Bharat Rakshak

I am expressing my opinion too. There is a tendency - a "tripping point" if you like when criticism of the US on this thread invites counter criticism of India. That is what is so curious to me.

Merely stating that this thread has veered off topic is one thing. A few people did that. But you chose to continue to stay off topic and selected counter criticism of India with a sly insinuation that people who are criticizing the US are
1. "Nobody would like to address" the same or worse problems in India
and
2. That people have a "false sense of hope" that everything on the home front is perfect.

This is a specious and unnecessary argument. All you are doing is resorting to what I have called as a torn shirt versus open fly argument. I say you have a torn shirt. You say "So what? Your fly is open" Neither the torn shirt nor open fly vanish. They remain as they are but all you have done is to steer the discussion away from your torn shirt to my open fly. I am informed that the technical term for this rhetorical tactic is "tu quoque"

But you have gone beyond that now and are saying that at least some people on here have " a false sense of hope that everything on the homefront is perfect". Could you please point me to any post that makes such a claim?

I agree and believe the same upto certain extent that posing opposing viewpoints actually brings forth some very interesting topics and discussions. Nobody needs a permit and never implied that as well. I started reading the thread from page 1 and started posting messages to some of the viewpoints expressed upto page 35 I think. I am looking at the overall thread and there are pages and pages of nothing but negative energy which is not doing any good or doing any harm to anyone except the ones caught up in the critical web.

No. I should have been more accurate about it as I meant to imply 'NRI' and not Indian Citizens residing in India.

That would be a healthy discussion I think. Since there has been discussions about attacks against them in India by so called hindu extremists and it has caught some attention in the US.

It was a general statement not aimed at any particular individual with respect to the 'false sense of hope'. I indicated 'If one has a false sense of hope' which means if they do not then it does not apply to them. You have to realize that I was reading starting from page 1 yesterday. Thus the cumulative and overall view seems to point to just that (steer the discussion away).

You don't see the provocation by the (not so called!) EJ extremists in India?

Let's see the same EJ lot do something in saudi arabia as proof of their dedication and willingness to bring the light in other areas of "darkness" too.

Seriously? The tide of opinion here is one way and that's not along what I'm saying. If not for a couple of dissenting opinions including mine, we would have an echo chamber with everyone partaking in baseless CTs built upon CTs.

Ofcourse I do see the provocation not just in India but wherever they have their presence and 'bandhus' such as China, Indonesia and the Africas.

Generally any monotheist religion will have a conflict as they both believe in unifying people in the name of religion. I'm sure there is a longer version to this issue as well. EJ in Saudi will definitely spark fireworks as both use movements like 'salafism' or political power for their existence.

Shivji, let me hazard a guess as to reasons why this might happen. There is lot of hype and hope, myth and exaltation attached to and about US. There are things that are good and bad, but there is very fragile nature if some of the things turns out contrary to deeply held hopes and beliefs about US. This immediately eviscerates a response to the effect "well things, are far worse in India" to compensate for the fragility. There will be ready acknowledgement that things are different, but being different still is based on the hope that things are better differently for US. Depending on one's station in life this takes different form in response. Well, it was not too long ago, king in S.E.Asia (korea ?) received emissaries of UK by serving them in gold cups, while he was served with aluminium cup to show the status. Aluminium was exotic and priced/valued higher than gold at one point in time! So different things/values/hopes have unique values to those who feel they need to counter with "open fly torn shirt".

Dr. Shiv,

I'm not sure about others but I have used the 'counter criticism' i.e. "you have crap on your backside too" only when the original argument seemed hyperbolic or over-generalized (E.g. US is totally racist).

But I do agree that this should not mean that we (Indians / NRIs) should shy away from criticizing Unkil.

There's ample space between over generalization and shutting up.

Would it be too much to ask you to realise that people have been reading from page 1 of every thread on BRF since 1997 and have some idea of people who pop in and reach conclusions about others?

While a valid guess, that is not the underlying reason that Shivji might have received from my postings to indicate "well things, are far worse in India" or to compensate for the fragility. It is about maintaining neutrality and positivity and not pragmatism in the approach to resolving an issue. Surely my comments are not going to make any difference here or off the forum. It is just another opinion as countless others.

No not at all. I do realise that there are BRFOldies and Newbies and it would be instantaneous for the Oldies to pick out people who reach conclusions about others or swirve against the forum policies and the general consensus. But do you think is it wrong if its against the consensus as its only an opinion.

Yes I know. People use that argument when the provocation goes beyond a particular trigger point. What fascinates me is that the only way to stop people from doing that is to beat down their self esteem and sense of identity to such low levels that they shut up and take it when they or their people, or their own kind are criticised.

I have made the following observation before on BRF and I will repeat it. The self esteem of educated Indians, especially Hindus has been historically beaten down to such low levels (in India by education) that many regain self esteem only after going abroad and making a life for themselves. Unfortunately the very same cliches and observations about India continue when one goes abroad to the "developed world" because it is the developed world that "developed" all the cliches in the first place. That sometimes leads to well meaning Indians to start comparing their present state in their present circumstances to what it "used to be" or what "it seems to be" in India and occasionally go into "lecture mode". Questioning the lecture mode sometimes leads to a curiously aggressive reaction from some people including the familiar "two-cock" tu quoque. This statement has nothing to do with you. I have tendered an apology to you and Bijushet for all my provocation and I repeat that and stand by that apology.

Wrong or not, you can expect to get blasted. Forums are about joining and living through the brickbats if you get them.

I agre and I have no problem from getting blasted for the right reasons. Now what defines 'right' is where the brickbats come into the discussions.

The welfare of Indian citizens (and people of Indian origin) in US is relevant for India. Indeed MEA has intervened when there were doubts about the fairness of American system. Given Dharun Ravi's trial, it does make sense to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of American judicial system.

American legal system also affects India in other ways. Headley's trial is a case in point.

The US state department's legal standards play an important role in designation/identification of terrorist organizations. Note that unless US agrees, the security council wouldn't take any steps. For example, see their latest statements on Hafeez Sayeed.

On the other hand, the quality of Indian legal system does not affect American lives. That is why it is not relevant here. If an American is punished by an Indian court then the issue might be discussed here.

This is basic common sense. It is sad that some people need this information explicitly.

Shivji, I have made the similar observation too and also noticed the changing viewpoints and opinions over time amongst new NRIs. My grandparents never left their respective villages and yet they were critical about it too. They were farmers by profession and were only educated upto 10th. Infact my paternal grandfather has marched and protested during the freedom fighting days with Gandhiji and Sardar Patel. So I disagree and hate to think that we do not have 'common sense' despite what the education system in India/forced down cliches by the so called developed world might be the cause or the culprits of such thinking pattern. Infact it sounds very much like what the african americans to this day continue to believe and play the blame game while the newer immigrants continue to pour, thrive and flourish. If that would have been the case, I'm sure we wouldn't have pursued independence from the Brits. I frequent between India and US and during social gatherings, the 'lecture mode' is very well alive and present even amongst non NRI old timers and amongst many young bloods in India. Opinions are like belly buttons (i wouldn't use aholes). Everyone has one but generally they tend to be very very abundant for and about others in the Desi Society.

Fair enough. I do agree that the Judicial systems are very different. But to make sense out of 'right' or 'wrong' you have to compare the judicial systems if one truely wishes to understand the nature of the beast. It might be basic common sense to the ones who are savvy and deep down into the subject itself but not to others. My perception and/or definition of common sense about my profession or subject of interests will definitely be far different from someone from a different profession and/or subject of interests.

Garooda it is easy to tell an NRI from the US from an NRI from any other country in the world because the USA gives a sense of self esteem based on "American Exceptionalism" that tolerates no argument or opposition. Arguing against an American viewpoint or a viewpoint learned in America by an Indian who thinks he knows India and America leads to aggression very very quickly.

We are veering off topic. This is that last post I am going to make on the matter.

No, we will need to compare the systems if we want to make the case that the Indian system is better than what the Americans have.

The 'goodness' or 'correctness' of a judgment in a given case is absolute and does not depend on what happens in other countries. Maybe it depends on your notions of what justice/fairness is.

I disagree as I had the somewhat similar opinions even before migrating to US (18 years). Exceptionalism is not specific to US but also to Indian Culture. While the american exceptionalism does not tolerate argument or opposition which exists in the political atmoshphere, the locals are infact very very critical about it. Indian exceptionalism tolerates but through the means of understanding be it in the political atmoshphere or social circles. No doubt I do not know India to its fullest extent nor do I know America to its fullest. However there is no aggression here just opinions as I would hate to think that Indians in India know everything about India as well.

Your points well taken. You are right. I'll drop the subject and let the topic not swirve off its due course.

Fair enough. Personally I think they're both flawed and pre-dated and due for some major overhaul or amendments.
Agree with your point on 'goodness' and 'correctness' and its non-dependency on countries. Precisely my point that opinions and viewpoints depends on a person's notion of what is fair and just.

India has seen itself criticized for more than 1000 years by foreigners and there are tons of book written on it. So India is not a new country here standing trying to understand. Rest of the world has to understand what India and Indians are about

Your view points seem to be promoting a foreign western view point on Indian society and that is the problem.
This is a Indian interest forum and foreign viewpoints are not appreciated.
India has a history of colonization for over 200 years where the colonial power also had this form of viewpoint and narrative. Indians dont appreciate this and is now has no relevance to Indians.

That is not true but I do not wish to elaborate on my view points as it is just that...a view point.
I am not looking to be appreciated or receive kudos on a forum. But it is very understandable
if the viewpoints are not appreciated.

I will lay my discussion to rest.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#! ... ice-system’s-decisions-18-year-old-rutgers-student-dharun-ravi-not/jqlNR9lP

sharing the link for the petition one more time. to lurkers and forum members, please do sign, those who are interested.

8 days left and the petition still needs 10000+ signatures.

I signed it. I attended the same university back in the 80's though dont live there anymore.
I would also recommend to locate other 'tamizhans' or 'tamilans' in US. Below are few sites with several contacts and possible websites
where the message might make it through to perhaps a broader audience.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tamil-American/140586212634484
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_American
http://www.fetna.org/

Now closest ally,loyal poodle,Britain also gets shafted just as India was on the 26/11 attcks!

US withheld al-Qaida terrorist plot details from UK intelligenceCIA reportedly held back data from MI5 and MI6 in retaliation for UK court disclosing details of Briton held in Guantánamo Bay

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/0 ... sfeed=true

How about using the following links for the broadest audience ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-reside ... ian_Origin

and better still

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_people

but you can start with this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American

A dead homo kid is a very big deal in USA. The backers of Dharun Ravi( includes yours truly) have to significantly expand their outreach.If one limits to a particular group , then it wouldn't have the desired impact.

Garoodaji,
The link that you gave `proving` violations of human rights in Kashmir is pure propaganda. It has such names as Kamal Mitra Chenoy linked to Fai(ISI) and PUCL which is a cover for the maoists.
Regards

Cant think of a better dhaga to post this one:

Just returned from a 4 day trip to Wyoming, S Dakota, Colorado and back to Utah. The main purpose was to visit Mt Rushmore where they have carved the faces of our presidents of US.

Unexpectedly, I cam across this story of the Red Indian Chief who fought the whites. Here is a link to the white man's pillaging and stealing of others lands and how Chief Crazy Horse fought them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O9umGN7 ... ure=relmfu

I was impressed that the current generation of Red Indians were reviving their past and building memorials to their hero's. It is quite symbolic that the Crazy horse's memorial is going to be several magnitudes bigger the than the faces of US president sculpted on the mountain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_HcKFUCxbQ

On the way back my daughter, who was so enamored with Crazy Horse's history kept asking me repeatedly to repeat his story. I used this opportunity to tell her that the white man also came to India and if not for our leaders we would be like the Red Indians- living in reservations (secluded areas) and relegated to the museum.

What I found interesting was that during this attack on Siox/Lacota Indians, when Crazy horse was still in his teen, Abraham Lincoln was figting the civil war to liberate the blacks. Wonder, if he ever gave he even considered red indians as human... He is referred to as a great humanist, yadda... I think the european/white sense of justic is very relative (contextual) and not absolute.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
— President Abraham Lincoln to Hon.Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862.

The more important reason is that there were too few native americans to start with. White immigration simply swamped them. The same wouldn't have been possible in India without committing a genocide. Infact resistance from native americans was extremely fierce.

But then again where political thought and mobilisation were concerned , Native Americans were found lacking.In this regard India definitely did better because of Leaders.

I completely agree with you that white sense of justice is extremely relative.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

How come GOI is still letting them operate then?

darshan, many modern theories dispute the low native american population, before epidemics wiped them out that is.

Once again this has nothing to do with India US strategic discussion. This time I am reporting your post. Your question may merit discussion, but this is the wrong thread.

Visiting after some time. Not sure if Dharun Ravi case still kosher here but some thoughts:

** The so-called permission was via text message about a "guest over". There was no talk or description of expected intimacy. It might as well been a friend you want to chat with without someone listening over.
** The guest was described as "homeless-looking", "random", "shady" by other students. He was 30, pretending to be 25, told Tyler that he will have to ask others for $35 for a motel though he worked two jobs.
** The amount of misinformation in this case is HUGE. The LBGT lobby ran with it and this guy could not get a fair trial. The prosecution took quite a bit of liberty with the facts, and the judge was sympathetic to the prosuction's perspective.
** I am surprised that posters here also do not have the facts right. There was no filming, broadcast or upload. The total viewing time was less than 10 seconds in two instances with two men kissing. Dharun was not present in the second kiss on the 19th.
** He is getting nailed for the second viewing session where he invited others but which did not happen. Very likely that was setup by the Lokesh Ojha guy who admitted that went to Dharun's room to point the cam; he probably was the only one interested and likely instigated Dharun in the first place to set up the camera.
** Dharun Ravi himself is a narcissist insensitive and possibly suffers from a narcissist personality disorder. It is his attempts to fix things, and not accept what he did wrong, which is leading to greater damage. His words have zero credibility.
** He is being used to set an example, and politically is a perfect example. It throws the LBGT activists a bone, it keeps the racists happy, and the traditional anti-gay lobby is quite because a White Christian kid died at the hands of the brown foreigner. The anti-gays will run with this case after the dust has settled; they will make an issue out of it only after Dharun is buried.

Might be true.Will try to get more info on this.

As long as Dharun Ravi is not a free man , this issue is very much kosher. We are not like media who will forget this after 2-3 days. The truth is that Dharun Ravi did nothing extraordinary for his age. Almost all of us were teenagers once .Many of us did things that were worse than spying on some homo(It is another thing that the homo kid had zero nerve). Yes it was a stupid act. But that is what teens are supposed to do.



Why should he accept that he did wrong when he didn't?There is something called conviction.Standing your ground in face of tremendous odds requires guts.And Dharun deserves our appreciation for showing courage. The only wrong that is being committed is being done by the politically correct lynch mob in USA have decided to hang a brown guy for a dead homo because it suits their interests.

Also by the way in addition to petitioning the white house , even the Ministry of Foreign affairs in India should be petitioned.

Manju,

The American Civil War was fought to gain access to the supernormal profits that were accruing in the cotton trade inthe eake of the disruption in supplies from India in the wake of our War for Independence.

What happened was, due to the genocide and ethnic cleansing the Brutish carried out in the UP region to disrupt the Indian war effort, the cotton production was also disrupted. This led to cotton prices rising to the highest ever in the history of mankind. As the US south was the only other large cotton production center in the world, the super normal profits began to go to the US union. This made US stronger day by day, and the Brutish decided to close that profit source. So they encouraged the south to secede, but Abraham Lincoln decided to wage war to stop that.

The 'emancipation' of blacks was simply a way to reduce the power of the cotton barons, not something that was born out of conviction. That is why they could still treat Red Indians as less than animals while fighting for 'blacks' and not feel any contradiction.

It was a great shock to me when I drove through a reservation while returning from the Grand Canyon a few years back. There was one single lane good road that soon terminated and gave way to nothing but sand and shrub. The houses were mostly sheds. Even the tiniest of towns outside of the reservation had better infrastructure. The most impressive building along that road was the church. A sad state of affairs. The state essentially has, by the way of reservations washed its hands off their well being.