Managing Pakistan's failure

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RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote: The big question is how and when to get out of the Islamic forceful conversion.
Ramana It may be deeper than that. The conversion comes with the compulsion that questioning one's own beliefs or opposing them leads to pain. It's like attitudes put in childhood about fearing dogs or snakes. The fear is deep and primaeval. There is very real fear of questioning one's own beliefs because that questioning is associated with all sorts of pain and suffering. So the focus is never on the discomfort of changing what's inside, but only on saying that what is outside - that is the others, the kafirs are wrong and if they changed (converted) all would be well.

It is a very very robust model and not amenable to easy solutions.
Actually the solution is straightforward.

The solution is about taking the issue of religion completely out of the equation. Don't make it an issue of Islam. If one keeps on hammering each and every Muslim kabila, tanzeem, warlord, mafia boss, crushing them and ultimately humiliating them for their lack "strength", the fear would disappear. If one takes away every muscle that protects the Islamic mind, the Islamic model collapses.

The essence of Islam is Allah-endowed power at the personal, communal, local and national level.

If one breaks and humiliates each and every single center of power, the howva dissipates. In order to destroy power bases of others, one need not make it an issue of religion, which would consolidate those power bases, one can keep it an issue of "struggle of power between rival groups"!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by harbans »

During British times quite a few went to England and changed over to Christianity. No fatwa/watwa in those days for they couldn't deal with UK!
So its a case of bending before greater power.
This is true. Fear and Power keeps most in Islam. Without these 2 Islamism means nothing. The wielders of power in an Islamic state must have Power and the capacity to generate Fear. When the liberal left gives equal status and rights to the Islamist to preach and practise, the liberal left also condemns a vast majority within the Islamic community who could get out, but now cannot. Thus the liberal left helps sustain the fear of the Islamist. Non Islamic societies at large should realize this.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Went Sunday to Agra. Red Fort was full of Afghan National Army officers strolling around and doing some tourism. Almost all were 35+ years of age tending towards 45+. Must have been more than 25 to 30 officers.

Got a photo with them! :mrgreen:

Looks like our contact and training program with ANA is going well. :D
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

Cosmetic Diplomacy
How many times have we seen Indian and Pakistani leaders meet, say nice things, pledge their efforts to peace, and witness little change on the ground? There is cricket diplomacy initiated by Gen. Zia-ul-Haq in the mid-1980s when he invited himself to an India-Pakistan Test match in Jaipur and during the lunch period had a chat with Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. Last year Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani watched the World Cup India-Pakistan semi-finals in Chandigarh and had an hour with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Now President Asif Ali Zardari and son Bilawal conducted “dargah diplomacy” — a pilgrimage to Ajmer Sharif with a lunch break in Delhi with the Indian Prime Minister. Despite all the good intentions, these informal meetings have produced little and the Delhi detour on April 8 by the Zardaris will go down as another instance of cosmetic diplomacy that looked good, achieved little.

The supposedly new wrinkle of allowing bilateral trade and economic cooperation to take off even as the more contentious issues, such as Kashmir, are dealt with at a more deliberate pace in negotiations by diplomats trained to work at snail speed, is not new. This is the path India and China have taken, and Delhi has been trying to push Islamabad towards it for over a decade, finally with some success. It is fortuitous that Beijing, worried about the ring-fencing of China by many Asian states in cooperation with the United States, is eager to distance Delhi from Washington by incentivising non-involvement in such a containment scheme. And for this purpose is encouraging Islamabad to establish an economic nexus with India. Whatever the motivations, Pakistan has decided to confer the Most Favoured Nation status on India, a privilege Delhi had accorded Pakistan in 1996, which the latter did not have the wit to exploit. The question is if Kashmir — a core issue for Pakistan — is sought to be set aside, is Delhi’s main concern — Pakistan-based terrorist gangs operating without any official hindrance — also to receive the same treatment?

A sometime press adviser to the Prime Minister, Sanjaya Baru, has written about how Dr Singh got many things right in terms of symbolism and friendly gestures in his attempts to rev up the rapprochement process with Gen. Pervez Musharraf-led Pakistan during 2004-07. But he stopped short of revealing just why Dr Singh, on the cusp of ushering in enduring peace in the subcontinent on the basis of a Kashmir accord he had negotiated with Gen. Musharraf in 2006, got cold feet, refused to sign the deal and squandered a great opportunity that may never come again. Gen. Musharraf was desperate for that agreement, as it would have strengthened his hold on the Pakistani state, bolstered his political standing at home, kept at bay those asking him to surrender his position as Pakistan’s Army chief and impressed the Pakistani people with his achievement of getting India, for the first time, to concede an albeit slight role to Pakistan in overseeing the affairs of Jammu and Kashmir. Gen. Musharraf was satisfied because he craved some such role, however hollow.

A unique mix of tactical finesse, strategic blindness and political opportunism, Gen. Musharraf, as head of state, Army Chief and virtual dictator of the country, would have committed Pakistan to a treaty the Pakistani military could not have easily wriggled out of.

Dealing with a one-point source of power is always easier. But as a Musharraf-type of phenomenon is unlikely to recur in Pakistan any time soon, India will be compelled to deal with an elected government in Islamabad, which will always act with the inevitable veto by the Pakistan Army in mind. In the event, the dispute will continue to simmer, and occasionally come to a boil.

The Indian government’s concern with Pakistan’s “internal political dynamic” and the desire to settle outstanding disputes only with an elected government in Islamabad is, as I have repeatedly argued over the last 20-odd years, the cross this country has had to bear at a progressively higher strategic cost. Whether Pakistan is a democracy or not is the Pakistani people’s business. But the sooner Delhi gives up the idea that a democratically-elected government in Islamabad is somehow better, more amenable, from the point of view of shutting down terrorist activity than a military regime, the better it will be in terms of acknowledging the basic reality in Pakistan, and adjusting to it. An unpacified neighbour who has discovered the joys of brandishing the terrorist stick against India, moreover, is like a child playing with fire — fascinated by its heat and light rather than thinking about how it could burn down his own home. Retaliation against Pakistan in response to terrorist acts, according to national security adviser (NSA) Shivshankar Menon, is unnecessary because, as he stated at an event sometime back, “Why kill a man who is committing suicide?”

The trouble is there’s no certainty that Pakistan, an ostensibly failed state, will actually implode as a very large part of the Indian establishment believes will happen, for purely self-serving reasons.
It helps the Indian government stay with status quo-ist policies that everybody’s got used to. In any case, whatever the nature of the dispensation in Islamabad, India will have to think up some imaginative ways to get the Pakistan Army off its terrorism hobby horse. All that the official and unofficial Indian squawking and bellyaching about Hafeez Saeed does is raise the nuisance value of the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba for the Pakistani generals. This is elementary stuff but it is something the Indian government, led by the ministries of external affairs and defence, finds hard to wrap its head around. So Delhi keeps missing opportunities and Indian diplomats and the military brass keep huffing and puffing about the threat ostensibly posed by Pakistan. But, to turn the NSA’s logic around, how is a man bent on suicide a danger to you?
The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi
Does this mean, 26/11 could have been prevented?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

the right analogy is man dying of terminal disease and wanting to hasten it.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by member_22872 »

...But, to turn the NSA’s logic around, how is a man bent on suicide a danger to you?
Logic seems skewed, a person who is hell bent of committing suicide will kill himself, doesn't need any external help to hasten it. But just because a person is suicidal doesn't mean he can't hurt anyone or is harmless, in fact a suicidal person can be even more harmful if only the person so wishes, what is it to him? He is anyway dying, what goes his father if he makes up his mind to few others with him? Like we see in the US gunmen going on killing sprees before killing themselves?
Last edited by member_22872 on 12 Apr 2012 18:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Aditya_V »

venug wrote:
...But, to turn the NSA’s logic around, how is a man bent on suicide a danger to you? [\b][\quote]
Logic seems skewed, a person who is hell bent of committing suicide will kill himself, doesn't need any external help to hasten it. But just because a person is suicidal doesn't mean he can't hurt anyone or is harmless, in fact a suicidal person can be even more harmful if only the person so wishes, what is it to him? He is anyway dying, what goes his father if he makes up his mind to few others with him? Like we see in the US gunmen going on killing sprees before killing themselves?


What the Indian Political Elite fail to realise is that while a person killing himself through sleeping Pills is of little danger a suicide Bomber running towards or driving a bomb laden truck is clear and present danger to you. This is the major goof in the elite circles.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Sindh-Balochistan Connection

In context of Zardari visit to India, perhaps we should consider the following perspective.

Sindhi-Baloch (Urdu: سندھی بلوچ) are Baloch tribes living in Sindh province of Pakistan. The term Sindhi Baloch refers to the Baloch people that migrated from Balochistan to Sindh and have assimilated with Sindhis. These tribes came originally from Iran and Balochistan, and settled in Sindh from the 16th century onwards. The Baloch of Sindh use Sindhi language as their mother tongue. It is estimated about 35 to 40% of Pakistani Sindhis are of Baloch origin.

The main Sindhi-Baloch tribes are as follows:
  • Ahmedani
  • Almani
  • Bijarani
  • Buledi
  • Bulfati
  • Chandio
  • Janwari
  • Jakhrani
  • Jagirani
  • Jiskani
  • Jamali
  • Jamot
  • Jarwar
  • Jatoi
  • Khoso
  • Kalpar
  • Kalmati
  • Lashari
  • Leghari
  • Magsi
  • Marri
  • Mazari
  • Mirani
  • Nizamani
  • Nutkani
  • Rind
  • Talpur
  • Umrani
  • Zardari
Of course there are some like Shireen Mazari and others who have sold out themselves to Pakistanism. But the above fact does provide another fault line for exploitation.

Some parallels in geopolitics that deserve attention are:
  1. Just like we see the plight of Sri Lankan Tamils cause a wave of sympathy and solidarity across the Palk Straits among the Indian Tamils, one could encourage a similar sentiment of sympathy and solidarity among the Sindhi Balochis living in Sindh for their brethren in Baluchistan.

    We also see that Pakistani Pushtun living in Pakistan (Sindhi Balochi living in Sindh) are willing to go and fight for liberation of Pushtun lands in Afghanistan (Baluchistan in Pakistan) under "occupation" of NATO (Pakistani Army). The analogy may have some weaknesses, but the fact is that the Baloch in Baluchistan have been victims of Pakjabi brutality and they need liberation.

    So we have to invest in the media in Sindh invigorating the sympathy and solidarity between Sindhis and Balochis.
  2. The current strong sentiment in Scotland in favor of independence also provides a lesson. The Scots don't want to live in a country where they are second fiddle and where they feel their resources like North Sea Oil are being exploited by the England. The Scots feel that as an independent country they would be able to reassert their economic independence and provide better for their people. Similarly the Sindhis feel that the wealth generated in Sindh gets lavished on Lahore and the Pakistani Army, whereas they get nothing.

    So even though there is a strong historical connection between England and Scotland, the Scots are still willing to go their own way. That is because they don't see themselves as a part of "comity of nations" or a "part of a big diversity", but rather as the younger partner which is constantly bullied and trampled over. Same is the case in Pakistan with Sindh.

    So we have to provide the Sindhis with a different future perspective - that as part of Pakistan they will never be able to leverage their assets and geographical position, but liberated from Pakjab the sky is the limit. As a Sindh-Baluchistan Union comes up independent of Pakjab (and Pushtunistan), they would become a wealthy nation. They will have the mineral wealth of Baluchistan, the fertility of the Indus Delta, and the long coast from India to the Gulf. They can provide India with access to Iran and to Central Asia, and thus generate prosperous themselves as well. It is in their favor to dump both Pakjab and Pakistani Army and to normalize relations with India.
  3. South Sudan has been able to win its independence from the Islamist North Sudan. It has taken well over 30 years of war, but they have been able to do it.

    I am bringing up this example because one often tends to say that East Pakistan was a special case because of its geographical distance from the power center in West Pakistan. Baluchistan, or for that matter, Sindh, cannot hope to achieve independence because of the geographical proximity to Pakjab.

    South Sudan had all the Oil and despite this North Sudan was forced to let it go. Similarly Sindh (and Baluchistan) have all the Access to Sea, and despite this Pakjab can be forced to let it go.

    The Sindhis too need to be provided with all the arms, training and intelligence they need to achieve their independence
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Reclaiming Pakistan Territory: Mohajirstan

Continuing from earlier.

X-Posting Kanishka's post from TIRP Thread

Mohajirs demand a seperate state.


Should this come about, Mohajirstan can provide connectivity between India and Baluchistan (also freed from Pakistan), thus giving us a land route to West and Central Asia.

They are demanding that all of Sindh below the 26°N should become Mohajir Suba.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Supratik »

Actually only the Karachi-Hyderabad axis has Mohajirs in substantial numbers.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Yes but Tharparkar District and some other areas have considerable Hindus, who may decide to go along with the Mohajirs if it in Indian interest, and allows India more influence there.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Singha »

are Morani, advani and mirchandani also sindhi-baloch?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

One should not forget that the mohajirs were the people who actually got off their green crescent asses in india and went to Pakistan and were the wellspring of anti-India hate. If we are willing to consider that the people they left behind in UP/Bihar are barely reconciled with india then welcoming mohairs is on the same plane as Aman ki Asha - ie high hopes.

But a sudden thought occurs to me. What the hell is Punjab? Punjab has an identity ONLY because the Sikhs made an empire of it. Otherwise Punjab was like equator, or Arctic. A region. A geographic area. The area was always under rule by someone else.

Pakistanism is supported by the migrant mohajirs and the non entity Pakjabis. Maybe Pakjab should be split between Sindh, Baluchistan and Pakthunistan? Why should Pakjabis survive as a separate entity? And to hell with mohajirs. They can have more than India. They can take the Indian ocean. Cool refreshing and the winds will bow the mofos to Arabia.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

Singha wrote:are Morani, advani and mirchandani also sindhi-baloch?
Advani and mirchandani are not. Both would most likely be from Hyderabad areas of Sindh also known as Amils. The infamous LKA, was from Karachi but an Amil. Do not know about Morani. Anyways, most Baluchi tribes in Sindh are muslims. These are Hindu names.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

almost all ethnic groups have been played by external powers or have sold themselves to foreign powers. Pakjabis don't want to play game with India, because they have the guns and a whole country to lord over. Pushtuns will not play game, because of the Talibanization and because of their racism. Sindhis could play, but they really are dhimmis and follow the Pakjabis even as they protest about the Pakjabis. Baluchis are too few.

Mohajirs are a potential partner, and we can use their relations in India as a lever. Doesn't mean we should not or cannot exploit other fault-lines.

There was this rumor that Altaf Bhai had asked India for sanctuary for his men. India had declined. So there is some potential there.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Posted by Jhujar in TIRP Thread

Sindh cannot be divided ever

Code: Select all

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/columns/22-May-2012/sindh-cannot-be-divided-ever
PML-N Quaid Mian Mohammad Nawaz Sharif is the only leader of a national party, who has been categorical about how the PML-N considers division of Sindh equivalent to treason and how Pakistan's territorial integrity is linked to Sindh's borders not being tampered withOf late, we have all noticed that the signage for a separate province for Mohajirs is fast spreading in Sindh's big cities. We condemn such a movement and those forces who are actively assisting such a tehreek. Breaking Sindh in pieces would lead to bloodshed because every son and daughter of the soil would resist such a move peacefully. However, knowing the terrorist and fascists supporting such a movement, it is clear that our peaceful resistance would make us sitting targets for their firepower.There can be no distinction between any of them based on how new their entry has been in Sindh. Those who entered Sindh pre-Raja Dahir, post-Mohammad bin Qasim and post-1947 cannot be divided into bands of new and old Sindhis. It’s unheard of in the world to have separate provinces for immigrants, since by their very definition immigrants migrate to make their new homeland their home and not to carve it out into a separate home.
---------

Pakistan's Khalistan Movement has started.

As the economy of Pakistan goes downhill, people are going to come to the view that they do not get jobs because other ethnic groups corner all the sarkari jobs, as they have political power, they having their own province. The cries for a separate province for Mohajirs would only increase. When the state starts taking violent steps against the agitating masses, one would see a full-scale movement for independence even from the Mohajirs.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Interesting time line:
Those who entered Sindh pre-Raja Dahir, post-Mohammad bin Qasim and post-1947 cannot be divided into bands of new and old Sindhis.
And proceeds to say this:

It’s unheard of in the world to have separate provinces for immigrants, since by their very definition immigrants migrate to make their new homeland their home and not to carve it out into a separate home.
Yet when the immigrants come and convert the locals they can demand a separate country for themselves and claim Westhaplian status despite the fact that the very basis of Treaty of Westpahlia is the irrelevance of the religion of the ruler and the ruled!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:As the economy of Pakistan goes downhill, people are going to come to the view that they do not get jobs because other ethnic groups corner all the sarkari jobs, as they have political power, they having their own province. The cries for a separate province for Mohajirs would only increase. When the state starts taking violent steps against the agitating masses, one would see a full-scale movement for independence even from the Mohajirs.
Ganja Badmash has sensed the Bharras from Sindh will finish the Djinnah project.
This is the right time Poaqjabi follow Auarganjebi Sunna and remove Zardari from this earthly burden and arranged his meeting with Beloved Begum Boneazir. Sindh cant regain its ancient glory of Dahir's reign till Zardari sacrifice himself. Poaqama or Obama, soon stat the Hangama. Keep eye on Briturds and their dealing with Altaf Bhai. They might bump him off to delay or stall the eventuality. Rich India will keep causing the fissures in Poaqabila.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RCase »

ramana wrote:Interesting time line:
It’s unheard of in the world to have separate provinces for immigrants, since by their very definition immigrants migrate to make their new homeland their home and not to carve it out into a separate home.
Good point Ramana Garu. Since TSPians claim they are the descendants of Arabs, Turks, CAsians, Persians - hence the very basis for creating TSP is untenable! In fact, the folks who wanted a separate homeland for the Mohamedans should have been sent to Arabia; which is truly center of action for the Islamic faith.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

Sindh's last set of rulers from whom the Brits got power by a degree of perfidy were the "Talpurs" a Baluchi clan whose descendants now rank among the Sindhi high caste. Sufism is/was big in Sindh and as far as my awareness goes, although Sufs originated in Shia Iran the do not differentiate between Sunni and Shia and pretty much form a third group that allows the creation of shrines from the graves of mentors, and incorporate an ability to give people an "artistic outlet" in the form of music and dance (within the bounds of Sufi shrines) unlike dry Arab Islam that technically forbids any "enjoyable art" presumably because even the worst art will divert minds from Allah (My my - how gripping must Allah be for that to be a rule? :lol: )

But with Sufi tradition being passed down a family line Sufism has also kept feudalism going. In Punjab at least that feudalism was broken by the new Deobandi-Wahhabi nexus of groups like tha LeT/Jamaat ud Dawa and the Lashkar-e Jhangvi.

I don't how resistant Sindhi culture and politics are to restrict the entry of Wahhabandism, but Sindh has a mix of Sindhis, Baluchis and Mohajirs especially in the Karachi region. And Karachi now has a lot of Pashtuns as well with their own unique culture and they run the transport business in shitland.

And Karachi holds 33% of Sindh's population and cannot be ignored.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Supratik »

The calculation for Sindh is that the Karachi-Hyderabad axis contains about 40-50% of the population of Sindh. If you take the rest about 20% of the population is Hindu and growing. So a partition of Sindh along the Karachi-Hyderabad axis will be beneficial for the future.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2012_pg1_1
Finally, It started .
Nawabshah bus ambush kills 7

All those killed are non-Sindhis
* Sindhu Desh Liberation Army claims responsibility for attack
* Pamphlets found on site say attack in revenge for JSMM leader’s killing
NAWABSHAH: Gunmen on Friday shot dead seven passengers on a Swabi-bound bus on National Highway and wounded three others, police said.Around 50 passengers were on board when the bus came under attack at Rinn Shakh, near Qazi Ahmed Taluka of Nawabshah district.Deputy Superintendent of Police Sardar Khan Chandio said the Sindhu Desh Liberation Army had claimed responsibility for the attack. Pamphlets of the outfit claiming responsibility for the killings in revenge for Jeay Sindh Muttahida Mahaz (JSMM) leader Muzaffar Bhutto’s killing were found at the site of the attack.One body was shifted to the People’s Medical College Hospital in Nawabshah district, while the remaining six were moved to the Taluka Hospital Qazi Ahmed.The second driver of the bus, Lal Khan, told reporters that a passenger had boarded the bus from Sakrand. He had asked the driver to pull over at Rinn Shakh where his brother was waiting to get on the bus. “When the bus stopped, four armed men boarded the bus and opened fire, and later fled on two motorbikes,” Khan said.
Five people died on the spot, while two passed away at hospital. The deceased were identified as Haji Abdul Ghaffar Pathan (driver), Shahzad Hassan and Muhammad Makrab from Attock, Sameeullah Khan from Mianwali, Gulreb Khan from Swabi, Abdul Majeed and Arsalan Majeed from Taxila. One deceased could not be identified, while Qair, Tahir Ali and Ameer Ali were among the injured.According to witnesses, the attackers had been raising slogans that they had taken revenge for an attack on the Awami Tehreek rally in Karachi. Other witnesses said the assailants had said the attack was revenge for the murder of JSMM leader Muzaffar Bhutto, whose body was found from Hyderabad after 15 months of his disappearance.However, the bus cleaner, Nadeem Khan, said the attackers did not discriminate on if the victims were Sindhis or non-Sindhis. “They didn’t ask about anyone’s ethnicity. They climbed up and opened fire and fled while raising slogans.”Hyderabad Police Deputy Inspector General (DIG) Sanaullah Abbassi, who reached the site of the attack, told reporters that at least 25 bullet shells were seen around the bus. “The attackers fired inside and from outside the bus,” he said. The DIG said police could not say whether automatic weapons were used in the incident.The passengers who escaped the attack were shifted to a safe place, which the police authorities declined to reveal.A senior police officer said the incident could be an act of terrorism or sectarian violence. He further said police had launched a search operation to apprehend the killers.Meanwhile, President Asif Ali Zardari took notice of the incident and directed the authorities concerned
t
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, Pak needs to face
grenzsituation (border situation)
before they climb back from the brink.
And they will face that if US and PRC also face it in their own way.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

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Continuing from "Af-Pak -> Pak-Af Watch" Thread
shyamd wrote:I think Afghanistan will be the biggest test to Indian National security and thanks for pointing out demographics here which is extremely important. If we are going to win in Afghanistan it requires Pashtun participation, not just minorities. Hence why our aid program's are focused on Pashtun areas.
Winning or losing, all has to be seen from the lens of neutralizing Pakistan, according to various scenarios and criteria, discussed earlier.

I think India needs get in in Afghanistan with more ambition, ambition of development type. The fundamental question is to which region would the Pushtuns feel more attracted to - Northwards or Southwards. And I speak for all Pushtuns - in Afghanistan but also in Pakistan. If the Pushtuns see their destiny Northwards, then Pakistan can wave their unity goodbye. Then Pushtuns including in Pakistan would lean towards a unity with their Northern brothers to partake in the opportunities from the North. If however the pastures down south appear more bright to the Pushtuns then Pakistan can hope to keep their flock together.

Consider a scenario, Afghanistan becoming a hub of trade and mining, something like the Kurdish Regional Government area in Iraq. KRG's trade with Turkey in enormous and increasing.

Same way, if India enters Afghanistan and sets up a network of world-class highways linking Afghanistan to Central Asian Republics and Iran and at the same time ensures that Karachi dies off as a city and port, then Afghanistan would start leaning elsewhere encouraging the Pushtuns in Pakistan as well to look elsewhere.

We need to make Pakjab and Karachi poor first, so that Pushtuns can look elsewhere for their future.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by svinayak »

RajeshA wrote:

I think India needs get in in Afghanistan with more ambition, ambition of development type. The fundamental question is to which region would the Pushtuns feel more attracted to - Northwards or Southwards. And I speak for all Pushtuns - in Afghanistan but also in Pakistan. If the Pushtuns see their destiny Northwards, then Pakistan can wave their unity goodbye. Then Pushtuns including in Pakistan would lean towards a unity with their Northern brothers to partake in the opportunities from the North. If however the pastures down south appear more bright to the Pushtuns then Pakistan can hope to keep their flock together.


Same way, if India enters Afghanistan and sets up a network of world-class highways linking Afghanistan to Central Asian Republics and Iran and at the same time ensures that Karachi dies off as a city and port, then Afghanistan would start leaning elsewhere encouraging the Pushtuns in Pakistan as well to look elsewhere.

We need to make Pakjab and Karachi poor first, so that Pushtuns can look elsewhere for their future.
First Indians need to visit Afg in more numbers in safe areas. They need to interact with afg
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, I think India should support greater Balochistan. By supporting Sindh aspirations, India keeps the PPP in power.
PPP should feel the Balochi nationalism.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

ramana garu,

I think that PPP needs to be demolished. PPP is what is keeping Sindh attached to Pakistan/Pakjab.

I think one way of doing this, is if India were to adopt PPP as a sort of "our team" in Pakistani Establishment. That way the Establishment's knives would be out for PPP and would weaken it. But in Sindh we should try to encourage the more radical Sindhi parties, who can take PPP voter share away from PPP thus weakening it. The center of PPP needs to weaken in all possible ways. The more we "adopt" PPP, the more say we have in its policies and its internal functioning.

Something on the lines of how the Chinese have been able to create a Maoist monster in India while giving support to the more "moderated" CPI-M.

With time we can neutralize the middle ground (PPP), so that in the end, all that remains are two very hostile sides - Pakjabi Army vs. the Sindhi Nationalist Parties.

Then we need to join up the Sindhi Nationalist Parties with their brothers-in-arms the Balochis, both in Baluchistan and Sindh.

As a single people in Baluchistan, the Baluchis do not have much of a chance, but a Sindh-Baluchistan Federation has a much bigger chance to break out.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

Let PA remove Zardari using usual Paki means of disposal and Billu Bhutto can be the new young leader of Sindh Baloch Fedration. Zardari is the last Sindhi-Balochi link to Jinnah's Islamic Terrierstan. Z must sacrifice himself and go down in the history as the founding Father of new Desh.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Allow me to pontificate.

Post colonial India in Westphalian terms is a State of Nations(people with different language ties). In Europe, both West and East such nations each formed a State. despite such examples, India formed a State of many nations.

If we look at Terrorist State of Pakistan, the many nations that were forced together in 1947 want to pull away. Bangla Desh was the first successful one. Early on Kalat was forcedly incorporated into Pakistan and became Baluchistan. Kashmir was also unsuccessfully tried to be incorporated.

Now we see the many nations of Pakistan trying to pull away. The reason is Islam was not a unifying basis for Pakistan, just as Christianity is not for Europe.

Its the Indian civilization that is a unifying basis for India that allows the sustaining of the state of many nations.

EU is another artificial Pakistan and will unravel.

Does this make sense?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

We need to keep an eye on Justice Iftikhar Chaudahry's efforts. The TSPA image is taking a beating on corruption charges. The kabila guards cant be seen to be corrupt. So expect a purge or sacrificing the old corpse commanders either tried or suicided. And this could lead to a reform of political process by creating a small clean group while the larger group under the guards will be allowed to function. The clean group is needed for international image.

We might also see some of the thrown out military stumble into India instead of Gulf or West.

If WKKs really care for TSP survival they should go in and start a Gandhian non-violent political movement inside TSP.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Considering that Pakistan's relations with the USA are deteriorating fast, perhaps it is time that we start pressing Western governments to reconsider their largess and generosity towards Pakis.

It would be good to see ALL Western Governments
  • banning all Pakistanis from travelling to those countries;
  • deporting all illegal Pakistanis residing in those countries;
  • not renewing the visas of Pakistanis living in those countries;
  • revoking all Green Cards, and Permanent Residency Permits for Pakistanis for these countries;
  • and taking serious steps in de-recognizing those Pakistanis who already have the citizenship of those countries;
This should be done especially in the case of all relatives of those in the Pakistani Army as well as all those who show even a tinge of Islamism or Anti-Western mentality.

I would urge BRFites to go to social networks, blogs, and newspaper portals and spread the message - "You want to punish Pakistan, send its people back home"! Those who wish, they can also write to their legislators in the Western countries - American Congressmen, etc. that they need to bring legislation which makes it very difficult for Pakistanis to travel and reside in the West.

Only if Pakistanis feel trapped in Pakistan, would they seriously think about the road they have taken!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ what of those who have changed their nationalities? legally deporting them will not be easy
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Lalmohan ji,

that is a very difficult question to answer. I think several governments in the West who have already given citizenship to Salafists, etc. also don't know how to get rid of them out of their society. I read lately that on this question, some German minister said, they will try to bring all avenues available to them to bear upon the issue. I don't know what he meant.

But there are cases where people have dual-citizenship. There a Western Govt. could possibly retract their own while informing the Embassy of the country whom the individual has as his second citizenship.

Then Western Govt. can enter into agreements with Pakistani Govt. that Pakistan would give back those individual's previous Pakistani citizenship. Perhaps this can be done by bribing those in power, that their kith and kin may get Western citizenship, if they agree.

The Pakistani Govt. could say, "They are very proud of Pakistani people and will not disavow them." :wink:

Western Govt. could also simply declare the passports of these people as good forgeries and require that these people turn that passport in, or can send police to take it, or should this passport ever be shown at any airport again, that it be confiscated and the person handed over to the police. Of course, this is an extreme case, and outside the law, but if they do it, Pakis would get very scared.

If a Paki returns to a Western country, say from Pakistan, at the immigration their passports can be confiscated for being forgeries, and he can be sent back with the same plane back to Pakistan.

They should of course first start by making them out of their jobs, withdrawing all health benefits, cancelling their driving licences, collecting all their mortgages and loans, cutting off of all dole and throwing their kids out of state-subsidized schools.

If even normal Pakis start getting persecuted on made up charges, say for supporting terrorism, e.g. they allowed some Paki inside their house, who is a terror suspect; or if they gave any charity to some charity organization; or they visited a mosque, which is declared as a terrorist safe-haven, then the Pakis may get so harassed that they may themselves decide to leave those Western countries.

Simply calling somebody as a terror-suspect can have grave consequences on his chances of employment.

All the governments need to do is require all employers to check out any job seeker's credentials with the local police. In the case of Pakis, the local police can give a hint that the person is under observation in terrorist investigations. The employer would send the Paki away.

So there are many ways to harass somebody, if a govt. so wishes.

If a Western Govt. throws in a few "well-respected" Pakis of a community into prison, the others would get panicky.

I think there are ways of making the Pakis feel the heat.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

RajeshA ji,

Why are you giving out ideas for pakis to be thrown out of western countries? It will only increase their density next to us. I say, more power to the pakis in the west, may their tribe increase both organically and inorganically. In less than 10 years there will be total chaos in the west. :mrgreen:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

abhischekcc ji,

1) Pakistan is getting really a lot remittances from outside. Their economy, beside on the Western largess and loans, is running on that. The day those remittances dry up, they will be on their knees (this time with their noses inside the doodoo).

2) It is not that I am speaking in favor of decreasing the Islamist threat to the West from within. There are a lot of other volunteers from everywhere - from Palestine to Somalia, who can take up the baton.

3) I don't want all those Muslim chauvinists in Pakistan (RAPE, Establishment) etc. to escape the sinking ship. They need to go down with it. This is like letting the captain take the first boat once his ship hits the iceberg! No sir, the captain should go down with the ship! They should all feel the heat! They should all understand what they did!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from 'TIRP' Thread
Rahul M wrote:
SSridhar wrote: That warning was in late 2001.........
this is why I personally advocate that we should devote a substantial amount of our resources to keep track and eventually take out/incapacitate pak's nuke capability.

given the increasing jehadisation that is progressing through the ranks, by the time zia's progenies come to power it will be a matter of when not if.
If all the Pakis in the West are sent back to Pakistan, and no more Pakis are allowed to leave, then at least they would try to not not go under with these crackpot Jihadis through some Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) stunt.

They may try to either keep a firm grip on these nukes or they may try to get rid of them considering the threat of Jihadis taking them over and then committing a nuclear exchange with India or some other country. Of course we know that all Paki Army wallahs are Jihadis, but still ...

We need to keep those Pakis bottled up inside Pak, who do not have a death-wish and are willing to use some influence to avoid such a turn. But they should not be allowed to leave.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, Re PPP. If the TSPA coterie moves against Dus Percenti before his term is over you can bet that PPP will become less TSP party and more a Sindhi Baloch party.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

ramana wrote:RajeshA, Re PPP. If the TSPA coterie moves against Dus Percenti before his term is over you can bet that PPP will become less TSP party and more a Sindhi Baloch party.
ramana garu,

Wikipedia chachi says

PPP's seats in Provincial Assemblies in the 2008 Elections were as following:

Punjab----------------107/371
Sindh------------------ 93/168
Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa--- 30/124
Balochistan------------- 12/65

It is part of coalition governments in all four provinces: in Punjab with PML-N, in Sindh with MQM, in KP with ANP and in Balochistan with JUI(F).

So PPP actually has a country-wide presence. It is also strong in the Seraiki region of Punjab, and PM Gilani hails from there. As long as this is so, PPP would always be open to another chance in the elections for some democratic setup which may throw another chance to form a government at the national level. That would give many of its supporters some office and also access to Pakistan's coffers. The temptation would remain.

I think some splinter group from PPP and Sindh nationalist movements should take up the responsibility of Sindh-Balochistan.

If PPP had split say due to the memogate with Gilani backstabbing Zardari or something like that, then PPP under Zardari could have been a torch-bearer of Sindh-Balochistan independence movement, but with PPP together that sounds unlikely.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

RajeshA ji,

Pa'astan is toast no matter how much money they receive as remittance, bakshish, hashish sales, nuke know how sales. That is a given. The west needs to understand how much pain they caused to us by putting these clothed gorillas next to us. It is the west that needs to feel the heat more than pakis, who believe it or not, were the less active partners in the game to hurt India.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

abhischekcc ji,

don't just look at the end result of a suggestion, look at the process as well.

If and when the West start deporting Pakistanis back to Pakistan, there will be a backlash, and some very motivated Pakis would also show their displeasure at the West in creative ways copied from Osama, Baitullah, ityadi.

So if you're worried that you'll not get your popcorn's worth, don't worry, there will be plenty of pain going around.

It is not a question of whether Pakistan is toast or not, but whether they think they need company which fits into the other slot in the toaster, and look eastward. We don't want that.

No Paki should be allowed to jump ship after putting their ship on a collision course with ours.
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