Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

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svinayak
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by svinayak »

Sign board outside places during the British period

"No Dogs and Indians Allowed inside"
Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

they were also mistreated by the white british colonials, so got the worst of both worlds in many respects...
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by svinayak »

Advait wrote:I have absoulety no sympathy for the Anglo-Indians. If any "caste" ruled, oppressed and expolited India from the 1850s to 1947, it was the Anglo-Indians. And before the Briturds left, they made sure that this "caste" got special privileges, which they still do. Can't understand why we don't get rid of their special status in Constitution and Parliament. Oh, it would probably be unsickular to do so. :((
The two nominated seats in the Parliament for Anglo Indians is way for the British to keep their connection to India.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by svinayak »

Lalmohan wrote:they were also mistreated by the white british colonials, so got the worst of both worlds in many respects...
Only the dark colored ones were mistreated. The fair and British looking were taken back to England and merged with the white population. So many of them will never reveal that they had Indian blood.
The unfortunate ones are the ones with the tan.
How they can accuse Indians of "caste system"
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by chetak »

Lalmohan wrote:they were also mistreated by the white british colonials, so got the worst of both worlds in many respects...
They were and are still called "dings" like the striker of the bell they were alone and never formed any part of the mainstream.

The english did not consider them as english and the Indians did not consider them Indians. They were often the progeny of common english soldiers who went "native" and many such fathers often abandoned their families and returned to ye olde england, back to the bosoms of their english families.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by chetak »

Acharya wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:they were also mistreated by the white british colonials, so got the worst of both worlds in many respects...
Only the dark colored ones were mistreated. The fair and British looking were taken back to England and merged with the white population. So many of them will never reveal that they had Indian blood.
The unfortunate ones are the ones with the tan.
How they can accuse Indians of "caste system"
Such cases are often the exception than the rule. The peculiar effect of the genetic mixing of these two races for some reasons resulted in the Anglo Indians aging physically very quickly.

A lot of Anglo Indians in their mid to late thirties often looked like they were in their fifties.

It was rare to find a cafe au lait anglo Indian of the first generation. The touch of coffee came with the second and subsequent generations, generally breeding with other anglo Indians.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by svinayak »

It is not an exception with the color of the skin thing.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Advait »

Why should Anglo-Indians get two seats or even one in Parliament. So they get double representation. They can vote and run for elections as "normal" Indians and also get two individuals from their Supercaste (s)elected to Parliament. That itself is undemocratic. :evil:

Besides Indian Hindus do not get any such special privilege in the UK Parliament. :(( Don't tell me about the ethnic Indian MPs. They have to jump through the usual election hoops, no special treatment for them. And I am saying Hindus becasue the definition of Anglo-Indian was both racial(should be European on father's side) and religious (should be of Christian faith).

As far as talk about them being very nice, honest, hardworking etc, that itself reeks of racism (Gangadin mentality perhaps).

If such broad flattering statements/claims were made of some other caste then you guys would be calling the person saying them as casteist. :cry: (and rightly so)
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by chetak »

Advait wrote:Why should Anglo-Indians get two seats or even one in Parliament. So they get double representation. They can vote and run for elections as "normal" Indians and also get two individuals from their Supercaste (s)elected to Parliament. That itself is undemocratic. :evil:

Besides Indian Hindus do not get any such special privilege in the UK Parliament. :(( Don't tell me about the ethnic Indian MPs. They have to jump through the usual election hoops, no special treatment for them. And I am saying Hindus becasue the definition of Anglo-Indian was both racial(should be European on father's side) and religious (should be of Christian faith).

As far as talk about them being very nice, honest, hardworking etc, that itself reeks of racism (Gangadin mentality perhaps).

If such broad flattering statements/claims were made of some other caste then you guys would be calling the person saying them as casteist. :cry: (and rightly so)
As for the reserved parliament seats I agree with you.

About the rest, just cool it. These unfortunates are just the flotsam and jetsam of colonial history and hardly any of it is of their making.

If you ever had the privilege of meeting some of these fine gentlemen in the Indian Armed Forces or ever been taught by fine anglo Indian teachers ( not like the utter CRAP you have today!!) like I have had, you would never talk of gangadin.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

At time of Independence the community was assured of being heard by giving them nominated seats in Parliament. Usually very eminent in the community are given that privilege. I had the benefit of two Anglo-Indian teachers who inculcated patriotism above all else in the students. I x-posted the speech as it emphaisied the angst of that community expatriates.
Taking the engine analogy, for India to progress all the cylinders have to fire in unison.

And as to the comment about identity as India marches on to prosperity the identification with India will increase. Right now they dont see any benfit to idenitifying with India.

The speaker is wrong on one count. There are more Indo-Anglos, Indo-Europeans and Indo-Americans and not to mention Indo-Chinese now than in 1947.

BTW, I started life in US with two quid or six dollars in my time.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Murugan »

Acharya wrote:Sign board outside places during the British period

"No Dogs and Indians Allowed inside"
They were rare and not common place. This was actually "Jews and Dogs are not allowed" in Germany. Jews replaced by Indians.

However, indians were treated as scums by British. But that attitude gave birth to Gandhiji, Jamshdedji TATA and Ghanshyamdas Birla. Gandhiji was thrown out of train because he was travelling in first class (with valid ticket of course) in S Africa. Jamshedji Tata was not allowed to entere a gora worm infested Hotel in mumbai. Tata built Taj and hired british waiters and butlers. :lol: G D Birla was thrown out of a lift meant for Goras while he went to Andrew Yule office to convey that he was not interested in buying Andrew Yule. This incident changed his mind immediately and he ended up buying Andrew Yule. Added later: Jamnalal Bajaj who gave his everything to Gandhiji and movement of independence had similar treatment by Goras

Read Cold Steel. In the new age apartheid, Laxmi Mittal was treated like that by Guy Doll when Laxmi tried to takeover Arecelor. Later Laxmi Mittal kicked Guy out of the Doll.. Door.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vina »

ramana wrote:The speaker is wrong on one count. There are more Indo-Anglos, Indo-Europeans and Indo-Americans and not to mention Indo-Chinese now than in 1947.

BTW, I started life in US with two quid or six dollars in my time.
Ramana, you are right, but then the speaker was NOT wrong. What is disappearing is "Anglo Indian" which reeks of an old colonial mindset and the unequal power structures and the relations and the niche which a "pliant" population that the "Anglo Indians" were assigned to.

You are talking about Indo-Anglos, Indo-Europeans and Indo-Americans, there the relationships are qualitatively different, context is totally different and a lot more wholesome I should say.

BTW, I was "delivered" by my anglo-indian aunt who was the doctor attending . Racist rants like from Advait aside, it is /was an interesting community which did contribute a lot.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Singha »

like the parsees, kochi jews, chinese in kolkata, kabulis in mumbai and mohicans they are a vanishing tribe, one who left their pugmark but then vanished into the sands...we had some great teachers in school and one of them mentioned his father used to run steam engines for IR.

india continues to evolve as all large cauldrons do...new hybrids and mutations emerge all the time...only truly adaptable mutation friendly hives have the ability to beat off any outside threats long term. india is one, usa is another. japan is not one.

I would cry neither for the vanishing of the old world nor about the new hybrids that emerge. the future of the world is mongrelization and all the TFTA pedigrees with their lack of resistance to new threats will either adapt or perish.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by harbans »

Just thinking aloud here, Britain is just an island of approximately 250,000 sq km. If we include US, Canada, Australia, SA and UK we get a population figure (250m + 30+ 30 + 60=) 370 Million people approximately. For a nation that size these folks have multiplied like rabbits last few hundred years..
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

anglo population in SA is ~3-4m, other whites are afrikaners
canada and australia have large non-english migrant populations
the US has more germans, irish and italians amongst the white population than anglos, plus almost all other white europeans, i doubt that the real anglo component is more than 15%
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

There's a whole lot of complex piskology to this Anglo Indian thing. Let's just say the pre-independence "Anglo Indians" and post-independence "Anglo Indians" were quite different. :) There's plenty of writing on the pre-independence Anglo Indians.

Post independence, at least in my personal experience, it reflects what chetak wrote. But this is anecdotal.

Pre-independence, some of the stuff will turn your stomachs.

When I get a chance, I will dig through my pdf collection and suggest a couple...
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

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I know there are Desis all around the world who like the "house sound", and this is definitely a fine resource.

Enjoy!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by harbans »

Lalmohan Ji, just verified that info. You are right. Thanks. (though there are lots of variations as people calling themselves English, British etc..50 m people in US claimed English origin in 1970 vs 25m odd recent times for example).
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

the US is now quite hybrid and there is a new US strain of caucasian - IMHO, with more mixtures of the european roots. a good example is heather locklear - who though clearly white, is not easily placeable in a specific part of europe
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

Lalmohan wrote:the US is now quite hybrid and there is a new US strain of caucasian - IMHO, with more mixtures of the european roots. a good example is heather locklear - who though clearly white, is not easily placeable in a specific part of europe

Please to read:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... klear.html
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by svinayak »

Today I met a banker lady (lovely) who spoke about her parent ancestry - From Turkey and Philippino. She claims to have Tartar ancestry. We talked about gene migration.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

the SA example is also very complex. amongst whites there are anglo (british - saxon and celtic) descent, dutch and french - plus various italian, portuguese and jewish groups plus greeks! Amongst blacks there are the various bantu derivatives - most dominant being Xhosa and Zulu (but also many others) - who trace back to migrations from east africa. there are also San (bushmen) who are very distinctively different to the bantu who were displaced from most of the cape region. then there are the "coloureds" who are of San and Dutch colonial ancestry and form their own group - and ofcourse Indians - predominantly tamil and gujarati descendants. plus various east asians and malays - and almost every sea faring race that went around the cape of good hope. and then despite the many years of apartheid - all manner of intermixtures between these groups. the anglos lost power to the afrikaners (white dutch descendants) with the decline of the british empire, but have made a comeback in the post apartheid era (where the afrikaners lost out) - since they control much of the economy and the ANC (Xhosa dominated though Zuma is a Zulu) have struck a deal on maintaining the balance of power - economic and political.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by chetak »

JE Menon wrote:There's a whole lot of complex piskology to this Anglo Indian thing. Let's just say the pre-independence "Anglo Indians" and post-independence "Anglo Indians" were quite different. :) There's plenty of writing on the pre-independence Anglo Indians.

Post independence, at least in my personal experience, it reflects what chetak wrote. But this is anecdotal.

Pre-independence, some of the stuff will turn your stomachs.

When I get a chance, I will dig through my pdf collection and suggest a couple...

Pre independence, I gather that there were quite a few bad eggs!!

Jiska lathi, uske bains, no?

Post independence, the lathi went back but the bains remained to adapt to changed circumstances.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Indeed Chetak. Quite right.

A somewhat poignant, short essay on the subject by an Anglo Indian.

http://www.margaretdeefholts.com/angloindian.html

and an article in NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/world ... india.html
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

And this is cute:
Image
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ManjaM »

JE Menon wrote:..and an article in NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/world ... india.html
Some snippets -
Greg Francis, a 30-year-old Anglo-Indian from Calcutta, where his forefathers worked on the railroads, works for I.B.M.’s call center division in Gurgaon, a high-rise satellite city on Delhi’s edge where many multinationals have their headquarters where he trains Indians on dealing with Westerners. “They need to learn a lot,” he said.
Today, though, the fortunes of younger Anglo-Indians are generally rising, Mr. O’Brien said. Their English skills and what Ms. Andrews, the anthropologist, describes as their “Western bearing” make them attractive employees for multinationals and Indian outsourcing companies.

“You go for a job interview in a multinational with a name like O’Brien, and, well, it all flows pretty easily for our children these days,” Mr. O’Brien said.
“All the Indians wanted to be Anglo-Indian, :?: :?: ” said Malcolm Booth, 83, the honorary general secretary of the All-India Anglo-Indian Association.
Along with educational and social benefits, Anglo-Indians received preferential pay during British rule, according to Mr. Booth. In the 1940s, he said, a British train engineer earned around 300 rupees a month, while an Anglo-Indian would earn 200 and an Indian 100.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Chetak:I have always found them to be uniformly cheerful lot, content with their station in life

Yes, same here. I even met a very cheerful, funky older Anglo-Indian, who was somewhat critical of his own community, and also very sympathetic to India. My experiences with them have been almost all positive. They are down-to-earth and content with their lot. Very open and not suspicious or sour.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"“All the Indians wanted to be Anglo-Indian, :?: :?: ” said Malcolm Booth, 83, the honorary general secretary of the All-India Anglo-Indian Association."

This awful remark spoiled an otherwise reasonable article. Trust a Western news agency not to question such stupidity, and merely leave the line unchallenged.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by svinayak »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"“All the Indians wanted to be Anglo-Indian, :?: :?: ” said Malcolm Booth, 83, the honorary general secretary of the All-India Anglo-Indian Association."

This awful remark spoiled an otherwise reasonable article. Trust a Western news agency not to question such stupidity, and merely leave the line unchallenged.
That is what they see with the social engineering with the western media and education
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

What he means is in the limit "All Indian elites aspire to be DIE."
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

In fact the truth is the polar opposite. Half-caste was a pejorative and more contemptuous than being 'low' caste.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

an interesting aside - this week finally saw the conviction of two men for the unprovoked stabbing murder of a black teenager 18 years ago. the case highlighted that the london police had initially no interest in solving the case or getting to a safe prosecution. there were allegations of "institutional racism" as well as corruption. some of the accused were sons of a major drug baron. thanks to the persistence of the murdered boys parents and also of various senior legal figures, the case has finally yielded two convictions. there are three more suspects who are not yet being prosecuted - the hope is that they will be dealt with soon. the london police was fundamentally shaken up as a result of this case and its subsequent inquiery into how it worked, including signficant advances in forensic science techniques and police procedures related to handling evidence. something good has come out of this sad affair.

the benefits of it can be seen in the prompt action by manchester police in the awful case of the shooting of anuj bidwe
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

JEM,
Is that the new INC flag?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Sanku »

ramana wrote:JEM,
Is that the new INC flag?
:rotfl:
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Ramana,

I won't be in the least surprised.

OTOH, if we change the red cross in the middle to blue and put white stars in it, leaving the dharma chakra in place, the BJP might be quite happy too.

It seems everyone is compromised, except true patriots on BRF of course.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

That imples BJP is US friendly which was not the case in its 1998 tests.

Speaking of flags did you know the first US flag was same as British EIC flag? It was much latter the Stars and Stripes was adopted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States

8)
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Nor is INC UK friendly in trade talks... but this is beside the point. Both INC and BJP are UK and US friendly. And there is no problem with that, per se. The trouble is when that friendliness is exclusive, and that does not seem to be the case (yet).

I don't think we need to elaborate on the number of politicians kids and relatives (of all parties) studying in the UK/US. I won't be in the least surprised if a substantial chunk of the guys posting on BRF themselves have green cards, or citizenship of the US/UK etc.

Yes, I was aware of the EIC flag. The Americans changed it within or a year or so of independence. Thanks for the link though. Good refresher.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

The guys on BRF dont make policy nor or they in any position to influence. Besides some of them bought the Resurgent India bonds.

Further trade talks are between GOI and UK not between parties.

So thats a gratitous non-sequitor.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Prem »

Sanku wrote:
ramana wrote:JEM,
Is that the new INC flag?
Next English letter to I is J. So they have moved on from INC to JNC=Joshua National Congress.

Pre 90 India is pre NRI influenced India. RG was the first to call NRIs for yelp.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

But the principle is the same isn't it. If we on brf are criticising politicians for their links to the US/UK whoever, what is the basis for it if the critics themselves are sitting in the US and making money there? The same basis for suspicion exists. Sauce goose gander. Credibility.

As far as I know, no GoI agreement with the US/UK is between political parties. So, by that logic, INC or BJP can't be blamed for anything or credited with anything.

The Resurgent India Bonds purchase thing is nice. Many Americans and Britons purchased them too.

Got to go out for a drink... will reply later if needed.

Disclaimer, I have dual nationality too (not US/UK - not that it makes a difference). And my children will definitely study in the US or UK at one point or another. Son is insisting on the US, what to do onlee...
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