Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

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Agnimitra
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Agnimitra »

Any such show of support for Pakistan's oppressed Hindus?
London: thousands show support for Christians in Pakistan
Thousands took part in events in London on Saturday to mark the first anniversary of the assassination of Pakistan's Christian government minister Shahbaz Bhatti, and protest about the ongoing maltreatment of minorities in Pakistan.

Academics, religious leaders and political figures from across the globe joined in a vigil at the Pakistan Embassy followed by a protest at 10 Downing Street and a march from there along Whitehall to Trafalgar Square for a large rally.
akashganga
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by akashganga »

Carl wrote:Any such show of support for Pakistan's oppressed Hindus?
London: thousands show support for Christians in Pakistan
Thousands took part in events in London on Saturday to mark the first anniversary of the assassination of Pakistan's Christian government minister Shahbaz Bhatti, and protest about the ongoing maltreatment of minorities in Pakistan.

Academics, religious leaders and political figures from across the globe joined in a vigil at the Pakistan Embassy followed by a protest at 10 Downing Street and a march from there along Whitehall to Trafalgar Square for a large rally.
I am surprised nobody in India is organising demonstrations in support of Hindu oppression in Pakistan. Political parties take to streets for petty nonsensical issues. Where are the hindu political organizations?
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Agnimitra »

Another Kumari in TSP is also in the news:

Hindu Doctor says she embraced Islam of her own accord
KARACHI, March 12: A woman told a judicial magistrate on Monday that she embraced Islam without any coercion and got married of her own free will.

Dr Lata Kumari, who was allegedly abducted within the remit of the Defence police station on Feb 2 this year, recorded her statement before Judicial Magistrate (south) Hatim Aziz Solangi under Section 164 of the criminal procedure code.

She testified that her former name was Lata Kumari but after embracing Islam she changed her name to Hafsa.

She stated that she married Nadir Baig, an engineer, of her own accord under Islamic laws.

She said that the case lodged against her husband regarding her kidnapping was baseless.

The magistrate recorded her statement in the presence of her husband, who is a suspect in the case.

Earlier in the day, when the investigation officer produced the woman in court, a lawyer appeared and, claiming to be her counsel, requested the court to defer the matter.

But in the meantime, another lawyer, who was standing for the suspect, approached the court and claimed that he was also the counsel for the woman and prayed to the court to record her statement.

The court recorded the testimony after completing legal formalities when the woman said that the second lawyer was representing her.

The court also directed Mr Baig to cooperate with the police after the investigation officer complained that the suspect neither turned up nor extended cooperation in the investigation after getting interim pre-arrest bail from a sessions court.

A case (FIR 83/12) was registered under Section 365-B (kidnapping, abducting or inducing woman to compel for marriage, etc) of the Pakistan Penal Code against the accused on a complaint of the woman’s father, Dr Ramesh Kumar.
ramana
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

I posted this long ago but here again.

Hudson Institute's Center on Islam, Democracy and future of Muslim World.


Journal of Islamic Studies

Current Trends in Islamist Ideologies
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

Carl wrote:Any such show of support for Pakistan's oppressed Hindus?
London: thousands show support for Christians in Pakistan
Thousands took part in events in London on Saturday to mark the first anniversary of the assassination of Pakistan's Christian government minister Shahbaz Bhatti, and protest about the ongoing maltreatment of minorities in Pakistan.

Academics, religious leaders and political figures from across the globe joined in a vigil at the Pakistan Embassy followed by a protest at 10 Downing Street and a march from there along Whitehall to Trafalgar Square for a large rally.
The Pakistani Christians association in Britain is pretty active.

From June 2011
Pakistani Christians drum up support for their protest against blasphemy laws
The South Asian Forum (SAF) is inviting all people to join them at a peaceful protest calling for Pakistan to reform its harsh blasphemy laws.

The march is being organised by the British Pakistani Christian Association that represents Britain's estimated 8,174 Pakistani Christians of whom half are Roman Catholic. SAF, which represents South Asian Christians and is part of the Evangelical Alliance, will be helping lead the march.

Pakistani Christians Protest In London
Pakistani Christians from the AAECA (Asian, African and European Christian Alliance) protested in front of Downing Street today over the assassination of Shahbaz Bhatti the Pakistan's only Christian minister killed by the Taliban. London, UK.
Image
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

Carl wrote:Imam killed in arson attack on Belgian Shi'ite mosque

One person arrested after imam dies in Anderlecht while trying to extinguish flames from Molotov cocktails.
Turns out that the arson attack of the Mosque in Brussels which led to the death of the Mosque’s Imam was a case of Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden sectarian bloodletting :

Deadly Mosque Arson in Belgium Attributed to Sunni-Shiite Friction
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Anindya »

Slow take over of Denmark - possibly irreversible...

Muslim Gangs Terrorize Denmark
More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder.

The Muslims -- all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities -- were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6.

Police used batons and pepper spray to fend off the gang members, who were armed with an arsenal of 20 different types of weapons, including crowbars, darts, hammers, knives, screwdrivers and wooden clubs.

The trial in Glostrup involves two Pakistani immigrants accused of shooting and attempting to murder two fellow Muslims who belong to a rival gang.
....
Over the past several years, the immigrant gangs have proliferated geographically across all of Denmark. The gangs have spread south from Copenhagen to the rest of Zealand, from inner Nørrebro, to the suburbs Ishøj, Greve, Greve, and on to Køge. The gangs are also active in Albertslund, Herlev, Hillerød, Høje Gladsaxe, Hundige, Roskilde and Skovlunde, among many Danish localities....

Danish authorities estimate that each year more than 700 immigrants between the ages of 18 and 25 are choosing crime as a permanent career by joining gangs such as Black Cobra, the Black Scorpions, the Bandidos, the Bloodz, the International Club, or any other of the more than 100 gangs that are now operating in Denmark.....
...
Immigrant gangs often operate or seek refuge in so-called no-go zones that are effectively off limits to Danish authorities. These "no-go zones" involve suburbs of Copenhagen and other Danish cities that function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Muslim immigrants, areas where Danish police fear to tread.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Anindya »

Saudi Grand Mufti Calls for "Destruction of All Churches in Region"
According to several Arabic news sources, last Monday, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, declared that it is “necessary to destroy all the churches of the region.”

The Grand Mufti made his assertion in response to a question posed by a delegation from Kuwait, regarding the position of a Kuwaiti parliament member who recently called for the "removal" of churches (he later “clarified” by saying he merely meant that no churches should be built in Kuwait). The Kuwaiti delegation wanted to confirm Sharia’s position on churches.

Accordingly, the Grand Mufti “stressed that Kuwait was a part of the Arabian Peninsula, and therefore it is necessary to destroy all churches in it.”

......
Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah is not just some random Muslim hating on churches. He is the Grand Mufti of the nation that brought Islam to the world. Moreover, he is the President of the Supreme Council of Ulema [Islamic scholars] and Chairman of the Standing Committee for Scientific Research and Issuing of Fatwas. Accordingly, when it comes to what Islam teaches, his words are immensely authoritative.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by tejas »

I leave it to the gentle reader whether to laugh or to cry at religion induced disease in Qatar.

http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news ... 56617.html
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Just like to mention that the word 'phobia' is not really appropriate here. Phobia denotes a mindless, irrational fear of something, like black cats, walking under a ladder or the number 13. There's nothing irrational, and everything sensible and understandable, about concerns, apprehensions and fears about Islamism and Islamic terrorism. Particularly from India.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by akashganga »

Anindya wrote:Saudi Grand Mufti Calls for "Destruction of All Churches in Region"
According to several Arabic news sources, last Monday, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, declared that it is “necessary to destroy all the churches of the region.”

The Grand Mufti made his assertion in response to a question posed by a delegation from Kuwait, regarding the position of a Kuwaiti parliament member who recently called for the "removal" of churches (he later “clarified” by saying he merely meant that no churches should be built in Kuwait). The Kuwaiti delegation wanted to confirm Sharia’s position on churches.

Accordingly, the Grand Mufti “stressed that Kuwait was a part of the Arabian Peninsula, and therefore it is necessary to destroy all churches in it.”

......
Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah is not just some random Muslim hating on churches. He is the Grand Mufti of the nation that brought Islam to the world. Moreover, he is the President of the Supreme Council of Ulema [Islamic scholars] and Chairman of the Standing Committee for Scientific Research and Issuing of Fatwas. Accordingly, when it comes to what Islam teaches, his words are immensely authoritative.
The Grand Miufti is the most important religious leader of the islamic world. What he says is the most authentic version and so destruction called for by him is sanctioned by his religion. Al-queda also says the same thing, destruction of other religions. I wonder where the so called moderate muslims fit.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

X Posted from the TSP thread.

Enlightend Moderate Islamic Republic of Pakistan, claiming to draw on Mohammadden religious law, hands down a life sentence for burning a book.

The punishment is clearly disproportionate to the misdemenour and any recourse by Pakistan to theological justification reflects very poorly on the Mohammadden religion.:

Pakistani Muslim jailed for burning Koran
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by RCase »

^^^ How come there have been no wide spread public protests and riots when one of the locals burns a book, as opposed to an American? Why is there a differential level of protest for supposedly similar 'crime'? Is it because of the lesser status of the Kaffir that the reaction is more severe?
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

akashganga wrote: The Grand Miufti is the most important religious leader of the islamic world. What he says is the most authentic version and so destruction called for by him is sanctioned by his religion. Al-queda also says the same thing, destruction of other religions. I wonder where the so called moderate muslims fit.
If it was any other faith - we could have called it the loony fringe. But in this case we cannot do so. So we should look at it as a simple case of misinterpretation by the reporters of the pure tenets of the faith. He as the leader of ummah represents moderation itself. Is not what he is saying the moderate middle road in the faith? He is only claiming clearing of churches from the "region" - not from all over Asia or the whole world! If that is not moderation what is! [Some of the pious Caliphs might actually have had differed from him though. Anyway he is the scholar.]
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by A_Gupta »

Anti-birth-control

Oh, wait, this story is about Arizona, not Afghanistan. Anyway, the Arizona Taliban legislators want an employer to be able to fire a woman employee for using any kind of medication or device that can prevent pregnancy.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 18 Mar 2012 20:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by brihaspati »

Which major theology [with a significant number of followers] completely delinks reproduction from "carnal knowledge"? Or supports purely recreational "carnal knowledge" as not-"sin"?

The difference is about implementation. Here are legislators who want women to be fired from their jobs if they adopt contraception. Which means they ahev to put it up for debate. Which means the claim is not uncontested and even the current state of the theology has no strongly unanimous position on it - so that dissent can come from within the following itself. Which in turn means implementation has to wait even legal sanction and possible contest from higher courts and legislation.

In Taleb land - no such debate is needed. In fact debate itself can be fatal for the debater. There is no contest from within the society against the demand. There is complete practical unanimity from within the body theologic and following. It does not even need a legislature proper where it is debated - one scholar is enough to pronounce a fatwa and that becomes immediately and murderously implementable. No mere firing from jobs - literally firing with bullets or a chop with the sword. Better make it public blood sport - for all and sundry to enjoy the blood of the woman.

How similar to Arizona no doubt- after all.
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What does a proposed piece of legislation (it is not even the law yet) about contraception in Arizona (one out of 50 or so states in US) have to do with this thread?

Some people always seem to be in a hurry to do an == between Islam and other religions using any straws they can clutch onto.
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Moroccans Slam Law Allowing Rapist To Marry Victim
Women demand laws outlawing violence against women in front the Moroccan parliament in Rabat on Saturday. The protest comes a week after a 16-year-old committed suicide after being forced to marry the man who allegedly raped her.

Escape for 16-year-old Amina Filali from her marriage came in the form of a pill of rat poison she bought in the market for 60 cents.

Pressured by a conservative rural Moroccan society, a judge and her own mother to marry the man she said had raped her at 15 and then abused her for the rest of her marriage, she could only see one way out: Suicide.

"I had to marry her to him, because I couldn't allow my daughter to have no future and stay unmarried," said her mother Zohra in an interview with The Associated Press in their tiny village in northern Morocco, a week after her daughter killed herself.

The Justice Ministry suggests Filali was consenting and not a victim. But her death has called attention to — and prompted outrage over — an article in the penal code absolving the perpetrator of the rape of a minor if he marries the victim. Activists and social workers are calling for its repeal.

On Saturday in front of parliament in the capital Rabat, some 300 people waved signs and chanted slogans calling for a revised penal code that specifically outlaws violence against women.

Zohra Filali said she found her daughter being attacked in the forest after hearing she had been waylaid by a man with a knife. She immediately took her daughter to the family home of the man, who was 10 years older, and demanded they marry.

In many conservative societies, a family's honor rests with the women and intercourse outside of wedlock brings a deep shame that can only be remedied with the girl's marriage.

The practice dates back to the Old Testament and takes place in conservative or tribal parts in the Muslim world, such as Afghanistan.

In the story told by Amina's parents, it becomes clear that the mother was the primary force behind her daughter's marriage, which was then sanctioned by a judge and the law which permits underage marriages to "resolve" rape cases.

Morocco updated its family code in 2004 in a landmark improvement of the situation of women, but activists say there's still room for improvement.

In cases of rape, the burden of proof is often on the victim and if she can't prove she was attacked, a woman risks being prosecuted for debauchery.

The French version of Article 475 of the 1962 penal code says that the "kidnapper" — a term that can refer to an attacker or rapist — of a minor cannot be prosecuted if he marries his victim. The Arabic version refers to the one who "kidnaps or deceives" a minor.

Whatever the wording, the article is cited in justifying the minor's marriage.

An online petition calling for a change to the law has garnered about 3,500 signatures and a protest was held Thursday in front of the courthouse of the nearby town of Larache.

After at first remaining silent about the case, the Justice Ministry issued a statement Friday saying the judge acted correctly and followed the law in accordance with the wishes of both families and the victim.

"The victim had relations with the man who [later] married her during which she lost her virginity with her consent," said the statement, which did not address concerns about the nature of consent between a 15 and a 25-year-old.

The parents, poor farmers in Morocco's fertile coastal region, maintain Amina was raped. The Associated Press generally doesn't generally identify alleged victims of sexual abuse, but in this case her family agreed that she could be identified.

Amina's husband and his family could not be reached for comment on what happened to her.

When the family of the man at first refused to marry Amina, her mother took her to a doctor to get a medical certificate saying she had been raped.

The doctor informed Zohra that her daughter had lost her virginity earlier and did not confirm that a rape had occurred.

"She finally told me that he had first raped her more than a month ago," the mother said.

Regardless of how it happened, said her mother, a small woman in a light blue headscarf who kept her eyes downcast until the subject of the family honor came up, her daughter had to marry or her life would be over.

"We would be the laughingstock of our neighbors," she said, with a rising voice, her eyes flashing fiercely.

The societal pressures on young women are fierce in rural Morocco, where an estimated two-thirds of women are illiterate. In this village alone, four young women have attempted suicide, according to the local chapter of the Moroccan Association for Human Rights.

Two were successful, including an unwed pregnant teenager who also took rat poison.

"Women are the first victims of people's social and economic situation," said Fathiya el-Yaakoubi of the AMDH, as the human rights group is known by its French initials. "Poverty pushes families to marry off their underage girls."

She also holds the state responsible for allowing these underage marriages to take place, despite an official minimum age of 18.

Amina's father, Lahcen, was finally informed of the attack on his daughter and he went first to the nearby town of Larache and then north to the port city of Tangiers seeking justice.

There he said the prosecutor pushed them to marry his daughter to the man, whose family had finally agreed to the match, in the face of his imminent prosecution.

"I was against the marriage from the beginning, but when the state wanted to marry them, what could I do against the will of the state," said Lahcen, who has six other children ages ranging from 5 to 23.

He said at first he refused to do the paperwork, but said his wife pushed for it to be completed.

"The law allowing judges the authority to allow marriage in the case of rape has to be canceled," said el-Yaakoubi, the activist. "Marriage is not the solution for a rape, which is a crime that should be punished."

According to the mother, the forced marriage did not go well, as neither the groom nor his family, also quite poor, welcomed the new addition.

Amina lived with her unemployed husband in a small shack next to his family's home and was reportedly beaten regularly by him and his mother.

"She came home a lot because she was scared and she said they hit her," said Zohra Filali about her daughter, her composure cracking as she told the story. "I didn't tell my husband because I was hoping it would improve."

It didn't and on March 10, three and a half months after a judge authorized the marriage, Amina poisoned herself.

She lingered in the hospital for several hours and the last time her mother saw her was through a glass window when she said she was feeling better and asked for a yogurt.

Three hours later she was dead.

Amina is buried on a simple hilltop cemetery of white tombstones. Her grave is marked by a cairn of stones covered with palm fronds with a view of the beautiful rolling hills and nearby forest.

On Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, her family recited the opening verse of the Quran over her grave, breaking into tears.

"I thought she would have no future, no marriage, but now it would have been better if she had just stayed home," her mother said.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

Carl Ji,
Morocco's "legal reforms" were always dicey, and you know that there has long been a controversy about how serious the ruling regime was about such reforms - and exactly what western/European connections led to the "reforms".

Lets wait and see whether the law changes in a way that makes it impossible to "misinterpret" by the judges. I am inclined to believe that it will not change in a way that makes it impossible for the judges.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

Surasena wrote:What does a proposed piece of legislation (it is not even the law yet) about contraception in Arizona (one out of 50 or so states in US) have to do with this thread?

Some people always seem to be in a hurry to do an == between Islam and other religions using any straws they can clutch onto.

If you take Islam and Christianism side by side, you find they have more in common with each other than with Indian tradition.

While there is great awareness of the evils of Islam, any attempt to create similar awareness of what lies at the core of Christianism is opposed by many people who are quick to point out the justness of secular US laws that stand in opposition to Christianism and the absence of secular laws in Islam. As I see it, the presence of secular laws in the USA has not cowed religion down and theoology is still ready to fight secular laws, which are deemed to work oh so well in the USA.

If Christianism is deemed to be held at bay in the US by secular, liberal laws, it is the thesis of many on BRF that secular laws actually promote islamism in India. I agree with that, but they also promote Chritianism. Ultimately the presence of secular laws in the US is of no relevance to India because the suppressed Christianism of the USA is used to fund Chritianism in India. Indian secularism suppresses Hindu tradition and allows other forms of theology to have a field day. Indian secularists look up to the USA as a great secular nation with great secular laws that keep Christianism at bay and love to contrast that with Islam that does no secular taqiyya. But that is a mistake. The Christianism that lies just under the surface in the USA is as vicious as Islam.

Sorry OT.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Agnimitra »

B ji, rather than constitutional reversals, the more educated Ulema and Sufis are waiting to bridge the gap, and emotional appeals are going out to change decadent (Westernized) society. An example of what's doing the rounds from Morocco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu0ZUZCjDX0
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

Carl wrote:B ji, rather than constitutional reversals, the more educated Ulema and Sufis are waiting to bridge the gap, and emotional appeals are going out to change decadent (Westernized) society. An example of what's doing the rounds from Morocco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu0ZUZCjDX0
In the end, the experiecne of the last 500 years or so - directly shows that the educated ulema and the sufis - always converge towards the shariati position. The previous shenanigans is more about winning time and confusion space to prevent a focused opposition developing from the non-theological side.

As I quoted earlier - it is the "moderates" who ultimately ensure "funadamentalism" because they preserve the illusion of possibility of so-called moderation and dilution.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by member_19686 »

shiv wrote:
Surasena wrote:What does a proposed piece of legislation (it is not even the law yet) about contraception in Arizona (one out of 50 or so states in US) have to do with this thread?

Some people always seem to be in a hurry to do an == between Islam and other religions using any straws they can clutch onto.

If you take Islam and Christianism side by side, you find they have more in common with each other than with Indian tradition.

While there is great awareness of the evils of Islam, any attempt to create similar awareness of what lies at the core of Christianism is opposed by many people who are quick to point out the justness of secular US laws that stand in opposition to Christianism and the absence of secular laws in Islam. As I see it, the presence of secular laws in the USA has not cowed religion down and theoology is still ready to fight secular laws, which are deemed to work oh so well in the USA.

If Christianism is deemed to be held at bay in the US by secular, liberal laws, it is the thesis of many on BRF that secular laws actually promote islamism in India. I agree with that, but they also promote Chritianism. Ultimately the presence of secular laws in the US is of no relevance to India because the suppressed Christianism of the USA is used to fund Chritianism in India. Indian secularism suppresses Hindu tradition and allows other forms of theology to have a field day. Indian secularists look up to the USA as a great secular nation with great secular laws that keep Christianism at bay and love to contrast that with Islam that does no secular taqiyya. But that is a mistake. The Christianism that lies just under the surface in the USA is as vicious as Islam.

Sorry OT.
That's great and all but what does A_Gupta's post have to do with this thread?

He was attempting to score some cheap point of == by comparing a proposed legislation in Arizona about contraception with what the Taliban are doing.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

Comparisons between Christianism and Islamism are OT for this thread. Simplistic "oh they are the same" claims are problematic - and shows a lack of detailed knowledge of the evolution of the two in the memetic sense. The original roadmap of Christianism deliberately left out huge moral spaces concerning day-to-day life as vague frontiers [out of possible imperial perceptions of the need for gaps and flexibility in state policy] which Islamism had no need for to compromise on because of the much smaller tribal compass at the foundation stage.

The differences should be clear in the issues of dissent within Christianism - including the tussle right from the beginning between the literalists and the "interpreters". These issues are entirely different from the issues of fractures within Islamism.

As for formal claims of secularism being covers for discriminating between religions - yes that is mostly true. But then again it all depends on the ideological value system that is driving the secularism. Even if unstated - each state follows and has to follow an underlying ideology that guides laws, preferences, and what guides those decisions that fall in between past experiences-and written or codified laws.

For most of Anglo Saxon world - this value system is predominantly protestant Christianism - which itself therefore is based on a foundation of dissent, and has over the ages generated continuous dissent from what is. Such infinitesimal dissent leads to dilution of the main areas of convergence, and we can see very few issues on which Christianists agree - and have converged to the supreme icon onlee as the common point. Everything else is up for debate. This is facilitated by the particular formulation of the core text which leaves many issues of practical concern out. No such provision is left in Islamism - which works out to the last infintesiaml details of every act and procedure and insists that all of that are unchallengeable and directly delivered from the supreme - one way or the other.

Failure to undertsand this historical evolution brings equal equal attempts that provide wrong assessments of future trajectory.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by A_Gupta »

The point I made, it is not cheap (or expensive), it is free! You didn't pay anything for it.

The point is that Christian fundamentalism is a caged tiger; the cage is the mechanism of secular government, which Christians by and large support because they are aware of the tiger within. Islamic fundamentalism is the uncaged un-self-aware tiger. Both tigers want to digest you. The Hindu is wandering confused, doesn't know whether safety lies in the cage or outside. Getting into the cage with the tiger is just as dangerous as remaining outside with the tiger. And, he is looking only in one direction for the approaching tiger.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by member_19686 »

You can go make your ridiculous "points" in the appropriate thread (this thread is about "Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad" last time I checked) but to most sane people there is no comparison between a proposed legislation about contraception in Arizona and making Hindus and Sikhs wear yellow markers signifying their dhimmi status as the Taliban did.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: As I quoted earlier - it is the "moderates" who ultimately ensure "funadamentalism" because they preserve the illusion of possibility of so-called moderation and dilution.
If moderates ultimately ensure fundamentalism, what would the removal of all moderates do?

If moderates do not exist at all and everyone is a fundamentalist, then all behavior is fundamentalism. Perhaps the word "moderate" needs to be eliminated from discourse?
shiv
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:This is facilitated by the particular formulation of the core text which leaves many issues of practical concern out. No such provision is left in Islamism - which works out to the last infintesiaml details of every act and procedure and insists that all of that are unchallengeable and directly delivered from the supreme - one way or the other.
This is very clearly illustrated in Arun Shourie's seminal book. the "World of Fatwas" which was a sensation in its time - before YouTube made this information even more well known with mullahs describing the sexiness of houris and what they would do.

Having said that ground realities in Islam dictate that all Muslims cannot read and even those who can are not given the right to dictate terms and make judgements - a right that is reserved for the mullah and his years of mugging up the Quran and other texts. Naipaul wrote about the fact that Mullahs also get training in subjects like rhetoric which make them effective communicators.

So no matter what God said in great detail about how to clean one's bottom and how to clean off semen, the gyan is all hidden in the book and the book is revealed to the public by the mullah.

Disputes in Islam arise from differences in judgement and opinions between Mullah. There is no "standardization" in islamic education so that a given Quranic/other textual quote is interpreted in exactly the same way by all Mullah graduates of all Mullahnic universities. Bullshitting and cooking up seems to be the norm when a Mullah is asked to judge the implications of an event that has no direct parallel in the Quran or hadiths. So the "homogeneity and unity" based on everything being in the book is faux homogeneity and unity. It does not exist. Insisting that unity and homogeneity exists as I have seen some people do is wrong. It is a source of fissures and disunity.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by devesh »

^^^
these "fissures" and "disunity" amazingly don't stop the ultimate convergence of all Islamic authorities' view in favor of genocide against kafirs. for some reason, these mythical "fissures" in Islam don't stop the process of convergence whereby all the "authorities" are in favor of genocide of kafirs. this fact is what matters to kafirs. if all those mythical "fissures" and "disunity" in Islam can't stop this, then the conclusion is that the memes and though processes which favor united genocided of kafirs, are much stronger than those memes which cause "disunity".
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote
If moderates ultimately ensure fundamentalism, what would the removal of all moderates do?

If moderates do not exist at all and everyone is a fundamentalist, then all behavior is fundamentalism. Perhaps the word "moderate" needs to be eliminated from discourse
Moderates have only been successful in defeating fundamentalism within an ideology only if they pursued that moderation with extremism - as the religious rebellions of the protestants against the established Roman Catholic within Christianism. Moderation of the type of Sufis - always ultimately converged towards upholding the literal sharia and no moderation in the implementation of the law or violent genocidic proselytization.

Shias and sunnis clash over the source of Islamic authority in the imamate - and all their fights are primarily about the source of legitimacy of the human leadership of Islam. Do people care to look up the practical issues on which they differ and how exactly they differ? Shias accept Mutha "marriage", that is a temporary contract marraige for the sole purpose of having sex - in exchange for the usual price of the buza [use rights of physical person and genitalia] that is passed off as the "dower". Sunnis say that Mutha was cancelled by Muhammad after he allowed it on a particular raid. But both agree that enslavement of captive women and their enjoyment as right hand possession is ordained in the core text and therefore accepted.

Do people know about what exactly the Sufis differ from the fundamentalists? How much and exactly on what points? In fact the principal Sufi founders identifiable by their textual and following influence - all have proved even more fundamentalist than those they criticized on issues of fundamental importance to non-Muslims concerning Islamist behaviour towards non-Muslims. Tayimyia would be a classic example.

Moderates of the Sufi type - hide an even greater desire for converting the non-Muslim because at the end of the process they want to establish what they deem a purer and unadulterated form of Islam - which has to be necessarily universally followed. On the way their apparent moderation can be used to confuse the non-Muslim and let them off guard or corner those among the non-Muslim who try to point out the long term taqyia involved.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

Again abdout caged and aware and uncaged/unaware tigers : this intercomparison of the relative seriousness of the threats between Christianism of the American type and Islamism of the ME types [ or even subcontinental types] is OT. Maybe then there should be another thread on Christianism and Chrstianophobia Abroad - News and Analysis.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

devesh wrote:^^^
these "fissures" and "disunity" amazingly don't stop the ultimate convergence of all Islamic authorities' view in favor of genocide against kafirs. for some reason, these mythical "fissures" in Islam don't stop the process of convergence whereby all the "authorities" are in favor of genocide of kafirs. this fact is what matters to kafirs. if all those mythical "fissures" and "disunity" in Islam can't stop this, then the conclusion is that the memes and though processes which favor united genocided of kafirs, are much stronger than those memes which cause "disunity".
Exactly. Then why beat about the bush and speak of all the little details of life listed in the Quran. How does it matter how a Muslim cleans his bottom? That might kill a kafir by laughter, that's all. Apply Occams razor and blurt it out "Islam demands the elimination of non Muslims"

That information is well known on here and has been posted by hundreds of people for over a decade.

So what is it about islam that makes you so certain that if it consolidates, India will be a pushover? I don't even think it can consolidate.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:shiv wrote
If moderates ultimately ensure fundamentalism, what would the removal of all moderates do?

If moderates do not exist at all and everyone is a fundamentalist, then all behavior is fundamentalism. Perhaps the word "moderate" needs to be eliminated from discourse
Moderates have only been successful in defeating fundamentalism within an ideology only if they pursued that moderation with extremism
Moderation in Islam is never designed to defeat fundamentalism. Islam is fundamentalism by definition and to eliminate fundamentalists Islam has to be eliminated. Why would moderates stay within Islam and try and eliminate Islam?

Moderation in Islam is actually a protective shield used by fundamentalists to survive in a world full of enemies showing that "We are just like you". Islamic communities within non Islamic communities are like a droplet of oil suspended in water by a stabilizing agent like soap. The soap creates an outer coating on the droplet. The inner part of the coating is "friendly" to oil and the outer part is "friendly" to water. the moderates are that "outer coating/ outer face". They behave fully islamic within their communities and behave fully secular when interacting with kafirs. This protects the fundamentalism.

If a community is wholly Islamic, moderates are not needed at all. Moderation is a change of face/change of behavior to avoid immediate confrontation with kafirs at a time that may be inconvenient. Taqiya is moderation. In a mixed community, once all kafirs are eliminated, there is no more need for moderates. Any "moderates" are munafiqoon - hypocrites because there is no need for taqiya. Any Muslims who shows "moderate" behavior in a wholly islamic community is taking a risk. His life depends on the personality of his mullah or his personal wealth/power. Islamic power structures are designed so that the biggest goon/thug can get away with any behavior by intimidation. The mango Muslim has to bow his head to sharia. He does not have to enjoy it. He just has to do it. Islamic rules are about compulsion. Not about enjoying it. People who claim that all Muslims enjoy and revel in following every aspect of sharia are attributing non human characteristics to Muslims. The "joke" that follows from this is "Ha ha ha, muslims are inhuman monsters" The leaders of all Islamic countries and societies can be drinkers and womanizers but no citizen of an islamic nation can ask that person to conform to sharia. Such is the hypocrisy that islam allows. In Islam power means that you get the enjoyment and excess you want, but your subjects must follow sharia and kafirs are slaves/wazbull-cattle.

There are ways of dealing with this, but this is the wrong thread. There is no right thread and there has never been a right thread. There probably never will be. We spend too much time going over the same well known stuff over and over and over and over and over again.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by akashganga »

shiv wrote:
Surasena wrote:What does a proposed piece of legislation (it is not even the law yet) about contraception in Arizona (one out of 50 or so states in US) have to do with this thread?

Some people always seem to be in a hurry to do an == between Islam and other religions using any straws they can clutch onto.

If you take Islam and Christianism side by side, you find they have more in common with each other than with Indian tradition.

While there is great awareness of the evils of Islam, any attempt to create similar awareness of what lies at the core of Christianism is opposed by many people who are quick to point out the justness of secular US laws that stand in opposition to Christianism and the absence of secular laws in Islam. As I see it, the presence of secular laws in the USA has not cowed religion down and theoology is still ready to fight secular laws, which are deemed to work oh so well in the USA.

If Christianism is deemed to be held at bay in the US by secular, liberal laws, it is the thesis of many on BRF that secular laws actually promote islamism in India. I agree with that, but they also promote Chritianism. Ultimately the presence of secular laws in the US is of no relevance to India because the suppressed Christianism of the USA is used to fund Chritianism in India. Indian secularism suppresses Hindu tradition and allows other forms of theology to have a field day. Indian secularists look up to the USA as a great secular nation with great secular laws that keep Christianism at bay and love to contrast that with Islam that does no secular taqiyya. But that is a mistake. The Christianism that lies just under the surface in the USA is as vicious as Islam.

Sorry OT.
Well said Shiv. Even though USA is officially secular you can see the effects of christianity everywhere. My daughter goes to secular school in US where they are taught Christian Carols and christmas is celebrated by secular schools. Both Islam and christianity are fanatical in their claims that theirs is the only way and every other religion should disappear in the planet. You should ask jews. Jews have been equally persecuted by muslims and christians for well over thousand years. Christians are using stupid secular indian laws to brain wash poor indians and converting them. Both islam and christianity are faith based religions and in conflict with rational thinking and science. That is the reason you will find fanatism in both these religions because they cannot stand debates. But the fundamentals of hinduism are not based on faith or one prophet rather evolved over thousands of years.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shiv »

akashganga wrote: That is the reason you will find fanatism in both these religions because they cannot stand debates.
They were never designed for debate. They are about rules. You follow those rules or else. 1 or 0. Binary. And the rules have all been written down by some lucky bloke who enjoyed himself thoroughly before fossilizing the rules and then promptly kicked the bucket.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by member_19686 »

Indonesian police kill 5 terror suspects on Bali
By MADE WICAKSANA, Associated Press – 3 hours ago

BALI, Indonesia (AP) — Police fatally shot five men who were suspected of planning robberies of money changers, jewelers and other targets on Indonesia's resort island of Bali so they could fund terrorist attacks, officials said Monday.
Several semiautomatic guns, ammunition magazines and masks also were found during raids on a bungalow and a boarding house late Sunday, said Saud Usman Nasution, a national police spokesman.
"We believe they were trying to get money to finance other (terrorist) activities," he said, adding the alleged ringleader, Hilman Jayakusuma, had been on a most-wanted list for more than two years.
The elite anti-terror unit opened fire after the suspects tried to escape with guns blazing, said Hariadi, a police spokesman on Bali. It was not immediately disclosed if any officers were wounded.
Nasution said Jayakusuma, 32, was believed to be connected to a militant group uncovered in February 2010 after a jihadi training camp was discovered in westernmost province of Aceh.
According to convicted militants, the cell's goal had been to raise money through armed robberies and other illegal activities so they could launch a series of gun attacks on Western targets and carry out high-profile assassinations.
Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, has been hit by a string of terrorist attacks in the last decade, including the 2002 suicide bombings on two crowded Bali nightclubs that left 202 people dead, most of them foreign tourists.
Deadly attacks since then targeted an embassy, hotels and restaurants, almost all blamed on the al-Qaida-linked militant network, Jemaah Islamiyah, and a violent splinter group.
Just as the bombings hit a lull — in part because of the arrest and convictions of hundreds of militants — authorities discovered the jihadi training camp in Aceh.
A string of armed robberies have since been blamed on that group, most of them on Sumatra island.
Police got a tip that the men — including Jayakusuma, who was linked to a particularly violent robbery on a bank Sumatra's capital, Medan — arrived on Bali late Saturday, said Hariadi, a spokesman for the local police.
They slept in different places the first night and regrouped Sunday morning to survey potential targets, he said.
In addition to weapons and masks, sketches of robbery targets were found.
Members of Detachment 88 swooped in Sunday night to surround a bungalow used by the suspects near Sanur beach and a boarding house nine miles (15 kilometers) away, sparking the deadly shootouts, police said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... bf51c6c5ee
akashganga
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by akashganga »

shiv wrote:
akashganga wrote: That is the reason you will find fanatism in both these religions because they cannot stand debates.
They were never designed for debate. They are about rules. You follow those rules or else. 1 or 0. Binary. And the rules have all been written down by some lucky bloke who enjoyed himself thoroughly before fossilizing the rules and then promptly kicked the bucket.
Yes, you are right. Islam wiped out much of native cultures from the lands it conquered. Christianity wiped out native amerian religions and its people in north america and wiped out inca and mayan civilisations in the south america. Fortunately christianity in the west had reformation in the middle ages and now majority of the people in the west are open minded and for them christianity is just a culture they are born into and only a small minority are fanatical. That is why if you travel deep into the heart of the US or canada you can see may yoga/meditation/new age groups whose beliefs and practices are totally opposite to those of fundamentalist christianity. No such reformation has taken place in muslims. Muslims are the only groups who never apologize for their barbaric acts through centuries.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by akashganga »

Surasena wrote:
Indonesian police kill 5 terror suspects on Bali
By MADE WICAKSANA, Associated Press – 3 hours ago

BALI, Indonesia (AP) — Police fatally shot five men who were suspected of planning robberies of money changers, jewelers and other targets on Indonesia's resort island of Bali so they could fund terrorist attacks, officials said Monday.
Several semiautomatic guns, ammunition magazines and masks also were found during raids on a bungalow and a boarding house late Sunday, said Saud Usman Nasution, a national police spokesman.
"We believe they were trying to get money to finance other (terrorist) activities," he said, adding the alleged ringleader, Hilman Jayakusuma, had been on a most-wanted list for more than two years.
The elite anti-terror unit opened fire after the suspects tried to escape with guns blazing, said Hariadi, a police spokesman on Bali. It was not immediately disclosed if any officers were wounded.
Nasution said Jayakusuma, 32, was believed to be connected to a militant group uncovered in February 2010 after a jihadi training camp was discovered in westernmost province of Aceh.
According to convicted militants, the cell's goal had been to raise money through armed robberies and other illegal activities so they could launch a series of gun attacks on Western targets and carry out high-profile assassinations.
Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, has been hit by a string of terrorist attacks in the last decade, including the 2002 suicide bombings on two crowded Bali nightclubs that left 202 people dead, most of them foreign tourists.
Deadly attacks since then targeted an embassy, hotels and restaurants, almost all blamed on the al-Qaida-linked militant network, Jemaah Islamiyah, and a violent splinter group.
Just as the bombings hit a lull — in part because of the arrest and convictions of hundreds of militants — authorities discovered the jihadi training camp in Aceh.
A string of armed robberies have since been blamed on that group, most of them on Sumatra island.
Police got a tip that the men — including Jayakusuma, who was linked to a particularly violent robbery on a bank Sumatra's capital, Medan — arrived on Bali late Saturday, said Hariadi, a spokesman for the local police.
They slept in different places the first night and regrouped Sunday morning to survey potential targets, he said.
In addition to weapons and masks, sketches of robbery targets were found.
Members of Detachment 88 swooped in Sunday night to surround a bungalow used by the suspects near Sanur beach and a boarding house nine miles (15 kilometers) away, sparking the deadly shootouts, police said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... bf51c6c5ee
This is another sad episole in bali. I have visited bali. In Bali you will find more hinduism than in some parts of India. Bali is a mecca for western yogis. You can find many yoga/surf combo retriets in Bali.
devesh
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by devesh »

shiv wrote:
devesh wrote:^^^
these "fissures" and "disunity" amazingly don't stop the ultimate convergence of all Islamic authorities' view in favor of genocide against kafirs. for some reason, these mythical "fissures" in Islam don't stop the process of convergence whereby all the "authorities" are in favor of genocide of kafirs. this fact is what matters to kafirs. if all those mythical "fissures" and "disunity" in Islam can't stop this, then the conclusion is that the memes and though processes which favor united genocided of kafirs, are much stronger than those memes which cause "disunity".
Exactly. Then why beat about the bush and speak of all the little details of life listed in the Quran. How does it matter how a Muslim cleans his bottom? That might kill a kafir by laughter, that's all. Apply Occams razor and blurt it out "Islam demands the elimination of non Muslims"

That information is well known on here and has been posted by hundreds of people for over a decade.

So what is it about islam that makes you so certain that if it consolidates, India will be a pushover? I don't even think it can consolidate.

India is a pushover mainly for this reason: when you have an enemy who is motivated by scripture-sourced hatred against you, you have to realize it. you have to actually understand and acknowledge this truth, that the hatred you are getting is not superficial or "economic/financial", but actually unconditional religious hatred. this is how, you will realize the source of the enemy's hatred and be able to combat it. it is not enough, in such cases, to have soldiers stationed at the border. especially when there is a huge contingent of followers of that religion inside the borders.

India lacks this awareness, primarily because the elites in power have deemed it necessary to whitewash the record of the enemy. by doing this, and by effectively banning any public discourse of the truth of past atrocities committed by the enemy, the elites have ensured that the people do not understand the source of enemy's hatred.

this is why India doesn't understand Islam. in the movie "Players", there is a cute comment about India and Pakistan fighting: "saath saal se lad rahe hain; hume hi nahin pata kyoon lad rahe hain! tu kya hama samjhayega?"
"we are fighting for 60 years and don't know why. what will you explain us?"

that is the level of dhimminess of Indians. this is why India will be a pushover. when there is a renewed call of the Ummah, the Indian army at the border will be helpless b/c they were never trained to fight against this enemy.

entire swaths of Indian territory will become "no go" zones, if the call for Jihad is announced and put into action. I hope I am wrong, but my brain tells me I might not be.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by member_19686 »

Jakim: Fine, jail from July 1 for not displaying halal certificate and logo

KUALA LUMPUR: Effective July 1, the Islamic Development Department (Jakim) will fine and jail food operators who fail to display halal certificate and logo.

Halal hub division director Hakimah Mohd Yusoff said monitoring will be done in cooperation with the Domestic Trade, Cooperatives and Consumerism Ministry.

"We will visit every premise from March 31 to educate food operators on the need to obtain the halal certificate and not only display the halal logo," she said Friday.

Only halal certificates and halal logos issued by Jakim and the Federal Territory Islamic Religious Department (Jawi) are recognised.

"Halal certificates issued by the private sector are not recognised and operators who display them will be dealt with. This is stipulated under Section 16 of Domestic Trade Act 2011." Hakimah said until February, a total of 1,420 applications for halal certificates had been received. - Bernama

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... sec=nation
Comment:
This certificate amounts to yet another thinly-disguised 'jizya' tax, as 80% of Malaysia's food industry is owned and/or operated by non Muslims. Each 'Halal certificate' costs a reported RM1000, which is about 300 U.S. dollars. As each and every food item sold at a restaurant must be 'certified as halal', a Malaysian restaurant could easily be forced to spend up to hundreds of thousands of ringgit to become properly 'halal certified'. There's no telling how much this is going to cost the Malaysian economy, or how many businesses will be forced under. But Malaysian Muslims do have their priorities.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/fine- ... halal.html
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