Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

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shiv
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

devesh wrote: entire swaths of Indian territory will become "no go" zones, if the call for Jihad is announced and put into action. I hope I am wrong, but my brain tells me I might not be.
Oh OK. Anyhow I disagree. I don't think things are going to pan out as per your prediction. Doesn't look that way to me at all from where I sit.

Since it is OT I have posted a question here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1257575
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote
Islamic power structures are designed so that the biggest goon/thug can get away with any behavior by intimidation. The mango Muslim has to bow his head to sharia. He does not have to enjoy it. He just has to do it. Islamic rules are about compulsion. Not about enjoying it. People who claim that all Muslims enjoy and revel in following every aspect of sharia are attributing non human characteristics to Muslims. The "joke" that follows from this is "Ha ha ha, muslims are inhuman monsters" The leaders of all Islamic countries and societies can be drinkers and womanizers but no citizen of an islamic nation can ask that person to conform to sharia. Such is the hypocrisy that islam allows. In Islam power means that you get the enjoyment and excess you want, but your subjects must follow sharia and kafirs are slaves/wazbull-cattle.
I think a lot of this impression that ruler and goons in Islam can do things which are not Sharia approved - comes from non-aquaintance with the sharia itself and the three or four main jurisprudential schools based on its interpretations.

Sharia does not rule out womanizing. A man can enjoy any woman in his "posession", except those considered incestuous or taboo either by blood kinship or pseudo-blood kinship [like milk-"mother"]. Women where "islam" has not yet been "established" or women of the non-muslim are free to be enjoyed whenever they fall in "muslim" hands.

What you could have said is that the more powerful among Muslims can use the sharia better for their enjoyments than the powerless Muslim. For example, the concept of compulsory marriage with a new husband and its sexual consummation of a talaq-ed wife - before the wife can be married again by the ex-husband. This has often been used by powerful Muslims [the precedence was set by the founder himself] to appropriate the wife of a less powerful Muslim. But in doing so the powerful Muslim was not going against the sharia.

Or the concept of marriage of a widow anytime after 3 months of husband's death. So More powerful muslims could create a widow of a less powerful Muslim and marry her. Even the 3 months of iddat [observation period to ensure pregnancy status of the widow] can be waived by a porecedence recognized in all interpretations of the sharia - that of the founder's own enjoyment of a woman at night, whom he had made a widow the very same day [tortured and killed the husband in front of the wife and her two cousins].

I am not going into the alcohol/drinks and other taboo's like homosexual forays. We can show that even here more powerful Muslims can get by - through - and without violating sharia.

These extra-enjoyments need extra resources, armies, wealth, and influence to be satisfied, and hence more powerful Muslims can enjoy them more than the less powerful Muslims - but it is a wrong concept to imagine that those enjoyments are against sharia.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: These extra-enjoyments need extra resources, armies, wealth, and influence to be satisfied, and hence more powerful Muslims can enjoy them more than the less powerful Muslims - but it is a wrong concept to imagine that those enjoyments are against sharia.
Brihaspati - some of these things are a matter of judgement. Neither you nor I are mullahs and if we were we would probably disagree.

Any damn thing can be justified in islam and called "Sharia" if you have power. Sharia itself is not rigid except for certain fundamental crimes. Islam allows the powerful to have a good time. But it would be wrong to say that the less powerful and the really weak are actually enjoying sharia so much that they love it and need it. I am certain that a huge percentage of Muslims are following sharia like lives only because they will be punished if they don't. Not because the enjoy it. Muslims have, among them a huge percentage of pretenders who act as if the absurd rules they are supposed to follow are both good and enjoyable.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote:
brihaspati wrote: These extra-enjoyments need extra resources, armies, wealth, and influence to be satisfied, and hence more powerful Muslims can enjoy them more than the less powerful Muslims - but it is a wrong concept to imagine that those enjoyments are against sharia.
Brihaspati - some of these things are a matter of judgement. Neither you nor I are mullahs and if we were we would probably disagree.

Any damn thing can be justified in islam and called "Sharia" if you have power. Sharia itself is not rigid except for certain fundamental crimes. Islam allows the powerful to have a good time. But it would be wrong to say that the less powerful and the really weak are actually enjoying sharia so much that they love it and need it. I am certain that a huge percentage of Muslims are following sharia like lives only because they will be punished if they don't. Not because the enjoy it. Muslims have, among them a huge percentage of pretenders who act as if the absurd rules they are supposed to follow are both good and enjoyable.
Yes, but we are talking of different things. I am saying that all the other enjoyments which you think the powerless Muslim cannot enforce denial on the powerful Muslim - are actually not against the sharia. The powerless Muslim would also be able to enjoy them if they had the resources - manpower and wealth - to support those enjoyments.

You are saying that the common Muslim is forced to not enjoy those enjoyments because they are prevented by application of sharia. You are partially correct - but it stems from the lack of knowledge of sharia and its jurisprudential history, in the common Muslim - since they are processed through an educational system that reserves the details and the loopholes for the trained mullah onlee, who of course will conditionally ally with the rich and the powerful.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: You are saying that the common Muslim is forced to not enjoy those enjoyments because they are prevented by application of sharia. You are partially correct - but it stems from the lack of knowledge of sharia and its jurisprudential history, in the common Muslim - since they are processed through an educational system that reserves the details and the loopholes for the trained mullah onlee, who of course will conditionally ally with the rich and the powerful.
What I am implying actually goes well beyond that.

There is an unspoken allegation that is insidiously pushed on BRF that Islam has such an addictive grip on its followers that it constitutes an unstoppable force with everyone lovin' it so much that they will do anything to stick on.

Without arguing against that allegation, I would like to know how a population of people who are basically being forced to follow idiotic rules by a system that reserves the best for an elite are feared to be an unstoppable force. At one time in history, when Islamic invaders were militarily superior and were overrunning lands, gathering enough loot and women for everyone to enjoy, the attraction of joining Islam and partaking of that loot would have been understandable.

No such situation exists today. Muslims are mostly pretending to enjoy the restrictions even as they use sexy movie/TV scenes and the internet to wank off and fantasize things disallowed to them in the name of Islam. The point I am making today is that calling Islam an unstoppable force of loyal people waiting to take over the world is a bogey. It is a run down force of people who are decidedly not enjoying themselves save for some pleasure a few get by killing kafirs. They are being held back by their own religion and cannot even complain. Many of the over hyped fears are bogus.

Islamists are a danger. Yes. Comparing them to an unstoppable Orc-like force is a bogus claim.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

Modern world is clashing with the Islamic world big time
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

At a desi party met a Paki with own hip flask as he wasnt sure he would be accomodated at the host's place.

Same place there was desi Shia, who found out about the flask and gave him a lecture on injunctions in the book etc.

From then on the Paki carries his drink in an opaque glass and asks to be given fair warning if the other guy would be gracing the occassion.

What Bji is saying is Sharia gives the powers to anyone who wants to enforce it.
Throughout history many Sultans got cutleted due to not following the shariat.

Even Zawahri had declared the original preacher of OBL's gang as not following the book. Soon after the guy got w-el-q in 1989.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote: What I am implying actually goes well beyond that.

There is an unspoken allegation that is insidiously pushed on BRF that Islam has such an addictive grip on its followers that it constitutes an unstoppable force with everyone lovin' it so much that they will do anything to stick on.

Without arguing against that allegation, I would like to know how a population of people who are basically being forced to follow idiotic rules by a system that reserves the best for an elite are feared to be an unstoppable force. At one time in history, when Islamic invaders were militarily superior and were overrunning lands, gathering enough loot and women for everyone to enjoy, the attraction of joining Islam and partaking of that loot would have been understandable.

No such situation exists today. Muslims are mostly pretending to enjoy the restrictions even as they use sexy movie/TV scenes and the internet to wank off and fantasize things disallowed to them in the name of Islam. The point I am making today is that calling Islam an unstoppable force of loyal people waiting to take over the world is a bogey. It is a run down force of people who are decidedly not enjoying themselves save for some pleasure a few get by killing kafirs. They are being held back by their own religion and cannot even complain. Many of the over hyped fears are bogus.
It bothers us little as to whether followers inside of Islam are getting their fair share of enjoyments or not. What matters is what are those enjoyments which are promised by the text? Whether one must take an obligatory ghusl after physical relations or not at the middle of the night could be a serious internal matter of Islam - or say whether to use a piece of rock to wipe off after urination or use something softer - and if you are going to zoom in on to that and say that the ordinary Muslim is forced to use a rock because of sharia and he doesn't enjoy it at all, there could be immense sociological significance in this.

But what is more significant is that over and above all that nitty-gritty - is there hope drilled into the common Muslim that if the qaffir can be conquered there will be more of the pleasures that really matter - material comforts and luxuries, power over slaves, and captive women to enjoy?

That hope - and the guaranteed freedom from guilt in muder, genocide, rape and loot - as sanctioned by divine authority, is the most powerful stimulant and attraction. You do not know then as to what motivates the movements of large groups of people if you say mere restrictions of the present prevents eventual convergence towards genocidic adventures. Islamism has ample ammunition in its core texts to free the Mumeen from guilt on issues of genocide, rape, slavery and loot - that is rarely matched if not entirely non-existent on all these issues simultaneously, in any other theology.
Islamists are a danger. Yes. Comparing them to an unstoppable Orc-like force is a bogus claim.
[/quote]

As long as the texts are not deconstructed, delgimtimized, and the continuity of Islamic education and preaching is not broken - yes the potential generation for Orc-like forces cannot be ruled out. The problem is - denying the possibility works out as total loss by even rudimentary decision theory.

Consider a version of Pascal's Wager :

Non-Muslim approach \Islamism can be | future Orc | future non-Orc
----------------------------------------------------------------
deny and dont prepare | -infinity[==destruction] | 0[== no loss no profit]
dont deny and prepare | infinity[no destruction] | infinite [== no destruction]

Only way this "wager" can be problemtaizes is if infinite value is not placed on existence by the particular non-Muslim culture, and/or costs of preparation are seen to comparable or more than the value assigned to existence. This latter case happens with predominance of mercantile mentality - which will immediately grimace at the prospect of having to part with parts of the personal nafa and reliquish that nafa towards preparation. Or those for whom existence indpoendently with ones' own culture and knowledge base is sort of trivial or valueless.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by krisna »

The Islamic World's Quiet Revolution
Throughout the ummah (the Arabic term for the global Muslim community), the average number of children born to women is falling dramatically. (Apoorva Shah and I examine the evidence in detail here.) According to the UN's Population Division, all Muslim-majority countries and territories witnessed fertility declines over the past three decades. To be sure, in some extremely high-fertility countries of sub-Saharan Africa (think Sierra Leone, Mali, Somalia, and Niger), declines have been modest. And in the handful of Muslim countries where a fertility transition had already brought childbearing down to around three births per woman by the late 1970s (think Soviet Kazakhstan), subsequent declines have also been limited. But in the great majority of the rest, declines in the total fertility rate have been jaw-dropping.
Image
Holding income and literacy constant, Muslim-majority countries actually seem to have significantly lower fertility levels than non-Muslim ones. Thus, despite more limited use of modern contraception (prevalence levels are approximately 11 percentage points lower than in non-Muslim countries, all else held equal), the ummah is looking ever more like other population groupings when it comes to fertility. To put it another way, where Muslim women want fewer children, they are increasingly finding ways to manage it -- with the pill or without it.
Indeed, the standard measures of development simply don't explain all the great demographic changes underway outside the mature, industrialized countries. In particular, proponents of purely material models of development are confronted by the awkward fact that the fertility decline over the past generation has been more rapid in the Arab states than virtually anywhere else on earth. Yet few people disagree that those same countries have exceptionally poor development records over the same period.

For over a generation, bien pensants in the international community have been sagely informing us that "development is the best pill." If this were really true, however, the great Middle Eastern fertility revolution could never have taken place. A new world is, quite literally, being born before our eye -- and we would all do well to pay much closer attention to its significance.
More on this in fertilty decline in muslim world PDF

worth a read. has lot of graphs and easy readability. about 28 pages.
Of course the majority of muslims are in non muslim world now. Biggest chunk in Indian subcontinent and elsewhere.
In all, eight countries today account for over 60% of the world’s Muslim population: Indonesia; Pakistan; India;
Bangladesh; Egypt, Nigeria, Iran and Turkey.
Note that only one of these eight is an Arab society in
the Middle East.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by tejas »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Nll6Y5iqbM

This guy Pat Condell deserves a Nobel Prize.
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Post by akashganga »

krisna wrote:The Islamic World's Quiet Revolution

worth a read. has lot of graphs and easy readability. about 28 pages.
Of course the majority of muslims are in non muslim world now. Biggest chunk in Indian subcontinent and elsewhere.
In all, eight countries today account for over 60% of the world’s Muslim population: Indonesia; Pakistan; India;
Bangladesh; Egypt, Nigeria, Iran and Turkey.
Note that only one of these eight is an Arab society in
the Middle East.
The danger for us is big birthrates of muslims in India. At this rate just by penis jehad muslim population will overtake hindu population in 100 years and indian civilization will be finished.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

The world's quiet revolution:
Not sure. Figure 11 for example shows obvious clustering at the higher urbanization end, and possibly more than one non-linear trends. There is obviously much higher variability at the lower urbanization level. This would ideally require a model that has a scaled variance component. But the fact that the lower envelope of the graph is practically straight with a slow increaseing trend at the higher urbanization end - while the upper envelope decreases - indicates one possibility being a superimposition of two or more components [one independent of and the other dependent on urbanization].

The heavier cluster at the higher end of urbanization problematizes the regression too.


But apart from that a long suspected and much controversial theory is that in-breeding reduces fecundity. If the theory is true [it does seem to hold out in well-known "nobility" where polygamy was not allwoed - as per European and Indian historical experience].

In a Muslim majority country with smaller initial gene pool - lack of fresh genes from non-Muslims - may lead to "in-breeding" effects. In a non-Muslim majority, there is the possibility of fresh blood by conversion and cooption of non-Muslim women. For this theory of a possible genetic suppression due to inbreeding : look at for example, "Inbreeding Effects on Fertility in Humans: Evidence for Reproductive Compensation" by Ober, Hyslop and Hauck. [AJHG, 1999].
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

krisna, Did they look at cancer rates too at the same time as lower fertility rates?
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Post by krisna »

ramana wrote:krisna, Did they look at cancer rates too at the same time as lower fertility rates?
No, however I will try to dig some more data soon. It is rather surprising as common knowledge is high fertility amongst muslims.
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Post by krisna »

^^^^
comparing the world to middle east and north africa, south asia and sub saharan africa regions.

the fertlilty rates are still higher for muslim world relative to world.
IOW the population of muslim are still growing relative to world.
However the dramatic decline is wrt to muslim society itself over a period of time. Some countries showing much more decline wrt others- ex- Iran and Oman etc.-- This is what the post is showing about.


Considering the above, the western society/developed world is losing its population.
here are the graphs-
fertility rates
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: As long as the texts are not deconstructed, delgimtimized, and the continuity of Islamic education and preaching is not broken - yes the potential generation for Orc-like forces cannot be ruled out. The problem is - denying the possibility works out as total loss by even rudimentary decision theory.
I get the sense that if Islam was a sentient being, it would be laughing at all these ideas of "deconstruction" and "delegitimization" of texts because the system has seen off all attempts at such things for 1300 years. It has evolved to survive and not be "delegitimized" merely by people who disagree.

One does not have to look very far to find people who see moderation in islam. Telling them that what they call moderation is not moderation does not work. Only killing is recognized as extremism. Everyone agrees that killing must stop, but beyond that anyone who does not kill is a moderate.

The system that has evolved over 1300 years is cleverer than individuals or groups of individuals who are opposed to it. Denying this is also a problem. The system has a two pronged approach. one is extreme bestial violence as a right. Stopping that violence leaves behind a system that also spread in the absence of violence.

As long as the violence continues, most people cannot be bothered about worrying about non violent spread like penis jihad. The violence must stop. When violence is "legitimate" - stopping violence is delegitimization. Most people will not even understand what is happening until the violence is stopped. In the current scenario anything that is not violent is "moderate" and it requires convoluted explanations like you have made to show why that is wrong. No one actually understands that.

Also it does not help to imagine that the West with its Christianist ethos and history is somehow going to be of some use in delegitimization and deconstrcuction. They are guilty of the same things as islam.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by krisna »

^^^^
continuing with Indian subcontinent--
fertility rates in Indian subcontinent

Bangladesh and Maldives are below world average.
Af-pak region above world average comfortably.
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Post by brihaspati »

Actually we should all have a good laugh at the thought of sentient(if) texts having a laugh at our expense. It would be a very stupid text indeed that thinks "deconstruction" is mere opposition by words.

The first step in allowing deconstruction and deligitimization is stopping the rashtra from protecting the texts from free analysis and critique. Where the rashtra did not protect the text - the text had a very short life indeed.

Why the rashtra protects the texts? Because the rashtra takes seriously the panicked voice of those who see bloodbath if a mere critique of the text is allowed. Not all rashtra of course in the past did take it seriously - as in many European countries in the pre-20th century stages. But rashtras like India perhaps have deeper interests in protecting the text - which is more about maintaining political fractures and preventing unification of majority on a basis that is independent of personal and dynastic control.

Now of course when any deconstruction or deligitimization is attempted - even by mere words - all those who need to desperately protect the texts, from the faith or outside the faith - will immediately show their fangs and show that the text is after all, all about direct physical coercion. Which of course immediately takes it beyond mere words - and we will have to create the peaceful conditions for peaceful critique by merely words - by defeating the physically coercive protective forces.

I am sure every theology thought that it will have the last laugh - from the Pharaonic and Sumerain to Judaic to Buddhist and Christianity to Islam, and that they would last forever. Many theologies have bitten the dust. Many were wiped off in a final coercive countermove.

What makes this theology exceptional? We are just waiting for it and its protectors to react violently to criticism. If it can wait for generations we will wait life after life until no trace of it remains.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by devesh »

http://southbengalherald.blogspot.in/20 ... rl-in.html

Islamists molest Hindu girl in Madhyakolra in public; Hindus fuming
The village of Madhyakolra, located in the jurisdiction of P.S. Domjur, District: Howrah, Indian state of Bengal, is once more in flames and as fresh reports are coming in the entire area is being guarded by RAF owing to an untoward development – molestation of an 18 year old Hindu girl by a group of Islamists today in the evening.

It has been learnt, the innocent girl, in the evening, was delighting in Fuchka in the local market area when the aforementioned Muslim ruffians, roving like a pack of mad dogs in search of Hindu girls always, got hold of him. They snatched her dupatta (accessory of Churidar) all of a sudden and when she endeavored to resist them, the goons simply pounced on her. And as a part of grievous molestation her clothing was ripped.

Hindus youths, present there, protested against this outrageous act right away and this protest was followed by a violent attack of the same Islamists on them. Hindu youths also defended and finding it too difficult to overpower Hindus there, Islamists signaled their co-religionists and soon a large violent mob of Islamists gathered there. Without more ado, they started knocking Hindus.

Hindus, in throngs, also gathered soon and what followed was nothing other than a ghastly battle between two communities (at daggers drawn for more than a millennium).

Incidentally (prior to this report), the village was in news - owing to a steep onslaught of local Muslims, led by Bangladeshi Muslim infiltrators, on Hindus as regards a pond.

See http://southbengalherald.blogspot.in/20 ... cuted.html

A painstaking study of the situation (then) by this scribe and his colleagues discerned harrowing experiences of Hindus (reeling under great pains for violent attacks of Islamists). An official complaint was lodged to the local police and administration but apart from verbal assurances nothing was perceptible virtually.

And what has happened today is beyond the imagination of any sane individual.

Without doubt, it can easily be discerned had the administration been active to restrain Islamists such a shocking incident could have been avoided. Not to speak of Islamists, administration must also be put on the dock for such an untoward development.

What is going to be the fate of Hindus of Madhyakolra then? Was the faith of Hindus on the legal system of India the greatest fault?

Have the legal institutions in Bengal ceased to exist or whether Hindus must regroup like the days of partition in 1947 to save themselves?

Hindus demand an answer straight away. Administration must realize that everything has a limit and Hindus’ patience is not infinite.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

X Posted from the Islamic Sectarianism thread.

Green on Green intra Mohammadden violence in Australia where Mohammaddens belonging to the Shia sect and Alevi subsect are victims of religious inspired violence perpetrated by their co-religionists:

Petrol-bomb attack on religious group
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by krisna »

ramana wrote:krisna, Did they look at cancer rates too at the same time as lower fertility rates?
I am not able to find out cancer rates except for khanate.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

krisna wrote:^^^^
continuing with Indian subcontinent--
fertility rates in Indian subcontinent

Bangladesh and Maldives are below world average.
Af-pak region above world average comfortably.
The BD stats are hotly disputed even inside. We will need to wait until all the national id and stuff is completed. But even then current registration of births might be severely underreported and out-migration is heavily underreported.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

Edict passed by a prominent Mohammadden cleric calling for death of Bashar Assad. Hardly an event that promotes the image of a religion peace :roll: :

Egyptian cleric issues death fatwa against Al Assad
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:
What makes this theology exceptional?
Let me state my thoughts on this.

It is exceptional because it has learned from and built upon the weaknesses of an earlier similar theology. It has "plugged the holes" as it were. It has made violence and coercion legitimate both against its own followers and others. The only concession made to its own followers is a share of loot and support in violence against others in exchange for absolute obedience on pain of death.

I have always felt that delegitimization of violence will have to be the first step. Funnily enough there is some empirical evidence that when violence against outsiders is made difficult or inconvenient, violence against those within the group goes on merrily.

You know something about violence I believe. If you attack me with your fists, a sword in my hand will put you in some trouble. A gun in your hand would be worse for me, sword or no sword. A large mob with guns on my side would take care of you and your gun. But a cannon or machinegun in your hands would get my mob. A tank in my hands would still get you and your cannon. An air force with you would see off my tanks.

The effectiveness of violence backed by ideology is graded by the effectiveness of weaponry. If violence must be checked, the weaponry must be limited or degraded. If you look at Islamic extremism as a borderless phenomenon one of the biggest hurdles is the effectiveness of weaponry. It is totally misguided to ignore that while concentrating on theological details. I am not implying that you are ignoring that, but I would be grateful not to be told that I am ignoring the ideology. Both approaches are needed.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

krisna wrote:
ramana wrote:krisna, Did they look at cancer rates too at the same time as lower fertility rates?
I am not able to find out cancer rates except for khanate.
Are those countries urbanizing, industrializing, have women in workforce?
We can follow-up in GDF.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by SRoy »

BJi

The RoP followers rioted yesterday in Kolkata. In Park Circus to be precise.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by darshhan »

SRoy wrote:BJi

The RoP followers rioted yesterday in Kolkata. In Park Circus to be precise.
This is becoming a regular feature in WB now.Infact it has only become worse during TMC rule.To Bengal watchers I have a question.What are Bengali Hindus thinking as of now and how will they react to these instances? And how can we(Dharmics) help them ?
KLNMurthy
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by KLNMurthy »

shiv wrote:
Any damn thing can be justified in islam and called "Sharia" if you have power. Sharia itself is not rigid except for certain fundamental crimes. Islam allows the powerful to have a good time. But it would be wrong to say that the less powerful and the really weak are actually enjoying sharia so much that they love it and need it. I am certain that a huge percentage of Muslims are following sharia like lives only because they will be punished if they don't. Not because the enjoy it. Muslims have, among them a huge percentage of pretenders who act as if the absurd rules they are supposed to follow are both good and enjoyable.
The picture you present--less powerful muslim resenting the more powerful muslim's sharia-derived fun but going along with sharia only out of helplessness--is at odds with how such things work in real life.

In the real world, if he is passive, the less powerful guy can bask in reflected glory because he shares a bond of islam and sharia with the fun-having guy. If he is more dynamic, then the fun-haver serves as an inspiration, with islam and shariat as the pathway for achievement of fun.
brihaspati
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
What makes this theology exceptional?
Let me state my thoughts on this.

It is exceptional because it has learned from and built upon the weaknesses of an earlier similar theology. It has "plugged the holes" as it were. It has made violence and coercion legitimate both against its own followers and others. The only concession made to its own followers is a share of loot and support in violence against others in exchange for absolute obedience on pain of death.

I have always felt that delegitimization of violence will have to be the first step. Funnily enough there is some empirical evidence that when violence against outsiders is made difficult or inconvenient, violence against those within the group goes on merrily.

You know something about violence I believe. If you attack me with your fists, a sword in my hand will put you in some trouble. A gun in your hand would be worse for me, sword or no sword. A large mob with guns on my side would take care of you and your gun. But a cannon or machinegun in your hands would get my mob. A tank in my hands would still get you and your cannon. An air force with you would see off my tanks.

The effectiveness of violence backed by ideology is graded by the effectiveness of weaponry. If violence must be checked, the weaponry must be limited or degraded. If you look at Islamic extremism as a borderless phenomenon one of the biggest hurdles is the effectiveness of weaponry. It is totally misguided to ignore that while concentrating on theological details. I am not implying that you are ignoring that, but I would be grateful not to be told that I am ignoring the ideology. Both approaches are needed.
My question was put - in the context of the following passage - which implied that I do not think of this particular theology as exceptional. It only refined the use of the concept of blasphemy that had its discernible roots in Egyptian theology, where any critique of the divine had to be crushed [since the divine was inseprably mixed up with the imperial authority]. Its quite plausible as comparisons show - that the methods were copied to a great extent by whatever cult transitioned out of the Egyptian ones into the deserts of Sinai.

But the main point of concern for me is the practical organizational or mass mobilizational aspect of an issue. The crux of the problem is - how do we bring the situation to a point where masks have to be shed, fangs bared, and the real dispositions publicly and visibly exposed throwing away the pretensions of peace, militancy onlee in defence, etc?

As you suggest this particular theological institutional organization has managed to be very very clever in how it presents its theory of violence and coercion. More than themselves, its their protectors in not-yet-Islamic-dominated societies from the non-Islamic fraction - who prevent discussions and exposures of the coercive nature on various excuses, usually formally by portraying the possibbility of bloodbath [which many of them now realize is self-defeating as a protection tool, as the Rushdie fiasco showed], or by trying to construct a mythical and completely detached "extremist" which is sort of dropped from the sky and totally disconnected from the pure theology.

Its the virtual alliance between non-Muslim protectors, and the theological institutional organization strategies - that makes the issue so difficult. In all such cases any call for racial-counter-propaganda to bring internal divisions, or proposing counter-coercion measures, will fail because neither of them will have any concrete focal point that can be used in reality.

What needs to be done is what I refer to as the Dandi-March moment. One has to have an issue that forces all pretenders to choose sides and come out openly in support of their agenda or pets. Open critiques and discussions [even discussions can be impeccably "neutral" while intensely cutting to appropriate sensitivities] of the theology will immediately bring out all those who protect Islamism from outside the community as well as mullahcracy and their support groups. At the moment they are trying to do this legally and bring in a blasphemy law through the backdoor. But this is what needs to be fought. In fact any critique will bring up violence and coercion from Islamists and their non-Muslim protectors and apologists. This is what the greater mass of populations need to see - who stands for what. This is to stamp the theologian and the institutions with coercion as the primary characteristic. Only then can we start thinking of delegitimizing violence in the theology - for without the majority supporting and realizing that the theology is all and only about coercion, no delegitimization of the violent part is possible.

The ideological fight comes before. That prepares the ground for greater support and mobilization against the institutions. Only whan that base is prepared we can get rid of the violence.
tejas
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by tejas »

Ramana, inbreeding basically allows build up of recessive genes most of which need to be present in pairs ( i.e. from both mother and father) to be expressed. Thus congenital malformations are the major manifestation ( deafness, cardiac malformations, bowel anomalies). There is also a strong association with reduced IQ in these populations. Some tumors although in theory may be slightly increased in incidence would not be the main manifestation of inbreeding.
member_19686
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

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Armed Islamist group claims control in northeast Mali
AFP – Tue, Mar 20, 2012

An Islamist group led by a Tuareg rebel fighting for autonomy in northern Mali claimed control Tuesday of the country's vast northeast, while also vowing to free dozens of prisoners.
"Thanks to God, we have (the region) under our control," the group Ancar Dine said in a statement sent to AFP. "Our soldiers of God occupy the towns of Tinezawaten, Tessalit, Aguelhok, and we will soon have other victories.
"Whoever doesn't agree must leave our territory," the group added, saying also that it would free, then expel from the area, at least 110 civilian and military prisoners it claimed to be holding.
Malian government officials provided no immediate comment on the claim.
The area said to be under Ancar Dine control is a sprawling swath of desert in the poor sub-Saharan country, close to the Algerian border.
Ancar Dine, 'Defenders of Islam' in Arabic, was created by Iyad Ag Ghaly, one of the most prominent figures of a Tuareg rebellion in the 1990s.

He is thought to have links with a branch of Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, a splinter group which is led by his cousin Hamada Ag Hama.
Ancar Dine wants the imposition of Sharia, or Islamic law, across Mali.

Tuareg rebels -- many of whom recently returned from fighting for fallen Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi after his death -- in mid-January struck up their decades-old battle for autonomy for their nomadic desert tribe.
Ancar Dine said it had contacted members of the Islamic High Council of Mali to come to the region to collect the prisoners. An official from the council confirmed he had received a message from Ancar Dine.
The council is acting as an intermediary between Ancar Dine and the government.
The United Nations has said tens of thousands of people have been displaced by fighting between Tuareg rebels and the army.

http://news.yahoo.com/armed-islamist-gr ... 04447.html
Singha
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Singha »

france runs to ground the paratrooper/jew killer, another pakistan alumni
http://news.yahoo.com/3-blasts-outside- ... 35888.html
shiv
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

KLNMurthy wrote:
shiv wrote:
Any damn thing can be justified in islam and called "Sharia" if you have power. Sharia itself is not rigid except for certain fundamental crimes. Islam allows the powerful to have a good time. But it would be wrong to say that the less powerful and the really weak are actually enjoying sharia so much that they love it and need it. I am certain that a huge percentage of Muslims are following sharia like lives only because they will be punished if they don't. Not because the enjoy it. Muslims have, among them a huge percentage of pretenders who act as if the absurd rules they are supposed to follow are both good and enjoyable.
The picture you present--less powerful muslim resenting the more powerful muslim's sharia-derived fun but going along with sharia only out of helplessness--is at odds with how such things work in real life.

In the real world, if he is passive, the less powerful guy can bask in reflected glory because he shares a bond of islam and sharia with the fun-having guy. If he is more dynamic, then the fun-haver serves as an inspiration, with islam and shariat as the pathway for achievement of fun.
No dispute with what you say. But I see it as an exploitable fissure that is not being exploited. It is a weakness of islam that it fails to allow the "free enjoyment" that someone else may allow himself. It is not for nothing that the Christianist Lord's Prayers says "Lead us not into Temptation", or one of the Ten Commandments is "Do not covet your neighbour's wife". Islam disallows music, dance etc because they are all temptations that may take one's mind away from God.

A constant ridiculing of the unhappy situation that the less powerful guys are in along with a constant highlighting of the fun the more powerful guys have is a useful ploy as a chronic psychological assault. It is better than reading the Quran and imagining that everyone loves and follows that to the letter. They do not. Just my views. Temptation must be provoked and fissures exposed. Please God lead me into temptation. "I am happier than you are" is a very powerful human motivator. To the other guy it translates into "Why is he happier than I am?". Conflict must be provoked.
Last edited by shiv on 22 Mar 2012 07:21, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

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Shiv's Prayer
Agnimitra
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Ottoman sultan’s grandson to get married

Following is the idea that one notices being pushed in Islamist fora. This event is being alluded to in various Turkish and expat Paki neo-Islamist circles: As long as this line of Ottoman Caliphs remains alive, the Ummah of believers say they have hope that the Awaited Master will step forward when the time is right. Gulenist Islamism is supposed to be the harbinger of the awaited Mahdi according to the believers.
arun
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

X Posted from the Islamic Sectarianism thread.

Suicide bombing in Damascus on saturday turns out to be a case of Green on Green violence with Mohammaddens of the Sunni sect claiming to have carried out attacks to avenge the claimed killing of their sect members by co-religionists belonging to the Shia sect and Alawi / Alawite sub sect:

Islamists claim Syria bombs were to 'avenge Sunnis'
shiv
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

Carl wrote:Ottoman sultan’s grandson to get married

Following is the idea that one notices being pushed in Islamist fora. This event is being alluded to in various Turkish and expat Paki neo-Islamist circles: As long as this line of Ottoman Caliphs remains alive, the Ummah of believers say they have hope that the Awaited Master will step forward when the time is right. Gulenist Islamism is supposed to be the harbinger of the awaited Mahdi according to the believers.
Some sleaze on the gent is required.
ramana
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

So Mali is a fallout of the Libyan leader's fall. The Tauregs supporting him moved bcak and launced their own violent spring.

Ancar Dine is really Ansar Deen i.e Soldiers of Faith.
tejas
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by tejas »

Image

8 year old girl Mohammad Merah grabbed by the hair and shot point blank in the head :evil:
Agnimitra
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The Death of the Coptic Pope: What Next for Egypt's Beleaguered Christians?

American teacher in Yemen shot to death for proselytizing
“It was God’s gift for the mujahedeen to kill the American Joel Shrum who was actively proselytizing under the cover of teaching in Taiz.”

Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is that terror network’s Yemen branch’s formal designation.

Chatter amongst Al Qaeda members also referred to Shrum as a “senior missionary” who was killed by “holy warriors.”

Shrum’s parents, Harrisburg, PA. residents, claimed he was in Yemen to learn Arabic and teach residents business and computer skills and not to proselytize, a sentiment echoed by an unidentified colleague in Yemen.
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