Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

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shiv
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by shiv »

Speaking of conflict in the Arunachal Pradesh area her is a description of where the Chinese have to come from
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... al-Pradesh
Most of Arunachal Pradesh’s terrain consists of deep valleys flanked by highland plateaus and ridges that rise to the peaks of the Great Himalayas. The state encompasses three broad physiographic regions. Farthest south is a series of foothills, similar in type to the Siwalik Range (a narrow sub-Himalayan belt stretching across much of northern India), that ascend from the Assam plains to elevations of 1,000 to 3,300 feet (300 to 1,000 metres). These hills rise rapidly northward to the Lesser Himalayas, where some ridges and spurs reach 10,000 feet (3,000 metres). Farther north, along the Tibetan border, lie the main ranges of the Great Himalayas, where Kangto, the highest peak in the state, dominates the landscape at more than 23,000 feet (7,000 metres).
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

All this talk about China being able to take on India reminds me of Pink Floyd's lines:

Us, and them
And after all we're only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it's noz what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.
Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who.
Up and down.
But in the end it's only round and round.
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried.
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside.
enqyoob
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

shiv, what that means to me is that unless/until India occupies the other side of the Himalayas on the Tibetan Plateau, the Chinese are always coming downhill towards the Indian positions, and the Indian soldiers are faced with climbing uphill to dislodge them. And despite such terrain on their side, the Chinese have managed to lay rail lines to bring their supplies up and store them on the high mountain ridges, ready for when they need them. Indian soldiers still have to carry everything uphill..... twenty miles from the most forward railheads of India. We've lost before we begun to fight..
tripathi
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by tripathi »

To all those jernails recommending that india should use uighur movement to prick china must not forget that india too have its share of 150 millions to deliver shock to india :shock:
vsudhir
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by vsudhir »

OMG. The above posts have brought home with razor sharp clarity the sheer hopelessness of the situation only. The best we can hope for is losing the whole NE should PRC decide to attack.

The fact that they haven't attacked so far indicates that there may be issues giving them pause. But it says nothing of the fact that they could attack tomorrow. Game over only.
Yayavar
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Yayavar »

tripathi wrote:To all those jernails recommending that india should use uighur movement to prick china must not forget that india too have its share of 150 millions to deliver shock to india :shock:
There are a few radicalized folks in India, we already know that. However, you are incorrectly tarring a large section of Indians with one brush which is very self defeating. The happenings in Xinjiang have a different context.

Whether one has sympathies for Uighers, gives active support or passive support, or stays neutral is besides the point.
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

narayanan wrote: RayC: A small problem in my mind about this argument that India leaves the outer 20 miles of border areas devoid of infrastructure in order to delay the invaders. Well.. in that case India should have absolutely no concern about China building roads and rail close to their side of the border, hey? Indian Generals must be rubbing their hands in glee, saying:
Oh! Look! The Chinese are stupidly building rail line and roads near the border! Now we can invade them any time!


Also, it means that a single 2-mile-long train can arrive from Beijing, and unload an armored battalion at any point along the border, ready to roll across into India, and inside an hour they will be 20 miles inside before Indian Top Brass even wake up. The conflict will then start with India backed 20 miles in at the start, the first line defenders caught in pincers and surrendered, and the minimal infrastructure 20 miles inside, facing Chinese tanks. I don't see how this constitutes good strategy.. but anyway, this is OT for this thread, sorry. Maybe I should spend some time at the MIL Forum understanding these fine points, sorry.
Narayanan,


Without going into details, suffice it to say, that these roads and even the rail link is of concern since it leads to better logistics and speedier mobilisation for the Chinese into Tibet from the Mainland.

Unlike before, where the Chinese was disadvantaged to move the logistics and troops required, these roads and rail links has made it easier for the Chinese build up as also gives them better flexibility in switching of force. At the same time, it is worth note that these roads are prone to landslides and avalanches. One is not too sure of the maintaibability problems of the rail link.

It does not require me to iterate that China indeed feels that Tibet is theirs. At least, they are in occupation of Tibet. Therefore, it is plain that apart from the military reasons, these roads and rail link supports the population and brings in the tourists.

As far as IA Generals rubbing their hands in glee, as you so quaintly put it, and ordering the invasion of Tibet because they have the roads, if wars were so easy, then there would be no dearth of wars. In mountains and more so, in the High Altitude, the terrain and the logistics dictate warfare techniques and modes. Musharraf had rubbed his hands in glee and said, lets take a part of Kargil district and as you are possibly aware, he came to grief!

It is not that India considers any part of Arunachal as ‘no man’s land’. It is just that it is militarily prudent to leave certain stretches underdeveloped so that in the event of an offensive, these patches prevents a straight run (as it prevented in Kargil) and allows the Indian Army inherent flexibility to meet the challenge and thereafter take the battle into the enemy area. It is obvious that the mode of doing so is not for the public domain and discussion.

It is worth the while to see a relief map of Tibet and check the terrain through which the Chinese roads and rail traverse to understand the magnitude of the issues that are involved in launching operations by the Chinese.

In connection with your contention of the two mile rail load carrying an armoured regiment devastating India within the hour of disembarking all one can say is that If a two mile long train can arrive from Beijing, unload an armoured regiment and within the hour can roll across into India and enter 20 km of Indian territory, then warfare would be not an exercise that would require Generals to execute. It would be child's play and children, I believe, play such video games and do a magnificent job of it. I might add, even though I am not a Railwayman is that because of the High Altitude, it may not be feasible to run a 2 mile long train.

It is easy to talk of pincers and such grandiose schemes, but in actuality it is not so glamorous.

One has to merely study relief map to realise the challenges the terrain poses to both the attacker and the defender. In such terrain, armour cannot quite make sallies that Rommel’s desert corps conjures in the mind’s eye!

And warfare is not just moving armour as if it is the be all and end all of warfare. It requires slightly more than that and it takes years of learning. participating in exercises and fighting wars to even understand how wars are to be fought. Even then the basics are sometimes forgotten in the melee of war.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

narayanan wrote:shiv, what that means to me is that unless/until India occupies the other side of the Himalayas on the Tibetan Plateau, the Chinese are always coming downhill towards the Indian positions, and the Indian soldiers are faced with climbing uphill to dislodge them. And despite such terrain on their side, the Chinese have managed to lay rail lines to bring their supplies up and store them on the high mountain ridges, ready for when they need them. Indian soldiers still have to carry everything uphill..... twenty miles from the most forward railheads of India. We've lost before we begun to fight..
:rotfl:

I think you are fond of the adage - Making a mountain of a molehill.

Please pull out a relief map and have a look.

The Encyclopedia makes a generalised all encompassing view of the mountain ranges.

What is 'the other side of the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau? We are also on the Himalayas and we do overlook the Plateau.

If you feel that our railHs are far away, then could it be asked if Lhasa is bang on the McMohan line?

What makes you imagine we have not also brought stores and war materiel on ‘high ridges’?

We also have AT companies which are put to good uses and depending upon the classification and altitude they can carry colossal amount of load!

Just to help you on your way, you may like to see these maps:
http://mappery.com/map-name/Tibet-Tourist-Map
shiv
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by shiv »

narayanan wrote:shiv, what that means to me is that unless/until India occupies the other side of the Himalayas on the Tibetan Plateau, the Chinese are always coming downhill towards the Indian positions, and the Indian soldiers are faced with climbing uphill to dislodge them. And despite such terrain on their side, the Chinese have managed to lay rail lines to bring their supplies up and store them on the high mountain ridges, ready for when they need them. Indian soldiers still have to carry everything uphill..... twenty miles from the most forward railheads of India. We've lost before we begun to fight..
N3 I will link below a screen grab of Arunachal Pradesh from Google Earth on which I have marked elevations.

Aru. P is about 2000 m above MSL. The borders of Aru.P with Tibet are mountains that rise to 2500 (at the lowest) to 4000 meters. The further you head into Tibet/China from there - the higher you go and you start getting average elevations of 4000 meters in any direction 100 to 500 km into China from Aru.P.

Your theory is correct, but humans just don't work well at elevations of 4000 plus meters. Even aircraft have to take off with reduced loads.

So how do you dislodge any Chinese?

Not by climbing up slopes. You set up artillery and blow the crap out of them from 30 km away. Knock out their railway lines - one attack per day is enough to stop them from repairing it at 4000 m. And Indian a/c are taking off at 100 meters ASL from Assam with full loads and full fuel.

If you make "Welcome" roads for them in Aru.P they will pour down our own roads into the plains and spread out. They will then be impossible to dislodge.

Image
RayC
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

tripathi wrote:To all those jernails recommending that india should use uighur movement to prick china must not forget that india too have its share of 150 millions to deliver shock to india :shock:
How so?

If India 'helps' the Uighurs, I am sure what you term as '150 million' would surely be delighted!

It would be better to not be tongue in cheek, since that is insulting a community and doubting their loyalty as a community!

There are bad hats in all communties but that does not make the community as a whole bad hats.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Normal routine returning to Urumqi

Muslims' Prayer

As routine was returning to normal, the riot still had an effect on religious services.

Some mosques in Urumqi were closed Friday and Muslims were told to perform their weekly congregational prayer at home.

All five major mosques near the Southern Jiefang Road, center of the Sunday violence, were closed Friday morning.

Outside the Baida Mosque, at No. 441 Southern Jiefang Road, an imam explained that the place had been closed "for safety considerations" and advised people to perform prayers at home instead.

"Mosques in some sensitive areas were closed at their imams' suggestion," said an official in charge of religious affairs with the Xinjiang regional government. "Muslims normally perform rituals at home in time of plague or social unrest."

But mosques in other places in Xinjiang had the ritual normally.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 688781.htm

It is rather nice of the Imams, to have down their mosques on their own.

No nudge from the champions of the 'toiling mases'?

After all, the Hans are in the majority in Urumqi and hence their safety would be of paramount concern!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Rahul M »

The Indian Army OTOH came with this Sanhurst What-What Officer Corps and veterans of El Alamein etc., familiar with the British and American and later, Soviet weapons that were handed down, versus the Chinese' mass-produced rip-offs of second-hand, ancient versions.
if you are talking about '62, actually it was the IA that was armed with 'ancient' guns like the .303 while the PLA had the fully automatic AK-47 and sons.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by svinayak »

RayC wrote:

Just to help you on your way, you may like to see these maps:
http://mappery.com/map-name/Tibet-Tourist-Map
Are they showing AP in these maps
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Acharya wrote:
RayC wrote:

Just to help you on your way, you may like to see these maps:
http://mappery.com/map-name/Tibet-Tourist-Map
Are they showing AP in these maps

Aren't they?

Those who know where AP begins and where Tibet ends, would know!

Or goggle Tibet maps and you will have a better perspective

My aim was to show the topography and not get into Merlins magic!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Raj Malhotra »

RayC wrote: RayC: A small problem in my mind about this argument that India leaves the outer 20 miles of border areas devoid of infrastructure in order to delay the invaders. Well.. in that case India should have absolutely no concern about China building roads and rail close to their side of the border, hey? Indian Generals must be rubbing their hands in glee, saying:
Oh! Look! The Chinese are stupidly building rail line and roads near the border! Now we can invade them any time!

Also, it means that a single 2-mile-long train can arrive from Beijing, and unload an armored battalion at any point along the border, ready to roll across into India, and inside an hour they will be 20 miles inside before Indian Top Brass even wake up. The conflict will then start with India backed 20 miles in at the start, the first line defenders caught in pincers and surrendered, and the minimal infrastructure 20 miles inside, facing Chinese tanks. I don't see how this constitutes good strategy.. but anyway, this is OT for this thread, sorry. Maybe I should spend some time at the MIL Forum understanding these fine points, sorry.
Narayanan,


Without going into details, suffice it to say, that these roads and even the rail link is of concern since it leads to better logistics and speedier mobilisation for the Chinese into Tibet from the Mainland.

Unlike before, where the Chinese was disadvantaged to move the logistics and troops required, these roads and rail links has made it easier for the Chinese build up as also gives them better flexibility in switching of force. At the same time, it is worth note that these roads are prone to landslides and avalanches. One is not too sure of the maintaibability problems of the rail link.

It does not require me to iterate that China indeed feels that Tibet is theirs. At least, they are in occupation of Tibet. Therefore, it is plain that apart from the military reasons, these roads and rail link supports the population and brings in the tourists.

As far as IA Generals rubbing their hands in glee, as you so quaintly put it, and ordering the invasion of Tibet because they have the roads, if wars were so easy, then there would be no dearth of wars. In mountains and more so, in the High Altitude, the terrain and the logistics dictate warfare techniques and modes. Musharraf had rubbed his hands in glee and said, lets take a part of Kargil district and as you are possibly aware, he came to grief!

It is not that India considers any part of Arunachal as ‘no man’s land’. It is just that it is militarily prudent to leave certain stretches underdeveloped so that in the event of an offensive, these patches prevents a straight run (as it prevented in Kargil) and allows the Indian Army inherent flexibility to meet the challenge and thereafter take the battle into the enemy area. It is obvious that the mode of doing so is not for the public domain and discussion.

It is worth the while to see a relief map of Tibet and check the terrain through which the Chinese roads and rail traverse to understand the magnitude of the issues that are involved in launching operations by the Chinese.

In connection with your contention of the two mile rail load carrying an armoured regiment devastating India within the hour of disembarking all one can say is that If a two mile long train can arrive from Beijing, unload an armoured regiment and within the hour can roll across into India and enter 20 km of Indian territory, then warfare would be not an exercise that would require Generals to execute. It would be child's play and children, I believe, play such video games and do a magnificent job of it. I might add, even though I am not a Railwayman is that because of the High Altitude, it may not be feasible to run a 2 mile long train.

It is easy to talk of pincers and such grandiose schemes, but in actuality it is not so glamorous.

One has to merely study relief map to realise the challenges the terrain poses to both the attacker and the defender. In such terrain, armour cannot quite make sallies that Rommel’s desert corps conjures in the mind’s eye!

And warfare is not just moving armour as if it is the be all and end all of warfare. It requires slightly more than that and it takes years of learning. participating in exercises and fighting wars to even understand how wars are to be fought. Even then the basics are sometimes forgotten in the melee of war.

I disagree with N3, afterall Indian Generals with their Brilliant strategy defeated Chinese in 1962 and have posts on top of Kailash.

Though I need to ask a small question to Ray, that apart from full scale war, Is it not true that enemy with many times better infra will be able to do better salami slicing which the brass and politicians will try their best to hide
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

ramana wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Rats or Gnats, I understand, that they will not be able to wrench East Turkestan free from the clutches of PRC. That is not on the agenda for Indian Foreign Policy. One should acknowledge what are UNREALIZABLES in the foreseen future.

The agenda for India is to hope for a realignment of forces in Central Asia. Up till now China and Islam have been good pals. Uyghur Uprising is important only as far as it can break that partnership, which is important for India. So if the Gnats are doing something useful for India, why heap them with scorn!
Mark my words this uprising will be storm cloud no bigger than a hand that will rise up to be a cyclone and will realing PRC itself. I agree with you that the cloud has to be nurtured and supported.
Ramana garu,
Some ideas on how to go about nurturing -

First Initiative
The Chinese try Sinicization both by sending in more Han Chinese to these outlying regions, but also through reeducation mechanisms and cultural curbs. So one 'attack' vector would be to nullify all Chinese 'integration' mechanisms for its minorities, especially the Uyghur and Tibetans.

The efforts should be directed at the preservation of Central Asian Cultural Heritage. For that it would be appropriate to set up a Central Asia Heritage Organization. Its mission statement should include the preservation of both Islamic as well as Buddhist Heritage.

Behind its benign name, there should be a meaty political agenda.

1. The primary membership should include
Turkey, Iran, India, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, and cultural representations from endangered Central Asian societies, namely Uyghurs and Tibetans. Russia should be included, and the pressure for that should be through academic institutions.

2. The Headquarters should be in Turkey.

3. Basically it should serve as an organization to rival the SCO. The political counterpart to this cultural grouping can be established later on, somewhere much closer to Central Asia.

4. The Organization should be led by some exile Uyghur, who has a couple of doctorates and is not considered an extremist. A sort of an Uyghur Dalai Lama, as far as media image is concerned but whom the Chinese hate just as much as the Dalai Lama. The Chinese would feel affronted by the choice and would choose to stay away from the group.

5. It would be financed by the member countries, but also through private donations from individuals and foundations (read American foundations).

6. One mission objective would be to prepare reports on the status of cultural rights and religious freedoms of the people of the region, as well as to work together with UNESCO for the preservation of cultural heritage of the peoples of this area.

7. In essence, this Organization is there only to mobilize the Governments of the region and the world to criticize Chinese policies, and allow the peoples of East Turkestan and Tibet to be able to interact with other nations much more openly and freely, without PRC always imposing sanctions on the freedom of movement or grouping. It can also take a stand on ethnic turbulence in PRC.

So what would this organization achieve? Besides being an active organization taking care of all the cultural heritage, etc. the political achievements would be to give Turkey a stewardship role in stressing the Türkic identity of the Uyghurs, something totally separate from that of the Han Chinese, so that Turkey is forced to negatively react to PRC's actions and curbs in East Turkestan at an institutional level. That sort of institutionalizes the PRC-Türkic rift. If it becomes a larger Türkic issue, then the Türkic CARs may also be forced to take a pro-Turkish view of this further pulling the CARs away from China and SCO. Considering that Turkey is part of NATO and an associate partner for EU, Turkey can raise some of these questions in this bodies, as well, triggering more criticism of China.

All this criticism and scorn being poured from abroad can also give a fillip to local rebellion in East Turkestan, if they know the world is watching them and Chinese reactions.

More satellite phones need to be smuggled in into East Turkestan, allowing the people there to make videos of the disturbances and send them out. DVDs of the brutalities can be made and be shown to the Uyghurs themselves.

Second Initiative -
Through the above mentioned first initiative, India can offer more medicine scholarships to Uyghurs and Tibetans for study in India. Doctors make exceptionally good dissidents. They can go back to their countries, and spread the word of 'freedom'.

Third Initiative -
There should be a sustained effort to make Türkic languages dubbing of Indian Films and these should be distributed in the region. It is an established fact, the people of the region crave of entertainment and especially one of cultural proximity to their own.

JMTs
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by SSridhar »

X-post

Effects of Uighur unrest on Pakistan
. . . the ethnic clashes between Uighurs and Han Chinese could have a long-term effect on Sino-Pakistan relations. . . . the manner in which these ethnic tensions play out in the coming months could fracture the ‘all-weather’ friendship that Pakistan and China have long enjoyed.

But if a militant movement that can trace its roots to Pakistan gains momentum in Xinjiang, the ire that Beijing is currently venting on the Uighurs — by detaining 1,400 of them, closing down mosques and upholding economically repressive policies — could be unleashed on Islamabad instead. 8)

In 2001, it was reported that up to 10,000 Uighurs had arrived in Pakistan to receive religious education. Many of these students were also believed to have received militant training and were recruited by the Lashkar-i-Taiba and Hizbul Mujahideen to fight in Kashmir.They continue to have a significant presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan’s tribal areas.

In April, Chinese officials met NWFP politicians to request that access to Uighur separatists be curtailed. China also asked for Uighur militants in Fata to be identified and apprehended. Now, a militant uprising in Xinjiang is in danger of being seen by Beijing as the consequence of Pakistan’s failure to follow through on its promises.

Under Gen Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan was able to preserve its friendship with China by addressing the Uighur problem head on. Uighurs as well as Uzbeks and Tajiks who sympathised with their pan-Turkic movement, were hunted down. From the late 1990s to 2003, Uighurs were expelled from madressahs and their businesses were shut down. In October 2004, Pakistani troops also killed ETIM leader Hasan Mahsum in South Waziristan. This aggressive stance against the Uighurs made Islamabad’s allegiance to Beijing on the Xinjiang issue clear. It also set aside any concerns that Pakistanis would want to extend a helping hand to their Muslim brothers and sisters in China.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by shravan »

http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2009/07/1 ... g-problem/

The letter was written to Mr. Ruan Yunfei 冉云飞, a well-known Chinese writer and blogger, by someone from a very small minority group in Xinjiang after the Urumqi Incident. It provides a unique perspective into the ethnic relations in the region. It is unique because the author is neither Han nor Uighur and the voice from smaller minority groups in Xinjiang is seldom heard. The author expresses her views with extraordinary candidacy and courage.

The original letter is here.

Letter from Xinjiang – Reflections on the Xinjiang Issue

冉老师:
Mr. Ran:


I don’t know if you still remember me, but I went to visit you last October when I was attending a conference in Chengdu.


The reason I write to you today is I want to share some thoughts on the Urumqi Incident as someone from Xinjiang.


I grew up in a frontier town in Northern Xinjiang. The local Uighurs is a small number. Most of the locals belong to other smaller ethnic groups and are obedient.
Although we also have corrupted officials there, there are almost no revolts against the government.


I went to university in Xinjiang. In the universities in Xinjiang, Min Kao Han民考汉 students, that is, ethnic minorities who graduate from schools taught in Chinese, are all allocated to one class. Han Chinese students have their own classes. Moreover, there are also classes for Min Kao Min民考民 students, that is, those taught in minority languages. These Min Kao Min民考民 students are mostly ethnic minorities but there are also a small number of Han students.


When we go to university, all the classes have to be taught in Chinese. When we attend common courses [as opposed to courses for different majors – translator], Han Chinese students are taught together while Min Kao Han民考汉 students and Min Kao Min民考民 students are grouped together and taught in one classroom. In the class of ethnic minorities, the teacher has to resort to Uighur sometimes when the students can not understand the technical terms in Chinese [teachers for minority students are mostly Uighur – translator]. When this happens, we Min Kao Han民考汉 students are very frustrated [because they are schooled in Chinese and they can not understand Uighur – translator]. It is the same with some Uighur students. They are schooled in Chinese and neither can they understand the technical terms in Uighur. This affects our grades. [See NOTE 1]


I heard in Inner Mongolia all classes in the university are taught in both Chinese and Mongolian including sports. There, the Department of Chinese Language中文系 is called the Department of Han Chinese Language汉语系 because Chinese languages include more than just Han Chinese language (this fact is overlooked by many).


All Xinjiang universities have preparatory classes for students before they start university courses. All Min Kao Han民考汉 students who will attend universities outside of Xinjiang, Min Kao Min民考民 students and Han Kao Min汉考民 students [See NOTE 2] are required to take these preparatory classes. Only those Min Kao Han民考汉 students who attend universities inside Xinjiang are not required to take these classes. Min Kao Han民考汉 students who want to study in universities outside of Xinjiang attend one year of preparatory classes。 These classes are basically a repetition of high school materials and the fees are very expensive. Min Kao Min民考民students and Han Kao Min汉考民 students need to take two years of preparatory classes. If you can not pass these preparatory classes, you have to keep studying until you pass HSK exam (a Chinese language proficiency test, an equivalent of TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language). The test is very difficult. Some questions are so odd that even Han Chinese students can not get it right.) Among those who fail to pass the test, some from poorer families go back home after one or two years of preparatory classes. Some Kazak students can afford to study abroad in Kazakhstan (I heard that Kazakhstan government gives preferential treatment to Kazak students from China).For those students who barely pass the Chinese language test or only make their way through cheating, studying their majors later in the university is a nightmare because the classes are all taught in Chinese. As a result of the language barrier, many minority students have bad grades. This also affects minority graduates entering the job market, especially those Min Kao Min民考民 students. They have a very hard time finding a job. [See NOTE 3]

I saw many instances of religious interference in my university. For example, during the month of Ramadan, the woman in charge of our dormitory will “raid” our rooms at night to make sure the Muslim students are not observing Ramadan. The university will also request Min Kao Min民考民 students (most of whom are Muslims) to gather in the school’s dining hall after class and eat their meals together.

I find it difficult to ensure religious freedom for ethnic groups. On the one hand, the government interferes with Islamic practices. On the other hand, practicing a religion other than Islam is disapproved by other Muslims. During my study in the university, one of my classmates and several of her sisters converted to Christianity in private. In their ethnic group (Muslims), people who practice a non-Islamic religion are very much discriminated against and isolated. (Although I don’t like Christianity, I support their freedom of belief.)


On the one hand, both Han Chinese and Uighurs have prejudice against each other. One the other hand, people like us who are from a much smaller minority group have even less social status. Han Chinese think we are a minority people and discriminate against us; Muslims thinks if we are not Muslims we must be like Han Chinese and they discriminate against us too.


In addition, I want to share some thoughts on Wang Lixiong’s book My Far West, Your East Turkistan. I think Wang Lixiong’s book misses the target. He misunderstands the Xinjiang problem. He frames the problem in a bipolar opposition between him and his Uighur friend and forgets Xinjiang is a multi-cultural society of over 40 ethnic groups. This bipolar reasoning can also be seen in the title of his book. Everything is about “you” and “me”. It leaves no room for “a third person”. Wang Lixiong ignores the opinions of other groups in Xinjiang. The Hui driver who accompanied him on the trip had different opinions on many issues. Wang Lixiong simply dismissed them as a result of brain-washing by the government. He never attempted to understand why the Hui driver had different thoughts from the Uighur.
This is the first point I want to make.

Secondly, Wang Lixiong seems to have a preconception that ethnic relations in Xinjiang are just antagonistic. In reality, many different ethnic groups in Xinjiang live peacefully together throughout history. Wang Lixiong’s book is based on a notion of antagonistic ethnic relations. I don’t think he has really reached out to the common folks.


What’s more, I would like to talk about Xinjiang independence as someone from a very small minority group in Xinjiang. Personally, I don’t support Xinjiang independence. The reason is I think the democratic forces among the Muslims are too weak. As soon as Xinjiang goes independent, it will become a fundamentalist country. I am against joining the church and the state. Maybe someone will say that’s their tradition. Those who say so completely disregard other ethnic groups who also live in Xinjiang. I think in a fundamentalist society, it is hard to ensure much freedom. First, gay and lesbian rights are oppressed. In some fundamentalist societies, gays and lesbians are executed. Second, women will face more shackles in the society. In today’s Urumqi, many Muslim women put away their traditional robes and wear fashionable clothes. They want the freedom of choice. It will be very difficult for women to enjoy such freedom in a fundamentalist society. Third, the freedom to practice a non-Islamic religion will be threatened. Fourth, what about other minority groups who do not believe in Islam?


Consequently, from this perspective, I disapprove of Xinjiang independence. In reality, Xinjiang independence is unrealistic. Xinjiang’s neighboring countries in Central Asia have joined the Shanghai Cooperation Organization with the Chinese government. Countries in this organization joined forces on the issue of anti-terrorism and they also begin to cooperate on economic issues (oil pipes run from Kazakhstan to inland China). It seems Russia wants to join the organization too. Moreover, for Central Asian countries, they need a strong neighbor like China to hold off Russia and to ensure Russia will not interfere too much in their internal affairs. That’s why I don’t think the neighboring countries will support Xinjiang independence.


Speaking of Xinjiang itself, it has over 40 (47? I forget) ethnic groups, most of which are not Muslims. What these ethnic groups need is not a Uighur-dominated regime in the place of a Han-dominated regime. It is a democratic system that they need. They have already had enough living under the shadow of the dominant ethnic groups.


The Xinjiang problem is not a problem between ethnic groups. It is a problem of freedom and democracy. The Chinese government will not give freedom and democracy to its people; neither will it give to the Uighurs. That’s why the problem can not be solved. When the unsolved problem erupts, it erupts as an ethnic conflict.

I am very concerned about the situation in Xinjiang. I hope everyone I know is sound and well. If you Mr. Ran can publish my letter, it will be my pleasure.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Nurturing the Türkic-Sino Divide

previous posts on subject:
1. post

Shravan,

a very good find indeed.

Reading the article, I would like to add another suggestion:

The Central Asian Heritage Organization could include the following mission:

1) Making world literature, especially literature useful for education purposes, like scientific, engineering, and medical literature available to Central Asian populace. Furthermore the availability of dictionaries between Uyghur Language and Turkish, Hindi, English, French, German, Russian, Persian, etc would also help. Software too could be made available in Uyghur Language. This would decrease the dependence of Uyghurs to attain higher qualifications only through the han Chinese route.

2) Online Uyghur University could be established outside China, possibly also in Turkey, from where Uyghurs can attain their degrees. Such a university can offer a mixture of Uyghur Language and English medium university courses.

It is in India's interest, that the Sinicization of the minorities in China stops. Through the Central Asian Heritage Foundation, India can finance several projects includes Uyghur-Hindi Dictionaries and Language Learning Books, and much more as mentioned earlier.

By the way, what is being mentioned here, is just as relevant for Tibetan people and Tibetan language, where India can help in much more substantial way.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Raj Malhotra wrote:


I disagree with N3, afterall Indian Generals with their Brilliant strategy defeated Chinese in 1962 and have posts on top of Kailash.

Though I need to ask a small question to Ray, that apart from full scale war, Is it not true that enemy with many times better infra will be able to do better salami slicing which the brass and politicians will try their best to hide
Did they defeat the Chinese in 1962?

Well, my histroy requires revision and I did not study in Pakistan!

salami slicing?

Good, but it is swine flu season!

These terms are wonderful to hear!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Lalmohan »

N^3, you need to read Ashley Tellis' book on Indian nuclear weaponisation/deterrence to understand the conventional stand-off between India and China in the Himalayas - to which he devotes entire chapters. In short, after the IA re-organised, we have a very strong defensive posture, particularly in AP that will be prohibitively expensive for the Chinese to overcome conventionally. You could even argue that the little incidents in the late 60's tested out the theory and the salami slicing cleaver was blunted.
Similarly it will be too costly for us to 'take Tibet'.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Though OT, I will buy all the theories for the discussion that Indian Army is blissfully ignorant of their task. And that the Generals are chumps.

Could someone explain at to why the Chinese withdrew:

1 all the way to the North from Arunachal

2. but only 20 kms from the actual area controlled from Ladakh in 1962?

In this context, please read the undermentioned.

On 19 November it declared a unilateral cease-fire. Zhou Enlai declared a unilateral ceasefire to start on midnight, 21 November. Zhou's ceasefire declaration stated,

Beginning from 21 November 1962, the Chinese frontier guards will cease fire along the entire Sino-Indian border. Beginning from 1 December 1962, the Chinese frontier guards will withdraw to positions 20 kilometers behind the line of actual control which existed between China and India on 7 November 1959. In the eastern sector, although the Chinese frontier guards have so far been fighting on Chinese territory north of the traditional customary line, they are prepared to withdraw from their present positions to the north of the illegal McMahon Line, and to withdraw twenty kilometers back from that line. In the middle and western sectors, the Chinese frontier guards will withdraw twenty kilometers from the line of actual control.

Maybe these discussions should go into another thread, Rahul?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

So what Xinjiang really needs is a dual education system. The PLA-run Han Min Kao U. for the Elite, and a parallel system of madarssas modeled after LMU. "XMU"?

There is an easy way to beat the Official Prohbition against Ramdan fasting: switch from Beijing time to Mecca time and back as needed. Apparently, China, despite spanning 5 hours of time zones, only observes Beijing Time. Urumchi is at least 3 hours behind in reality.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Latest: 2.000 Uighurs shot dead by Chinese Army

They seem to have changed from the Xylon costumes to the new Hunting Camos, but now carrying machine guns.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Is asking for fasting on Ramzan a heresy?

Christians also fast during Lent.

Hindus fast on Tuesday or whatever day indicated by the God of choice. In fact, should there be a law that there will be just ONE God and that too decided by the GOI?

So, why is it that they are allowed to fast as and when they like and why are people in India allowed to do exactly what they like.

Is it wrong for the Uighurs to want the freedom to practice their religion the way they want?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Lalmohan »

the Uighur people need to embrace the benign Sufism of Indian Islam and find truth in their identity in the comity of nations... there is a huge danger that these people are lost to the wahabbis... an avoidable one IMHO
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

The Uighurs, as per my understanding, because of the Chinese subjugation, are quite clueless of the 'real' Islam.

Further, most of the Uighurs who went for Hajj or studied in Islamic madrassas were not allowed to return by the Chinese gocernment. They shacked up and formed little Uighur communities as Hotanabad and Kashgarabad in Pakistan and elsehwere.

Those in East Turkestan are not totally radical.

It is in Indian interest to encourage them to remain the way they are and also be a thorn in the side of the Han Chinese.

Now, there are those, possibly for religious affilication, who are not in favour of 'helping' the Uighurs.

Fair enough.

But would they care to answer as to why are we building bases in CAR or helping construct in Iran and Afghanistan?

Or have we sold our sole to the US?

Geo-strategy is not governed by religion.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Is asking for fasting on Ramzan a heresy?
What the Communist regime is doing to the Uighurs is what the Church-guided Oiropean settlers did to the people of the "Far West" of America and Canada many years ago.

Children were taken away from their families for "education" ALL actions or inactions that even suggested any remaining attachment to ancient native customs/traditions/religion etc. were ruthlessly stomped out, using corporal punishment and rape as weapons.

For instance, until very recently it was illegal to build a community "LongHouse" in the Canadian Far West. Lighting a traditional fire in the Longhouse (yes, they are smart enough to have holes in the roof for the exhaust) was a criminal offence. Gathering in a LongHouse was forbidden.

Maybe 200 years from now, the newly "enlightened" rich liberal Han will persuade the govt. to give "compensation" to the Uigurs, then living in Reservations in the middle of the Taklamakan desert. After taking away all their land and the resources beneath, and reducing them to a dispirited bunch of people eking out a living by conducting Native Dances and selling Turquoize stone jewelry to visiting Beijingese (I mean ppl not the 4-legged types). Though I can't see even that being a survival plan, because unlike Americans, Beijingese won't pay more than slave labor prices for the jewelry.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Small correction, RayC: Shouldn't that be:
Now, there are those, possibly for presumed religious affilication, who are not in favour of 'helping' the Uighurs.
8)

AFAIK, the CAR bases etc. are not being built on land controlled by people rebelling against the "lawful" governments of those nations, but I could be wrong on that...

Helping refugee communities to "remain as they are" in order to perpetuate irritants to others or maintain a public position of sympathy without being willing to do anything, has been tried. Examples are the Kashmiri Pandit camps in North India, the Tibetan camps, and the Palestinian camps. Helping people integrate into mainstream society, hold down productive jobs or build businesses, and advance to the level where they have enough time and resources to fight legally for what they want, is, I believe, smarter.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Kanson »

One clear advantage Chinese enjoys against us is there Industrial complex and business centers are quite far away from our border but ours are very close. Any "teaching lesson" by Chinese not only concentrate on territorial gains but also meant to cripple our economy. Do we have any answers to that ?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

narayanan wrote:
Is asking for fasting on Ramzan a heresy?
What the Communist regime is doing to the Uighurs is what the Church-guided Oiropean settlers did to the people of the "Far West" of America and Canada many years ago.

Children were taken away from their families for "education" ALL actions or inactions that even suggested any remaining attachment to ancient native customs/traditions/religion etc. were ruthlessly stomped out, using corporal punishment and rape as weapons.

For instance, until very recently it was illegal to build a community "LongHouse" in the Canadian Far West. Lighting a traditional fire in the Longhouse (yes, they are smart enough to have holes in the roof for the exhaust) was a criminal offence. Gathering in a LongHouse was forbidden.

Maybe 200 years from now, the newly "enlightened" rich liberal Han will persuade the govt. to give "compensation" to the Uigurs, then living in Reservations in the middle of the Taklamakan desert. After taking away all their land and the resources beneath, and reducing them to a dispirited bunch of people eking out a living by conducting Native Dances and selling Turquoize stone jewelry to visiting Beijingese (I mean ppl not the 4-legged types). Though I can't see even that being a survival plan, because unlike Americans, Beijingese won't pay more than slave labor prices for the jewelry.

I love the logic!

It is like saying that Even should not have eaten the apple and we would be saved today's miseries!

History is but a guide. It is not a Holy Cow! Or is it?

I presume you are a Hindu, I am not aware where you live. Is it India or is it abroad, Your quoting of foreign western examples indicate that you are far from our shores!

Nothing wrong in that. Do they allow you to practice your religion?

Or would you be comfortable if they insist that you forget your religion and join a Church?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

narayanan wrote:Small correction, RayC: Shouldn't that be:
Now, there are those, possibly for presumed religious affilication, who are not in favour of 'helping' the Uighurs.
8)

AFAIK, the CAR bases etc. are not being built on land controlled by people rebelling against the "lawful" governments of those nations, but I could be wrong on that...

Helping refugee communities to "remain as they are" in order to perpetuate irritants to others or maintain a public position of sympathy without being willing to do anything, has been tried. Examples are the Kashmiri Pandit camps in North India, the Tibetan camps, and the Palestinian camps. Helping people integrate into mainstream society, hold down productive jobs or build businesses, and advance to the level where they have enough time and resources to fight legally for what they want, is, I believe, smarter.
CAR bases are not in rebelling areas. But they are Muslims and you seem to be allergic to them.

These communities in Xinjaing are not 'refugees' in Xinjaing. They are living in their ancestral homeland as you and to some extent, me.

so, what is are you getting at?

You leave me perplexed!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

What I hear here is Uyghurs may have only one of two university degrees - either they do their degree at Peking University or at LMU. Anything else is a horse born with horns and a chapeau.

Cultures condemned to death deserve no sympathy, and nobody shall steal the hangman's chaddi, please. We want a proper orderly ritual with no surprises, thank you. Otherwise the hangman may start screaming and we'll do it in our chaddis.

Everything is ni hao! Why do we need this thread BTW?

We got better things to do, like getting all fracked in Chattisgarh! It doesn't even hurt anymore! Maalish Paalish helps, courtesy Zhōngguó!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Ah! :mrgreen: NOW some PRESUMPTIONS are coming out in the open!
I presume you are a Hindu, I am not aware where you live. Is it India or is it abroad, Your quoting of foreign western examples indicate that you are far from our shores!

Nothing wrong in that. Do they allow you to practice your religion?


See! Again, PRESUMPTIONS. If I am/were a Hindu, a Cow-Shipper or a Computer-Worshipper, what difference does that make to how I see the need (or complete lack thereof) for India to go start instigating riots in another nation (which is about all that "showing solidarity with the Uighurs") means, hey, pls?
Or would you be comfortable if they insist that you forget your religion and join a Church?

Er... how do you know that I haven't already "forgotten my religion and joined a Church" - PRESUMING, of course that "my Religion" did not have Churches?
CAR bases are not in rebelling areas. But they are Muslims and you seem to be allergic to them.

Aha! But your astute observation is that I have not expressed any reservations about India setting up bases in CAR nations, hey? So how DO you reconcile this terrible problem? Perhaps by revisiting some of your PRESUMPTIONS? Just a suggestion, of course.. 8)

Perhaps some of the answers can be found in this picture:

I always maintain that jumping to conclusions incurs a severe risk of falling into the Poo in the middle.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by ramana »

I dont see Turkey as an altrusitic palyer/ observer. Any aid from India should be directly channeled.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by vsudhir »

Uighurs Force Opening of Mosques
Boisterous crowds in riot-hit Urumqi turned up at mosques despite notices that Friday prayers were canceled due to the recent ethnic violence, forcing officials to let them in.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

ramana wrote:I dont see Turkey as an altrusitic palyer/ observer. Any aid from India should be directly channeled.
Ramana garu,

Altruist players would be hard to find saar. There is hardly a more zig-zag serpent than Pakistan, and still it is offering its services to multiple customers.

We have to take what is available. Till now, only Turkey has expressed any sense of outrage at what is happening in East Turkestan. Nobody else!

Besides, whereas most developed countries are beholden to PRC, Turkey may be less so.
Official data revealed that trade volume between the two countries increased over the years reaching 17 billion Euro in 2008, heavily in China’s favour with 15.6 billion Euro worth of exports to Turkey.
Should there be tensions between PRC and EU, Turkey stands to gain the most, as the nearest off-shoring manufacturing base for EU.

There are a multitude of groups operating in India, most however have their bases in some country other than PRC, be it Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, or Myanmar. PRC likes to work behind proxies and not directly. Any direct aid to Uyghur, who happen to be on PRC's list of Undesirables could lead to an uncomfortable diplomatic spat between India and PRC, and may even go beyond jaw-jaw. The effort India has put in to have a squeaky clean and principled image would go to waste, so the South Block pundits would hardly agree to direct aid. If there is something I am missing, would certainly like to be enlightened.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by ramana »

There is a guy named Stobodan at IDSA. I think he has a Phd and the credentials. He should be encouraged to create the foundation for CAR studies. And head a GOI taskforce on Central Asia.

RajeshA, Turkey might be the only one making noises but am not sure of its break with political Islam. I think Uzbegistan might be a good forward area.


Wiki on Uighur People

Very informative. GOI might pull a Paki and claim it as Mughal inheritance?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by SwamyG »

There are two things here.

1) Actual condition of the people - Uighurs. Is Chinese 'occupation' helping them or is it oppressing them?
1.1) If they are oppressed, are countries willing to help them out on a purely humanitarian basis?
1.2) Or is the oppression good for the globe in general? For example; do we need one more version of Taliban gaining more real-estate that can be used as a platform for their adventures.

2) How can countries 'exploit' the conditions of those people to its own benefit.
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