Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Jul 2011 00:43

2004 event:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DC-events/message/3292

---
Anyway I'm not for ideological purity on BRF or elsewhere.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2011 00:48

Acharya wrote:
I agree with this. We need to analyse the secular groups and his posts gives us a window to that world view. This is a new world view for Bharat and we need to understand this. This world view has been spread worldwide and lot of other people think that it is the real India.

This is the crux of the matter and can be used to pursue real indian interests. The opium of deracination might temporary bloat airy heads but will settle down in reality with one small puncture by truth.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 22 Jul 2011 01:02

Hi Friends, I am a newbie to BR.

Regarding the FAI expose, I think there is something very sinister brewing between US and Pak that's invisible superficially.

Pak had been playing hardball and playing a lot of games behind US' back for a decade now. But, for the last few months US has started taking a strong stand against pak's perfidy. Firstly, there were drones where they were harassing Pak's so-virginity, then came the Ramond Davis episode where US was almost brought to it's knees and also with stoppage of logistics through Pak by Kiyani.

Raymond Davis and pausing of logistical transfer through pak was the defining moment for the change in US' stand from appeasement to confrontation.

US has been countering Pak on three levels on an ascending scale on matters which are vital to Pak.

Firstly, it was OBL episode where pak's perfidy was exposed and TPSA's H&D was totally violated.

Secondly, the pausing the AID which was hitting at TPSA's daily bread.

Thirdly, US has started hitting at Pak's ambitions on CASHMEER through the Fai episode, which is pak's jugular and without the cashmeer daydream, pak can't survive even in the near future.

US playing hardball on the Cashmeer issue is a serious warning to TSPA to act now or they are going to make their daydream into a nightmare. US is signaling Pak that if they are even thinking Cashmeer as a strategic depth with respect to water resources, then they have to compromise on the strategic depth they are imagining on the afghan side.

US is implying with it's action on Fai that they are ready to forsake their relationship with PAK if TSPA is not ready to play by US rules and they have already started preparing the ground for US relationship with Pak, if it comes to that point.

Manipulating media and changing public opinion of the citizens of US with regards Pak will have long-term consequences for US's relationship with Pak and they are ready to play this game if Pak doesn't toe US line.

If TSPA is able to decode these veiled threats, we should anticipate a good amount of change in ISI's behavior with regards to Afghanistan shortly/handing al-zawahir, kashmiri or Mullah Omar (though we can't expect any change in policy with regards to india-centric terror). Else I recommend we should consider this as the beginning of the end of TSP as it exists today.

Interesting times ahead, especially next 6 months.

Regards

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jul 2011 01:09

GopiD wrote:
Interesting times ahead, especially next 6 months.

Regards

It might be even next 8-10 years like this.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Jul 2011 01:15

GopiD ji,

welcome to BRF. Very good post!

GopiD wrote:If TSPA is able to decode these veiled threats, we should anticipate a good amount of change in ISI's behavior with regards to Afghanistan shortly/handing al-zawahir, kashmiri or Mullah Omar (though we can't expect any change in policy with regards to india-centric terror). Else I recommend we should consider this as the beginning of the end of TSP as it exists today.

The rank and file of TSPA has moved far too much to the Islamic side. Should TSPA Crore Commanders decide to deliver Ayman al-Zawahiri to USA, after Osama hit, TSPA leadership will not be spared. Kiyani would be strung up on a pole. So TSPA can't really deliver, and even if they deliver it would only encourage USA to use more sticks for their effectiveness.

After Raymond Davis and OBL, romance is over, so for carrots, TSPA would have to beg too much.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 22 Jul 2011 01:17

Yes Sir, I agree. But, in the next 6 months, we will get the drift of what TSPA/ISI are planning and what US's policy going to be with regards to South Asia.

Of course, they can make an attempt to fake US again as they always do.

At least we would know if US would be helping us dismantle TSP/TSPA or if it is going to protect it's protegee as it has always done.

cheers!!

PS: This reply was intended to Acharya ji.

RajeshA ji, thanQ....

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 22 Jul 2011 01:27

RajeshA wrote:GopiD ji,

welcome to BRF. Very good post!

The rank and file of TSPA has moved far too much to the Islamic side. Should TSPA Crore Commanders decide to deliver Ayman al-Zawahiri to USA, after Osama hit, TSPA leadership will not be spared. Kiyani would be strung up on a pole. So TSPA can't really deliver, and even if they deliver it would only encourage USA to use more sticks for their effectiveness.

After Raymond Davis and OBL, romance is over, so for carrots, TSPA would have to beg too much.

If what you say is true RajeshA ji, then the end of Pak has already begun.

On the contrary, if TPSA chooses to side with US, then this time around, the very survival of Pak will be at stakes and this will be clearly mentioned to TPSA's crore commanders in no uncertain terms and this would be the bargaining chip that US is going to play in the coming days on TPSA/ISI. The AID/carrots would be secondary, would only be an incentive.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jul 2011 01:33

RajeshA wrote:
The rank and file of TSPA has moved far too much to the Islamic side. Should TSPA Crore Commanders decide to deliver Ayman al-Zawahiri to USA, after Osama hit, TSPA leadership will not be spared. Kiyani would be strung up on a pole. So TSPA can't really deliver, and even if they deliver it would only encourage USA to use more sticks for their effectiveness.

After Raymond Davis and OBL, romance is over, so for carrots, TSPA would have to beg too much.

This faultline inside the TSPA is going to deepen until it shows up i the foriegn policy. But it also means that India has a deeply islamic country similar to KSA next to it.

This transformation also shows that TSP has made arrangement from KSA and PRC for additional funding for its economy.
Also watch for news if OIC and other bodies will support TSP.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 22 Jul 2011 01:49

Acharya wrote: This faultline inside the TSPA is going to deepen until it shows up i the foriegn policy. But it also means that India has a deeply islamic country similar to KSA next to it.

This transformation also shows that TSP has made arrangement from KSA and PRC for additional funding for its economy.
Also watch for news if OIC and other bodies will support TSP.

I agree with you Acharya Ji that TSPA is going to increasingly become a radical organization in a GLOBAL perspective, but for us, TSPA has always been a deeply islamic state within a state trying to terrorize us.

The overt explosion of radicalization of TSPA is only going to give us an opportunity to hit bact at them with impunity, as we can always claim that we are just hitting at the deeply-islamic-terrorizing hooligans of pak in self defence and for the "greater good of the world" against radicalization......!!!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Jul 2011 01:55

Acharya wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
The rank and file of TSPA has moved far too much to the Islamic side. Should TSPA Crore Commanders decide to deliver Ayman al-Zawahiri to USA, after Osama hit, TSPA leadership will not be spared. Kiyani would be strung up on a pole. So TSPA can't really deliver, and even if they deliver it would only encourage USA to use more sticks for their effectiveness.

After Raymond Davis and OBL, romance is over, so for carrots, TSPA would have to beg too much.
This faultline inside the TSPA is going to deepen until it shows up i the foriegn policy. But it also means that India has a deeply islamic country similar to KSA next to it.

This transformation also shows that TSP has made arrangement from KSA and PRC for additional funding for its economy.
Also watch for news if OIC and other bodies will support TSP.

Acharya garu,

that is why I strongly favor Shi'a Iraq taking over the Ghowar Oil Fields in Al-Ahsa Province of Saudi Arabia in order to stop the Gulf from financing TSP and secondly for India to take over Gilgit-Baltistan to take away Pakistani access to Chinese support.

James B · Post by **James B** » 22 Jul 2011 01:56

Some juicy information in the FBI affidavit on Ghulan Nabi Fai. The affidavit is 45 page long and is on Scribd. It shows how the case has been investigated. Quite meticulous and the case seems very water tight.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60370771/Syed ... -Affidavit

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 22 Jul 2011 02:48

With the fai episode, US has started preparing it's massive propaganda machinery against Pak; the same machinery which has played it's part in destroying another superpower sometime ago. The ball is clearly in Pak's court.

It is good to see the rules of the game changing and playing out to be a positive development in whatever small measure for us.

Even if everything goes back to normal US-Pak relationship immediately, the goodwill and the spinoff this spat between US-Pak has created for us is good enough and hope our propaganda machinery takes on from now (i.e., if we had one).

Now, it would be interesting to watch how the US propaganda machinery works from UK with UK having a massive pro-pak mass. My guess would be to expect something coming out of UK press if the next Pasha-CIA session doesn't work well and if that happens, then we could safely assume that US/NATO is ready to forsake it major-non-NATO ally.

It would be real fun......!!!

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 22 Jul 2011 02:50

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote:
BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

Ramana ji, I know it is not my place to give you any suggestions in this matter, but I humbly believe that you may be erring in clubbing these two gentleman together. While I do not agree with Amit in this case, I have read his posts in other threads here as well as the Mil forum and they have never come across as being against India's national security concerns.
Fully agree with you regarding the other gentleman in question.

.

+1. I have had vehement disagreements with Amit on BRF on many occasions, but I've never once doubted that his heart is in the right place where India is concerned. His is a genuine liberal point of view, IMHO.

Amit should not be lumped together with someone who is an obvious and motivated anti-national; and on whose specific motivations we have now gained new "data"... (i.e., his rushing to the defence of those who attended luxurious India-bashing "jamborees" financed by ISI funds.)

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 22 Jul 2011 03:00

+1 for Amit. Do not agree with many of his points but do think, he has Indian interests.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2011 04:44

"Fi Fai Fo Fum,I smell the blood of an American...." behind this tamasha.As if the US did not know for aeons that Fai was an ISI front man.The ISI's perfidious behaviour towards its patron,Uncle Sam and his hatchet men of the CIA,is what has p*ssed off the Yanqui no end.The Davis affair,Osama hit,duplicity in Af-Pak,were the last straws.Uncle Sam is now showing the Pakis and the ISI in particular,that it/they must toe the line or suffer the same fate as Gen.Zia,Saddam and other naughties who went rogue.

Thus was Fai exposed.Let's be honest,that in this affair,the fact that Fai heads an anti-Indian Kashmiri propaganda outfit is tangential to the issue.India's interests are being served here by default and not as the "main course"! The "screw" of the rent-boy (pardon the pun) is becoming more painful by the day.The command from Uncle Sam is "obey or else..."! The squirming of the Paki leadership both in uniform and civvies is great entertainment.Let's sit back and watch the fun.Not to be left behind too,"Poodle-istan" has also joined in the buggery , by throwing its "two Brits".......ooops!......."two bits" into the ring by squealing on the Paki/ISI entities in Blighty too.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 22 Jul 2011 04:46

Padgaonkar's weak-kneed defense of his trips paid by ISI and Fai has been slammed by another interlocutor on the Kashmir panel, M.M. Ansari, and should be an object lesson for any individual who supports Padgaonkar:

Reacting to The Indian Express report today that in 2005, Padgaonkar accepted Fai’s all-expense-paid offer to attend a conference on Kashmir in the US, Ansari said: “It is very strange and unfortunate. We need persons of impeccable integrity and character to resolve an issue as contentious as Kashmir. Was the Government of India aware about Dileep attending the conference organised by Fai before it appointed him?”

Ansari said that while he could not speak for Padgaonkar, if he had been in the same position, he would have “quit immediately”. Ansari said in Kashmir’s discourse, there was a general air of suspicion. Referring to Padgaonkar’s claim that he “had no idea” about Fai’s antecedents, Ansari wondered: “How can you attend a conference without knowing the credibility of the individuals and the institutions?”

Subramaniam Swamy has no regrets. He says he, unlike most of the other India-bashers at the conference, told the participants that India will never part with Kashmir, but we do not have to go to war over it.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fai-s ... r/820798/0

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jul 2011 05:15

GopiD wrote:
The overt explosion of radicalization of TSPA is only going to give us an opportunity to hit bact at them with impunity, as we can always claim that we are just hitting at the deeply-islamic-terrorizing hooligans of pak in self defence and for the "greater good of the world" against radicalization......!!!

This is something they may look at from the 35k foot that it will create a dynamic in the rgion which is going to change it permanently. They want to change Indian sub continent to their version for the last 200 years.
A unstable islamic country will create forces which will change the region permanently. This is what they want.

amit · Post by **amit** » 22 Jul 2011 05:39

ramana wrote:BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

Ramana,

Vera_K wrote that he believes "elements within INC" knew about 26/11. Yet they did nothing to prevent it or at least minimise the casualties, as subsequent events show. Now people on BRF, including senior members, may be happy to make a distinction between "elements within INC" and the GoI run by the same INC. However, I doubt that outside readers would make such a distiction.

In view of this, my point was that such CTs (it is a CT because the statement has the disclaimer I mentioned above) should not be discussed on this thread (do note I did not say this should not be discussed at all) due to its high profile and the fact that many Paklurks visit the thread. My concern was that this allegation just feeds into the Pak propaganda that 26/11 was done by Indians. I felt there were other, more appropriate, threads to discuss this.

I do note with some amusement how, very skilfully, this comment was linked up with my others posts on the Fai episode to state that if I think Fai and the involvements of Indians with KAC can be discussed then I should not object to Vera_K's post being here. Col Purohit's name was added for good measure!

Coming to my "moral compass on national security", I'm sorry to have to say this but I don't need lecturing on that from anyone including yourself.

Regarding my membership of this forum. I stick around and take part in the discussions here because I feel BRF represents something more than just the viewpoints of some members and senior Admins. If you are trying to usher in an era of uniformity of POVs with no room to express a different worldview, of course within the ambit of what's good for India, then your right I should reconsider my membership of this forum. However, I still think there are others on BRF who welcome different viewpoints and are willing to discuss them even if they don't match their own and in the process both learn and teach. That IMO makes BRF a richer place.

Finally, as a senior forum administrator, if you think my posts cause unnecessary anger among members and that it is best I should leave the forum please say so instead of beating about the bush. I would be happy to comply with your wish. I'll be waiting for your response as I'm sure your "moral compass" will dictate that you give one.

Cheers!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2011 06:17

The latest dance between the US and Pak may not be such a big deal, Nothing the US does can make major changes in Pakistan. But a gradual cessation of aid to the powerful elite can lead to an erosion of their influence - which has basically been aimed at retaining power and opposing India. With the US "not objecting" to the elite opposing India as long at they did the US's job - the Paki elite have converted Pakistan into a deep anti-India cesspool. The US cannot change this.

If the influence of the elite is eroded, the Pakistani public remains open to some other influence. The influence that the US fears is replacing that of the Paki elite is Islamists/Al Qaeda and the Taliban. The US is belatedly trying its own hand at winning Paki hearts with collared US aid goats.

It would seem like this is a good time for India to win some Paki hearts, unsavory as that may seem. But given that India is starting from a negative score where there is an active hatred of India in Pakistan (and also a resultant hatred for Pakis among mango Indians) the possibility of influencing mango Paki Abduls to become pro-India seems remote. The best we might get out of this is to lie low and let the hatred burn out. Pakistan is now not fully in anyone's control. Different groups in Pakistan are doing different things and establishing different "Pakistani policies"

In 20 years - when I am much older, I have no doubt that Indian military power will eclipse that of Pakistan many-fold. But I still don't want my children to have to deal with a Pakistan full of hatred. Some moves have to be made to water down that hatred without making concessions. US aid to Pakistan made Pakis think they could win concessions from India. Unfortunately we have no control here. We have to trust the US to reduce that aid and when the US does that the people who find themselves weaker will be angry and India and the US. In such a situation the US will still have more influence than India. And they know it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Jul 2011 06:50

^ I would rather permanently (there is nothing permanent but we are talking about few-decades to couple of centuries) defeat the idea of Pakistan (TNT, Islamic Terror as a tool, and some of the ideological sources - places/entities/clans) so my children doesn't have to deal with this nonsense.

Why postponing the problem when I can do it today?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jul 2011 07:03

ramana wrote: BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

"Lost the moral compass"? So the "moral compass" is now defined by a trend of view that revels in simply creating a clamour for certain usual suspects whose integrity is supposedly in question? The moral compass is defined by the most fantastic CTs that would perhaps encompass everyone even slightly to the left of KS Sudarshan as "traiters", ISI-agents and collusionists"? And anyone a little more so as mas murderers who need to be hung from the nearest pole? Such quality of analysis is familiar, but typically found in geographies to the West and North-West of India...Moral compass indeed...

If you are trying to make BRF into an "analysis" forum, look at what it does - the usual suspects have been identified - from Padgaonkar to Digvijay Singh to Binayak Sen to MMS to SG to TOI to Hindu to Sid Vardarajan (or is he, now that we know he declined Fai's invite?) to the others..The "enemies" of India too have been identified - China, US, UK, Europe, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Islamics, Christians, Chinese - maybe only about 80% of the world's geography and population....Now, bash them up..And bash them up some more...And some more...And then? Yet some more?

Thankfully, in the real "security" apparatus, this does not pass for analysis (and yes, I do have personal, ringside life experience of it, belonging to a family of public servants, some of the closest of whom have donned the uniform, and actually contributed to the making of policy)...How does the real security apparatus really think/work? Small pointer - The "Kashmir Committee" led by Ram Jethmalani in 2002, blessed by the NDA govt, to try to get some of the separatists to participate in the state elections...Who was its most important member (after Ram J)? Dileep Padgaonkar....(other members included "red, quai-islamist" Shanti Bhushan and MJ "Islamist" Akbar!)...Given that DP is a "convicted mass murderer" (not only "guilty by association" with Fai now), was the "nationalist" NDA playing footsie with such a fellow? Or indeed with another "disreputable character" as Shanti Bhushan?

More importantly, thankfully this isnt the "group think" that is prevelant in "proletarian" India either - as electoral outcomes clearly show...

Where does that leave this specific "special" "moral compass"? Out of the policy-making India, out of voting India....

As for me, quite happy to be dissociate myself from that "moral compass"...........

chilarai · Post by **chilarai** » 22 Jul 2011 07:20

shiv wrote: In 20 years - when I am much older, I have no doubt that Indian military power will eclipse that of Pakistan many-fold. But I still don't want my children to have to deal with a Pakistan full of hatred. Some moves have to be made to water down that hatred without making concessions. US aid to Pakistan made Pakis think they could win concessions from India. Unfortunately we have no control here. We have to trust the US to reduce that aid and when the US does that the people who find themselves weaker will be angry and India and the US. In such a situation the US will still have more influence than India. And they know it.

I think if all aid to pakland would stop and the mango abduls as all as the RAPES have to fend for themselves , actually work hard to earn their keep they would have no time for hate mongering. Indian kids have no time for such. after school its to find a good college and then a job and if no job to do something aptech , niit , whatever ! i mean these are the things which worry indian kids ( and parents too ! ) under such situation where do they get time for the hatred. same would hopefully be in pakland when the aid flow (especially the saudi ) is stopped. The roadside mullah can take you only so far. at the end of the day you have a stomach to feed.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Jul 2011 07:29

^^^ FWIW, I think Ramana garu wrote what he did in haste, perhaps. Any POV, save the out-&-out packee one (heck,w e even tolerate cheeni drones for a while) can only add to the forum. Choti muh, badi baat. Apologies for the OT only.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Jul 2011 07:30

somnath wrote:The "Kashmir Committee" led by Ram Jethmalani in 2002, blessed by the NDA govt, to try to get some of the separatists to participate in the state elections...Who was its most important member (after Ram J)? Dileep Padgaonkar....

Did he attend those meetings when NDA was in power? According to this report

Padgaonkar said he had attended one conference organised by Fai in 2005. “It was a two-day meeting. I had no idea about his antecedents but went only after I was assured that many leading journalists from India and Pakistan would be participating. In hindsight, I agree that if I had the slightest idea about who he actually was, I would never have agreed to go to the US for his conference,” Padgaonkar told The Indian Express.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Jul 2011 07:42

^^^^^
+1 to Hari.

I don't mean to speak for Admin's but I suspect some of the annoyance is the constant reporting of posts by members as it is repeatedly mentioned by Admins as a headache.

As such, if we want a diversity of opinion (as I do) on this board It might be in our hands to reduce the chances of domestic bredator drone strikes. Think Thrice before hitting that report icon fellow jingo's...

First & last OT.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 22 Jul 2011 07:51

Pals of Fai ditch him on the Net

Hundreds of people from across Jammu and Kashmir and beyond have removed their names from the Facebook friends’ list of noted Kashmiri lobbyist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai within 48 hours of his arrest in the United States.

The 62-year-old Fai with another man, Zaheer Ahmad — both US citizens — have been charged with conspiracy, saying they lobbied the US government without disclosing the fact that they were being funded by the Pakistani government, including its spy agency ISI.

Those who chose to “unfriend” Fai include some Srinagar and New Delhi-based academics, journalists, members of “thinktanks” and social and political activists.

Ironically, some journalists who have enjoyed his hospitality during their visits to the US or travelled there on his invitation over the past two decades were quick in deleting their names from his friend list.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 22 Jul 2011 07:53

shiv,
there may be two things at play here.

1). low level army's experience. from what we read/see here in the media, whenever operational people speak about afg, they speak of tsp. there is only so much strategic give wrt operational/tactical people that is possible. small town kids here are coming back with severe mental trauma and bitterness about tsp. and this constantly in news here.

2). tumko ko bhi leke doobenge sanam syndrome - while i'm drowing i'll drag you down too. now this is a tactic that tsp has employed with india. but its not some brahmavidya, others can learn it too. massa is likely pass out of afg with a d- grade. he is not going to go down in afg alone with a failing grade, he's going to take tsp down with him. while he may or may not be able to control the internal perception of tsp, he is going to expose tsp to the world for the snake pit that it is. he will not talk about his perfidity in nurturing that snake pit, but he will now expose it.

a certain threshold has been crossed now. no politician in massaland can be seen to be batting for tsp now.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 22 Jul 2011 08:25

About Dilip Padgaonkar and Fai:
(1) it appears from previous posts - that a publication which he ran - also ran a story on Fai's potential anti-Indian role as early as 90's. A senior "journalist" - who dabbles in and is considered so-much-so an expert on "Kashmir" and hence by association Paki politics as well as perfidy - is expected to know about the antecedents of "key" figures of the scenario.

(2) If he had been really associated with "Kashmir" efforts/initiatives from NDA times, he must have had GOI clearance to do so, and similarly must have been also briefed on the situation and key personalities involved. Does it imply that there was intelligence failure about Fai from GOI side or any info obtained was deliberately kept from Padgaonkar? The first is unlikely if reports of Fai's potential Paki-ISI connection were already published in an Indian paper almost a decade ago.

(3) the only reasonable non-dramatic line seems to be a deliberate pretension of "not being aware", which does not necessarily make Padgaonkar a conscious criminal. He could have been instructed to play dumb, to gain trust of those whom he engages. But equally, it leaves him open to the potential charge that he deliberately ignored inputs out of some imagined sense of "mission".

One of the problems of the p-sec group think is that it can create an atmosphere of self-delusion - by which individual members think that they can clear a path towards "peace and prosperity" based on pseudo-Marxian pseudo-secular propaganda. In the process they may lead the nation into greater dangers.

It is incorrect to think that just because we can identify what we call p-secism, it is an individual voice and not a group think. The p-sec group-think manifests in certain common dogmatic assertions about the nature and role of financial/trade flows in unilaterally determining the direction of international political influence, a certain tendency to bash what they term "Indic", a persistent refusal to similarly bash the Islamists or the EJ's, a much softer attitude of criticism -sometimes non-existent - towards the congress-left end of the organized political spectrum. This total group-think delusion almost always converges towards a position of investment+concessions towards Islamist demands of the Valley, and a rather shameless attitude of hatred and bash-up towards nationalist demands or expressions of sense of possession and rights to Kashmir too.

For all those who are trying to defend "diversity" of views - should remember that this particular p-sec group-think shows little or no tolerance for alternatives to their own viewpoint - something that should be obvious in the whole intensely vituperative sequence of posts bashing up the effort to raise the tiranga at Srinagar.

That sequence should illustrate what p-sec group think implies, and which side this group-think chooses when it comes to taking sides on straightforward national issues concerning Islamists and Pak - but issues which appear in more subtle ways than whether Paki war-efforts are supportable or not. p-sec group think will not say directly that it does not want Pak to be destroyed and to be protected - but it will give indirect argumenst about how any war with Pak will slow down India's march towards "prosperity and growth". Same will be the argument for a more "nuanced" treatment of Islamist demands in the valley when it comes to dealing with Islamists as a whole [no such nuanced approach for the "majority community" - who are to be constantly clubbed together in every other sentence as "loonies"].

The use of the word "loony" always with one particular "community" and never with other "communities" shows tolerance of "diversity" gentlemen?

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 22 Jul 2011 08:34

i have a n00b query

Since it has been reported that pakistan's modus-operandi in Faigate was to ask ~~effluent~~ affluent pakistani-origin Americans to make a payment towards Fai, which was later reimbursed through a transaction via a Hawala route, that is illegal in the USA, wouldn't the US Govt also go after these recipients of hawala money?

Scanning the papers for such news. None so far.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Jul 2011 08:35

amit wrote:Vera_K wrote that he believes "elements within INC" knew about 26/11. Yet they did nothing to prevent it or at least minimise the casualties, as subsequent events show. Now people on BRF, including senior members, may be happy to make a distinction between "elements within INC" and the GoI run by the same INC. However, I doubt that outside readers would make such a distiction.

Since this is about my comment. I don't see what is so difficult about understanding the difference between the two. In fact, I would say many if not most Indians would not make the distinction seeing how they are close enough to the problem to lose objectivity. But outside readers are quite capable of understanding the distinction, and you see this in the usual routine where the GoI accuses Pak/ISI, but foreign governments say "show me the proof that connects them".

As for the "believes" bit, I am not an investigative agency. I can connect the dots and write letters, but beyond that it is up to the FBI.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 22 Jul 2011 08:39

Hiten wrote:i have a n00b query

Since it has been reported that pakistan's modus-operandi in Faigate was to ask ~~effluent~~ affluent pakistani-origin Americans to make a payment towards Fai, which was later reimbursed through a transaction via a Hawala route, that is illegal in the USA, wouldn't the US Govt also go after these recipients of hawala money?

Scanning the papers for such news. None so far.

More likely that USA is withdrawing protection - selectively as parts of a wider retaliatory muscle flexing. USA appears to be partly bluffing, but what it wants is a more compliant Paki regime, and it could be dead serious about a regime change. Note that regime change is NOT == to change in the basic attitude of Paki "p-nationalism" which is about hatred of the Kafir across the eastern line of control in western India.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 22 Jul 2011 08:50

Thanks Jupiter Sir. It makes a lot of sense, especially the partial bluff & compliance part

OTOH, GoI's silence on Faigate is deafening, to say the least

ISI made a $250 USD contribution to Obama's campaign fund

)

http://www.firstpost.com/world/pakistan ... 44860.html

US must accept all that money pakistan is offering it, without any obligation to honor any commitments it makes in lieu of the offering. Giving back your own money as payment for favors granted - quite a scheme ISI had in place

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Jul 2011 08:54

amit wrote:Vera_K wrote that he believes "elements within INC" knew about 26/11. Yet they did nothing to prevent it or at least minimise the casualties, as subsequent events show. Now people on BRF, including senior members, may be happy to make a distinction between "elements within INC" and the GoI run by the same INC. However, I doubt that outside readers would make such a distiction.

In view of this, my point was that such CTs (it is a CT because the statement has the disclaimer I mentioned above) should not be discussed on this thread (do note I did not say this should not be discussed at all) due to its high profile and the fact that many Paklurks visit the thread. My concern was that this allegation just feeds into the Pak propaganda that 26/11 was done by Indians. I felt there were other, more appropriate, threads to discuss this.

Amit, first point is that the respect that the governing party gets on this forum is directly linked to the respect and courtesy that it accords the opposition on the same 'treasonable matters'. So it is upto the governing party to set the standards for the rest of the country - and you and I are both aware of the INC's 'path-breaking' standards in this regard. The point of whether the CT can be brought up at all is completely settled - the governing party sets the standard and this forum will follow.

Secondly, as regards the appropriate thread you do have a more valid point. But I can't think of any other thread where this matter will not be OT as well...so inspite of the admitted fact that there are other drawbacks to such talk - all I can say is that this forum cannot be immune from the effects of the governing party's own spectacular 'self-goals', played out on a much wider canvas.

munna · Post by **munna** » 22 Jul 2011 09:05

brihaspati wrote:
One of the problems of the p-sec group think is that it can create an atmosphere of self-delusion - by which individual members think that they can clear a path towards "peace and prosperity" based on pseudo-Marxian pseudo-secular propaganda. In the process they may lead the nation into greater dangers.

+1

The concerned poster has been rightly chided by Ramanaji! The so called conspiracy theorists and "loonies" (somehow they are never from any other community, a clear case of flame baiting and communal insinuations by particular poster) have been proven right on twin counts of Radia-Media expose and ISI funding of our liberal circuit. In short a lot of self delusional propaganda stands exposed but we are still trying to find fault with messenger a la Delhi police that is busy trying to implicate opposition MPs in cash for vote scam.

Any attempt to defend the indefensible even while claiming to not do so is simply an insult to the other members of the forum. Posters have been banned and warned for far less offensive things, he has not contributed but the p-sec group think to the forum. while nobody should be banned in interest of plurality of voices, such tender mercies should also be extended in future to posters with non p-sec views. If association with ISI is defensible then let us be large hearted to consider voices too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2011 09:30

and where the US follows can its faithfool retainer UK be far behind? this is definitely a high level directive from POTUS level to withdraw some of the political cover these serpents have been enjoying in West

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 317350.cms

LONDON/NEW DELHI: The Scotland Yard on Thursday initiated a probe into the activities and financing of London-based Kashmir lobby group, Justice Foundation, suspected to be a front of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence, according to a source in the agency.

The revelation comes a day after the Kashmiri American Council director in Washington DC, Ghulam Nabi Fai, was arrested by the FBI. India will soon write to UK and Belgium to initiate similar action against "Kashmir Centres" in London and Brussels.

A Scotland Yard spokesman told TOI, "We can confirm we are liaising with US authorities."

The British home ministry said it was probably not an offence under UK laws for lobbyists to be under-written by a foreign government or any of its agencies. "To the best of our knowledge, it is not," said a spokesman. This means police and the Crown Prosecution Service will have to take recourse to some other legislation if they proceed against Justice Foundation.

Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai (62) and Zaheer Khan (63), both US citizens, were charged with conspiring to act as agents of a foreign power in violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act of US.

In the US, it's a crime to lobby by using money from an overseas regime.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Jul 2011 09:32

I am a little Johnny come late to advocating the following attitude, aber ich muss auch mein Senf dazu geben. (I too need to add my mustard to it)!

Till date, the pseudo-secularists have been successful in painting mainstream Indic thinking and Indian nationalism as ultra-conservative right-wing fascists...., at least in the major media groups. They made it a point to push this Indic center over the cliff of acceptable Indian narrative.

This unmasking of Fai, has given the Indian nationalists a vital hammer to hit everyone who had been hobnobbing with KAC and "Kashmir Azadi" amongst the pseudo-liberals and the pseudo-secularists. No quarter should be given, and all of them without any exceptions need to painted as ISI-stooges. It matters not whether just went there for the party bash, business-class travel, or shopping or whatever, whether they went there for their 'heart-felt' concerns about human-rights in Kashmir, whether they went there because they 'truly believe' in the right of people to self-determination, or whether they went there as Track-II (III, IV) diplomacy.

They have given their best shot at pushing us over the cliff, and the Indic-Centrism Believers and Indian Nationalists too must retaliate in the same away, by using a very broad brush to paint all p-secs as ISI-stooges. The fact, that UPA-I did not retaliate after the terror attacks on India, everything plays to this narrative.

This process should be started with all of Fai's Facebook Friends, KAC (means 'to shit' in German BTW) visitors, and so on. Everybody with a Hindu name who has indulged in the above is a fair target. No mercy!

However the p-sec thinking crowd is networked with the world, and this networking is important. I am also of the belief that many among them really believe that their thinking is really in the best interests of India, and they are not party to the treason of the p-sec leadership, but simply share the ideology.

This crowd needs to be sensitivized to the real nationalist thinking. They need to be adopted and integrated in time.

And the right model to use is the 'Islamist-Sufi model'.

Overthrow them from power.
Force them to stop their criticism of the Nationalists.
Force them to acknowledge certain main tenets of Nationalism.
Keep them under leash, put pressure on them, and give them a few kicks on their nuts every now and then, just to make sure they know who is the boss.
Force them to grin when they get their punishment.
Otherwise leave them to their narrative, global-networking, and peddling India's soft-image abroad.

And then there was some saying of keeping one's enemies close.... Perhaps the p-secs on BRF also bring in some similar somewhat agnostic crowd to BRF, who then end up getting enlightened in the ways of nationalist thought.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 22 Jul 2011 09:33

Hiten wrote:Thanks Jupiter Sir. It makes a lot of sense, especially the partial bluff & compliance part

OTOH, GoI's silence on Faigate is deafening, to say the least

ISI made a $250 USD contribution to Obama's campaign fund )

http://www.firstpost.com/world/pakistan ... 44860.html

from the article- on dan burton

The Boy Scouts of America? Really? No, Congressman. Since your venomous words have over the decades provided the political cover for Pakistani-sponsored terrorism in Kashmir and the forced displacement of Kashmiri Pandits from the State, the least you owe is to make over those campaign funds to the Kashmiri Overseas Association USA, which among other things provides assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Jul 2011 09:38

Singha wrote:In the US, it's a crime to lobby by using money from an overseas regime.

Very useful law from a security standpoint....need to have an equivalent law put in place in India.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Jul 2011 09:46

shiv wrote:It would seem like this is a good time for India to win some Paki hearts, unsavory as that may seem. But given that India is starting from a negative score where there is an active hatred of India in Pakistan (and also a resultant hatred for Pakis among mango Indians) the possibility of influencing mango Paki Abduls to become pro-India seems remote. The best we might get out of this is to lie low and let the hatred burn out. Pakistan is now not fully in anyone's control.

Shiv ji, I fully agree. Its never a bad time to pry open Paki minds and hearts. There are a variety of ways to do this, and there is no loss to us -- unless this task is left to the sellout WKK types. For this not to happen, sane and well-rooted Indians need to leverage our economic, societal and civilizational strengths in order to literally "grow the Paki mind out of Pakiness."

Pakiness is a 2D idealogy, Indic culture is multidimensional. We have to create a story that does the job for us. And because our civilization is kaleidoscopic, one story within another (sort of like the Bhagavatam), we ourselves will never be trapped within any given story. But the story they imbibe will unravel their narcissistic pseudo-identity.

Pakis need to be made to see that they are estranged from their true identity due to a neurotic infidelity that is all their own. They can choose to come to this realization, defect back and experience transformational humility, or persist in their stubborn defiance and experience suicidal humiliation. The choice is between humility and humiliation.

Mainstream right-thinking Indians need to develop the capacity to envelope the Pakis in such a mind-space and conquer minds and hearts. We need a genuine liberal segment of society that is prepared to boldly invent and spin new interpretations, new stories, new bridges. Otherwise an effort to win hearts will only be monopolized by ingratiating, dhimmi WKK sellouts.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 22 Jul 2011 09:50

Now unkil has felled fai on some law to tighten the screws on TSP. It knew all along that fai was a ISI frontman but did nothing as it was a nice handle on India also. icing on the cake was the leftist liberal pseudo secular indians dancing with the pakis.
with TSP not guboing as expected Fai is sacrificed. Recall the watertight case- means Fai was given a long rope to hang himself to be a useful bakra on unkil tsp tamasha.
Beauty of unkil legal system is once wheels turn it turns fully crushing others in its path.

Unkil being the benefactor for all these liberals, so collateral damage is these so called lefty liberals pseudo secular ones.
Despite GOI knowing that Fai is a frontman for ISI could do little regarding liberals hijacking the Indian identity, tearing it to shreds in foreign influential circles. The liberals had their way in and out of GOI.
One redeeming feature of these mofos is their dependence on the west. All their liberal stance comes from west support. According to these lefties any one with nationalist ideals is branded as rightists/hindutva/ etc even if he is 1 degree to the left.