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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:30 
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This is a thread, I am putting up to discuss how India would, could and should respond once India has been attacked using nuclear weapons.

Vinit wrote:
1. Prevention: don't let it happen. Includes diplomacy, threats, Chankian strategies, etc
2. Retaliation: it has happened - how do we hit back? Includes preparedness, weapons, political will.
3. Survival: it has happened - how do we continue as a nation? Includes communication, succession, diplomacy,



The Thread "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" was getting derailed, due to discussion veering towards retaliation, rather than sticking to survival. I do consider retaliation as part of survival strategy, but it would be a military response, rather than purely a humanitarian and governance issue. So in order to leave the "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread as a purely a humanitarian and administrative response to a nuclear attack on India, I am starting this new thread.

As such we now have the
  1. "Deterrence" Thread for Prevention
  2. "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread for Survival.
  3. "Aftermath of Nuclear Attack: India's Civilizational Renewal" Thread for Retaliation and Restoration

I would be cross-posting some of my rather "jingoistic" :wink: posts in this thread. Please bear with me! I hope others who have been giving some thoughts to such a scenario would also be so kind to cross-post their posts here in this thread.

To some extent, I concede, this is a "hot-air" issue, but unless it is discussed, there lurks the possibility that India and Indians could choose a totally self-defeating mentality towards the issue of war and use of nuclear weapons.

I hope that BRFites would contribute and let Indians know that there are alternatives to "dhoti-shivering"! :twisted:


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:35 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

India should also seriously think of relocating the Indian population to a region less irradiated and contaminated.

Actually Indians should be taking ships, each Indian with a gun and armadas should go in all directions, and those who sail to Saudi Arabia should carry two guns and a few machetes per person!

The whole of West Asia should be filled with Indians, and they should mow down the natives, take their women and start a new life of Dharma! The main job of the Indian Navy would become the transfer of Indian populations to the mega malls of Saudi Arabia, Dubai and beyond.

And everywhere they set foot, they will build a Hindu temple!

The Indians will become the hornets, who got smoked out of their nests! And everybody in West Asia, then should say a prayer for the last time as a homage to their culture on its deathbed.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:36 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

India's doctrine should be very simple. If Pakistan attacks, everybody in Pakistan, down to the last dog should die, even if it is the last thing that the last Indian does.

Secondly there is going to be no last Indian, because Indians are going to be cockroaches, and no matter what anybody throws at us, we will survive, and not just survive but also thrive, and that we shall be doing in the lands of all those who enabled Pakistan to get the bombs in the first place.

Thirdly as the Germans say: "was einem nicht umbringt, macht einem nur noch härter" - if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger onlee! And with that strength we will all take one simple pledge - all the lands of Pakistan's benefactors would belong to Indians. They would pay for the hell they brought upon us. Either they will become Dharmic, or they too will share the fate of Pakistanis.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:39 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

Vinit wrote:
I disagree with relocation, whether to Tibet, or sailing off, or whatever else is being proposed. My reasons below.

Firstly, India will still exist. Worst case, say Pakistan uses 100 nuclear weapons averaging 25KT on India. This is worst case because I'm assuming they have that many weapons, all of them are available, all of them can be deployed and delivered, and there are zero failures, zero intercepts.

Even with that, its hardly as if all of India will be an irradiated landmass. Far from it. Yes, the damage would be immense, and we'd have 1-3 cr deaths with the loss of perhaps all major cities. But, there is enough landmass for the survivors to remain. Hiroshima wasn't abandoned after WW2.

Second - and most important - impracticality. Are people seriously suggesting that the surviving 95 crore (at least) Indians would relocate? And to Tibet of all places, which can barely support a twentieth of that number given its terrain, and is in Chinese hands anyway?

Or on ships - how many would ships would be needed? Which country would take you in? Look at the relocation of the Jews after WW2 - relocating half a milion people took decades, forget 95 crore. And do you really want to live as a refugee?

Suggestions that are more practical would be useful.

There is a definite probability, hopefully low, that a weak/fanatic Pakistani regime might engage in an all-out nuclear attack on India, and perhaps this thread could come up with ideas that would actually help the country do something in the aftermath. Yes, its taken for granted that we will retaliate and destroy Pakistan. Now, what can be done for the surviving Indians?


Does it mean, that a nuclear attack would mean that India would lose all its military and merchant navy? Does it mean it that India would lose all its financial assets in India and invested and saved in banks all over the world, money with which more ships can be bought at a moment's notice? So there will be ships around, and whenever the situation arises, more ships would have entered service!

Secondly, India would still be technologically advanced, and if we put our minds to it would be able to put up desalination plants and solar energy farms anywhere we want, including in whichever lands we migrate to.

Sure, much of India would be livable, but somebody would have to pay for the land they helped irradiate - either the payment would be in kind, their cities too would be irradiated or in compensation with equal amount of land for those Indians whose lands were contaminated.

So either Chinese cities in the East Coast would burn one way or the other - either through attacks by Indian forces, or through Indian "non-state" actors. Or China would have to consider giving Tibet, Qinghai and Yunnan to India. That India is serious about the compensation, would have to be impressed upon China by taking one or two cities in China down. If there is going to be war, then there is going to be war. China cannot escape its responsibility for proliferation by trying to play invisible!

The second front India needs to open, it towards the Arabian Peninsula. We will be sending at least a 100 million Indians to the Arabian Peninsula over the next 6-7 years, and they will see to it that there is not a single Arab alive, and the whole landscape is dotted by Hindu temples, all the way to Jerusalem. It is not a question of whether somebody lets us in or not. We will barge in on shoulders of our numbers and military strength. We will turn the land green and the map saffron! The Arabs cannot escape the responsibility of sowing the seeds of the destruction of the Indian Subcontinent and hope to that the storm would pass them by!

Thirdly every Pakjabi man, woman and child regardless of where ever they may be living on the face of the earth or beyond, will be butchered till there is no trace of that qaum any more on this earth. They will be safe neither in Queenstan, nor in Amreeka, nor in Canada, nor in Norway, simply nowhere. India would be putting up killer commandos in all these lands, and their work would be of hunting down the Pakis, and cremating them alive. No Paki caught would ever end up in a grave or have his last rites read. They will simply be fed to the pigs!

And now Pakilurkers, go ahead and enrich more uranium!


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:44 
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Making Nuclear War Manageable

X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

shiv wrote:
Quote:
A. The retaliation against terrorist organisations can be nuclear or with conventional weapons. If we have ascertained that a nuclear strike from the Pakistan side is by a terrorist outfit, and we want to hit back using nuclear weapons, then we should inform Pakistan that we are not striking at the country but only to destroy a particular group. We know the sites of the terrorist outfits. We only need to decide the strength of the nuclear weapon to be used. It will obviously be tactical, of a particular yield that does not cause damage beyond, say, a brigade strength. But my preference would be to use conventional force in retaliation. I think in nine out of ten cases, this should suffice. We should continue hitting them till they raise the white flag.
harbans wrote:
Is this the sort of thinking prevailing in our strategists? We are inviting nuclear catastrophe.

1. This fellow has assumed Paki terror groups have no GOP/ PA/ ISI link.
2. So 9 out of 10 nuclear attacks by 'non state' actors will be met with conventional respose.
3. Assumes a Phone call to Paki leadership/ PA/ ISI will do the trick and allow India to take response.
4. 1-3 come to nought if Paki threaten like before (Parliament, Kargil, 26/11) a full scale nuclear response for India hitting back in response to a terrorist activity from Paki soil.

WKKs don't realize they are unwittingly inviting nuclear catastrophe on India.

No harbans. This is a very well thought out response. It is easy to give a Paki resonse that is fine for BRF "We will nuke the shit out of Pakis". This man has to think before saying anything and when he speaks it need not be the truth but should not get Pakis or others shitting brix when the time for that has not come. His words are carefully selected.

What he says is more scary to Pakis than one might think.


I too think, there is some merit in this approach. If India is attacked by some terrorist group, say in a limited way using a dirty nuclear bomb, and our nuclear doctrine says unequivocally that we too would retaliate with nuclear weapons, and
  1. the nuclear weapon yield would be decided by India,
  2. the point of attack would be decided by India,
  3. the time of attack would be decided by India, and
  4. the details would not be shared with Pakistan, but

we are willing to give Pakistani State benefit of the doubt, and not engage in an all-out nuclear exchange but a suitable response where we take out some population center, or some terrorist hub, or some military base, and we will leave it at that.

We inform the Pakistani Government that the response is coming, and our response extracts 10 times the damage, and we leave it at that Then it could put the Pakistani Establishment in a quandary.

Either they risk being completely glassed or they take the hit on one of their key cities, leaving the rest to survive and suffer.

It helps India because by giving Pakistan a chance to escape total destruction, we are avoiding escalation and saving ourselves much of the damage that can be caused to our own nation.

We are making nuclear war manageable! They lose 10x what we lose in our retaliation, but they survive and we survive, and may be they learn (or may be not).

The message gets to Pakistanis that their nuclear weapons do not stop India from conventional or nuclear retaliation and they only increase the chances of Pakistan paying a heavy penalty for possessing them as they can fall into the hands of "non-state actors", leading to a retaliation! All this possibly leading to disarmament of Pakistan.

India too would be far more willing to use nuclear weapons in retaliation, if we knew the chances are not bad that it does not lead to an all-out nuclear exchange. My fear is that after a dirty bomb, the Indian Government becomes paralyzed due to fear of retaliating with nukes, and does the same nautanki it did after Mumbai 26/11.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:47 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

VikramS wrote:
Vinit:

You are missing the essence of Rajesh' posts.

The Pakis want to start a nuclear war and then conquer India. Rajesh wants India to retaliate in a manner which will end the existence of whoever starts a nuclear war with India.

The difference is significant and not subtle:
One does not want to coexist, and wants to destroy.
The other wants to coexist, but wants the ability and the WILL to destroy if their is an existentialist threat.

And it is very important for India to be have the ability and the will to destroy those who challenge her existence. As you pointed out, an India, would be deeply wounded after a 50-100 bomb strike. The deep wounds however do not have to turn fatal, if India can retaliate in a manner which puts an existentialist threat at the necks of those who want to destroy India.

It is not fancy wishfull thinking; it is a necessity if the Indic way of life has to survive. What you need to game, is the alternative, when India does not lash out the murderers. What do you think will happen? Would India be left to cook in the nuclear oven, or will it be taken apart piece by piece? What do you think will prevent a repeat of the 1000 years of invasions of India from the West? Rajesh' view wants that scenario off the table.

The only way to do that is to take the battle into the enemy's heartland. There is no point driving the invaders away from the gates of our city, when they can be battled inside the gates of their cities. A 1000 years of history should have driven that point home by now.

And if our politicians and military are NOT thinking in those directions, they should. No point repeating history; might as well give up our way of life.


VikramS ji,
thanks for your supportive comments.

Sometimes the lines between Deterrence and Retaliation blur!

Survival has to be seen as of course the emergency response of state and society to mitigate the effects on the population, and it has to be seen as setting up a viable all-India leadership and organization to oversee the rehabilitation and cleanup.

But survival is more than that! Survival is about channelizing all our energies into consolidation of whatever we've left, and then using that as a springboard to neutralize all those who attacked and who contributed to the attack, by destroying their ideologies, their networks and their fortresses. The destruction of such would become the mission.

Survival will be about shedding our tolerance, pacifism and restraint. Survival will be about burying the argumentative Indian for a while. Survival will be about re-energizing the networks of the Dharmic Continuum, and its leadership. Survival will be about all Indians returning to Dharmic Core. Survival will be about Militarization of Indian society under Dharmic leadership. Survival will be about a billion Indians taking the sanction and blessing of Dharma and going out and doing the Parshurama.

Survival requires a total change of mentality, as the previous had proved to be a failure.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:49 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

Y. Kanan wrote:
So we can't wipe out Pakistan any more than they can wipe out us. An all-out nuclear war would devastate both countries, kill many millions of people, but leave both nations intact and unable to invade the other. After the nuclear holocaust, we'd be right back to where we started, only a lot poorer and (slightly) less populated. The overall balance of power between India and Pak would not be changed.


The balance of power between India and Pak also depends on how many Indians are raging mad at Pakistan compared to how many Pakistanis hate the guts of Indians.

Pakistan can be sure that there would a billion Indians willing to take out the guts of Pakistanis and eat them for lunch. We will just be creating a 400 million man army and going over to Pakistan and butchering away those Packees who escaped India's nuclear retaliation, unless they change to an ideology concomitant with the desires of the Indian people at that time. Balance of power would become a joke!


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:50 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

Often we fail to appreciate that Indian mentality before and after the nuclear attack will totaally different!


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:52 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

Karna_A wrote:
Vinit wrote:
Neela, my question is: what exactly will India do to prevent a Paki attack if it detects a higher Paki readiness?
The answer is, not much can be done.

My whole point is that there is no way to stop a fanatic Paki leadership who accepts the loss of their country from launching a massive nuke attack (subject of this thread). Which is why I regard "inability of Pak to do a surprise attack" as a distraction.

The only way to stop a determined and fanatic Pak from a nuke strike is for us to do a pre-emptive strike, which we will not do.

Given that, what we can do is retaliate, and prepare to deal with the aftermath - which is the subject of this thread. But to discuss that, we need to accept that such a nuke strike is possible (hopefully unlikely, but still possible) and then go from there.


A conventional 20 Agni missile strike on Dhahran, KSA to destroy most of the the oil industry there will stop a potential Paki nook attack.
Why would it stop, the reasons are complex and convoluted, but only someone who understands Islamist mentality would understand them:
This is taking TSP philosophy on its head where no matter why TSP nooks India, India Nooks KSA.

Its well known that TSP defence against Israeli attack was that if Israel atatcks TSP, TSP attacks India.

(a) It would prove that Delhi has mad men who will do anything to save India, even nook half of Asia, though TSP is given chance by using Conventional missiles first.
(b) It would become clear to TSP that a nook on India now will mean 2 nooks on TSP and 3 on KSA.
(c) Further escalation from TSP would mean that KSA would go back to 7th century or even 6th century.

There is no need to destroy the two Ms in KSA yet as that would affect the Indians in Gulf and also patriotic IMs. But everything else in KSA is fair game like Riyadh, Dhahran, Jeddah, Dammam.

A 50-100 Nook attack on India has to be avoided at all costs and best way is to make sure TSP generals know that a Mad Tantric believing in crores of reincarnations is way more dangerous than a mad Mullah just believing in 72 houris.


Karna_A ji,

Thanks for spelling it out again. KSA should be game if Pakistan attacks India. More specifically India should be willing to nuke every major oil and gas field in the Gulf. Either that or we should promise them the 6th century, cleansed of everything that came afterwards.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 12:53 
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X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

Bade wrote:
A small complication in that all the SA cities mentioned has substantial numbers of Indian citizen workers, so they could become collateral damage. I would rather take the Ms out instead. Less collateral and more h&d issues.


No collateral damage to Indian citizens. India needs to have a plan in place, that in case GoI gives the word, each and every Indian should travel to aforementioned sites asap. All these Indians can form the labor and technical arm of the Indian Military in the Arabian Peninsula should the Indian Military prefer to bomb/nuke some places and leave others for a takeover or should the Indian Military be asked to takeover the whole god-damned place. But even then, the Indian workers in the Gulf need to brought to safety.

Should the KSA government put up some barriers for Indians and in any other way hinder the free movement of Indian workers, then that gives the Indian government all the more reason to attack KSA.

Ultimate goal is to cleanse the place of all those who supported, financially and otherwise, the creation of the Pakistani nukes; as well as to cleanse the place of their ideology, which motivated such to support Pakistan, as well as to cleanse all those who supported such an ideology, pretty much every Arab adult male on the Arabian Peninsula. Others may just be collateral.

It is for the Saudis to make sure that such a scenario does not come to pass, and the surest way is to help India denuclearize Pakistan.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 15:05 
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Bravo Rajesh A ji,
u have removed the status quo...Regarding sparing the two M's i don't think those two will be spared because the whole rules of the game will be changed....i don't think there will be any IM's after the Tandava...and dance of Rudra...so Sahadat will be rightly answered through animalistic anhilation....


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 16:39 
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Samudragupta ji,

This topic, I'm finding is quite challenging to one's own psyche. It is difficult to imagine an India which is scarred by the trauma of a nuclear war, and to capture the anger, the wrath of such a population properly. Should one try to do so, one risks being called a war-monger, complete bonkers, a guy out of his mind with jingoism on steroids. Should one try to tone down a bit, one risks being completely out of step with the Indians who may have just been through a nuclear holocaust. I can just hope, that readers would simply accept the premise of this thread, and interpret the posts by the posters here in that context.

This thread is probably going to be most jingoistic sounding of all the threads, and the readers would have to accept, that there is a good reason for that.

I do hope, this thread can serve to rekindle hope in people in the revival, the renewal, the restoration, the resurgence of the Indian Civilization, even as the premise for such hope is being hypothesized as being a terrible catastrophe. I also don't think, that the spirit in this thread needs to be downcast, but rather it should rather serve as inspiring, even if it is in our Kali roop!


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 17:45 
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RajeshA Ji,
Congrats for this thread but just thought we should hit china exactly as we get it.Dirty bomb for dirty bomb, nukes for nukes, TN for TN and make this intent very clear, apart from what u are laying out.This will insure the MAD doctrine holds and if it doesn't then the whole world will light up.China is not going down without taking everybody with them.Our mythology also shows that this is not the first time mankind has nuked itself.Let's do our job and then leave it to nature.
In any case if the collective consciousness has fallen to such a low degree then let Shiva has his Dance.Why should we try to eke out such a pitiable existence.Survival is not enough.Too many years have been wasted.
Would love to hear your thought's.
These are just my 2 paisa thoughts at first review, kindly do not think that anything has been well thought out before posting.
Lastly Jingoist threads do attract me. :D


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 19:01 
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Manishw wrote:
We should hit china exactly as we get it. Dirty bomb for dirty bomb, nukes for nukes, TN for TN and make this intent very clear, apart from what u are laying out. This will insure the MAD doctrine holds and if it doesn't then the whole world will light up. China is not going down without taking everybody with them. Our mythology also shows that this is not the first time mankind has nuked itself. Let's do our job and then leave it to nature.

In any case if the collective consciousness has fallen to such a low degree then let Shiva has his Dance. Why should we try to eke out such a pitiable existence. Survival is not enough. Too many years have been wasted.


Manishw ji,

The Chinese have provided the Pakistanis with the nuclear bombs and done the testing for them. Should those bombs go off in India, then Chinese should know that they will have to pay!

As you say, the payment should be in kind! But assuming that it is the Pakistani nukes that will go off in India, one can say that China did not attack India directly, therefore I think China too should be attacked by a third party, and not India.

I think, we should wield the Uyghurs to do it, in return for freedom. They should go and place the nukes in the main manufacturing and business centers of China, and let them go up in smoke and radiation! Most desirably, it should also be Pakistani nukes that should be put to use for the purpose. Of course, if the Uyghurs are somehow unavailable, we should do it ourselves. There should not be a single casualty amongst the Han Chinese less than what India has to endure. But more importantly than that would be to change the geopolitical constellation in such a way, that India attains the upper hand in Asia while the Chinese too go back in terms of industrial infrastructure at least as much as India, but preferably much more.

Even if we should choose to wait for the opportune time, the rashtra would need to take a solemn vow, that the deaths of Indians and the destruction in India would not remain unavenged. When we think, the time is right, we should carry out the counter-attack, and absolutely no amount of pleading or appeasement from the Chinese should lessen our wrath.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 19:54 
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RajeshA Ji,

As usual agree 100 percent with your views.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 21:44 
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Special forces disguised as Uyghurs must make sure "Uyghurs" do all tha Paki nuke things to return the gift 400%.
the Idea is to let China realize that no matter what , they are in the same boat travelling with DumbPoakanimals and taste the same radiation .


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 21:51 
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Prem wrote:
Special forces disguised as Uyghurs must make sure "Uyghurs" do all tha Paki nuke things to return the gift 400%.
the Idea is to let China realize that no matter what , they are in the same boat travelling with DumbPoakanimals and taste the same radiation .


Brilliant Idea Prem Ji , good to see u haven't lost your special touch, :D


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 22:03 
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My fear is that after a dirty bomb, the Indian Government becomes paralyzed due to fear of retaliating with nukes, and does the same nautanki it did after Mumbai 26/11.

Absolutely. This is of greatest significance. The use of nuclear weapons requires the ability to commit genocide. I can see America leadership, Russia, Paki and Chinese leaderships would not mind doing that. But an IKG or MMS? They'd balk completely at that stage. Whatever the strategy laid out in the Nuclear doctrine, it must be remembered the final usage will still be a political decision on one man or woman. Looks despite Krishna's forceful message the dilemna Arjun faced, we still have to bear with. That is the biggest dilemna in the response to a nuclear strike on India. JMT/


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011 22:51 
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harbans wrote:
My fear is that after a dirty bomb, the Indian Government becomes paralyzed due to fear of retaliating with nukes, and does the same nautanki it did after Mumbai 26/11.

Absolutely. This is of greatest significance. The use of nuclear weapons requires the ability to commit genocide. I can see America leadership, Russia, Paki and Chinese leaderships would not mind doing that. But an IKG or MMS? They'd balk completely at that stage. Whatever the strategy laid out in the Nuclear doctrine, it must be remembered the final usage will still be a political decision on one man or woman. Looks despite Krishna's forceful message the dilemna Arjun faced, we still have to bear with. That is the biggest dilemna in the response to a nuclear strike on India. JMT/


harbans
I am actually more concerned about the situation we face when our political leadership is wiped out, P5 have planned for the continuity of the government after a nuclear attack since cold war days. I am not sure how it would work in India.Applying how P5 nations appoint the continuing govt is useless in our scenario. We have some very slimy bast@rds in GoI who want to take advantage of the situation to become the leader and deliver us to our enemy.
I am planning to write, if such a thing happens, how we should put up a legitimate face in-front of the world and lead us. The person who takes up the job will shape India's future for next 100 years atleast. It is very critical that we put that person on the chair within the first 48 hours
Altair


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2011 14:06 
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RajeshA wrote:
X-Posting from "Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India" Thread

Often we fail to appreciate that Indian mentality before and after the nuclear attack will totaally different!


While it is true that attitudes will be different. But it is very hard to predict what attitude will prevail in the post Nuke attack senario. We need to stat thinking in terms of countering the various Shlya sarthies that populate the Indian media and the NGO scene.

Will they just sit back and allow India to retaliate or will they go in the overdrive and disrupt the surviving national machinery and prevent them from carrying out the national mission for survival by staging marches and dharnas.

Unless we are able to deal with these people in an effective manner. The talk of civilisational renewal is a bit premature IMO.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2011 18:06 
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Pratyush wrote:
Unless we are able to deal with these people in an effective manner. The talk of civilisational renewal is a bit premature IMO.


Pratyush ji,

one of the reasons, why I thought it sensible to open this thread was exactly for the purpose of considering all the issues we would have to deal with for a successful civilization renewal, and whether a plan for civilization renewal, which would become necessary in the aftermath of a nuclear attack on India, can be made beforehand, before the attack.

This thread is to deal with a possible future scenario - the aftermath of a nuclear attack on India. Everything in this thread, being futuristic, and that too alternate futuristic, is in fact "premature"! However talking about it, is not premature. One cannot start early enough.

Right now, the event has not happened, and as such we are more or less in our minds to think calmly and see what needs to be done. Rashtra needs a plan created beforehand which can be put in place once the event happens. The Indians need to be mentally prepared to embrace the new consciousness, once fate decides to bring us to such a junction. Within all the suffering that would befall Indians, should the attack come to pass, in the midst of all the destruction Indians need to have a singular clarity of purpose.

The infrastructure for the civilizational renewal needs to be put up beforehand in place, and that include filters for evaluating leadership abilities as well as media messages and messengers.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2011 19:18 
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RajeshA wrote:
The infrastructure for the civilizational renewal needs to be put up beforehand in place, and that include filters for evaluating leadership abilities as well as media messages and messengers.

Great post. Precisely that's what needed.
So what's bare minimum to restart after a nuclear catastrophe? I think we are going to need a second (albeit scaled down and hidden) set of infrastructure in addition to what we have now.

Satellite uplink stations (hopefully our satellites aren't nuked down), far flung airfileds (operational), petroleum reserves, etc. etc. These are easy.

Difficult part => What about surface transport? Arable lands to resettle populations? Water resources and irrigation systems? Do we also preselect groups of skilled manpower?

After we are done with the list, could we come up with the cost?

It would take N years, so would we start at D Day - N years? Or the implementation starts now?

After we are nuked, what will be the list of action (off course after we are done with nuking the adversaries) and what shall be the timeframe for such actions?


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011 00:43 
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RajeshA wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
Unless we are able to deal with these people in an effective manner. The talk of civilisational renewal is a bit premature IMO.


The infrastructure for the civilizational renewal needs to be put up beforehand in place, and that include filters for evaluating leadership abilities as well as media messages and messengers.


Hence the importance of lakshmi's blessing for 10ton economy.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011 01:03 
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SRoy wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
The infrastructure for the civilizational renewal needs to be put up beforehand in place, and that include filters for evaluating leadership abilities as well as media messages and messengers.

Great post. Precisely that's what needed.
So what's bare minimum to restart after a nuclear catastrophe? I think we are going to need a second (albeit scaled down and hidden) set of infrastructure in addition to what we have now.

Satellite uplink stations (hopefully our satellites aren't nuked down), far flung airfileds (operational), petroleum reserves, etc. etc. These are easy.

Difficult part => What about surface transport? Arable lands to resettle populations? Water resources and irrigation systems? Do we also preselect groups of skilled manpower?

After we are done with the list, could we come up with the cost?

It would take N years, so would we start at D Day - N years? Or the implementation starts now?

After we are nuked, what will be the list of action (off course after we are done with nuking the adversaries) and what shall be the timeframe for such actions?


SRoy ji,

Our Civilization would be rebuilt on the same four pillars - Dharmic Leadership, Military and Civilian Paramilitary Groups, Engineers & Scientists, and the Entrepreneurs to invigorate the society again. However people should consider having something of each inclination.

It is the human resources, which are of utmost importance, so the biggest preparation we can make right now is to educate our population and to make it even more productive. Even as we should try to save the best minds in our country, it is also important that we try to build as much redundancy in society as possible. Secondly I feel, we in India can increase our level of practical skills from repairing machinery, to carpentry, to masonry, to electrical wiring, etc. Sometimes I feel that once one gets onto the rails of a white collar job, one doesn't want to get one's hands dirty in India. Such mentality should change.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011 06:40 
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The total NRI population is roughly 15 million all over the globe. It might go up further with increasing wealth creation and trade over the next decade. This is a reserve population to dip into if needed both for skills and as investment source for recovery as well as population renewal if really needed. The weakest footprint for the Indic is in South America.

We need to have a widespread reach in areas which are least likely to get impacted when India counter attacks as part of second strike. So smaller nations like NZ, Auz, East African states and South America can be good safe havens from direct hits from the hostilities. People should be encouraged to migrate in even larger numbers as an insurance policy.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011 06:56 
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Bade ji,
Easy to migrate and get welcomed if bringing in lots of Moola and skils to the new homeland. Luckily Indians are on the verge of offering both to the new distant hosts. Few hundred billions investement stretching over few years will go long way in securing these sancturies.
And the best part is, once the mortal civilizational enemies know they wont succeed, they will come to terms with their impotancy while facing the Wrath of SDREs.
And lets not forget Indians will take rebirth again which is banned for most of our adversaries. :twisted:


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011 07:11 
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Prem, Yes of course money always helps. The next decade will be interesting for migrating Indians with an eye on investing outside of India. So far the majority has been selling their hard earned individual skill sets to get a toehold. :-)

My estimate of 15 million NRI/PIO is a factor of 2 less than what Wiki has. So we are already 30 million outside of India, it will not be a stretch to estimate it going up to 50 million or so by 2020 itself. That is almost the size of UK/Germany/France in size and comparable wealth.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011 09:05 
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Funny you mentioned 50 Million by 2020 as this is exactly what i have been hoping ,praying and dreaming for . :D If not by 2020 , then by 2030 Indians will be seeding far places like no tomorrow. It will multiply deterrent value by making it almost impossible to take out Indics out of Earthly equation while taking calculated risk with the Wrath of Ram . Such stalemate is good enough in this Kalyugi era. While we wait ,hope haramkhors turn on each other like flesh eating bacteria.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2011 02:53 
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X-Posting from TIRP Thread

Ivanev wrote:
Pakistan has none of it, and they are jealous kind, always ready to screw the prosperity, so always this urge for peace with them.

<snip>

The fact is there would be a line which could be crossed where there would be no other way but to take on the Pakis once and for all, till today, the Pakis have done a wonderful job keeping a safe small distance from that line.

Everybody has something to save!

For Pakistanis it could be their families, their lands, their faith, their faithful, their machismo! That is what we need to target!

If they undertake a nuclear attack:
  1. Hunt down their families, regardless of where they hide in the world!
  2. Take away their lands, doing ethnic cleansing of all those who do not submit!
  3. Attack everything the 'Pakistani Ideology' holds dear!
  4. Convert Pakistanis, using force if needed!
  5. Make every strongman in every single Pakistani neighborhood eat grass and bow to us, most importantly their leaders! Spit on them! Kick them! Abuse them! Make them break down and cry in public!

If there is a nuclear attack, all norms are thrown out of the window!


Last edited by RajeshA on 07 Nov 2011 20:32, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2011 02:57 
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RamaY
RamaY wrote:
RajeshAji

Good point. Long time ago I came to a conclusion that islamists hold their faith as the most dearest of all. In order to protect it they would be willing to sacrifice their faithful, lands, money, wimmen and faith in that order (it is true for all the faiths). If you observe all other faiths from 100k ft above, you will notice that those faiths are pacified only after the pillars of that faiths are taken away from them.

To pacify Islam, one needs to takeaway the pillars. The Muslims should be forced to find a local pivot instead of a singular pivot that exists today.

Ivanev
Ivanev wrote:
@Rajesh, the elite in the PA have moved their families to US or UK or any such country who would be happy to grant them asylum. Musharraf is a great example of it. Even after being overthrown, he can dream of rising to power, give his anti-India lectures unashamed and unabashed. If he was a man of character, he would have hanged himself by now, again Pakis have none of it. Take him as a projection of the whole country and you have the Pakis. As for hunting them down by brute force, unfortunately again India is known for her culture and values. People can't and won't ever stoop to the level of the Pakis. That's why this compassion and talk of co-operation. The history has been such and the Public psyche remains the same. That's why propaganda works at a certain level. If you feed people bull-shit, in not so long a time, they would start believing it as truth, again China and Pakis are best examples of the same.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2011 03:05 
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RamaY ji,

I've a very simple view on this. If some Muslim country attacks Indians, that country would lose the right to practice its religion in peace in the eyes of the Indians, and everybody, and I mean everybody would have to either
  1. leave their religion for Dharma, or
  2. leave the land for exile for good or
  3. leave this world for testing the pillars and promises of their faith!

Those who are personally responsible for the attack, their and their kin's only option is 'c'.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 19:41 
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Altair wrote:
Brihaspathi garu
If we classify military targets as (a) strategic target, (b) tactical target (c) target of opportunity
Am I understanding correctly that Saudia is a strategic target for us where as Tirumala is a target of opportunity for them because Tirumala is only one of over two dozen holy sites in India and will not affect our Nation or Religion significantly?
I will wait for your answer .
Altair


My personal position has always been that "Indianness" resides in a living Indian society which maintains continuity with its past accumulation of experiences, knowledge and insights. That parampara bit is crucial together with a built in flexibility to experiment and be ready for a journey without getting stuck. But its a living society that preserves identity regardless of whether they have lost or are in possession of their earlier geographical icons. The Jews were "homeless" but did not cease to be Jews - which ultimately made them back a nation.

Tirumala is not just one of a dozen sites. It is a very important site for many people. But then there are also thousands of smaller sites - equally beloved and identified with by millions of people. Somnath was destroyed many times. It was rebuilt. Indian ethos was not about heaven and earth invested into permanent structures - but rebuilding, replenishing, repeatedly. A culture that has a core belief in the ultimate migratory and non-material attachment line of transmigration of souls - cannot hold geographical places and material constructions as irreplaceable or lasting for an eternity.

For us, they cannot destroy our nation by destroying sites. We will rebuild them. These sites once did not exist in these forms - we can archeologically show starting points. So building on them, somtheing that did not exist before or was destroyed is not a disaster.

My point is that however, for the Saudis or Islamists in general - a destruction of their "rocks" does imply final defeat of their gods, or their qyamat/apocalypse, and an all out effort to destory all others or perish in the process. Those who survive will have no faith left.

We dont need to point missiles at the rock at this stage. But we should be free to threaten it as and when it becomes opportune or necessary as part of our wider rewriting plans for the neighbourhood if they do any nakhra on the sly to obstruct us.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 19:51 
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The continents of Australia and America's have lots of natural resource and few population centers. Thus Indians must

1. Keep on getting educated and immigrating to these new places.
2. Open up new Gurdwaras, Temples and Indian cultural societies.
3. Procreate


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 20:17 
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Perhaps one should think about a "white arcade, east of Damascus" and "Al Aqsa" in whatever lists one makes! :wink:


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 22:49 
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This brings to my old wish of keeping 2000 Nukes for all kinds of Pukes to admonish the proper rebuke so they refrain from acting like gooke. But think of it, Saudis have already penetrated Indian inner ruling circle to avoid such retaliation. They dont trust Poaqs and fear the worst. They are balancing by keeping distance from BP=Brown Paki. Once the reservation quota system penetrate and undermine the security institutions, it will be the begining of the end of Indic revival and reprisal on civilizational rivals . Softning is already happening with PSers playing predominant part.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 22:53 
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Oye bhootnikye, WT_

Arre Retaliation too has to be calibrated, otherwise its just nonsense. What needs to be shown is that Indians can pinpoint their targets in the case of a dirty bomb attack. You guys are behaving like irresponsible kids.

I really dont think any country has the gumption to nuke India, in exactly the way that Indians will find it damn hard to nuke others.

Otherwise if this is just letting off some steam, I am game for it. Lets nuke Shanghai :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 23:05 
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ravi_g ji,

this thread is only about extreme contingencies. The more extreme scenarios are of course also more improbable, though not impossible.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 23:26 
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Yes I get it now. Had blinkers on. Sorry about that.

Quote:
3."Aftermath of Nuclear Attack: India's Civilizational Renewal" Thread for Retaliation and Restoration.


Was thinking of words "Renewal" and "Restoration" only.

BTW I am of the view that the best Big Bang response is via small devices aimed by way of 'Chaonka/Tadka/Seasoning' kind of strikes. Leaves a large number of opponents to see their folly come to fruition.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2012 01:42 
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RajeshAji,

My further thoughts on this on my blog post - Secularism – A leash or shackle in Bharat’s neck? Epilogue


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PostPosted: 16 May 2012 04:36 
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Quote:
My point is that however, for the Saudis or Islamists in general - a destruction of their "rocks" does imply final defeat of their gods, or their qyamat/apocalypse, and an all out effort to destory all others or perish in the process. Those who survive will have no faith left.


Good post B' Ji. One query comes to mind, and i have had it for a long time. Why would Islamism end with destruction of some 'rocks'? I agree Dharma will not end, but why should Islamism? Is it more rooted in 'Idol sanctity' than say our Dharmic faiths are? If so why? They do loudly clamor against Idolism.


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