The ethnic group has changed its Weltanschauung due to external influences, and for that reason wishes to distance itself from its surrounding political affiliations and bonds, as often happens through change of religion (e.g Kashmir, Pakistani areas from India, possibly in Nagaland,, etc) == NO SYMPATHY

3) An ethnic group is home in a place from time immemorial and has historical rights to the land and wants to secure its predominance in its homeland == SYMPATHY
An ethnic group has encroached into a geographical region, and made the native ethnic group into a minority and then wants to dictate the political future of the region == NO SYMPATHY (e.g. Kosovo, Bangladeshi in Assam soon)

4) An ethnic group can lay claim to a large area (especially peripheral), which should be under its own rule == SYMPATHY
Any ethnic group which occupies a minuscule area, wants to exclusively lord over it, destroying the contiguity of the larger federation == NO SYMPATHY

5) A local ethnic group is being emasculated culturally, linguistically, religion-wise by the predominant ethnic group in the country == SYMPATHY
An ethnic group native to the region is allowed to dictate the cultural and linguistic agenda for the region even as it finds itself in a bigger federation, but still demands independence from the wider political federal setup == NO SYMPATHY

6) The native ethnic group has hardly any voice in the political set up, cannot elect and send its representatives to govern over them, nor has a voice in the larger political setup of the country, especially regarding its own region == SYMPATHY
An ethnic group enjoys full democratic rights, and can govern themselves and have an equitable voice in the larger federation, and then wants independence == NO SYMPATHY

7) The region of a local ethnic group is part of a wider country, which is ruled by a dictatorship, but the ethnic group finds the political setup of the country to be rebelling against their sense of a more liberal, more representative setup == SYMPATHY
The native ethnic group lives in a country with a full liberal democratic political system == NO SYMPATHY

8 ) The ethnic group lives in a country, where another ethnic group dominates completely == SYMPATHY
The ethnic group lives in a country, which is a federation of many different ethnicities, and no ethnicity has a monopoly on power == NO SYMPATHY

So where do the Uyghurs fit in. Should they have the right to secede, according to the above criteria?
Uyghurs
1) Most of the Uyghurs are now Muslim. They are united in demanding autonomy/independence from the Han Chinese. The various Uyghur tribes are united.

2) Even though the Uyghurs have changed their religion from Buddhism to Islam over the centuries, that is not the reason why they would want to cut off ties from China, as Uyghurs homeland was not part of China, when the change occurred. The base religion should be the one considered when the region became part of the bigger empire.

3) Uyghurs have their own ethnic identity (Turkic) different from the Han Chinese. The Uyghurs are also native to the region. They were there first, and have a right to decide their future.

4) The Uyghurs are spread over a large area, an area bigger than Western Europe. Moreover Uyghuristan, like Tibet, happens to be on the periphery of China.

5) It is the Han Chinese that have been encroaching in the region after China brought the region under its own control. Uyghurs need independence if the Uyghurs want to avoid the total loss of their culture to the Sinicization.

6) The Uyghurs have no voice in their own governance. Beijing decides who will be the Governor for the region. There are no local elections.

7) PRC is a single-party dictatorship. It is no political system worth striving for. It is Uyghurs prerogative to opt out of a political system which is not representative.

8 ) The Han Chinese totally dominate China. The minorities have little say and are used only for the occasional cultural dance activity to show the conquest over different colonized races. As such for the ethnic minorities in China, it becomes an issue of being subjugated by a single ethnic group, the Han Chinese, and not sharing in a larger federation of equally powerful ethnic groups.

On all accounts, the Uyghurs, the Tibetans have a right to be independent. They have a right to because they are not ethnic Han Chinese and have their own cultural, historical and linguistic identity. They do not want to live in a dictatorship of the Han Chinese, without any say over their own region. They do not want to be Sinicized.

The Uyghurs and the Tibetans have a right not only to demand their independence but to fight for it with all possible means.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Chinmayanand »

Looks like this news has not reached KSA,Iran and TSP . No statements, no comments, no reminding of Islamic bombs ...very disheartening to see...the caliphate is in danger ... and the superpowers of the caliphate not even squeaking... :(( Looks like Uighurs are not pure enough...
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by rkirankr »

Anujan wrote:
Arun_S wrote:What is Uigher's villages/towns today were very closely linked to Indic Kashmir and Hindu religion. Go on Google maps Google-Earth and see the names of towns there.
There are numerous references to this. Xinjiang/Tajik/Kyrgz/Turkmen belong to the Kingdom of Kamboja, Parama-Kambojas and Rishikas

Kambojas occupy a very prominent place in Mahabharata. Kambojas are said to be excellent horsemen, charioteers and sword fighters and their kingdom is north of "Aswaka Stana" (Place of horses - Afghanistan ?) between Syr Darya and Amu Darya (Transoxania, current day Tajik/Kyrgz/Xinjiang). Along with Tukharas (turkmenistan ?) they are invincible in battle, but were killed in the thousands by Satyaki.

Satyaki says of the Kambojas to Yudhishtira: "O King, the Kambojas are the finest among the chariot warriors ! Their charge is like that of wild elephants. The Kambojas are brave, learned, and devoted to the science of weapons and warfare. They are highly united and co-ordinated in their battles". On the fourteenth day, Arjuna kills Sudakshina, the ruler of Kambojas after a terrible battle.

After Mahabharata is won, Arjuna defeats the Kashmiras, turns east and captures the Sivi kingdom (Of the famous Sibi Chakravarthi story, whereby sibi gives a pound of flesh to save a pigeon) and Oddiyana (Sivi and Oddiyana was called by fahien as So-ho-to, or current day Swat), and then turns north, leads a small mobile force to fight the cavalry warriors of Daradas (Gilgit) and Kamboja (Transoxania), the Parama-Kambojas (eastern transoxania) and Rishikas (Xinjiang). He also defeats the raiders and robbers near Swat :lol:
So not much has changed in SWAT from the time of Arjuna. :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Why you are bent on doing harakiri like other CPI komladess? Talk sense man.
Yes, Comlade! Immediately, comlades! Heading to Le-Education and Lock-Bleaking Camp in Gobi now, Comlade! 8)

Rajesh, very good listing of criteria. The key criterion to me seems to be whether these people have equal rights and opportunity to advance within the present political system. I am not sure they don't have "elections" (same as all other parts of China). The local Govt Official's name is Wang, evidently Han. As for their "culture", I would suggest that all these teary-eyed references to Kushan culture and ancient civilization are misplaced. All that has long since been destroyed, and the nearest thing they have now is Pakibanization. They probably have movies, too, like I saw in Kerala, dreaming of prancing around desert palm trees wearing Shuttlecock Burquas and Arab sheets.

However, the attacks against the Han people there, play right into the hands of the commie Peopre's Ribelation Almy. Many of the Han families have been in Xinjiang for most of the past century if not longer. Many were themselves brought there forcibly to help develop a wild region. Sure, they advanced, because they probably had better education, technical skills, and were dependent on the mercies of the Empire or People's Paradise for everything including protection from the Paki-type "local" goons.

Violence against "settlers from other parts of the country" is no different from the Shiv Sena muggers attacking people from other parts of India in Mumbai. If you ask the mobsters, they will probably claim that they have been Denied Rights, the Govt. is Oppressive and Corrupt, the Police torture them and favor the Settlers, etc. etc. Same arguments as the Fijian goons use to rationalize looting and assaulting the people whose ancestors were brought to Fiji by former Imperial rulers.

"Independence" for Xinjiang is hardly a viable option. In the days when they could ride out and loot the nearest productive community, this may have worked, but even then, history shows that that they were rapidly co-opted to become mercenaries for other rulers.

Look at it from the pov of the Hans/ people of neighboring provinces. For the first time, they have relative peace and security from the pakis of Xinjiang, who used to ride out, burn their villages, abduct their wives and daughters and torture their men to death, every time they managed to build up from the rubble and create SOME wealth through sheer hard work. So I doubt that strong police action to rub out the "criminals" is unpopular in the neighboring provinces. In fact, several Officials are going to get shot or sent to the Gobi Rock-Breaking Vacation for Failure to Crack Down on Criminals.


The present SMS-spread "resentment" is partly about the oil discovered there, and about pipelines from FSU states.

Underneath, this is a place where the aspiration is not to become a Free Democratic Republic but to become another Islamic Paradise.

So there may be a good reason why the Saudis etc. are quiet. Outwardly.

Indian support for these things should be based on perceptions of Indian long-term interests, not on wild-eyed notions of Hyooman Rites, in which the locals have no history or present aspirations.

Bottom line: If I take away my loathing of the Commie Rizald Paladise, I find little sympathy for the Uighurs. They and the Commies deserve each other, IMO, except that anything that helps break up the Rizald gang is good.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Atri »

Excellent post, Enqyoobi..

Loathing and intense hatred towards China won't take India anywhere. There must be some associated profit, short and/or medium term, for love and hatred.

How will Bhaarat benefit with focus shifting away from Fak-Ap towards Xinjiang?

The strength of Talibani push in NWFP towards Punjab must remain. The pressure should not go down.

I guess, just like 26/11 attacks, the breaking of this news has something to do with attempts of TSP and its Chinki friend to divert the pressure of Talibani thrust for time-being. India sympathising with Uighurs will unnecessarily send hostile signals.

It is Bhaarat's best interest that thrust in NWFP does not decrease. Bhaarat has chosen that alternative by not going offensive after 26/11. Now that India has made the choice, its is in her best interest to discourage all those things which divert the attention of talibanis from TSP and Pakjab towards some distant land which is of no immediate concern to India.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by harbans »

Rajeshji your symapthy-no smpathy post was excellent. Will save it up for reference and quoting later wih your permission.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by harbans »

N3 also very good post.

Rajeshji:

An ethnic group has encroached into a geographical region, and made the native ethnic group into a minority and then wants to dictate the political future of the region == NO SYMPATHY (e.g. Kosovo, Bangladeshi in Assam soon)

We can add Kashmir to this?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

narayanan wrote:
Why you are bent on doing harakiri like other CPI komladess? Talk sense man.
Yes, Comlade! Immediately, comlades! Heading to Le-Education and Lock-Bleaking Camp in Gobi now, Comlade! 8)

Rajesh, very good listing of criteria. The key criterion to me seems to be whether these people have equal rights and opportunity to advance within the present political system. I am not sure they don't have "elections" (same as all other parts of China). The local Govt Official's name is Wang, evidently Han. As for their "culture", I would suggest that all these teary-eyed references to Kushan culture and ancient civilization are misplaced. All that has long since been destroyed, and the nearest thing they have now is Pakibanization. They probably have movies, too, like I saw in Kerala, dreaming of prancing around desert palm trees wearing Shuttlecock Burquas and Arab sheets.

Indian support for these things should be based on perceptions of Indian long-term interests, not on wild-eyed notions of Hyooman Rites, in which the locals have no history or present aspirations.

Bottom line: If I take away my loathing of the Commie Rizald Paladise, I find little sympathy for the Uighurs. They and the Commies deserve each other, IMO, except that anything that helps break up the Rizald gang is good.
n³,
Your bottom line is really the bottom line here, however I wouldn't make similar subtractions, so my sympathy for the Uyghurs remain, and it has nothing to do with pre-history.

Islamism on a higher level, in MVHO, is either a force of ((in-)human) nature, and at times when somebody finds a way to harness it, it is a primitive stick, a danda, a laath, to beat somebody up. It may have the strength, and often the ingredients for expansion, just like a storm does, and like in a storm, many people in its path may fall victim to its barbarity too.

Islamism however does not have a mind. It is self-destructive. It is knowledge-destructive. It is dogmatic. It is backward-looking, even as it embraces the fruits of modernity like internet, tv, and mobiles. The Rizald is anything but.

Sooner or later the storm will subside, will lose its potency. With the Oil run out, and Poppy crops eaten up by GM organisms, the storm would soon start gasping for air. The Rizald on the other hand, is not going to die anytime soon, but will only grow stronger with time.

Until now, people all over the world, have used Islamism as a stick to beat Indians. The Brits have done so, The Rizald has done so. I do not know, whether we can ever wield that stick, considering the stick's fascination for Hindu heads and the woeful subservience of Indian Muslims to all outside Islamic powers from Barbaria to Iran. I am still optimistic that under certain circumstances and some Chanakyan brain-grease it may be possible.

In the end it comes down to a choice, whether we want to be hit by a storm or eaten by a hungry growing dragon.

I would like the storm to go pay visit to dragon also. Let the storm beat down upon the dragon too, and not only us. Let the dragon flap its wings a bit and weaken the storm too. Let both of them get weak. Then I may outlive both.

I personally don't mind if the storm for the time being gets a bit stronger, if it pounds on the dragon, and if I can live behind the Pakjabi Wall, but I concede, we are still far away from reclaiming that wall.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by SwamyG »

From an Indian perspective if Xinjian gains "total" freedom from China and falls into Taliban; then Tibet has to become "totally" free and fall under Indic influences. Tibet and Tibetan State will have to be sympathetic to Indian interests. Now why would they do so? But China is not going to allow these provinces two to secede anytime soon.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Lalmohan »

i stand to be corrected, but the uighurs are also sitting on oil deposits, no?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by brihaspati »

Let us look at the Uighur-Tibet issue from the Indic viewpoint and Indian interests, without being emotional.

I mostly support RajeshAji's points, but what Narayananji writes is also a very valid point. It is not just about perception of rights of self-determination and self-assertion by any population. We should also think of the long term consequences of any separatism. The Uighurs have long been almost completely Islamized. Any separate ethnic and traditional pre-Islamic cultural identity or elements are likely to be increasingly eroded in the days of mass-communication and electrinic or media penetration of isolation. The existing Islamization will make the Uighurs much more vulnerable to Wahabi or Sunni preaching for Jihad, and no other ideologies can compete given that all other memes have been carefully edited out of the Uighur consciousness.

Moreover, the Uighurs are likely to get inclined towards Wahabi Jihadism from very practical tactical considerations. Since no international forum committed ideologically (formally - need not be in reality) to "democracy" have come forward in their favour, they would find the Jihadi ideology the only hope of gaining any leverage or international support. The Islamic powers may remain formally silent and non-committal. But they have a wonderful weapon in "non-state" actors, and they can always activate their terror networks in Uighur support. However this they will do under a complicated and delicate balance of considerations about how far they want to and risk their own interests in "milking" PRC. The covert support of Uighurs can be a good leverage point in bargaining with PRC for more concessions.

From the Indic viewpoint and interest, we must consider that we can revel here on BRF in bashing those who apparently "bash religions", but the reality of the proselytizing branches of the Abrahamic religions cannot be simply swept under the carpet. We cannot afford to allow the expansion of Islamic zones of influence, especially greater accession of Islamics to any form of state power and international recognition around the Indian subcontinent.

By this criterion, Tibetan nationalism has to be supported for a future free Tibetan Republic. The Uighur movement can only be encouraged to the point that PRC has to tie in more military resources in Xinjiang. In fact such a case was made by me in the future strategic scenario thread long ago. My line was exactly this - that we do everything possible to flank the core of Han Chinese power base. We encourage Xinziang disturbances and increase our military presence and penetartion in SE-Asia towards South China Sea. This implies the PLA has to divide and give more attention to this two widely separated theatres of potential war. I had also suggested encouraging the Talebs to either "travel" from North Pak to Xinjiang and settle there or face complete and systematic liquidation (the only way that Jihadis can be finished off - encircle populations and regions, shift them to secure bases, filter and liquidate Jihadis and systematically destroy all elements that can help human survival in the medium term in the areas vacated). This way we move the frontline to NE China and push back the PLA from the Karakorums.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

harbans wrote:N3 also very good post.

Rajeshji:

An ethnic group has encroached into a geographical region, and made the native ethnic group into a minority and then wants to dictate the political future of the region == NO SYMPATHY (e.g. Albanians in Kosovo, Bangladeshi in Assam soon)

We can add Kashmir to this?
Harbans ji,
The Western periphery of India (also other parts of India, but...) has had several plagues -- Outside ethnicities settling in these areas; native ethnicities changing their religion to Islam, mostly under duress; Muslim native ethnicities intermixing with Muslim conquerors; and the Muslims then driving out the rest of the natives.

At the moment, there has been such an induction of Wahhabi venom into Kashmiri society, that the people have become alienated even from their previous selves, from the generations gone by, even Muslim generations gone by. But this change of orientation has been due to the brainwashing done mostly on the native ethnic group, and to a lesser extent of other ethnicities moving in on a large scale.

The incursion of Islam compromised the integrity of the native ethnic groups in Kashmir, divided them into Muslims and Brahmins, with the latter, the original native culture being completely wiped out.

As such it is a difficult call to make, whether Kashmir can be place in such a category, unless one claims that with a change of religion to Islam and intermarrying with Muslim outsiders, the converted lost their right to identification with that native ethnic group, and hence the historic rights to that land. That would however make the arguments less convincing.

Harbans ji,
You are free to use those quotes anywhere you like. I am however not quite sure if my words do justice to the sentiments expressed in that post.
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

The existing Islamization will make the Uighurs much more vulnerable to Wahabi or Sunni preaching for Jihad, and no other ideologies can compete given that all other memes have been carefully edited out of the Uighur consciousness.
I realize that BRF is an India-centric forum, but we do have to look beyond India and Kushan history etc to see the forces and linkages of Xinjiang-PRC. OTOH, Tibet is certainly of very strong Indian interest, and not really any business of others.

Looking at Xinjiang as an India-China-Pakistan issue is like looking at North Korea as a Japan-US issue. Look instead at Xinjiang's neighbors.
1. Per my madarssa geography, the place where the riots are occurring, is a LOOOONG way from India, even from the tip of POK/Northern Areas or Aksai Chin, although the very southwest tip touches the northernmost tip of Rightful Indian Territory (RIT). Take all the Puranic associations with a pinch of salt, pls. I could argue with equal zeal that King Sibi was in fact named so because he was King of Sibi-eria, and Arjuna came from Arjuntina. Take a sanity break for a moment and ask yourself why all these people came down to Kurushektra to get involved in a gambling-induced beer brawl between cousins. I mean, 3/4 of their armies would have died getting through the mountains of Kashmir, long before they had to cross the 5 big rivers.
2. There is NOTHING in terms of population and development in that entire region, even compared to Kyrgzstan.
3. Foreign neighbors are: Russia to the north (fairly close, in fact), Mongolia to the northeast, Kazakhstan to the west (largest border), Kyrgyzstan to the southwest, Tajikistan to the south-southeast.
4. Urumqi (called Wulumuqi on the Chinese map) shows all of 2 roads intersecting: G312 northwest - Southeast, and G216 northeast/southwest. The nearest towns that show up on a map seem to be hundreds of miles away.

(OT: MILForum Mijjile Admirers will get a kick out of this photo)

5. PRC neighbors are: Tibet to the south, Gansu to the north-east and Qinghai to the south-east. Quinhgai is Yellow River country, very much China.

6. If you look at terrain/satellite maps. Urumqui (Wulumuqi) is north of the very high (snow-capped) mountain range that runs across Xinjiang. OTOH, south of the mountains is this arid-looking flat bowl that looks like the bottom of an ancient inland sea, with about one deep canyon running south-north through it. The only place where civilization could exist is in that river valley. So I question how much connection the people north of those mountans would have with the people south of the mountains south of that arid region (i.e. POK and Tibet), except along that narrow river valley region.

7. SO! The logical consequence of rising Independence fervor in Xinjiang is that Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan will all fall into this very large oil and mineral-rich and nuclear-armed, technologically advanced Talibanistan- call it ProtoPakistan. Fak-Ap would naturally take on the Pintellectual Leadership of this region. It's really no big deal to PRC, since they can live quite well without these nuisances, and may enjoy having a nice buffer zone away from the FSU Islamafascist dictatorships where they reject the Panchatantra practised by the gentle Peopre's Lepubric.

None of this is in the interests of India, but it IS in the interests of some other ppl all right.

Get the fried garbanzos and the Rooh Afza and sit back and watch the fun.
ramana
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, To affirm your point of view about the need to roll back Han to core China x-post.....
Suraj wrote:As an example of the historical attitudes to China, from nearby Vietnam - at the end of WW2, when the Japanese left Vietnam, essentially leaving Chaing Kai-Shek's Kuomintang in charge, the Vietminh under Ho Chi Minh instead negotiated for a return of the French (who had been defeated earlier by the Japanese) to Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh's explanation to his Vietminh, castigating them for the initial welcoming treatment to the KMT forces, and his preference for French rule was:
Ho Chi Minh wrote:Don't you realize what it means if the Chinese stay ? Don't you remember your history ? The last time the Chinese came, they stayed one thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying out. Nothing will be able to withstand world pressure for independence. They may stay for a while, but they will have to go, because the white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never leave. As for me, I prefer to smell French shit for five years, rather than Chinese shit for the rest of my life.
The French returned to Vietnam in 1945-46, hoping to quickly defeat the Vietminh nationalists. However, after years of internecine conflict, they were comprehensively defeated by Vo Nguyen Giap's forces at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, and withdrew from Vietnam.

Quote source:
Google books: War and Revolution in Vietnam: 1930-75
What we are seeing is roll back of colonialism and Western presence in Central Asia. The Chinese rolled into East Turkestan to preclude Tsarist Russian advance in the 18th century. We dont know if there was English hand in that.
Arun_S
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Arun_S »

Chiron wrote:Loathing and intense hatred towards China won't take India anywhere. There must be some associated profit, short and/or medium term, for love and hatred.

How will Bhaarat benefit with focus shifting away from Fak-Ap towards Xinjiang?
I say "Fak-Ap" must continue.
The strength of Talibani push in NWFP towards Punjab must remain. The pressure should not go down.

I guess, just like 26/11 attacks, the breaking of this news has something to do with attempts of TSP and its Chinki friend to divert the pressure of Talibani thrust for time-being. India sympathising with Uighurs will unnecessarily send hostile signals.

It is Bhaarat's best interest that thrust in NWFP does not decrease. Bhaarat has chosen that alternative by not going offensive after 26/11. Now that India has made the choice, its is in her best interest to discourage all those things which divert the attention of talibanis from TSP and Pakjab towards some distant land which is of no immediate concern to India.
I think NWFP offensive needed a nudge and is now on auto-pilot cruising to Punjab.
So the Yindu can raise its sight to pay attention to Uighurs and Tibet.
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

The Uighur issue is not merely a religious issue. It is a complex mix of history, ethnicity, poverty, unemployment, social disparity and political inequalities.

From China’s point of view, instability in Xinjiang, could spur challenges in Tibet and Inner Mongolia – all on the periphery of the Chinese State and thus proving a logistic and military problem.

Historically, the Chinese fear social unrest from religions other than the ‘natural’ religion of China i.e. Buddhism and derivates. The Hui Minority War and the Taiping Rebellion, both spurred by religion is a reminder to the Chinese, who are said to have a deep sense of historical antecedents which govern their contemporary decisions. Hence, they are insecure with religious stimuli on people. The heavy handed handling of the Falun Gong, the ruthless curbing of religious activities in Tibet and Xinjiang are but examples of this insecurity. The Islamic adherents in China are 20 million and thus have the propensity to cause instability.

As far as the Islamic countries reaction to the Uighur Movement, Pakistan has an extradition treaty with China and considers all Uighur Movements as terrorist organisations. In Mar 2002 Ismail Kadir, the third highest leader of the ETIM, captured in Pakistan was returned to China. Ismail Semed, another leader captured in Pakistan and convicted in Oct 2005 was executed in Urumqi. Pakistan Army killed Hasan Mahsum, another Uighur leader in South Waziristan in Oct 2003 and Musharraf during his Nov 2003 visit to China unequivocally stated that Pakistan will not allow any anti China activity on the soil of Pakistan including those of the East Turkestan terrorists. Given the fact that Pakistan finds solace in its strong ties with China as a protection from India, the new dispensation, which in any case is a puppet to the Army, would hardly be inclined to change this cosy equation. Therefore, Pakistan will not support the Uighuer Muslims.

There are half a million Uighurs in Central Asia. Most CAR countries, with their autocratic personality based leadership which fears popular uprisings, have repeatedly cracked down on Uighurs, lest such volatile ideas spread to their indigenous populations and prove a challenge to their leadership.

Afghanistan is the sole conduit for the Islamists of Uighur.

The international reaction (read western) is very muted given the fact that they hold their economic consideration higher than human rights et al.

Therefore, the Uighur Islamists are isolated to a great extent.

Thus, from the Indian standpoint, no matter how important the issue may appear to be geopolitically or geostrategically, it remains a non starter.
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Having said what I have said in the above post, there is no denial that if India puts a finger in the pie covertly and sit back smug as the Chinese have been doing in the NE, I find it quite in order, notwithstanding distances.

Money and other help 'eats up' distances!

I daresay, Uncle Sam is sitting idle.
Avinash R
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Avinash R »

Violence In Urumqi
Jul 06, 2009
B. Raman
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... hina&sid=2

At least three Han Chinese were allegedly killed and many others injured in widespread violence directed against the Han Chinese in Urumqi, the capital of the Xinjiang province of China, on July 5, 2009.

Over 1000 Muslims (some estimates put the number at 3000) came out into the streets in different parts of the city and attacked the security forces, Han passers-by and shops owned by Hans.

The demonstrations and the resulting violence were triggered off by reports about the death of two Uighurs at the hands of their Han Chinese co-workers at the Xuri toy factory in Guangdong on June 25,2009. A large number of Uighurs work in the factory and live in a separate dormitory. A report circulated through the Internet alleged that some Uighur workers had raped two Han Chinese women working in the factory. Some enraged Han workers attacked the dormitory. In the resulting clashes, two Uighur workers were killed and 118 persons--Uighurs and

Han Chinese--were injured. The local Chinese authorities brought the situation under control and arrested a Han Chinese worker for circulating through the Internet a false report about the alleged rape. This brought the tension down.

As the news of the incident reached Urumqi there was widespread anger over the death of the two Uighurs at the hands of Han Chinese in Guangdong. Even before the Guangdong incident, there was considerable anger in Xinjiang over preventive arrests being made by the authorities of the local office of the Ministry of Public Security since April to prevent any violent incidents coinciding with the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China which falls in October and the occupation of Xinjiang by the People's Liberation Army.

There has also been anger over the execution of two Uighurs in April last in Kashgar city for what China called a "terrorist" attack last August there aimed at sabotaging the Beijing Olympics. According to the Chinese authorities, 17 policemen were killed in that incident. Fears have been expressed by the local Uighurs that the 10 Uighurs handed over by Pakistan to China in June on the ground that they belonged to the East Turkistan Islamic Movement might meet with a similar fate.

There has been a recrudescence of jihadi violence in Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan and the Xinjiang provice of China since the beginning of this year. While local grievances of the Uighurs are believed to be responsible for the fresh wave of unrest in Xinjiang, the revival of pro-Taliban activities in Uzbekistan and Kyrgystan has come in the wake of attempts by the US to find alternate routes for the movement of logistic supplies to their troops in Afghanistan through Russia and the Central Asian Republics. Following frequent attacks by the Pakistani Taliban on convoys carrying logistic supplies passing through the Pashtun areas, the US has embarked on an exercise to find alternate routes.

Reliable sources say that Al Qaeda has been encouraging the Uzbeks, the Uighurs and the Chechens to unite to foil this US exercise and to target the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation's joint operations against terrorism.

The Chinese authorities have accused the World Uighur Congress and other West-based Uighur exile organisations of instigating the fresh violence in Xinjiang by disseminating exaggerated accounts of the Guangdong incident. Fearing retaliatory attacks on the Chinese working in Pakistan by local Uighurs, they have requested the Pakistani Ministry of the Interior to step up security for the Chinese Embassy in Islamabad and for the Chinese nationals working in Pakistan.

Annexed is the text of a report on the situation in Urumqi disseminated by the State-controlled Xinhua news agency on the morning of July 6,2009.

Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies.


ANNEXURE

Xinhua Report Disseminated on the morning of July6,2009

URUMQI: The unrest in Urumqi, capital of northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, has led to the death of "a number of civilians and one armed police officer" on Sunday, sources with the regional government said early Monday.

Some ordinary people and armed police officers were also injured during the unrest, while many motor vehicles and shops were smashed and burned, the sources said.

The situation is under control now, it added.

Previous government report said that three ordinary people of the Han ethnic group were killed in the incident as of 11 pm Sunday, in addition to 20 others injured.

Initial investigation showed the unrest was masterminded by the World Uyghur Congress led by Rebiya Kadeer, according to the regional government.

"The unrest is a preempted, organized violent crime. It is instigated and directed from abroad, and carried out by outlaws in the country," a government statement said early Monday.

According to the government, the World Uyghur Congress has recently been instigating an unrest via the Internet among other means, calling on the outlaws "to be braver" and "to do something big."

Nur Bekri, chairman of the Xinjiang regional government, said in a televised speech Monday morning that the movement came after a conflict between Uygur and Han ethnic people in a toy factory in the southern Guangdong province on June 26.

Two Uygur workers were killed during the factory brawl, which was triggered by a sex assault by a Uygur worker toward a Han female worker. A total of 120 others of both Han and Uygur ethnic groups were injured.

Nur Bekri said the brawl was used by some overseas opposition forces to instigate Sunday's unrest and undermine the ethnic unity and social stability in the autonomous region, with an aim to split the country.

"We should bear in mind that stability is to the greatest interest of all people in China, including the people in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region," he said.

He blamed the "three forces" of terrorism, separatism and extremism for making use of the event to sabotage the country, adding that their attempts are doomed to fail.

Meanwhile, the Urumqi municipal government issued an urgent notice early Monday morning, announcing traffic control in certain areas to "maintain social order in the city and guarantee the execution of duty by state organs."

"From 1 a.m. to 8 a.m. on July 6, police impose traffic control in certain areas in the city of Urumqi. Passage in these areas is not allowed for any vehicle," the notice reads.

"All the units and individuals shall voluntarily help maintain social order as required by this notice. People who violate the notice will be detained and punished by police according to law. Those whose acts constitute a crime shall be subject to criminal liabilities according to law," says the notice.

So far the government has not disclosed how many people were involved in Sunday's unrest, only said they illegally gathered and protested in several downtown places at about 7 p.m. Sunday and engaged in beating, smashing, looting and burning.

The government has arrested some rioters, althouth the exact number of people arrested was still not available.

This year marks the region's 60th anniversary of peaceful liberation.But during the annual "two session" in March this year, Nur Bekri warned the security situation in the region would be "more severe".

"It's a time of celebration for Xinjiang people but hostile forces will not give up such an opportunity to sabotage," said the official.

The far western autonomous region is home to more than 10.96 million of ethnic minority people, including Uygur, Mongolian and Hui.

Uighur Violence Spreads
Jul 06, 2009

While the Chinese authorities have admitted only 140 fatalities, Uighur exile sources allege that there were at least 600 fatalities as a result of the indiscriminate firing by the security forces. ...
B. Raman
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... hina&sid=1

In a report disseminated at 2-30 PM Beijing time (12 noon Indian Standard Time) on July 6, 2009, the State-controlled Xinhua news agency of China has admitted that normalcy has been only partially restored in Urumqi, the capital of the Xinjiang province, which saw the outbreak of violent protests by Uighur students on July 5, 2009, who demanded the arrest and prosecution of the Han Chinese workers who attacked Uighur workers in a toy factory of Guangdong in Southern China on June 25, 2009, killing two Uighurs. The Han Chinese had attacked the Uighurs following the circulation of a report through the Internet alleging that some Uighur workers had raped two Han Chinese women. According to the Chinese authorities, the report of the rape was found to be false.

According to Uighur exile sources, the protesting students carried the Chinese national flag in order to highlight that theirs was a human rights demand and that they had nothing to do with the Islamic Movement of Eastern Turkestan and other Islamic fundamentalist groups. According to these sources, the protesters did not even shout "Allah is Great" in order not to give a religious colour to their protest.

The exiles allege that despite the peaceful nature of the protest, the Chinese security forces lost their nerves and attacked the protesters. Initially, they attacked them with electrically-charged batons. The protesters then went out of control and started attacking Han Chinese passers-by and shops owned by Han Chinese. They also attacked the public transport system and set fire to a large number of buses and some vehicles of the security forces.

The Chinese authorities moved reinforcements of special police units in armoured personnel carriers into Urumqi. The exiles allege that these units indiscriminately fired on the protesters in many places in the city. In the clashes between the students and the security forces, which continued throughout the night of July 5, many were killed. The Xinhua has admitted at least 140 fatalities.

The Xinhua report was based on a press briefing on the situation held by the Urumqi authorities on the afternoon of July 6, 2009. In the briefing, Liu Yaohua, the police chief of the Xinjiang province, stated as follows:

* The death toll has risen to 140 and was still climbing. Fifty-seven dead bodies were retrieved from Urumqi's streets and lanes, while all the others were confirmed dead at hospitals.
* At least 828 people were injured.
* The rioters set fire to 261 motor vehicles, including 190 buses, 10 taxis and two police cars.
* A preliminary investigation showed 203 shops and 14 homes were destroyed in the riot.
* The Police have arrested several hundred in connection with the riot, including at least a dozen who were suspected of fanning the unrest.
* The police are still searching for about 90 other key suspects in the city. "Police have tightened security in downtown Urumqi streets and at key institutions such as power and natural gas companies and TV stations to prevent large-scale riots."
* More than 100 ethnic officials from adjacent areas have been transferred to Urumqi for interrogating the suspects according to law.

The World Uighur Congress has strongly denied Chinese allegations that it had instigated the violent incidents by disseminating through the Internet exaggerated accounts of the Guangdong incident. In a statement issued from Munich, it has stated as follows: " Instead of addressing the legitimate demands of the peaceful Uighur protesters, the Chinese authorities responded to quell the protest with the deployment of four kinds of police (regular police, anti-riot police, Special Police and the People's Armed Police (PAP)).The Special Police and PAP used tear gas, automatic rifles and armored vehicles to disperse the Uighur protesters. During the crackdown, some were shot to death, and some were beaten to death by the Chinese police. Some demonstrators were even crushed by armored vehicles near Xinjiang University, according to eyewitnesses."

While the Chinese authorities have admitted only 140 fatalities, Uighur exile sources allege that there were at least 600 fatalities as a result of the indiscriminate firing by the security forces.

On July 6,2009, there were reports of protest demonstrations in other towns of Xinjiang too, but the violence has remained confined to Urumqi.

Till now, the local Chinese authorities in Urumqi have been blaming "ethnic separatists" for the riots and not jihadi fundamentalist elements.
Uighur Violence Spreads
Jul 07, 2009
B. RAMAN

While the Chinese authorities have admitted only 140 fatalities, Uighur exile sources allege that there were at least 600 fatalities as a result of the indiscriminate firing by the security forces.

There has been an uneasy calm in Urumqi, the capital of the Xinjiang Province of China, after nearly 36 hours of bloody rioting by over 3000 Uighur students, supported by others. No fresh incident of violence was reported on the night of July 6, 2009.

A curfew is in force and reinforcements have been rushed to Urumqi from the Sichuan province. Fearing fresh unrest in Tibet, the Chinese have stepped up security measures in the Tibetan-inhabited areas.

The Chinese provincial authorities have admitted that 156 people--129 men and 27 women-- were killed in the riots and that the security forces in Urumqi have taken 1434 persons into preventive custody.

While there is uneasy calm in Urumqi, there are reports of spreading demonstrations from the rural areas, including Kashgar, which has been a hotbed of the activities of Islamic fundamentalist elements supporting the Islamic Movement of Eastern Turkestan, which is allied with Al Qaeda.

While the protest demonstrations in Urumqi, which led to the violent riots due to over-reation by the Chinese security forces, were largely led by liberal human rights elements with no links to the IMET and other fundamentalist organisations, reliable reports indicate that the protest demonstrations in Kashgar and other interior areas are being led by jihadi elements close to the IMET. The protesters have been shouting "Allah Is Great" slogans. This slogan was reportedly absent during the demonstrations in Urumqi. The protest demonstrations in Kashgar started from a local mosque.

The Chinese intelligence agencies have once again been taken by surprise as they were by the Tibetan uprising of March,2008. While they had been taking routine security precautions in view of the forthcoming 60th anniversary of the People's Republic of China, they had not anticipated the kind of violence which Urumqi saw on the night of July 6.

The Chinese security agencies, which generally tend to blame jihadi terrorists of the IMET for all their problems in Xinjiang, have thus far refrained from doing so in respect of the violence in Urumqi. They have been blaming it on "ethnic separatist terrorism" and not on "jihadi terrorism."

They are blaming the Munich-based World Uighur Congress (WUC) for the Urumqi violence just as they blamed the Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC) for the violence in Lhasa last year. A campaign for the demonisation of the WUC has already been started by the provincial authorities similar to the campaign for the demonisation of the TYC witnessed last year. Just as they projected the TYC as no different from Al Qaeda in its methods, they are projecting the WYC similarly.

Their suspicions and fears have been aggravated by the close links allegedly maintained by the WUC with the USA's National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organisation (UNPO) based in Holland. The UNPO had played an active role in promoting the separation of the Baltic States from the erstwhile USSR. It had trained people from the Baltic States for many years. It has a similar active programme for the training of Uighurs from the diaspora. This training programme is allegedly being funded by the NED. At least two training camps have already been held.

Leaders of the WUC, including its President Ms. Rebiya Kadeer, who lives in the US, have strongly denied Chinese allegations that the WUC had instigated the Urumqi riots, but it is intriguing that the unprecedented outbreak followed less than two months after the WUC held its Third General Assembly in Washington, DC from May 21-25, 2009 . Delegates and observers from Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, Japan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Norway, Sweden, Turkey and the the US attended the Assembly.Ms. Rebiya Kadeer was re-elected as the President of the WUC.

The WUC was established on April 16, 2004 in Munich, Germany, by merging the East Turkestan National Congress and the World Uighur Youth Congress. It describes its main objective as to promote the right of the Uighur people to use peaceful, nonviolent, and democratic means to determine the political future of East Turkestan.

The Lhasa uprising of March,2008, and the Urumqi uprising of July 2009 have brought home a rude lesson to the Chinese -- namely, that they cannot take China's unity and stability for granted. What happened in the Baltic States of the USSR can happen in China's periphery inhabited by non-Han minorities if they do not pay attention to their grievances, anger and political and cultural aspirations.

B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and ,presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies.
Last edited by Avinash R on 08 Jul 2009 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
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