Managing Chinese Threat

[Muppalla]

Is the only way for India to defend herself against China by becoming China?

I don't know. But, there must be a better way. This thread is about how to manage the Chinese threat. I'm just questioning whether the strategies formed and discuessed are in the right direction.

Past history tells that the good behaviour of India will give it and its leaders kudos from the international world. Almost every Indian PM is described as statesman. The respect in the world is immense.

Results so far:
(1) Lost terriotary to both China and Pak
(2) Got several sermons about all four lettered treaties
(3) Read articles what US wanted when India went to US begging after 1962 war

So there is nothing wrong in treating the folks sameway as they treated India and rest. Moral masturbation is all BS.

[krisna]

^^^^
India is not a weapons proliferator
India is not a nuclear arms proliferator.
India is not a supporter of any terrorism of any kind.

India has been forced to take up certain issues related to its sovereignty and integrity because of the actions of china.
There is a threat to its very existence by the actions of china.
Hence the responses.

Despite efforts by India towards peace what has china offered except stabbing.
China if it wishes peaceful co existence with India it can do so.
Is China game for that?

[brihaspati]

No amount of economic leverage is ever effective in international affairs unless backed up by military punch and judicious actual use of such punches. CPC and the PLA has to face the fruits of their unwarranted perfidy on the Tibetans and henceforth on Indians for India's passive support and giving asylum to the Tibetans. It was one part of India's heritage to give refuge to the "sharanagata". China's dictatorship punished India for passively keeping a part of its dharma and continues to do so. It has to suffer the consequences, and any sympathy or consideration extended to them is a blunder of strategy.

[TonyMontana]

To improve our position vis a vis China, we have to firstly improve economic relations with them, from education to tourism, and invest in China in order to develop "leverage" over them. We can only develop that leverage when China has serious things to lose. What does China lose today when it pricks India?

I've been trying to say this for a long time. Totally agrees. Make it worthwhile for the Chinese to not prick India and they wouldn't do it. It's all about the $$$ nowdays.

Another way of division between the people and the Party would be to increase religiosity in China.

Since you mentioned this. I would like to make a few observations. I feel there is this conception that the CPC are this evil group of commies that lords over the chinese people. What is the CPC? To get any government job, which is very desireable, you have to be CPC. With the exception of the top 5% of CPC, 95% of CPC are just your average working class Chinese trying to make a living. So what is this division when everyone have a family member in the CPC?

[brihaspati]

Does everyone have family member in the CPC? Really?Most people are members of fronts, and not the party - and even there not everyone belongs to "mass fronts". That is not how the CPC is structured. CPC never was a so-called 100% mass party. It wasnt so in its early days, it wasnt so even during the Cultural Rev days, not in the era of Dengist reforms, not post-Deng.

A 100% mass party would not have needed to start up "dangers to social stability" surveillance on increasing numbers of its own citizens - for that would mean it cannot trust its own party members.

[TonyMontana]

It has to suffer the consequences, and any sympathy or consideration extended to them is a blunder of strategy.

It's not sympathy or consideration for China. It's about what kind of country India want to be. Is sponsoring terrorism and nuclear proliferation something India want to get involved in?

India is not a weapons proliferator
India is not a nuclear arms proliferator.
India is not a supporter of any terrorism of any kind.

Exactly! Do you want India to start doing these thing as proposed in this thread?

India has been forced to take up certain issues related to its sovereignty and integrity because of the actions of china.

So doing the above is justified now?

There is a threat to its very existence by the actions of china.
Hence the responses.

I strongly disagree. If you think it's the case, you're not giving India enough credit.

So there is nothing wrong in treating the folks sameway as they treated India and rest. Moral masturbation is all BS.

Ask yourself this. What would Nazi germany do to win in Iraq and Afghanistan right now? Why don't the USA do it? Does the end really justify the means?

India does not have to feel the smallest drop of shame to retrieve what rightfully belongs to itself, and to promote proper representative democracy in its neighbourhood. ideologically, and culturally it does not have to feel the smallest drop of shame to encourage Indic origin faiths to reassert again in its neighbourhoods as they once did - over all of the subcontinent, in SE Asia and China and Central Asia.

All good and well. I agree. But is nuclear proliferation the right way to do it?

[Muppalla]

^^^^
India is not a weapons proliferator
India is not a nuclear arms proliferator.
India is not a supporter of any terrorism of any kind.

Absolutely true. However, even if India does as a change of strategy, there is no need to feel guilty.

[TonyMontana]

Does everyone have family member in the CPC? Really?Most people are members of fronts, and not the party - and even there not everyone belongs to "mass fronts". That is not how the CPC is structured. CPC never was a so-called 100% mass party. It wasnt so in its early days, it wasnt so even during the Cultural Rev days, not in the era of Dengist reforms, not post-Deng.

A 100% mass party would not have needed to start up "dangers to social stability" surveillance on increasing numbers of its own citizens - for that would mean it cannot trust its own party members.

Not everyone of cause. If you have a friend or family with a government job, it's likely. The clerks and functionaries in government departments are "encouraged". As for the bolded part, the last person any communist party trusts are it's party members. LOL

[Muppalla]

So there is nothing wrong in treating the folks sameway as they treated India and rest. Moral masturbation is all BS.

Ask yourself this. What would Nazi germany do to win in Iraq and Afghanistan right now? Why don't the USA do it? Does the end really justify the means?

I don't need to ask anyone as I am God to myself . Antharatma is paramatma - if u can understand it .

Yes US does it as it proliferated Nukes to both China and Pak. I beleive that way only. The end is beautiful if India really gives good number of nukes to Vietnam etc.

[TonyMontana]

Antharatma is paramatma - if u can understand it

I don't. Please educate. I would love to know what it means.

[brihaspati]

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66102/7045277.html
Claimed membership of 78 million comes out to less than 6% of total population by 2008 figures.
Adding peasants/farmers+workers comes to approximately 31 millions which gives around 39% of total party membership. Adding all of retired members into workers and peasants still gives only 57% [a more realistic way would be dividing up in proportional distribution the 14 million retirees].

Where do you get 95% figures?

[Carl_T]

Tibet is gone, and there is no benefit from raising the issue any more. Tibetans are a tiny minority and they will probably be eradicated or simply outnumbered. 50 years ago this would have been plausible, at this point, sacrificing blood and treasure to chase windmills will not create any benefit for India.

The important thing is to focus on the areas India is losing, that is Iran and Central Asia, and developing relations with those in addition to Africa and EAsia to undercut Chinese influence.

We will not be "punching" the Chinese anytime soon, we will have to look for other ways to increase leverage over them.

[Muppalla]

Antharatma is paramatma - if u can understand it

I don't. Please educate. I would love to know what it means.

It will become OT to this thread. it was not Antharatma but Jivatma. Read the following to get the philosophy. There are many gurus on this forum who can tell in an excellent way than me.

http://www.vmission.org.in/vedanta/articles/jpatma.htm

Note: In the interest of this topic please take atma related Q&A to Nukkad. Thx.

[brihaspati]

Tony Montana wrote
It's not sympathy or consideration for China. It's about what kind of country India want to be. Is sponsoring terrorism and nuclear proliferation something India want to get involved in?

Point to note - the context of the post was no-sympathy or consideration for the CPC and the PLA. We have no quarrel with the common Chinese. India has never started the sponsoring of terrorism on China. But China did it - and because it did so - and started it - there is no ideological dilemma in aiding those who suffered under such Chinese sponsored terror, state sponsored by the PLA and indirectly under Jihadis etc to pay back anyone connected to Chinese authority in the same coin.

All good and well. I agree. But is nuclear proliferation the right way to do it?

I don't think India is going to donate nukes to third parties. But the threat of potentially placing such nukes in anti-China hands can be used quite well and without any compunction. Whether we actually do it will depend on CPC behaviour.

[Muppalla]

Tibet is gone, and there is no benefit from raising the issue any more. Tibetans are a tiny minority and they will probably be eradicated or simply outnumbered. 50 years ago this would have been plausible, at this point, sacrificing blood and treasure to chase windmills will not create any benefit for India.

The important thing is to focus on the areas India is losing, that is Iran and Central Asia, and developing relations with those in addition to Africa and EAsia to undercut Chinese influence.

We will not be "punching" the Chinese anytime soon, we will have to look for other ways to increase leverage over them.

That is another type comment with no real basis. calling them tiny minorty in Tibet is extreme exaggaration just to argue for the sake of argument.

How about persuing Tibetans as new age freedom fighters against hans for a change? It is ok even if they are minority. Use RAW and ask LeT to use JDAMs in India and when the Pakis enter India steal them and transfer them to Tibet freedom fighters and ask them to blow up in Shanghai. It will be Chinese design blowing up in China. Beautiful plausible deniability too.

[RamaY]

No amount of economic leverage is ever effective in international affairs unless backed up by military punch and judicious actual use of such punches. CPC and the PLA has to face the fruits of their unwarranted perfidy on the Tibetans and henceforth on Indians for India's passive support and giving asylum to the Tibetans. It was one part of India's heritage to give refuge to the "sharanagata". China's dictatorship punished India for passively keeping a part of its dharma and continues to do so. It has to suffer the consequences, and any sympathy or consideration extended to them is a blunder of strategy.

B-ji,

Coincidentally I am thinking of writing another article on "Is economic progress Panacea to India's problems?" In that article I plan to summarize how the economic costs of a problem, especially the geopolitical problems, grow exponentially when a nation puts all its eggs in economic progress.

Economic progress pays the real dividends only when it is augmented by geopolitical and internal security, social cohesion, and well-established leadership culture.

[TonyMontana]

India should see to it that Vietnam receives sufficient cooperation to make it as strong a military and economic power as possible. India should also proliferate nuclear weapons technology to Vietnamese. India can start by setting up nuclear plants in Vietnam and giving Vietnamese critical knowledge of nuclear tech.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, it is one of the most efficient generator of Jihadism, and Uighur Jihadism can be nurtured there with sufficient plausible deniability. First order of the day would however be retaking PoK and breaking up Pakistan.

North Korea is perhaps the state under most pressure in the world, and would be grateful for any help. In fact Indian bonhomie with North Korea could piss off China even more than some gesture towards Taiwan. Maybe North Korea would be happy to get another friendly country to balance off Chinese influence over them.

India's aim should be nuclearization of Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam.
India along with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan should have both nuclear weapons and means to deliver them anywhwere in China.

Vietnam is crucial because only Vietnam has sufficient tough boy image to act as a middleman for nuclear proliferation in the region, e.g. to Taiwan.

A Taiwan armed to the teeth with missiles and nuclear weapons is the best guarantee of keeping PRC contained in its ambitions.

These are what I was refering to. Does the end justify the means? I wonder what the concensus is on BRF.

[TonyMontana]

Where do you get 95% figures?

Since you mentioned this. I would like to make a few observations. I feel there is this conception that the CPC are this evil group of commies that lords over the chinese people. What is the CPC? To get any government job, which is very desireable, you have to be CPC. With the exception of the top 5% of CPC, 95% of CPC are just your average working class Chinese trying to make a living. So what is this division when everyone have a family member in the CPC?

You misunderstood me. 95% of CPC. Not 95% of PRC.

[brihaspati]

Asking to abandon the Tibetans is dangerously close to what a lot of "western" strategists would demand. It suits western interests, which is now aligned with Chinese interests, if India abandons the Tibetans. It is a one-sided representation that the ethnic Tibetans are going to dissolve and vanish forever in a sea of "Hans" - if it was so simmering discontent and continuous uprisings would not have taken place. Moreover Hans would need generations to adapt to the thin air of the plateau - it is not their natural habitat.

Even if Hans swamp the plateau with oxygen masks, a Tibetan seed population lies within India. They can recolonize and settle demographic debts in the wake of liberation - especially if it is of the military kind.

[brihaspati]

Where do you get 95% figures?

Since you mentioned this. I would like to make a few observations. I feel there is this conception that the CPC are this evil group of commies that lords over the chinese people. What is the CPC? To get any government job, which is very desireable, you have to be CPC. With the exception of the top 5% of CPC, 95% of CPC are just your average working class Chinese trying to make a living. So what is this division when everyone have a family member in the CPC?

You misunderstood me. 95% of CPC. Not 95% of PRC.

You said 95% of CPC are workers etc...but actual figures show 40%.

[krisna]

India for cooperation and competition with China

As President Pratibha Patil begins a ten-day tour to Laos and Cambodia, India Wednesday sought to downplay rivalry with China in Southeast Asia saying there is 'place for competition as well as cooperation' in the region.

his will be the first visit by Patil to Laos and only the first by an Indian president to that country in more than five decades.
In Vientiane, the capital of Laos, Patil will hold talks with President Choummaly Sayasone and Prime Minister Bouason Bouphavanh on a range of bilateral issues, including economic and cultural ties.

In Cambodia, the two sides will seek to take forward their economic and energy ties.
India's ONGC Videsh has already inked an agreement for oil exploration with Cambodia. There is further scope for cooperation in this area,

The president's forthcoming visit to Laos and Cambodia and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Vietnam to attend India-ASEAN summit in October are aimed at giving renewed momentum to India's multi-faceted ties with Southeast Asia and also to counter Beijing's growing ascendancy in the region.
Many Southeast Asian countries are looking at India, another rising Asian power and a pluralist democracy, to create some balance against perceived attempt by Beijing to establish Chinese hegemony in the region.
With an eye on China's growing assertiveness in the region, Manmohan Singh will also be going to Japan and Malaysia in October for bilateral visits next month.

some urgency in engaging all the countries-soko, Laos, vietnam,Japan,Malaysia etc, not to mention Burma SL Nepal BD in the last few weeks.

[RamaY]

So there is nothing wrong in treating the folks same way as they treated India and rest. Moral masturbation is all BS.

Ask yourself this. What would Nazi germany do to win in Iraq and Afghanistan right now? Why don't the USA do it? Does the end really justify the means?

Nazi Germany is nothing but Vatican's non-state (or non-religious) actor. USA is another prong to it, albeit a modern version. USA has been doing what it can do best in Iraq and Afghanistan. If it wanted to establish a stable Afghanistan it could have outsourced Afghan-Marshal plan to UN and donated the >$50B it is spending on its war-machine there to Afghanistan.

Muppala garu is correct. India must treat its enemies the same way they would treat others, because that is the only language they would understand. (Assuming your not an Indian) Please read any Purana or Epic and you will get what he is saying. It is not Adharmic.

[TonyMontana]

You said 95% of CPC are workers etc...but actual figures show 40%.

No. I never said that. I said 95% of CPC works for a living, they might not be "workers", but they are not in the "let's oppress the people" business. That's for the 5%. It's also a rough guessimate anyway. Forget I said it. Let's move on with the thread.

[RamaY]

Tibet is gone, and there is no benefit from raising the issue any more. Tibetans are a tiny minority and they will probably be eradicated or simply outnumbered. 50 years ago this would have been plausible, at this point, sacrificing blood and treasure to chase windmills will not create any benefit for India.

The important thing is to focus on the areas India is losing, that is Iran and Central Asia, and developing relations with those in addition to Africa and EAsia to undercut Chinese influence.

We will not be "punching" the Chinese anytime soon, we will have to look for other ways to increase leverage over them.

Carl_T garu

This is very short sighted view.

First forget Burma
Then forget Sri Lanka
Then forget Tibet
Then forget Pakistan
Then forget Bangladesh
Tomorrow forget Nepal, Bhutan, JK, NE, Bengal, TamilNadu...

If you go like this, one day you will lose your wife too before losing yourself... (apologies for the harsh words)

It is really nonsensical to think India can somehow protect its interests in Iran and Central-Asia (against whom??? The same USA and PRC I guess), but somehow lost its case in Tibet.

Pakistan couldn't punch us even in its dreams. Even then it caused immense loss to India and Indian public with its Khalistan, JK and Jihadi terror. I made some posts before on the overall economic costs amounting to >$100B. This would be more than enough to provide basic Food/Health-care/Education to entire Indian BPL population.

What is the point in discussing all these points if we cannot learn from one thread to another?

[TonyMontana]

Muppala garu is correct. India must treat its enemies the same way they would treat others, because that is the only language they would understand. (Assuming your not an Indian) Please read any Purana or Epic and you will get what he is saying. It is not Adharmic.

C'mon now. Islamists beheads innocents. Should India find the relatives of Islamists and cut their heads off? There's just something a country with a stature and history like India shouldn't do.

If you stoop to their level, they will just beat you with experience.

[RamaY]

^ Islamists behead innocents. India beheads Islamists. What is wrong with that? Which part of your brain made that == hain ji?

If they are so experienced and powerful how can your ideology protect India and its interests?

[krisna]

Tibet has never been completely under the control of china over the centuries. It is occupied when china is strong and is on its own when china becomes weak.
We should never let Tibetans down.
Tibet and xinjaing are restive provinces- we dont hear news about them due to communist control over it. Even research scholars and journalists are made to toe the party line.china's wild west posted in PRC Peoples thread.

china knows only brutal suppression of people. not freedom, peace etc.
CCP is spending more money in quelling internal disturbances than on PLA. It is not rosy or they would have let in journalists and ilk all over china. There would not be suppression of news over internet or print media. Everything needs to be choreographed and vetted by the CCP before released to outside world.

If mango chinese revolts then it is curtains for the party hence it is making efforts to brutally suppress ordinary folks to instill fear, improve economic inequality to reduce imbalance in standards of living.

[krisna]

China-Wary India, South Korea Get Cozier

China is trying to do too much too soon. It will inevitably prove to be counter-productive for Beijing as its rivals, regional or distant, are bound to get together to ward off the threat from the Chinese behemoth.

With an eye on China, India has deepened its strategic partnership with Japan. Indeed, China’s growing power lies behind the recent strengthening of India-Japan ties and US support for the evolving relationship.

Already, new political alignments have begun to take shape in the region. The US has started cozying up to Vietnam, a ‘problematic’ neighbor from China’s perspective. For its part, India too is not sitting idle and is busily constructing stronger strategic partnerships with those neighbors of China which are as wary of the dragon as India. Japan is already high on the Indian radar screens. Now another important Chinese neighbor has emerged in a big way for India: South Korea, a developed nation, an economic powerhouse and most importantly a US ally.

The moral of the story: China’s rise will not go unchecked. Its rivals will get together. They have already started the preamble.

[svinayak]

Tibet is gone, and there is no benefit

First forget ....
If you go like this, one day you will lose your wife too before losing yourself... (apologies for the harsh words)

Some people think that they can decide for rest of the civilization or a nation. I am not referring to somebody here but in general. History is not part of their vocabulary and they do not have any idea on geo politics. Near borders are impartant to the long term survival of our land and culture and these people are totally oblivious of such things.

[krisna]

We can’t keep growing without ‘sweatshops’

Some 10 years ago, the Indian economy passed a defining milestone when the service sector - represented by the ‘soft’ side of the economy as distinct from agriculture and manufacturing - accounted for the first time for over 50% of GDP.

India had evidently catapulted straight from an agrarian economy to a ‘post-industrial’ stage of economic evolution, bypassing the natural order of transition from agriculture/mining to industry and then on to services.
It was fairly uncharted territory in economic history: no other country of India’s size had achieved such an economic ‘short-cut’. China, the only other country with a comparable billion-plus population, was going by the playbook of economic evolution with its low-end export-oriented manufacturing ‘sweatshops’ that drew migrant workers from China’s villages to the manufacturing centres.
In the decade gone by, India’s GDP growth has, of course, gradually edged up into a higher orbit, getting to within striking distance of China’s double-digit growth. Yet, structurally the two economies couldn’t be more different from each other.

some statistics

For instance, UBS economist Jonathan Anderson points out that during the 10-year period to 2007-08, India’s record of overall industrial export penetration was outright mediocre, registering an increase of barely 2% of GDP over that period. On the other hand, China, riding high on the strength of its ‘sweatshop economy’, registered a gain of 18 percentage points.
Specifically in the area of electronics and light consumer exports (toys, textiles, footwear and furniture), India’s performance - or lack thereof - is even more striking. India’s total annual export turnover is about one-seventh of China’s, and total exports to the US and to Europe is about one-ninth of China’s. But India’s share of electronics and light consumer exports is barely about one-thirtieth of China’s.

why is this statsistics important in the economy of India-
Demographic dividend

India will likely provide the largest increase to the global labour force over the next decade, an estimated additional 110 million by 2020.More specifically, there will be a rapid increase in the Indian population in the 30s and 40s (or the ‘thorties’, as they’ve been dubbed) over the next two decades. By some estimates, their numbers will account for nearly half of overall population growth. (By contrast, in China, which is demographically over the hill, the age 30-49 population will shrink by 20 million between 2011 and 2030.)

This large increase in labour force can be employed in manufacturing sector. Meanwhile there will loss of demographic advantage in the coming years.

There’s another compelling reason why India needs to tap into the light manufacturing export economy: the need to maintain its balance of payments.
Despite its strong services exports since the 1990s, which makes a positive contribution to its foreign exchange balance, India’s merchandise trade deficit has widened even faster.
In other words, if India is to keep its gathering ‘labour army’ gainfully employed and generate sufficient foreign exchange to bridge its merchandise trade deficit, it needs export-oriented ‘sweatshops’.
The risks, says Anderson, is that if India doesn’t get this part of the economy right, it will face higher unemployment pressures, weaker trend consumption and fading growth rates over time.

We have to keep growing economically to reap the demographic advantage by formulating GOI policies towards this end. Meanwhile sew up alliances all across other east asian nations.
With a growing economy the military needs will be taken care of easily so also the geopolitical considerations to keep our sphere of influence in tact. It requires patience determination and perseverance.

Meanwhile if china fails to grow economically there is a growing disparity between its populations with disturbances. This is will be a big advantage for other powers. China can be in deep trouble.
So plan should be to slowly take away the manufacturing base of china with tact.
IMHO Laos, cambodia, Vietnam, Burma and India are prime candidates. Of course other countries like central asia which are also poor can be tried.
JMTs. people can correct me if any additions or changes to be made.

[Atri]

C'mon now. Islamists beheads innocents. Should India find the relatives of Islamists and cut their heads off? There's just something a country with a stature and history like India shouldn't do.

If you stoop to their level, they will just beat you with experience.

Which part of Indian history are you referring to, Tony Montana ji?

Is it victory of Sudas against invading 10 kings from northwest of India?
The part where Khandavprastha was burnt?
Or is it Mauryan thrust in Persia?
Is it Vikramaditya's conquest of transoxania?
Perhaps, Bahraich, Raichur, Salher, Palkhed, Rakshasbhuvan?
Is it Battle of Rajasthan?
Great war of Mahabharat, perhaps..

India is an idea.. High and lows are transient phenomenon in the history of this idea. India have had highest of highs and lowest of lows, and managed to preserve and strike back.. and insha allah, it will strike back again.. means and ends are so non-Indian ideas.. Our time is cyclical.. we come and go and come again, so do our gods and this universe.. there is no difference between means and ends, as there are no ends in India.. The only aim in one life-time of countless "beings (Jivaatmas)" is to preserve the idea of India and what it stands for and ensure its survival while we are on this planet. Then we die and come back to resume the mantle and carry it forward..

Sudas, Krishna, pandavas, vikram, ashok, harsha, pulikeshi, rajaraja, prithvi, jaichand, akbar, aurangzeb, shivaji, bajirao, gandhi, savarkar, nehru and thousands of others, they all come and go and come again in different flavours and forms... This is the heritage of not only history but sanskaras of previous births too.. there are many "jeevas" with plenty of sanskaras of things happened in previous 1000 years... they also have the heritage of "sanskaaras" of all things prior to this millennia as well.. this heritage will ensure that the "idea" of India remains safe and prosperous... This heritage of history, experience and "Sanskaras of previous births" will ensure that whatever actions are taken for preservation of this idea, the "indian-ness" won't be lost.. there is record of bloodiest possible genocides to highest possible altruisms in the "karma-bank" of India...

This is just in response to the dose of morality and subsequent signs of "Vishaad-yoga" by you and few others...

back to the topic...

[TonyMontana]

India is an idea.. High and lows are transient phenomenon in the history of this idea. India have had highest of highs and lowest of lows, and managed to preserve and strike back.. and insha allah, it will strike back again.. means and ends are so non-Indian ideas.. Our time is cyclical.. we come and go and come again, so do our gods and this universe.. there is no difference between means and ends, as there are no ends in India.. The only aim in one life-time of countless "beings (Jivaatmas)" is to preserve the idea of India and what it stands for and ensure its survival while we are on this planet. Then we die and come back to resume the mantle and carry it forward..

What is the idea of India and what does it stand for? I want to tread delicately here because I'm gonna talk about religion. I'm from a Buddhist background, I understand what you're getting at. But at the same time I'm also an engineer. The cyclic nature of this universe to me is a philosophical matter and not hard scientific fact. Even if your religion is correct, we're talking such a long period of time. To form government policies on reglious interpretations has always been problematic. One only need to look west of India for examples.

Sudas, Krishna, pandavas, vikram, ashok, harsha, pulikeshi, rajaraja, prithvi, jaichand, akbar, aurangzeb, shivaji, bajirao, gandhi, savarkar, nehru and thousands of others, they all come and go and come again in different flavours and forms... This is the heritage of not only history but sanskaras of previous births too.. there are many "jeevas" with plenty of sanskaras of things happened in previous 1000 years... they also have the heritage of "sanskaaras" of all things prior to this millennia as well.. this heritage will ensure that the "idea" of India remains safe and prosperous... This heritage of history, experience and "Sanskaras of previous births" will ensure that whatever actions are taken for preservation of this idea, the "indian-ness" won't be lost..

As I say to all religious statements, no insult intended.

[Citation needed]

there is record of bloodiest possible genocides to highest possible altruisms in the "karma-bank" of India...

Here lies the biggest problem. To me, you are now trying to justify the "bloodiest possible genocides". There is something wrong with this.

[brihaspati]

You said 95% of CPC are workers etc...but actual figures show 40%.

No. I never said that. I said 95% of CPC works for a living, they might not be "workers", but they are not in the "let's oppress the people" business. That's for the 5%. It's also a rough guessimate anyway. Forget I said it. Let's move on with the thread.

Unfortunately, what you said was in full : "95% of CPC are just your average working class Chinese trying to make a living", but actual reported stats shows only 39% or at most 57% "working class". If you are going for 5% part - the party-functionary part works out to 8.45%.
"CPC members worked as managing, professional and technical personnel in enterprises and public institutions" runs to 22.7% of CPC membership. I thought these were categorized as non-working class until even Deng! So managing personnel are no longer exploiting bourgeoisie or "running dogs of imperialism" or comprador bourgeoisie?

Now, even if we discount the "class-composition bit", what is the basis of your claim that 95% of the members are just trying "to make a living"? Your insistence on this almost seems like a Freudian slip! Is becoming a party member necessary to make a living? Probably not so - because then the remaining almost 94% of Chinese are not making any living. This is then going to be inconsistent with the overall GDP growth rates.

So if the CPC members are not in the party to make "a living" - they must be there for non-making-a-living reasons. What could be such reasons? if only 5% are there in the "lets oppress the people" motivation why are the remaining 95% in the CPC tolerating such 5%? You are deepening the mystery!

[Atri]

I did not bring morality in real politik, Montana ji... I simply replied to your invoking of "India's history and stature". It matters not to me, which "Moksha-Maarga" you follow, but also for the Raaj-Dharma of India this is of no concern.

I simply wish to point out that being an engineer, you will appreciate the "cold-hearted" logical arguments invoking the ancient law of "tit-for-tat" given forth by many other members vis-a-vis the subject of this thread - that is management of chinese threat. To counter those arguments, you invoked the "moral high ground" argument of India by referring to India's history and stature. I think you were referring to kindness and goodness and non-violent dharma-vijaya aspect of Indian history. correct me I was wrong. I only pointed out that India and her history is much more than that.. Regarding cyclical nature of time, it was regarding "our" world-view. Here "our" refers to world-views of Indian origin. This was not about "your" or "my" religion...

While you fixated on "bloodiest possible genocide", you ignored "highest possible altruism". There is no justification for things that have happened.. What is left is only experience and memories. I haven't conquered the "time" to earn the right of justifying history. I am simply making a statement..This was just in response signs of "Vishaad-yoga" by you and few others.

regarding citation, I did not understand. You want citation for the "rebirth" theory? You only have to read wiki article. If you are asking for empirical evidence for rebirth, I have none..

[TonyMontana]

You are deepening the mystery!

I was talking about government jobs... Anyway, I stand corrected. You are right, I'm wrong.
Let's move on.

I simply wish to point out that being an engineer, you will appreciate the "cold-hearted" logical arguments invoking the ancient law of "tit-for-tat" given forth by many other members vis-a-vis the subject of this thread - that is management of chinese threat. To counter those arguments, you invoked the "moral high ground" argument of India by referring to India's history and stature. I think you were referring to kindness and goodness and non-violent dharma-vijaya aspect of Indian history. correct me I was wrong. I only pointed out that India and her history is much more than that..

I'm not saying India shouldn't do these things because of her history. I'm saying if India does these things she will be no better then China. And if India is just another hegemony in Asia, then what is wrong with the things China is doing to India? You're saying to beat the bully, India have to become the bully. Is that what you want India to be? To replace China? To become another China?
"Moral high ground" is a powerful tool. It marks out the world in terms of good guys and bad guys. India right now is one of the good guys. She has friends and support in the world. But if she becomes another Bully, she will be treated as such.

If you are asking for empirical evidence for rebirth, I have none..

This was what I meant. But I digress.

[Bade]

"Moral high ground" is a powerful tool. It marks out the world in terms of good guys and bad guys. India right now is one of the good guys. She has friends and support in the world. But if she becomes another Bully, she will be treated as such.

How will India become a bully because she has now decided to bully a bully. She becomes one only when she bullies the weak but good guys, which she has no intention of doing.

[ramana]

The mind of a modern Indian Liberal is to ensure that no harm comes to PRC from India. karat, the lefties etc all were of that mind set.

[shiv]

Well said Sibalji

We should consider issuing stapled visas to Tibetans travelling on Chinese passports to underline that we had recognised a genuinely autonomous Tibet as part of China, not a militarised Tibet threatening our security and serving to make additional territorial demands on us.

Read more: China's power play - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... z0z00DfFKI

[Atri]

"Moral high ground" is a powerful tool. It marks out the world in terms of good guys and bad guys. India right now is one of the good guys. She has friends and support in the world. But if she becomes another Bully, she will be treated as such.

Regarding China, no one here questions the right of China to project her power all over. What people here demand is projection of Indian power as well, so that Chinese-power-projection stops having inhibitory effect on India. This is not about good-bad, right-wrong.

Just like any other tool, "Moral high-ground" has its pros and cons. It works in certain conditions and in certain other conditions, it becomes a liability. It is "one of the tools" and that is how it should be and all these tools (including moral high-ground) have been used by India in her history on many occasions. India has shown all types of responses on individual-communal-societal-national-civilizational level. Those responses were based on the contemporary circumstances and aimed at preserving the interests of Indian way of life and its understanding in given space-time. There is no need to care for certificates of goodness and badness. In objective realpolitik, these are worthless anyways.

Coming back to your "good-guy-bad-guy" argument, I would love to know what national-policy is "high" in your morality? that might be a digression here, may be in GDF-distorted history thread. What is meant by "good boy" that India is (according to you). Who gives that certificate? There are millions who call India as "bad-boy" too. Are they not humans? does their opinion not count?

[TonyMontana]

How will India become a bully because she has now decided to bully a bully. She becomes one only when she bullies the weak but good guys, which she has no intention of doing.

So nuclear proliferation and terrorism is okay as long as the end-recipients are the bad guys.

As for the bolded part. Is the world going to take your word for it? Assumes that India does what this thread suggests and succeeds. India is now a nuclear proliferator, sponsor of terrorism, and a military and economic power unrivaled in Asia. Can we assume that India will be the moral and righeous leaders of Asia? Many people in history has said, "This time will be different. Once we have power, we're gonna be the good guys. You'll see." Things tend to workout different. Why is India so special? If you looks like China and walks like China...well...