Bharat Rakshak

Very interesting discussion. I am glad that I took the time to watch it in its entirety. I liked George, at least he has realized that India will not play Japan or UK, or even France to the US. Others had illusions. I was reminded of late PV Narasimha Rao's comment, when he had remarked that in the event of a future altercation between the US and China, we will be tempted to side with the US, and this impulse should be resisted. (I am paraphrasing).
Gautam

There is no way India will side with US in an event of a war with China. India would be totally neutral and if really forced to choose sides India would accommodate China against US. The internal political compulsions would leave no choice anyways. US has no business in Asia and has fkced more countries than Hitler.
Either way it depends on what side Russia is on.

seems north korea is preparing for its 3rd nuclear test should the impending BM test result in more pressure.

Funnily enough the US has structured its own laws in such a way that dealing with the US demands an acceptance of US laws. A case in point is the end user agreement that the US imposes on all its allies. Those that accept are more allied than those who refuse. This leaves a door open for the US to break the law if that is in US interest. The wording of that no aid to Pak if they went nuclear amendment (i forget the name) had the escape clause that "If the President certified" that Pak was OK. Then Pak was OK. Promptly a US President did certify Pak to be fine in terms of not seeking nuclear weapons and it was business a usual. On the other hand, he end user licensing can kick in any time or be ignored at any time.

I used to laugh at the "No Private practice" rule imposed by the Karnataka government on govt doctors. It was used only to victimize. Most doctors were free to practice as they wanted unless they rubbed the govt up the wrong way at which point the "law" would be used. This is exactly how the US too deals with other nations.

China has been bitten by this and has responded in interesting ways. One way is to completely ignore US rules like IPR when it came to software, toys and electronics. The other is to push massively for local development of the hardware of global power projection so that military/nuclear power cannot be used by the US to browbeat China.

The structure of "world order" is such that most countries of the world do accept US domination, but even US domination has a caste system. That apart, those who rabidly oppose the US are always the ones who are developing weapons and means to hit the US and gain US attention for that reason. India is stuck in between. India has no specific ill will towards the US but belongs to a lower "scheduled" caste of nations who deal with the US because India is not 100% in agreement with US demand. And when India disputes something the US sees India as not cooperating and US senators know that India is breaking US laws. Breaking American law is a crime. Americans take their laws very seriously when others break them.

So if you are not with the US you are against the US. It's pretty simple.

^Pressler

This is where the parties within US are divided. TSP is only used as a pawn (only islamic nation with nukes). I had posted a couple of links earlier on the idea of 'neutrality' and 'isolationism' stance that US belived (or atleast was stressed upon heavily by some of the earlier POTUS) which strictly recommended not to get involved for a prolonged period in EU or other global conflicts. The one candidate that was leaning towards the above ideology was sidelined conveniently. Which makes one wonder who exactly is the TPTB that controls the US elections. Certainly not the military.

Agree that is nothing more than gundaagardi. Domestically many disagree with this policy and practice overseas. The amount of money spent on policing is staggering. It would be well spent dometically within US.

While I agree with IPR as the markets definitely needs controlled/paced from a business perspective, certainly development of local hardware is perfectly fine. However in the case of NK, the threat is used heavily as a bargaining chip by Junior. In the case of China, it has shifted this particular focus(oppose the US/gain US attention/means to hit US) and day by day towards projecting regional power in south east Asia. This was projected by the founding fathers of US at one point that any prolonged involvement in overseas activity will give rise to powers that might not be in the best interest as it will certainly stress the financials (due to hundreds of oversea bases and/or conflicts/wars). Similar to how the Romans went down.

India is in a very tough position as you have to balance with China and also watchout for the neighbor. I am thinking that GOI is being very smart and patient. India for the most part in the last 1000 plus years has never invaded but has been invaded by other civilizations. Its stance has always been defensive and not offensive. More than likely, all the noise against India will fade. India has been on/off sanctions since its own nuclear test yet its still moving forward. Local speculations within US thinks its not going anywhere with sanctions on India as despite all the noise made locally within India, the GOI has played its part carefully. US needs India as a crucial strategic partner in the region.

Garooda, this might be OT, but please oh please do not forget about the Cholas and Cambodia, if not Sri Vijaya etc.

OT again but IIRC most of that was not aggression but trade and cultural diffusion aka soft power. There were only a couple of military naval expeditions that were carried out.

India needs to revamp that formula, this time building in checks against getting knocked over by aggressive dead-end demonic forces.

Indo-US strategic equation is like a literary novel in which the protagonists are driven by subliminal awareness of each other's nature and destiny. As the novel progresses the natures and destinies will emerge. It is also a game in that India is to be made to forget its nature and destiny. I see BRF as part of the fightback by India.

I guess no more Sick Rantoram jokes.

Marten, are you referring to how the Dynasty diminished or crumbled? Or how the dynasty flourished into cambodia?

What we are seeing in US with the rise of the religious nut heads is the death of Modernism. It died in the early 70s with the Oil Shock, Bretton Woods agreement, Vietnam, Watergate et al. Since then scientific reasoning ended in US and religious nut heads took over the social discourse.
We are seeing a era transformation. As Mahbubani said in different context we are seeing a return to the old normal before the Intellectual age.

Walter Russel Mead's article alludes to this in a round about manner. We can discuss this in the geopolitical thread.

I have a very limited understanding of US politics but I heard only the Southern states are religious nutheads. Economically progressive states like California, New York are multi cultural and polyglot. How did this spread?

Its spreading all over especially after the 2008 meltdown.

IMHO , Most US was always a fanatic neo-nazi nation with some oasis of excellence like ny ,Boston and Palo Alto . So whatever an outsider knows about the great US , is due to these regions of excellence which drive the American economy and science. With further financial troubles Nazism will become more prominent. Mind you , it was always there . But is being unmasked only now. IMHO it is likely that the "excellent regions" like the Palo alto etc will become autonomous economies in the future , not much unlike HK..

It's an artifact of the civil war. The southern states never caught up economically.

But doesn't everyone clutch to their guns and religious beliefs when economy goes south. What is happening in US is manifestation of same story.

That means their economy and the culture is built on thin foundation. The aim of being a global power and having global influence is a mirror.

US was always on the precipice of that phenomena. There is a lot of myth making about the US of A. The US of A that people look at today, did not even exist before the end of WW II. It was the inflow of Germans and Jews of Europe (funnily enough the fact that anti-antisemitism caused the war, and coexistence in Europe was contentious) along with smattering of scientists from other European countries, that led to the multi-lingual, moderate and accepting islands in US, along with the infusion of brain power the the current US is based on.

As a large substrate, US is basically a Xian, gun wielding, native massacring yahoo looking for conquest as a measure to increase resources. A slightly modern day version of the Huns and Mongols if you look carefully.

Yes, the basis of US state in French revolution did provide a good platform, and a chance to break from the latinized-anglo-saxon past of colonialization and that serves as a saving grace even now -- however it is always important to remember who the bulk of the settlers in US are -- and how recent the "settler" activities are.

Acharya ji, If you think hard, what is American contribution to culture except for Hollywood and Pop music ? Rest all is simply derived from it.
As far top economy, I guess being top dog in the global order is like holding and then passing the bowl and currently America is holding the bowl which is anyways on the verge of being passed onto next superpower just like US received it from UK post-WWII.

Vikas when I think about it, I believe the US did add one valuable thing to culture, but they are blowing it now. The US did the most dharmic of dharmic acts by funding and promoting easily accessible knowledge and thought. Perhaps the impetus came from the WW2 need to create a military-industrial complex, but post 1950 all the way up to the 80s the US was the place to go to expand your horizons in terms of learning..
It still remains that way - but they are blowing it by connecting it up to money/lucre. Gyan for its own sake seems more and more difficult to foster under the circumstances.

If India's fate line has any kindness - India could do that - but Allah has to will it first.

in my opinion to be a global power just natural resources, population, knowledge base , ample number of high level scientists, doctors, engineers is not enough....one needs another segment...a large base of people willing to volunteer to fight or be conscripted into service......(india, china, usa has that) .... it also needs a very amoral high level political leadership over decades....(china and usa have that, india does not).

hence the 'opportunities' we see going amiss due to the leadership not being focussed enough, but wasting time on vote pandering, sickularism, media games, stealing funds...etc.

the chinese and usa leadership are equally korrupt , but they also keep the bigger picture in mind and work to expand the pie, not just grab most of a smaller pie.

California , New york etc are not religious nutjobs but leftist nutjobs. Although youth in US is turning libertarian in all states.And as far as California,NY,Illinois etc being economically progressive , well that is history .

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article3301103.ece

Trilateral Talks.

^^^

Err shouldnt that go into its own thread rather than India-US thread?

India must be the only place where religious nut jobs and leftist nut jobs share same state! Unless world sees another economic boom like in 90's lot of states, heck, countries will be History!
Economic prosperity of US in 90's has limited the spread of religious cancer in US. Now that it is gone, we can expect a right wing Christian fundamentalist taking power of the WH and spreading it to India and elsewhere.
A scatter diagram of US economic growth and spread of religious fundamentalism would give a very conclusive evidence.

Altair ji , India is probably the only country in world where leftists,Islamists and christian fundamentalists have joined hands together to destroy India.And all three use the same tactics where maligning Hindus is concerned.In all the other countries they are slugging it out with one another. Think about it for a minute or two.

And while economic decline of USA may actually contribute to rising Christian Fundamentalism (along with Leftism/Socialism and not to be ignored) , for India it might be blessing in disguise because it will mean lesser money for distribution by evangelicals.Just my thoughts.

I agree. Lot of Churches were built 4-6 years back in India. Every Sunday they used to distribute money and cakes. The free money has stopped now and many Churches now have very few goers. Some even lack basic maintenance. My domestic help, belonging to a fisherman folk,became a Christian in 2006. She even built a house with some free money she got and land allotted during YSR regime. Now that free money has stopped, She now stopped going to the Church and goes to temple wearing a "bindhi" on her forehead. On Sree Nama navami she attended the "Kalyanam" and is a complete Hindu now.
It is a very different culture in India. You throw money on people like during elections, people will come, they may even vote for you but when the money stops flowing, they will simply forget you and worse spit on your face.
This conversion process is completely reversible.

Civilizational strength is inherent quality. US with all the knowledge and economic strength cant import this. Religious nuts might cause global total war as they are the symbols of panic and lack of solid thinking foundation. The exceptionalism is making hard to accomodate different worldviews. Mixing this myth of exceptionalism with religious fervor will lead to medieval era only.

very true.. As far as american scientific expertise is concerned , it is lot more easily transferable to other countries than transferring civilization to the Americans . When economic conditions permit , Indian companies may buy key american companies. And the top science and engineering professors from stanford /mit etc can just as easily be employed . But nothing can give the Americans 1000s of years of Indian civilization.

Add to the list that ellusive game changing event that bestows some kind of halo on your civilization. Mongols had it by virtue of being fiercly martial race and ravaging half of the inhabited planet, Romans had it as the gretest empire in the west, Brits commanded the respect/envy of the world as owner of the empire on whom sun never set, Americans got the halo after WWII as the greatest generation ever (self declared though).

A country may have everything that Singha has listed above, but to be a true sooper dooper power, It not only needs to prove its cojones but also get that ellusive halo from the world.
Thats Why neither Persia nor Germany even at their peak were a super-power, nor was Japan or Spain and nor is China since they didn't win any game changing event or stamped their authority.
And that is exactly the reason that India needs to shed some blood, indulge in gore, stamp its authority on badlands and walk tall and preach its own values as the best in the world.

BR came to the Siir-Pharr- Gardan Uttar- Garre Murde ukkhar conclusion almost a decade ago. Paki will provide the oppertunity unless they kill each other first. Indians failed in head chopping compition is known and historical fact. since we are here, its never too late to learn.

Mistake is when India is compared with western paradigm. Western/Islam religious fervour/wars has spread across the world over the last 1000 years and cannot be compared to the Indian version.

IMO, we don't need a bloodied mantle to place on our heads. It is entirely possible to be a super duper power without having to fire a single bullet. Till 1400's, India's soft power extended from the Asiatic regions to Europe. There is no reason that cannot be replicated again.

No country will be allowed to go to the top without being challenged. Never.
In the atomic era even smaller countries can challenge any other country

Good. What the British have done to Indians over the last 200 years you cannot even come to that level. Trust the rest of the folks here your opinions are nothing compared to what British have done in the last 200 years.
You can save some bandwidth here. You will not be adding any value much

Yes, but the soft power had a lot of hard backing as well, India's decline is primarily on the basis of the loss of its "hard power" rather than soft.

Stop crying about how and what the British did to the country. We all know who did what as a nation. It sounds so much like what the 'african american' community rants about in the US all the time and continue to play the blame game. You are redigressing what was discussed already. This forum is a discussion place as any other. I have opinions and so do others. They do not have to comply with each other. So stop preaching what the others might or might not think about my opnions. How do you really add a lot of value to this website? By agreeing to everything and everyone? You think you are the almighty to decide what value who should bring to the forums? Who made you the judge? If the Mods feel if I'm out of line then let them address the issue. One agrees or disagrees to opinions its plain and simple.

I apologize to butt in. With no retrospection, how can one take corrective steps? how do you propose corrective and preventive measures? with 85 million intentional and diabolically planned Indian deaths in British era, many magnitudes worse than what Hitler had done. Why don't you preach the same to your jewish brothers in US and ask them to move on? No one is playing the victim card here, Indians never raised the victim hood boogie for any reason. From 1AD till 18th century, India had one of the best GDPs in the world. After the british came GDP plunged drastically. Now how do you explain being the best to making us slum dwellers in the eyes of the west? so much that western press doesn't miss a chance to talk about Indian poverty every given chance? if not for the Brits, we certainly wouldn't have had the slum dogs epithet. What Brits had done still reverberates and effects every Indian life even to this day.

Now you say we are crying? no one is crying, we are just refreshing our memory what has happened lest we forget and make the same mistakes. But I certainly can sense your disdain callousness to Indian plight in your tone though. I don't care your racists objections about African-Americans, not that I don't care, but I care only about Indians more.