Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Aug 2011 20:34

I am very shocked to see incapability of met police and Scotland Yard which is looked up to . UK is one of the very few countries like Newzealand, Norway where police is unarmed. All they carry are batons, shield, chilli spray, on regular basis in UK, audits and survey are carried out to find out if they need to arm UK police and the current situation may change the whole thing.

Years of pussyfooting around people who refuse to assimilate in their culture , soft approach on law breakers and a nation crumbling (broke Britain which Cameroon and his party had pledged to fix) has resulted in current catastrophe. Looters and arsonist are feeling they wouldn't be caught , they can defeat police in one to one fight, while police needs evidence and always carries this burden of not being called racist looters have nothing to lose.

There was a shocking picture of policemen sleeping in vans (exhausted, bruised and tired) in Enfield while rioters were on rampage. I am being told that over time and similar perks have been cut down and many of these police men who are doing over stretched hours may not be paid for this.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 09 Aug 2011 20:35

Has India issued a travel warning yet, or is MEA doing a Deve Gowda at the wheel?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Aug 2011 21:07

You gotta admire the British-looters and police of all skin hues.

I am serious.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Aug 2011 22:01

IndraD wrote:I am very shocked to see incapability of met police and Scotland Yard which is looked up to . UK is one of the very few countries like Newzealand, Norway where police is unarmed. All they carry are batons, shield, chilli spray, on regular basis in UK, audits and survey are carried out to find out if they need to arm UK police and the current situation may change the whole thing.

Please read a few pages back to understand what started the riots off. You are incorrect on many counts.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Aug 2011 22:04

UK and London based folks take care of yourselves and avoid bad areas.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 09 Aug 2011 22:17

Seriously guys, I am beginning to think that the whole concept of western liberalism is a catastrophic failure. India should learn from the mistakes and take corrective steps to avoid the same mistakes.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Aug 2011 22:19

one thing that is emerging is that this time around its underclass versus establishment, instead of blacks against the white establishment. there are people of all colours on both sides of the line

the underclass in the deprived mill towns of northern england are suspiciously quiet...

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Aug 2011 22:22

er, a lot of peoples here are going on with two thoughts

1) the rioters are thugs and not political.
2) UK cops are not equipped

Throughout world history, all rioters are thugs, until there is a rich white man to channel it in a political direction for his own benefit. All the miscellaneous "isms" are just that marketing play. This channelizing and the aura that gets created are spin at work. It takes on a glorious form later on, if there is any benefit for the backer. That little matter of the dude frantically running with an LCD TV, while clutching his ill-fitting pants is forgotten and only the statue of a <insert a ruler> being torn down is tom-tommed. Well, everywhere except the home of the rich white man - the UK and later on, the US.

Unfortunately for UK (or US) rioters, they are doing all the thuggery in the backyard of rich white men and they shall remain "thugs" and "looters". There will be stories of brave police men battling them, whereas youtube videos will show yellow-bellied cops cowering behind postboxes later on. Like the early 90s LA riots and that iconic video of korean expats defending themselves against looters, with nary a cop in sight. And LA cops are as badass they come, or so the story goes.

Now here is the funny bit. UK cops are supposed to be dealing with a pacifist society that sniffs down upon Khan land's penchant for guns. All they need are batons and honesty. n'est pas, monsaaar?

(The only time when blogosphere and other media cried foul is during that katrina incident of "looting" vs "finding" photos and the shameful explanations of the AP people. I hope someone keeps a close eye on this riots too)

Just some random thoughts.

partha · Post by **partha** » 09 Aug 2011 22:41

whoa! riot supplies - look at the jump in the sales rank in the last 24 hrs! Things are not going to get better soon.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-s ... g_bs_tab#1

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Aug 2011 22:48

CNN reporting that initial investigation into the incident that started the riots say that the individual did not open fire at police as originally reported. Police are going to be under big pressure now.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 09 Aug 2011 23:05

A lot of fighting going on in the streets at the moment.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Aug 2011 23:19

shyamd wrote:
IndraD wrote:I am very shocked to see incapability of met police and Scotland Yard which is looked up to . UK is one of the very few countries like Newzealand, Norway where police is unarmed. All they carry are batons, shield, chilli spray, on regular basis in UK, audits and survey are carried out to find out if they need to arm UK police and the current situation may change the whole thing.
Please read a few pages back to understand what started the riots off. You are incorrect on many counts.

I understand the genesis of riot, I live in UK, what I mean is that outcome could have been different if police were better equipped preferably with guns.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Aug 2011 23:27

(Sort of) Travel advisory from US-BBC

Steve Kingstone BBC News, Washington The US has warned American citizens to steer clear of the violence in Britain because the situation remains "fluid". A formal travel advisory issued on the US embassy website advises visitors to move away from any civil unrest and to avoid contact with those causing the violence.

Fire and arson on in Manchester and Wolverhampton city centre , police describing this is as minor disorder, reports from London about doctors on duty unable to reach hospitals .

The leader of a head teachers' union blames poor parenting and a culture of consumerism and celebrity for young people rioting and looting

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 09 Aug 2011 23:39

this is what Theresa May said a year ago:

We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest

The home secretary, Theresa May, has dismissed fears that deep spending cuts could undermine the ability of the police to tackle possible civil unrest, and insisted the British did not respond to austerity by rioting on the streets.

May told the police superintendents' annual conference that it was "ridiculous" to suggest savings could not be made in policing, and went on to challenge the political orthodoxy that fewer officers would inevitably mean more crime. The home secretary pointed out that around the world significant falls in crime had happened alongside stable or even falling police numbers.
-----------------------
May told the police: "The British public don't simply resort to violent unrest in the face of challenging economic circumstances. We must have a rational and reasonable debate about policing. Your association has a long and proud history of constructive and sensible contributions to policing policy-making – long may it continue."

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Aug 2011 23:47

IndraD wrote: I understand the genesis of riot, I live in UK, what I mean is that outcome could have been different if police were better equipped preferably with guns.

I think what you are asking for, is that police should be allowed to use lethal weapons such as guns to quell a riot? Rubber bullets are probably better.

Armed police are already available across the country. If there is a gun involved or even knife crime, first response is usually always armed police.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 09 Aug 2011 23:50

From Twitter.
#Enfield: 100 white men, 30s-40s, sprinting along Hertford Rd. Shouts of "Get the Pakis."

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Aug 2011 23:54

shyamd wrote:
IndraD wrote: I understand the genesis of riot, I live in UK, what I mean is that outcome could have been different if police were better equipped preferably with guns.
I think what you are asking for, is that police should be allowed to use lethal weapons such as guns to quell a riot? Rubber bullets are probably better.

Armed police are already available across the country. If there is a gun involved or even knife crime, first response is usually always armed police.

Isn't on going riots a case where police should carry guns rather than getting over run by mobs.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 10 Aug 2011 00:02

Keep away from Britain! Governments around world warn citizens to avoid riot-hit UK
Germans warned to exercise 'special caution'
Latvians told to get health and life insurance
Sweden, Denmark and Finland also issue safety advice

partha · Post by **partha** » 10 Aug 2011 00:09

IndraD wrote:Keep away from Britain! Governments around world warn citizens to avoid riot-hit UK
Germans warned to exercise 'special caution'
Latvians told to get health and life insurance
Sweden, Denmark and Finland also issue safety advice

Our good neighbor too.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Aug 2011 00:14

Lalmohan wrote:the underclass in the deprived mill towns of northern england are suspiciously quiet...

So that is a ticking phataka ? If UK suffers more, there will be changes in Europe for sure. America and UK are role models, by being victors of WWII, to Europe and rest of the World. Because of their prosperity in the 20th century, we automatically conclude what they did and are doing is correct. That opinion will change when we see more structural or cyclic problems in their society.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 10 Aug 2011 00:17

Lalmohan wrote:one thing that is emerging is that this time around its underclass versus establishment, instead of blacks against the white establishment. there are people of all colours on both sides of the line

the underclass in the deprived mill towns of northern england are suspiciously quiet...

There are reports on the Beeb that most of the 30 people produced before courts today on rioting charges had spotless records and were not "underclass". Manchester seems to be headed for trouble tonight based on current reports.

I think its opportunistic looting pure and simple. The looters are across spectrum, blacks, whites and Asians. The police cut backs are showing their effect now. Theresa May has a lot to answer for, but as usual, no one will ask the right questions nor will be held accountable. The policemen who did the initial Duggan shooting will be sacrificed to save the big fish. Cameron has claimed that looters will " feel the full force of the law", but the holding cells across London are already full. The British jails are already fuller, and the public defenders (which most rioters will require) are completely swamped. How the heck are the rioters going to be prosecuted?

Another point, I wonder what sort of exposure the insurance companies have in all of this.

On a side note:

India should issue as many patronizing statements as possible on the lines of "class divide", "repression of teen angst", "unfair targeting of deprived minorities on socio economic status" etc etc

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Aug 2011 00:19

IndraD wrote:
shyamd wrote: I think what you are asking for, is that police should be allowed to use lethal weapons such as guns to quell a riot? Rubber bullets are probably better.

Armed police are already available across the country. If there is a gun involved or even knife crime, first response is usually always armed police.
Isn't on going riots a case where police should carry guns rather than getting over run by mobs.

Are you serious? Gun use during a riot instead of proper riot-control devices? And spark a country-wide riot?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 10 Aug 2011 00:22

IndraD wrote: Isn't on going riots a case where police should carry guns rather than getting over run by mobs.

I think the point shyamd is trying to make is that traditionally British policing has always been a restrained approach unlike the Americans. Deploying armed police is simply not done. Even deploying water cannons is seen as a escalation and deploying the army is like a grave provocation. If you note the videos, in many cases rioters are shown setting up road blocks in full view of riot police who do not react. Even in demonstrations, police prefer to kettle protestors rather than actively breaking it up. The concept of unarmed police is sacrosanct in UK and a mere 3 days of rioting will not cause the TA to be deployed.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Aug 2011 00:25

I do not understand this "opportunistic looting" line of thought. If an individual, has a lot to lose then she or he will not use the "opportunity", no? Only when we have nothing much to lose would we indulge in something that is illegal.

List of Riots in London

After 2008 economic crisis, 2009, 2010 and 2011 have seen violent protests or riots.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 10 Aug 2011 00:29

Opportunistic because there is a confluence of factors:

Massive cuts in social subsidies across the boards, primarily the unemployment and disability cover which had been traditionally abused by the same section of people that are currently involved in rioting
Rising inflation and unemployment and economic conditions
School vacations
Cutbacks in police.
Inability of unions to do anything
Latent anger against the rich (bankers) that are seen to be getting away without censure, in fact more bonuses.

All the factors existed at any point in the past, but not necessarily all at the same time.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Aug 2011 00:59

Lalmohan wrote:met police have announced that plastic bullets will be used today if required
these are supposedly non lethal, and are used when dealing with armed suspects, however have led to 14 deaths in northern ireland so far

HR violations

I want to send a international delegation from Pakistan, Saudi Arebia and Iran to talk to the victims...

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 10 Aug 2011 01:03

SwamyG wrote:List or Riots in London

Calcutta - City of joy
London - City if riots

RamaY wrote:I want to send a international delegation from Pakistan, Saudi Arebia and Iran to talk to the victims...

Don't forget HR representatives from China.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Aug 2011 01:11

UK riots: What turns people into looters?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 10 Aug 2011 01:19

So far these riots have been less violent and less political than the riots of 1981 and 1985 which also started in black areas like Brixton.

There is a hard core of gang members and some of the people around them who actively want confrontation with the police. They're not just after the police, but anyone who they think is close to them, like the press - photographers have been repeatedly beaten up and robbed.

These guys are the minority but they have worn down and occupied the police while swarms of kids from the less affluent ends of town have helped themselves to whatever they want from the shopping areas closest to them, and assert themselves over all the well off grown ups who they have to defer to normally.

As a side note the Turkish business owners standing guard outside their shops remind me of the Koreans in Los Angeles in 1992. The difference is of course that they've got pipes in their hands instead of guns, which is a good thing.

Still its remarkable how just a couple of thousand hoodlums and opportunists have been able to test the authorities capacity. There is an enormous amount of disbelief and anger in the middle class at the police inability to control the streets.

Part of the Met's failure is that it relies heavily on prior intelligence to cope with events - that's how they deal with Irish, Islamist and far-right terrorism, as well as mass threats like football hooligan gangs, and pre-planned demonstrations of the anti-G-20 or anarchist variety. But with social media things are much more spontaneous, from the student protests earlier this year, to the current riots.

The British public has generally had less of an issue with surveillance than 'militarisation' of law enforcement, so I suspect part of the response will be building police capacity to monitor and data mine social media live. Water cannon, and or more specialised vehicles that can be used as 'brooms' are probably inevitable though to deal with 'flash mobs' - unless of course funding for policing dramatically increases to provide the manpower needed.

On the other hand there is also going to be a lot of soul searching about what to about the dangerous mix of alienation as well as sense of entitlement of urban youth from poorer backgrounds. It is certainly going to challenge the current program of spending cuts. I think in combination with the diminishment of Rupert Murdoch's media empire, and Europe's economic challenges we may see a shift in lifestyle and lifestyle goals emerging out of all this, just as the failure of statism and unionism in the 1970s sparked the rise of Thatcher and a return to conspicuous consumptionism.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 10 Aug 2011 01:37

International press reaction to UK riots

Is technology to blame for the London riots?

UK riots: What turns people into looters?

A social psychologist's view
For most people looting is opportunistic. And greed is certainly a factor.

But some people approach this situation not necessarily with bad intentions. They are swept away by the crowd, for a variety of reasons highlighted by social psychologists.

One concept is called deindividuation. Normally people's behaviour is guided by their own identity and values, which tell us to not do certain things - like taking things without paying for them.

But in some situations they take on the values of the group. Our own internal values and norms become less salient.

The second idea is called emergent norm theory. Most of these people have probably not been in a riot like this one before. They are unsure of what the appropriate behaviour is.

So they look at what other people are doing. And if other people are doing this, it suggests it's normal. Or at least maybe it is something that I can get away with.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14459127

what police can do-Water cannon which shoot a high-pressure stream of water against rioters are used in Northern Ireland as well as France, Germany and other European countries

because it has never been used in Great Britain before, the authorities would risk "sending out a message that we have lost control" and inflaming tensions "in a country that has never been comfortable with the idea of militarisation".

Weapons such as baton rounds - colloquially known as plastic or rubber bullets - have been deployed in Northern Ireland to disperse crowds and are intended as a non-lethal alternative, although they have been the cause of a number of deaths.

But, symbolically, to have water cannons on the streets and baton rounds looks like the end of the world."
Following serious looting and arson in the borough, Croydon council leader Mike Fisher called for the Army to be brought in

But, again, he cautions that "symbolically in Britain people have never been comfortable with the idea of militarised force on the streets" and no UK prime minister would want to be remembered as the one who broke this decades-long tradition.

And he warns that, operationally, there could be a culture clash between police officers used to dealing with civil unrest and armed forces trained for military combat.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 10 Aug 2011 01:40

An interesting interview off the beeb. What do our resident experts make of it? Is it truly that bad for them?

A related blog post by WaPo

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Aug 2011 02:02

darcus is an old radical, this is not unexpected from him
this old line of stopping black kids for no reason is wearing a bit thin
there's plenty of law abiding black youngsters, and there is a large group who are not
just as with a lot of whites
btw - some of the images today showed 'south asian' youths involved in the looting also

there is ofcourse a large body of anarchists and hard left people who enjoy rioting and will join in to any event

btw - my comment about northern mill towns was about unemployed pakistani origin youths, not english

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 10 Aug 2011 02:53

The Turkish community in Dalston protect their property from looters

London riots: the knives are being sharpened

London riots: residents fight back

with overstretched police unable to inspire confidence many small business community prepare to fight back with home made arms

Rioters who had targeted shops on Commercial Road arrived in the area as prayers were finishing at the East London Mosque on Monday evening.

It was feared they were trying to break into the mosque and the nearby Islamic Bank of Britain, but they were driven away by a large crowd of Muslim worshippers

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 10 Aug 2011 05:31

BBC: How does it feel when the shoe's on the other foot? British media criticized for one-sided coverage of riots. Posting in full....

Writer to BBC interviewer: ‘Stop accusing me of being a rioter’

The British media has fielded plenty of criticism over its coverage of the U.K. riots--in part, for siding with police in their clashes with London youth, and for not telling the latter's side of the story.

"Wretched media coverage on London protests from BBC to Al Jazeera," a post on the WikiLeaks Twitter feed read. "Not a single protester interviewed. Absolutely pathetic."

On Tuesday, the BBC interviewed Darcus Howe, a 68-year-old West Indian writer, broadcaster and resident of one of the South London suburbs affected by the riots. Howe was asked by a BBC host if he condoned the riots--and things turned ugly. "What I am concerned about ... there is a man called Mark Duggan--he has parents, he has brothers, he has sisters," Howe said. "A few yards away from where he lives, a police officer blew his head off. Blew his face off!"

Fiona Armstrong, the BBC host, immediately cut Howe off. "Mr. Howe, we have to wait for the official inquiry before we can say things like that," she said. "We are going to wait for the police report on it." Armstrong then steered the discussion away from Duggan and to Howe's grandson, who he had mentioned earlier in the interview.

"They have been stopping and searching young blacks for no reason at all," Howe said. "I have a grandson, he is an angel. Police slapped him up against a wall, and searched him. I asked him the other day, having a sense that something seriously wrong is going on in this country, 'How many times have police searched you?' He said, 'Papa I can't count, there are so many times.'"

Armstrong cut him off again. "Mr. Howe, that may well have happened, and if you say it did, I'm not against you. But that is no excuse to go out rioting and causing the sort of damage we have been seeing over the last few days."

"Where were you in 1981 in Brixton?" Howe fired back, a reference to the bloody riots between Metropolitan Police and blacks in South London in April of that year. "I don't call it rioting--I call it an insurrection of the masses of the people. It is happening in Syria, it is happening in Clapham, it's happening in Liverpool, it's happening in Port-au-Spain, Trinidad, and that is the nature of the historical moment.""

Armstrong then tried to infer that Howe, himself, had a history of participating in riots. "I have never taken part in a single riot," Howe snapped. "I've been part of demonstrations that have ended up in a conflict. Have some respect for an old West Indian Negro, and stop accusing me of being a rioter."

As the segment concluded, he added: "You sound like an idiot."

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 10 Aug 2011 06:45

^^ Darkus Howe is the same guy who did this nice video in the past.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2011 07:59

the UK uprising of economically marginalized "dalits" seems to have spread to a few more cities...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Aug 2011 08:03

From Iranian government

Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast urged the British government to order the police to stop their violent confrontation with the people, IRNA reported in the early hours of Tuesday.

Mehmanparast asked the British government to start dialogue with the protesters and to listen to their demands in order to calm the situation down.

The Iranian official also asked independent human rights organizations to investigate the killing in order to protect the civil rights and civil liberties.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 10 Aug 2011 08:29

If this is based on class, then there is a possibility that the police and local government are complicit in the riots. That would explain why they aren't getting it under control.

The motive would be to reverse the budget cuts and go on expanding local political fiefdoms.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 10 Aug 2011 10:19

NY Times-Unarmed Officers on London’s Front Lines

As British officials promised to end days of widespread riots with “more robust policing,” and 16,000 officers fanned out across London, American readers might be surprised to learn that most members of the force charged with ending the rioting remain unarmed.

Of the more than 32,500 officers in London’s Metropolitan Police Service, just 2,740 were “authorized firearms officers” at last count. Outside the capital, the entire territory of England and Wales is policed with the help of just 4,128 more armed officers.

That might help to explain this striking video, posted online by a blogger named Mike Jelves, which showed rioters charging at police officers and driving them back with apparent ease in one part of London on Monday.

NY Times-London Rioting Prompts Fears Over Soccer and Olympics

The unrest has spread into neighborhoods near the Olympic Park in east London, the site of the Olympic Stadium and several other sites that will form the heart of the 2012 London Games.

The timing could not have been worse. This week, executives from the International Olympic Committee and officials from nearly 200 national Olympic committees arrived in London for meetings about the Summer Games. At the same time, several test events, including beach volleyball, badminton and cycling, are being held.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2011 11:08

+1 to Iran
+1 to sunil gavaskar for suggesting the engrish would have pressed panic button had this happened in India
-2 to BCCI for saying there is a different between this and terrorism
-3 to GOI for not following the Iranian line