Managing Chinese Threat

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svinayak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

sanjaykumar wrote: Tibet will be free. India and China will be best friends again when the no longer share a border.

If you visit Chinese temples or look at the classical period's artistic flowering, their religious beliefs, their culture (playwrights, numerals quadratics etc) and thus their indebtedness to India, it is impossible for Indians to hate Chinese.
But the PRC is aiming for the these same temples from Tibet and border area. They seem to want to own the culture and also show a false hstory of Tibet and Tibet religion.
It looks like pre planned and also with coordination with some western countries.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

If the Chinese are putting demands such as demolition of fortifications, stopping of night patrols or not tailing Chinese patrols for withdrawing from DBO sector, how do these square off with the Chinese Government's claim that the Chinese troops are only within Chinese territory or Salman Kurshid's repeated assertions that the borders are nor 'sharply defined' and there is a 'perception problem' ?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by eklavya »

The CPC/PLA are old-fashioned bullies. Also, telling lies comes naturally to the CPC/PLA. I really liked Singha's and other members' suggestions about making life miserable for the soldiers in the Chinese camp. Also, nothing to be lost by buzzing them every hour with low level sorties by fighter aircraft. They might die of exhaustion.
ramana
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

Saurav Jha type of articles are defeatist fifth columnist articles.

Rapid Reaction Force my left foot.
PLA will get whats coming to them.
And PRC will finally be liberated.
Agnimitra
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Agnimitra »

Video debate:
The Last Word: How serious are the Chinese incursions in Ladakh?
Karan Thapar's show with:
Salman Haider
Brahma Chellaney
B. Raman
Gen. Malik

chellaney says India needs to reopen the 'core issue' :mrgreen: of tibet.
svinayak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

Carl wrote:
chellaney says India needs to reopen the 'core issue' :mrgreen: of tibet.
Because it is the right time. World opinion is against PRC or neutral to PRC right now

PRC is caught in complex global world which it does not have much to maneuver.
RoyG
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RoyG »

Carl wrote:Video debate:
The Last Word: How serious are the Chinese incursions in Ladakh?
Karan Thapar's show with:
Salman Haider
Brahma Chellaney
B. Raman
Gen. Malik

chellaney says India needs to reopen the 'core issue' :mrgreen: of tibet.
What are you so happy about? It wont happen under the current gov.
member_23692
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by member_23692 »

brihaspati wrote:Actually - contrary to the claim that "internationalizing == leaking" is a way to pressurize the Chinese to "stop" or "withdraw", with no other country taking up any cudgel on behalf of India, "leaking" has now actually made it such a public issue that the Chinese will make it into a "loss of face" issue.

Whatever GOI had to do - bash up the PLA soldiers or given ultimatums or given concessions to land where not even a blade of grass grows - should have been done very very quietly, or on ambush mode.

But, why on earth should we be worried about the Chinese loss of face ? They come into our territory and we worry about their loss of face ? I know you are not worried about their loss of face either, you are only concerned about the possible retribution by the Chinese in reaction to the loss of face. But that implies that we are not prepared for the worst. Why not ? Again, I know you are not one of those, but I want to ask a question here of the "10 percenters". How many more years of 10 percent growth are required until we are prepared for the worst ? And how many kilometers will the Chinese encroach on until then ?

And I also have a question for all the opposition parties. Where are they hiding ? What is their position on this issue ? Where are the Advanis and Sushmas and Jaitlies ? Where is our esteemed Nitish Kumar on this ? Perhaps he is saving all his outrage for Modi. I would like to see Modi come out with a clear nationalistic stand on this rather than pay heed to his party and walk on egg shells, not taking any strong stand.

Actually, arguments for secrecy only play further into the hands for the anti-national politicians across party lines. These politicians, ruling and otherwise, dont want this to become public. Their "business as usual" will be seriously disrupted if they have to take a strong stance, not to mention that they will all be exposed, as the deficiency of our weapon systems purchased via a massively corrupt process will come out.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

No violation of bilateral pacts, says China - Ananth Krishnan, The Hindu
In its first comments on the recent tensions along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), China’s Ministry of Defence said on Wednesday the People’s Liberation Army’s (PLA) frontier forces had not violated any bilateral agreements.

The Defence Ministry also said, in a faxed statement in response to questions from The Hindu , that it was “maintaining contact and coordinating” with its counterpart in India over the expected visit of Defence Minister A. K. Antony to China, and China did not see the recent boundary tensions as derailing the visit scheduled for May or June. The ministry did not, however, reply to questions on what triggered last week’s strains.
Indian officials have said both sides had, in the past, carried out patrols in disputed areas where perceptions of the LAC differ. Neither side had, however, set up a tented post in a disputed area in many years.

Chinese officials have insisted that the PLA did not trespass the LAC, and blamed differing perceptions of the line for the row. Other sources have, however, suggested the PLA’s move could have been a response to recent Indian deployments. At Tuesday’s flag meeting, the Chinese side was reported to have said it would only withdraw if India dismantled recent fortifications in eastern Ladakh.

Defence exchanges had been suspended for close to one year in 2010 after China refused to host the then head of the Northern Command citing “sensitivities” on the Kashmir issue.

The People’s Liberation Army has since eased its stance, hosting Indian delegations which included officers from Jammu and Kashmir, and last year also arranged a rare visit to Tibet to boost trust. This was followed by a visit to India by former Defence Minister Liang Guanglie in November.

Separately on Tuesday, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying told reporters that China wanted both countries to “properly” address any issues regarding the boundary “within the framework of existing mechanisms” in order to create “favourable conditions” for ties.

“The two countries have a consultation and coordination mechanism on the boundary issue. There are open communication channels of communication between the two countries,” Ms. Hua said.

She added that China’s frontier troops were “conducting normal patrols on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control”.

Contrary to reports, she neither accepted nor rejected India’s calls to return to the status quo prior to last week’s incursion.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

rsangram wrote: . . .but I want to ask a question here of the "10 percenters". How many more years of 10 percent growth are required until we are prepared for the worst ? And how many kilometers will the Chinese encroach on until then ?
This argument that we need to grow at 10% for two decades and somehow everything would fall in place for India is tenuous to say the least and is even specious. By that time, India might not even exist as a nation state if the on-going terrorism, encroachment, internal fissiparous groups, misgovernance etc are taken into account. The rest of the world is not going to stand still during this time either. IMO, such an argument is to mask our fear of taking decisive actions. As procrastination is our habit and hallmark, there is no wonder that we invent reasons.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by brihaspati »

rsangram wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Actually - contrary to the claim that "internationalizing == leaking" is a way to pressurize the Chinese to "stop" or "withdraw", with no other country taking up any cudgel on behalf of India, "leaking" has now actually made it such a public issue that the Chinese will make it into a "loss of face" issue.

Whatever GOI had to do - bash up the PLA soldiers or given ultimatums or given concessions to land where not even a blade of grass grows - should have been done very very quietly, or on ambush mode.

But, why on earth should we be worried about the Chinese loss of face ? They come into our territory and we worry about their loss of face ? I know you are not worried about their loss of face either, you are only concerned about the possible retribution by the Chinese in reaction to the loss of face. But that implies that we are not prepared for the worst. Why not ? Again, I know you are not one of those, but I want to ask a question here of the "10 percenters". How many more years of 10 percent growth are required until we are prepared for the worst ? And how many kilometers will the Chinese encroach on until then ?

And I also have a question for all the opposition parties. Where are they hiding ? What is their position on this issue ? Where are the Advanis and Sushmas and Jaitlies ? Where is our esteemed Nitish Kumar on this ? Perhaps he is saving all his outrage for Modi. I would like to see Modi come out with a clear nationalistic stand on this rather than pay heed to his party and walk on egg shells, not taking any strong stand.

Actually, arguments for secrecy only play further into the hands for the anti-national politicians across party lines. These politicians, ruling and otherwise, dont want this to become public. Their "business as usual" will be seriously disrupted if they have to take a strong stance, not to mention that they will all be exposed, as the deficiency of our weapon systems purchased via a massively corrupt process will come out.
I am not worried about the Chinese "loss of face". Neither am I telling anyone that we should be worried. All I am saying is that the Chinese will now play it as a "loss of face" issue, and given the attitudes from GOI front, [no "escalation" - note that China never uses the word that they do not want escalation - they always use the line that the "enemy" is "escalating" to which theyr are onlee responding in "defense" - the pithy Maoist phrase is "defensive counter offensive", a very typical trait in common with the Paki/Islamist], China here has the upper hand.

India already has created its escape route by propagandizing that going to war == loss of FDI == loss of gazillions of prosperity == valuable developmental resources diverted to war whose outcomes are "uncertain" == not escalating == a little concession to the chinese for everlasting(== x years until the next peaceful patrol another 20 km inside) peace == freeing up of valuable resources to develop the exploited and underdeveloped Dalits and minorities whose upliftments from casteism and brahminical repression for a thousand year of enlightened rule of Islamics and Brits and 60 years of their successors Congress, have all been eaten away by ruthless hindutvavadis ruling for half a decade.

So its going to be easier for GOI to concede and for CPC not to concede.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Singha »

Admins might want to lock this thread and re-open it only if something happens.

we are all on same page, but nobody in GOI seems willing to listen to any saner elements incl ex-IA/ex-IAS types.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Singha ji,

This thread was there before this incident. It is not tied to this incident. So why the calls for locking it?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pranav »

Acharya wrote:
Carl wrote:
chellaney says India needs to reopen the 'core issue' :mrgreen: of tibet.
Because it is the right time. World opinion is against PRC or neutral to PRC right now

PRC is caught in complex global world which it does not have much to maneuver.
What is needed is firmness and strength, but without unnecessary hostility. Maybe Namo would be able to handle it right.

In the past both India and China have been manipulated by west for their own interest.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Austin »

Salman Travelling to China to resolve this issue reports times now.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Karan Dixit »

Singha wrote:Admins might want to lock this thread and re-open it only if something happens.

we are all on same page, but nobody in GOI seems willing to listen to any saner elements incl ex-IA/ex-IAS types.
I hope Indian electorate will teach Congress/UPA a lesson they will never forget.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Rudradev »

Austin wrote:Salman Travelling to China to resolve this issue reports times now.
Neville Chamberlain.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Pranav wrote:
Carl wrote:
chellaney says India needs to reopen the 'core issue' :mrgreen: of tibet.
Acharya wrote: Because it is the right time. World opinion is against PRC or neutral to PRC right now

PRC is caught in complex global world which it does not have much to maneuver.
What is needed is firmness and strength, but without unnecessary hostility. Maybe Namo would be able to handle it right.

In the past both India and China have been manipulated by west for their own interest.
I think this is wrong!

Why is hostility being discarded as a tool of war?
Why is hostility being considered as some inferior frame of mind not deserving of sitting in the war room or at the cabinet meeting?
Why are we so afraid to embrace hostility? Would it make us lose our standing in the community of nations as logical people?

Hostility is a powerful emotion that is needed in our leadership and in our people!

- Due to hostility, Indians can be moved to completely boycott Chinese products, Chinese components, Chinese services and Chinese businesses.

- Due to hostility, Indian leadership can be moved to not let a few nice words from the Chinese totally disarm them, making their hopes of peace rise sky-high!

- Due to hostility, Indian leadership can start thinking of adopting an aggressive offensive forward strategy against China on the border and elsewhere.

- Due to hostility, we can make the necessary changes in our MIC on a war-footing, driven by something more than "analysis"!

The Chinese take over our land, and we should not be hostile towards them!!! :shock: We should embrace hostility at every level, and vow to push them off our land, not just our land they have camped in since a few days, but our land in Tibet as well!

It is because in some quarters which think emotions are below us, that we have come to this stage of dispassionate laid-back attitude! Yes in a highly self-aware confident missionary society, it may have been different but we are not there by a long shot, and in this situation, it is only the highly charged emotions that would help us lift our sorry asses and give the enemy a bloody nose!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

Rudradev wrote:
Austin wrote:Salman Travelling to China to resolve this issue reports times now.
Nehru Chamberlain.
He should tell them that Indian Public opinion is of the view that Ji' is not welcome in India at this juncture and India need to do strategic review of its China policy.
Anyone remember the name of the pencil pusher penny counting Babbu still holding the file on raising new MSC to counter this kind of adventure by Commies.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Singha »

any amt of shiny hw is useless if political spine is lacking. kurshid's body language and govt's manner is defeatist in extreme. writing is on wall. retreat, shame and defeat are familiar companions whenever india has been ruled by weak pleasure seeking ruling class. :D

on other hand the rag tag equipped vietcong first defeated the french and then the US because they were ready to fight with whatever they had - rubber chappals and knockoff ak47, regardless of the B52 and napalm raiding death on their villages. cheen also fought US to a standstill in Noko and gave birth to that puppet state. even the iraqi insurgents with crude IEDs gave a strong fight to khan army and are now busy killing each other.

muscles without a heart is just a limp corpse.
Last edited by Singha on 25 Apr 2013 10:09, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

In fact, I want India to show some 'hostility'. So far, the hostile behaviour has been quite one-sided, only from PRC
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

SSridhar wrote:In fact, I want India to show some 'hostility'. So far, the hostile behaviour has been quite one-sided, only from PRC
No Harm if some Junior Armyman, Babu or politicians quietly challenge if Chinese are willing to loose Shanghai ,Shenzen for small camp near DBO.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

Ladakh will dominate Li-PM talks - ToI
India is weighing stronger counter-measures against Chinese troops who have pitched tents in Depsang valley in Ladakh. While the government is divided on whether to actually show muscle, it is clear this issue will overshadow the first visit to India by new Chinese premier Li Keqiang on May 20.

Caught off-guard by China's latest provocation, India now believes that China's decision to set up camp in Ladakh could be a way to compel New Delhi to negotiate and sign a border defence cooperation agreement. India has been wary of signing any such pact with China. Many in the Indian security establishment believe such an agreement could allow China unprecedented insights into the Indian defence system, which New Delhi is not yet ready for. Besides, Indian officials worry that signing such an agreement could signal that it is veering towards a Chinese sphere of influence.

On the ground, India believes the agreement would not prevent border intrusions.

The pact was proposed by the Chinese during a secretary-level meeting in March. India and China have signed several agreements in the past 20 years intended to keep a "peaceful and tranquil" border. None of them have stopped the Chinese intrusions into Indian territory and it believes the new one will not either.

With negotiations on to resolve the current impasse, sources said, the defence cooperation pact could be used as cover to move Chinese troops back before a high-level visit by Li.
But this might have adverse consequences for both countries, because it could raise popular suspicion in India about Chinese intentions. {It is very obvious that this operation, as we have been saying here, is designed to dovetail with Li's visit. Foolish GoI was saying all along that it did not want to upset the visiting Chinese PM. India was totally outwitted and outmanouevered, as usual}

India has been caught off-guard by the Chinese {India is a unique country in that it repeatedly is caught off-guard and it never learns} — aggressive patrolling is now routine for both sides, but the Chinese action of pitching tents was deemed provocative. That, said sources, was the reason for India's sharp response, demanding that Chinese troops revert to their previous positions. {What a joke ! Demanding the Chinese to revert to earlier positions is considered as a sharp response ? Only in India !}

"If this issue is not resolved, there will be political costs for China," said senior officials.

This is not what the government had in mind when, soon after the meeting in Durban between Manmohan Singh and Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the BRICS summit, the Indian government was surprised by an initiative from the Chinese side proposing New Delhi as the first destination for Li Keqiang. The Chinese Premier will visit India, Pakistan and Germany. In fact, after officially taking over, Li's first telephonic conversations were with Singh and German chancellor Angela Merkel. So the Indian establishment is hoping that the visit would see an uptick in bilateral ties, which are frequently strained. The PMO was keen to flag Li's visit as a success story for the UPA government and therefore, there is an effort to show the incident as being little more than routine.
{What a shame that the thinking is like this !}
That was before the Chinese set up camp in Ladakh, evoking memories of Kargil. The MEA and PMO's carefully scripted moves are likely to come undone by a political and popular clamour to take stronger action against repeated Chinese intrusions. That is driving government to consider measures like cancelling visits by Chinese delegations, or some show of force locally that stops short of exchange of fire. The struggle is to insulate this incident from the larger bilateral ties, but that may not be possible.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pranav »

RajeshA wrote:
Pranav wrote: What is needed is firmness and strength, but without unnecessary hostility. Maybe Namo would be able to handle it right.

In the past both India and China have been manipulated by west for their own interest.
I think this is wrong!

Why is hostility being discarded as a tool of war?
Why is hostility being considered as some inferior frame of mind not deserving of sitting in the war room or at the cabinet meeting?
Why are we so afraid to embrace hostility? Would it make us lose our standing in the community of nations as logical people?

Hostility is a powerful emotion that is needed in our leadership and in our people!

- Due to hostility, Indians can be moved to completely boycott Chinese products, Chinese components, Chinese services and Chinese businesses.

- Due to hostility, Indian leadership can be moved to not let a few nice words from the Chinese totally disarm them, making their hopes of peace rise sky-high!

- Due to hostility, Indian leadership can start thinking of adopting an aggressive offensive forward strategy against China on the border and elsewhere.

- Due to hostility, we can make the necessary changes in our MIC on a war-footing, driven by something more than "analysis"!

The Chinese take over our land, and we should not be hostile towards them!!! :shock: We should embrace hostility at every level, and vow to push them off our land, not just our land they have camped in since a few days, but our land in Tibet as well!

It is because in some quarters which think emotions are below us, that we have come to this stage of dispassionate laid-back attitude! Yes in a highly self-aware confident missionary society, it may have been different but we are not there by a long shot, and in this situation, it is only the highly charged emotions that would help us lift our sorry asses and give the enemy a bloody nose!
One should listen to and understand the other side. The Chinese may have had their own perceptions of Nehru's policies of allowing the CIA to train Tibetans, for example.

One has to understand the differences between the outlook and long-term objectives of the Sinic civilization vs. those of the western power structure. China is important because it is one major power which is least subverted. Far more independent than India.

From Indian POV, the policies of the western power structure have arguably been more damaging. Are those advocating hostility willing to show at least as much hostility towards the west?

Not that I am advocating hostility towards anybody ... ultimately one has to do whatever it takes to advance national interest, including cooperating with the west where necessary. Strength and vigilance, with understanding, is the best approach.
Last edited by Pranav on 25 Apr 2013 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
SSridhar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

Pranav, yes, I do advocate hostility with the Chinese and if and when the situation demands, I have no hesitation in advocating the same to anybody else, including the West or the East or the Middle East or any other direction.

Added later: This thread is about China and we are discussing the recent developments. Let's not sidetrack.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pranav »

SSridhar wrote:Pranav, yes, I do advocate hostility with the Chinese and if and when the situation demands, I have no hesitation in advocating the same to anybody else, including the West or the East or the Middle East or any other direction.
Fair enough.

It may indeed be necessary to demonstrate to the Chinese that we mean business, but the relationship has to be managed within the larger picture.

For us the larger picture includes the internal subversion (as documented for example by Rajiv Malhotra), the need to pacify the South Asian neighborhood, and the evolution of global power equations.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Singha »

>> "If this issue is not resolved, there will be political costs for China," said senior officials.

rotfl how? will the clowns in charge recognize free tibet and overtly take back the shameful acceptance of chinese ownership of tibet they had signed up for earlier?

will they stop Li visit ?

delhi looks for ways not to offend visiting leaders
beijing looks for ways to offend visiting leaders
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

China sore with Indian bid to build infrastructure along LAC - ToI
Excerpts
China appears to have underlined its unhappiness with the heightened Indian activity "far too close" to the border, be it the troop movement, erection of new border outposts (BOPs), re-operationalization of airstrips such as Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO), and laying of border roads for better connectivity.

In fact, the Chinese side made it a point to flag the "increased Indian activity in border areas over the past several months" during the two flag meetings held between the Indian and Chinese local commanders to resolve the latest incursion by PLA troops in the Depsang area. Sources in the security establishment said though the Chinese drew attention to the new Indian fortifications and infrastructure that have come up close to the Sino-Indian border, they stopped short of overtly demanding dismantling of the same as a pre-condition for retreat of their troops from Raki Nala.
China has five fully-operational airbases, an extensive rail network and over 58,000-km of roads in Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). India's infrastructure projects started well after these Chinese developments. Even then, Indian projects are on a modest scale.

The Chinese have been relentlessly upping the ante in this region. They have also tested out various scenarios and weapons. In c. 2009, it demonstrated its ability by amassing 50000 troops for a military exercise in TAR in the largest long-range military exercise codenamed STRIDE-2009. The Lanzhou Military Region, which faces Ladakh, has 220,000 PLA troops, including an armoured division and two motorised infantry divisions. The Chengdu Military Region, opposite India’s north-eastern states, has some 180,000 PLA troops, including two armoured brigades and four motorised infantry divisions. The Pentagon reported in late August 2011 that China was replacing its liquid-fuelled CSS-2 (DongFeng 3) missiles along the LAC with more modern solid-fuelled Medium Range Ballistic Missile CSS-5 (DongFeng 21) with 250 kT nuclear warheads. The Chinese, while not denying the development, simply said that it was “normal for the Army to develop and renew weapons and equipment given the progress of science and technology”, thus admitting to the accuracy of the Pentagon report. In October 2011, the PLA conducted a live-fire drill comprising air force and armour and artillery units in TAR. In March 2012, the PLAAF J-10 fighters, suitably modified to operate in Tibetan conditions, conducted a live-fire ground attack drill. In June 2012, the PLA conducted a live-fire drill in TAR for anti-tank units to “test their precision strike capability” A brigade under the Tibet Military Area Command of the PLA organised its anti-tank unit to conduct a live-fire drill in “a bid to uplift the psychological quality of the troops, enhance and test their precision strike capability”. In July 2012, PLA conducted a high altitude exercise with a new type of surface-to-air missile (tailor-made for rarefied atmosphere in TAR) in TAR. The exercise was carried out at a mountain pass at an altitude of 5000 metres by a mobile PLA unit, and that three missiles were successfully fired at enemy aircraft targets in the “South-east” direction, the only country lying in that direction being India.

The messages from these events could not have been missed by us.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Singha »

I am confused about one point - is there ANY road at all to the DBO airbase?

if not, how did Ahuja sir's scenario have BMPs and T72's running around there with delaying actions?

realistically other than IAF with a mass of SFW weapons, what would it take in terms of armour, artillery to tackle a chinese force coming out of aksai chin with a intent of a "punishment raid" to take over DBO/depsang plain and kick us out of that flat patch?

1 PLA armour div - 55 x ZTZ99 and support elements
1 division of heavy artillery
few regiments of light arty
1 MLRS unit
2 motorized brigades with a mix of trucks, wheeled and tracked APC
1 special forces batallion
2 sqdn helicopter gunships
2 sqdn Mi17
1 HQ propaganda/psyops unit to take video of captured prisoners, show glorious red flag flying over indian huts and so on...
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by eklavya »

Top China authorities may have okayed incursion, no pullout soon
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times New Delhi, April 25, 2013
First Published: 00:32 IST(25/4/2013) | Last Updated: 09:31 IST(25/4/2013)

The government may have downplayed the Chinese incursion in the Ladakh sector as a localised affair, but top military sources indicate it had the approval "from the highest authorities" in China.


Worryingly, there's a growing suspicion within the military establishment that the intruding Chinese soldiers may hold on to Indian territory for quite some time, "if not permanently."
The IAF will be essential to undo this occupation: logistics and attack.
SSridhar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

Singha, AFAIK, there is no motorable road. The trade route from Nubra Valley to KK Pass passes through Sasser Pass and then DBO.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

AKA says talks won't resolve this issue incursion and is in favour of using force. Khurshid says lets try diplomacy. Both at odds
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by JE Menon »

>>>I do advocate hostility with the Chinese and if and when the situation demands, I have no hesitation in advocating the same to anybody else, including the West or the East or the Middle East or any other direction.

+1 AoA
SSridhar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

eklavya wrote:Top China authorities may have okayed incursion, no pullout soon
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times New Delhi, April 25, 2013http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=1447092#
First Published: 00:32 IST(25/4/2013) | Last Updated: 09:31 IST(25/4/2013)

The government may have downplayed the Chinese incursion in the Ladakh sector as a localised affair, but top military sources indicate it had the approval "from the highest authorities" in China.

Worryingly, there's a growing suspicion within the military establishment that the intruding Chinese soldiers may hold on to Indian territory for quite some time, "if not permanently."
We have said that here for quite sometime now. The GoI was like an ostrich. If we do not understand China, we can never effectively deal with them. I am sure that GoI bureaucrats at least have an institutional memory and know the Chinese intentions very well, but political dimwits certainly have no idea at all. They may not even listen to bureaucrats. They certainly do not listen to the military as we know quite well.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Singha »

SSridhar wrote:Singha, AFAIK, there is no motorable road. The trade route from Nubra Valley to KK Pass passes through Sasser Pass and then DBO.
thanks. I got that impression too from the trekking links I found yesterday...its a mule track over the KK pass down to dbo and on via depsang to burtse where the "uninvited guests" are lodged. that being said, we have probably airlifted small vehicles like 3t trucks and jeeps to get around in DBO but likely not even BMP let alone any serious armour or artillery there. its kind of like a chowkidar post in apartments to maintain a visitor log book and shoo away intruders but no real muscle.

we will lose DBO for sure to even a regiment level attack and even if we choose to defend our backs will be to the wall with few routes to feed in supplies and resources.

best soln is prepare for a high intensity air campaign and lets see where the cheen can hide in aksai chin if push came to shove. one find morning, after a last warning, withdraw our boys and wipe the slate clean or maybe drop a couple of tons bombs around 100m away and give them 1 hr to run tails between legs to the border.

work with khan to lay in more supplies of SFW units quietly from FMS stocks. khan always has 1000s of ready use units in stock.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

shyamd wrote:AKA says talks won't resolve this issue incursion and is in favour of using force. Khurshid says lets try diplomacy. Both at odds
shyamd, I am OK with that provided it is all for external consumption and internally they have a plan to deal with the situation as it demands. The trouble is that past history does not inspire confidence under the incumbent leadership.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

Singha, AN32s have landed at DBO after it was renovated recently.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Anand K »

Singha wrote:Delhi looks for ways not to offend visiting leaders
beijing looks for ways to offend visiting leaders
They tested that multi-megaton H-Bomb when President Venkataraman was touring Beijing..... And they (apparently) tried to humiliate Nehru with that Kashmir Princess trick right before the Bandung Summit.

BTW, the MoD and MoS responses are as per standard SOP..... MoD needs to be the hawk face and the MoS needs to be the peacemaker. On that note I hope AKA has a hidden mean streak which will make him knot the mundu in one flawless move and deliver a solid muttukettal (knee-in-the-b@lls) to Shee-Didn't-Ping.

PS: Any massed armor heavy attacks on DBO have to be funneled through well known routes right? In that part of the world any armor-mechanized thrust (either ways) is highly vulnerable to arty/mud-movers/mijjiles, no?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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SSridhar wrote: shyamd, I am OK with that provided it is all for external consumption and internally they have a plan to deal with the situation as it demands. The trouble is that past history does not inspire confidence under the incumbent leadership.
We both know war is last resort. Going to war is not a decision any govt takes lightly (maybe the commies & pakis can send people to their death easily but fortunately we are not) - the current govt are doing what any govt in power would do - talk and prepare for a war. Preparations have already started.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

shyamd, I am not saying that we should launch a war as soon as some incursion is detected and flag-meetings have failed. You know my position well, I assume. However, repeated talks have made little impression on the Chinese to manage tranquility on the border even while talks continue towards resolution of the 'core' issue 'left over from history' (to cite the usual Chinese reference to the border issue). We have three agreements between India and PRC, 1993 agreement (Narasimha Rao), 1996 agreement (Vajpayee) and 2012 agreement (Man Mohan Singh). They were meant to calm the situation along the LAC, establish a mechanism to avoid exactly situations like this, build confidence etc. The PLA now demands that certain fortifications by the IA must be removed, night patrols called off, tailing the Chinese patrols stopped etc. These are exactly the kind of demands which should have come under these three agreements and discussed through appropriate channels and resolved. The most recent 2012 agreement, ‘Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs’, has fallen flat on its face and bitten the dust. After signing the agreement in Beijing, the Chinese Foreign Minister, Yang Jeichi said that both countries wanted to enhance trust. Intruding 15 Kms into Indian territory is not exactly one of the ways to 'enhance trust'. There have been countless other intrusions, and airspace violations, tailing IN warships and warning them on international waters etc. The Special Representatives of the two sides have met nearly 18 times and we see only aggressive actions by the PLA all along the LAC.

Along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the Chinese road and infrastructure construction activity is going at a feverish pace without any objection from the Indian side. On the other hand, China objected to a shed being constructed by the J&K government at Demchok in Ladakh and GoI asked J&K government to stop all construction activities in November 2010. This has led to a stoppage of all rural development projects such as house and road construction here. On July 13, 2011, the Chinese soldiers damaged a 250-metre long wall erected by India in the disputed area near Tawang in Arunachal. The Chinese soldiers came across to the particular part of Yangtze where India has a wind-breaker wall, stretching for almost 250 metres, and damaged it. The wall, which is a few feet tall and from behind which Indian soldiers carry out occasional monitoring, is an old structure. The around 250-metre long wall is made up of large stones put loosely on each other and provides protection to Indian soldiers from icy winds during patrol. In January, 2012, the Indian Army Chief described this act by the PLA as a ‘childish act’ . There have also been at least a couple of instances in the summer of 2011 when the Chinese soldiers tried to drive through the disputed area manned by Indian troops in the Finger Area in northern Sikkim.

By looking at PRC's behaviour with all its neighbours (except Pakistan where there is a subservient GoP that immediately accedes to every Chinese demand on territory), we know it is China's policy to relentlessly and incrementally occupy their territory even while proclaiming a 'peacefully rising China'.

India should have known by now that PRC is untrustworthy; it has a deep and sinister agenda wrt India; and India should always be on guard. While talks are a must, GoI must have retaliated elsewhere along the 3500 Km long LAC at a place of our choice. If this was not possible at all, then it means that GoI were sleeping all the while and not taking enough interest in India's external security. Nobody says it is an either-or kind of situation and only war is the immediate next step. Does China want war by intruding ? I am sure it does not, not at this stage anyhow. But, it knows that spongy India will absorb anything and not lift its little finger other than making pious protestations. This is a perception we *MUST* change and change quickly. Remember that the Senkaku island issue, which was at least as explosive as this or the earlier one of Japan Maritime Defense capturing a Chinese boat did not lead to a war. We seem to be eternally hoping that somehow better sense would prevail over our two viscerally inimical neighbours at which stage we can dismantle our armed forces ! We want them to hold ground only until then. Is that our doctrine ?
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