26/11/2008: Never Forget. Never Forgive

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 16 Dec 2009 01:07

^^^

Or names like: Lahore-Nashak, Rawalpindi-bhasm, Peshwari-Trishul, Karachi-Vaporizer etc.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 16 Dec 2009 01:12

Prem wrote:VK Sinha Sir ,
Lets select or elect right kind of leadership in India before we expect any dynamic movement to crush or pay back our mortal enemies. Our politcial system , colonial type governing structure at centre is big impendiment in quick, sharp and severe response . We have to bear it till we make internal changes to inhibit encouraging rogue anti nation building elements within which BTw are much more inimical to our aspirations than any external enemy. Much force and energy is being spent to pleasing divisive elements which inhibit capacity to take care of many overt adversaries.

Prem Sir,

The reason why I call a few people on this forum as Sir, is because as an adherent of guru-shisya parampara I see Dronacharya and Kripacharya when I see people with 1000 plus posts on this forum.

It is meant truly as a sign of respect in a truly Indian manner. And in the case of Ramana Sir, with nearly 10,000 posts he is sakshat Ved Vyas.

with powers to kill me with his thumb if he so chooses – I am famous for understatements.

Also, my case in point about Israel is Operation wrath of God.
For the death of 11 Israeli's a woman had the courage and conviction of launching this operation come hell or high water.
I pray to Yahweh, that even if we dont, Israeli's will seek vengeance against the killers of Chabad house.
From Wikipedia:

While the first wave of assassinations from October 1972 to early 1973 caused greater consternation among Palestinian officials, it was Operation Spring of Youth in April 1973 that truly shocked the Arab world.[51] The audacity of the mission, plus the fact that senior leaders such as Yasser Arafat, Abu Iyad, and Ali Hassan Salameh were only yards away from the fighting, contributed to the creation of the belief that Israel was capable of striking anywhere, anytime.

And I couldn’t agree with you more with what you have said sir. I would like to go out on one leg and say this: The Indian leaders of Pakistani origin have a history of soft side for Pakistan. Just, like Karachi based Pakistani’s have a soft side for India.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Dec 2009 01:17

SSridhar wrote:No evidence of Headley's role in guiding Mumbai assault: Indian intel agencies
“Hours of intercepted phone conversations show that the assault team was guided by three men, speaking Punjabi, interspersed occasionally with Urdu and English.

Named by surviving jihadist Mohammad Ajmal Amir—widely identified by his caste-name Kasab—as senior Lashkar military operatives, Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi, Muzammil Bhat and Abu Hamza, the men used voice-over-internet phone connections to communicate with the assault team.

These three were in contact with the three groups at the Taj, The Oberoi Trident and The Chabad House at Nariman Point. It would appear that one person guided each group. Apparently that person would be aware of the maps and the objectives.

Kasab and his partner were the distraction part, meant only to create a diversion at the begining so that the three teams could hole into their targets. Kasab's team was not expected to survive very long and were not given a phone to communicate with the handlers

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 16 Dec 2009 01:50

Apparently a HBO documentatry on the attack is supposed to air today:

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/terrorinmumbai/

Narrarted by Fareed Zakaria of CNN fame.

I remember his comments and that of Zain Verjee at the onset of the attacks.
They started describing how Indian troops are stationed in Kashmir and the usual
Paki descriptions of any attack on India with no mention of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits and
seasonal Pakistani misadventures in Kashmir that led to the stationing of the troops.

I just googled his name and was surprised to find that both him and Zain Verjee are of Indian descent
and Zakaria is from Mumbai.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 16 Dec 2009 02:03

^^^
The HBO documentary (and also Ch4) has been discussed here many times. It was also aired on CNN this weekend,
Zakaria is one of the few on CNN who have come out with clear statements like "All terrorists trails lead to Pakistan" and blaming in clear terms the role of L-e-T and Pakis.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Dec 2009 02:08

Zakaria has had a transformation of sorts in recent days, because the pakistanis have gone overboard and their actions are visible to all.

Otherwise Zakaria for plain survival used to indulge in some good ole == mostly.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Dec 2009 02:22

FZ is facing classic dilemma , Pakis are giving Islam a real bad name and he is thinking ahead. Rather get rid of Pakis before civilized world comes down to the Civilizational War choice ,determental for Islamist existance . And here in lies the solution to Paki problem.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Dec 2009 02:28

From the HBO documentary link, Interview with Daniel Reed, the Filmmaker of the Channel 4 and HBO documentary

The thing which surprised me the most was how soft-spoken the gunmen were, with a complete absence of any "affect" or emotional response to what they were doing, even when killing or being killed. They rarely betrayed any excitement, or even any passion for their cause. Their manner was calm and matter-of-fact throughout, even at the point of death. A couple of witnesses remarked how watching the gunmen at work they were reminded of a first- person shooter video game "like Doom 2." And the handlers were equally calm and casual, but with a very fatherly or school-masterly tone, by turns warmly affectionate and sternly rebuking, patiently encouraging and quietly exasperated. It put me in mind of child-abuse scenarios where the victim is groomed and seduced so thoroughly that he views his abuser as a loving friend

...one of the hostages who was murdered in cold blood by the terrorists at the Chabad House. The audio recordings which came into my possession documented the discussions between the gunmen and their masters concerning the fate of the hostages, and the outcome was a short burst of gunfire. That moment, and the silences which preceded and followed it, still haunt me and will do so for the rest of my life...

The truth is that as an institution the Mumbai police force - and indeed all the Indian security bodies involved - were simply paralyzed by the sheer momentum and dynamism of 10 determined young men armed with simple infantry weapons

...

But would London or New York have got the terrorists before they got a chance to kill so many? I doubt it, because most of the killing happened in the first 20-30 minutes, and the effect of surprise on the public in the line of fire was total and paralyzing. But there's no doubt in my mind that in any US or European city, the ordeal would not have been allowed to drag on for 60 hours, particularly once the terrorists no longer held any hostages.

On the LET

"LeT" was banned after 9/11 but still maintains its vast recruiting network of 2,000 offices in towns and villages throughout Pakistan, as well as its ties with the spy services - who in all probability are paying compensation to the families of the terrorists killed in the Mubai attacks, standard practice when a young man is martyred in the jihad against India. Operational funding comes from charitable fund-raising amongst the general population but also in the form of contributions by Gulf-based Pakistani businessmen and wealthy Saudi individuals. LeT's goal is to establish Muslim dominion across all of South Asia, and it appears that it has international aspirations too, judging by its choice of luxury hotels and a Jewish center as targets for attack in Mumbai. So this is a powerful militant organization with roots deep in Pakistani society, now well on its way to being a player on a global stage.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 16 Dec 2009 02:48

Amber G. wrote:^^^
The HBO documentary (and also Ch4) has been discussed here many times. It was also aired on CNN this weekend,
Zakaria is one of the few on CNN who have come out with clear statements like "All terrorists trails lead to Pakistan" and blaming in clear terms the role of L-e-T and Pakis.

I understand what you mean about Zakaria.

But, Here is a video of Zakaria talking about Kashmir:
http://www.mtviggy.com/desi/change-kash ... ed-zakaria

Look at his great consternation when he mentions the presence of Indian soldiers "in a tiny valley".
What ever he has said in the video is out of context.
He neglects to mention that Paki's brought jehadi, mujahid type triblemen to wrest control of Kashmir from India even before a political solution to that problem could be negotiated. He talks about "the people of Kashmir", which is the only place where I agree with him. With the massacre of millions of hindu pandits and the forced fleeing of millions more, the demographics of Kashmir has forever been altered - Just like it has been in Pakjab and Bangladesh( there were 25% hindus in Bangladesh in 1947 now there are less 9% while the Muslim population there has quadrupled in the same time. )

But, the only thing I have ever want to know is why these political pundits dont even mention the cause of Kashmiri pandits- a population which has become refugees in their own country.

It makes me mad because I have studied with Kashmiri pandits in several different schools and the horror stories that they will tell you about their life will haunt you forever.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Dec 2009 07:44

Gagan wrote:From the HBO documentary link, Interview with Daniel Reed, the Filmmaker of the Channel 4 and HBO documentary

...one of the hostages who was murdered in cold blood by the terrorists at the Chabad House. The audio recordings which came into my possession documented the discussions between the gunmen and their masters concerning the fate of the hostages, and the outcome was a short burst of gunfire. That moment, and the silences which preceded and followed it, still haunt me and will do so for the rest of my life...

The man is wrong. There is a woman who screams "Please don't kill me" just before the burst of guunfire. It will appear in my video - to be uploaded probably later today.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Dec 2009 08:26

Shiv-ji will you enhance that portion?

I am sure that these guys with sophisticated sound equipment should not have missed this. Perhaps they suppressed that part of the audio for the reasons of not showing a pleading hostage on tape.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Dec 2009 08:28

Mumbai 26/11- Making Allah do Pakistan's work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-35hzc8PQ4

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Dec 2009 08:46

The Thumbs up sign at the end was the punch line.

Wonderful !!!

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 16 Dec 2009 09:09

Shivji - Thanks.
Never forget!

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 16 Dec 2009 09:24

Excellent video sir.
Thank You!
More videos please.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 16 Dec 2009 10:47

Shiv, the problem with the Video is that it is asking Muslims commoners & religious leaders to condemn these acts. They will actually go ahead and give a feeble meaningless condemnation. As a matter of fact, they dish our their standardized statements after *EVERY* international act of terrorism.

You cannot catch thieif who is oiled up & wearing a chaddi. They slip off from your hands.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Dec 2009 12:54

surinder wrote:Shiv, the problem with the Video is that it is asking Muslims commoners & religious leaders to condemn these acts. They will actually go ahead and give a feeble meaningless condemnation. .
..snip..
You cannot catch thieif who is oiled up & wearing a chaddi. They slip off from your hands.

That may be true Surinder but I spend a great deal of effort watching who says what and I believe that a lot of things that really must be said or done are not being done simply because of a mental excuse that makes us tell ourselves and others (as you have done) that "Oh if we say X they will say Y and that is no use"

I see this as a needless and serious error of omission. It is one thing to assume that a particular act will get a particular response. It is another matter to seriously perturb the system and cause the discomfort that needs to be caused to really check if your prediction is correct.

How would it be if a million kafir media sources ridiculed Islamic nations and their scholars for hiding inside their burqas while half the murders on earth are committed in the name of Allah by people who think Allah is pleased by murder.

The cowardly Islamic scholars and the yellow lily livered Islamic countries have to decide whether they have the balls to challenge the Pakistan inspired idea that Allah means murder. And unless they are challenged to respond by a sufficiently large number of kafirs it ain't gonna happen. Assuming that they will respond in a particular way is IMO an error. Unless it is done we don't know.

To nail Pakistan, you have to nail the way they use Islam. That nailing has to be aimed at Pakistan. The recorded conversations of 26/11 are one such opportunity to nail Pakistan's Pakistaniyat - which is to use Islam and hide behind it.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 16 Dec 2009 14:37

shiv wrote:
...one of the hostages who was murdered in cold blood by the terrorists at the Chabad House. The audio recordings which came into my possession documented the discussions between the gunmen and their masters concerning the fate of the hostages, and the outcome was a short burst of gunfire. That moment, and the silences which preceded and followed it, still haunt me and will do so for the rest of my life...
The man is wrong. There is a woman who screams "Please don't kill me" just before the burst of guunfire. It will appear in my video - to be uploaded probably later today.

Similar thoughts in my mind too when I read the above interview of Daniel Reed.

However, it might be possible that he genuinely missed the woman's heart-wrenching, pleading words of the last moments of her life
as they were very feebly recorded - may be because of distance of the lady from the phone. How depressing to listen to the incident!

Great work Shiv, please keep it coming.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Dec 2009 17:37

dipak wrote: However, it might be possible that he genuinely missed the woman's heart-wrenching, pleading words of the last moments of her life
as they were very feebly recorded - may be because of distance of the lady from the phone. How depressing to listen to the incident!

It is easy to miss. I caught it only because I deleted all other non relevant (to me) sound bytes and visually displayed the file in a sound editor that displays the waveform. I was unable to enhance the woman's voice significantly. The interesting thing is that even the original recording of the gunshots sounds like a single shot. The Paki handler thinks its a single shot and the terrorist says that he killed both. But when I deleted the first few microseconds of the gunshot waveform what is left is the distinct sound of a burst of at least three shots - in addition to one that probably got deleted. It's basically "bang-tat-tat-tat" that sounds like one reverbrating gunshot.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Dec 2009 17:50

shiv, excellent work.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 16 Dec 2009 20:26

Shiv, Great work. Minor nit pick. The video at about 3 minutes indicates the following events to be at the Trident, but the subsequent images are from the Taj.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 16 Dec 2009 20:31

shiv wrote: It is easy to miss. I caught it only because I deleted all other non relevant (to me) sound bytes and visually displayed the file in a sound editor that displays the waveform. I was unable to enhance the woman's voice significantly. The interesting thing is that even the original recording of the gunshots sounds like a single shot. The Paki handler thinks its a single shot and the terrorist says that he killed both. But when I deleted the first few microseconds of the gunshot waveform what is left is the distinct sound of a burst of at least three shots - in addition to one that probably got deleted. It's basically "bang-tat-tat-tat" that sounds like one reverbrating gunshot.

AK does fire a 3 round burst.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2009 07:21

Mumbai 26/11 candlewala song self deleted

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 17 Dec 2009 08:24

^^ Appreciate the attempt.
Shiv, don't take offence if these are your relatives, but this is a candlewalla song.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 17 Dec 2009 09:18

Shiv wrote:That may be true Surinder but I spend a great deal of effort watching who says what and I believe that a lot of things that really must be said or done are not being done simply because of a mental excuse that makes us tell ourselves and others (as you have done) that "Oh if we say X they will say Y and that is no use"

I see this as a needless and serious error of omission. It is one thing to assume that a particular act will get a particular response. It is another matter to seriously perturb the system and cause the discomfort that needs to be caused to really check if your prediction is correct.

How would it be if a million kafir media sources ridiculed Islamic nations and their scholars for hiding inside their burqas while half the murders on earth are committed in the name of Allah by people who think Allah is pleased by murder.

The cowardly Islamic scholars and the yellow lily livered Islamic countries have to decide whether they have the balls to challenge the Pakistan inspired idea that Allah means murder. And unless they are challenged to respond by a sufficiently large number of kafirs it ain't gonna happen. Assuming that they will respond in a particular way is IMO an error. Unless it is done we don't know.

To nail Pakistan, you have to nail the way they use Islam. That nailing has to be aimed at Pakistan. The recorded conversations of 26/11 are one such opportunity to nail Pakistan's Pakistaniyat - which is to use Islam and hide behind it.

Shiv, I agree completely with what you say, (I have to quote yoru post in full). The Video seemed to say that an apology was not given & is needed. But the matter does not end with half-hearted toothless condemnations that Musliems have become expert at dishing out. What we need is really a sincere, honest, brutal & complete clarification as to why the Killers often invoke "Allah" & "Mohammad" before these bestial acts. Why do they not shout "In the Name of Budha, here is a bomb".

It is one thing to question it on an anonymous discussion forum, but it takes a certain amount of courage to bring this issue up in front of Muslims. They must be made to feel & understand that it is not the job of us Kaafirs to excuse & explain the association of Allah with terror, it is the job of Muslims. It is their faith which is being hijacked, not mine. The point needs to be hammered mercilessly. I think Indians are either too sensitive, or too timid to bring this point out in its full strength. In fact, the Indian media's first thing after Kasab was captured was something like "... Kasab was asked about Islaam, he did not really understand his faith at all .. he couldn't answer basic questions on Isalaam ..." Who understands it then? I victim is more eager to forgive & explain than the victimizer. Quite frankly, Kasab is a Muslim, born to Muslim parents, in a Muslim country. He was/is a brave young man who was willing to die for Islaam. If he is willing to die for it, it is more than likely he knows more about Islaam than I do. Who am I to question whether he is a good muslim or not.

The Americans & American media have been much much more blunt in this matter. They have boldly questioned the so-called scholars of Islaam. I routinely read letters to editors which bluntly point out that Muslim inidignation at terror is directed for Kaafir's ears & eyes; the Muslim elite, intelligentsia & Clerics should be addressing this and fighting with the "those who have hijacked Islaam". They ask that Kaafirs should really be only spectators in this within-Islaam dialogue, not spectators for whose benifit this is carried out. I think this is the right call: We kaafirs need to see a clash within Islaam---moderates who think Islam is hijacked against those have done the hijacking. Unless we see a clear & meaningful clash, all explanations are to be ignored.

But the bigger point is that crux of your argument is that Muslims (And TSP) can be shamed into correct behaviour. I am afraid that might be a misplaced assumption. Muslims have a huge capacity for criticism of their faith. Embarassment does not make them change or modify their behaviour. In India all the conqueres have left clear treatises as how they killed thousands & thousands of Kaafirs and "Surely Allah will now be pleased with them open the gates of heaven." Such written bullet-proof criticisms makes no difference in they shrill claims for equality & legitimacy of their faith.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 17 Dec 2009 10:21

Surinder, Shiv,
The more I see these videos, the more I feel angry and horrified. What are we trying to point out here.
It is a open secret that the terrorists are willing to die for Islam. No Mullah or Maulana can say that they will not goto Jannat just because they killed some kaffirs in the way of Jehad. In fact some of the Jehadis are going to Jannat by killing less pious Muslims as per local mullah.
Just because 'THE HOLY BOOK" does not meet the sensibilities of modern world doesn't mean anyone has the right to criticize it or go against it least of all a practicing Muslim.
It is what is written in it and as much someone tries to play with words and tries to contextualize it,fact is terrorists are inspired to kill innocent people by quoting from this book whosoever quotes it.
Why can't you quote Buddhist or Indian or Bahai literature to inspire someone to kill folks of other faiths. Why does my religion not show me glimpses of Jannat and Houri if I go and kill others.
The statements that you folks are looking for would always end up with ,"But all this is due to Palestine, kashmir, poverty in Muslim lands and blah blah" as if rest of the world is rolling in money and luxury.
The need of the hour is not to get statements from Muslim scholars who anyways are good for nothing, but to awake the ordinary non-muslim man and woman and make them stop apologizing for Islam.
Throught history, Muslim rulers and elites have killed,raped and plundered lands across the Globe in the name of Allah and Islam.
Lets start getting brutally honest. The system which can not protect innocent and and causes murder of so many Indians must not be protected for the fear of perturbing the existing balance.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 17 Dec 2009 10:34

{snip!} That is the point that Shiv and you are avoiding. And it's not enough to satisfy oneself with platitudes from "moderates", one needs rigorous and incisive analyses.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 17 Dec 2009 11:06

Surinder et al:

If you are willing to be "brutally honest" etc. and make judgements about other ppl's beliefs, consider these:
1. The Inquisition ass**les invariably cast their rape and torture sessions In the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, or the Holy Trinity and the Holy Church of St. Peter. More like the Church of St. Paul, alias Paulus, pronounced Phaullus in the original suddh Mediterranean tonque.
2. The mofos who went around burning and killing Indian citizens during the Gujarat riots of 2002 did so in the name of "Jai Hanuman! Jai Shri Ram! Bajrang Bali!" etc.
3. Yes, the damn drunk Sinhalese who were the constant terror of civilized ppl including my family in Sri Lanka in the 1950s-70s used to commit their assaults and murders in the name of "Buddhang.. Saranang.. Gatchaaami!"

Which is why, being perfectly willing to be "brutally honest", I will ban ppl who seek to derail discussions by invariably dragging in religion. So STOP the discussion of religion. Please.

As for Pakistan and Pakistanis, well... I agree with this:

That nailing has to be aimed at Pakistan. The recorded conversations of 26/11 are one such opportunity to nail Pakistan's Pakistaniyat - which is to use Islam and hide behind it.

Of course, then others would point out that the Saudis and Yemenis and Somalis and Lebanese and Sudanese share many of these traits of Pakis. So ppl start looking for the General Solution, and again bring up the Religion as the shared root cause. This is the route to defeat. The only way to look at it and remain sane is to blame the Saudi terrorism on Saudis, the Somali terrorism on Somalis, etc., or of course we can describe them all as Honorary and Dignitary Pakis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2009 13:32

surinder wrote: Shiv, I agree completely with what you say, (I have to quote yoru post in full). The Video seemed to say that an apology was not given & is needed.

Not really. It does not say that.

surinder wrote: But the bigger point is that crux of your argument is that Muslims (And TSP) can be shamed into correct behaviour. I am afraid that might be a misplaced assumption. Muslims have a huge capacity for criticism of their faith. Embarassment does not make them change or modify their behaviour. In India all the conqueres have left clear treatises as how they killed thousands & thousands of Kaafirs and "Surely Allah will now be pleased with them open the gates of heaven." Such written bullet-proof criticisms makes no difference in they shrill claims for equality & legitimacy of their faith.

Sorry Surinder I'm not sure how you arrived at this as the crux of my argument. It is not.

Pakis cannot be shamed. The only way to hurt them is to force them into a situation in which either they are declared murderous or Islam is declared murderous.

It is not up to kafirs to ask other Muslims to check the hijack of their religion. I have merely said that other (non Paki) Muslims deserve eternal shame for agreeing with Pakistan's actions by their silence.

In other words - either Islam is murderous, or only Pakis are murderous. That is a conclusion that all kafirs can reach. It is up to Muslims to choose which conclusion suits them. Muslim nations and Muslim scholars need to decide if Pakistanis are truly Islamic. If Pakis are truly islamic it means Islam is murderous. If Pakis are not truly islamic and Islam is not murderous - that conclusion too suits me fine as long as other Muslims/Islamic nations/scholars can develop their currently underdeveloped cojones to say it

Watch the first minute of the video again..

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 17 Dec 2009 18:07

surinder wrote: What we need is really a sincere, honest, brutal & complete clarification as to why the Killers often invoke "Allah" & "Mohammad" before these bestial acts. Why do they not shout "In the Name of Budha, here is a bomb".

Who am I to question whether he is a good muslim or not.

from here - http://kalchiron.blogspot.com/2009/06/i ... power.html

Chiron wrote:Philosophers come up with all sorts of philosophies they feel like. We have whole range of them. They are originators of memes. The blame for misuse of ideologies and subsequent massacre of people lie on the head of kings and policy makers who utilize the suitable meme from available set of memes for gaining political mileage. Just like Constantine for life time was massacring Christians and on his death bed, accepted Christianity and started massacring Pagans. Constantine made Jesus as popular as he is today. Ashok and Kanishka made Buddha as popular. Without Constantine and Ashok, Jesus and Buddha would have been just another philosophers.

Muhammad was one of the very few originators of religious memes who patronized himself to become so successful. He did not depend upon some king. This shows that he was a successful human being. He became an authentic policy-maker of his kingdom and as I said, political policy-makers are the ones to blame primarily for misuse of the ideological memes. Muhammad being originator and implementor of Islam, gets both the accolades for being so immensely successful and criticisms for using his own philosophy for gaining political mileage. The character was Adolf Hitler showed slightly similar trajectory. He came up with philosophy, he got power, he implemented his philosophy and became immensely popular. And later, infamous !!!

Muhammad was a man of power and always aspired to be one. He was an ambitious man. I am just looking at him as an ambitious politician and a human being, instead of divine messenger. This was not the case with Moses and Jesus as they were just another philosophers and not politicians and policy-makers. They came up with philosophy, people utilized it for their good and evil.

<snip>

Belief in Allah is not enough to ensure the place in heaven. One has to depend upon Muhammad's favours and his influence on god to go to heaven and get 72 hoors. Thus, Muhammad made himself more powerful than Allah. Thus, in Islam for all practical purposes, Muhammad, the Rasool, is supremely powerful figure. This is as perfect and complete as it can get. Muhammad will only talk to Allah about you if you were a true Muslim. But who determines who the true-Muslim is and who is not, herein lies the real crux of the issue.

<snip>

Propagation of Islam is in fact propagation of Mullah-based social power-structure associated with it. Sufis played a major role, yes. But once Islam was established, they found themselves enlisted as Kaafirs along with other Kaafirs. Any established monolithic power-structure does not like influx of new ideas. Rather it wants controlled influx of new ideas. They prefer standardisation and mass-production over innovation. This ensures efficient execution of power-machinery.

Even where Sufis introduced their abstract free-thinking ideas, this free-thinking was standardised and all anomalies were removed by forcible imposition and dominance of Deobandi Islam, which is now followed by Wahabi Islam. Wahabism is so far the most efficiently standardised school of Islam with maximum devotion of followers towards Qazi-Mullah power structure and minimum anomalies. Anomalies are looked upon as abnormalities and are violently uprooted. They follow the literal meaning of the book.

Wahabis can and have declared non-Wahabis as Kuffars. But so far, no Deobandi or Barelvi or Sufi or Shia or ahmediya or Bahai people have dared to declare Wahabism as Kufr and un-Islamic. The power structure, along with separation of Abdul and Ayesha from ability to think rationally, gives propagation of Deobandi and Wahabi forms of Islam maximum mileage. Most of others are already enlisted as Kaafirs and are on target list of suicide bombers eager to meet their 72 in paradise. This is because, deep down, every Mullah knows, that he cannot defeat the Wahabi interpretation of Quran as Non-Islamic unless Quran is reformed, which is not allowed. Hence it seems that deobandis will have to merge in with Wahabis or become as fanatic as Wahabis.

<snip>

Islam, when initiated, introduced much needed standardisation in otherwise free-thinking and dispersed Arabs. Standardization helps in efficient survival where resources are scarce and cost of living in terms of energy is high. Civilizations like India where resources are abundant and cost of living in terms of energy is ridiculously low, are better off being free-thinking and non-standardised because it is best suited for progress of mankind. Violent suppression of critical faculties of certain section of people leads to dissatisfaction between free-thinkers (Indic people) and standardised products (Sunni Muslims of Deobandi and Wahabi schools in particular) and hence leads to conflict.

Once ordinary Ayesha is emancipated from clutches of Qazi/Mullah based power-structure, the demise of this power-structure won't be far behind. It will be matter of one or two generations that this power-structure will meet its 72. Once Ayesha is emancipated, she will free Abduls as well. Because it is woman who holds the string of cradle and hence entire civilization.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Dec 2009 20:09

Shiv garu,
Is it possible to enhance Yocheved Orpaz's voice, when she pleads to the terrorists for all to hear?

Also it is possible that the woman is indeed Yocheved Orpaz, will it be OK to identify her with her name in the video?

There is more in that sound track.

The terrorist says something: "..."
Hostage says " Please don't, please don't kill m.." and the gunshots ring.

archan · Post by **archan** » 18 Dec 2009 00:59

Surinder, Chiron,
When n3 asks you to stop doing something, it is usually a good idea to follow the advice. No, we are not prepared to have a discussion on this forum on how to reform Islam - however you define it. So thanks and for your sake I am asking you to stop that line of argument as I see a "strike" looming in the horizon.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 18 Dec 2009 03:56

The thing to note here is Terrorists' handler says. "We are defending our religion (Islam)." Then, terrorists go on to torture, rape and kill innocent human beings. The deed is being done in the name of Islam by Paki terrorists.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Dec 2009 08:03

This is the absolute hypocrisy of it and the absolute bigotery of it all.
All these killers that N^3 identifies did so that they were "Defending" their religion, NOT attacking the other religion.

This is what happens when semi educated dabble in religion and fool the uneducated thus.

But this is going OT now.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 18 Dec 2009 11:30

Does anyone know what would have happened if 50 trained dogs had been unleashed on the Piglets in Taj and Oberoi?

Old Police officers in Bhind and Morena say that the dacaits of the Chambal valley could face any Police/Para military force but would still surrender in face of a canine pack attack by Police dogs particularly after watching one among them being slammed, clawed, mauled and mangled.

Nirantar · Post by **Nirantar** » 18 Dec 2009 14:31

Could have been a good idea, but what would happen to the hostages? The pack wont mind tearing the innocents and the piglets equally.

IMHO, a combination of a pack of hounds and crack commandos would have been the ultimate.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Dec 2009 17:08

What the special forces should have deployed were those Israeli Stabilized Remote Controlled Weapon Stations mounted on Cranes with cameras.

Bright Arrow

Sampson

These sniper machine guns with cameras, a few of them deployed all around the taj and the other locations would have looked inside through the windows and would have been a great help to flank the terrorists once their location was identified.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 18 Dec 2009 23:11

Pack of hounds are trained to attack only Ammo carrying persons. Also after 26th nite, only the terrorists were on upper floors.
Hounds are also experts in attacking in pitch darkness and guns are useless in fighting them in close quarters. One would need knives in both hands to be able to ward them off, but if ratio is 4:1 or greater its impossible to stop Hounds.

Nirantar wrote:Could have been a good idea, but what would happen to the hostages? The pack wont mind tearing the innocents and the piglets equally.

IMHO, a combination of a pack of hounds and crack commandos would have been the ultimate.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 18 Dec 2009 23:20

Far from deploying dogs, it is with sheer luck that we managed to get even armed men in there. What if that MARCOS team was not available nearby? :shudder:

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Dec 2009 03:03

unfortunately hounds are not very good at opening doors