J&K News and Discussion-2011

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Nov 2011 13:29

Pratyush wrote:
eklavya wrote:
CRamS, the average person in the valley just wants a good life: jobs, affordable food, power, water, housing, education, healthcare, thriving tourism, etc. The average person is not an ideologue. The average person in the valley also knows that they have a much better future inside India than as a part of Pakistan. The average person in the valley is pro-Army and pro-India, as the Army is the main guarantor of freedom and democracy. It is their supposedly better educated "leaders" that are financially and ideologically corrupted and repeatedly let them down.

I am sure that is the reason, why the valley spontaneously erupted in 89 with AK47 toting civilians shouting Hindustani Kutton wapis jao, wapis jao.

I am sure that is the reason why for the last 3 summers the innocent civilians have been busy scaring away the tourists by pelting stones and disrupting all economic activity.

The valley population needs to be beaten into shape and told in no uncertain terms, if they want to live peace fully, then they must learn to behave.

A Small matter of Pakistan Acquiring Nukes in 1988 was a major reason for this.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Nov 2011 17:24

Aditya_V wrote:
A Small matter of Pakistan Acquiring Nukes in 1988 was a major reason for this.

No doubt about this. But here is the question I have. Has TSP war against India in J&K peaked or are they capable of bigger something more collosal? Reason I ask is because strictly from a military perspective, they have launched into the brutal war secure under the umbrella of their nukes. And so far, India has been forced to be only defensive, even Kargil, for fear of getting nuked. My question therefore is why does TSP not start a stone pelting circus or some such thing in the valley, forcing India to crack down, and then doing a full-scale invasion of the valley under the guise of "human rights"? I mean if nukes are TSP's trump card, what is preventing TSP from a full-scale invasion?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Nov 2011 17:40

CRAMS-> a) any building of forces for such an invasion would be detected easily beforehand, entry from POK to the Valley will be through the Jhelum river and land appurtenant thereto, entering through the Hills is difficult.

b) it would trigger an all out war

b) any failure in the invasion and significant loss of PA soldiers without significant territory gained would be a huge embarrassment to H&D, that the many in the core commanders would lose their jobs or even be executed by the incumbents.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 21 Nov 2011 17:44

eklavya wrote:
CRamS, the average person in the valley just wants a good life: jobs, affordable food, power, water, housing, education, healthcare, thriving tourism, etc. The average person is not an ideologue. The average person in the valley also knows that they have a much better future inside India than as a part of Pakistan. The average person in the valley is pro-Army and pro-India, as the Army is the main guarantor of freedom and democracy. It is their supposedly better educated "leaders" that are financially and ideologically corrupted and repeatedly let them down.

Sorry to burst your bubble but You folks will be surprised to know that average KM in the valley is NOT Pro-India despite enjoying all the perks and they definitely are not Pro-Army and yes lot of Average KM do want to live under sharia and join TSP.
Yes every one wants a good job,affordable food, power, water, housing, education, healthcare, thriving tourism, etc. but that is basic human need.

hulaku · Post by **hulaku** » 21 Nov 2011 18:01

VikasRaina wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble but You folks will be surprised to know that average KM in the valley is NOT Pro-India despite enjoying all the perks and they definitely are not Pro-Army and yes lot of Average KM do want to live under sharia and join TSP.

x 2

This is a simple fact that people in most parts of India dont realise.

All KM consider themselves Pakistanis. (If some one says that they dont then he's lying).

But the funny part is ask them this question when they are not in Cashmere and they will sing praises for India and tell you how pro-India they are.

We had this joke about them in Kashmir that when the KMs cross the Pir Panjal they become Indians but when they were in the valley they became Pakistanis.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 21 Nov 2011 18:37

All KM consider themselves Pakistanis. (If some one says that they dont then he's lying).

You mean the valley Muslims feel they are Pakistanis? I had an interesting discussion with a "Pittuwala" while visiting the Vaishno Devi shrine, he was a Muslim from Jammu and he had all the contempt for the pakroaches and the seperatists. This was not some fake hate he put up to impress a Hindu saab in me, but real feelings which I could see in his eyes and sense in his body language. He said the Pakroaches are "bhikharis" and said that he was happy in India. He however did not agree with me when I pointed out that his ancestors were Hindus, he said they were from central Asia/Turki

But what the heck, my experience seems to differ with yours. I have never been to the Kashmir valley for fear of terrorist violence, but maybe what you said was specific to the valley muslims?

hulaku · Post by **hulaku** » 21 Nov 2011 19:02

Yogi_G wrote:
All KM consider themselves Pakistanis. (If some one says that they dont then he's lying).
You mean the valley Muslims feel they are Pakistanis? I had an interesting discussion with a "Pittuwala" while visiting the Vaishno Devi shrine, he was a Muslim from Jammu and he had all the contempt for the pakroaches and the seperatists. This was not some fake hate he put up to impress a Hindu saab in me, but real feelings which I could see in his eyes and sense in his body language. He said the Pakroaches are "bhikharis" and said that he was happy in India. He however did not agree with me when I pointed out that his ancestors were Hindus, he said they were from central Asia/Turki

But what the heck, my experience seems to differ with yours. I have never been to the Kashmir valley for fear of terrorist violence, but maybe what you said was specific to the valley muslims?

OK let me clarify.

When I say KMs I mean Kashmiri speaking Muslims who mostly inhabit the Valley and a few places outside the valley.

The pithuwala that you refer to was probably a Gujjar Muslim. In the Jammu region there are Muslims who dont speak Kashmiri but instead speak Gojri/ Dogri/ Pahari/ Punjabi. As you rightly mentioned they have little regard for their co-religionists living across the Pir Panjal. Most of the Gujjar/ Bakarwal Muslims support India.

Well my experience of the Valley stems from the fact that I grew up there and went to the same school as both the Omars (The CM Omar Abdullah and Hurriyat Chief Omar Farooq).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Nov 2011 19:54

Arn't the Shia KM in particular very loyal to India. They have repeatedly been attacked for this. Also the Gujjar Muslims are not KM then...

From talking to the 2 KM I've met recently at India functions in massaland, their attitude towards India is as someone who did not keep promises made. There is a sense of anger and of being take for a ride but there is very little drive towards being a Pakistani. They may not care about becoming a Pakistani but are not driven to do so. They look at India as a separate nation, one they can extract pelf from. Very odd.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Nov 2011 19:57

^^
Just screw them and there is no need to even talk to them as they will never get apeased irrespective of what you do.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Nov 2011 20:03

hulaku wrote: All KM consider themselves Pakistanis. (If some one says that they dont then he's lying).

I think the problem is more in the Kashmiri RAPE class and in the old urban ghettos.

There many stories of normal Kashmiris being quite pro-India. Last year's IAS topper was such a case. Apparently his father had been shot by Jihadis.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Nov 2011 20:48

abhishek_sharma wrote:Pastor held in Valley over ‘forced conversions’

leaked video - not sure if this is the one.
related video - notice it is from a news channel!

Moderatorji, please delete if not necessary.

In February 2011, Islamic militants set fire to the convent school of St. Luke, in Srinagar, Kashmir. Again the attack was triggered by false accusations of alleged conversions.

Links: asianews.it; jihadwatch.org

Moderaterji Please delete if already mentioned

I think this (burning school on some allegations) does not involve right wing extremism i.e. saffron terrorism and is therefore not as dangerous per the raulbaba, as mentioned to American diplomats. There is no international outcry lest true picture is revealed and things start coming out in open because that will not be secular in the higher human interest and therefore will be communal indirectly.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Nov 2011 22:05

The point about immunity from prosecution under AFSPA is a distraction. Even without AFSPA, Central and State governments in India are very supportive of covering up police atrocities, and protecting police from disciplinary action.

ramana wrote:Need to think if the AFSPA removal is coming from US thinktanks.

Removal of AFSPA is critical for further movement on the soft borders agenda. Even if supported by the US, this was almost finalized by Manmohan+Musharraf, and eventually led to the Nov 26 2008 attacks on Mumbai.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2011 22:15

Why dont we go to JLN as the root cause and wring our hands! NDA govt is out of power since 2004. Yet you want to blame them for 2008 Mumbai attack. Was UPA and MKN wearing bangles?
Has UPA followed all the NDA govt decisions!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Nov 2011 23:45

^^^

Where does NDA come into the picture? I am saying the agenda is being driven by Manmohan Singh.

skher · Post by **skher** » 22 Nov 2011 00:48

hulaku wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble but You folks will be surprised to know that average KM in the valley is NOT Pro-India despite enjoying all the perks and they definitely are not Pro-Army and yes lot of Average KM do want to live under sharia and join TSP.
x 2

This is a simple fact that people in most parts of India dont realise.

All KM consider themselves Pakistanis. (If some one says that they dont then he's lying).

But the funny part is ask them this question when they are not in Cashmere and they will sing praises for India and tell you how pro-India they are.

We had this joke about them in Kashmir that when the KMs cross the Pir Panjal they become Indians but when they were in the valley they became Pakistanis.

All valley Cash=mera's -refugees,Sikhs,Hindus,Muslims,etc. have subliminal dreams of a strong and independent Kashmiri nation.But insurgency, like all other legal means, needs haard verk, so some fringe elements were financed into JKLF; but were beaten black and blue by both Pakistan and Indian security forces; thankfully.

But these aspirations are prevalent in all subdivisions of India.Sadly, the others are not entitled by Article 370 for "special status" nor given enough idle time by their state govts. to sustain such illusions of grandeur.So Indian nationalism emerges when they see themselves as a part of a greater whole, ie. they vote.Else, it is My tax-free electricity,My flag, My rented houseboat,My free irrigation water,etc.

The valley population needs to be beaten into shape and told in no uncertain terms, if they want to live peace fully, then they must learn to behave.

1.Quite frankly, the new generation,1980's onwards, has not even an iota of the concept about living peacefully and contributing through honest labor. But they are very talented stonethrowers, tea consumers and storyweavers.

2.For the stonethrowers,The state govt. needs something like a locally based conscripted civilian equivalent of sappers for construction/quarrying of public works for about two years per person to reorient this new generation of youth towards the idea of needing skills to do get a good job. Also, cutting number of govt. posts in many overmanned departments like agricultural trade might help.Sports is another option.

3.The tea consumer variety need to be pushed into self help groups for training and then IT-based ventures.

4.The storyweaver specialty is most difficult to deal with.So, are best reoriented towards sales of horticultural products and all state goods.Tourism is an option through bed and brakephast scheme. Ideal job is to somehow convince industry to invest (indeed quite a story) and become liaison officers.

skher · Post by **skher** » 22 Nov 2011 01:13

vera_k wrote:The point about immunity from prosecution under AFSPA is a distraction. Even without AFSPA, Central and State governments in India are very supportive of covering up police atrocities, and protecting police from disciplinary action.

.It does not stop at governments.The citizenry is even more sanguine about this, enraged over the slowness of the judicial process.The younger generation amongst the citizenry, which does not vote, is even more vicious than the establishment and may even ask someone to be hanged immediately if suspected of harassment, murder, thievery,corruption,etc.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Nov 2011 01:14

Regarding KMs, they have an strange sense of entitlement, which is not particularly unique to this ethnic group. Hatred for non-muslims and bigotry is pretty much the same for so called religion of peace every where. But KMs have been more or less successful in their Islamist agenda due to certain unique geographical and political conditions. In Kashmir valley, Muslims have an absolute majority that allows them to act as ghazis against non-muslims. Since the suffering party is Hindu (which is widely considered majority), most people just consider it as a minor Hindu-Muslim conflict which can be solved with usual secular pappi-jhappi.
What others don't realise that 4 lakh Hindus were not driven out of Kashmir due to "normal" communal riots, but an organised pogrom by Islamists. If you keep appeasing these wannabe ghazis, allow them to breed like rats, they day is not far when rest of non-muslins in India will face the same fate as Kashmiri Pandits.

You are not supposed to encourage Islamists like these by what successive Indian govts. have been doing till now. You need to punish these terrorists for the criminal scum that they are. These people are beyond the so called Sabhavna, Healing Touch kind of goodwill programs. Those who dispute Indian sovereignty over whole J&K must be rounded up and kicked out across the border. Simultaenously, reward the people who support India by development works, jobs, aid etc.
Right now, it's just the opposite. Kashmir gets lion's share of the Indian largess in terms of grants, development works, publicity and jobs, while Jammu & Laddakh are taken for granted. Everything in state machinery starting from allocation of seats in colleges, govt jobs to assembly is rigged to support Kashmiri Muslims at the cost of rest of the state. Just take a look at the results of KAS (Kashmir Administrative Serices), engineering and medical colleges entrances tests. It seems like there is no Hindu, Sikh left in state. Civil secretariat is almost completely full of KMs with only minuscule representation from rest of the state. Even that share is falling every year with new recruitments.

In past I have opposed division of J&K, but my opinion has changed quite a lot over the last 1-2 years. Keeping status quo is not only unfair to Indians in Jammu, Laddakh but also sends wrong signals that you get rewarded for being a Islamist in India

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Nov 2011 08:21

From the Hindustan Times

Antony baba ki jai!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2011 08:28

Great gloing!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Nov 2011 08:30

J&K conversions not forced: Church

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 22 Nov 2011 11:05

jamwal wrote:Regarding KMs, they have an strange sense of entitlement, which is not particularly unique to this ethnic group. Hatred for non-muslims and bigotry is pretty much the same for so called religion of peace every where. But KMs have been more or less successful in their Islamist agenda due to certain unique geographical and political conditions. In Kashmir valley, Muslims have an absolute majority that allows them to act as ghazis against non-muslims. Since the suffering party is Hindu (which is widely considered majority), most people just consider it as a minor Hindu-Muslim conflict which can be solved with usual secular pappi-jhappi.
What others don't realise that 4 lakh Hindus were not driven out of Kashmir due to "normal" communal riots, but an organised pogrom by Islamists. If you keep appeasing these wannabe ghazis, allow them to breed like rats, they day is not far when rest of non-muslins in India will face the same fate as Kashmiri Pandits.

You are not supposed to encourage Islamists like these by what successive Indian govts. have been doing till now. You need to punish these terrorists for the criminal scum that they are. These people are beyond the so called Sabhavna, Healing Touch kind of goodwill programs. Those who dispute Indian sovereignty over whole J&K must be rounded up and kicked out across the border. Simultaenously, reward the people who support India by development works, jobs, aid etc.
Right now, it's just the opposite. Kashmir gets lion's share of the Indian largess in terms of grants, development works, publicity and jobs, while Jammu & Laddakh are taken for granted. Everything in state machinery starting from allocation of seats in colleges, govt jobs to assembly is rigged to support Kashmiri Muslims at the cost of rest of the state. Just take a look at the results of KAS (Kashmir Administrative Serices), engineering and medical colleges entrances tests. It seems like there is no Hindu, Sikh left in state. Civil secretariat is almost completely full of KMs with only minuscule representation from rest of the state. Even that share is falling every year with new recruitments.

In past I have opposed division of J&K, but my opinion has changed quite a lot over the last 1-2 years. Keeping status quo is not only unfair to Indians in Jammu, Laddakh but also sends wrong signals that you get rewarded for being a Islamist in India

So well said Jamwal ji.
If there ever was a case of splitting a state, it is J&K. There is nothing common between Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh other than effort of Maharaja Gulab Singh and rule of KM's since 1947. This is the most artificial entity in whole of India as I have mentioned in my previous posts.
The whole state exists only for Aish-o-aaram of KM's and thats pretty much it. The fact that people from Jammu, Ladakh,Gurjars and KP's have been nationalists and peaceful has actually harmed their cause.
We have to beg for land for Amarnath, beg for jobs in our own state, go out of J&K for Eng and Medical seats, see our peace disturbed by KM..No thank-you very much.
I would rather take poverty ridden Jammu and Ladakh rather than live under slavery of KM's.

PS: on the subject of dividing J&K, I still would go for dividing Kashmir into 2 entities, art-370 be damned.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 22 Nov 2011 11:10

To all those who have interacted with KM's on this side of Banihaal tunnel, pls take whatever they say with pinch of salt and regular taqqiyah.
You will know the true feelings only when you are on the other side of Banihaal tunnel.
Despite so much of rape and plunder, they still harbor terrorists and join the Jananza tells something about the character of RoP followers.
Guess Where have we seen this character of praising the rapists and looters of their own ancestors and calling them Daddy.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Nov 2011 14:07

splitting J&K into J, L and K is inevitably going to lead to the next step of "K de de baba..."
not sure that is desirable or to be encouraged?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 22 Nov 2011 14:21

Lal,

As things stand they can't change the situation on the ground. Previously I was opposed to the idea of division but now
that the situation is more or less in control by dividing the state the KMs will be restricted to the valley.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 22 Nov 2011 14:32

CRamS wrote:
Supratik wrote:As peace returns to J&K we should seriously start thinking about dividing it into three states. This will
reduce the space further for separatists to play with.

I've never understood this logic. But first, what "peace" are you talking about? As long as there is TSP, there can be no peace.

Coming to your suggestion, both TSP and KMs in the valley will gladly accept a partition of J&K. In fact, their "peaceful" solution through "talks" is precisely this. Partition the state. India keeps Jammu and Ladakh, while TSP gets the valley. TSP will sign on the dotted line tomorrow to such a "deal". Of course, their next course of action will proceed after a brief lull.

The idea is to reduce the influence of KMs. Plus Jammu and Ladakh are very different.

As for TSP and Kashmir, right now the ground situation is like me threatening to sleep with Angelina Jolie.

There may be constitutional issues though which need to be circumvented. A state formation agitation is needed in Jammu
and Ladakh to put pressure on Govt.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 22 Nov 2011 15:40

Just because someone is worried about separate "K" becoming de-facto independent does not mean rest of the denizens of the state be held hostage to this idea of J&K. If we firmly believe that J&K is inseparable part of India and are confident about it, then we should treat it on its merit.
If central govt wants to split the state, they can very well do it.

We don't want open borders with TSP nor we want to trade with TSP thru these open borders.
Heck RajeshA ji, we don't even want their women. We will remember that they are occupiers of the land that belongs to India and we shall remember it till we get it back sans Pakistanis.

CRamS: There is no valley going over to TSP anymore., We are way pass that point in time MMS notwithstanding.

Lalmohan: As long as TSP exists, we will always have this issue of Paki asking for Kashmir. We need to move on and do what is better for the state and Country.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Nov 2011 07:46

Afspa: Law says guv, not CM, has last word

Interlocutors wanted the GoI to select a governor from a list of three people sent by J&K govt. Can you see why?

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 23 Nov 2011 14:31

Ok, my 2 cents:)

I was in KV last year for my honeymoon during the peak of the stone pelting incidents. The shikarwala in Dal lake - an 18 year old - thought that this was mainly the geelani goons and majority are not with them. And he added that his type would have killed him, but that would lead to even more violence. So, let him die of natural causes...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Nov 2011 02:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:J&K conversions not forced: Church

Foriegners want to interfere inside India now and they want to stir the problems inside India.
Indians have to cut this off soon

hulaku · Post by **hulaku** » 24 Nov 2011 23:35

kumarn wrote:Ok, my 2 cents:)

I was in KV last year for my honeymoon during the peak of the stone pelting incidents. The shikarwala in Dal lake - an 18 year old - thought that this was mainly the geelani goons and majority are not with them. And he added that his type would have killed him, but that would lead to even more violence. So, let him die of natural causes...

I know somebody who knows somebody

who is a small time shopkeeper in Srinagar. Apparently the person I know noticed that the person in question was not really at his shop most of the time and was at home, but strangely he seemed to have more money than the time when he used to slog at his shop. Instead of going once a week to one of the two liquor shops in Srinagar he was going every other day.

One day he asked him when they were in the arms of Bacchus, how are you doing it ? Simple he said, I get paid 50,000 Rs per month to organise stone throwers. He apparently spent 15000 to 20000 Rs per month paying young guys to throw stones at around 50 rs per person per day. At the end of the month he had a saving of around 30000 to 35000 Rs easy money to spend on whatever he wanted to spend it on.

True story.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Nov 2011 07:51

Omar’s AFSPA alternative: Amend CrPC

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Nov 2011 21:45

abhishek_sharma wrote:Antony baba ki jai!

I like this. This gentleman has the uncanny ability to evaluate the situation and take a decision. Soft spoken, very simple life style, but a sharp mind. This chap has got it.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 26 Nov 2011 10:15

President Patil lauds Dogra people, their culture, language

She added that literary writing in Dogri has been impressive and by 1969 the Sahitya Akademi gave the language due recognition and since then a number of Dogri litterateurs have received awards from the Akademi.

"Today, the exponential increase in the number of Dogri books being published, and frequent literary and cultural activities are good indications of the vibrancy of the language and speed of its development. Of course in 2003, the Dogri language was included in the 8th Schedule of our Constitution’’, the President said. She said Dogri, undoubtedly, has added to India’s cultural fabric.

"Dogri paintings are no less an achievement for the people of this region. The earliest paintings originated in Basholi. It was in 1675 that the Pahari School of painting came into being and Raja Kripal Pal of Basholi was the first to patronize artistes regularly. These paintings from Basholi, Guler and Kangra regions are world famous and are displayed in art galleries around the world. One cannot forget to mention folk songs and music, which is very popular’’, she added.

Mrs Patil said the songs speak of a range of emotions, from love to heroism and sacrifice. The proud and brave Dogra people are known for their valour, and the name of General Zorawar Singh cannot be forgotten. He was known for his leadership qualities and led many military campaigns in difficult terrain, in the early part of the 19th Century.

"Dogras have made many contributions in all spheres of national life. There have been many illustrious personalities, who have left an indelible mark. I take this opportunity to appreciate their work and I must mention here the name of Dr Karan Singh, who is a very knowledgeable and prominent erudite personality. He has over the last six decades worked in numerous capacities with grace and dedication and served the nation’’, the President said.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 27 Nov 2011 10:54

ceasefire violation by Paki army

troops observed movement of the militants from their forward posts in Krishna Ghati sector at 11 pm last night. The militants, numbering between four to five, were trying to reach close to the LoC to enter into this side. Simultaneously, Pakistan Army also resorted to firing from their forward posts of Daaku, Begum and Chuha targeting Indian posts of Ravi, Kirpan-I, Kirpan-II and Gorha in Krishna Ghati.

Troops gave an effective response to counter the Pakistan firing and thwart infiltration attempt, sources said, adding that the exchange of firing from both sides continued for about one and a half hour. The militant group was pushed back after effective firing from the Indian side. Sources said the militants, numbering four to five, were stated to be the activists of Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) and were equipped with sophisticated weapons. They were believed to be the foreign nationals.

Troops didn't suffer any casualties or damage in the exchange of firing.

Army lodged a strong protest with Pakistan this morning on hotline over ceasefire violation and attempt to abet infiltration by the militants to this side.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2011 01:49

Praful Gradia in Pioneer:

The Kashmir paradox

A conversation on Kashmiriyat reveals the contradiction between the demand for autonomy and need for funds from the Union Government

On a recent visit to Srinagar we had lunch with a college professor, Mohammed Shafi. The venue was the Ardou’s, a prominent popular restaurant in the city. I was impressed by his awareness about current and historical political affairs. His contention was that there would have been no major problem in the Kashmir Valley but for the Hindu- Muslim divide created by Mahatma Gandhi. When he saw surprise on my face, he went on to ask: Why on earth did the Mahatama have to lead the Khilafat movement when the institution of Caliph had been, in effect, dead for centuries? Did he not realise that Khilafat had lost its sanctity the day it passed from Mecca to Damascus, in all probability, in exchange of cash or kind? Thereafter, it similarly went to Baghdad, later to Cairo and eventually settled in Istanbul. What did the institution have to do with Indians for them to make sacrifices in order to keep the defeated Sultan of Turkey on his throne? Yet Gandhi did it.

To make matters worse, he promised Muslims that saving the Caliphate and winning Indian independence were synonymous. Since then, most Muslims in India have been politically confused. Mr Shafi attributed the mistake of Partition to this confusion. Otherwise, he asked why should have UP, Bombay (now Mumbai) or Bihar Muslims been enthusiastic about Pakistan? What was there for them in the centre of Islamic power in the sub-continent shifting to Karachi, the capital of the new dominion?

When I stated to Mr Shafi that all this was past, and asked what did he and his fellow Valley citizens want now, his answer was, “Autonomy. Yes, that is what the majority of Kashmiris want”. But then, what happens to the enormous subsidy that J&K enjoys, first through the Finance Commission and then by the Planning Commission? For once, he conceded that the fault lay with Srinagar. In September 2006, J&K copied New Delhi and raised all State salaries to the same levels. Imagine, Mr Shafi said, for a population of one crore, J&K has five lakh Government employees and very little other organised employment. There are, of course, businesses related to tourism and handicrafts, but few industrial jobs.

How can then the J&K Government function without a subsidy or a largesse from the Union Government? Since he could appreciate the contradiction between autonomy and subsidy, I pressed as to why do not the devotees of Kashmiriat raise their own funds and decline the subsidies? After all, however feudalistic was the Maharajah’s rule, J&K was self-reliant and took no subsidy. And then, tell New Delhi: Unlike the other States we do not take your money; we are financially independent and therefore have every right to be politically autonomous. Kashmiris would then have made a telling argument. Mr Shafi was fair-minded and did concede that there was a contradiction between the demand of autonomy and the supply of subsidy.

So, then I asked Shafi Saheb how he would resolve this paradox, assuming that New Delhi would be all — out to placate the Kashmiris? After all, he who pays the piper calls the tune The reasonable professor said, “In our obsession for autonomy almost everybody in Kashmir, including students of economics, have forgotten to draw our economic road map.” Quite frankly, he confessed, he had been confronted with this paradox for the first time. Then he went on to concede that “Kashmiris do not even have a clear political road map. We only know what we do not want and that is the Government of India’s rule”.

{What kind of a rule is that where the GOI gives subsidy and spends even more money guarding Kashmir from TSP terrorists and gets spat on the face by these KV inhabitants?}

If the future of your State is so confused, what about your own future? Would you not like to settle in another part of India? “Anyway, there also I would remain a Muslim. I would still miss a sense of belonging. The fault is not mine. It is the accident of my birth, that I was born a Muslim.” If it was so simple, I asked, why did you oppress the Kashmiri Pandits? He said, “Yes, that was the work instigated by Pakistani agents in the Valley. Yet on Tuesdays, the Hanuman Day, even now all kasai or butcher shops of the Valley remain closed as a tribute to the Pandit sentiments. Quite frankly, our treatment of Pandits has given us a bad name.”

In the light of these paradoxes and contradictions what then would be his own plan since he is such a thinking and far-sighted person? He asserted that he loves Kashmir, he belongs to the Valley and ideally would never like to leave. But the question which often gnaws him is, he said, “Should I not settle abroad where I would not feel alien merely because I am a Muslim.” To which my question was: Which country would that be? Most Western countries, if not their Governments, certainly their people, have begun looking away from Muslims since 9/11 and other such events. And the truly Islamic countries do not seem to grant citizenship to whom they perceive as foreigners; Muslim or otherwise. Even Dubai does not consider a long-time resident as a qualification for citizenship.
We decided to drop this subject when he wound up saying, “I told you the fault is the mischief of my birth.”

When confronted with facts the recourse is takleef and fate!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 02:32

ramana wrote:Praful Gradia in Pioneer:

The Kashmir paradox

If the future of your State is so confused, what about your own future? Would you not like to settle in another part of India? “Anyway, there also I would remain a Muslim. I would still miss a sense of belonging. The fault is not mine. It is the accident of my birth, that I was born a Muslim.” If it was so simple, I asked, why did you oppress the Kashmiri Pandits? He said, “Yes, that was the work instigated by Pakistani agents in the Valley. Yet on Tuesdays, the Hanuman Day, even now all kasai or butcher shops of the Valley remain closed as a tribute to the Pandit sentiments. Quite frankly, our treatment of Pandits has given us a bad name.”

In the light of these paradoxes and contradictions what then would be his own plan since he is such a thinking and far-sighted person? He asserted that he loves Kashmir, he belongs to the Valley and ideally would never like to leave. But the question which often gnaws him is, he said, “Should I not settle abroad where I would not feel alien merely because I am a Muslim.” To which my question was: Which country would that be? Most Western countries, if not their Governments, certainly their people, have begun looking away from Muslims since 9/11 and other such events. And the truly Islamic countries do not seem to grant citizenship to whom they perceive as foreigners; Muslim or otherwise. Even Dubai does not consider a long-time resident as a qualification for citizenship.
We decided to drop this subject when he wound up saying, “I told you the fault is the mischief of my birth.”
When confronted with facts the recourse is takleef and fate!

These two questions are the best. We see the same pattern with other politically minded minorities. It is not my fault as I am born in to this. So it must be your problem. Pay me and pander to me otherwise I turn anti-national.

They would rather live in any other place in the world as a political immigrant but cannot stay with India in peace. How pathetic.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Nov 2011 02:51

[quote="These two questions are the best. We see the same pattern with other politically minded minorities. It is not my fault as I am born in to this. So it must be your problem. Pay me and pander to me otherwise I turn anti-national.They would rather live in any other place in the world as a political immigrant but cannot stay with India in peace. How pathetic.

[/quote]
They dont want live in ME Islamic countries and neither do the power centres in ME trust them. With due exceptions, some how its ingrained in their mind that any success of india is the failure of Islam . This peculiar psyche leads to all sort of Taqqiesque, Poakesque fake arguments to oppose the rise.OTOH , the rise of Indics will kill this instinct and falsify many of their beliefs. The will ripe for picking to cure their disease with doses of reality, rationality administred through rearanality for stubborn ones.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Nov 2011 05:59

@prem those who feel that success of India represents a failure of the "perfect" religion are not wrong. Economic and growth models of Islam are feudal, meaning that there is scope for understanding harvesting (preferably of other people's labor) and trading but not industry or technology. So they feel psychologically trapped when they see kafirs succeeding in the modern world; also physically trapped since leaving the creed is literally punishable by death; hence the destructive behavior to drag the kafirs down or somehow force them to pander to their echandee.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2011 06:13

RamaY wrote:
We decided to drop this subject when he wound up saying, “I told you the fault is the mischief of my birth.”
When confronted with facts the recourse is takleef and fate!

These two questions are the best. We see the same pattern with other politically minded minorities. It is not my fault as I am born in to this. So it must be your problem. Pay me and pander to me otherwise I turn anti-national.

They would rather live in any other place in the world as a political immigrant but cannot stay with India in peace. How pathetic.

This is ripe material for social engineering!

This is the time for long term assimilation into the indic polity

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Nov 2011 08:35

Make mistakes but fault everyone/thing but yourself. Nothing new though. "Quite frankly, our treatment of Pandits has given us a bad name.”
tells enough. They drove the pandits out and there is no remorse. 'Gave us a bad name' and not 'We made a mistake'. Enough said. As the germans say, arseloch.