Indian Interests

[svinayak]

Chang s Hindi is good. Can he be a spokesperson for India when Indian TV is shown to China

[RoyG]

Govt proposal to muzzle bloggers sparks outcry

Atul Thakur, TNN | Mar 10, 2011, 03.44am IST

DELHI: A government proposal seeking to police blogs has come in for severe criticism from legal experts and outraged the online community. The draft rules, drawn up by the government under the Information Technology Amendment Act, 2008, deal with due diligence to be observed by an intermediary.

Under the Act, an 'intermediary' is defined as any entity which on behalf of another receives, stores or transmits any electronic record. Hence, telecom networks, web-hosting and internet service providers, search engines, online payment and auction sites as well as cyber cafes are identified as intermediaries. The draft has strangely included bloggers in the category of intermediaries, setting off the online outcry.

Blogs are clubbed with network service providers as most of them facilitate comment and online discussion and preserve the traffic as an electronic record, but equating them with other intermediaries is like comparing apples with oranges, says Pavan Duggal, advocate in the Supreme Court and an eminent cyber law expert.

'This will curtail the freedom of expression of individual bloggers because as an intermediary they will become responsible for the readers' comments. It technically means that any comment or a reader-posted link on a blog which according to the government is threatening, abusive, objectionable, defamatory, vulgar, racial, among other omnibus categories, will now be considered as the legal responsibility of the blogger," he explains.

Even Google, the host of Blogger, among India's most popular blogging sites, expressed displeasure at the proposal. "Blogs are platforms that empower people to communicate with one another, and we don't believe that an internet middlemen should be held unreasonably liable for content posted by users," a spokesperson told TOI.

Blogs, which are typically maintained and updated by individuals, have showcased their political importance in recent times and the internet community views these rules as a lopsided attempt to curtail an individual's right to expression.

"If individual blogs are an intermediary, then why can't Facebook and Twitter also be classified as such, as they too receive, store and transmit electronic records and facilitate online discussions," retorts the spokesperson of the Centre for Internet and Society (CIS), a Bangalore-based organization, which works on digital pluralism. "These rules will not only bring bloggers and the ISP provider on the same platform, but the due diligence clause will also result in higher power of censorship to the larger player. Imagine your ISP provider blocking your blog because it finds that certain user-comments fit these omnibus terms," the CIS spokesperson added.

Most experts, including Duggal, see these rules as the outcome of the government's one-size-fits-all approach — at least in regulating online activities — and ask for an amendment to the IT Act.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 668026.cms

[Atri]

^^nice. I like the report - czech born, chinese origin, and folks from across India (all dancing to the same drummer ). Shows what is right with India.

Chang's family is in India since 1800's, as per the confessions of his grandmother.. ALthough his grandma confuses qing dynasty with communist china.. How can be be called chinese Indian.. His ancestors came to India much before salman khan's ancestors crossed khyber and came to India.. chang is Indian and not Chinese-Indian OR Chinese origin..

[darshhan]

Quote:
Vision & Mission

VISION STATEMENT

The Missions office of CMC, Vellore seeks to equip health professionals and institutions to be an effective witness for the Lord Jesus Christ in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) and in the healing ministry.

MISSION STATEMENT

The Missions office CMC, Vellore works towards the transformation of the institutions by developing health professionals who can effectively communicate the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and can administer excellent health care.


Hence I don't see any problem with those chaps education... you OTOH need to learn how to use Google.

Neat, so the vision and mission statement of the "missions office" of CMC becomes the mission and vision of CMC itself! At least two of my school chums went to CMC - one for undergrad and other for post grad - never heard of a proselytising mission there...I will try and re-establish contact with either of them and find out about the "missions office"...

But that is purely anecdotal...Systemically, it must be curious that parents in Calcutta (to a limited extent Delhi as well) try to put their wards in these proselytising schools! ...Given that they are all out of convert through subtle means...And many of the parents themselves are alumni........Maybe they too need training in efficient "Google usage"!

Given that a few generation of hindu upper caste "elites" have been educated in these institutions and remained hindus, even if these guys are trying something, its got to be massively ineffective, no?

Somnath ji , it is no longer the case that convent/missionary schools are the best of the lot.Lot of public schools now can give these christian schools a run for their money.Even the parents are not that interested in these schools any more.This is true atleast for Delhi and NCR region and that too for a long time now.

And discrimination against Indic practices and thought does take place even if it is subtle.Also the environment is very oppressive.Corporal punishment is routine rather than exception.In fact some of the fathers are extremely brutal(can these ******** behave in the same way in any western nation?).Hardly any freedom to indulge in critical thinking is encouraged . Creativity is curbed.Those students who do excel do on their own accord.Public schools are performing much better on these issues.

It was our majboori that we tolerated these chumps for so long.But now that our own indian institutions like DPS,DAV etc are coming up we should be able to do away with these thugs.

[ramana]

^^nice. I like the report - czech born, chinese origin, and folks from across India (all dancing to the same drummer ). Shows what is right with India.

Chang's family is in India since 1800's, as per the confessions of his grandmother.. ALthough his grandma confuses qing dynasty with communist china.. How can be be called chinese Indian.. His ancestors came to India much before salman khan's ancestors crossed khyber and came to India.. chang is Indian and not Chinese-Indian OR Chinese origin..

Not to mention his Hindi was better than the male RNI host's Hindi! I really dont know how people who cant speak the language become hosts!

[Muppalla]

darshan, regarding schools, there are several private institutions, boarding schools, residential schools and colleges in India are flourishing and there is really no clamor for missionary and such convent schools. I beleive this is true across the nation.

[darshhan]

darshan, regarding schools, there are several private institutions, boarding schools, residential schools and colleges in India are flourishing and there is really no clamor for missionary and such convent schools. I beleive this is true across the nation.

Mupalla ji , AWMTA

[munna]

darshan, regarding schools, there are several private institutions, boarding schools, residential schools and colleges in India are flourishing and there is really no clamor for missionary and such convent schools. I beleive this is true across the nation.

So very true now! DPS and DAV rock all day and in my nick of the woods in India no convent chain holds even a decent candle to chain of the above two.

[RamaY]

I cannot help but notice the difference in lives/choices of my nephews/nieces who went to catholic convent schools and who went to hindu convent schools. Complete colonization of minds in catholic convents.

[Venkarl]

Exactly...I went to Bhavans institutions all my childhood and my younger sibling went to a convent.......a little difference was there......my sibling didn't know "shuklaam baradaram sasivarnam"..at one point of age......but used to sing some "Hellalujah" tune.....but yeah...my parents had such a close watch on us...that neither of us got strayed away from our roots....they made us do poojas on Vinayaka Chavithi, Navarathri, Sivaatri. Satyanaraayana Vratam etc when we were like in high school......in that way we knew about Gajendra Moksham or Lord Krishna's fight with Jambavant or Ganesh doing 7 pradakshanas around Siva Parvati etc.. at such tender ages.....I am not sure if today's Gen Nxt kids from convents have this awareness....but yeah it all come down to parents....

and this lady in front our house...said...when we brought our first car early 2000s...she came home and said Lord Jesus blessed us....when I got US Job Visa...she said the same....same with my sibling's job@infy....we don't have anything against Lord Jesus...but people like these just smother you by claiming your every success is because of Lord Jesus....and that generates hate...they don't understand that fact......my father intensified everything...poojas, homas and what not...My father and myself used to do surya namaskarams every morning while she was watching our house...these things drew the line....she finally stopped coming our home....but yeah once in a while she says "Jesus is watching you"...we'd just smile and pass on.

[Muppalla]

I went to Seventh Day Adv for my 4th grade and 5th Grade. From Sixth to 10th I went to Ramakrishna Missionary school. I can write the reams of difference. Probably my dad was fed up of hearing "Lord in the Morning, to The will I Thou shalt Here... " from his kids as rhymes and songs and he made it sure that we have to be shifted.

Seventh Day is one hell of an experience and I still remember. They used to strictly implement no bindis for girls (In AP all girls pre-marriage wear bindis). India's Independence day celeb was another funny stuff. They used to raise the flag like American way (not with flowers inside a folded flag and they fall when hoisted) where the flag goes through the rope from the bottom to top of the flap post.

Another bizzare thing was school on Sunday but Saturday a strict holiday. The school Principal's son (converts with names like Vijayender, Dharmender) skipped even the SSC exam as one subject was on a Saturday. It seems for this cult Saturday is a strict no work day and enjoyment day. They used to force us to come to school on Sunday. There was also a subject called as Moral Science. 10 comandments were part of the syllubus in my 5th grade. It is so intense for me to even digest such biblical language when I am barely getting to learn spoken English.

My father thought enough is enough and he changed me to Ramakrishna Mission school. My world changed from torture.

[chaanakya]

Awesome news!


MeiYang Chang wins Jhalak Dhikla Jaa-2011

Great job!

Well done indeed.
His father is a great dentist, and mother a highly skilled professional beautician. Chang was to become dentist and run the clinic of his father after higher degree that Indian Idol happened.

Just sharing a personal memoire.
Her mother was the who gave bridal makeup for SHQ. years ago before all this name and fame happened to Chang. Yet she still retains her simplicity and charm of her innocent honest smile. After makeup SHQ discovered that she has lost her diamond nose-pin given by her mother and we went to Her house at 10 PM and she came with us to her parlour and searched for that little trinket and found it. She still wears that and remembers Chang's Mother. He was to someplace on study then.
Any one having trouble with dentures would visit Chang's father. It never failed and always fitted. Great family and proud of 'em.

[Yayavar]

^^nice. I like the report - czech born, chinese origin, and folks from across India (all dancing to the same drummer ). Shows what is right with India.

Chang's family is in India since 1800's, as per the confessions of his grandmother.. ALthough his grandma confuses qing dynasty with communist china.. How can be be called chinese Indian.. His ancestors came to India much before salman khan's ancestors crossed khyber and came to India.. chang is Indian and not Chinese-Indian OR Chinese origin..

Agree, thanks for the link. Was commenting based on what i saw in the report.

[Rony]

Social Scientist Sees Bias Within

Some of the world’s pre-eminent experts on bias discovered an unexpected form of it at their annual meeting.Discrimination is always high on the agenda at the Society for Personality and Social Psychology’s conference, where psychologists discuss their research on racial prejudice, homophobia, sexism, stereotype threat and unconscious bias against minorities. But the most talked-about speech at this year’s meeting, which ended Jan. 30, involved a new “outgroup.”

It was identified by Jonathan Haidt, a social psychologist at the University of Virginia who studies the intuitive foundations of morality and ideology. He polled his audience at the San Antonio Convention Center, starting by asking how many considered themselves politically liberal. A sea of hands appeared, and Dr. Haidt estimated that liberals made up 80 percent of the 1,000 psychologists in the ballroom. When he asked for centrists and libertarians, he spotted fewer than three dozen hands. And then, when he asked for conservatives, he counted a grand total of three.

“This is a statistically impossible lack of diversity,” Dr. Haidt concluded, noting polls showing that 40 percent of Americans are conservative and 20 percent are liberal. In his speech and in an interview, Dr. Haidt argued that social psychologists are a “tribal-moral community” united by “sacred values” that hinder research and damage their credibility — and blind them to the hostile climate they’ve created for non-liberals.

“Anywhere in the world that social psychologists see women or minorities underrepresented by a factor of two or three, our minds jump to discrimination as the explanation,” said Dr. Haidt, who called himself a longtime liberal turned centrist. “But when we find out that conservatives are underrepresented among us by a factor of more than 100, suddenly everyone finds it quite easy to generate alternate explanations.”

Dr. Haidt (pronounced height) told the audience that he had been corresponding with a couple of non-liberal graduate students in social psychology whose experiences reminded him of closeted gay students in the 1980s. He quoted — anonymously — from their e-mails describing how they hid their feelings when colleagues made political small talk and jokes predicated on the assumption that everyone was a liberal.

“I consider myself very middle-of-the-road politically: a social liberal but fiscal conservative. Nonetheless, I avoid the topic of politics around work,” one student wrote. “Given what I’ve read of the literature, I am certain any research I conducted in political psychology would provide contrary findings and, therefore, go unpublished. Although I think I could make a substantial contribution to the knowledge base, and would be excited to do so, I will not.”

The politics of the professoriate has been studied by the economists Christopher Cardiff and Daniel Klein and the sociologists Neil Gross and Solon Simmons. They’ve independently found that Democrats typically outnumber Republicans at elite universities by at least six to one among the general faculty, and by higher ratios in the humanities and social sciences. In a 2007 study of both elite and non-elite universities, Dr. Gross and Dr. Simmons reported that nearly 80 percent of psychology professors are Democrats, outnumbering Republicans by nearly 12 to 1.

The fields of psychology, sociology and anthropology have long attracted liberals, but they became more exclusive after the 1960s, according to Dr. Haidt. “The fight for civil rights and against racism became the sacred cause unifying the left throughout American society, and within the academy,” he said, arguing that this shared morality both “binds and blinds.”

“If a group circles around sacred values, they will evolve into a tribal-moral community,” he said. “They’ll embrace science whenever it supports their sacred values, but they’ll ditch it or distort it as soon as it threatens a sacred value.” It’s easy for social scientists to observe this process in other communities, like the fundamentalist Christians who embrace “intelligent design” while rejecting Darwinism. But academics can be selective, too, as Daniel Patrick Moynihan found in 1965 when he warned about the rise of unmarried parenthood and welfare dependency among blacks — violating the taboo against criticizing victims of racism.

“Moynihan was shunned by many of his colleagues at Harvard as racist,” Dr. Haidt said. “Open-minded inquiry into the problems of the black family was shut down for decades, precisely the decades in which it was most urgently needed. Only in the last few years have liberal sociologists begun to acknowledge that Moynihan was right all along.”

Similarly, Larry Summers, then president of Harvard, was ostracized in 2005 for wondering publicly whether the preponderance of male professors in some top math and science departments might be due partly to the larger variance in I.Q. scores among men (meaning there are more men at the very high and very low ends). “This was not a permissible hypothesis,” Dr. Haidt said. “It blamed the victims rather than the powerful. The outrage ultimately led to his resignation. We psychologists should have been outraged by the outrage. We should have defended his right to think freely.”

Instead, the taboo against discussing sex differences was reinforced, so universities and the National Science Foundation went on spending tens of millions of dollars on research and programs based on the assumption that female scientists faced discrimination and various forms of unconscious bias. But that assumption has been repeatedly contradicted, most recently in a study published Monday in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences by two Cornell psychologists, Stephen J. Ceci and Wendy M. Williams. After reviewing two decades of research, they report that a woman in academic science typically fares as well as, if not better than, a comparable man when it comes to being interviewed, hired, promoted, financed and published.

“Thus,” they conclude, “the ongoing focus on sex discrimination in reviewing, interviewing and hiring represents costly, misplaced effort. Society is engaged in the present in solving problems of the past.” Instead of presuming discrimination in science or expecting the sexes to show equal interest in every discipline, the Cornell researchers say, universities should make it easier for women in any field to combine scholarship with family responsibilities.

Can social scientists open up to outsiders’ ideas? Dr. Haidt was optimistic enough to title his speech “The Bright Future of Post-Partisan Social Psychology,” urging his colleagues to focus on shared science rather than shared moral values. To overcome taboos, he advised them to subscribe to National Review and to read Thomas Sowell’s “A Conflict of Visions.”

For a tribal-moral community, the social psychologists in Dr. Haidt’s audience seemed refreshingly receptive to his argument. Some said he overstated how liberal the field is, but many agreed it should welcome more ideological diversity. A few even endorsed his call for a new affirmative-action goal: a membership that’s 10 percent conservative by 2020. The society’s executive committee didn’t endorse Dr. Haidt’s numerical goal, but it did vote to put a statement on the group’s home page welcoming psychologists with “diverse perspectives.” It also made a change on the “Diversity Initiatives” page — a two-letter correction of what it called a grammatical glitch, although others might see it as more of a Freudian slip.

In the old version, the society announced that special funds to pay for travel to the annual meeting were available to students belonging to “underrepresented groups (i.e., ethnic or racial minorities, first-generation college students, individuals with a physical disability, and/or lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgendered students).”

As Dr. Haidt noted in his speech, the “i.e.” implied that this was the exclusive, sacred list of “underrepresented groups.” The society took his suggestion to substitute “e.g.” — a change that leaves it open to other groups, too. Maybe, someday, even to conservatives.

[brihaspati]

Didnt I warn of things changing among academic "social scientists" in the "west", where the older "leftist" cosntructs are no longer entirely fully relied on? I mentioned this in the context of my own subtle and not so subtle fights when I land up in social-sciences conferences [an area completely beyond my professional]. Indian origin, and from name - Hindu by birth, "academics" in such meets have attacked me severely denouncing me as "Hindu fascist" etc. [one even used the term "loony" - and I drew her out in logical dissection which ultimately showed that by the same criteria all Marxists were loonies, all Islamic theologians were loonies, and she herself was also a loony].

But increasingly I find that "others" are genuinely interested to see alternative viewpoints to the Indian, born as Hindu, self-proclaimed Leftist, (and strangely over-represented by certain provinces of India like WB) ideological hard rock position. Have been surprised to find an increasing number of key researchers in linguistics, political anthropology, social psychology, organization theory, social identity interested to collaborate.

[Klaus]

^^^ B ji, your concept of 'labour of love" has to take off on various platforms if Indian interests from Indic viewpoint have to sustain in mainstream society. The primary reason is this very sentiment:

Given what I’ve read of the literature, I am certain any research I conducted in political psychology would provide contrary findings and, therefore, go unpublished. Although I think I could make a substantial contribution to the knowledge base, and would be excited to do so, I will not.

There would be innumerable gems which would purposely hide their true nature just like the magical Vaishalya Karani did with Hanuman. So, an effort similar to uplifting of entire mountain is required from an Indian nationalist group/lobby.

[negi]

Our Mr. Integrity is at it again

Manmohan seeks consensus on quota for Dalit Christians, Muslims
This is the problem in our country people try to seek consensus on 'WRONGS' (read unconstitutional) stuff. Read the complete $hite to get an idea as to where PMO's priorities are (shouldn't he be taking personal interest into more pressing issues as against demolition of some religious structure in Maha or even this quota)

[sanjaykumar]

Can social scientists open up to outsiders’ ideas? Dr. Haidt was optimistic enough to title his speech “The Bright Future of Post-Partisan Social Psychology,” urging his colleagues to focus on shared science rather than shared moral values.


This is much too politically correct. Conservatives are not interested in looking at society 'objectively' as they full well recognise the potential loss-to their privilege, their wealth, their idea of an orderly society, their 'morals' and ethics, their personal position as well as that of their god.

There are becoming clearer, neurological bases for the conservative liberal continuum. Perhaps it is significant that the general University milieu, and certainly academe, attracts liberals. It may however be justly observed that the most ostracised member of society is becoming the rural white male. Ironic.

[Rony]

Is the below statement correct ? Do shia's even from Iran and Iraq also take guidence from AISPLB ?


Shia board censures domestic violence

Abbas claimed there are over 200 million Shias in the world out of which 114 million Shias who live in India, Pakistan, Iraq and Iran look to the AISPLB for guidance.

"There are 16 million in India who meticulously follow the instructions issued by Shia cleric who are senior members of the panel. We hope that our resolution will be a milestone in the history of the community," Abbas said.

He said the board has also urged the Centre to provide shelter to Shias who are not comfortable in Pakistan.

"We have been receiving complaints of ill treatment with the Shias from India who had migrated to Pakistan. We want the government to help them out," he added.

The AISPLB has also demanded that political parties include reservation for Muslims in their election manifesto.

[JE Menon]

>>>"We have been receiving complaints of ill treatment with the Shias from India who had migrated to Pakistan. We want the government to help them out,"

Cough cough...

[brihaspati]

Can social scientists open up to outsiders’ ideas? Dr. Haidt was optimistic enough to title his speech “The Bright Future of Post-Partisan Social Psychology,” urging his colleagues to focus on shared science rather than shared moral values.


This is much too politically correct. Conservatives are not interested in looking at society 'objectively' as they full well recognise the potential loss-to their privilege, their wealth, their idea of an orderly society, their 'morals' and ethics, their personal position as well as that of their god.

There are becoming clearer, neurological bases for the conservative liberal continuum. Perhaps it is significant that the general University milieu, and certainly academe, attracts liberals. It may however be justly observed that the most ostracised member of society is becoming the rural white male. Ironic.

Actually, there are "attempts" at showing "possible neurological basis" for liberal-conservative continuum. But it is highly debatable and not yet really supported by studies in a wide sense. Problem lies in defining "liberal-conservative". The confusion starts with the bracketing and labeling of particular values and viewpoints as "liberal", for example anything that can be somehow claimed to be even remotely connected to some quote by Lenin or Marx could be seen as "liberal", anay lambasting or rejection of particular values of a particular religion could be seen as "liberal". At the same time other disliked values are deemed "conservative".

In fact even the so-called scientific attitude could be highly "conservative" in the sense of persistence. Kuhn's description of a scientific/academic community based on paradigms exactly describes the phenomenon as refining a certain paradigm [model/not necessarily "reality"] or viewpoint and model of that community. Once formed, the group will try to hold on to that view "conservatively". Persistence appears to dominate human behaviour - which can be explained even without so-called left-right-hemisphere of the brain differences. Persistence on a belief/view that appears to have worked for a large number of people ensures risk-avoidance for the large majority. At the same time you need to have a small window for a small number of people [or the same person to be conservative most of the time and take risks and deviate some times] to try out deviations so that if meanwhile circumstances that gave rise to the existing paradigm has changed - it is possible to explore new strategies.

"Liberalism" is not what attracts so-called academics to the universities. This is a confusion arising out of deeming certain "hard values" as liberal and hated other values as "conservative". That "liberal" academics can show every bit of viciousness and retrogression in their thinking and behaviour traditionally heaped on "conservatives" - is amply shown in sociological circles - with exemplary contribution from India too!

[sanjaykumar]

No time to post in detail, but to assume self-identified liberals are somehow immune from the sins of, what I will call, collectivisation, is of course remiss of those who do.

In the 1960s and 1970s those liberals who believed that China was the cat's Mao (hehehe) are fine examples of liberalism gone soft-headed.

[putnanja]

REVEALED: THE INDIA CABLES FROM WIKILEAKS

Starting today, March 15, The Hindu offers its readers a series of unprecedented insights into India's foreign policy and domestic affairs, diplomatic, political, economic, social, cultural, and intellectual – encountered, observed, tracked, interpreted, commented upon, appreciated, and pilloried by U.S. diplomats cabling the State Department in Washington D.C.
...
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The India Cables have been accessed by The Hindu through an arrangement with WikiLeaks that involves no financial transaction and no financial obligations on either side. As with the larger ‘Cablegate' cache to which these cables belong, they are classified into six categories: confidential, confidential/noforn (confidential, no foreigners), secret, secret/noforn, unclassified, and unclassified/for official use only.

Our contacts with WikiLeaks were initiated in the second week of December 2010. It was a period when Cablegate had captured the attention and imagination of a news-hungry world.
...
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Unlike the experience of the five western newspapers, which were involved in a prolonged and complex collaborative venture even while making independent publication choices (described in two books published by The Guardian and The New York Times), The Hindu's receipt, processing, and publication of the cables is a standalone arrangement with WikiLeaks, which, as in the case of the five newspapers, has no say in the content of stories we publish based on the cables.
...
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[ramana]

X-post...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1047977

X-POSTED from MRCA Thread

Since this thread is straying geopolitically-OT somewhat, I’d like to offer a few thoughts germane to the MMRCA contest:

The original American strategic rationale for the Pro-Pakistan tilt was set in the Eisenhower Administration, on the desks of John Foster Dulles and his brother Allen Welsh Dulles, who created the ideological schema through which all ‘Cold War’ matters were viewed by Americans. This thinking still colours institutionalized American foreign policy making to this very day. Together, the Dulles brothers successfully promulgated an extremely simplistic (mis)understanding of the Post WWII dispensation, wherein, “You’re either with us or against us”. Rakshaks will recall very similar sentiments expressed by Bush-43 after 9/11.

India, being true to her own ideological roots, while grounded in a deep appreciation for history, and informed of the high stakes involved, and with a long-view in mind; chose instead to walk a Non-Aligned path. If Rakshaks will permit me this; in so doing, India effectively threw America behind Pakistan, because the simple-minded US administration couldn’t figure out what else to do, and Pakistan was all too willing (which is not intended to blame India – she had to do what she had to do, and the Americans didn’t know any better – and apparently still don’t). This Indian decision wasn’t just a reflection of a post-colonial desire for independence. Nor was it naïve, facile or expedient. Indeed, it was quite the opposite. Indians of the day knew that when everyone picks one side or another, that wider war becomes *inevitable*. Yet, standing apart from either block carries its own dangers, which was a conscious decision taken with bravery, let no one doubt. For these reasons among others, India did not become a “poodle” of either Cold War superpower, as evidenced by the military engagements she undertook during that period – always on behalf of herself and none other.

In this light, anyone now advocating for India to closely ally with the United States is effectively abrogating pretty much all of Indian strategic thought going back just about three thousand years. No thinking person with pro-India inclinations should undertake this lightly (nor at all, I would suggest). Granted, this in itself does not instruct India not to pick the F-16 or F-18 if indeed either is technically superior to the other MMRCA contenders. But, it does caution against an overly-close or formalized alliance with the United States (a la CISMoA), because to the Indian mind, alliance is an obligation, whereas to the American mind, alliance is an opportunity – and this ideological and philosophical mismatch will bring nothing but woe to India if ever a formalized alliance is instituted between India and the United States. By all means, buy American warplanes if they’re in fact the best on offer and can be had without abandoning Indian sovereignty or military prerogative – but don’t do it for any supposed (short-sighted, ill-considered) geostrategic reason bent on alliance with America. That’d be stupid, and could set India on a very dangerous course.

Consider that India’s Non-Aligned stance gave the Americans enough of a reason to back Pakistan in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, despite the complete lack of any moral justification to do so. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan gave the Americans an even bigger Pro-Pakistan reason in the 80s – a reason that was shared between “all three” (being the US, Pakistan and China, owing to the ‘Sino-Soviet Split’). But let no one forget that when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the Americans effectively ignored Pakistan until 9/11/2001. Then, once again, Pakistan became “a major non-NATO US ally”. What does this mean for the MMRCA contest? It means that the Americans will offer India “the moon” (including a UNSC P-seat, F-16, F-18, even F-35, etc.), but only because of America’s own interests (such as Af-Pak, countering China, US manufacturing jobs, etc); American interests which seemingly are always calculated on very short time frames, subject to change without notice.

Now, I will admit that I have no way to prove this, but let me ask you, dear Rakshak, if India had ‘fallen in line’ with US interests when she first had the ‘opportunity’, do you think America would have exhibited the Pro-Pakistan tilt from 1950-1979? Of course you don’t and neither do I. Make no mistake, America of that day would have quickly disposed of Pakistan had India ‘played ball’. Furthermore, in a very real sense; America’s arming of Pakistan contributes to Indian insecurity, which (they hope) leads to Indian purchases of American weapons, thereby profiting America. In a way, India purchasing American weapons validates and facilitates this dynamic, and feeds into a continuing cycle of insecurity and American weapons purchases. The only way to effectively break this dynamic is to not buy American weapons. If the Americans see that the instability and insecurity they foster goes to enrich Russia or France, they will not play that game with the same gusto they have been.

When America’s interests shift, which they inevitably do because of the short-sightedness inherent in expedient strategymaking, so too does American support for her client states. In fact, I would argue, that the structural dynamics of the American establishment itself – with its ‘checks and balances’, open access for paying lobbyists, two-year-long election cycles, the milindustrial complex itself and the combined heavy dependence on middle-eastern oil and Chinese sovereign credit – this virtually guarantees that America’s interests vis a vis India will shift over the coming decades, as they have over the past decade, making it by no means certain that relations will improve along the current trajectory.

If history provides any salient lesson, we can be assured that the present push for warming relations will not last indefinitely, especially as the ramifications of global climate change increasingly pit the so-called ‘developed world’ at loggerheads with the ‘developing world’. If India plans to fly the MMRCA winner for 30-40 years, as I’ve read; then India should consider buying from a country that has exhibited a far greater degree of geopolitical constancy than has the United States of America. By my geopolitical estimation, that would indicate either Russia or France (Mig-35 or Rafale, respectively).

IMHO, far too many here on BRF are keen to kick Russia to the curb. I think this is also a short-sighted response to the aggravation of perceived cost overruns on the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya, and also the supply disruptions that came in the wake of the Soviet collapse. I also think there is some significant misperception of the strategic position of Russia. Allow me to explain briefly:

Firstly, third-party observers to the Gorshkov refit (like you and me) are in no position to question the validity of costs on the project. Any upset on the topic can only be informed by inflammatory media portrayals, ignoring the fact that the GoI/MoD finally came to accept things and the whole affair was settled. Nobody on BRF should overlook that.

Second, the Soviet collapse caused a great deal of disruption in Russia, and regrettably this resulted in some supply disruptions, but that was the past, and there is no indication that anything like that would happen again – so while Russia may not be a perfect supplier yet, they are on the road to improving and with continued patronage (and larger production volumes) the Russian milindustrial complex should stabilize its operations and improve their supply performance. Don’t forget, other deals with the Russians have already been settled (notably the FGFA) and so any steps to thicken the foundations of Russian producers is likely to pay dividends to India over the long term.

Third, with regards to Russia’s geostrategic position; like India, Russia has concerns about Chinese expansionism; like India, Russia has concerns about terrorism and Islamist militancy; like India, Russia has concerns about petro-dollar fuelled Islamism; WHILE AT THE SAME TIME; unlike the United States, Russia is an energy exporting country; and unlike the United States, Russia’s sovereign debt is below 10% of GDP (much lower than any other MMRCA contender).

Undeniably, Russia has gone through a rough patch since the collapse of the USSR, but things are improving rapidly. If India wanted to pick a geopolitical power with which to partner to march into her preferred future, it should not be one that is so beholden to China, which would include America, of course, but increasingly also the EADS member countries.

Some additional rebuttals:

1) A number of posters have commented that India, the world’s largest democracy, is a “natural ally” of America, the world’s oldest democracy. This depiction of America is wrong-headed because the United States didn’t become a true democracy until the Civil Rights act of 1964(!) and the Voting Rights Act of 1965(!!). By this measure, India is an older democracy than is the United States, so please spare us the revisionist depiction of American democracy – overlooking a recent history of racial segregation and disenfranchisement.

2) America didn’t enter WWII on the side of the British until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour in 1942! That’s right, America stayed out of the fray from 1939-1942, and in fact a number of American companies and businessmen were trading with the Nazis even after the Americans entered the European theatre, notably IBM which provided a punch-card system the Nazis used to “catalogue” concentration camp prisoners, thereby improving the efficiency of Hitler’s holocaust machine. The take-away lesson here: America has demonstrated a depth of moral bankruptcy that should give any Indian pause when considering formal alliances with the United States.

3) Have no concern about blow-back on the US-India nuclear deal. For starters, there are entirely different lobbies in the US for nuclear equipments and warplanes, and so little chance that a sour note for one will taint the other. More importantly, India has already made the sound decision to operate low-enriched fuel, heavy-water moderated nuclear reactors, and the Americans have long ago made the *cheap* decision to operate light-water moderated reactors. This means that India doesn’t really want US reactors, only access to other NSG products and fuel. BRIEFLY, the main safety advantage of heavy-water moderated reactors is that a loss of containment, and leakage of heavy water, would result in an automatic shutdown (because the reaction requires ‘slow neutrons’), whereas in the light-water reactors offered by America, a loss of containment and loss of water would result in a meltdown, which is exactly what we’re seeing in Fukushima right now. For this reason, I don’t think India or anyone else would consider buying a light water reactor anymore, because they are inherently unsafe, whereas pressurized heavy-water reactors will always ‘fail safe’. (IMHO, India would be better off buying an AECL reactor from Canada, like the CANDU-6 or ACR-1000, both of which will burn thorium, unlike any American reactor.)

[Sanku]

Ramana Saar; which thread do I go to do a hat tip to Ravi K for that exceptionally brilliant post above?

[ramana]

MRCA thread!

[devesh]

lots of thoughts put together relatively concisely and in a cogent manner. i've observed it's hard to write a long piece without losing sight of all the points you're trying to make, but Raviji did a pretty good job. i think there's thread for best posts, the above should definitely go there.

[svinayak]

REVEALED: THE INDIA CABLES FROM WIKILEAKS

Starting today, March 15, The Hindu offers its readers a series of unprecedented insights into India's foreign policy and domestic affairs, diplomatic, political, economic, social, cultural, and intellectual – encountered, observed, tracked, interpreted, commented upon, appreciated, and pilloried by U.S. diplomats cabling the State Department in Washington D.C.
...
...

This is not Indian interpretation but a US internal interpretation of the INDIAN foreign and domestic policy.

[ShauryaT]

The importance of constitutional morality

The short answer would be that constitutional morality rejects the transactional view of the constitution; it emphasises processes instead of the eventual outcomes reached. This is the key to managing the inevitable conflicts between different agents, each with their own personal agenda and absolute faith in their appropriation of popular sovereignty. Or as Mr Mehta puts it, ‘’Constitutional morality requires submitting these to the adjudicative contrivances that are central to any constitution—parliament, courts and so on.’’

But apart from abstract principle, constitutional morality must pass muster in more prosaic tasks—the economic and social development of India and its citizens.

[ShauryaT]

When constitutionalism fails

Rather than rejecting and turning up our noses at prior or current mass agitational politics which may also be unconstitutional and unlawful, we will be better off qualifying and tempering our view, keeping in mind the context of very limited economic freedom in India even today. Without economic freedom, political freedom enjoyed by the average Indian citizen is highly restricted. Therein lies the root cause of almost all unconstitutional agitation for political gain. In fact, when non-constitutional methods are used to enhance liberty and promote economic freedom, it strengthens the Republic.

[Vasu]

REVEALED: THE INDIA CABLES FROM WIKILEAKS

Starting today, March 15, The Hindu offers its readers a series of unprecedented insights into India's foreign policy and domestic affairs, diplomatic, political, economic, social, cultural, and intellectual – encountered, observed, tracked, interpreted, commented upon, appreciated, and pilloried by U.S. diplomats cabling the State Department in Washington D.C.
...
...

This is not Indian interpretation but a US internal interpretation of the INDIAN foreign and domestic policy.

Acharya Sir, but as the discussion in the Wikileaks thread is showing, these leaks are going much beyond being an American interpretation of India's policies. They now vindicate a lot of allegations against the CONgress which seems to have removed India from its agenda completely.

The UPeeA is bringing out all the arguments from a lawyer's handbook as to why these leaks are not enough to indict the government.

[ramana]

Vasu, Indians should throw out their politicians based on their own judgement and not on basis of half sided pees.

[ManuT]

Some of my views, which maybe have slipped or it rarely mentioned now. Putting forth so that some of the narrative is corrected or some of me is corrected.

One is, India had to pawn it's gold reserves when then Chandrashekhar was the PM, after years of practising Indian version of socialistic policies. As a consequence market refroms had to be undertaken and integrated with the rest of the world. IMF and WB are instruments of Angloshere which gave loans to GOI which was till recently at that time in Soviet Union's orbit.

Soviet Union had collapsed and India misjudged the events in former Soviet Union. For example, DD had sort of supported the KGB counter coup against Gorbachev 'as an expected reaction' against his reforms then faithfully reversing back when it failed.

Also, India GW1 flip-flopped wildly from one end to the other with then FM I K Gujral hobnobbing with Saddam Hussein and then allowing USAF planes (airlifting troops) to refuel at Bombay (?) then abruptly stopping it once it came out in the press.

It appears even today India's foreign policy, is still the same. India's response to Libya is not even remotely close to even the Italians, to which a lot is made of. It appears to be more close to be something per wikileaks something like "Ms G never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity".



Second is, the other is that their is a sort of conspiracy by the west to keep India embroiled as some design. Partition itself is sighted as evidence of that conspiracy. Also Pakistan as an ally is specifically mentioned as US ill intentions towards India. That somehow a Libya like UN resolution can tomorrow be put on India. That is just unreal.

My take is that the Independence movement was heavily influenced by left and at a level influenced by 1917 October Revolution.

This was not restricted to MKG (idea of communal farms in SA was based more on leftist ideas of John Ruskin, Leo Tolstoy, Thoreau) or JLN but the majority of the spectrum including Netaji Bose were influenced by the leftist ideology. Same was the case with revolutioanries like Bhagat Singh. I will go out on a limb here and say that except for a few like Tilak, Sardar Patel (who had the actual task of running the Congress on a day to day basis), J L Bajaj (?) the old Congress was left-lite in it's outlook. This is apart from overtly Communist Left.

I am of the view that old Congress, except for funding from them, did not have or see any role in formulating economic policies in consultations with industrialists. The economic policies were formulated, blinkered with Socialism, without or very little input from them, often against their protestations and economic sense. (for example nationalization of air India). This created an empire of babus which impacted on every facet of the citizen life, which led us to $2 billion reserves in 1990.

It was this mindset, that is my opinion, as the bigger of flaw of the Indian leadership rather than any conspiracy by US, UK against India after the establishment of the Republic. India decided to be a part of the British Commonwealth as a Republic. But because of combination of internal flawed socialistic vision of GOI, internal sabotage by moles like Krsihna Menon and pressure of 5th Columnist Left parties (if you consider than opposition does play a part in shaping the agenda) India came into the influence of the Soviet block. NAM was only a marginal player of some value, for example TSP was/is a NAM country too.

Pakistan was cultivated as a B Team, after India had been invited to align with the West and refusal by India to align because of it's blinkered socialist vision. A Team (India) was asked and it duly said no (started NAM).

In 1962, Despite their reservation US came to India's side. They made Pakistan fall in line and intimidated the Chinese behind the scenes to a large extent. From one narrative Ayub asked for guns and JLN asked for IITs from JLN so that much India can be thankful of. For some reason though, India continued on it's path to getting closer to USSR.

In 1971, US 7th fleet was ordered to move into Bay of Bengal by Nixon on the advice of Kissinger. Nixon, IMO, was a lesser man in a position of power (proto neo con, stupid people will take stupid decisions) and Kissinger, at best, a flawed genius.

Anyways, US does not get hung up on the past, for example it is open for business with Vietnam OTOH it took a 100 years for the British to successfully sell the idea of tea to the Indians.

There are 3 kinds of people - the Democrat, the Autocrat and the Anarchist. (Same can be said of ideas and of Nations.) Call them The good, bad and the ugly. As a strategy, good need to stick together because 2 bad tend to band together and form a nexus very quickly, whereas 2 good kind off tend to go in different directions. What is needed is a nexus of the good. The bad is NOT going to appreciate good only milk it for it's wealth and buddy up with ugly.

Having gone for swim in the other direction two directions (socialism and NAM) in the past India has no choice but swim with the West now. It should do it unabashedly as a strong Democracy in its self interest.

[Atri]

Today is ‎80th anniversary of Bhagat Singh-Rajguru-Sukhdev's martyrdom... While they rest in peace for long period in Vaikuntha, time for Indians to ponder upon what went wrong since their departure...

[brihaspati]

^^You could start with what went wrong with them!

[Sanku]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... ed/766540/

Indian envoy refers to Sonia as ‘Christian,’ reference is deleted

Just how sensitive an issue it is was revealed last month when the official representative of the UPA Government in Washington, Ambassador Meera Shankar, delivered a speech at a US university referring to Sonia Gandhi being a Christianas a testament to India’s pluralism and diversity. However, that reference was later quickly deleted.

[Klaus]

^^^ Is this going to lead to claims of 'falsification of reports' and statements of 'I was misquoted' etc. OTOH, if this incident dies a quiet death, then we can be sure that the only way for India's salvation is the 'sister' being throned, the sooner the better.

In case of Meera Shankar stating that she was misquoted, there is an attempt to divert the attention of the masses from the real issue, which is everyday politics playing its part. However, if the reference is deleted to the effect of Meera Shankar ever denying making such a statement, it only goes to show that Nai Dilli is a pyramid structure of governance. Simple piskological analysis.

Oligarchies can survive long and without fear of reprisal when they can live in disguise. The beginning of the end of an oligarchy is when it is recognized as one. 'Sister' being appointed or throned is a sure-fire way of avoiding reprisal and attempts at unmasking/identification/recognition.

[svinayak]

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ed/766540/

Fast forward to approx. 8 minutes and you will hear Indian Ambassador refer to Sonia Gandhi as Christian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBWE0Bl3-a0

Now, read the transcript on the Indian Website, item #6, sentence #6: http://www.indianembassy.org/prdetail16 ... andquot%3B

[Aditya_V]

Acharya, but we should not cast doubts on such cases, One of us BRF maulanas Jaeger I think in L&M dhaga had an issue with people with casting doubts bacause the Christians with Hindu sounding names on BRF.

[Murugan]

Has religion destabilised the subcontinent?

Dr Swami and others speak on Indian angle at India Conclave '11. there is one pakistani also who is one of the main speakers

http://conclave.intoday.in/videos/india ... /60/0.html

The question-answer session from part 5 - 7 where Dr swami fields tough questions