India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

[vishvak]

^^ Agree with Philip. Those who were killed weren't connected to PMANE, but were caught in another tussle with villagers elsewhere. And how come leaders of PMANE go unpunished while activists are arrested. Such loose law and order situations with leaders not getting arrested, bomb making and such misused more in other tussles and so on - what a ridiculous bunch of events under one excuse or another.

[KLP Dubey]

Rivalry among fishermen led to Idinthakarai explosions

A fine example of how accepting the blessings of Hesoos (from fair-skinned angels and their dark-skinned emissaries) leads to wonderfully enlightened actions among the blessed populace.

No wonder Kudankulam area of south TN is so much more developed and educated than the idolatrous Hindoo hellhole of south KL just across the border.

[kish]

Usual whine about uranium enrichment, but the pdf contains 3 pictures of progress made since 2011.

Construction Finishing of Likely New Indian Centrifuge Facility at Rare Materials Plant

Efforts to Build a Larger Centrifuge Complex Encounter Opposition
David Albright and Serena Kelleher
-
Vergantini
December 4, 2013
Commercial satellite imagery shows that the construction is finishing of what appears to be a second gas centrifuge facility at the Rare Materials Plant (RMP), near Mysore. This new facility could significantly increase India’s ability to produce highly enriched uranium for military purposes, including more powerful nuclear weapons. India is also in the early stages of building a larger unsafeguarded centrifuge complex, the Special Material Enrichment Facility (SMEF), in Karnataka. However, as a result of domestic
opposition alleging this facility is on environmentally sensitive lands, the National Green Tribunal, the government environmental oversight body, ordered major construction to halt temporarily in August 2013.Moreover, India’s enrichment plants are not under international safeguards or committed to peaceful uses. Thus, governments and suppliers of nuclear and nuclear related dual use goods throughout the world should be vigilant to prevent efforts by Indian trading and manufacturing companies to acquire such goods for the new centrifuge complex in Karnataka as well as for the RMP

[SSridhar]

Of course, India needs enriched Uranium for various reasons like nuclear powered submarines etc. What is there to report in this well known fact ? Nobody can stop India from producing enriched U.

[vishvak]

[quote>>>
No wonder Kudankulam area of south TN is so much more developed and educated than the idolatrous Hindoo hellhole of south KL just across the border.
[/quote]

Didn't Englishman Winston Churchill say something about independence of Indian colony from British Raaj. He didn't say that such behaviour will be bankrolled by EU/USA.

For Hindoos, he had other lines:

I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.

[ashish raval]

^^ can we not make shape of buildings on nuclear power station to look like middle finger if spied upon from space by Yankees, just a subtle message to friend with khujli ?

[chetak]

^^ can we not make shape of buildings on nuclear power station to look like middle finger if spied upon from space by Yankees, just a subtle message to friend with khujli ?

The very existence of India is a gigantic middle finger, raval ji.

[chetak]

INDIA'S NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS KEEP DYING MYSTERIOUSLY

By Joseph Cox


Indian nuclear scientists haven't had an easy time of it over the past decade. Not only has the scientific community been plagued by "suicides," unexplained deaths, and sabotage, but those incidents have gone mostly underreported in the country—diluting public interest and leaving the cases quickly cast off by police.

Last month, two high-ranking engineers—KK Josh and Abhish Shivam—on India's first nuclear-powered submarine were found on railway tracks by workers. They were pulled from the line before a train could crush them, but were already dead. No marks were found on the bodies, so it was clear they hadn't been hit by a moving train, and reports allege they were poisoned elsewhere before being placed on the tracks to make the deaths look either accidental or like a suicide. The media and the Ministry of Defence, however, described the incident as a routine accident and didn't investigate any further.

This is the latest in a long list of suspicious deaths. When nuclear scientist Lokanathan Mahalingam's body turned up in June of 2009, it was palmed off as a suicide and largely ignored by the Indian media. However, Pakistani outlets, perhaps unsurprisingly, given relations between the two countries, kept the story going, noting how quick authorities were to label the death a suicide considering no note was left.

Five years earlier, in the same forest where Mahalingham's body was eventually discovered, an armed group with sophisticated weaponry allegedly tried to abduct an official from India's Nuclear Power Corporation (NPC). He, however, managed to escape. Another NPC employee, Ravi Mule, had been murdered weeks before, with police failing to "make any headway" into his case and effectively leaving his family to investigate the crime. A couple of years later, in April of 2011, when the body of former scientist Uma Rao was found, investigators ruled the death as suicide, but family members contested the verdict, saying there had been no signs that Rao was suicidal.


Trombay, the site of India's first atomic reactor. (Photo via)

This seems to be a recurring theme with deaths in the community. Madhav Nalapat, one of the few journalists in India giving the cases any real attention, has been in close contact with the families of the recently deceased scientists left on the train tracks. "There was absolutely no kind of depression or any family problems that would lead to suicide," he told me over the phone.

If the deaths of those in the community aren't classed as suicide, they're generally labeled as "unexplained." A good example is the case of M Iyer, who was found with internal haemorrhaging to his skull—possibly the result of a "kinky experiment," according to a police officer. After a preliminary look-in, the police couldn't work out how Iyer had suffered internal injuries while not displaying any cuts or bruises, and investigations fizzled out.

This label is essentially admission of defeat on the police force's part. Once the "unexplained" rubber stamp has been approved, government bodies don't tend to task the authorities with investigating further. This may be a necessity due to the stark lack of evidence available at the scene of the deaths—a feature that some suggest could indicate the work of professional killers—but if this is the case, why not bring in better trained detectives to investigate the cases? A spate of deaths in the nuclear scientific community would create a media storm and highly publicised police investigation in other countries, so why not India?

This inertia has led to great public dissatisfaction with the Indian police. "[The police] say it's an unsolved murder, that's all. Why doesn't it go higher? Perhaps to a specialist investigations unit?" Madhav asked. "These people were working on the submarine program, creating a reactor, and have either 'committed suicide' or been murdered. It's astonishing that this hasn't been seen as suspicious."

Perhaps, I suggested, this series of deaths is just the latest chapter in a long campaign aiming to derail India's nuclear and technological capabilities. Madhav agreed, "There is a clear pattern of this type of activity going on," he said.


INS Sindhurakshak (Photo via)

The explosions that sunk INS Sindhurakshak – a submarine docked in Mumbai – in August of this year could have been deliberate, according to unnamed intelligence sources. And some have alleged that the CIA was behind the sabotage of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).

Of course, the deaths have caused fear and tension among those currently working on India's various nuclear projects. "[Whistleblowers] are getting scared of being involved in the nuclear industry in India," Madhav relayed to me. Their "families are getting very nervous about this" and "many of them leave for foreign countries and get other jobs."

There are parallels here with the numerous attacks on the Iranian nuclear scientist community. Five people associated with the country's nuclear programme have been targeted in the same way: men on motorcycles sticking magnetic bombs on to their cars and detonating them as they drive off. However, the Iranian government are incredibly vocal in condemning these acts—blaming the US and Israel—and at least give the appearance that they are actively investigating.

The same cannot be said for the Indian government. "India is not making any noise about the whole thing," Madhav explained. "People have just accepted the police version, [which describes these incidents] as normal kinds of death."

If the deaths do, in fact, turn out to be premeditated murders, deciding who's responsible is pure speculation at this point. Two authors have alleged that the US have dabbled in sabotaging the country's technological efforts in the past; China is in a constant soft-power battle with India; and the volatile relationship with Pakistan makes the country a prime suspect. "It could be any of them," Madhav said.

But the most pressing issue isn't who might be behind the murders, but that the Indian government's apathy is potentially putting their high-value staff at even greater risk. Currently, these scientists, who are crucial to the development of India's nuclear programes, whether for energy or security, have "absolutely no protection at all. Nothing, zero," Madhav told me. "Which is amazing for people who are in a such a sensitive program."

@josephfcox

[Hiten]

what design is this?

via http://www.aame.in/2013/12/can-you-iden ... -quiz.html

[Philip]

The despicable treatment of the Indian lady diplomat underscores the true intentions of the US towards India,pure poison.We should unilaterally tear up the Indo-US N-treaty signed under dubious circumstances and boot out all US agencies who have been allowed to operate in India.The time is also overdue for "Durga to smile".

[rsingh]

The despicable treatment of the Indian lady diplomat underscores the true intentions of the US towards India,pure poison.We should unilaterally tear up the Indo-US N-treaty signed under dubious circumstances and boot out all US agencies who have been allowed to operate in India.The time is also overdue for "Durga to smile".

I see this again and again. Why do people think that India has to test nuclear bomb just to annoy US? It is very strange logic. We have to do tests if we need to do so to varify and enhance our nuclear capabilities and not to punish somebody.

[Theo_Fidel]

Hiten,

That is the Sodium PFBR being built @ Kalpakkam.
There are a couple of oddities about it though that make me unsure.

The SS liner vessel is to be suspended not set into the concrete liner. For thermal expansion purposes IIRC.
Also there is quite a bit of super structure design that is missing.

[ramana]

Theo, Are your sure? It looks like a PWR to me.

[SaiK]

Is IHX intelligent? or inter-something? heat exchanger? and not steam driven?

fast reactor?

[Theo_Fidel]

A PWR would not have the blue Air gap? at the top. Well at least operationally.
The two pumps lowered into the well are a dead give away.

Definitely a metal cooled reactor. Pumps are needed inside cavity to recirculate the fluid.
There are many many sodium reactor designs however so I'm unclear if this is exactly the PFBR design.
Maybe early version?

BTW another thing missing is the drain plug at the bottom in case of a vessel split.

[RoyG]

We should begin experimenting with lead fast reactors and MRS types. Safer designs.

[chaanakya]

x-posted

Cost of nuclear power proving high, DAE in a fix

NEW DELHI: As the cost of electricity generation by nuclear power plants, to be set up with the help of French and American companies, is turning out to be on the higher side, the department of atomic energy is in a fix over how to bring down the cost.

On one hand, it is involved in hard negotiations with the companies and on the other hand, sources said, if the cost per unit turns out to be too expensive, then it may not even pursue the project with collaborators.

The estimated cost by the DAE for Jaitapur Nuclear Power Plant (JNPP) in Maharashtra is around Rs 9 per unit while the cost for Mithi Virdhi Nuclear Power Project is around Rs 12 per unit.
.....
.....

The DAE is skeptical about the proposal due to its high cost. It states that the cost per unit from the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant (KKNPP) unit 1 and 2 is around Rs 3.50 to Rs 4 per unit.

"If we take inflation into consideration, even then the cost is very high. We are also answerable to people. Plus, there is a lot of opposition to nuclear projects where we have foreign collaborators.

If nothing works out, then we will, perhaps, have to back out because of the high electricity generation cost from the project," a senior DAE official said.

[Philip]

Simple answer.Set up more Koodamkulam type reactors and dump the French and Yanquis with their snake-oil N-systems and build our own!

[RoyG]

Simple answer.Set up more Koodamkulam type reactors and dump the French and Yanquis with their snake-oil N-systems and build our own!

This may perhaps be the best solution. Build a few sodium fast breeder reactors and in the mean time expand the PHWR program and begin designing and then constructing 1000+ MW PHWR types. I would also begin research on lead fast reactors, MSR reactors, laser enrichment, nuclear waste reprocessing and pour money and research into nuclear desalination plants and construct them all along the coast.

[svenkat]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Prashant-Bhushan-assures-AAPs-support-to-agitation-against-Kudankulam-nuclear-plant/articleshow/28109983.cms

[vishvak]

What a contradiction. Why can't AAP demonstrate against USA nuke reactors, after all PMANE seem to be local front while AAP is in Delhi. Especially, when cost per unit of power for brand new nuke tech is much less than that of decades old nuke tech from USA.

AAP seem to have forgotten cost aspect out of dilli when in dilli promises were about lower rates.

[ramana]

The despicable treatment of the Indian lady diplomat underscores the true intentions of the US towards India,pure poison.We should unilaterally tear up the Indo-US N-treaty signed under dubious circumstances and boot out all US agencies who have been allowed to operate in India.The time is also overdue for "Durga to smile".

I see this again and again. Why do people think that India has to test nuclear bomb just to annoy US? It is very strange logic. We have to do tests if we need to do so to varify and enhance our nuclear capabilities and not to punish somebody.

rsingh, Its the US that imposed the NPT which excluded India from the select club by introducing the cut-off date as 1968. Later after 1974 PNE, they created the London Supplier Group which is now called NSG. All along in the 1980s, they looked with a Nelsonian (blind eye) eye at Chinese transfer of nuke weapons to TSP and thus raised the cost on Indian security. Meantime they had the gall to accuse India of proliferation while it was their minons who were merrily proliferating all over the world. AQK stole German centrifuge technology and gave it to PRC. PRC nuke weapon designs were given with dry cleaning wrap to Iran, Libya and so forth.

Its no wonder the DRDO had named the S-1 shaft//tunnel as White House in black humor.

[Prem]

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy ... 389810413/
India and South Korea to cooperate on nuclear power?

DELHI, Jan. 15 (UPI) -- South Korean President Park Geun-hye is expected to seek nuclear power deals during her four-day state visit to India, which began Wednesday. "South Korea has a track record of successfully building and operating nuclear power plants. There has been no major accidents in Korea since commercial operations began in 1978. Korea can be a good partner for India in its nuclear business," Park told India's Doordarshan TV last week. The two countries inked a civilian nuclear pact in 2011. Since taking office in February, the South Korean president has vowed to support domestic companies' exports of nuclear plants and equipment, reports the Wall Street Journal. So far, South Korea has inked one overseas reactor deal, a $20 billion contract in 2009 to build four reactors in the United Arab Emirates. Meanwhile, it has faced competition from bigger rivals, including Japan, France and Russia. South Korea, which ranks fifth globally in terms of electricity generation from nuclear power, operates 23 commercial nuclear reactors. Last year, nuclear power accounted for 26 percent of the country's total power supply. .
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, at a ceremony Monday to lay the foundation stone for a 2,800 megawatt nuclear power plant in Gorakhpur, in the state of Uttar Pradesh, noted that India now has an installed capacity of 4,800 megawatts of nuclear power generation and aims to increase that to 27,000 megawatts within the next decade. "To meet our energy needs and in particular to increase the production of nuclear power, we need international cooperation," he said. Park's predecessor, Lee Myung-bak, officially raised the issue of South Korea building a nuclear power plant in India during a meeting with Singh in 2012. Seoul indicated its interest in building a nuclear plant in India during a recent visit to India by a delegation from its ministry of science, Press Trust of India reports.
"Like India, Korea too has developed its own nuclear technology and there are many aspects of cooperation, which India is looking at to start with," an unnamed Indian official was quoted as saying by Press Trust Monday. "We are primarily looking at cooperation in research and development." Press Trust cited another official as saying that cost-wise, South Korea is more competitive than what the United States or the French are offering, but India wants to proceed slowly because of pending projects. India's current nuclear power projects are running behind schedule.

[Prem]

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 337_1.html
Deal for phase 3-4 of Kudankulam nuke project almost finalised

India has almost finalised the deal with Russia for the phase 3 and 4 of Kudankulam nuclear power project in Tamil Nadu, Minister of State for Atomic Energy V Narayanasamy said today. "Negotiations with Russian government have almost crystallised," he told reporters at the AICC headquarters indicating that the agreement could be signed soon. The proposed reactors at Kudankulam will generate 1000 MW electricity each. Land acquisition for the Jaitapur nuclear power project has been completed and the issue of "little more" compensation has been resolved and now construction will start, he said, adding that negotiations were on with France's Areva for the equipment.
Replying to questions, he agreed with a questioner that the nuclear liability law passed by Parliament was becoming a "liability" while negotiating with different countries for reactors."As regards buying equipment, we explain to them. Some agree, some do not. We will have to go by the law. We have to respect it. We are convincing them. It will take time .... We will succeed," he said. He said signing of the nuclear cooperation agreement with the US has helped India in getting fuel for the reactors in "sufficient" quantity. Noting that the cost of some of the countries selling nuclear reactors did not suit India, he said that was why hard bargaining was on and that takes time. He said talks with the US were on. Emphasising that nuclear power was cheap, he said government sells power from Kalpakkam at 67 paise per unit and that from Tarapur at Rs 1.15.

[chaanakya]

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 337_1.html
Deal for phase 3-4 of Kudankulam nuke project almost finalised

India has almost finalised the deal with Russia for the phase 3 and 4 of Kudankulam nuclear power project in Tamil Nadu, Minister of State for Atomic Energy V Narayanasamy said today. "Negotiations with Russian government have almost crystallised," he told reporters at the AICC headquarters indicating that the agreement could be signed soon. The proposed reactors at Kudankulam will generate 1000 MW electricity each. Land acquisition for the Jaitapur nuclear power project has been completed and the issue of "little more" compensation has been resolved and now construction will start, he said, adding that negotiations were on with France's Areva for the equipment.
Replying to questions, he agreed with a questioner that the nuclear liability law passed by Parliament was becoming a "liability" while negotiating with different countries for reactors."As regards buying equipment, we explain to them. Some agree, some do not. We will have to go by the law. We have to respect it. We are convincing them. It will take time .... We will succeed," he said. He said signing of the nuclear cooperation agreement with the US has helped India in getting fuel for the reactors in "sufficient" quantity. Noting that the cost of some of the countries selling nuclear reactors did not suit India, he said that was why hard bargaining was on and that takes time. He said talks with the US were on. Emphasising that nuclear power was cheap, he said government sells power from Kalpakkam at 67 paise per unit and that from Tarapur at Rs 1.15.

on the contrary

Cost of nuclear power proving high, DAE in a fix

NEW DELHI: As the cost of electricity generation by nuclear power plants, to be set up with the help of French and American companies, is turning out to be on the higher side, the department of atomic energy is in a fix over how to bring down the cost.

On one hand, it is involved in hard negotiations with the companies and on the other hand, sources said, if the cost per unit turns out to be too expensive, then it may not even pursue the project with collaborators.

The estimated cost by the DAE for Jaitapur Nuclear Power Plant (JNPP) in Maharashtra is around Rs 9 per unit while the cost for Mithi Virdhi Nuclear Power Project is around Rs 12 per unit.
.....
.....

The DAE is skeptical about the proposal due to its high cost. It states that the cost per unit from the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant (KKNPP) unit 1 and 2 is around Rs 3.50 to Rs 4 per unit.

"If we take inflation into consideration, even then the cost is very high. We are also answerable to people. Plus, there is a lot of opposition to nuclear projects where we have foreign collaborators.

If nothing works out, then we will, perhaps, have to back out because of the high electricity generation cost from the project," a senior DAE official said.

[arun]

X Posted from the International Nuclear Watch thread.

What was the purpose of India executing complex agreements for importing nuclear power reactors when the same countries that insisted that India go through with the rigmarole of complying with the nuclear export framework of the Nuclear Supplier Group by negotiating an exception does not insist that P.R.China adhere to the same complex agreement before export of nuclear power reactors to Pakistan?

How many more unilateral deviations are members of the Nuclear Supplier Group going to permit P.R.China?

Pakistan in Talks to Acquire 3 Nuclear Plants From China

[Philip]

Absolutely! We severed our civilian N-resources from those with mil. connections for what> The P-5 turning a blind eye to the Sino-Pak proliferation?

Here is Raja Menon questioning our N-doctrine.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... epage=true
X-Posted om the missile td.

India intends to deter nuclear use by Pakistan while Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are meant to compensate for conventional arms asymmetry.

Manufacturing a nuclear weapon does not, as a senior Indian Minister in 1998 claimed, create credible deterrence. Deterrence is entirely a matter of perceptions, a mental effect that is created on the adversary that nuclear use will entail assured retaliatory holocaust. The possibility of nuclear use is thereby pre-empted. The Indian nuclear doctrine, in that sense, is well articulated — on paper. Since 1998, more than 15 years have passed and in the Indian sub-continent, nuclear arsenals have grown far beyond the small nuclear ambitions that were articulated then. Yet there is an increasing fund of world literature being published, pointing to structural and operational weaknesses in the Indian nuclear arsenal. The question is not whether India has built enough nuclear bombs. Hardly anyone questions this basic fact, but the ideational systems that will ensure the ‘massive’ retaliation promised in the doctrine are being increasingly questioned by scholars and analysts worldwide. Pakistani observers cannot help but be swayed and dangerously influenced by such literature, thereby inducing them to think the unthinkable. What does not help in encouraging sober thinking is the fact that since the end of the Second World War, South Asia has seen the largest number of shooting wars in the world. So the questions of nuclear use will not arise in the quiet peace of neighbourly relations, but in the stress of combat over the Line of Control or the international border.
The 1998 test

Critics of the credibility of India’s nuclear arsenal begin with their doubts on the success of the thermo-nuclear test of 1998, which they claim was a ‘fizzle.’ There has been much toing-and-froing in technical journals, of the veracity, accuracy and interpretation of seismic readings. There has also been an occasional closed door briefing by select bomb makers — but surprisingly there has not been, to date, a clear unambiguous public statement from the right source about the country’s thermo-nuclear capacity being fielded in India’s nuclear arsenal. This is a matter of some negligence, considering that the only members of the scientific community who have spoken on this issue are deeply sceptical of the success of the thermo-nuclear test.

The command and control of nuclear forces are another area of criticism, and not surprisingly so, since India is the only nuclear weapon country without a Chief of Defence Staff to act as the interface between the Prime Minister, the National Command Authority and the military who ‘own’ the weapons — at least most of it. In the guise of safety, India’s nuclear weapons are not only ‘de-mated’ and the core and ignition device separated from the warhead, but the separate components are under different departmental control. The actual reason for this bizarre arrangement is quite obvious. There is a petty turf war, and neither the Department of Atomic Energy nor the DRDO is willing to let go of the controlling part of the bomb, even if it means a cumbersome and unnecessary loss of control. Needless to say, between the military, the DAE and the DRDO, none of them has any hierarchical control over the other two.

Other critics have written to say that having opted for road or rail mobile launching arrangements, India does not have the robust transport, road and rail infrastructure to move the missiles, warheads and cores from safe storage to launch hideouts and dispersal points with confidence and alacrity.

These weaknesses have led to critics stating that India’s nuclear capability is disaggregated and with weak institutional features. In the case of China, it is conceded that India feels more threatened by Chinese nuclear delivery than vice-versa. Yet, in the absence of the Agni long-range missiles, it is vaguely surmised that the Indian retaliatory capacity is based on air delivery weapons, which could mean anything — Mirages, Jaguars, Su 30s. The absence of the CDS results in even knowledgeable Indians conjecturing that the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) will completely bypass the military chain of command and operate directly under the PMO. This, of course, raises other more serious problems.

In the case of deterrence with Pakistan, it is accepted that the doctrines of the two countries are mismatched. India intends to deter nuclear use by Pakistan while Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are meant to compensate for conventional arms asymmetry. At the same time, Pakistan relies on 20,000 LeT cadres as an extension of its armed forces to create terror strikes, to which the Indian answer is to punish the Pakistani state with conventional war. Thus arises the vague and elastic concept of a nuclear threshold. Yet, the Indian National Command Authority is ill designed to manage the inevitable South Asian transition from conventional war to a possible nuclear exchange — or the frantic strategic signalling that is bound to occur as the threshold approaches.

If, for instance, the threshold was to materialise as a result of an armoured incursion, the Indian NCA by its location, composition and infrastructure would be entirely unaware of the impending catastrophe. Hanging untethered to any commanding authority, civilian or military, would be the Integrated Defence Staff, a well-staffed organisation designed for the civilian-military interface, but currently without a head, nor with any links to the SFC.

After much persuasion, there now exists a skeleton nuclear staff under the NSA, normally headed by the retired SFC. But while its Pakistani counterpart, the Strategic Plans Division (SPD), is highly active both on the domestic and international conference circuit, its Indian counterpart seems to be totally tongue tied, non-participatory and holed up at its desk. Foreign critics have noted the introduction of battlefield nuclear weapons in Pakistan’s arsenal and raised doubts of the likelihood of ‘massive’ retaliation in response to a small ‘warning’ shot by Islamabad. This is what the Indian doctrine promises. Life for the leaders of the strategic community would be easy if a doctrine, once written on paper, could be left unchanged for decades without reinforcement, to prove its validity.

That unfortunately is not the case in a dynamic field where the stakes are the survival of nations. Even K. Subramanyam had warned that ‘massive’ retaliation was an outmoded concept and difficult to enforce without periodic reinforcement. So this article is inspired not because India is not continuing to arm itself with bombs and missiles. This piece is inspired by the increasing clamour in international literature that India’s penchant for secrecy is ill-suited to conveying the stabilising threat of nuclear deterrence. Against China where our capabilities are undeveloped, a certain amount of ambiguity is sensible, but against a country which is openly wedded to first use, and is introducing battlefield weapons, an untended 10-year-old piece of paper is inadequate.
Signalling, overdue

Something needs to be done to reassure both the domestic and international audience that with high pressure terrorism lurking across the border, it is not just India’s strategic restraint that will keep the peace — as it did after Mumbai and the attack on Parliament. Nuclear signalling from the Indian government is hugely overdue, so much so that it will take some effort to restore stability to South Asian deterrence. The first target should be the Indian strategic community and there are enough discussions and conferences where officers from the SFC and nuclear staff could provide discrete assurances that things are not anarchic with India’s nuclear command and control.

The strategic community in turn will carry the message abroad or to foreign observers that in the face of Indian official silence, they need not imagine the worst. The establishment needs to do more than arrogantly refer to the doctrine as being the sole answer to all questions. In deterrence, only perceptions matter and there is a disturbing build-up of literature indicating that the disbelief of others in our nuclear command and control is in urgent need of correction.

(Raja Menon is a strategic analyst)

[NRao]

Hiten,

aame.in should be able to answer that. That image is familiar but cannot recall where I have seen it.

Theo,

Is that an "air plug" or an inert gas (argon plug?)

________________________

OK, the reason for my visit to this thread:

Q: A functioning reactor "discharges" "stuff". Hot water (from the cooling process), and what else? More specifically is there *any* radioactive material that is part of this discharge - knowingly? In India or elsewhere in the world?

[Amber G.]

OK, the reason for my visit to this thread:

Q: A functioning reactor "discharges" "stuff". Hot water (from the cooling process), and what else? More specifically is there *any* radioactive material that is part of this discharge - knowingly? In India or elsewhere in the world?

You may already know but in any case - Short answer is of course it does. Important part is how much.
(The emission/discharged are very diligently monitored)

Some radioactive fission gases, (from the reactor cooling water, held in decay tanks) gets "vented" some are released during periodic "purges" and "ventings...Waste (typically consists of contaminated protective shoe covers and clothing, wiping rags, mops, filters, reactor water treatment residues, etc) and of course stored spent nuclear fuel decaying under swimming pools etc.

I did talk in brf about a reactor in North Korea which had a broken sky light, frogs in reactor pool etc..

.... But as has been pointed out here multiple times, the total additional radiation from all this, if you live about 1 Km from a typical reactor, is about 1 bed (equivalent of eating 1 banana with K40, per year).

Of course, coal plants also emit radioactivity (mostly due to Th and U in the coal dust) which is typically about 100x time more than nuclear reactors..

Used nuclear fuel is, of course very radioactive and its discharge is dangerous.

[ramana]

Some trace nuclides from leakages in coolant pipes. Not knowingly.

[KLP Dubey]

Used nuclear fuel is, of course very radioactive and its discharge is dangerous.

Indeed. Nuclear power generation is a pretty mature technology and there is very little radioactive "leakage" of significance during normal functioning of a reactor.

Much larger hazards associated with SNF and its reprocessing...many technological issues remain in that area.

[NRao]

I was reading an article, written by one Nithyanada (I think) (had hair like the *original* one too). In that he says, in Inglish, that once the reactor, in TN, goes critical, that the water in sea will go/become "critical". I assume he did not really understand the meaning of the word "critical" in the context of a nuclear reactor and that he meant that the discharge would be polluted and from the PoV of pollution it was "critical".

He went on to write that the fisher folks business would decline, etc, etc, etc.

Let us see.

____________________

What is up with this AAP and their nuclear stance? Bhushan seems to imply that they are anti-nuclear power. Concerning.

[ramana]

So ityour question is related to Kudankulam by the sea.

There is a power plant in Massachusetts, the discharge from the plant warms the waters upto 50 miles away and that is detrimental to fish life.
This is a fact.

[NRao]

Well, there are plenty of reactors by water - inherently advantageous.

The question was - based on the article I read - how much was true. I found it hard to believe that *all* governments, in order to supply affordable electricity, would allow pollution of their fisheries. And, I am not talking of the banana type of pollutants here.

Yes, this article was related to Kudankulam, but my question was more generic.

[Amber G.]

N Rao, for perspective:




Also See cumulative reactor years that we have data:



For perspective, Latest Fukushima - worse disaster meltdown by any account - result

Death toll so far: (One stress related heart attack)
Deaths from radiation (in the worst possible event conceivable for a reactor with a containment system): zero.
Expected deaths from radiation: zero.
Measured cancers, above normal rates in last 2 years after extensive medical followup : "NOT statically measurable"

(This is 30+ year old reactors with in a natural disaster which killed 1000's in non-radiation related causes)

With 100's of reactors in last 50 years, in US (or in India), the "discharge" has caused 0 deaths/sickness/cancer etc..

As said before, the TOTAL radiation health effect from a typical 1 GW reactor, if you living a few Km from it is of the order of a microSv ( about what 1 banana's K40 will give).

TMI (biggest nuclear accident in US) has been studied very thoroughly and NO measurable health effect was measured.

[Amber G.]

Here is some useful data, it is VERY IMPORTANT that every desh bhakt reads it and understand the risk. I am quoting Dr. Bernard Cohen, a bit old data, but ANY standard reputable data collected will not be too different from below:

LOSS OF LIFE EXPECTANCY (LLE) DUE TO VARIOUS RISKS

TABLE 1
Activity or risk* LLE (days)
Living in poverty 3500
Being male (vs. female) 2800
Cigarettes (male) 2300
Heart disease* 2100
Being unmarried 2000
Being black (vs. white) 2000
Socioeconomic status low 1500
Working as a coal miner 1100
Cancer* 980
30-lb overweight 900
Grade school dropout 800
Sub-optimal medical care* 550
Stroke* 520
15-lb overweight 450
All accidents* 400
Vietnam army service 400
Living in Southeast (SC,MS,GA,LA,AL) 350
Mining construction (accidents only) 320
Alcohol* 230
Motor vehicle accidents 180
Pneumonia, influenza* 130
Drug abuse* 100
Suicide* 95
Homicide* 90
Air pollution* 80
Occupational accidents 74
AIDS* 70
Small cars (vs. midsize) 60
Married to smoker 50
Drowning* 40
Speed limit: 65 vs. 55 miles per hour* 40
Falls* 39
Poison + suffocation + asphyxiation* 37
Radon in homes* 35
Fire, burns* 27
Coffee: 2 cups/day 26
Radiation worker, age 18-65 25
Firearms* 11
Birth control pills 5
All electricity nuclear (UCS)* 1.5
Peanut butter (1 Tbsp./day) 1.1
Hurricanes, tornadoes* 1
Airline crashes* 1
Dam failures* 1
Living near nuclear plant 0.4
All electricity nuclear (NRC)* 0.04

[disha]

So ityour question is related to Kudankulam by the sea.

There is a power plant in Massachusetts, the discharge from the plant warms the waters upto 50 miles away and that is detrimental to fish life.
This is a fact.

Ramana sir, I think the above is urban legend. Here is why., let us say 50 miles away by say 1 ft wide and upto 1 foot (only 1 foot deep) the water temperature is raised by 1* C - converting it all into metrics - we are talking about raising a body of water 80,000 mtrs X 0.3 mtrs X 0.3 mtrs = 800x9 = 7200 cu. mtrs of water. - or @1000x7200 = 7200000 Kg of water by 1*C = 72x10^5 K.Cal of energy! This is equivalent to 8 MWh of wasted power!!

For the Ocean, that is peanuts.

For the power plant the wasted energy powers 800 Homes per hour. Are you sure that much of energy is wasted? And the calculations are extremely conservative! Since instead of 1 ft. wide say I use 3.3 ft wide (1 metre) and 1 mtr deep - we are talking about 80 MWh of loss

[Anand K]

As per MoEF, the mixing point temperature rise must be within 8 degrees and the plant has been designed to keep this under 7 degrees. The Thermal Plume of discharge of MAPS (Kalpakkam NPS) is a measly 1.3 sq. km and Kudankulam with more advanced design will have smaller profile. Also, the thermal effect is more important in colder climates where vertical delta-T is steeper and surface temperature also vary greatly with seasonal variances. The EIA also says that the MAPS differential drops from 8 degrees to 5 degrees just 200-300 away from outfall; the Met-Ocean studies of the area says that the drop may be even better in Kudankulam NPS.

[putnanja]

India to get fast breeder reactor in September

...
The first prototype breeder reactor will be commissioned in September 2014 in Kalpakkam, Tamil Nadu, and electricity from this 500 MW unit would be fed to the southern grid in the first half of 2015. This would be followed by construction of two more reactors of 500 MW capacity each at the same place.

“It is the fourth, which will test new waters. It would be a 500 MW breeder reactor with metallic fuel.

Every 8-10 years, the reactor will generate two tonnes of plutonium, which is good enough to start a new fast breeder reactor. It would be technology demonstration project,” P Chellapandi, scientist and director of the reactor design group at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam, told Deccan Herald.

The department of atomic energy, however, is yet to decide on the location of this next generation breeder reactor. India's nuclear programme is limited to indigenous pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWR) and imported light water reactor, first of which is operational at Kudankulam.

The first three breeder reactors will use a mixture of plutonium oxide and uranium oxide as fuel.

They will “breed” more fissile material than the fuel they consume by burning plutonium–generated in uranium-fuelled pressurised heavy water reactors and light water reactors–and converting the fuel’s uranium into plutonium.

The only other country building a large fast breeder reactor is Russia, whose 880 MW BN-800 FBR, too, is scheduled to go on-stream by April, 2014.

Since fast reactors use liquid sodium–a highly hazardous material–as coolant, there are wide-spread concerns on the safety of these reactors.

Asked about the reactor’s safety, Chellapandi said even in a remote case of sodium leakage, there would not be any safety implications because of double containment. “Any severe accident in a fast reactor is not possible because of the design,” he noted.

The technology demonstration reactor will have only metallic fuel without any oxide and will generate more plutonium in a relatively short time.

...
...

[arun]

US think tank Stimson has published a book titled "Deterrence Stability and Escalation Control in South Asia":

Deterrence Stability and Escalation Control in South Asia

December 12, 2013

India and Pakistan have developed and flight tested seventeen new nuclear weapon delivery vehicles since testing nuclear devices in 1998 - an average of more than one per year. Military doctrines have also evolved to emphasize more rapid mobilization to engage in limited conventional warfare. Diplomacy to reduce nuclear risks has lagged far behind nuclear weapon-related advances and doctrinal change. Since 1998, Pakistan and India have negotiated four notable military-related Confidence-Building and Nuclear Risk Reduction Measures. No new measures have been agreed upon since 2007.

There is no basis for deterrence stability on the Subcontinent when diplomacy and nuclear risk reduction are moribund while nuclear capabilities grow and military doctrines evolve. The most desirable off-ramp to increased nuclear dangers is to secure normal relations with a nuclear-armed neighbor. This collection of essays - the product of bi-monthly discussions at the Stimson Center - provides analysis and ideas for deterrence stability and escalation control on the Subcontinent. This pursuit awaits leadership in India and Pakistan that is strong enough to persist in the face of violent acts designed to disrupt progress.

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