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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:41 
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And what makes you think that you know the absolute truth?


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:45 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
And what makes you think that you know the absolute truth?


Who said that he knows the absolute truth? Where?

What I have done is to question statements made on here as not necessarily being the absolute truth, but based on one's personal experiences, place of residence and other biases. My statements certainly have a bias, but so do those of others.

But all discussions on BRF have centered around the idea that Islam is dangerous. is that the absolute truth?


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:49 
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I think it is fair to say that we don't have sufficient statistics to make any claim about all Indian Muslims.

By the way, why were Kashmiri Pandits driven out of J&K? The majority community could have saved them.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:52 
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brihaspati wrote:
But that great peaceful interlude lent wind to the sails of those who sit in one corner of India - protected by geography and past unhesitatingly coercive rashtryia intervention - to delude themselves that what they see in their small geographical cocoon, holds for all of India. Can someone sitting in Mysore really understand what is going on in Azamgarh or Bhagalpur or Deganga? Or vice versa?

Are two distant geograhpical points in India really that close to each other in a psychological sense? Are they really closer than some NRI in USA and one of those two compared to the other? If the NRI speaking about subregions in India is the arrogance of distance how is demanding that whole of India is modeled under one's local optimistic cocoon not a case of equal if not greater arrogance?


Brihaspatiji. I beg your indulgence. You are using words like "greater arrogance". You would prefer lesser arrogance I presume. The arrogance is clear and you have brought it up yourself.

Place of residence does introduce a bias. You say so yourself. If my saying the same thing constitutes "greater arrogance" that is your viewpoint for you to hold. Just as you cannot speak for me and I cannot speak for you, neither you nor I can speak for all Hindus and accuse them of being ignorant or of being a pushover. At best that is a bias. At worst it is arrogance. The degree of arrogance, greater or lesser is up to you to decide. Either way the degree of arrogance is irrelevant.


Last edited by shiv on 20 Mar 2012 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:54 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
I think it is fair to say that we don't have sufficient statistics to make any claim about all Indian Muslims.

By the way, why were Kashmiri Pandits driven out of J&K? The majority community could have saved them.


Since this is the Indian interests thread, i want to point out that the Christianism sponsored "Dravidianism" has forced Tamilian Brahmins out of Tamil Nadu. But yes, let's talk about Islam. It was the majority "community" that drove them out.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:56 
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I said they did not do enough to save them.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:57 
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shiv wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Is the forum being filled with one-sided experiences onlee? Perhaps. It is so fortunate that the WB-BD frontier [and deeper inside] villages of one community have no internet savvy, peacefully co-existing with other communities, realizers of the danger of talking about potential dangers of Islamism.


The forum is not only being filled with one sided experiences, it is being filled predominantly by the one sided experiences of people who have the most time and resources to state opinions on the internet. Long ago I had conducted a poll of the origins of people who post on BRF. The poll showed a very definite trend about the origins and backgrounds of people who took part in the poll. as you state, place of residence does matter, be it Mysore, Bhagalpur, border districts of West Bengal, America or Europe. Could we all be honest enough to admit that place of residence introduces a bias?

Bias is a given.

What concerns me specifically is that certain types of bias have ot been given enough of an airing on BRF. The bias that islam is dangerous is well known on BRF. As long as one says that on BRF there are NO concerns expressed by anyone that there is any bias.

I now want to see the effect of posting an opposite bias. If one bias is that islam is danger, the opposite bias is that it is not a danger.

Where on BRF has anyone said that islam is not a danger? Who has said it? You are dead right that the discussions are one sided. Why not make it less one sided, since you have yourself expressed concern about one sided opinions?



I have long ago posted my experiences about Islamism. I spent all my life in desh in touch with Islamism one way or the other - and not from the safety of most of the southern peninsula - but in the most actively hostile and organized areas of GV.

I have clearly disntinguished between the common follower and the institutional form of islamism. You know very well my immense respect and regards for Muslim women and I clearly mentioned the context. I have tried to pay my debt by providing some shelter to the needy and the discarded among women from that faith too. My closest aides and right-hand men during my student politics days were composed of Sikhs and Muslims - although I still cringe in having to mention them by their birth-faiths.

If you are expecting me to say anything positive about any aspect of mullahcracy - any of Islams organizing and mobilizing institutions - you will not hear a single positive word from me, simply because each and every encounter with them I remember from the age of 7 - is negative. I have many positive encounters with the individual common follower. But every situation when it became a matter of collective choice and the institutions/mullahcracy got involved - those individuals failed to stand up to the mullahcracy and against the collective , publicly.

So in my analytical framework, there can be excellent individual Muslims, but they are never strong enough to counter the organized theological mobilization, and this weakness is not merely a matter of personal cowardice. It is deeply and intimately linked to the tehological conditioning that paralyzes them when it comes to choosing between what the mullah/"theology" says and what a non-Muslim says - over crucial aspects of concern to the non-Muslim. I have told on the forum how a slightly drunk long-time Muslim friend of my dad once blurted out at my question - that even though enslavement is unfortunate, but it is a necessary part of the treatment that the lord demanded on the resisting qaffir.

So, for me as long as mullahcracy and the institutional means of preserving the textual aspirations continue - when it becomes a matter of active resistance to jihad on the kafir - I will not expect any contribution from the excellent individuals. At best they will remain paralyzed while the jihadis manage the criminal elements and increasing proportion of vacillators on their side. The theological conditioing prevents active resistance. They can become free of that only if the mullahcracy and the institutions and the texts are deligitimized or removed from any social presence.

It is not a simple case of one good story against a bad story. The crucial paralysis or inclination to side with the mullah on core questions of concern to the non-Muslim - is the real danger, and it extends to all of the society.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 08:16 
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brihaspati wrote:
have long ago posted my experiences about Islamism. I spent all my life in desh in touch with Islamism one way or the other - and not from the safety of most of the southern peninsula - but in the most actively hostile and organized areas of GV.

I have clearly disntinguished between the common follower and the institutional form of islamism. You know very well my immense respect and regards for Muslim women and I clearly mentioned the context. I have tried to pay my debt by providing some shelter to the needy and the discarded among women from that faith too. My closest aides and right-hand men during my student politics days were composed of Sikhs and Muslims - although I still cringe in having to mention them by their birth-faiths.

If you are expecting me to say anything positive about any aspect of mullahcracy - any of Islams organizing and mobilizing institutions - you will not hear a single positive word from me, simply because each and every encounter with them I remember from the age of 7 - is negative. I have many positive encounters with the individual common follower. But every situation when it became a matter of collective choice and the institutions/mullahcracy got involved - those individuals failed to stand up to the mullahcracy and against the collective , publicly.

So in my analytical framework, there can be excellent individual Muslims, but they are never strong enough to counter the organized theological mobilization, and this weakness is not merely a matter of personal cowardice. It is deeply and intimately linked to the tehological conditioning that paralyzes them when it comes to choosing between what the mullah/"theology" says and what a non-Muslim says - over crucial aspects of concern to the non-Muslim. I have told on the forum how a slightly drunk long-time Muslim friend of my dad once blurted out at my question - that even though enslavement is unfortunate, but it is a necessary part of the treatment that the lord demanded on the resisting qaffir.

So, for me as long as mullahcracy and the institutional means of preserving the textual aspirations continue - when it becomes a matter of active resistance to jihad on the kafir - I will not expect any contribution from the excellent individuals. At best they will remain paralyzed while the jihadis manage the criminal elements and increasing proportion of vacillators on their side. The theological conditioing prevents active resistance. They can become free of that only if the mullahcracy and the institutions and the texts are deligitimized or removed from any social presence.

It is not a simple case of one good story against a bad story. The crucial paralysis or inclination to side with the mullah on core questions of concern to the non-Muslim - is the real danger, and it extends to all of the society.


Brihaspati - to me personally what you have written about Mullahs and islamism is well known. You have no idea of my experiences and i would be grateful if you would resist the temptation to reach conclusions about me as part of your flowery sentence construct which are otherwise lucid and informative.

My basic complaint is that the facts you lay down are well known on BRF

The rant that Indians do not know but they should know is also an old one on BRF - a mere repetition of what I have seen on here for over a decade.

The rant that the elite are "like this or like that" or that the pseudosecular/Congress politicians have done this or have done that is also old hat on BRF.

None of these things has made a whit of s difference in India. The forum used to be hot air when these opinions were first aired. It is now lukewarm air because it is all well known but changes nothing.

i will not even bother asking the question asked a thousand times on BRF - "What can you do about it" - because I know you can do nothing more than express your opinions and views based on your experiences. After another decade, if BRF exists there will be a new person saying the same things with the same fervor. And if anyone survives on BRF for two decades he will likely find that after 20 years nothing has changed.

in fact a lot of the things that people on BRF have warned are the "greatest danger to India" are all continuing to happen merrily. That could possibly mean one or more of a number of things. it could mean that the warnings were all correct but India has been lost without a battle. It could also mean that the warnings were all hype. In the short term we will not know.

Given that this is fundamentally a pointless hot air forum for people to express their personal biases that make no difference to ground reality in India I think it is informative, if nothing else to hear what different types of people have to say and where they are coming from.

Among Indians there is a viewpoint that there are moderate aspects to Islam and moderate Muslims. That is an assertion that is not allowed on BRF on the premise that it is wrong. Would it be arrogance to assert that it is wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 08:33 
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shiv ji,
even the "moderate" "immoderate" is an old repeat - as per forum archives, isnt it? People have quite strongly demanded that there exist "moderate" muslims.

The problem in this whole categorization of "moderate" and "extremist" is that moderation needs to be measured in the face of "violence". Moderation can only be proved in the face of extremism from the same ideology. In the past violent encounters - we have little proof of the moderates if they were present - having any active preventive role. Whole Muslim populations sat completely idle if not all participating in violent ghazyias on the non-muslim. Within the majority community however there were active factions who opposed majority violence on the minority Muslims. In contrast - no active opposition in the Muslim majority cases.

As my anecdotal experince indicates - a person could be apparently breaking sharia taboos - and thereby appear moderate - yet where it concerns violence on the kaffir he may not be inclined to oppose the sharia which fully supports such violence on the non-Muslim.

So the category of moderate or extremist you are using carries no meaning when it comes to what we are discussing - the threat of jihadi violence fueled by theological aspirations on the non-Muslim. There were extremely few known cases of Muslims actively coming down on the streets to prevent jihadi violence on non-muslims in the 40's - in the then East Bengal only Batam Sardar's example is known to me. Subsequent data on riots in post-independence India has been deliberately fudged - but my local knowledge suggests that it never really happened in any significant number in the riots in GV post-indepndence.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 08:56 
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brihaspati wrote:
shiv ji,
even the "moderate" "immoderate" is an old repeat - as per forum archives, isnt it? People hae quite stringly demanded that there exist "moderate" muslims.

The problem in this whole categorization of "moderate" and "extremist" is that moderation needs to be measured in the face of "violence". Moderation can only be proved in the face of extremism from the same ideology. In the past violent encounters - we have little proof of the moderates if they were present - having any active preventive role. Whole Muslim populations sat completely idle if not all participating in violent ghazyias on the non-muslim. Within the majority community however there were active factions who opposed majority violence on the minority Muslims. In contrast - no active opposition in the Muslim majority cases.

So the category of moderate or extremist you are using carries no meaning when it comes to what we are discussing - the threat of jihadi violence fueled by theological aspirations on the non-Muslim. There were extremely few known cases of Muslims actively coming down on the streets to prevent jihadi violence on non-muslims in the 40's - in the then East Bengal only Batam Sardar's example is known to me. Subsequent data on riots in post-independence India has been deliberately fudged - but my local knowledge suggests that it never really happened in any significant number in the riots in GV post-indepndence.


Brihaspati these are clever, complex arguments of the highly literate, meant for the equally literate. A Muslim who hums and taps his feet to a tune during a Hindu celebration is declared moderate and no one is going to listen to long winded arguments about why moderation is not moderation.

Why does this fact escape those of us who have complex enough minds to parse the minute nuances that separate real moderation from what only appears to be moderation to those whom we consider less well informed than ourselves?

I have thought about why people who try to explain the danger of islamism are unable to simplify the explanation of the danger to a few words that any person with an attention span of 30 seconds can understand. When there is no killing involved the dangers of Islamism cannot be explained in simple terms.

Technically a dedicated islamist who understands this can postpone/avoid killing and appear moderate knowing fully well that all actions will automatically be deemed moderate until the killing starts. But that is a bad ploy. Killing is too blatant and obvious and in this day and age killing non Muslim opponents invites retaliation.

In the absence of killing islamism still spreads insidiously and "under the radar". That insidious spread is by punishment of Muslims who oppose islam while welcoming others to join and forcing a conversion before marriage. Please pardon me for digressing, but such "under the radar" expansion is being done by Christianism as well with some differences.

The islamism "threat" is visible mainly because of its propensity for violence, and stopping violence is the first step. But when it comes to the "next step" of checking insidious spread, it is not Islamism alone that is doing that. Christainim, again with US aid is right in there in that game.

I had remarked earlier that Islam spread initially because of the military superiority of its early followers. Its later losses were predominantly due to military defeats. Coming to the Indian context, the US arming of the Islamists of Pakistan made Pakistan a serious military threat to India. When Islamism has a military victory, all is lost. We are back to the days of widows having to burn themselves to avoid being taken. I was astounded by what appeared to me as a gap in your analysis as you tried to dismiss the US's arming of Islamists as irrelevant. It was not.

First and foremost, Islamists cannot be allowed military victory. Next the violence must be stemmed. Third the insidious spread must be checked. One follows from the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:05 
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There is a book "Communal Riots in India:A Case study of An Indian State".

In this book, following riots in Bihar have been discussed in detail:

1. Ranchi - Hatia Riot (1967)
2. Sursand Riot (1967)
3. Jamshedpur riot (1979)
4. Biharsharif riot (1981)
5. Bhagalpur riot (1989)

I can post a few paragraphs if you guys are interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:14 
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Shiv,

ramana wrote:
X-Post..
The real issue is how the EIC period historians wrote the history of India during the 18th-19th centuries. The first three hundred years of Islamic rule are depicted in a particular narrative.

The first aspect is Gothic dark narrative of death, destruction and ruination in the early Islamic centuries. It didnt help that the Islamic hagiographers glorified and chronicled that aspect to show their belief in triumph of their religion based conquest. Most of the conquest turned out that way due to chance. It was a touch and go most of the time. Akbar became emperor due to a lucky arrow shot.

The second aspect is the inevitability of the loss of the conquered people. Narrative after narrative, historian after historian writes about how Hindus were only going to lose due to many factors: caste system, out-moded chivalry, ancient warfare techniques, quarreling leaders etc.

Yet the Rajputs had put up centuries of resistance (from Battle of Rajasthan to Rana Sanga, Rana Pratap etc.) and had transformed the Mughal empire into a collaborative rule. This is what tempered the Mughal rule and made it so glorious that it attracted all those European merchants who later became rulers and rewrote histories.

The Marathas had founded their kingdom in 1680 and in less than a century had become the dominant power in India. They ignore the fact that within fifty years of the death of Aurangazeb, the Mughal Emperor was pensioner of the Marathas.

The third aspect is geographic. One vision is that of a greater India stretching from Afghanistan to Burma from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari. The other is the lesser India shorn of all the peripheral lands and peoples.

In the end it was the lesser India that the freedom struggle agreed to.

SAARC is way to get back to greater India just as EU is way to forget the Thirty year war in Middle Europe.


The unstated thesis of all these historians is that the advent of the British had lesser impact compared to the ravages of the Islamic centuries.

Islamic centuries(1200 to 1550)= very bad
Mughal rule(1550-1700) = not so bad
British (1757-1857 & 1858-1947) = good

First the British wrote such narratives and next the Indian historians followed it. Next the spun a Marxist interpretation which is a mix of the first two themes: Gothic and inevitable defeat.

We don't know the role of Protestant triumph after emerging from the Reformation era Europe in those two centuries of rise of EIC.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:28 
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brihaspati ji,

the problem, as I understand it, is that the deniers and those who insist that any anecdotal evidence of Islamics being radical as nothing more than propaganda, have operated within a framework which makes it hard to counter their denialism. as a first priority, they carried out Partition under the "amputating the 'evil'" theory. next, they systematically erased any historic narratives of atrocities of the Islamics that were left over in India. they made sure that none of it entered the official state history textbooks. and then bestowed the power of history-making to the Marxists. with a combination of all these tools, they have formed the narrative of "moderatism", where if a Muslim resides inside the borders of India, then he/she looses any trace of Jihadi thinking. it is as if the boundary which delineates India and Pak is some grand mythical gift given to Indians, that as soon as you cross over here, the forces of history, of long term Islamic networks doing their dirty deeds, all loose their power and you enter the realm of the "moderate" muslim.

the above is the only thing which explains why LoC has become such a mythical "don't pass" line. if LoC becomes a paper-tiger, then the entire edifice, so carefully constructed, becomes obsolete. the deniers and naysayers *need* the boundary as it is, to foist their propaganda as truth. for better or worse, JLN gave them LoC, and they need to maintain it. even IG, for all her mythical Goddess Durga-like powers, was seemingly powerless when she came up against that mythical gift to Indians, LoC. if LoC and the rest of the border stops being the actual border, whether due to India's or Pak's aggression, the carefully constructed worldview of the post-1947 Indian regime risks collapse.

this is why you keep hearing the repeated calls of "moderatism". the deniers need a "moderate" construct in India vs a "radical" construct in Pakistan. they will bash the Paki for all their Jihadi attitude, but will insist with equal fervor that on this side of the mythical border, there is nothing but "moderatism".


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:34 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
There is a book "Communal Riots in India:A Case study of An Indian State".

In this book, following riots in Bihar have been discussed in detail:

1. Ranchi - Hatia Riot (1967)
2. Sursand Riot (1967)
3. Jamshedpur riot (1979)
4. Biharsharif riot (1981)
5. Bhagalpur riot (1989)

I can post a few paragraphs if you guys are interested.


Might not be a good idea to discuss Bihar riots. Each of them are controversial - and Engineer and Pandey will have field monopoly over selections of narratives. To discuss Bihar riots - we have to discuss land-ownership and the criminal-mafia-politico-landowner nexus. The Bhagalpur story is iconic, and the key was a certain mafia don who drew in the theology angle to cover for his own agenda. But both sides were violent - even though only the pond incident is highlighted. This is a turf I know well - and Islamism started there violently, was all about land and women, lost out later with the Mughal expansion, and curious realignments happened within the now partially islamized landed gentry [many of whom were perhaps blood kins of the Hindu gentry]. The silk industry was ana added complication - and coal mafia also sometimes tried to enter the zone.

The riots are a process of taking back land that went over with conversion - a rather harsh and generations later retribution, which I will not judge but am inlcined to say was upon wrong targets. A lot of insitutions have been destroyed - but many rebuilt. However it has left a mark on the territorial contiguity of the institutional network. There are big holes punched now in the spatial domain in that network.

Riots have been tried to be discussed on the forum - and for obvious reasons closed down.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:40 
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devesh ji, I will have a post for your attention in gdf strat scenario.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:40 
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shiv wrote:

Brihaspati these are clever, complex arguments of the highly literate, meant for the equally literate. A Muslim who hums and taps his feet to a tune during a Hindu celebration is declared moderate and no one is going to listen to long winded arguments about why moderation is not moderation.

Why does this fact escape those of us who have complex enough minds to parse the minute nuances that separate real moderation from what only appears to be moderation to those whom we consider less well informed than ourselves?

I have thought about why people who try to explain the danger of islamism are unable to simplify the explanation of the danger to a few words that any person with an attention span of 30 seconds can understand. When there is no killing involved the dangers of Islamism cannot be explained in simple terms.

Technically a dedicated islamist who understands this can postpone/avoid killing and appear moderate knowing fully well that all actions will automatically be deemed moderate until the killing starts. But that is a bad ploy. Killing is too blatant and obvious and in this day and age killing non Muslim opponents invites retaliation.

In the absence of killing islamism still spreads insidiously and "under the radar". That insidious spread is by punishment of Muslims who oppose islam while welcoming others to join and forcing a conversion before marriage. Please pardon me for digressing, but such "under the radar" expansion is being done by Christianism as well with some differences.

The islamism "threat" is visible mainly because of its propensity for violence, and stopping violence is the first step. But when it comes to the "next step" of checking insidious spread, it is not Islamism alone that is doing that. Christainim, again with US aid is right in there in that game.

I had remarked earlier that Islam spread initially because of the military superiority of its early followers. Its later losses were predominantly due to military defeats. Coming to the Indian context, the US arming of the Islamists of Pakistan made Pakistan a serious military threat to India. When Islamism has a military victory, all is lost. We are back to the days of widows having to burn themselves to avoid being taken. I was astounded by what appeared to me as a gap in your analysis as you tried to dismiss the US's arming of Islamists as irrelevant. It was not.

First and foremost, Islamists cannot be allowed military victory. Next the violence must be stemmed. Third the insidious spread must be checked. One follows from the other.



what makes you say that "Killing" is not happening? what happened in Kashmir? was that not killing on a mass scale? and you talk of retaliation. what retaliation? the Hindu has been revoked of that "retaliation". the Hindu, in modern India, has been denuded of the chance to seek vengeance for crimes committed upon his body. what is happening in WB, if not killing and violence? what about Assam? what about Kerala? there have been numerous cases of acts of violence against Hindus. this was happening in kerala as far back as 2001. check this link: http://marad-hindu-massacre.blogspot.com/

it is astonishing to me that even after living through an Islamist sponsored genocide (Kashmiri Hindus) and the majority of Muslims, who are nothing but moderate and enlightened, of course, having remained silent bystanders to that genocide, we still insist of pretensions of "majority are moderate". what good is "moderation", other than wiping my a**, if it sits idly and silently witnesses the genocide of lakhs? I personally don't care for this moderation. you can construct a little temple and worship this mythical "moderation" all you like. I'm not interested, sorry. I think I value my physical safety a bit too much, to have faith in this special kind of "moderation".

and this military defeats business is also interesting. what if some areas of India never heaped such "military defeats" on the sections of Muslim population which exist there? does it mean that modern India has to inflict "military defeat" on these sections of muslim population? Kerala comes to mind. the Vijayanagara Empire never made any sustained foray into this region, on the scale which would have decimated the Samuthiris and started a new era. come to think of it, even the Marathas never really ventured into Kerala that much. does that mean that this lack of "military defeat" on Kerala Muslims is the reason for increased radicalism of Muslims in that part? so, what is you solution? should modern India use the Indian Army to inflict a "military defeat", whatever that means.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:44 
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brihaspati wrote:
devesh ji, I will have a post for your attention in gdf strat scenario.


eagerly awaiting it, saar!


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 09:51 
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abhishek_sharma ji,
try to post anything that you can. I, personally, welcome the gyan. post it and hope for the best, that it doesn't get deleted! and we have enough experienced people to *steer* discussions in the right path, if they feel that certain directions don't need to be further explored on an open forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 12:01 
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devesh-ji; I would advise that you listen to Shiv-ji, very very carefully, and read between the lines as well.

Humble suggestion.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 15:57 
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"Islam in India"
From a sociology textbook currently in use
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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 19:58 
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Kya Bakwas log hai - Future leadership of India indeed

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis ... from-india

Rahul Gandhi takes a break from India


Rahul Gandhi | Photo: Reuters

f a little bird which nests in the dovecotes of the stately buildings atop Raisina Hill is correct, Rahul Gandhi decided to take yet another break from India after the just-concluded assembly polls,travelling Business Class early morning of March 9 on a Thai Airways flight out of dusty Delhi into exciting Bangkok. The bird warbled that the Congress Party's Mr Always Correct spent a delightful week at pricey locations in Southeast Asia before getting back to Delhi on March 15 to resume helping Mamma run the party and the country

After absorbing the results of the 5 state assembly elections on March 6, Rahul Gandhi must have been a trifle disconsolate. After all,he spent months advertising the intense affection he feels for India's underprivileged. Despite his exertions,Congress candidates did poorly,including in Punjab,where even his worst critics did not expect Rahul's party to lose, while in Uttarakhand,it was a state BJP leader known for being generous both in the distribution of laddoos to his own party leaders and to rival Congress candidates of at least six BJP contestants who ensured that the Congress Party formed the government in Dehra Dun. Hopefully,memory of the laddoos consumed by them will stay the hand of the BJP leadership against this highly spirited saffronite from the hills of Uttarakhand

If those monitoring movements and safety of the man who was begged by Manmohan Singh to join the Union Cabinet are accurate,Rahul's hair colour became visibly lighter when he finally reached his holiday destination. Of course,the Youth Leader had shed his khadi uniform,wearing instead a faded pair of denims and a sports shirt. North Block avians say that the reason for the colour change is that while in India, Rahul's cranial hair is "blackened out of a tube", so that the 43-year old appears more a native of the subcontinent than a Mediterranean. However,such a conclusion may simply be conjecture, as may be reports that an individual who was "visibly close to Rahul" was waiting for him in Bangkok, with whom he participated in "a host of activities that were enjoyable despite being strenous"

The action sports indulged in by the youth leader and his holiday companion were not revealed by the little bird,who is wary of the many air guns in the vicinity of the Raisina Hill structures,all trained to shoot down gossips such as himself on sight. Following a pattern mandatory in external travels of the Maino-Gandhi's, no one from the media was anywhere near the comfortable locations where Rahul was getting over the disappointment of the just-concluded polls,not that Indian or international journalists have shown any interest in the overseas prereginations of the Maino branch of the Nehru family. And when they do report, taking thewir cue from a Swamy tweet followed up by an AICC spokesperson's clarification,the media mix up New York with London while mentioning the location where another member of the family recently travelled on a corporate jet,this time for reasons other than a holiday. Of course,the corporate jet was supposedly travelling to that destination to ferry a mid-level company official,who spent the flight in a seat close to a toilet

As the Mother of Transparency in India,who waved a magic wand and gave the people the Right to Information Act,hopefully Sonia Gandhi will initiate a Court Diary that tells her adoring people exactly when,where and how the country's post-royalty royalty travels.Till then,we will have to depend on the birds for information about the House of Maino-Gandhi


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 20:16 
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Islamic writers and apologists use articles such as Subramanya's to show that Islam is indeed the religion of peace, and that it's spread was entirely peaceful. Ignoring it's history in West and Central Asia, and of course North India. In South India, glossing over Vijayanagar and the sack of Madurai( where the loot taken back to Delhi by the Khiljis was greater than anything Mahmud plundered), among other major depredations.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 20:18 
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^^^ Such brainwashing is at the same level as Holocaust denial


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 21:09 
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Varoon Shekhar wrote:
Islamic writers and apologists use articles such as Subramanya's to show that Islam is indeed the religion of peace, and that it's spread was entirely peaceful. Ignoring it's history in West and Central Asia, and of course North India. In South India, glossing over Vijayanagar and the sack of Madurai( where the loot taken back to Delhi by the Khiljis was greater than anything Mahmud plundered), among other major depredations.


The interesting part is the the way the man just sweeps away the occupation of Sindh like someone going to the loo. And at the bottom (but spilling on to the next page that I did not scan) he contradicts himself. After starting the page saying that islam did not spread by the sword, the bottom of the page says "The uslim rulers in India apart from spreading islam had other aims also: etc i.e. convert, become a dhimmi or fight. On the next page he says how becoming a dhimmi was not possible so basically and he say "Acceptance of Islam or death" were the only choices available

How the heck can this man declare that it was all spread by peace?

Here is Wiki on Momammad bin Qasim in Sindh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_b ... nt_of_Jats
Quote:
After battles all fighting men were executed and their wives and children enslaved in considerable numbers and the usual fifth of the booty and slaves were sent to Hajjaj.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 21:38 
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Even Crusader accounts say the same thing about 500 years later (~1200AD). And by Islamist accounts of aftermath of conquest.

Line up the prisoners and behead them sequentially. Women and children sold of as slaves or appropriated.

He is drunk on the syncretic koolaid of psec-intellectuals.

So when he lies he thinks he is not.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 22:13 
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I was 10yrs or so (5th grade) when one of my classmates told me that his father (an IA man) told him of the atrocities and that all this glory of mughal-vughal was all wrong. It was quite a disconnect, and at that age, from what I had heard/read. It was a disconnect inspite of all the Rana Pratap stories I had heard and seen enacted. I just brushed him aside and did not sit with him in the next class. It was much later that I learnt that he/his father was right, but before that I was taught more of the sanitised history in higher classes. This same disconnect is hard for many others.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012 23:14 
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viv wrote:
I was 10yrs or so (5th grade) when one of my classmates told me that his father (an IA man) told him of the atrocities and that all this glory of mughal-vughal was all wrong. It was quite a disconnect, and at that age, from what I had heard/read. It was a disconnect inspite of all the Rana Pratap stories I had heard and seen enacted. I just brushed him aside and did not sit with him in the next class. It was much later that I learnt that he/his father was right, but before that I was taught more of the sanitised history in higher classes. This same disconnect is hard for many others.

Very true.I was taught more about Mughals then Mauryas or Guptas.There was a time when I used to think that Muslim rule in India was all good except some 'exceptions' like Zaziya.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012 00:18 
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It is not so much specifically of Mughal or Sultanat or other rule but of knowing what has transpired. The fear maybe that it will inflame passions, and might have been the fear post partition, but if SA can have truth and reconciliation, I'm sure we can handle events from long past. Similarly we need to know and understand the impact and repercussions of Portugese and English rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012 00:29 
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viv wrote:
It is not so much specifically of Mughal or Sultanat or other rule but of knowing what has transpired. The fear maybe that it will inflame passions, and might have been the fear post partition, but if SA can have truth and reconciliation, I'm sure we can handle events from long past. Similarly we need to know and understand the impact and repercussions of Portugese and English rule.

Yes,we need to know and come to peace with our past before our nation can march forward to achieve what we have long lost.Our future cannot be based on a manipulated past.We need to know the truth about what mistakes were committed in past which enabled the british to rape our country.Because History always repeats itself for those who do not learn from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012 01:16 
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Finally the Government is moving after Supreme Court gave a nod on river interlinking.
7 mega water routes identified for private investment

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 025778.ece
Quote:
Seeking to tap the huge potential of the Inland Waterways Transport (IWT), the Prime Minister's Office has identified seven mega projects and corridors all over the country — entailing an outlay of Rs. 2,100 crore — for private sector investment in the 12 Plan. This would throw open new opportunities in transportation of bulk cargo, including imported and domestic coal, and food grains through the inland waterway system.

At a recent meeting held in the office of Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister, Pulok Chatterjee, it was decided that major thrust should be given to attract private investment in these seven corridors. The major beneficiaries would be NTPC's upcoming power plants at Kahalgaon and Barh in Bihar and Bongaigaon in Assam.

Corridors for transportation of food grains of the Food Corporation of India (FCI) from North India/Kolkata to Tripura via Ashuganj and within the State of Assam; containers between Pandu (Guwahati) and Kolkata; shipment of pipes of ONGC from Kolkata to the north east; ferrying of fertilizers on National Waterway (NW-1) between Allahabad/Varanasi and Kolkata; perishable cargo (produced in Meghalaya and West Garo Hills) from South bank of Brahmaputra to Dhubri on North bank; North/South bank connectivity through roll on-roll off ferries are the seven projects identified for private sector investment.

The transportation of coal through NW-1 is for NTPC's super critical power plant at Barh in Bihar where it is setting up a 3300 MW power plant in two stages — 3x660 MW and 2x660 MW. The annual coal requirement for the Barh plant would be around 16 million tonnes per annum. The coal linkage is from Amrapali block of North Karanpura coal fields, which is to be transported through the rail route. This coal can be transported through NW-1 through IWT. It is estimated that this facility will require an investment of around Rs. 1,200 crore.

Another investment of around Rs. 550 crore has been identified for the IWT terminal at Jogighopa with a coal handling facility and for transportation of food grains from FCI by IWT mode in Kolkata-Tripura (through Ashuganj) route. At present, FCI food grains are moving by rail and road to the NE States and the same could be transported effectively by IWT. Food grains could also be moved from Kolkata to Tripura by IWT mode by transhipment at Ashuganj in Bangladesh in view of circuitous road and rail connectivity to Tripura.

Similarly, a Rs.120-crore investment project has been identified for transportation of containers by IWT mode on the Kolkata-Pandu-Kolkata and Kolkata-Patna-Kolkata routes. The PMO has also pitched for transportation of pipes and other cargo of Oil and Natural Gas Corporation and Oil India Ltd from Kolkata to Dibrugarh, Jorhat, Karimganj, Agartala via Ashuganj. Another corridor identified is for transportation of fertilizers by IWT mode in Varanasi-Kolkata.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012 06:21 
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Views from the Right

Quote:
Rights and Wrongs

The RSS weekly, Organiser, has taken a strong stand on the resolution against Sri Lanka being moved at the United Nations Human Rights Council, saying India should not support this US-sponsored resolution.

The lead editorial contends that the United States, whose track record is “pathetic” when it comes to human rights violations, now wants to intervene because it will open up the possibility of a similar role in India, which faces internal problems in Kashmir and the Northeast, from Naxalites and Islamic extremists, and has had to deal with campaigns led by “so-called human rights activists”.

“India should take an unequivocal stand against the resolution being backed by the US to condemn Sri Lanka. If India baulks today and adopts a neutral position, it would find itself in the dock one day. India, by its geopolitical position, must take a robust stand against the West interfering in issues not concerning them directly,” says the Organiser. “There is no case for the US or any of the European nations to dictate to a democratically elected government or try to humiliate it in a world forum that belongs as much to us as it does to them,” it says. The RSS stand, significantly, is at variance with that of the BJP, which has supported the UNHRC resolution.

“Two years after the civil war in Sri Lanka ended with the decimation of the terrorist outfit LTTE, the United States of America is poking around the scab to reopen healing wounds. What else could be the intention of the resolution being moved by it at the UNHR Council session?” asks the Organiser.

It says that the LTTE was no hapless, unarmed group of peaceful activists, but well-trained cadres, armed to the teeth with the latest machine guns, rocket launchers and tanks. “The last few weeks of war that are under scrutiny now, witnessed a pitched battle in which both sides killed and got killed unrestrained. The number of child-soldiers Prabhakaran recruited and trained has not been documented. Boys and girls were picked at an unsuspecting age, fed on a liberal dose of LTTE literature enumerating the torture and humiliation of the Tamils by the Lankans and were prepared to fight on the command of well-structured LTTE ‘army’. Several thousands of Tamils were killed by LTTE cadres for defying the leadership. But the US or any other nation did not raise the issue of war crimes then,” says the Organiser.

IT TAKES A VILLAGE

AFTER a considerable gap, the Organiser carries an article lauding the efforts of former BJP ideologue and RSS pracharak K.N. Govindacharya demanding that 7 per cent of the Union budget be allotted to gram panchayats for development. Govindacharya, who has been in self-imposed exile from the BJP for the last 12 years, had recently staged a three-day dharna at Jantar Mantar. He has argued that since 70 per cent of the population lives in villages, the demand for granting 7 per cent of the total budget for their development is justified. “In the year 2011-2012, the Union budget was of Rs 12 lakh crore and there are 2.5 lakh gram panchayats in the country. By this calculation, every village will get Rs 30 lakh that will increase year by year. According to the people engaged in rural development activities, this financial support is sufficient to rejuvenate the villages” Govindacharya told the Organiser.

DISASTER ON WHEELS

THE Panchjanya editorial makes a scathing comment on the railway budget and its steep fare hikes, moved by then railway minister Dinesh Trivedi and the politics behind Mukul Roy replacing him. Instead of discussing the impact of the budget and the fare hikes, the UPA leadership had to firefight the political crisis, following TMC chief Mamata Banerjee’s diktat that the anti-aam admi minister must go, says the Panchjanya. “The crisis showed once again the disunity within the UPA and the helplessness of the prime minister, who has had to comply with the wishes of alliance partners. How can such a weak prime minister and this government leading the country work for the good of the people?” says the Panchjanya. It adds Mamata Banerjee herself never did much as railway minister, being more engaged with West Bengal politics.

The Panchjanya maintains that Indian Railways has always been the biggest victim of politics, with ministers using it to fulfil their regional aspirations and politics. It says the prime minister has again chosen to remain silent, giving into coalition compulsions, letting the railways become a pawn in the hands of a single Mamata Banerjee. A few days ago, Dinesh Trivedi had said that if real change is to brought in the railways, it should be separated from politics and run in a professional manner. The attempt to do this probably cost Trivedi his job, says the Panchjanya.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012 06:54 
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viv wrote:
I'm sure we can handle events from long past.

+1 to that.

You see the attitude that has been taken from the time of my own school education right up to this day is that somehow Hindus can handle their past and you can push through reconciliation and reforms, but Muslims might ask for another Pakistan or do another Direct Action day if they are touched. The attitudes have not been helped by Pakistan sitting on the side, looking into India and trying to encourage direct action days all the time. It's not just Pakistan who sit and think they are a separate electorate within India. Indians too keep worrying about what that separate electorate might say.

Made for each other.. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2012 09:29 
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Quote:
Education minister gives Rs 3 lakh each to private madrassas
TNN | Mar 21, 2012, 09.42AM IST

GUWAHATI: To upgrade the khariji (private) madrassas in different parts of the Assam, state education minister Himanta Biswa Sarma distributed Rs 3 lakh each to 640 different khariji (private) madrassas at a ceremonial distribution ceremony held at the Guwahati Municipal Corporation ( GMC) auditorium on Tuesday.

The state government will provide financial assistance to around 700 khariji madrassas in the state under chief minister's special scheme.

Each madrassas are supposed to get 5 lakhs in total, out of which, Rs 3 lakhs each has already been distributed
to about 21 madrassas in six districts, Jorhat, Karbi Anglong, Morigaon, Kamrup, Sonitpur and Darrang.

Himanta said, "Education has been given the highest priority in every religion, but mere religious education is not enough. Besides this, the students have to keep up with the changing times. If we can introduce vocational courses in madrassas, it would really benefit the students."

He added, "This is the first time that the khariji (private) madrassas are being provided government assistance. It is sad to know that most of the private madrassas are running purely on charity money. The government has formed a core committee to upgrade these madrassas."

Forest minister Rockybul Hussain, who was also present, said, "It is important to introduce modern subjects like English and Computer Science in the madrassas."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... ttarget=no


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2012 09:50 
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Surasena wrote:
Quote:
Education minister gives Rs 3 lakh each to private madrassas
TNN | Mar 21, 2012, 09.42AM IST

GUWAHATI: To upgrade the khariji (private) madrassas in different parts of the Assam, state education minister Himanta Biswa Sarma distributed Rs 3 lakh each to 640 different khariji (private) madrassas at a ceremonial distribution ceremony held at the Guwahati Municipal Corporation ( GMC) auditorium on Tuesday.

The state government will provide financial assistance to around 700 khariji madrassas in the state under chief minister's special scheme.

Each madrassas are supposed to get 5 lakhs in total, out of which, Rs 3 lakhs each has already been distributed
to about 21 madrassas in six districts, Jorhat, Karbi Anglong, Morigaon, Kamrup, Sonitpur and Darrang.

Himanta said, "Education has been given the highest priority in every religion, but mere religious education is not enough. Besides this, the students have to keep up with the changing times. If we can introduce vocational courses in madrassas, it would really benefit the students."

He added, "This is the first time that the khariji (private) madrassas are being provided government assistance. It is sad to know that most of the private madrassas are running purely on charity money. The government has formed a core committee to upgrade these madrassas."

Forest minister Rockybul Hussain, who was also present, said, "It is important to introduce modern subjects like English and Computer Science in the madrassas."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... ttarget=no


Can these Govt's give similair aid to Vedic Patsalas also. OOps that would be communal.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2012 09:50 
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[Double post]


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2012 12:43 
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http://the-diplomat.com/2012/03/23/indi ... dium=email

India’s Military Inferiority Complex

March 23, 2012
By Trefor Moss

Indian officials are preoccupied by China’s growing military power. They would do better to fix their own incoherent defense establishment.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2012 22:38 
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neel wrote:
A study of the sources of the skewed sex ratio in India (among other countries). Highlights include that only 11% of the "missing" women were victims of sex-selective abortion. More (14%) are attributable to excess female deaths due to injuries (i.e. violence against women). Even more still (42%) are attributable to higher female:male ratios of the fatality rates of chronic diseases among Indians relative to Western populations. Also, 23% are due to higher female:male ratios of the fatality rates for communicable diseases. A further 8% are due to maternal mortality and 2% due to poor nutrition.

So a total of 65% of the "missing" women are due to higher female:male ratios of fatality rates for diseases that effect both men and women in India as compared to the West. Is this due to better medical treatment given to men than to women? If so, this is a 6x more pressing problem than sex-selective abortion. It is even 4x more pressing than violence against women. Also, if so, it may explain why the skew in the sex ratio declined so much (~27% per the latest round of NSSO), since there was so much room for improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2012 04:03 
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Very important video. Interview of Gen V K Singh. A candid interview.



Must watch and be studied.. Please read between the lines what Gen. V K Singh says.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2012 07:11 
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X-post
Image
source: http://www.tag-pictures.com/wp-content/ ... scraps.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Interests
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2012 08:04 
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Atri, Please tell us what you think of the interview. Its a open forum and not a guided democracy.


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