Managing Pakistan's failure

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ShauryaT
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote: Post colonial India in Westphalian terms is a State of Nations(people with different language ties). In Europe, both West and East such nations each formed a State. despite such examples, India formed a State of many nations.
When a set of people do not have a unifying, liberal and tolerant message that is evolved and mature, then one starts looking for differentiating factors such as language to unify an even smaller unit around which a common state can be formed. One cannot jump to the conclusion, without first establishing, is language the only primary factor for a state? Clearly now, for Europe itself has examples that will negate this principle. There is only so much from the ideas of westphalian that can be transposed on to Indian and IMO, the ideas of what makes a nation-state is a fluid one. When one transposes a principle of organization that evolves within a certain context in a certain time period for certain people with a given ideology to another, such as India, it will not cleanly fit.

India was always a civilization with a cultural union. This cultural union has a tolerant core that allows multiple streams, within certain ideological bounds to co-exist. There are limits to the ideas of territorial sovereignty as expounded by the treaty of westphalia. The primacy of states as expounded by westphalia also gave rise to the enmity of states as seen through the wars in Europe and by them in rest of the world. Westphalia never included the ideas of "Humanity" or "Democracy" which were later evolutions, something that Europe did recognize as missing ideas in their polity, which they have tried to incorporate post world war II. Again, this is their evolution not to be mixed with Democracy now being a core idea around which nation states need to be organized, even if the west deems to be as such and looks at states not fitting this criteria as somewhat less optimal, mature.
If we look at Terrorist State of Pakistan, the many nations that were forced together in 1947 want to pull away. Bangla Desh was the first successful one. Early on Kalat was forcedly incorporated into Pakistan and became Baluchistan. Kashmir was also unsuccessfully tried to be incorporated.
Now we see the many nations of Pakistan trying to pull away. The reason is Islam was not a unifying basis for Pakistan, just as Christianity is not for Europe.

Its the Indian civilization that is a unifying basis for India that allows the sustaining of the state of many nations.
EU is another artificial Pakistan and will unravel.

Does this make sense?
It does. Have always believed, the day you have a condition where a Greek is willing to die for an Irish man, is the day EU will have a safe union till then all bets are off. The current union pre-supposes “good” times only but when there is pressure and risks the bolts come off quite easily.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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ShauryaT wrote:When a set of people do not have a unifying, liberal and tolerant message that is evolved and mature, then one starts looking for differentiating factors such as language to unify an even smaller unit around which a common state can be formed. One cannot jump to the conclusion, without first establishing, is language the only primary factor for a state? Clearly now, for Europe itself has examples that will negate this principle. There is only so much from the ideas of westphalian that can be transposed on to Indian and IMO, the ideas of what makes a nation-state is a fluid one. When one transposes a principle of organization that evolves within a certain context in a certain time period for certain people with a given ideology to another, such as India, it will not cleanly fit.
Having got a nation for themselves on a silver platter due to the munificence of the British and by riding piggyback on the Indian independence movement, without having really struggled for it, Pakistan could never formulate independent State policies or even appreciate the sense of freedom. Since “national identity” is derived from such things as culture, heritage, history, experiences etc. and since the artificial land of Pakistan had none of these in originality as it inherited all these from Bharat, the country had nothing to speak of for its 'distinguishing' identity. Unfortunately for a country which wanted to invent a new identity, names of rivers and cities were derived from Sanskrit, a language despised in Pakistan because of its association with Hinduism. Since, most Pakistanis identified themselves in the negative as “not being Indians”, it gave them a lot of heartburn to digest the fact of an ancestry and heritage in common with the enemy Indians.

Nothing exemplifies this more than the speech given by Pakistan’s first Ambassador to the US, Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani, when he presented his credentials to the US President. Said he, “We are, Mr. President, a new country in name, but old in history, tradition and culture. Ours is an ancient race, akin to your own. Our forefathers, like yours, came from the steppes of Central Asia and the Caucasian mountains. In one of the great movements, which from time to time, changed the history of mankind, our people moved South and East and set up an empire in the fabled Indies. After several centuries, renowned throughout the world for their glory and culture, the sceptre passed, less than a century ago, from our hands, into those of the British. Now again, our people stand free and independent in the territories where, once more, our national flag flies high”.

Modern political commentators are unanimous that ‘nationalism’ is composed of two components: emotional and political. Politically, it is the culmination of a historical process that established the nationality. In India, the whole country was caught in the frenzy of independence and hundreds and thousands of leaders, common men and women sacrificed themselves to gain independence. While the concept of ‘Bharat’ had been well entrenched for thousands of years, it was truly this political struggle that unified the modern nation.

This struggle was absent in Pakistan as its leaders simply indulged in political machinations and even in pandering their British Masters, to secure a land for themselves. It is simply not enough that there is a historical process to establish nationality, but there should also be a well grounded theory and idealism behind such a struggle. It came naturally to the Indian movement of independence while for the Pakistanis it was mostly fabricated. Nationalism lso needs political parties to weld the historical process and the idealism into something that is achievable. The Indian National Congress did that effectively for India as a mass based organization in the far nooks and corners of the country. In the case of Pakistan, the Muslim League was elitist in nature and significantly lacked support in the areas that eventually became parts of Pakistan.

In the Indian Constituent Assembly of 1946, leaders like Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, Suhrawardy and Ispahani were elected from those areas which remained with India after Partition. Thus, the top leaders who dominated Pakistan after its creation, had no constituency within the artificial construct of Pakistan ! In fact, the Muslim League, even in a united India, was not the sole representative of the Muslims though it appropriated to itself such a role with the tacit connivance of the British. (For example, in the 1937 elections the Muslim League had won only 105 seats out of the 499 that was reserved for the Muslims. The ML, at the most, enjoyed support from certain pockets of the United Provinces.) In this process, the Muslim League implied that the Indian National Congress was the party solely of the Hindus, which was contradictory to the truth.

Various organs of the Pakistani government therefore developed and propagated the myth of Pakistanis being of Central Asian or Middle Eastern or Turkish origin, depending upon circumstances or imagination, in order to avoid having anything to do with their “Indianness”. A Caucasian decent theory was also useful in depicting the Pakistanis as having the same ancestors as the Americans, as Ispahani did when he presented the Credentials. In 1964, Pakistan created a grouping called Regional Cooperation for Development (RCD), with Iran and Turkey as its members, to get out of its claustrophobia with the Indian sub-continent. Pakistan believed that it had a common heritage of history and culture with Iran and Turkey and the grouping would therefore help enhance the socio-economic ties with those countries. An RCD cultural Institute was also setup in Islamabad to further these aims. RCD lasted until 1979 but was singularly unsuccessful.

When the Central Asian Republic (CAR) countries gained independence from the USSR in c. 1991, Pakistan not only helped them get membership in the OIC but also into the ECO which was a follow-on to the RCD. The Pakistanis have also been driven to seek their identity elsewhere, like for example with West Asia. A Pakistani analyst explained the reason why his country sought identity elsewhere. He said that India was the hub and the rest of the countries were the spokes in the South Asian region as they are all bound to it historically, culturally and geographically. He reasoned that Pakistan was the only country that resisted Indian hegemony over itself and over the region as the other countries in South Asia were too small. In order to escape this hub-and-spoke model, Pakistan sought the ‘look west’ model for its identity. Thus, Pakistan was torn between its natural but much despised Indian identity and the unnatural but desired West Asian or Central Asian identities. All these have led to most Pakistanis not feeling very proud of or confident about the destiny of their nation. The resulting “crisis of identity” has continued to plague the Nation ever since and has led to identifying Pakistan as “anything that is not Indian”. Recently, the noted Pakistani economist, Shahid Javed Burki, described the folly of using religion to have founded Pakistan on the ‘Two-Nation Theory’. He says that the way forward today, after the folly of basing Pakistan’s nationhood on religion, is to simply treat the country de facto as a ‘piece of real estate’ and get on with it. But, the single-minded obsession with India does not allow the Pakistanis to come out of that frame.

Is Pakistan for all Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent or only in those pockets which eventually formed both West and East Pakistan with whomsoever migrated at that time from India ? If it is for all Muslims, how come India has as big, if not a bigger, Muslim population today as Pakistan ? If it was for a more favourable distribution of resources among the Muslims, why is it that after sixty two years India has a much better socio-economic status than Pakistan ? If it was to free the Muslims from Hindu domination, why did Pakistan stop migration of Indian Muslims since 1951 ? Why did a part of the Pakistani Muslims decide to secede in 1971 ? If pride in ethnicity and language could lead to secession of East Pakistan within a quarter century of creation of Pakistan and Islam could not hold the country together, where was the need for a separate state for Muslims and bisection of India ? Why is Pakistan unwilling to take back those Bihari Muslim Pakistanis from the then East Pakistan who swear by Pakistan and yet remain stranded in refugee camps in Bangladesh ? Why is there so much of sectarian violence among Shi’as, Sunnis, Berelvis (who call themselves as Ahl-e-Sunnats) and Ahmedis in an Islamic Pakistan ? Why are the sub-nationalists like Balochis, Sindhis and Pushtuns against the federal setup and the Punjab ? If Pakistan is to be an enlightened secular state why separate from a secular India ? Why has Pakistan such poor relationship with its Islamic neighbours such as Afghanistan and Iran ? Why are the Taliban fighting Pakistani Army who after all also swear by Iman-Taqwa-Jihad fi Sabilillah ? Why should the Pakistani Government fight the Taliban when an overwhelming number of Pakistanis support the Talibani cause ? Why does the Islamic Republic of Pakistan help China put down its Muslim minorities in Xinjiang (Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, XUAR) while it supports Muslim separatism in Kashmir, Chechenya, Mindano, South Thailand, the Arakan etc ? Why does the Islamic Republic of Pakistan have such tortuous relationships with fellow Islamic neighbours such as Afghanistan and Iran ? These are profound questions, the answers for which will shake the very foundations of this Islamic state.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

SSridhar, I am thinking we need to develop annual presentations on TSP to spread the knowledge. Sort of status reports from pak watch.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by pgbhat »

SS Sir, is Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani related to Husain Haqqani's wife?
ramana
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

pgbhat wrote:SS Sir, is Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani related to Husain Haqqani's wife?

A little wiki look tells you she is the grand daughter of MAH Ispahani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farahnaz_Ispahani
Farahnaz Ispahani (Urdu: فرح ناز اصفهانی) was serving as a member of the National Assembly of Pakistan until her membership got suspended by the supreme court and as a spokesperson for the President of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari. She is married to Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistan Ambassador to the United States, and is the granddaughter of Pakistan's first ambassador to the United States, Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani.[1] Her uncle, Zia Ispahani has also served as a politician and former ambassador for Pakistan. Ispahani was born in Karachi, and grew up in Karachi, Dhaka and London. She graduated from Wellesley College in Massachusetts, majoring in political science.
Incidentally the Haqqanis live in a hosue presented to them by him.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husain_Haqqani
Then in March 2000, he married to Farahnaz Ispahani, a former producer at CNN and MSNBC and current member of the Pakistani parliament, and the granddaughter of Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani, Pakistan's first ambassador to Washington. Their official residence in Washington was purchased and donated by her grandfather.[4]
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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pgbhat wrote:SS Sir, is Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani related to Husain Haqqani's wife?
Yes, as ramana has also said. As it happened with so many of those elite families, some moved to Pakistan and some remained behind.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Some psyops from me @pakchaighar
................................................

I am saying this as a matter of fact. If Pakistan wants to save itself, it needs to separate itself from Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and FATA (except may be Chitral, Kohistan, Dir and Swat).

Do a deep analysis and you will see that most of the problems of Pakistan have in fact their origin in Pakistan trying to subdue the region and keep it as part of Pakistan. In fact, even the wars with India, were in fact an effort to divert the attention of Pakhtuns towards other foes.

The day Pakjab/Pakistan puts up a huge border between itself and the Pushtuns, it would see that there is no more need to champion Islamism. The local militant outfits in Punjab can all be subdued easily. But right now they are kept and tolerated to provide ideological continuity with the Pushtuns. The Pushtuns themselves were viciously radicalized by Zia, to bury the idea of an independent Pushtunistan!

The whole concept of "strategic depth" is a misnomer. It is in fact a policy designed to interfere in Pushtun affairs in Pakistan and Afghanistan, to subdue the idea of Pushtunistan. The strategic thing to do right now would be to look for "geographic shallowness" and thus "ideological stability"!

Only the purging of Pushtunistan would save Pakistan!

What all the analysts in Pakistan do is wrong analysis. They talk about Taliban and all that, but they are all looking in the wrong place for their solutions.

If Pakistan had got rid of Pushtunistan years ago, Pakistan would still have Bangladesh as a part of it!

All these stupid shows of Pakistani military men trying to look all brave and strong is really laughable. It doesn't impress the Indians. But the small print is that they try to impress the Pushtuns. And in trying to impress the Pushtuns they go on various unsustainable and self-damaging adventures.

Bangladesh was part of one such adventure!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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Published on Jun 15, 2012
By Ashraf Rashid Siddiqi
Diminishing Punjab: The International News (Pak)

Code: Select all

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9-114528-Diminishing-Punjab
To gain advantage, the so-called politicians are now intent on further mutilating the province by carving out Saraiki and Bahawalpur provinces. Administrative reconfiguration is different from political division; the former can unite the people but the latter has invariably resulted in acrimony and human suffering. The only gainers will be a few politicians and bureaucrats who will occupy the posts of governors, chief ministers, ministers, chief secretaries, inspectors general of police, etc. A diminished Punjab would in fact mean a diminished Pakistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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RajeshA wrote:Published on Jun 15, 2012
By Ashraf Rashid Siddiqi
Diminishing Punjab: The International News (Pak)
Administrative reconfiguration is different from political division; the former can unite the people but the latter has invariably resulted in acrimony and human suffering. . . . A diminished Punjab would in fact mean a diminished Pakistan.
The bolded part has been the bane of Pakistan, be they the Punjabi Army, the Punjabi politicians, the Punjabi Islamists,the Punjabi bureaucrats or the Punjabi Taliban. So long as the Punjabis think that any diminution of their stranglehold on Pakistan would lead to disintegration of Pakistan, that alone would lead to that fate. This kind of thinking is very reminiscent of 'the defence of East Pakistan lies in the defence of West Pakistan'. We know where it led to. But, of course, we Indians cannot simply be complacent that Pakistan will collapse due to such internal contradictions and the arrogance of the Punjabis. We have to do our part of the duty which is to hasten the process of disintegration in every possible way. But, the current Indian approach seems to throw only lifelines at Pakistan to survive to hit us another day.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote: Its the Indian civilization that is a unifying basis for India that allows the sustaining of the state of many nations.

EU is another artificial Pakistan and will unravel.

Does this make sense?
It makes perfect sense
rajanb
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by rajanb »

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote: Its the Indian civilization that is a unifying basis for India that allows the sustaining of the state of many nations.

EU is another artificial Pakistan and will unravel.

Does this make sense?
It makes perfect sense
+1 That is what I told my stock broker: Watch the EU economy, that has a bearing on our sensex and my shares :((
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Posted by Skanda in 'Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis' Thread

Published on Jan 12, 2011
Sons sell off mother for Rs30,000
"My husband belongs to the Shiekh clan and my sons had threatened to kill me if I remarried. That was why they sold me," says Bashiraan Bibi.

HAFIZABAD: Two men sold their mother for Rs30,000 to a man who kept her tied up and raped her for three days. The accused have been arrested by police officials.

Mohalla Saghar Hafizabad resident Bashiraan Bibi said that she had nine sons and daughters and her husband had died four years ago.

Bashiraan said that her older sons Ansar and Ghazanfar used to abuse her frequently. A few days ago, the men sold her to village Mehdiabad resident Abbas for Rs30,000. “Abbas tied me up for three days and tortured me. He raped me several times,” she told the police. Bashiraan said that she escaped Abbas’s custody after four days and reached the residence of one of her relatives.

Bashiraan then married Hafiz Bashir in the court of civil judge Iftikharul Nabi.

“My husband belongs to the Shiekh clan and my sons had threatened to kill me if I remarried. That was why they sold me,” she said. Bashiraan has sought police protection from her sons and said that she wanted police officials to arrest them. On her application, City Police have registered cases against Ansar, Ghazanfar and Abbas. City Police Station House Officer (SHO) Syed Airf Hussain Shah said that the police had arrested Ansar and Ghazanfar and were still investigating the whereabouts of Abbas.
------------------

Just in case some were wondering whether Pakeezah Project has any chances! If mothers can be on sale, then daughters and sisters would most definitely be on sale as well!

Indians can help in the liberation of the oppressed women of Pakistan!
Prem
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:[Bashiraan said that her older sons Ansar and Ghazanfar used to abuse her frequently. A few days ago, the men sold her to village Mehdiabad resident Abbas for Rs30,000. “Abbas tied me up for three days and tortured me. He raped me several times,” she told the police. Bashiraan said that she escaped Abbas’s custody after four days and reached the residence of one of her relatives.
Just in case some were wondering whether Pakeezah Project has any chances! If mothers can be on sale, then daughters and sisters would most definitely be on sale as well!ndians can help in the liberation of the oppressed women of Pakistan!
Frankly , Paki Putts ere smart. The sold the old woman for 30K when the market rate in Pakistan for old mothers is half of this .
Next stop; Sale of Grandma by Paki
ShauryaT
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

Partition woes continue
Pakistan will likely be consumed by the antics of extremist Islamists. The trouble is India will have to pick up the pieces.

What India did not reckon with at Partition was the incapacity of the Pakistani state and people to firm up their nationhood and a national identity, even after 65 years of desperately trying. This either means that Islam as defining characteristic of a country in a polyglot, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural setting was a mistake because there are as many Islams centred around the Quran, as there are varieties of Hindu beliefs, and no one brand of Islam can claim supremacy and, hence, religion is not the glue many people had thought it would be in cementing a nation from a collection of disparate peoples. Worse, the infirmity of the state has compounded the problem with a visionless political leadership — Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Liaqat Ali Khan gone early in the game — that never rose above the opportunistic.

India is stuck with having to tackle the infection of certain Indian Muslims by the Wahabbi-Salafi thought at the ideological end and, at the physical end, a large and growing Muslim fraction of its population with the unending seepage of Bangladeshi Muslims into lower Assam — that K P S Gill, the saviour of Punjab and former director-general police, Assam, had warned some two decades back would result in the colonisation of a belt around Bangladesh.

This is a damned difficult task for India, a country barely able to keep its head above water, to manage. Official rhetoric requires it to live up to its secular pretensions and, as a matter of practical politics, the system is wedded to vote-banks. Can the Congress, for instance, win in Assam without the votes of an ever-growing bloc of illegal Muslim immigrants beholden to it for legalising their presence? If the Congress cannot politically afford other than to encourage such covert Muslim infiltration in the Northeast, it cannot come down hard for the same reasons on the growing number of Wahabbi-Salafists in the country either, who are responsible for terrorism, communalisation, and for fanning the recent panic among Northeasterners living in the southern states, once considered oases of social harmony.

The unfinished business of Partition is not Kashmir, as Pakistan claims, but the fact that Pakistan cannot find social peace and Bangladesh cannot keep its people within its borders.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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Published on Aug 30, 2012
By Rob Crilly
Christians demand separate province in Pakistan to protect them from persecution: Telegraph UK

Pakistan's embattled Christian minority have launched a campaign for a separate province to protect them from persecution after a wave of brutal attacks and arrests for blasphemy.
A 14-year-old girl is being held in prison after being accused of burning a copy of the Koran and last week the body of an 11-year-old Christian boy was found in Punjab bearing torture marks.

The demand for a separate province, although unlikely to succeed, is a further blow to the ideal of Pakistan's founding father, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, of a secular country that would be home to India's Muslims but where all would be free to worship their own religion.

The move is the brainchild of Younus Masih Bhatti, president of the Pakistan United Christian Welfare Association, who wants a government commission on new provinces to consider the plight of Christians.

"So, keeping in view the two million Christians in the country and a sense of insecurity among them, there is a requirement for a separate province for them so that they can enjoy equal rights like the majority," he said.


On Thursday, human rights campaigners renewed calls for Rimsha Masih, the girl accused of blasphemy, to be released after a bail hearing was adjourned until Saturday leaving her imprisoned in a high-security jail alongside murderers and terrorists.

Her parents say Rimsha is only 11 and was born with Down's syndrome.

However, a medical report which said Rimsha's mental age was below her physical age of 14 and that she should be treated as a minor was challenged in court by a lawyer for the man accusing her of burning the Koran.

Rao Abdur Raheem said: "If you burn me, I will forgive you, but if you burn our Koran, then I will fight a legal battle to seek maximum punishment for anyone doing this act." As a result the judge has asked for more time to consider the matter.

In the meantime, Rimsha's neighbours in a Christian enclave outside Islamabad have fled their homes amid fears of revenge attacks.

Some have tried to set up home in a park in Islamabad rather than return.

Raza Rumi, of the Jinnah Institute, a public policy centre based in Islamabad, said that although Islamist political parties had been repeatedly rejected in elections, Pakistan's leaders were reluctant to speak out against abuses or push for reform for fear of being called a traitor.

"If you are known as a traitor or anti-Islam, these non-state actors will come and kill you," he said. "Nobody wants to take that risk." In 2010, The Daily Telegraph revealed that a Christian mother had been sentenced to death for blasphemy, a case that led to a campaign for reform of the archaic, British-era laws.

Christians, who make up about four percent of Pakistan's population of 180 million, have been particularly concerned about the law, saying it used to wage personal vendettas or settle property disputes.

In 2009, at least seven Christians were burned to death in an attack in Punjab province after reports of the desecration of the Koran.

However, attempts at reform stalled after the murder of two prominent campaigners last year, including Salman Taseer, governor of Punjab.

Last week, an 11-year-old Christian boy was found dead in a town in Punjab. Police said his lips and nose had been sliced off, his stomach removed and there was evidence that his legs had been mutilated too.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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X-Post...
pentaiah wrote:Lecture Explores Challenges of U.S./Pakistan Relations
By Michael Coleman / Journal Washington Bureau on Sun, Feb 19, 2012 Tweet


WASHINGTON – Few countries are as strategically important to the United States as Pakistan, and few countries pose as many challenges.
At a lecture in Albuquerque next week, Timothy Hoyt, a professor at the U.S. Naval War College and expert on U.S-Pakistani relations, will discuss the troubled relationship between the two shaky allies and explore possible directions the alliance could take in the future.
The lecture, part of the Albuquerque International Association’s continuing series on countries that pose unique challenges to U.S. interests, is Feb. 26 at the UNM Continuing Education Center. The event includes a question-and-answer session.

In a Journal interview, Hoyt said Pakistan and the United States have a critical but flawed relationship based on mutual interests and mutual distrust.
“From the Pakistani perspective, we make a lot of promises we don’t keep, and from the U.S. perspective, Pakistan makes a lot of commitments that they don’t live up to,” Hoyt said. “This distrust builds up, and then we find we need each other again.”
The U.S. considers Pakistan a key partner in combating terrorist groups in the Middle East, and Pakistan relies on the U.S. for military and economic aid.
“We’re worried about Pakistan’s long-term stability, because they have a significant and growing nuclear arsenal, and we’re worried nuclear weapons could fall into the hands of these militant groups,” Hoyt said.
The two countries’ relationship – off and on for decades – is near an all-time low, Hoyt said.
“The relationship between the U.S. and Pakistan has been plummeting,” Hoyt said “People on both sides are trying hard to keep that relationship open this time.”
The relationship was severely strained by the Obama administration’s decision to target and kill Osama bin Laden in Pakistan in May 2011.
“We killed Public Enemy No. 1 in Pakistan without telling the Pakistanis we were coming, and they didn’t detect us, which made their military look incompetent,” Hoyt said. “The bin Laden raid was a huge episode in the deterioration of relations.”

{ Tell them Seals are coming, OBL would have vacuum sealed in PAF air force base :rotfl: :rotfl: pentaiah}

However, he said leaders in both countries are intent in trying to repair the alliance.
“If the relationship is in a nosedive, both sides are trying to level the plane out,” Hoyt said. “Both sides are aware of the history of the relationship. What we’ve seen so far is this could collapse, but both sides don’t want it to get that bad, because the odds are that at some point in the future we’re going to need one another again.
“Pakistan is a country with a population bigger than Russia and a nuclear arsenal that soon will be larger than Britain’s,” Hoyt added. “That makes it an important country and one we need to have a relationship with, even if it’s a difficult one.”
:((
In his lecture “Four Futures for a Troubled Relationship,” Hoyt will address four different scenarios for U.S.-Pakistani relations.

Would like to see his lecture on the Four Futures of TSP-US relations.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RamaY »

What about the Hindu minorities? They too should have a separate province. After all Hindus and Muslims cannot live together.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by SSridhar »

I would like to see one province for the non-Muslim minorities like the Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Budhhists and the Parsis. There can be another for Muslim minorities, Shi'a and the Ahmedis. But, the question really is why can't these provinces secede using Jinnah's own logic ?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

What Happens When the Lights Go Out in Karachi?
The problems of rising extremism, violence in Karachi, and power shortages will be shaped by one of the biggest challenges of all: a population of 180 million people that is expected to grow to 335 million by 2050. Each of these problems compounded by the others creates a snowball effect that could prove to be more than the state -- and its allies and partners -- can handle. It would be worth asking the foreign minister about that, too.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

ShauryaT wrote:
The problems of rising extremism, violence in Karachi, and power shortages will be shaped by one of the biggest challenges of all: a population of 180 million people that is expected to grow to 335 million by 2050. Each of these problems compounded by the others creates a snowball effect that could prove to be more than the state -- and its allies and partners -- can handle. It would be worth asking the foreign minister about that, too.
Mashaallah, 335 Million mark will be much sooner than 2050. 380 Millons by 2035 and 600 Millions Poaqsmurffs running around Lahore in 2050. Pakistan must survive till it reaches 700 Million mark with steady increase of Pyaj , Mirch and Kabuli Channa in diet . Indians will be happy to supply tons of Raddishes free of charge and little bit of water for istinija.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Old Op-ed by Dr Bhasyam Kasthuri from 2001:

http://www.ipcs.org/article/pakistan/mo ... n-407.html
Monitoring Pakistan
Dr. Bhashyam Kasturi


Some years ago a former defence official went to Pakistan . At Islamabad he was taken to the Regional Centre for Strategic in Islamabad by his Pakistani hosts. Here he was shown around the place and saw rows of newspaper clippings. The visiting Indian was told these were devoted exclusively to India and that every single article by an Indian defence and strategic analyst of significance was available here.

The former defence official still recalls with surprise that this institute was solely devoted to studying India . :( It was clear that Pakistan , which we consider as enemy number one, knows, for more about India than otherwise thought.

In fact, he posits that it would be difficult to find an institute of this type in India . Besides a handful of experts within the system, there are very few persons with knowledge of Pakistan . Should this not alert our decision makers to ponder over the existing system of threat analysis and introduce some form of coordination existing assets? :roll:

Those dealing with Pakistan in the intelligence, the MEA and military must share their information. The same could be assessed by the NSCS and sent to all concerned action. Alternatively, the officers concerned could meet once a month in the NSCS under an official directly charged with Pakistan .


In addition, think and universities specialising in affairs need an incentive to study Pakistan , particularly its internal dynamics. The main issue is being able to understand the Pak mind. Setting up an institute to study Pakistan is an idea worth putting into practice, like the Institute of Chinese Studies .

Kargil provides the best illustration of how the Pak military could be autonomous decision makers and undertake an audacious operation against India . The information available to the decision makers prior to the Kargil intrusion makes it clear, (as could not from the report the KRC) that it was in and bits pieces. This required seasoned assessment to discern the larger picture.

For instance, RAW reported that Pakistan was purchasing 500 pairs of snow shoes in Europe , But in the KRC Report no mention of what was done with this report. Was there internal debate on what this meant. And was it sent to the military for further analysis. If it was, what was their reaction?

All these questions could have been considered if a coordination group on Pakistan was there within the NSCS, with over arching powers to summon intelligence reports relating to the country, security for analysis. If there is a problem with input sharing at a formal level, as is currently prevailing, then an informal access channel could be set up. The level at which responsibility should be fixed can be decided by the PM and EAM.


At the nation celebrates and remembers the anniversary of the Kargil war, it is imperative that government thinks through this problem and swings into action.
I guess BRF threads are the closest to all points analysis of TSP from Indian point of view.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from TIRP Thread!
ramana wrote:Rangudu, What do you think the US can do to retrieve the situation? Assuming the end goal is to prevent the reemergence of a terrorist state sheltered in Afghanistan?
Am asking for we need to develop solutions that can be socialized. Right now the US thinks its only way out is to accommodate the TSP in setting up a new political order in Afghanistan.
1) In order to hit somebody, one first needs to them to stand still and not move, i.e. to become a better target. That is what the Blackwill Plan was. Give the Taliban a part of Afghanistan in the Southeast and South, and when Taliban assumes control, to continue to hit them.

2) Secondly the issue is one of channelizing the money flow in Afghanistan. If the Pakis have the money to pay the Afghan Taliban, then Pakistanis would win. So USA needs to squeeze Pakistan economically so much that the only money left in the play is the money Americans are willing to give to those willing to do their bidding. That means finish off the opium economy and finish off Pakistani economy completely.

3) To stop the terrorist be the bigger terrorist. Americans need to start sending out assassins to take down the various terrorist riff-raff and ISI guys.

4) If one can't stop a country going to the dogs, the only thing left to do is to see that there are more dogs fighting over the same bones. Don't allow any concentration of firepower in the hands of a single tanzeem or gang. Let a thousand gangs bloom!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RoyG »

RajeshA wrote:Continuing from TIRP Thread!
ramana wrote:Rangudu, What do you think the US can do to retrieve the situation? Assuming the end goal is to prevent the reemergence of a terrorist state sheltered in Afghanistan?
Am asking for we need to develop solutions that can be socialized. Right now the US thinks its only way out is to accommodate the TSP in setting up a new political order in Afghanistan.
1) In order to hit somebody, one first needs to them to stand still and not move, i.e. to become a better target. That is what the Blackwill Plan was. Give the Taliban a part of Afghanistan in the Southeast and South, and when Taliban assumes control, to continue to hit them.

2) Secondly the issue is one of channelizing the money flow in Afghanistan. If the Pakis have the money to pay the Afghan Taliban, then Pakistanis would win. So USA needs to squeeze Pakistan economically so much that the only money left in the play is the money Americans are willing to give to those willing to do their bidding. That means finish off the opium economy and finish off Pakistani economy completely.

3) To stop the terrorist be the bigger terrorist. Americans need to start sending out assassins to take down the various terrorist riff-raff and ISI guys.

4) If one can't stop a country going to the dogs, the only thing left to do is to see that there are more dogs fighting over the same bones. Don't allow any concentration of firepower in the hands of a single tanzeem or gang. Let a thousand gangs bloom!
The problem is Islam is the binding force of all of them coupled with drug money. Inevitably, whether civil war ensues, Pakistan will undergo the purification process which doesn't bode well for us. Elements in the PA will have no choice but to escalate tensions with India and within India to divert all the attention away from themselves. They will have to coordinate with the Chinese.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Before West Pakistan's atrocities on East Pakistanis, people in Indian sub-continent also thought Islam is a binding force.
Islam is the cover for the dominant group to hide while enforcing their writ.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:Before West Pakistan's atrocities on East Pakistanis, people in Indian sub-continent also thought Islam is a binding force.
Islam is the cover for the dominant group to hide while enforcing their writ.
Met a guy from Peshawar few hours ago. He introduced himself as Afghan but after few minutes he opened up and was confortable enough to talk frankly. Apparently, mango people of KP refuse to identify themeselves as Paki. The guy resented Pakjabi and Jinnah as per him was on Brutish payroll.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Bji & jhujar,

Its a good thing that Pakis identify with Turks* and Turkey. It will lead to more and more purification and in the final analysis collapse.

* Try to find out what the Turks brought to Islam.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Samudragupta »

While discussing the failure of Pakistan and any integration of the parts in the Indian Union one point needs to be consistently remembered that the Indian Political class does not want to add more muslims into its already rapidly radicalising and to some extent loosing control over its own muslim population....the population of the current geography of Pakistan needs a new religion to be integrated in India...Since India in its current form is not in a position to alter this change it has to depend on the external factors for proper time to enforce this change....And until that time its is in India's interest to increase the instability of the geography ranging from severe ethinic conflicts to destroying the technological and economical base of the geography....
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RoyG »

^^Zoroastrianism and maybe Buddhism could soften them up a bit.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Samudragupta »

Both the above ideology has been eradicated from their home base...its impossible for these two ideologies to replace a dominant and militant ideology of Islam from Pakistan....And considering the harmful influence these two ideologies had in creating the base for the expansion of the religion of Muhammad..its is better that these two ideologies has been eradicated....Since India as a nation does not have the capability to alter this status quo it is important for India to precipitate conflicts between the Islam and the dominant Judeo-Christian worlds ...Until and unless this conflict reach a critical stage it is important to use the National power deterrence to stop the instability in the west t reach India...But it is debatable how much west will be ready to confront the Islam...the rise of China and continued focus in the Pacific will reduce the importance of the ME for West... In as much the conflict btwn the West and Islam can only be renewed when Europe starts to arm itself and start enforcing its millitarism in its neighbourhood....the conflict of Arab Spring and complete blackout of the Americans in the conflict in Libya and Syria means that it may be in US interest to forgo the defence of the Europe to Europeans themselves....
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by sanjaykumar »

Fracking will lead to a collapse of Islam.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Samudragupta »

sanjaykumar wrote:Fracking will lead to a collapse of Islam.
Fracking will lead to end of West supported Wahabi Islam...it will survive the post oil world....
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Here a display of desperation in Pakistan. I think this post at chaighar deserved a x-post.

Code: Select all

http://pakteahouse.net/2012/10/09/the-wrap-of-khan/comment-page-1/#comment-106481
Dronacharya, the Paki wrote:Rex : Can you develop this on a Corporate M&A template. Wouldnt it be right.. if Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma., become parts of China. (ROC). It will ensure law and order.. societal peace.. quick progress.. and the advantages of ECONOMY OF SCALE would accrue ! School Edn / Healthcare / Roads / Electricity / Potable water / Drainage etc.. (basic municipal services i.e.) would improve. The common Pakistani.. Bangladeshi.. Burmese {?}.. will have a better life.
Afterall the poor man looks for 2 square meals a day. Dont you think the MERGER would do good to all concerned.. And why fear the Chinese. TAO`ISM and CONFUCIUnism are extremely deep wells of thought.. and they have a fantastic civilisation… character.. and work culture.

I think A FORMAL MERGER WITH CHINA is the answer. This may sound weird.. but i say this after great thought and deliberation… I look at it from a civilisational viewpoint.. I dont see any loss.. giving-away in this deal. I see benefits of economy of scale.. and improved law and order (law enforcement) and work culture ! Chinese will come.. eliminate 2-3 thousand obstacles.. and then the wheels will move.. and infact rock !!!

Your thoughts Rex.. on M&A … of NATIONS to achieve economy of scale.. and improved security ! Afterall separating and coming together is the History of Man!
:rotfl:

He also mistakes ROC (Republic of China, Taiwan) for their tarrel than mountain fliend!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:http://www.criticalthreats.org/pakistan ... er-25-2012
An interesting map of the protests in Pakiland. The hotspots are an indication of the Islamist strength and organized strength to boot. They are along the Afghan border and along the Indian border - and more concentrated in the north proximal to the Pindi heartland. That will be the base for the next Paki jihad.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

X-Post from elsewhere.

The article has psy-ops but also a few nuggets:

Is Pakistan's Paranoia Pushing it Into a Nuclear War with India?

The psy-ops is the causal language as if Nuke war is everyday occurrence!

The real story is there is a massive tug of war between US and TSP about the TSP nukes. And India is being dragged as a bystander.
Is Pakistan's Paranoia Pushing it Into a Nuclear War with India?
By Felix Imonti | Sun, 28 October 2012 00:00 | 4

The possibility of a nuclear war between Pakistan and India grows every day. If the Pakistanis do not bring under control the terrorist groups in the country and resolve the conflicts with India, it is not a matter of if it will happen, but when.

There have been few achievements to celebrate in the sixty-five year history of Pakistan and that has made the success of the nuclear program central to the national identity. This is especially true for the military that receives a quarter of the budget and is the only strong national institution.

Development of the weapons started in January of 1972 by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, when he was the Minister for Fuel, Power and Natural Resources. The decision to go nuclear came after a disastrous military defeat in 1971 by India. Bangladesh with Indian assistance separated from Pakistan.

Without its eastern territory, Pakistan was facing an enemy six times larger. The only way to deal with such a threat was to acquire an equalizer. Pakistani Prime Minister Muhammad Ali Bogra stated in 1954, "When there is more equality of military strength, then I am sure that there will be a greater chance of settlement." His words expressed what is an ongoing national preoccupation with military parity with the far more powerful India. :mrgreen:

India joined the nuclear club in 1974. Pakistan followed in 1998 and became the only Moslem nuclear power with what became known as the “Islamic Bomb;” and that made it a leader in the Islamic world community. :?: :?: :?:
[Ignores role of PRC and US turning the other eye to the PRC proliferation}

The Pakistan high command believed that the U.S. does not want a Moslem country to possess nuclear weapons and will at some time in the future attempt to seize or destroy its arsenal. Since September of 2001, much of the American military action has been directed towards Moslem states. As the sole nuclear Islamic country, that convinces the Pakistanis that they too will be targeted.

Washington worries that Pakistan with a number of terrorist organizations supported by the Inter-Service Intelligence is the one place where terrorists would be the most likely to acquire a nuclear weapon or nuclear materials. A high ranking official of the Inter Service Intelligence told the Atlantic for a December 2011 article on the Pakistani nuclear weapons program, “You must trust us that we have maximum and impenetrable security. No one with ill intent can get near our strategic assets.”

Since April 2012, The Strategic Plans Division that is charged with protecting the nuclear arsenal of an estimated ninety to one hundred and ten strategic warheads has been adding an additional eight thousand specially trained troops to protect the storage facilities from an American attempt to seize or destroy the nuclear weapons. A retired high level Pakistani officer confided that he and many of his colleagues believe that the U.S. will move against nuclear facilities shortly after the American combat role ends in Afghanistan. He and his colleagues expect the United States to abandon Pakistan as it did in 1989 when the Soviet Union was driven out of Afghanistan.

The raid by U.S. special operation forces into Abbottabad in May of 2011 to kill Osama Bin Laden has been taken as a warning signal by chief of army staff General Ashfaq Kayani what to expect. Senator John Kerry was sent to Pakistan shortly after the raid to explain the American position. He did not reduce the general’s anxieties when he declined to provide a written guarantee that the U.S. would not attack the Pakistani nuclear storage facilities. :((

The positioning in the region of units under the United States Joint Special Operations Command is a factor that is feeding the Pakistani paranoia. The task of JOSC is to keep out of the hands of terrorists nuclear materials that were abandoned when the Soviet Union left the Central Asian states. Included in what is seen as a high risk region is Pakistan that is on the list of failed or failing states.

Satellite photos and other sources estimate that there are fifteen locations where weapons or nuclear materials are likely to be kept. Six of these have been attacked by terrorists, although no weapons or materials have been taken.

The generals are probably telling the truth when they say that the weapons are safe in the military facilities. What they are not saying is that their effort to evade detection by the Americans has created other serious flaws in the security.

The assurance that the weapons are safe from attackers collapses once a warhead leave the guarded facilities. Weapons are being moved frequently in lightly defended ordinary vehicles along public highways to prevent Indian and American spy satellites or snooping drones from tracking the movements. There is little doubt that various extremist organizations have penetrated the military and are aware of the schedules and routes, but ISI acts as if it has enough control over the terrorists to prevent an ambush.


The larger strategic nuclear warheads are often transported disassembled. Recently, though, Pakistan has adopted tactical nuclear weapons with smaller warheads that are easier to moved assembled.

In April, ISI released photos of the Nasr, a new sixty kilometer range missile that appears to be capable of delivering a nuclear warhead. Because of the short range of the weapon, it will have to be positioned close to the frontier. That places the missile in a more vulnerable position for a terrorist group to seize while being transported along public highways or in isolated locations.

{Nasr is a Kalidasa weapon and as useless as the short range weapons developed in the Cold War}

At the time that Pakistan acquired nuclear weapons, military strategists rejected tactical nuclear weapons because they would provoke the Indians to escalate to strategic weapons in response. :?: :?: That opinion has changed. The addition of a fourth nuclear reactor at Khushab that produces plutonium to be used in tactical weapons says that the inventory will be expanded.

{What does he mean by this? Is he fearing that India will inorduce TN weapons as response? Need to think this one. Maybe the Wastern critique of Indian tests was to have zero-sum game between TSP and India?}

Estimates of the amount of enriched uranium and plutonium in their inventory in 2011 places the potential number of weapons that can be produced at between 160 and 240. They are developing as well two cruise missiles, two short range shoot and scoot type missiles and two ballistic missiles that will all require different types of warheads and different amounts of materials. They have the fourth largest and fastest growing inventory of warheads of the nine nuclear classified countries. What has never been made clear is when they will feel that they have enough warheads to give them a sense of security. :rotfl:

{They will stop only whne the universe acknowledges them as the sole Muslim super power and all the Kafirs and Nazerenes submit along with the Klingons around Uranus!}[/i


The military consumes so much of the national budget that the country has been forced to curtail other developments. No other source of revenue is available that will enable the Pakistanis to compete with the Indian military that has a budget three times greater than theirs and a growing diversified economy to support its expansion. :(( :((

The high command has concluded that the only equalizer for the weaker of the competitors is the tactical nuclear weapon. What makes this a very high risk strategy is the Pakistani first-strike policy.

India nearly retaliated against Pakistan after the 2008 Mumbai attack. That was before Pakistan had begun deploying tactical nuclear weapons. India would have been able to use its superior forces to crush Pakistani defenses.

Should there be another deadly attack by a Pakistan based terrorist organization, especially if it involves a stolen nuclear warhead, :rotfl: the Indians will not hesitate to retaliate. This time, the Indian army will encounter nuclear weapons in the field. Then, Delhi that has no tactical nuclear weapons will have to decide if a strategic response is to be used. The survival of South Asia and far beyond will be depending on that decision. :rotfl:

By. Felix Imonti


I think this guy has some background with these RATs.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

First posted by chetak in "Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012" Thread

Published on July 6, 2010
By Michael Hughes Image
Balkanizing Pakistan: A Collective National Security Strategy: Huffington Post

Breaking Pakistan to Fix It
The argument for Balkanizing Pakistan or, more specifically, fragmenting the Islamic Republic so it's easier to police and economically develop, has been on the table since Pakistan's birth in 1947 when the country was spit out of a British laboratory. And lately, the concept is looking more appealing by the day, because as a result of flawed boundaries combined with the nexus between military rule and Islamic extremism, Pakistan now finds itself on a rapid descent toward certain collapse and the country's leaders stubbornly refuse to do the things required to change course. But before allowing Pakistan to commit state suicide, self-disintegrate and further destabilize the region, the international community can beat them to the punch and deconstruct the country less violently.

To quell any doubts about Pakistan's seemingly uncontrollable spiral into darkness, just recently, Foreign Policy Magazine ranked Pakistan as the tenth most failed state on earth and it would seem its leaders are hell bent on securing the number one slot - an honor it can add to their already dubious distinction as the world's largest incubator of jihadist extremism. Afghanistan will never see peace or prosperity with a neighbor like Pakistan and the U.S. will always be threatened by terrorist plots spawned in Pakistan's lawless regions - like the most recent Times Square bombing.

The most popular approach to fragmentation is to break off and allow Afghanistan to absorb Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), which would unite the Pashtun tribes. In addition, the provinces of Balochistan and Sindh would become independent sovereign states, leaving Punjab as a standalone entity.

Balkanization is based on the premise that the weak central government in Islamabad is incapable of governing Pakistan's frontiers, which have become the number one source of regional instability. The governing Punjabi elite have neglected the other three major ethnic groups - the Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Baluchis, primarily because a majority of Pakistan's budget is spent on the military rather than economic development, schooling or infrastructure. Only 2% of Pakistan's GDP, for example, is spent on education despite the fact Pakistan's literacy rate stands at 57%.

Minority groups have also been underrepresented in institutions such as Pakistan's military - which is the country's most powerful entity. Punjabis who represent 40% of the population constitute 90% of the armed forces. Pakistan's own history provides a prime case study of what happens when an ethnic group can no longer tolerate political and economic disregard. After a quarter century of strife the Bengalis rebelled, seceded and founded Bangladesh in 1971.

If the Balkanization solution is ever put in motion, accusations will surely fly that it's yet another example of U.S. imperialism and neoconservatism run amok. However, this would be a diplomatic and multilateral effort, plus, it is more about reversing the iniquities of British colonialism than it is building some new world order.

Inherent Instability
Pakistan's problems began when the British drew its boundaries haphazardly, which was primarily a product of incompetence and haste than maniacal design. According to an article in the New York Times last year, British colonial officer, Sir Cyril Radcliffe was given six weeks to carve a Muslim-majority state from British India although he had never even been there before. Radcliffe's private secretary was quoted as saying that Sir Cyril "was a bit flummoxed by the whole thing. It was a rather impossible assignment, really. To partition that subcontinent in six weeks was absurd." It would be a comical anecdote except for the fact that hundreds of thousands of people died in the ethnic cleansing that followed as a direct result of British carelessness.

Pakistan's border with Afghanistan - the poorly-marked Durand Line - had been drawn in 1893, also by the British, but it was never meant to be a long-term legally-binding boundary. The faux demarcation split the Pashtuns in half. By reinstating the original natural boundaries, Pakistan's western provinces would be returned to Afghanistan and the Pashtun tribes would be reunited. Such a move would also remove a strategic advantage for the Afghan Taliban, who can easily blend in amongst fellow Pashtuns on the Pakistani side of the border today.

The British did not only gift Pakistan with lethal boundaries, according to renowned Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid, Pakistan inherited a "security state" from British rule, described by scholars as "the viceregal tradition" or "a permanent state of martial law". Intellectual Christopher Hitchens asserted Pakistan has been a fiefdom of the military for most of its short existence. As was once said of Prussia: Pakistan is not a country that has an army, but an army that has a country. Hitchens also said the country was doomed to be a dysfunctional military theocracy from day one - beginning with the very name of the country itself:

But then, there is a certain hypocrisy inscribed in the very origins and nature of "Pakistan". The name is no more than an acronym, confected in the 1930s at Cambridge University by a NW Muslim propagandist named Chaudhri Rahmat Ali. It stands for Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, and Indus-Sind, plus the suffix "-stan," meaning "land." In the Urdu tongue, the resulting word means "Land of the Pure." The country is a cobbling together of regional, religious, and ethnic nationalisms, and its founding, in 1947, resulted in Pakistan's becoming, along with Israel, one of the two "faith-based" states to emerge from the partitionist policy of a dying British colonialism. Far from being a "Land of the Pure," Pakistan is one of the clearest demonstrations of the futility of defining a nation by religion, and one of the textbook failures of a state and a society.
Pakistan deteriorated throughout the decades because of its focus on building the military and developing Islamic extremist groups to use as weapons in their eternal obsessive struggle against India. It's true the U.S. helped Pakistan build these groups since the beginning of the Cold War, but America learned on 9/11 they had created a Frankenstein monster that now needed to be slain.


Many analysts have suggested India is less of a national security threat to Pakistan than its homegrown terrorist groups, many of which have openly declared their mission to topple the state, which would allow jihadists to secure nuclear materials. Yet, based on its strategic decision to foster extremism and its recent public support for Taliban rule in Afghanistan, it appears the biggest existential threat to Pakistan is its own political and military leaders.

The Last Straw
With that being said, Balkanization does seem like an extreme step at first blush, and perhaps Pakistan should be given another chance. Yet, after considering Pakistan's historic and current relationship with Al Qaeda - it becomes much easier to justify.

Since the war began in 2001 the U.S. has asked Pakistan to root out extremists from sanctuaries in a Rhode Island-sized area called North Waziristan, chief among them being the lethal Haqqani Network. However, Pakistan's army chief General Ashfaq Kayani asserted his forces were too bogged down fighting the Pakistani Taliban elsewhere in places like South Waziristan, Orakzai Agency and various districts across the NWFP.

I contacted an Afghan intelligence analyst about this and he assessed General Kayani's claim with one single word: rubbish. The Pakistan army consists of 500,000 active duty troops and another 500,000 on reserve. If Pakistan truly wanted to capture the Haqqani Network they would be able to drag them out of their caves by their beards within a few days.

In a movement that should have floored U.S. policymakers, Kayani was brazen enough to try and inveigle Afghanistan to strike a power-sharing arrangement with the Haqqanis. And Kayani, apparently the spokesperson for the Haqqani group, said they'd be willing to split from and denounce Al Qaeda, which is President Obama's primary rationale for the war. However, there is a higher probability of General Kayani converting to Hinduism than there is of the Haqqani Network ever being decoupled from Al Qaeda.

According to the Long War Journal, Siraj Haqqani, their leader, sits on Al Qaeda's decision-making body. Haqqani's friendship with Osama bin Laden dates back to the war against the Soviets in the 1980s and it was Haqqani that ensured safe passage into Pakistan for many Al Qaeda figures after the collapse of the Taliban in 2001. An Institute for the Study of War analysis concluded that Haqqani was "irreconcilable" and negotiations with him would actually strengthen Al Qaeda and would undermine the raison d'etre for U.S. involvement in Afghanistan over the past decade.

In other words, the Haqqani Network is Al Qaeda.

Pakistan has had a close relationship with the Haqqanis for over 30 years, who are still seen as a crucial anti-Indian asset. So, for nine years the Pakistanis protected the Haqqanis and claimed ignorance as to the whereabouts of Mullah Omar, Osama bin Laden and the Quetta Shura. Nine years, nearly $300 billion dollars and 1900 dead coalition soldiers later, the U.S. has officially verified that the entire war effort has been focused on the wrong side of the mountains.

A stable Afghanistan is in Pakistan's best interests, but this message has been preached time and again with little to no results, and the U.S. has waited long enough for Pakistan's leaders to uproot the extremists that orchestrated 9/11. But now, it appears as if the international community will have to do it for them.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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First posted by Rony in "Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012" Thread

Published on November 12, 2012
By Stanley Weiss Image
Founding Chairman, Business Executives for National Security
Impatient for Pashtunistan: Huffington Post

WASHINGTON: On November 12, 1893 -- 119 years ago today -- Afghanistan's Amir Rahman Khan and Britain's Foreign Secretary for India, Sir Mortimer Durand, drew a line across the roof of the world. Running roughly 1,600 miles through the rugged peaks of Afghanistan and present-day Pakistan, the Durand Line was intended to mark "the limit of their respective spheres of influence, so that for the future there may be no difference of opinion on the subject." (Should "any difference of detail" arise, the agreement stated, they were to be "settled in a friendly spirit.")

It is uncertain whether the "Iron Amir" fully understood the English document to which he ostensibly affixed his signature, or whether he acquiesced only because the agreement's final article increased by a half the Amir's existing British retainer of 1.2 million rupees. What is certain is that no subsequent Afghan government officially recognized the agreement, and that for the millions of Pashtun tribesmen whose ancestral homeland was unceremoniously sundered by British surveyors, the line meant nothing.

While the Brits' biplane bombers engaged in early aerial counterinsurgency campaigns to secure the frontier in their Central Asian "Great Game" with Russia, as British India partitioned into Pakistan in 1947 and Afghan dynasty gave way to Taliban ascendancy, the Pashtuns continued to travel freely back and forth, trading wives, grazing goats, smuggling drugs, and tending their farms on either side of the poorly demarcated border. Bloodlines trumped borderlines. To this day, some Afghan border police commute from their homes in Pakistan.

So it was with a sense of the symmetrical tragedy of history that on November 12, 2001, U.S. and coalition forces captured Kabul, only to watch Taliban fighters melt into the borderlands delineated by Durand a century earlier.

A decade later, as the U.S. readies to pull out American troops by 2014, the "Af-Pak" border region remains the home of unbowed Taliban insurgents, and the primary source of instability for both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Contrary to the prevailing wisdom, the answer to these bewildering border challenges is not to exert further control but to secure a vacuum -- a country carved out between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which the Pashtuns can finally call their own.

On many Taliban maps, the length of the border with Pakistan is already labeled "Pashtunistan." And it's easy to understand why the nearly 50 million ethnic Pashtuns native to the region -- 12.5 million in Afghanistan, and 30 million in Pakistan -- dream of independence. Though their daily lives are little hindered by Durand's doodling, these members of the world's largest tribal society chafe at any directive from Kabul or Islamabad. In fact, some argue that self-rule is so central to Pashtun identity that they are not true Pashtuns without it. They resent the corruption in both capitals, and agitate for greater development and more equitable treatment.

The ongoing Af-Pak war has only inflamed Pashtun nationalism, exacerbating longstanding tensions with Islamabad and Kabul, while American military movements create new enmities daily. Revenge, a central part of the code of Pashtunwali that governs the tribes, ensures that nearly every drone strike casualty swells the ranks of the Taliban, already largely comprised of Pashtun warriors.

As Harvard research fellow Hassan Abbas notes, "Pashtuns are at the heart of insurgency in both Pakistan and Afghanistan," with nationalism gradually morphing into a resurgent Taliban extremism. This creeping extremism was horrifically illustrated with the recent shooting of 14-year-old education advocate, Malala Yousafzai, in Pakistan's Swat Valley -- the heart of any would-be Pashtunistan -- for which the Taliban remains unapologetic.

Partially shaken out of its decades-long double-dealing with extremist elements, Pakistan has belatedly attempted to exert control over its lawless tribal areas. Yet as Asia scholar Selig Harrison writes, "sending Punjabi soldiers into Pashtun territory to fight jihadists pushes the country ever closer to an ethnically defined civil war, strengthening Pashtun sentiment for an independent 'Pashtunistan.'" On both sides of the border, America's unreliable allies only provoke -- they cannot pacify.

Meanwhile, despite optimistic assessments ahead of the Afghanistan pullout and the 2014 Afghan elections, few believe the fragile status quo will last. The Taliban have reentered Afghanistan's most peaceful provinces. Anti-American sentiment is running white-hot among the Pakistani public, while at the same time, atrocious incidents like the Pakistani couple who killed their 15-year-old daughter with acid for looking at a boy have left Americans wondering why we support Pakistan.

Tellingly, the troubling rise in so-called "green on blue" attacks by Afghan army and police on U.S. and NATO forces -- there have been 53 this year alone -- lays bare the glaring truth of Pashtun sentiment: whether the foreign presence comes from Kabul, Islamabad, or Fort Bragg, they do not want us there.

So what if, instead, the U.S. pushed for the creation of an independent Pashtunistan between the Indus River to the east and the Hindu Kush mountains to the west? Working with the U.N. and NATO allies, in concert with a loya jirga -- a grand council of the tribes -- the international community could offer development assistance in exchange for the Pashtuns abiding by international conventions and policing the Taliban within their borders. Both Afghanistan and Pakistan would lose territory -- a thought that petrifies Islamabad -- but left to their own devices, the Pashtuns could begin building their own nation, rather than destabilizing their neighbors.

Stepping back, imagine a similar approach to dozens of other former colonies turned global hotspots, from Syria to Myanmar. Imagine an international system where culture, not colonialism, determined the lines on the land and self-determination was granted real, lasting international support. It would be a messy process (and white Westerners are perhaps the least qualified to recommend such reconfigurations), but could it be any worse than the artificial and willfully indifferent mapmaking of the preceding centuries?

Given its vital importance to regional -- indeed, global -- stability, perhaps Pashtunistan is the place to start.

After all, this is no longer the "Great Game." As with most imperialistic chess matches, it was never much of a game at all. On this Veterans Day, November 11, 2012 -- a decade into America's longest war -- we remember the 2,152 of our sons and daughters who have laid down their lives defending a bygone British boundary.

The time has come to ask: where do we draw the line?

Stanley A. Weiss is Founding Chairman of Business Executives for National Security, a nonpartisan organization based in Washington. The views expressed are his own.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Seems the Huffington Post wants to now huff and puff and blow Pakistan down!
anupmisra
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by anupmisra »

RoyG wrote:^^Zoroastrianism and maybe Buddhism could soften them up a bit.
Buddhism is the main reason why the arabs and their blood relatives, the pakis, managed to gain a foothold in India's northwest. Why should that belief be given a second chance?
anupmisra
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by anupmisra »

...the international community could offer development assistance in exchange for the Pashtuns abiding by international conventions and policing the Taliban within their borders...
How naive. The liberals have learnt nothing during the past three decades.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

anupmisra ji,

apparent naivety, be it from the conservatives or the liberals, is a powerful reason for change, and if change is useful to us, then I at least welcome such naivety.
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