J&K News and Discussion-2011

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Jun 2014 01:14

http://www.statetimes.in/news/1000-yr-o ... l-complex/

1,000 yr old Shailputri Shrine ‘being converted into commercial complex’

Even as Narendra Modi Government has flagged return of Kashmiri Pandits high on its agenda, blatant attempts are continuing to encroach upon the left-over residual properties of residents, now known as migrants in common parlance, which include temples and shrines as well. The incident has taken place at a time when the so-called secular leaders of Kashmir where engaged in portraying Modi as brand communalist rather than showing their own secular credentials by taking effective measures to safeguard the left over properties or shines of the displaced community.

Devibal, also known as Shailputri–first of the nine incarnations of Ma Durga, worshiped world-wide on the first day of Navratra–located on the left bank of River Jhelum on Baramulla-Uri National Highway, has become latest target of the mafia which, in connivance with a town based Kashmir migrant turned ‘Peer’, has embarked on the change of land use, amounting to trampling the sanctity of the shrine, by starting a commercial complex under the guise of Dharamsala in the basement. The illegal construction, taken up without the permission of Baramulla Municipal Council and in gross violation of the provisos of the Jammu and Kashmir Migrant Immovable Property (Preservation, Protection and Restriction on Distress Sale) Act 1997. The Act, inter allia, envisages preserving migrant properties, safeguarding the interests of the migrant owners and regulating under due process of revenue laws the procedure for alienation and also to prevent instances of distress sale.

The management and superintendence of the temples and shrines in the historic town of Baramulla is carried out by Shri Sanatan Dharam Sabha (SSDS). Ever since migration, the Sabha’s functioning has received a major dent as a result of which its affairs are being remote controlled from Jammu without personal supervision and monitoring on the ground.
On getting to know about the illegal construction, some of the alarmed migrants, who are pursuing their business avocations in the town, got in touch with the District Administration and took the matter to the Court. The Sub Judge Baramulla has ordered status quo on the illegal construction. The suit has been listed for hearing on 21st June 2012.

Meanwhile, Deputy Commissioner, Baramulla Farooq Ahmed Lone has ordered enquiry into the circumstances leading to the illegal construction notwithstanding the fact that no permission had been granted by the competent authority.
The Deputy Commissioner, who is Custodian of the migrant property in terms of Jammu and Kashmir Migrant Immovable Property (Preservation, Protection and Restriction on Distress Sale) Act 1997 told STATE TIMES that Tehsildar Baramulla has been asked to submit report on immediate basis.

Annoyed over the illegal construction and alleged encroachments of the Santan Dharam Sabha Baramulla assets, the local residents, now in Jammu and Delhi as migrants, have formed a panel to seek immediate restoration of the property to the designated organisation. A spokesperson of the organistaion told STATE TIMES that a fact finding mission would be sent to Baramulla to find out the status of SSDS properties. They have already sent a memorandum, signed by 300 prominent residents of Baramulla invoking the attention of the agencies concerned about the alleged tempering of Hindu properties. They have expressed the hope that Omar led government will not only look into the matter but provide all assistance to reassure the community about safeguarding of their properties. Commissioner Secretary Revenue Vinod Koul told STATE TIMES that those wishing to come over to Baramulla can move around freely, if they so wish. He, however, said the government will ensure necessary assistance as required.

The agitated migrants rue over the approach of the concerned agencies, saying the Municipal Council is on record having stated that no permission has been granted till 10th June, but still no action was taken to remove the illegal construction as per norms. The Municipal Council has stated that SSDS has submitted a plan for consideration of the building permission committee on 9th June 2014. This is being seen as a fire fighting measure by the migrant turned ‘Peer’ to save the interests of the contractor, who is reportedly constructing the complex being its prospective tenant.

Chander M Bhat pens the historic significance of the shrine vividly. Devibal, popularly known as Shailputri or Shaila Devi, is located on the left bank of Vitasta on the National Highway, just 1 km from Baramulla on Baramulla-Uri Road at Anapur (present day Khanpur). The shrine is nearly ,1000 years old which can be testified from the remains found at the site, placed on the left side under a big Chinar inside main entrance of the shrine. These are six in number and include a unique Shiv Lingam. The main entrance of the shrine is close to the road. One has to step down eight stairs by using staircase to reach the temple premises laid with dressed stones. This beautiful temple is surrounded by four mighty Chinar trees. Some big wild trees also form the part of this complex and it is said that in entire Kashmir Valley these types of wild trees are only seen in Shailputri Shrine, spread over about seven kanals of land. One has to turn right after walking eight yards to reach the main entrance of the sanctum sanctorum and then there is ascend of seven steps to enter. Within the premises is a holy spring, inside which stands a marble temple like the one at Ksheer Bhawani, with a marble icon of Mother Shailputri facing towards south. The premise is 105 feet long and 47 feet wide and has space for circumbulating (Parikrama), with the floor laid with marbles, around it. Holy spring is sixty feet in length and twenty feet in width having crystal clear water? Water oozes on the right hand side top corner of the holy spring. Kashmiri Pandits hold this Ashthapan in high esteem and consider it next to Ksheer Bhawani. One has to step down seven steps to reach Vitasta Ghat. There is one Dharamshala within the temple premises. Security forces are occupying this Dharamshala at present. On the other side of the road opposite to Shailputri Shrine there is a big mountain called Bhairav Bal. A small temple has been constructed in front of the main entrance of Shailputri shrine at the foot of this hill near a Shilla.

After mass exodus of Pandit from the valley, the shrine remained without any care and started to wither from its pristine glory. The shrine was burnt to ashes in October 1990.
Kashmiri Pandits are still feeling nostalgic about the Shrine.
The biggest congregation of devotees at the Shrine used to takes place on Ram Navami on a grand scale. People from nearby towns like Sopore, Kupwara, Handwara, Seer Jagir etc. used to come and join the congregation. Koti Tirth (Holiest of Holy Shrine), Bhairav Mandir (amidst an almond orchard at the foot of Gosainteng), Gosainteng (abode of seven springs and a temple sacred to the memory of the heroes of Ramayana, including that of Sita) and Chhatipadshahi (Sixth Sikh Guru has visited this place) are located on the right bank of Vitasta, opposite to Shailputri Shrine. In the immediate vicinity is a revered shrine of Janbaz Sahib.
Such is the reverence for the Shrine that a replica of Shailputri has been constructed by the devotees of the Mother at Munshi Chek, Jammu.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Jul 2014 03:05

Oh the hypocrisy of these Kashmiri secularists:

No move has been made to seek a guarantee from the majority community to uphold Kashmir’s inclusive and secular credentials.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/comment/a ... 35371.aspx

Same Peerzada Ashiq would be first claim that Indian Muslims should NOT have to ask for a guarantee of tolerance from the Hindu majority.

What's mine is mine and what's yours is subject to blackmail.

his twitter handle is @peerashiq

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jul 2014 21:45

Now return of Kashmiri pandits to J&K and plan of Govt of India is being discussed in MSM. Son of Grand Mufti is being accused of committing genocide in Kashmir and killing or driving Pandits out. Son of Mufti says J&K is not part of India. Dorrnob is as usual shouting at him.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Jul 2014 07:22

Jammu and Kashmir seeks Rs 6,000 crore for rehab of Pandits

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Jul 2014 07:28

After 24 years, Hindu temple reopens in militant hub

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Jul 2014 08:38

Guys, any thoughts on whether TSP will indulge in any hanky panky as ModiJi visits the valley?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Jul 2014 08:38

Guys, any thoughts on whether TSP will indulge in any hanky panky as ModiJi visits the valley?

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Jul 2014 11:14

Is he not going to just Katra to flag off railway link to Katra and not Kashmir ?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 04 Jul 2014 11:29

That is my thought as well. Why have they not done anything yet? I cannot believe that Zarb-Shorba is taking all their mindspace.

Need to understand Raheel's thinking.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Jul 2014 16:19

CRamS wrote:Guys, any thoughts on whether TSP will indulge in any hanky panky as ModiJi visits the valley?

I think there must be a fair amount of readiness on our part if they don't- something must be detering them?

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 04 Jul 2014 16:43

While there is all this hype about the Modi government seriously attempting to re-settle Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir, there really has been no serious movement on this effort, either on the ground or even in planning. All there is, is some fog and some smoke about some vague plans of establishment of separate townships or secure environments of some kind and even these have not come, even informally, directly from any government sources. It just sounds like wishful thinking on part of some think tank type people or some Delhi type Kashmir watchers, who are well intentioned but really have no basis in reality for thinking that the return of KAshmiri Pandits is imminent.

Then there is this loose talk about scrapping article 370 from some government types. When the Indian government cannot even begin to think logically and systematically about resettling Kashmiri Pandits, how can it scrap 370 ? Failing in these smaller goals, the Don Quixotes of Indian government will then get into jingo mode and declare that they will "break up Pakistan" next. Delusion, Denial resulting in more nightmare scenarios.

Going back to Kashmiri Pandits resettlement issue, in addition to serious problems and inadequacies in government strategy, planning and execution (complete lack of strategic thinking), there seems to be another problem. The Kashmiri Pandits, while emotionally attached to the idea of moving back, dont seem to be terribly interested in putting the idea of "returning" into practice. Unlike the Jews in 1948 who exodused from Europe to settle in Israel, taking huge personal risks and demonstrating a great willingness and capacity to fight, the Kashmiri Pandits demonstrate none of those qualities. They would much rather live in squalor and camps in Jamu and Delhi, rather than take risks with their lives and in fact it seems like a lot of them are doing just fine, having created a life outside of the camps and even those still living in the camps seem to have adapted to that life.

In view of the above, there are strategically two things that are required to be done in order to facilitate the return of Kashmiri Pandits to Kashmir. They have to be done in tandem and the return of Kashmiri pandits cannot be looked upon as an isolated issue, but as part of a larger strategic package of policies.

1. Preparedness of the Indian Armed Forces has to be addressed immediately and improved exponentially in the shortest period of time possible, on an emergency basis. Years of neglect, corruption and paralysis in procurement process, the preparedness of our armed forces on the ground is at the lowest it has ever been, maybe even lower than in 1962. We need to modernize our weapon systems, our doctrine, our war plans and our training systems. Our radars, our reconnaissance systems, drone capabilities, early detection techniques, physical infra-structure such as roads etc, all have to be upgraded on a war footing. Then state of the art weapon systems, whether they be in artillery, offensive weaponary, aircrafts, submarines, aircraft carriers have to be procured and inducted at the earliest. More divisions have to be raised in the army. Incentive systems have to be completely revamped to attract enough young officers so that there is no shortage. Benefits for retired armed forces personnel and particularly families of martyrs and the wounded have to be hiked substantially and made free of bureaucratic hurdles. General atmosphere has to be created in the country where the armed forces personnel are treated as the elite within the society, with high salaries, high benefits and high privileges, not at the upper echelons of the army brass, but at the lower and middle echelons (from Jawan up to the Major or Colonel level, for example). So, fundamentally, our defense posture has to improve to the point of it being almost an posture of "offence". All this has to be done in a time bound manner with babus and the military brass and even the politicians in the ruling party and the states being held highly accountable for any delays or going over schedule on these projects.

2. Simultaneously, start re-settling first, the hardier stock in India in Kashmir, surreptitiously, without revoking article 370. World over, the best of governments cannot control immigration or illegal migrants. The Indian government cannot control it in the North East at all. How come, the Kashmiris supported by the Indian government is able to control immigration into Kashmir with 100% effectiveness, and that too from India, with which Kashmir has not formal border with checkpoints and army posts and any kind of vigilance systems in place ? Something is amiss here. All the anti-immigration activists from around the world should come to KAshmir to study how immigration is a 100% controlled in Kashmir. It is amazing. We need to get in "line" with the rest of the world and region and start creating "porus" areas for migrations into Kashmir for Sikhs, Jats, Haryanvi Jats, Biharis, Bengalis, Bengali mirgrants from BD, Keralites, followed by some Gujus and others. A flooding of such people, initially to be housed in distant and protected enclaves, a la Israeli west bank settlement style, coupled with the more "offence" based military posture in general of the Indian army, will then act as a base for the return of KAshmiri Pandits to the valley.

It will not happen in the absence of at least the two factors mentioned above. Bottom line is, Kashmiri Pandits are too scared to go back and raw courage and an ability to fight is not generally a virtue that can be attributed to that community.

Unfortunately, our government so far has not shown any signs whatsoever that it is even thinking along the lines of the two points mentioned in this post. Nor has any of our rest of the "thinking" establishment or institutions, whether it be the "Planning" Commission, or Think Tanks, or the Press or anyone else.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Jul 2014 21:02

rsangramJi,

I agree with some points you make, but I think you ware showing way too much contempt for Pandits. And please, I am sick and tired of this "Jews are so great and courageous", they probably are, but you don't have to mock the poor Pandits to make your point. The Jews have the entire western world behind then. Their sugar daddies uprooted an entire Palestinian people and gave them that land. And they gave them nukes, they have them technology, they gave them $s, and above all political/diplomatic support. Enough said.

But one thing I do agree with you is that only notionally India controls the valley. Without dealing a hefty blow to TSP, I don't see how the valley can be incorporated irreversibly into the Indian union. TSP is willing to risk nuclear war in pursuing its dream of the valley. Withut an effective answer to the TSP conundrum, the valley is only a heart beat from slipping away from India.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 04 Jul 2014 21:09

CRamS wrote:But one thing I do agree with you is that only notionally India controls the valley. Without dealing a hefty blow to TSP, I don't see how the valley can be incorporated irreversibly into the Indian union.

It is a self-inflicted wound (Indians specialize in wounding themselves). Luckily, it can be easily reversed by removing Article 370, allowing Indians from other parts of the country to settle in Kashmir, and making Muslims a minority -- exactly the policy China followed in Tibet.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Jul 2014 21:41

SanjayC,

I agree but now its too late. Any move by India to change the "status quo" in the valley will be met with a furious reaction by TSP. Not that it is justified (on a larger scale anything that India does that causes kujli to TSP is usually considered "provocative" as per the west/WKK/RAPE), but in the absence of India being able to hit TSP, such a reaction by TSP will invite the usual "nuke flashpoint" crap, and India will be blamed for the so called "provocation". There is an irony here. TSP doesn't have the valley, but they are quite happy with the prevalent status quo simply because they know India's hold is tenuous. Also note India spending all this money, trains, power plants etc, suits TSP just fine. They are salivating at the prospect of inheriting all that infrastructure once the valley falls out of India's grasp.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 04 Jul 2014 22:06

CRamS wrote:SanjayC,

I agree but now its too late. Any move by India to change the "status quo" in the valley will be met with a furious reaction by TSP. Not that it is justified (on a larger scale anything that India does that causes kujli to TSP is usually considered "provocative" as per the west/WKK/RAPE), but in the absence of India being able to hit TSP, such a reaction by TSP will invite the usual "nuke flashpoint" crap, and India will be blamed for the so called "provocation". There is an irony here. TSP doesn't have the valley, but they are quite happy with the prevalent status quo simply because they know India's hold is tenuous. Also note India spending all this money, trains, power plants etc, suits TSP just fine. They are salivating at the prospect of inheriting all that infrastructure once the valley falls out of India's grasp.

C'mon sir,

You are stretching this a bit too far. Revoking article 370 will see protests in kashmir probably funded by pakis. But there is nothing about it that can make pakis take us to a nuke flashpoint. I simply dont see that happening. Plus, there are other ways of doing things. The kashmiri pandit relocation thing is just a cloud to setup new cities there where any hindu can be settled by the GOI. What makes you think that, GOI cannot produce fake records for 6 million new folks from rajasthan or UP claiming that their forefathers were kashmiris. That can be achieved even without article 370. First and foremost, GOI needs to give the state a boost in terms of industry and employment. After that you will be surprised to see the number of people who are willing to go there for work. Create 1 city in Kashmir, 2 in Jammu and 3 in Ladakh. Populate each with a million people, make the cities ultra modern. For all practical purposes make them exclusive hindu cities with huge population of servicemen. So basically you need 6 million hindus from other parts of India willing to move there. Namo and Doval and Rajnath can ensure that they get a domicile stating their dada's dada was a kashmiri. There is absolutely nothing Omar Abdullah or the hurriyat morons can do about it.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 04 Jul 2014 22:11

CRamS wrote:SanjayC,

I agree but now its too late. Any move by India to change the "status quo" in the valley will be met with a furious reaction by TSP. Not that it is justified (on a larger scale anything that India does that causes kujli to TSP is usually considered "provocative" as per the west/WKK/RAPE), but in the absence of India being able to hit TSP, such a reaction by TSP will invite the usual "nuke flashpoint" crap, and India will be blamed for the so called "provocation". There is an irony here. TSP doesn't have the valley, but they are quite happy with the prevalent status quo simply because they know India's hold is tenuous. Also note India spending all this money, trains, power plants etc, suits TSP just fine. They are salivating at the prospect of inheriting all that infrastructure once the valley falls out of India's grasp.

Kashmiris are paper tigers. You are over-estimating them.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Jul 2014 23:40

SanjayC wrote: Kashmiris are paper tigers. You are over-estimating them.

Kashmiris are like children with overblown entitlement mentality. India needs to burst that bubble

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Jul 2014 00:20

We need to slowly begin building "settlements" in Kashmir and slowly push these islamists out. Good move to slowly resettle pundits, but what we really need is to give property to our soldiers operating there and let them keep arms after they retire from service.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 05 Jul 2014 00:26

CRamS wrote:rsangramJi,

I agree with some points you make, but I think you ware showing way too much contempt for Pandits. And please, I am sick and tired of this "Jews are so great and courageous", they probably are, but you don't have to mock the poor Pandits to make your point. The Jews have the entire western world behind then. Their sugar daddies uprooted an entire Palestinian people and gave them that land. And they gave them nukes, they have them technology, they gave them $s, and above all political/diplomatic support. Enough said.

But one thing I do agree with you is that only notionally India controls the valley. Without dealing a hefty blow to TSP, I don't see how the valley can be incorporated irreversibly into the Indian union. TSP is willing to risk nuclear war in pursuing its dream of the valley. Withut an effective answer to the TSP conundrum, the valley is only a heart beat from slipping away from India.

CRamS,

No intention whatsoever to show contempt for Pandits. It was a passing point to set the context to my argument that far far more is required to be able to be in a position to realistically send the Pandits back. There is a general naivete among common people that all you have to do is ear mark some money for the Pandits, increase some security around the edges, maybe create some separate colonies for them in the valley and you can just resettle them. I was just trying to point out that this is not the case and the reasons for this to not be the case. Now, without showing any contempt for the Pandits, I have to say that they can go back tomorrow, if they were more like the Jews migrating to Palestine from Europe in 1948. But they are not, and that is the fact and I say that without any contempt. While you are right that the Jews had tremendous support from Europe (in 1948 they did not start out having the kind of support from the US that they have now), no European fought for them. The Jews migrating Jews in 1948 were probably in the same proportion of the population in relation to the Palestinians, Jordanians, Iraquis, Syrians and Egyptians combined, as Kashmiri Pandits are to the rest of the Valley population. And yes, they had European support, but not really that much by way of money or arms, much less support than the Indian Army can provide the Pandits today in the valley, if they choose to fight, even in the low morale and low preparedness state of our Army today. But the character of the Kashmiri Pandit is way different than the Jew migrating to Palestine in 1948, so let us leave it at that. Even a determined 20,000 strong Hindu (Pandit) fighting force or a militia in Kashmir with even sketchy support from the Indian army can cause havoc for the Valley Muslims, if they fight strategically and use guerrilla and counter terror tactics. It may sound totally preposterous to you and to most people, but why not ? These people are fighting for their home and homeland, their ancestral and rightful land. Any people do and should fight for that. The kurds have been doing it for years even when they had no hope whatsoever, the Baluchis, the South Sudanese, the Basque, and so many others. The few Pandits that I have interacted with have been the most quarrelsome people I have ever met. We Hindus are past masters at fighting amongst ourselves, but when it comes to Muslims, what happens to us ? It is preposterous that we can expect Pandits to fight for their homes, their ancestral homeland and their rights in the valley. You are sick and tired of that expectation. But I will leave it at that.

Lastly, about the rest of India and the Indian army. To your point that the Western sugar daddies of the Jews "uprooted an entire people" to resettle them in Israel, you are just plain wrong on your history. Read the history of 1948, the Jews did all the fighting, there were no western armies or personnel "uprooting" anyone there for the Jews. And it is a sorry statement about the rest of India and the Indian army, that we cannot even match what the Europeans provided the Jews in 1948 to what we can provide to a Pandit militia, if it so chooses to fight in the valley. So, yes, you are right. It is preposterous in our Indian context to expect Pandits to fight in KAshmir with the backing of Indian army. Neither the PAndits nor the rest of us nor the Indian Army is capable of pulling of this feat. That should make you sicker than hearing about the Jews.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 05 Jul 2014 01:45

^^ hmm, thats totally not needed. When goi can fudge domiciles of people and settle them in any corner of that state, why fight guerilla wars.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Jul 2014 02:36

rsangramJi,

My history is not wrong. Without colonial usurping of Palestinian land, Jews would have had no chance. If European and US were so altruistic, they could have chopped off CA and given it to Jews, or Germany, where the mass murder of Jews took place, and given it to the Jews. No they brutalized the Palestinians and gifted their land to the Jews based on their bogus Biblical theology. Enough said. So cut the crap, I don't care for your BS about how superior Jews are, and how contemptuous and cowardly Pandits and Indians are.

But I do agree that lack of Indian military power is the root cause of India unable to deal with the "core issue". Everything else is hot air including successive Indian govts bribing the KMs with whatever they can including trains, power plants etc. And as I said, the irony is that TSP its laughing its ass of watching all this because they are convinced all this is going to be theirs one day, thanks to their nukes. India has to find an answer to TSP (and its3.5's) nuke blackmail.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Jul 2014 02:53

Oh trust me, its not military power per say which is the problem. It's our ability to wield national comprehensive strength and perceive our dharmic identity. Do you think it is hard for the Indian state to play dirty with Kashmiris? India can wage its own proxy war and annihilate those Islamists kashmiri b@stards. We just haven't had the guts. This is changing now. Once the IB is unshackled and given a clear mandate, it will be a dangerous hindu monster that Modi will have a hard time taming. You cannot keep the dharmic resurgence away from the intelligence services for long. They will be influenced as well and will develop their own agenda if dharmic aspirations are not being met by Modi. You can only fight islamic radicalism with overwhelming ruthlessness. We haven't struck fear into them yet.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Jul 2014 03:38

RoyG,

India has already done that, thats why the insurgency failed. But what India is dealing with is a whole hateful, extremist population of Muslims. But you see even that can be dealt with, their arrogance stems from the external support they get. To give you an analogy, do you think US Muslims like what US is doing to their Muslim brothers in the mid east? Likewise, TSP ians in US? Remember Faizal Shezaad? No matter how much Muslims like the $ and goodies that US provides, which partly explains why many of them behave, the fact of the matter is that there is no external power that can challenge what US is doing, and hence US Muslims have no choice but to fall in line or else they get paid vacation time in torture camps run by FBI/CIA. And of course, they have US democracy, civil liberties etc to fall back on as a face saver. India has that kind of soft power too, but in the absence of hard power than can deal TSP a deadly blow, the soft power means nothing. In fact, as we witness, India's soft power bereft of hard power is used by KMs and TSP (and their 3.5) to hang India by its own petard (I assume you have know this phrase: hang by one's own petard).

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Jul 2014 04:24

We have to nurture our own extremists and strike fear into the heart of Punjab. Targeted assassinations, fireworks in Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad, etc. This is the only way. If they hit a temple, we hit 5 masjids. If they hit our embassy and consulate in Afghanistan we make sure to level all their diplomatic missions in the neighborhood. You can't negotiate with a psychotic drug addict on the street by just talking. You have to f*ck him up with a smile. Doval has the right thinking. Whether he is given the leeway is a different story.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Jul 2014 05:06

RoyJi,

Whether Doval has the right thinking is not the issue. Do we have the capability at this moment, thats the issue. On this point I agree with RsangamJi. And this is exactly what Modi said in Kashmir

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 790217.cms

Watch for WKKs and Dalrymple types in the west to suggest that Modi was provocative.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Jul 2014 05:58

CRamS wrote:RoyJi,

Whether Doval has the right thinking is not the issue. Do we have the capability at this moment, thats the issue. On this point I agree with RsangamJi. And this is exactly what Modi said in Kashmir

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 790217.cms

Watch for WKKs and Dalrymple types in the west to suggest that Modi was provocative.

CRamji,

We do not have the capability. IMO, we are restarting our covert action program. It will take 5-10 years to fully mature and rebuild depth within Pakistan and Bangladesh. Proxy war is a dirty business which requires a lot of maturity and stomach. Butchering civilians and targeting high level officials and "non-state" actors requires a special type of mind. We won't have trouble finding and cultivating talent however, it is a lengthy process. Language skills, evading surveillance, logistics, strategy, etc requires a lot of patience and dedication. Our long term goal should be to break up Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jul 2014 06:49

Jews were driven out from all over Europe. Finally the very countries who had driven jews out gave them land. In Palestine, which they were able to dominate militarily

Pandits, driven out of Kashmir should be accommodated in Bhutan, which we can dominate militarily.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 05 Jul 2014 08:16

RoyG wrote:
We do not have the capability. IMO, we are restarting our covert action program. It will take 5-10 years to fully mature and rebuild depth within Pakistan and Bangladesh...........it is a lengthy process.........Our long term goal should be to break up Pakistan.

This assumes that the government as a whole thinks strategically. Even if that is true, this assumes that there are concrete strategies and plans in the works within the government, as we speak, to rebuild our defense preparedness and intelligence capabilities. Then it assumes that those plans would be implemented in a timely manner by the entire government machinery ranging from the politicians, the babus, the armed forces top brass, the states, the military contractors, the military vendors and everybody else down the line. If all works perfectly, THEN it will take 10 years.

And what do we do in the meantime ? We have found a uniquely Indian answer to that question. And the answer is, "sit there and wait". But no healthy society, no healthy people and no healthy country does that - wait for five or ten years and does nothing. This is clearly a failure of our successive governments over the years, to allow our defense preparedness fall to such lows and to allow our intelligence services to be completely disintegrated. In fact it is not true that successive governments "allowed" this to happen. The truth is that successive governments deliberately and willfully diminished our defense capabilities and systematically tore down our intelligence and covert apparatus due to their corrupt and anti-national nature. These governments by their very nature were anti-national and corrupt. The first thing any healthy replacement government should do, is to quickly bring the guilty anti-nationals to trial by special courts, expose them and their misdeeds, lay them bare in front of the whole nation and the world and punish them for setting us back by decades, to set an example and create a deterrent for any future anti-nationals and to also make a clear and definitive statement to friends and enemies alike, that "we are a proud people and we will punish our enemies and not let them get away with this kind of non-sense". Find out who is responsible for setting us back and hold them fully accountable. For every life lost of our brave jawan, for every life lost of our innocent civilians, for every inch of territory lost to either China or Paki.........who is responsible for this ? No one ? And if someone is, then they should be brought to justice and punished. But I digress.

So coming back to the point, what do a healthy people do, when their governments fail them ? They dont just sit around and wait. They take matters in their own hands. They form militias, take up arms and fill the vacuum left by their governments and defend themselves, until the government is able to again defend its own people. A healthy people dont just sit on their hands and wait.......either for the government to catch up or for 10% growth to magically bail them out and somehow defend them.

If the people dont take matters in their own hands and instead, simply wait......then it becomes no longer just a failure of the governments, it becomes a failure of the entire people.....

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 05 Jul 2014 09:25

CRamS wrote:rsangramJi,

My history is not wrong. Without colonial usurping of Palestinian land, Jews would have had no chance. If European and US were so altruistic, they could have chopped off CA and given it to Jews, or Germany, where the mass murder of Jews took place, and given it to the Jews. No they brutalized the Palestinians and gifted their land to the Jews based on their bogus Biblical theology. Enough said. So cut the crap, I don't care for your BS about how superior Jews are, and how contemptuous and cowardly Pandits and Indians are.

But I do agree that lack of Indian military power is the root cause of India unable to deal with the "core issue". Everything else is hot air including successive Indian govts bribing the KMs with whatever they can including trains, power plants etc. And as I said, the irony is that TSP its laughing its ass of watching all this because they are convinced all this is going to be theirs one day, thanks to their nukes. India has to find an answer to TSP (and its3.5's) nuke blackmail.

India has the answer, it's called Indian nukes. Nuclear blackmail only works against a non-nuke coountry.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Jul 2014 11:43

X Posted from the “Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc” thread.

Disproportionate use of force in the invasion of North Waziristan under Operation Zarb-e-Azb by the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has resulted in 566,000 Pathan refuges per the Islamic Republic Of Pakistan’s Minister of States and Frontier Regions, Lt. Gen. (Retd) Qadir Baloch.

Disappointing that the Mohammadden world otherwise every so ready to heave up in anger at the flimsiest of excuses has not risen up in anger at the naming of this operation in North Waziristan targeting fellow Mohammaddens after the sword used by that religions founder, Mohammad. Also disappointing that the Mohammadden world otherwise every so ready to heave up in anger at the flimsiest of excuses has not risen up in anger at this operation in North Waziristan targeting fellow Mohammaddens being continued during the Mohammadden holy month of Ramadan aka Ramazan.

At home here in India, the Mohammadden population of Jammu and Kashmir should be thankful that the Indian Army has not resorted to the indiscriminate use of force for quelling acts of Mohammaddenism Terrorism there. But then again doing a stint as a refugee might make Mohammadden Kashmiri’s more sensitive to the plight of Hindu Pandit’s who have been ethnically cleansed and driven out of the Kashmir valley by Mohammadden Terrorists:

566,000 registered as IDPs, meeting told

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 05 Jul 2014 11:51

Posters here confuse Jews with their own country fighting for it v/s Kashmiri Pandits with Anti-Hindu,Pro-kashmiri Muslims GoI fighting against normal just to exist in the hostile environments.

Who was going to provide them guns and ammunition ,'moral & Diplomatic' Support , Training, Targets , money and Muscle power? Not GoI or Govt Of Nepal for sure while Borders and purse strrings were opened for Islamic jehadists operating in J&K.
Isn't it Bharat that should be fighting battles for its denizens instead of trying to make us feel second class citizens in our country and not even allowing us to fight our battles. Col Purohit anyone ??.
It is easy to sit in a/c room and Pontiff about fighting the war with Islamic Terrorists when the Jews v/s any Hindu minority group struggle is comparing apples to vegetables...
Which Hindu group stayed back when assaulted by Muslim Terrorist. Simple because GoI was willing to turn its blind eye while rest of us were being killed and massacred.
Not for nothing, Rajiv Gandhi and VP Singh are the 2 most hated leaders in recent KP memory.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 05 Jul 2014 16:44

VikasRaina wrote:Posters here confuse Jews with their own country fighting for it v/s Kashmiri Pandits with Anti-Hindu,Pro-kashmiri Muslims GoI fighting against normal just to exist in the hostile environments.

Who was going to provide them guns and ammunition ,'moral & Diplomatic' Support , Training, Targets , money and Muscle power? Not GoI or Govt Of Nepal for sure while Borders and purse strrings were opened for Islamic jehadists operating in J&K.
Isn't it Bharat that should be fighting battles for its denizens instead of trying to make us feel second class citizens in our country and not even allowing us to fight our battles. Col Purohit anyone ??.
It is easy to sit in a/c room and Pontiff about fighting the war with Islamic Terrorists when the Jews v/s any Hindu minority group struggle is comparing apples to vegetables...
Which Hindu group stayed back when assaulted by Muslim Terrorist. Simple because GoI was willing to turn its blind eye while rest of us were being killed and massacred.
Not for nothing, Rajiv Gandhi and VP Singh are the 2 most hated leaders in recent KP memory.

I am agreeing with you that the Government of India has the primary responsibility for defending its people and its territory, ALL of its people and ALL of its territory. My question to you is only this. What if a government fails to perform its duty, not just once, twice, but consistently over a period of decades ? Should the people then just either move out of their homes and homeland to a "safer place" within their own country (which is an illusion because no one is safe in that country anywhere, given the nature of such government) or keep making accommodations with the enemies or takes up arms and actions itself via citizens militia and armed organizations ?

Yes, you are right, that no Hindu sub group has organized themselves in face of this dismal failure of our government over the decades, and so Kashmiri Pandits are not to be singled out for not doing so. That is the reason, I attempted to provide some counter examples of people filling in the void left by their governments (it could be for a variety of reasons that the governments left that void, in some cases there is no government), such as the Jews in 1948, the Kurds over the years and others. Yes, we can always quibble that those are different circumstances in a different time and place and with different political dynamics, but that will be missing the main point. Which is, that in the absence of citizens rising up to fill the void left by the government, the Kashmiri Pandits have been the worst sufferers so far. Not that other Hindu groups have not suffered or that they will not suffer even a worst fate going forward if either the government doesnt step up or the citizens dont step in, but as things stand right now, the end result is that Kashmiri Pandits are the worst direct sufferers.

As I see it, there are only three options for Kashmiri Pandits. One, the government quickly (not after 5 or 10 years) steps up and does something for them in a meaningful way(I dont see much prospects for that), two, the Pandits do it for themselves with some half baked support from the Indian Army and the rest of the citizens of India by organizing and taking up militancy themselves in the Valley or 3) They continue to live outside the Valley (which they have chosen).

The Kashmiri Pandits have chosen option three above. I would have preferred that they and we all would have chosen option two above, and the ideal would have been option one. These are the only logical options, notwithstanding anything the Jews did or did not do. I was merely trying to provide some examples and maybe by citing Jews in 1948, I did not provide a good one. I take that example back, as it seems to have become a red herring and a major focus rather than the main point which I am trying to make, which is that if a government fails to defend its people, the citizens either step in and do it themselves with "self help" or............they leave their homes and.......run. This applies to all people, not just Kashmiri Pandits or Hindus.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Jul 2014 18:46

Dipanker wrote: India has the answer, it's called Indian nukes. Nuclear blackmail only works against a non-nuke coountry.

Make no mistake, TSP wants a nuke war. Hence they keep pushing the button. They don't have too much, and in getting what they want from India including destruction of India, they see as their salvation. View all of TSP's actions from the vantage point.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 05 Jul 2014 19:18

Please ease up. This is J&K thread and no need to grace it with TSP's supposedly mythical strengths. There is TSP thread for all their super mythical strengths and advantages.

J&K, as Indian state has more at stake of what rest of India thinks about this precious state than 2 bit pakis wish.

P.S: Looks like in eagerness to play devil's advocate, to ensure all angles are covered, paralysis or worse the best response would be knee-jerk reaction might be advocated. This kind of overestimating and projecting strengths of pakis, has caused paralysis with weak Indian govt. Times have changed, please to have popcorn and watch the progress (give - reasonable amount of time and not expect overnight results). Guess Dhoti shivering is part and parcel of the way SDREs feel about things in general. Always forget the own strength and continue to be overly bothered about weaknessess.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 05 Jul 2014 20:30

CRamS wrote:
Dipanker wrote: India has the answer, it's called Indian nukes. Nuclear blackmail only works against a non-nuke coountry.
Make no mistake, TSP wants a nuke war. Hence they keep pushing the button. They don't have too much, and in getting what they want from India including destruction of India, they see as their salvation. View all of TSP's actions from the vantage point.

Are you saying that, hypothetically, of course, as it is extremely far fetched that Pundits will, but are you saying that if Kashmiri PAndits do take to militancy to protect themselves, their families and their property in their ancestral homeland of centuries, maybe even milleniums, that PAki will press the nuke button ?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 05 Jul 2014 21:17

CRamS wrote:
Dipanker wrote: India has the answer, it's called Indian nukes. Nuclear blackmail only works against a non-nuke coountry.
Make no mistake, TSP wants a nuke war. Hence they keep pushing the button. They don't have too much, and in getting what they want from India including destruction of India, they see as their salvation. View all of TSP's actions from the vantage point.

Nuke war at the cost of complete annihilation? Meaning they will simply cease to exist ( given the sliver of land they are ) where as India will survive albeit at great cost ( geographically India is too big to be completely destroyed by Paki nukes).

You are the one making the mistake here.

IMO Pakistan has only one choice here, either mend their ways or keep descending in oblivion.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 05 Jul 2014 21:36

Dipanker wrote:

Nuke war at the cost of complete annihilation? Meaning they will simply cease to exist ( given the sliver of land they are ) where as India will survive albeit at great cost ( geographically India is too big to be completely destroyed by Paki nukes).

You are the one making the mistake here.

IMO Pakistan has only one choice here, either mend their ways or keep descending in oblivion.

Yes, either this is an extreme case of Dhoti shivering or we are nuclear blackmailing ourselves on Paki's behalf...

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 05 Jul 2014 21:39

Having made the mistake of allowing the Paki to have nukes in the first place (as opposed to destroying their infra-structure, while they were procuring these nukes), the way India should deal with and negate Paki nuke blackmail now is by pretending that the PAkis don't have the nukes at all, and basing all our actions on that thinking.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 06 Jul 2014 03:27

rsangram wrote:Having made the mistake of allowing the Paki to have nukes in the first place (as opposed to destroying their infra-structure, while they were procuring these nukes), the way India should deal with and negate Paki nuke blackmail now is by pretending that the PAkis don't have the nukes at all, and basing all our actions on that thinking.

There is no need to pretend, they actually dont have any. Let me rephrase, they dont have any that they have made on their own. They may have a few fully assembled bombs provided to them by china or US. Anyway all this is bakwaas discussion. They cant take an inch of the J&K we currently hold. Next, the small portion of azad kashmir is absolutely useless to India and comes with a lot of baggage. The only real part of kashmir that India should aim for is Gilgit and baltistan (sparsely populated and gives us access to central asia). But to get that, we wont be fighting pakistan, rather we will be fighting china. It is ample clear that gilgit baltistan portion of POK has been leased by pakistan to china.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Jul 2014 04:36

Azaad Kashmir?