Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

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RajeshA
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Nurturing the Türkic-Sino Divide

previous posts on subject:
1. post
2. post
3. post

ramana wrote:There is a guy named Stobodan at IDSA. I think he has a Phd and the credentials. He should be encouraged to create the foundation for CAR studies. And head a GOI taskforce on Central Asia.

RajeshA, Turkey might be the only one making noises but am not sure of its break with political Islam. I think Uzbegistan might be a good forward area.
Ramana garu,
From what I know about the Turks here in Germany, which need not be representative, almost all are nationalist to the core, and many are devout Muslims as well.

The gist of my proposal is actually to bring about a divorce between Han China and Islam. Only their divorce can ensure the survival of the third pole in Asia, the Indics.

The political entente within Turkey, the cohabitation between secular military and the government by the moderately Islamist AKP led by Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, would not allow a too open pursuit of an Islamist policy, but since it is possible for Turkey to base their interest in the matter on a Turkic-brotherhood, an Islamist policy may not even be needed, and the secular security establishment could also give a green light for such a policy.

If Turkey's involvement is political Islam oriented, even then it would be acceptable, as then it might even be possible to call a lot more supporters like Iran, Arab countries to the cause. The possibility of a proper schism between PRC and Islam only increases, and does not decrease.

Basically India can live with political Islam if only the pressure on India from it were not overbearing, through terrorism, extremism, cut-off from Central Asia, etc. The fact that PRC gives support to political Islam to breathe down our necks, is what makes political Islam overbearing and exhausting, not political Islam alone. A schism between PRC and political Islam can contribute to political Islam becoming bearable for India, by taking away its potency in the form of collapse of nuclear-armed terrorism-exporting India-hating Pakistan. So political Islam should not be untouchable by India per se, at least not as long as PRC looks more threatening to Indics.

Uzbekistan, even as it is the most populous of the CARs (~20 mil), is still a pipsqueak compared to what would be needed to give a NWS UNSC permanent member China a proper headache. Turkey through its 75 million populace, a semi-developed industrial economy status, NATO membership, close to EU, and historical significance (at least to the white man) is much better in a position for enabling head aches.

JMTs
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Prem »

delete
Last edited by Prem on 14 Jul 2009 06:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Prem »

Prem wrote:The biggest lesson India can learn is the reason there is no peep from Mullah/Islamist or Ummaites: All these islamist and Western powers etc have kept silence becuase China holds big Danda in Her hand. This BC weepish behaviour in front of China and "hum yeh kardenge" behaviour in front of GOI points out to a realistic methods to remedy the fitna causing power centres within India.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by asprinzl »

I am amazed ad the postings by some folks here. Oh man....you guys are amazing indeed. For more than a year Pakistani pilots flying SL jets were indiscriminately bombing the Tamils to smitherens (why would Allah's chosen ones care for rice eating infidels anyways), with Pakistani officers guiding Chinese made SL artillery fires, and with Pakistani inspired Muslim Tamils infiltrating behind lines to being in intel.......what did I hear? A huge deafening silence despite the killings of more than a hundred thousand starving malnourished Tamils....most of them children, women and elderly.

Now, I hear this various super strategy of how to support the Uyghurs and some lamenting how come there is no outcry from the Islamic world? Should I cry or should I laugh?

Has anyone here ever met an Uyghur? I have and I will tell you guys this. The Uyghur looks like part Caucasoid and due to his/her lighter or white skin have this superior attitude not unlike the TFTA attitude. I kid you not. This are the people you wanna help? Before the arrival of the Han Chinese, the Uyghurs were gleefully opressing other minorities including other non-Uyghur Muslims. These other Muslim minorities today support the Hans.

You think the Tibetans would be happy if they found out you support the Uyghurs? Not at all because the Uyghurs were partly responsible for the demise of Tibetan Bhuddist culture in Xinxiang. Yes, there used to be a group of people who were ethnic brothers of the Tibetans and practised Bhuddism but today thanks partly to the Muslims, they are almost non-existant.

Central Asia has not only Turkic Muslims but also Aryan Muslims who are ethnically related to the Iranians. They don't like each other. In actuality, every group hate each other. You think the Kazakhs would take it lightly if you support the Uyghurs? You think the Russians would take it lightly if you support the Uyghurs? You think the Iranians would take it lightly? You think the Uzbeks would like it? You think the Kirghiz would? What about the Tajiks?

A couple of year ago, I met Mr. Islam Karimov in Queens, New York. He, as it turned out, is a friend of a friend. I have visited him in his country once since them. From my conversation with his lackeys and others, the gist of it is that there is animosity among them all. That is why till today Turkey's attempt to form a Turkic union is just wet dream. Even the Turkic Azeris are not too keen on Turkey's proposal.

These guys will all be too happy to build oil pipelines to Japan, Korea and China without shedding one drop of tear for the Uyghurs. India should be wiser than trying to nurture a thorn on the side of the Chinese.

One of the brilliant ideas I read on here is giving scholarship to study medicine in India. Wow...where do you suppose the Uyghur doctor is going to end up practising medicine after getting his degree? Most probably right there in India because for sure China aint gonna be giddily letting them in. In another words, India would be importing Muslims into India. Brilliant aint it? As if India has not her own Muslim problem. Sadly, this same India has not had a policy on how to bring to safety the many hundred of thousands of Hindus, sikhs and Buddhists who are trapped in really hopeless situation surrounded by genuinely blood thirsty Muslims in Pak-Is-Satan's wild west.
Avram
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

asprinzl

The answer is simple - geostrategy!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by asprinzl »

RayC....no offense....but its pax delusion
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

aspringl,

One has to understand the issue beyond the bias of religion or what has been done by a certain religious group in the past or recent history.

To simplistically put it, Europe including Russia has run many pogroms throughout its history against the Jews. Germany exterminated so many. Anne Frank’s family was not accepted in the US even when they appealed for help. Yet, Israel does business with them.

You may justifiably comment that Indians are not sensitive to the butchery by the SL Forces. But then, we also forget that Israel too had a major role to play in training such butchers and arming them apart from helping them to hone their intelligence system.

I think it is erroneous to equate the Indian sensibilities towards Pakistan with the Muslims. It must be realised that India has a sizeable number of Muslims and to nurse the idea that they are en masse anti India would be an error of judgement.

The Uighur issue may have sympathy in India. It is not because one is enamoured by Uighurs. It is just that they have put China in a spot. It requires no second guessing regarding China’s relations with India and so it require no elaboration.

Further, should there be violent unrest in Xinjiang, and there is the possibility of its separation, the Han Chinese will carry out a pogrom against the Uighurs. It is obvious that the Muslim world would not turn the Nelson’s eye to the plight of fellow religionists. Therefore, should they stop oil flowing to China, the Chinese economy would grind to a halt and all its modernisation to include the military, would come to nought! Thus, to believe that this is a spontaneous rebellion of the Uighurs would be a naïve assumption. There must be greater powers at work to ensure that China’s progress slows down and she is nowhere in her race to be a superpower! In fact, it is so coincidental that Obama meets the Russians, the Russian allow military overflights to Afghanistan thorough Russia without cost and the Uighur rebellion commences in real earnest and full fury – a phenomenon that never happened in the past! Speculative but worth note!

It is to the great powers interest that China is reined in. If unrest grows in Xinjiang and spurs Tibetans to follow suit, China will be in turmoil. It has 56 minorities and not all are amenable to the Han Chinese methods that are employed to make them ‘cooked barbarians’ (that is the Han Chinese terminology for non Hans who are Hanised).

If China is in turmoil, it will be to the world’s advantage and more so, for India!

Therefore, one has to be pragmatic.

Buddhists may have been barbarised by the Uighurs in Xinjaing in the past, but will they grouse if a greater enemy like the Han Chinese are put to discomfort? What would be the Tibetan’s immediate interest? History or the present?

The Kazhaks and the Russia would love if China is in deep trouble in Xinjiang. It would help them to get rid of the large Uighur refugees who are there and who can foment problems for them. One wonders if Russia or CAR countries find it comfortable to have a budding superpower as their neighbour.

Yes, India has been tardy of the plight of co-religionists in SWAT, but then she is also tardy about the plight of Indian students in Australia. That is India! Yet, it is interesting to learn that Pakistan complains that India is behind Baluchistan and Taliban problems!

Your dislike for the Muslim is understandable – it is related to the survival of your country. It is not so the case in India.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Pulikeshi »

RayC wrote: Your dislike for the Muslim is understandable – it is related to the survival of your country. It is not so the case in India.
Not understanding Islam and its political nature (not humans who are Muslims)
only resulted in a "small matter" of partition on two sides of India - :evil:
Hey but survival is important and so is burying ones head in the sand!

If India were truly secular and impartial - why no support for the Baloch, the Pashtuns, etc., etc.
Forget the idle speculation of Puki media. India (GOI) is too bound by inaction
- "Watching the situation closely onlee for eternity"
Heck, what is the end goal of India?
There is no evidence of long term thinking for internal matters - leave alone in the external environment.

Support for Uighurs translates into what for India?

1. Will the OIC change its position on Kashmir?
2. Will it make China collapse? Does India want China to collapse?
3. Will it make TSP disintegrate sooner? Does India want TSP to disintegrate?
4. Have we forgotten what Turkic people did to what was historically Bharat?
5. Will we quit being "Hindu Majority" India?
6. Will it make India gain anything?

Hope to hear some end goals rather than this knee-jerk opportunism on BRF.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Pulikeshi wrote:
RayC wrote: Your dislike for the Muslim is understandable – it is related to the survival of your country. It is not so the case in India.
Not understanding Islam and its political nature (not humans who are Muslims)
only resulted in a "small matter" of partition on two sides of India - :evil:
Hey but survival is important and so is burying ones head in the sand!

If India were truly secular and impartial - why no support for the Baloch, the Pashtuns, etc., etc.
Forget the idle speculation of Puki media. India (GOI) is too bound by inaction
- "Watching the situation closely onlee for eternity"
Heck, what is the end goal of India?
There is no evidence of long term thinking for internal matters - leave alone in the external environment.

Support for Uighurs translates into what for India?

1. Will the OIC change its position on Kashmir?
2. Will it make China collapse? Does India want China to collapse?
3. Will it make TSP disintegrate sooner? Does India want TSP to disintegrate?
4. Have we forgotten what Turkic people did to what was historically Bharat?
5. Will we quit being "Hindu Majority" India?
6. Will it make India gain anything?

Hope to hear some end goals rather than this knee-jerk opportunism on BRF.

First of all, the support to Uighurs (if indeed it is done) can never be overt. It will simply not be politically prudent.

Why no support to insurgencies in Pakistan? I would not like to comment, but Pakistan claims it is all India's doing. And it is not the media, it is their PM who has said it as also Musharraf. Also, it would be naive to believe that India would overtly support the insurgencies in Pakistan, if indeed India is/was at it!

It is no use decrying the GOI that there is inaction etc; more so, if one does not have information as to what the GOI is upto. I have no idea, but have you?

Why is the obsession for countries disintegrating as the sole goal of 'action' by GOI. Has India disintegrated because of the 'thousand cuts' or terrorist actions sponsored by Pakistan? And yet, this 'thousand cuts' and terrorists are costing India in terms of money, progress and lives

What difference does it make if OIC or any other country/ group does not take a stand on Kashmir. Do we have to beg for others to help us? I am sure Indians and the GOI have adequate confidence in itself to stand up for its belief, even if they are all alone. Take a leaf from Israel. They care a tuppence as to who thinks what of their action!

What is the harm if the Uighurs keep China busy and burning and the Tibetans joining in the fun. Of course, if we are in love with the Chinese or think we are thier vassal and we do not want them to have a payback for all the insurgencies she has sponsored in the NE, then that is a different matter.

Further, on the statement of mine which you have highlighted. Do you feel that the Muslim in our country have as a group affected our survival?

Also, how does the Partition come into the subject? Or the historical issues with the Turks. By that logic, it is surprising that so many Indians have made the UK as their home!

Why are we assisting Afghanistan in building its infrastructure and Iran being given a port by India? They are also Muslims and they have also been a part of the ravages done in our history. Why forget the Hindu Kush?

It all boils down to geo-strategy!

Religion has no place in geostrategy!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Yayavar »

asprinzl wrote:I am amazed ad the postings by some folks here. Oh man....you guys are amazing indeed. For more than a year Pakistani pilots flying SL jets were indiscriminately bombing the Tamils to smitherens (why would Allah's chosen ones care for rice eating infidels anyways), with Pakistani officers guiding Chinese made SL artillery fires, and with Pakistani inspired Muslim Tamils infiltrating behind lines to being in intel.......what did I hear? A huge deafening silence despite the killings of more than a hundred thousand starving malnourished Tamils....most of them children, women and elderly.
Really? Did 100000000000000000 die :). There were a large number of Sri lankan citizens of Tamil origin killed over 25 yrs, many by the LTTE. If SL was helped by Pakis to kill LTTE then why must anyone object?

The varied opinions in this thread range from passive to active support to the Uighers or even to the Chinese based on whether one feels that this will hurt the Chinese communist party, or in the long term be detrimental to India. Some also have sympathy for Uighers since the Uighers are an oppressed lot. Seems quite normal discussion to me.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

asprinzl wrote:A couple of year ago, I met Mr. Islam Karimov in Queens, New York. He, as it turned out, is a friend of a friend. I have visited him in his country once since them. From my conversation with his lackeys and others, the gist of it is that there is animosity among them all. That is why till today Turkey's attempt to form a Turkic union is just wet dream. Even the Turkic Azeris are not too keen on Turkey's proposal.

These guys will all be too happy to build oil pipelines to Japan, Korea and China without shedding one drop of tear for the Uyghurs. India should be wiser than trying to nurture a thorn on the side of the Chinese.
Relevant Information. Just shows that they are still in the process of finding their place in the world.
asprinzl wrote:One of the brilliant ideas I read on here is giving scholarship to study medicine in India. Wow...where do you suppose the Uyghur doctor is going to end up practising medicine after getting his degree? Most probably right there in India because for sure China aint gonna be giddily letting them in. In another words, India would be importing Muslims into India. Brilliant aint it? As if India has not her own Muslim problem.
There are Indian students going to China to study. As far as India is concerned (officially) these are Chinese students coming to India to study.

Avram,
I understand your doubts about such a policy. RayC saar has answered several points eloquently. I'd like to add some reminders:

o Israel has one set of enemies, the Muslims. India has two enemies, both deadly, Islamism and Han China.

o Israel has military superiority against all its neighbors, and the challenge is to fight off the sub-conventional military aggression. India has to fight off similar sub-conventional military aggression but with blackmail with nukes as constraints. Secondly our second foe, has a far bigger military superiority and a much bigger political space in the world (UNSC membership, world's manufacturing hub, holder of US debt, 3 times bigger geographically, etc. etc.). Moreover the two enemies also have a pact between them.

o Israel has diversity with Jews of different races, linguistic groups, sects, political persuasions sharing Israel. There is even a sprinkling of Israeli Arabs. What you don't have is a multitude of ethnic groups, religious sects, political persuasions, fighting for their own separate country. Their is clarity in Israel, that Israel is the Homeland of the Jews. India still has to go a long way for national consolidation, and we are forced to define India taking the 'sensitivities' of all communities into consideration, and thereby we invariably make compromises, and lose a coherent 'war-cry' (for the lack of a better word). In other words, we have to take the Muslims along, and cannot call one of our enemies by its proper name - political Islam. References to the other enemy we also hush up, lest we provoke it. So we have dilemma of lack of internal cohesion when facing our enemies.

So Avram, even as Israel and India both share an enmity with external Muslim/Islamic societies, we have to deal with the challenges differently.

Uyghur uprisings from 'our' PoV is all about a possible way to bring about a rift between our two foes - political Islam and Han China.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Rajesh,

Very well said!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by shravan »

Al-Qaeda vows revenge on China over Uighur deaths

Al-Qaeda's North African wing has threatened to target Chinese workers in Africa in revenge for the deaths of Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang, according to a risk analysis company.
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Al-Qaeda vows revenge on China over Uighur deaths
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Indonesians protest at Chinese embassy

JAKARTA (AFP) — Indonesian Muslims called for "holy war" and briefly clashed with security guards during a protest outside the Chinese embassy in Jakarta in support of China's minority Muslim Uighurs.

Several dozen protesters from a coalition of Islamist groups shouted calls for jihad or "holy war" to help Muslims in China's northwest, where unrest between Muslim Uighurs and Han Chinese has left more than 180 people dead.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

The Fun and Game starts.

All the piety that the Chinese govt expresses will become a burst balloon!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by VikramS »

avram:

There is no point complicating the issue.

The riots have served to illustrate the fact that cultural borders of the PRC are still far away from the political borders of the PRC. The very fact that these schims exist in the PRC is a revelation to many.

As long as China is ruled be the CCP with brainwashed citizens, it is for the benefit of the civilized world that the CCP borg be contained.

If the CCP borg has to be contained, the first step would be to limit the cultural boundaries of the PRC. The Uighur provide that opportunity as does Tibet.

It is also in the interest of Indic civilization that the unholy alliance between the Islamist and the CCP come to an end. The Islamists' bomb after all is a CCP bomb. So even if India has to support the Islamist it might be worth it.

Though there is a tendency to brush all Islamists in one stroke on BR, they have their variations too. There is nothing which suggest that an Islamist in Uighur is likely to harbor the same hatred for India as the Pakiban or is going to be as pure as the Pakiban. It is very likely the Uighur is going to be influenced by the Turks (a NATO member if I might add) and not the Saudi Wahabbi.

And lest we forget, India has one of the largest populations of Muslims, with an overwhelming majority of them law-abiding citizens who enjoy the powers they exercise in India's democratic set up. In the urge for self-flagellation, the focus on BR tends to be on the negatives; there are a lot of positives too which do not get enough air-time. RayC has articulated that quite often, and I agree with him.

It is high time, India too utilizes the forces of Islam for her benefit. There is nothing in any scriptures which suggest that India has to be at the receiving end of the Islamist fervor all the time. The West and the CCP have used the Islamist to serve their goals. Why not India? It is not that Islamist will disappear over night; most likely it will gradually learn to co-exist with the rest. Why not co-opt them and for a change let their fervor help India's cause?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

shravan wrote:Al-Qaeda vows revenge on China over Uighur deaths

Al-Qaeda's North African wing has threatened to target Chinese workers in Africa in revenge for the deaths of Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang, according to a risk analysis company.
Chinese often depend on being low-key, inconspicuous to avoid all manners of troubles in a strange land, which is not a bad strategy. Now the invisibility cloak is coming off.

Chinese also often take their own people along whenever they bring some project abroad on-stream, and even for the operations. Such methods often give rise to envy and animosity amongst the local populace, and raises the visibility level of the Chinese abroad.

Chinese now working in Africa will become far more conspicuous. If they increase the level of protection of their citizens abroad using Chinese security services, it will feel like occupation, making them even more unwelcome.

Once the attacks start against the Chinese, the Chinese would not be able to hide behind neutrality. They will have to unsheathe the sword of an upcoming superpower. Once you unsheathe the sword, it will be difficult putting it back. Just ask post-911 America. The snow-ball effect can be expected. A superpower cannot feign weakness the way India can. :mrgreen:

In fact, the Chinese have not even started to think about their vocabulary for the rhetoric to use in a hot war against Al Qaida or even political Islamism. Is the Godless Chinese Communist vocabulary, which is far more amenable for absolutes, ready for a War against Islamic Terrorism? I hardly think so. Which means, that sooner or later, all Muslims will get rubbed the wrong way (or is it the right way), making cooperation between Muslim countries and China much more difficult!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

The fact that the Africa wing of Al Qaida has come out and threatened China, says a few things:

o If it had been in Asia, where there is much kinship between the Chinese and other peoples, where the Governments either out of obligation to big brother, or their own problems with Al Qaida, felt compelled to come out against the Al Qaida threat, Al Qaida's PR would have taken a beating, as Asian countries would have come out in support for China and against Al Qaida. The message would have gotten drowned. Al Qaida's attacks on the soil of Asian countries would have pit Asian countries against Al Qaida. Asian countries are usually strong and stable in comparison, and the task of attacking the Chinese would have been much more challenging for Al Qaida.

o Attacks in Africa, where no Govt. is per se, culturally or strategically bound to China, will be much easier. The African states are much weaker in comparison and cannot provide the same level of security to Chinese. Moreover the Africans accept that their nation states are weak and need external help, so there is no question of their H&D being bruised, if they cannot prevent attacks against Chinese citizens. The Africans are also used to being used as proxies in the wars of other powers.

o Al Qaida's relations with Muslims in Africa probably go quite deep and Al Qaida is not looked upon negatively among the Muslims. Africa probably still lacks the 'ideologically progressive moderate' Muslim debates and constituency. As such, there should be a considerable level of Al Qaida penetration into African society, everywhere where there are Muslims.

o It is also to serve notice to China, that whereas Asia may well be the playing ground of China, Chinese superpower and business ambitions which take the Chinese to different parts of the Globe, are still vulnerable. If China wants to thrive outside of Asia, China would have to behave within Asia, especially within its own borders.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Chickens are coming to roost!

Enough of pious platitudes and homilies!

Smell the coffee, China!

Be more chummy with Pakistan!

Dig your grave!

Gone with the Islamic Wind!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by shravan »

China to protect Chinese overseas from terrorism: govt

"We will keep a close eye on developments and make joint efforts with relevant countries to take all necessary measures to ensure the safety of overseas Chinese institutions and people."
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Hundreds of thousands of Chinese work in the Middle East and North Africa, including 50,000 in Algeria, the report estimated.

"There is an increasing amount of chatter... among jihadists who claim they want to see action against China," Stirling Assynt report said.

"Some of these individuals have been actively seeking information on China's interests in the Muslim world, which they could use for targeting purposes."

Qin did not comment directly on the Stirling report.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Turkey calls for boycott of Chinese goods: AP
ANKARA: Turkey's industry and trade minister on Thursday called on Turks to stop buying Chinese goods to protest the ethnic violence in Xinjiang province.

Nihat Ergun's office said the minister asked Turks to boycott Chinese-made goods but that government had no plans for an official boycott.

"Let's check to see whether the country whose products we are consuming respects humanity,'' the minister said during a visit to the central province of Yozgat, according to the private Dogan News Agency.

Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc accused Chinese militia forces of hunting down minority Muslim Uighurs.
Update
Minister U-turns over boycott call: Hurriyet
ISTANBUL - Industry Minister Nihat Ergün, who called for a boycott of Chinese products over deadly riots and a crackdown in Xinjiang-Uighur Autonomous Region, now says the government has no such official position. Ergün’s remarks are his personal opinion and do not reflect the government’s stance on the matter, Industry Ministry spokesperson says
"If there is no respect for human rights, we need to take a stance toward this country’s products. We do not have to buy low-quality goods just because they are cheap," Ergün said Thursday, speaking in the central Anatolian province of Yozgat. "We should check whether the country that produces the goods we consume respects human rights or not."
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Muslim reaction to China unrest mostly muted by Josef Federman: AP
Arab regimes "couldn't criticize the attacks on Chinese Muslims because they themselves have no democracy," said Labib Kamhawi, a Jordanian political analyst. "They're in the same boat as the Chinese government."
Iran has been one of the few Muslim countries to speak out on the crackdown. On Sunday, the official IRNA news agency reported that Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki had discussed the ethnic clashes in a phone conversation with his Chinese counterpart and "reflected concerns among Islamic countries."

High-ranking clerics also condemned the crackdown and urged the government to complain to China.

"Silence and indifference toward such oppressions on the people is an unforgivable vice," said Grand Ayatollah Youssef Saanei, a major religious figure
The most powerful response from the Muslim world came from Turkey, where some 5,000 people protested in Istanbul on Sunday to denounce the ethnic violence and call on their government to intervene.
In the Arab world, two extremist Islamic Web sites affiliated with al-Qaida called for killing Han Chinese in the Middle East, noting large communities of ethnic Chinese laborers work in Algeria and Saudi Arabia.

"Chop off their heads at their workplaces or in their homes to tell them that the time of enslaving Muslims has gone," read one posting.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by girish.r »

RayC wrote:Chickens are coming to roost!

Enough of pious platitudes and homilies!

Smell the coffee, China!

Be more chummy with Pakistan!

Dig your grave!

Gone with the Islamic Wind!
Sums up their deeds..... 5 lines display 5 decades of sins!! :roll:
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Effects of Uighur unrest by Huma Yusuf: Dawn
Given the volatility in Xinjiang, it is necessary for Islamabad to take extra measures to ensure that none of the tumult in Pakistan exacerbates the militant threat in China. As the offensive against the Taliban heightens in North and South Waziristan, where most Uighur militants maintain bases, the army should be extra vigilant and aim to capture Uighur fighters for intelligence purposes. Pakistan’s relationship with China cannot afford to become a victim of collateral damage in our war against terrorism, even if many of Xinjiang’s problems are Beijing’s own creation.
Ummah back-stabbers!!!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by svinayak »

RajeshA wrote:
"If there is no respect for human rights, we need to take a stance toward this country’s products. We do not have to buy low-quality goods just because they are cheap," Ergün said Thursday, speaking in the central Anatolian province of Yozgat. "We should check whether the country that produces the goods we consume respects human rights or not."
Why not for the last 20 years? Why ask this question only now?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Avram: You just don't get it, do you? :mrgreen:

This is all deep strategy. Why support the Uighur uprising? BTW, there is no uprising now, there is only downtreading by the combat boots of the Han Xylons, but let us not let these facts stand in the way of geostrategy, please!

Reason:
The Al Qaida supports the Uighur uprising!!!! Duh! In fact, the time of the PRC is over. The Al Qaida has called for chopping off the heads of the Hans. They have also called for chopping off the heads of the Americans, the Israelis, the Indians, the Koreans, the Australians, the Canadians, the British, the Saudis, and they have already chopped off the heads of innumerable Pakistanis. And as we know, the Time of the Americans, the Israelis, the Indians, the Koreans, the Australians, the Canadians, the British and the Saudis is over. Ergo, the Time of the PRC is over! Qaid-e-Duh!

Let us see how much the Islamic nations hate the Chinese:
1. Iran gets its missiles from North Korea, and guidance systems from China, courtesy of Loral/Lockheed USA.
2. Saudi Arabia has excellent relations with China. In fact when Uighurs come to Saudi Arabia every year for Haj, the PRC tells the Saudis to keep them. FREE of cost!
3. PRC does not give visas to most citizens of Islamic nations to visit PRC.
4. Indonesia used to massacre Chinese for the fun of it, but now they are much wiser, and have excellent relations with China.
5. Malaysia has excellent relations with China.
6. Pakistan, of course, no need to elaborate.
7. The Muslim African nations are beholden to China, and in fact may be mostly owned by Chinese firms by now.
8. Bangladesh has excellent relations with China.
9. Myanmar, which has a large Muslim population, is dependent on China to keep its military regime alive.

So - the governments of Islamic nations and the government of PRC are in total sync on one thing: Treat their citizens like dirt, follow the Mushroom Management Theory (keep them in the dark and feed them pakistan).

But per our geostrategy whizzes here, it is a TERRIFIC idea to go piss off the PRC on something which is absolutely none of India's business, and is pretty-much what all these other governments (and the governments of Europe, Australia, US, and Britan) do to uncooperative minorities.

*****Pssssst! Avram, don't tell anyone but the real reason for this is that the Chinese, Americans, Europeans, Australians, and the whole world, are reading BRF, and we want to spread the misinformation that the Indian establishment is completely run by idiots. THAT's the GeoStrategy..***

And BTW, if you have a brain enough to try to reason things out on your own, and happen to disagree with this ***"NO-BRAINER*** policy, that is PRESUMABLY because you are so virulently Anti-Islam, probably a Hindoo! You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Geostrategy is all about getting fracked all the time, and not screaming. Now how does one say it? Yeah, you gotta take it like a man! :roll:
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by brihaspati »

Avram's concerns and comments should not be dismissed so lightly. One of the major problems with modern "Indian" strategists who are desperate to show their conformity to being strictly "neutral" and "secular" is that they show their complete lack of understanding of long term consequences of short term conformity with demands of the existing regimes.

I have tried to caution before that there should be a delicate balance in our appproach to the Uighur dilemma. They should be encouraged to enegage with the PLA, so that PRC is forced to increase its commitments and tie up increasing number of forces in this region. This helps us in creating a counter pressure in Tibet and the SE areas of PRC, if we can develop our presence in SE Asia. Mongolia, I think was also on the Indian feeler. From the Indian viewpoint, we need to create a situation where PRC has to face increasing and stretching military threats on the entire semicircle stretching from Mongolia in the north to Vietnam in the South.

But, at the same time, we cannot have an independent Islamist Uighur territory. This spreads the reach of the Sunnis from Saudia further, as independent militarist Islamist sharia touting bases for Jihad.

In our glee in the hopes pf bringing the fat CCP duck down to the vultures, we cannot forget the long term consequences of giving Jihadis another base in India's neighbourhood. For all our desperate attempts to be seen strictly neutral - and oh-so-secular - ("Hindoo bashing" is okay, is not "religion bashing" - for according to the Thaparites, Hindusim never existed - it was all a motley band of sects constantly and violently fighting each other - but do not say anything that seems to criticize any aspect of "Islamism" that has a direct consequence on the lives and safety of non-Islamics - that would be "religion bashing") non-recognition of the long term consequences of allowing Islamism to survive and flourish is a crime against Indians, including the IM - who are more likely to be left defenceless and caught in between the inevitable ruthless backlash against the Jihadis on one side and Jihad on the other side.
Last edited by brihaspati on 14 Jul 2009 18:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Acharya:

What do u make of the news dated June 30 (see the People's Daily link that I posted a few pages ago) that a top Turkish official (Gul?) was in Urumqi giving an address at the University in Urumqi, that he spoke in the local language (he used to work for many years as a faculty member at that university), and Turkey just signed another "PanchSheel" type agreement with PRC promising mutual non-tolerance of terrorism, separatism etc?

Did this 180-degree turn in the love-and-kisses occur within a week? Or should more be read into Gul's presence there right before riots broke out? I am shocked :eek: that you haven't caught this clear evidence of a conspiracy.

How much is this declaration about "we shouldn't buy cheap goods from human rights violators" have to do with Turkey's continuing efforts to kiss their way into the backside of Oirope?
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by enqyoob »

Yeah, you gotta take it like a man!


How about:
Don't cry out lyaaaaaaaauddddd!
Just keeeep it insiiiiiiiide!
Learn how to hide yore feeeeeelings!

"Geostrategy" is India begging to get into the Rabat Conference of the Organisation of Islamic States - and getting booted and spat upon all around the building, and still trying to crawl in. And still not learning.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

"Geostrategy" is like India boycotting all Mooosleeem cunttrees, because my Gawd, me thinks, they no like us!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by svinayak »

narayanan wrote:Acharya:

What do u make of the news dated June 30 (see the People's Daily link that I posted a few pages ago) that a top Turkish official (Gul?) was in Urumqi giving an address at the University in Urumqi, that he spoke in the local language (he used to work for many years as a faculty member at that university), and Turkey just signed another "PanchSheel" type agreement with PRC promising mutual non-tolerance of terrorism, separatism etc?

Did this 180-degree turn in the love-and-kisses occur within a week? Or should more be read into Gul's presence there right before riots broke out? I am shocked :eek: that you haven't caught this clear evidence of a conspiracy.

How much is this declaration about "we shouldn't buy cheap goods from human rights violators" have to do with Turkey's continuing efforts to kiss their way into the backside of Oirope?
My Chini friend says that something is really wrong. What makes a President of China to cut short his G8 meeting to go back to take care of things. He says the Vice President and others should have taken care of the situation.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Dilbu »

Who said only unkil can have 'good taliban'? 8)
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by Pulikeshi »

RayC wrote: It all boils down to geo-strategy!

Religion has no place in geostrategy!
RayC,

No offense, but am trying to understand the grandiose strategery but it does not compute!

You have an interesting Fatwa, yah? - "Religion has no place in geostrategy" :mrgreen:

So, Zbigniew Brzezinski was playing gilli-danda with Islamists for what?
Oh! You mean Religion can be used as a tool to pursue Geo Strategy,
but should not be the cause of Geo Strategy? :-?

In any case, seems like a lot of normative thinking passing off as realism.
RayC wrote: Further, on the statement of mine which you have highlighted. Do you feel that the Muslim in our country have as a group affected our survival?
Who is "our"? If it is Hindus - yes Muslims have impacted. If it is Secularism - yes they have.
If it is an atheist citizen of India - yes they have. As an ideology they have espoused views and enacted specific actions that are against all three "our"s. Heck, they have threatened the survival of fellow Muslims who do not share rabid, radical views. You think otherwise - try to draw a cartoon of the grand PBUHar and display it in your city of choice. (PS: I'd also agree if you said Hindutava chaps had a impact on the survival of us, in a similar vein) Anybody's ideology that is hell bent of changing everyone into one pure form or an other has an impact.

Hence, sub-continental Muslims have had an impact - would be unwise to ignore that...
In any case, what is this business of "our" Muslims versus "their" Muslims which reeks of condescension?
RayC wrote: Why are we assisting Afghanistan in building its infrastructure and Iran being given a port by India? They are also Muslims and they have also been a part of the ravages done in our history. Why forget the Hindu Kush?
Why is India leaning a bit more towards Shia than the Sunni? Example: Support for Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, support for Iran, etc. Why not work with the rabid Sunni Islamists?

Geo-strategy is not a belief system - Religions and religious forces are a reality, best to take them at face value.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

It is interesting to find so many commentators who feel that overt (open) actions is the only way geo-strategy is translated.

Sadly, since they are the only nationalist in India and the GOI is is dormant and sleeping, they feel that GOI is incapable of covert (secret) action.

GOI, much that many may think, is not staffed by total fools or day dreamers!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

Mass rally in Turkey to support China's Uighur: Press TV Iran
Thousands of demonstrators in Turkey poured into the streets to show solidarity with the Uighur minority in northwestern China.

Around 10,000 people gathered in Caglayan square in Istanbul on Sunday to denounce what they see as Chinese mistreatment of the Muslim Uighur minority in the Xinjiang region following the deadly violence in Urumqi.

The protesters --carrying flags of a short-lived Uighur breakaway republic in the 1930s --called on the Turkish government to intervene to protect Muslim Uighurs, they also urged the government to boycott Chinese goods.

The demonstration came a day after Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan described the violence in Xinjiang region as "a genocide".
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RajeshA »

China warns Turkish media of violence reports on Uighurs: World Bulletin
A Chinese diplomat, who was sent to Turkey as a special envoy after violence in East Turkistan, said Tuesday he was in the Turkish capital to "restore" relations.

Chinese diplomat, Aiquo Song, also a former ambassador to Turkey, paid a visit to the Anadolu Agency Director-General Hilmi Bengi and gave information about recent developments in East Turkistan Uighur Autonomous Region whose name was changed by China as Xinjiang in 1955.
Warning Turkish media

Several demonstrations were staged across Turkey to protest Chinese government's handling of the incidents.

Song said he was in Ankara to avoid "possible damages" in relations. He claimed relations were on the brink of a disruption and stated that Chinese government was seeking ways to fix relations.

Song also defended China's police killing of civilians, saying that it was natural to take "some measures" for stability during such an incident.

A number of Turkish broadcaster has conveyed information from Uighur repersentatives who told recent killings in their homeland according to information from witnesses. But China accuses Uighurs of exaggeration of the deadly incidents.

Chinese diplomat warned Turkish media to give "accurate" information for relations between the two countries.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

Pulikeshi wrote:
RayC,

No offense, but am trying to understand the grandiose strategery but it does not compute!

You have an interesting Fatwa, yah? - "Religion has no place in geostrategy" :mrgreen:

So, Zbigniew Brzezinski was playing gilli-danda with Islamists for what?
Oh! You mean Religion can be used as a tool to pursue Geo Strategy,
but should not be the cause of Geo Strategy? :-?

In any case, seems like a lot of normative thinking passing off as realism.

It has its place, but not as a hate machine to cloud thoughts and strategems!

What is the aim? The aim should be the bottom line to decide actions. If China is distracted and her resources are veered to maintain its stability, would it not be to India's advantage?

Narayanan may scoff at geo strategy, but if Xinjiang is in a 'disturbed' state, what do you think would happen to the front facing Ladakh?

If there is Tibetan unrest alongside, can China be so aggressive about 'Southern Tibet'?

It is also amusing to learn from some poster or the other than the Chinese roads and rail link has the Chinese armour rolling down within the hour into India. Sadly, such pundits of doom have no idea of the terrain!

I am am not decrying their ideas, but good ideas that they maybe, it is in the realm of fiction and not reality.

It is also a canard to feel that the GOI is sitting and twiddling its thumb and not working for the country's interests. Everything cannot be in the public domain!

China, with its pious platitudes, does not 'interefere' in other nation's internal affairs. Give me another one! The Chinese statement is good for inclusion in the MAD magazine!


RayC wrote: Further, on the statement of mine which you have highlighted. Do you feel that the Muslim in our country have as a group affected our survival?
Who is "our"? If it is Hindus - yes Muslims have impacted. If it is Secularism - yes they have.
If it is an atheist citizen of India - yes they have. As an ideology they have espoused views and enacted specific actions that are against all three "our"s. Heck, they have threatened the survival of fellow Muslims who do not share rabid, radical views. You think otherwise - try to draw a cartoon of the grand PBUHar and display it in your city of choice. (PS: I'd also agree if you said Hindutava chaps had a impact on the survival of us, in a similar vein) Anybody's ideology that is hell bent of changing everyone into one pure form or an other has an impact.

Hence, sub-continental Muslims have had an impact - would be unwise to ignore that...
In any case, what is this business of "our" Muslims versus "their" Muslims which reeks of condescension?
The appeasement of Muslim is a political issue - vote bank politics, as is Dalit ke beti and because I am a Dalit, they are after my blood!

That apart, I know many Muslims who are more loyal than many Hindus!

If you draw a cartoon, it is not the Muslims who will protest. It is people like Manu Singhvi and Manish Tiwari who will set the ball rolling and I don't think Singhvi or Tiwari are Muslims.

Indian Muslims I allude to. They are as good as you and me.

I am not Mahatir addressing the OIC!

But you have still not explained how Indian Muslims are a threat to India's survicval?

Why duck the issue?
RayC wrote: Why are we assisting Afghanistan in building its infrastructure and Iran being given a port by India? They are also Muslims and they have also been a part of the ravages done in our history. Why forget the Hindu Kush?
Why is India leaning a bit more towards Shia than the Sunni? Example: Support for Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, support for Iran, etc. Why not work with the rabid Sunni Islamists?
Afghaniistan is Shia?
Geo-strategy is not a belief system - Religions and religious forces are a reality, best to take them at face value.
NO. As you have yourself stated - use it as a tool!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by RayC »

narayanan wrote:
Yeah, you gotta take it like a man!


How about:
Don't cry out lyaaaaaaaauddddd!
Just keeeep it insiiiiiiiide!
Learn how to hide yore feeeeeelings!

"Geostrategy" is India begging to get into the Rabat Conference of the Organisation of Islamic States - and getting booted and spat upon all around the building, and still trying to crawl in. And still not learning.
Totally correct.

And that is why we can buy Israeli arms and the OIC has no complaints!

And for those who think that the GOI is staffed with chumps, there was a chump called Narashimna Rao!

Manmohan is credit for India's breakthrough, but it was this sulky man who was the one with vision!

But then, all in GOI are sleeping and we at the BRF are the sole custodians of India's integrity and honour!
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by VikramS »

There is no need for India to come out in overt chest banging support of the Uighur. Further any thought of an independent Uighur nation is a pipe dream, which will soon be buried under the tracks of PLA tanks. What India needs is a pot on simmer, with periodic bursts towards the boiling point. The objective of course is to force the CCP/PLA to devote valuable resources in keeping the pot from boiling over, and containing CCP's imperialistic ambitions. Think Baluchistan.

The current economic crisis provides that opportunity since the schisms and inconsistencies which have been side-lined by the economic boom will now come forth. The CCP has made that job easier, since the average Han has a very negative, borderline racist attitude towards the non-Han natives of the PRC's political empire; possibly a result of the brainwashing needed to support the genocide wreaked on those conquered nations.

All India needs to do is to provide appropriate behind the scenes support to the people spear-heading the revolt. With the AQ in Africa already putting a prize on Han head, the people who exercise some control over the Islamists are already doing their job.

In the heat of the moment, it is often easy to forget that in spite of earth moving efforts by the Pakiban, non-Pakiban Islamists have typically kept their nose out of India. Over the past decade, it was a rare to see non-Pakiban involvement in attacks on India. Given the TSP's raisin-dieter and their central role in being the mother-ship for Islamists of all hues, their inability to channel non-Pakiban Islamists towards India should earn some attention. Often people forget that India has a huge Muslim population which enjoys better rights and opportunities than a vast majority of the Muslim world; India's soft power too can not be dismissed. These are facts which are not lost to a vast majority of the Muslim world which unlike the Pakiban has saner elements who can act in a rational manner.

Perhaps it is time for India to recognize the difference between a good Islamist and a bad Islamist (not to be confused with Pakiban) from her point of view. In a Utopian world where Islam ceases to be a dominant political force, India may have gotten away with ignoring the existence of Islamists. However, in the real world, India is better off engaging with the right elements of the Islamists. The Turkish Islamist is different from the Pakiban, and I presume the Indian strategists also recognize that.

This does not mean that India goes all it out in its embrace of the Uighur. AmirKhan and her NATO allies are already doing that. All India needs to do is provide back-end support as and when requested by the principal protagonists as long as it does not become too conspicuous.
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Post by ramana »

One correction. Its the PRC that is enimical and not the Han Chinese. Need to make clear the distinction.

RayC, Has clearly spelled out what are India's interests. From reading all the factors an indirect strategy is the best option for India.

What PRC has done is "sow the Islamist wind and is reaping the Jihadi whirlwind!"

India supports those who are willing to take it. The NA was opposed to the Talibanised Pashtun and its coincidental that they were Shia. They are also non-Pashtun. India did not support the Shia Pashtuns for they didn't want the support.

For the OIC to support India on Kashmir they have to give up being Islamist or get a reaffirmation/ruling about India being not Dar-ul-harab as the IM are allowed to practice their faith. There are ramifications of this.
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