Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

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IndraD
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by IndraD »

No shame, no limits: Has the behaviour of the mob destroyed the idea of British civility for ever?
What began to terrify people, especially in areas where the police were absent, was the seemingly limitless nature of what the rioters would do. It had gone far beyond a barney with the coppers and the looting, in particular, it went past all previous bounds; the rioters would loot everything, everywhere; they would attack and rob anyone they came across; they began to break into private houses.
Vigilantes join 16,000 police on capital's streets

Inspired by reports of Turkish and Bangladeshi groups chasing would-be looters out of their neighbourhoods in east London, many shop keepers took to the streets to deter looters. Hundreds of Sikhs turned out in the Southall area last night in a collective show of force after rumours circulated that jewellery shops were going to be targeted.

These fliers are being distributed by rioters-what to do in the event of getting identified

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BhairavP
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by BhairavP »

The photos CAN be used as evidence. They're spreading incorrect information.
Singha
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Singha »

headlines today was showing pix of a couple of men who had been robbed of their pants and shirts on the street, leaving one in a chaddi and the other stark naked.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... admit.html

London riots: 'we can't cope', police admit
Shortly after 9pm on Monday, as daylight bled from the sky, the police finally lost control of London.

By Tim Ross, Heidi Blake, Duncan Gardham and Andrew Hough7:00AM BST 10 Aug 2011

A gang of boys and girls, most no older than 15, and some apparently as young as eight :eek: , broke into a row of shops in Bethnal Green, in the East End. As they left carrying piles of clothes, a police car drove past. It did not stop.
Forty minutes after the first 999 calls were made, two police vans arrived at the scene, already too late.
.............
In Clapham, an area of boutiques and fashionable restaurants beloved of London’s young professionals, residents formed a line to stop the looters getting through. They had little option.
At one point, between 10pm and 11pm, up to 1,000 rioters tore through the area, looting designer shops. Dozens of teenage girls had already stolen suitcases that they now filled with clothes and other items. There were no police officers in sight.
One resident, who gave her name as Daniella, asked: “Where are the police? Why are they not here? People are frightened.”
.............
In Ealing, residents fled their homes in terror when the violence began. One resident, who was named only as Helen, described how she and her family were forced to spend the night at a hotel after hearing thugs break into the shop beneath their flat.
“We were utterly terrified,” she said. “We didn’t know what to do. You could hear people shouting, 'Let’s start fires.’”
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

the initial police tactic of 'letting them crap on their own doorstep' has backfired - encouraged by the lack of police action, the looters went on the rampage

i think the home sec has to call it as it is and support the police in taking firmer action. despite the terrible images, 95% of neighbourhoods are perfectly normal, but lack of action is going to cost votes. the tories are the traditional law and order party - but this will undo them if they dont act

the paternalistic lecturing about law and order and HR from the UK (and the west in general) will now have to come to an end
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Singha »

does not speak highly I am afraid of the moral fibre of UKs young generation if teenagers and young kids as young as 8, who understand nothing of the trigger points are using this as a opportunity to load up on free loot.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

this generation brought up on benefits and free everything is uneducated, unmotivated, unproductive, un-anything... why do you think SDRE's, TDTA'sa and E.Europeans are in the UK in large numbers? they do the jobs that the 'underclass' don't want. black underclass is slightly different - apart from discrimination (which has reduced) they have an in-built culture of macho gangsterism which promotes lawlessness and shuns education and advancement. black guys who break the mould are seen to be not manly by their bro's

the division between the high-folk and the lumpen is as stark as it was in the victorian era... the wellfare state has a lot to answer for...
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by IndraD »

Situation is such that England doesnt have water canons to quell mob, rubber bullets are to be fired when police are fearing for their lives, curfew imposition in night will send wrong signal, jails are full and last night a major fight broke out in Felthan prison-then what is the way out. Any arrest (even in this scenario) has to be justified by the Station officer.

This morning I was talking to a PC and I asked him how long we will have 16 000 + PCs on London streets, what is the assurance riots will not break out again once police is called back (N, S Wales, Scottland) and he said they will have to instill fear in mobs and current mnagement plan may fail.
Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

current plan is totally unworkable
ofcourse the best way to stop rioting is for it to rain for 48hrs, which is not so unusual in the UK... clears the streets immediately
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

RACE.That ugly word is out...on the streets in Britain,or more accurately England and the genie cannot be stuffed back into the bottle. The British urban underclass,comprised mainly of the Black community,who have seen their lot slide further even after two terms of a so-called Socialist Labour govt. have exploded with fury.All the pent up frustration and anger against the establishment,specifically seen in the uniforms of the "fuzz" were waiting to explode fro quite some time.The drastic budget cuts by the new Conservative dispensation lit the fuse ,which was looking for the right opportunity to devastate the country.The spread of the riots all over England shows that the underclass all over the country feel that they have nothing to lose then exprssing their rage and acquiring as many freebies through looting and scooting.

As a regular visitor to the UK for 3 decades now,and akeen observer of the British way of life and fortunes of the nation,it has been sad to watch the decline of the fortunes of the middle class and the steeper plunge of the working class by the year.Just a few months ago,I was in N.London,the epicentre of the current chaos,visiting a close doctor friend at the clinic where my friend works.I was struck by the patients who were almost all from the immigrant communities,mostly black and appeared to be very poor.It was clear that they could not afford a swanky private hospital and depended upon the services of such clinics,which received some support from the NH but not totally,for their medical needs.The collapsing social security net of the state in the UK has been a major factor for such pent up resentment to explode in the manner in which it has done.Yes,opportunistic youth are enjoying their easy pickings as the police seem incapable of handling the situ using traditional tactics,but the malaise is far deeper.The annual summer "Proms",Promenade Concerts at the Royal Albert Hall and the Royal Wedding,enjoyed by "Mittle Englanders", do not touch the lives of the underclass who have revelled in a completely different kind of entertainment.You won't see them at the last day of the "Proms" singing "Land of Hope and Glory"!

One very interesting question.Why has there been little or no rioting from the large combined community of the Indian subcontinent? Is there a cultural angle to this too,apart from the fact that in comparison with the Blacks of Afro-Caribbean origin,the hard working members of our part of the world are better off and less likely to behave like lawbreakers.

Here are two links to how the French stopped/handled their riots,"strikingly similar", by better policing and the factorof Race in the UK today.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 35064.html

The French precedent: Restraint and a curfew were key to restoring order in the banlieues
By John Lichfield in Paris
The French violence began with the deaths of two teenage boys of Arab origin. Their deaths, after running into an electricity sub-station, were blamed by their friends on the police (rightly, it emerged later). The incident sparked riots in Montfermeil and Clichy-sous-Bois, suburbs north-east of Paris. Long-simmering ill-feeling between the police and local youths caused the violence to spread to other poor suburbs of Paris and, within days, to almost every town and city in France.

The internet and mobile phones were used by the rioters to outwit the authorities. Although called "riots", there were few large mobs and set-piece battles. Over 9,000 cars and 300 public buildings were set alight in the space of 20 days, mostly in hit-and-run attacks.

An official report by the security services later concluded that the violence was inspired by hatred of the police, unemployment, hopelessness and a copy-cat desire to have the same fun as the next town or housing estate.

The French riots began to abate after 7 November 2005 when the government declared a state of emergency and a curfew, which strengthened the hand not just of police but also, crucially, of parents and community leaders. All but the hard-core of rioters – mostly aged between 14 and 19 – were gradually persuaded to stay at home.

The second thing the British authorities could learn from the French is the relative restraint displayed by their riot police. Those calling in Britain for the deployment of soldiers – comparatively untrained in street control – should perhaps think again.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 34813.html

Christina Patterson: We can't deny that race plays a part.
Too many black men have been killed by the police. This is not the cause of these riots, but it's in the mix
This is what happens in a war. Wars start for a million different reasons, and the time to understand those reasons is not while the war is going on. They can start – even world wars can start – with a single gunshot. This one did. This one started with an old, old story, of a black man killed by police. It started when a woman wanted to know why four children would never see their father again. And when the police said nothing. And frustration turned, as it often does, and particularly in communities where there's a lot of frustration, to anger, and anger turned, as it often does, and particularly in communities where there are a lot of teenagers with not very much to do, to violence.

And it spread. Do we know if the boys, and young men, smashing windows, and trashing shops, and burning cars, and buses, and buildings, in Hackney, and Croydon, and Brixton, and telling passers-by that what they were doing was "fun", and that they were "trying to get their taxes back", knew about the shooting of the black man, or even cared? Do we know if they knew about the black teenager in Hackney who was stopped and searched by the police, and found to have nothing illegal on him?

Race didn't cause these riots, but it played a part. Why else do you get three black men talking about them on Newsnight, when you almost never see a black man talking about anything on Newsnight? And asked questions about "the black community", as if the people who had had their livelihoods destroyed would have the same views on anything as the 12-year-olds waving iron bars? And why else do you get people talking, as they are on newspaper websites, and radio phone-ins, about "thieving black scum"?
PS:Last year in the UK, I experienced two incidents of racial aggro from two members of the Black community,once in a dept. store and the other when returning at Heathrow despite having a Bus. class tkt. I put both instances down to a sense of deep inferiority as an very elegantly attired "Indian",topi et al, brought out the bile in the two ladies,both middle-aged Black women.As the saying goes,"a beggar never envies a rich man ,only another beggar",no secret which immigrant community envies the other for doing better.The quote below "where all the black workers were in the canteens...",underscores my experience.
There are 169 gangs in London. There are 22 in Hackney alone. These are people, often people who have grown up on estates where almost nobody works, often without fathers, and often without any qualifications, skills, or ambitions, who feel that the world has let them down. The guns and knives they carry make them feel that there's a tiny corner of the world they can control. And because of these boys – no more than 2,000 of them – who carry guns and knives, and because it takes more than reports on "institutional racism" to get rid of "institutional racism", you can hardly walk down a street, if you're black, without being stopped and searched.

Too many black men have been killed by the police. Too many black men and women have been treated like criminals when they're not. This is not the cause of these riots, but it's there in the mix, a mix where the key ingredient is feeling powerless. Cuts won't help. Growing unemployment won't help. Some investment, in youth services, and better schools, and mentoring schemes, might, but money alone isn't the answer.

It wasn't these children who created the culture that told them that what mattered was the brand of their trainers, or the glitter of their bling. It wasn't these children who created the culture that told them that their one hope of escape was hip hop, or fame. It wasn't these children who created the institutions of a country where all the black workers were in the canteens. We have, as a society, created this monster and, as a society, and like those people heading into the trouble spots with dustpans and brushes, we must pick up the pieces.
habal
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by habal »

ok, here's some photos to add to the descriptions.

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NSFW (clothes stolen by rioters)
http://www.abload.de/img/looty1u89.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/2zia8he.jpg
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Last edited by habal on 10 Aug 2011 13:32, edited 1 time in total.
rohitvats
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by rohitvats »

I have a question - why is it not OK to open fire to quell the rioters?

At the end of the day, the equation is pretty simple - of the two opposing forces, police and rioters, rioters are in larger number and they are going to overwhelm the police. Unless, one can bring in assymetry in form of firepower (of whatever form). How on god's earth are you going to make the rioters desist from rioting? There has to be some tangible blowback, which needs to be seen and felt by the rioters from going out on street and looting and setting fire to anything in sight.

If there is insufficient number of police personnel and rioters are not deterred by them, what do you do? After all, in all this pussyfooting, is not the UK government compromising the right of common people (shop and business owners) whose livelihood has been either compromised or put to risk? What about the rights of these people?

IMO, political correctness and/or inability on part of UK Government has led these riots to go so far. And this will set a precedent for others to follow suit.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Neela »

Lalmohan wrote:the initial police tactic of 'letting them crap on their own doorstep' has backfired - encouraged by the lack of police action, the looters went on the rampage

i think the home sec has to call it as it is and support the police in taking firmer action. despite the terrible images, 95% of neighbourhoods are perfectly normal, but lack of action is going to cost votes. the tories are the traditional law and order party - but this will undo them if they dont act

the paternalistic lecturing about law and order and HR from the UK (and the west in general) will now have to come to an end
Absolutely.
Next time they preach about the middle-east and third-world nations, they have to be told that the third-world nations cannot afford public and private property to be wasted like in rich Britain. Ouch!
rohitvats wrote: IMO, political correctness and/or inability on part of UK Government has led these riots to go so far. And this will set a precedent for others to follow suit.
I though Phillip had a interesting observation earlier on and I am extrapolating on that.
It appears as though the police expected the riots to calm down after the first day - this explains why police presence was limited to a few areas and all resources were not pooled in. Orders must have come from the highest offices where "International opinion" is a cause for worry. The politicains must have thought "Ok this will die down and we can lecture the Arab nations on how to handle riots". Little did they realise that this was brewing into a countrywide unrest and venting of frustration. it has taken 3 full days to realize that things were getting out of control. And as in all such riots, the power of the police MUST be visible and must be demonstrated to show the rioters who is in control. They only did that yesterday deploying 16k policemen.
Last edited by Neela on 10 Aug 2011 13:39, edited 1 time in total.
JE Menon
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

I don't understand why curfew has not been imposed (I think it's "pride" - as in, "we don't do this sort of thing in Britain"; that was only for colonies).

I mean given that it continued for a 2nd day, a shoot on sight curfew should have been imposed on the 3rd day itself. Crazy. Or were they worried that the riotous protesters may shoot back.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

You know,some of the scenes of police inaction reminds me of that film,"Demolition Man", set in the future where " San Angeles" becomes a "pacifist utopia",starring Stallone and Sandra Bullock where crime is almost non-existant and cops use no "stick"!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Ambar »

JEM, we had some armed robberies by teens ( almost all blacks) in downtown Philly in the recent years. Now there is a strict curfew on teenagers being out after 8 on weekdays and extended till 9 PM on weekends. I have seen teens as young as 15 being surrounded by half a dozen police cars,dragged,handcuffed and taken away. Police excess ? Maybe. But atleast it sends a strong message that cops will do what it takes to maintain order. LA has more blacks and latinos than entire Britain, yet the Rodney King riots was mostly quelled within first 2 days with over 35 shot dead ( some at point blank range by cops ). We now know how even seemingly modern and free societies can become completely anarchic with flip of a dime, political correctness be damned,save the country.

Philip, its a coincidence that you thought of a line about pacifism from a movie! I was thinking the same earlier today.There is a legendary line by the character Walter in 'The Big Lebowski' where he says "pacifism is not something that you hide behind!".Truest words ever spoken!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by abhischekcc »

I think that the British authorities simply do not have a clue as to how to handle this - what with multi-culti BS actually dribbling down in their brains.

Or they figure that once the goods have all been looted, the rioters will settle down in front of their newly looted TVs, heat looted dinners in their looted microwaves, and watch looted p0rn CDs.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

Ambar,just yesterday,3 protesting farmers who blocked the Bombay-Pune expressway were killed in police firing,the cops saying that they had no alternative when the protests got violent.Without prejudice to the truth of that sad event,it is the response of the cops that sends the message to would-be rioters.I remember a late relative,former DG of Police,when he was a mere SP,saying that he always told his men to shoot to kill if the situ deteriorated beyond control and led by example.

Latest news,3 killed in Birmingham.Large smoke near New St.Stn.
• Murder investigation after three killed in Birmingham crash
• Boris Johnson: government is wrong to cut police numbers
• Unrest in Birmingham, West Bromwich, Salford, Manchester
• Violence spreads to Gloucester, Cambridge and Nottingham
• London spared fourth night of violence as arrests reach 768
• Cameron to chair second meeting of COBRA committee
Another viewpoint from the Telegraph this time on the "Race".riots.
Katharine Birbalsingh

Katharine Birbalsingh is the teacher who exposed the failings of the comprehensive school system at the Conservative Party conference last year. Katharine has been teaching in inner London for over a decade and plans to set up a Free School in south London to help to serve underprivileged children. Her book, To Miss with Love, is out now. These riots were about race. Why ignore the fact?

By Katharine Birbalsingh Politics
August 7th, 2011

What colour is Mark Duggan? Mark Duggan is the man who was shot dead by the police on Thursday in Tottenham. The Tottenham riots last night were sparked when people protested his death. This morning, I first heard of the riots on the radio, then on the television. I read articles on the internet. But oddly, no one would say what colour Mark Duggan was. No one would say the unsayable, that the rioters were, I suspect on the whole, black. Then, finally, Toby Young’s Telegraph blog post on the riots was published. Is Toby Young the only journalist out there who will dare say that these riots are about race?

Still, one paper did carry a photo of Mr Duggan. When I saw the photo, it confirmed what I knew instinctively: black youths once again have set London alight.

Some of the black kids I used to teach will tell you that the riots are absolutely justified. A number of adults would agree with them. Everywhere I read that the protest was understandable because “people are very angry”.

I’d like to know what they’re angry about. Mark Duggan is dead. He was shot by the police in a shootout. Duggan was in a minicab and shots were fired from both the cab and the police elsewhere. A police officer was hurt in the incident and a bullet was found lodged in a police radio. Either Duggan was shooting at the police or the driver of the minicab was. Either Duggan was in the wrong place at the wrong time and his death is a terrible tragedy – he was caught in the crossfire – or he shot at the police and the police defended themselves. Whatever the explanation, the police did not kill this man in cold blood.

Yet, a friend of Duggan who gave her name as Niki, 53, said marchers had wanted “justice for the family” and “something had to be done”. She said some of them lay in the road to make their point. “They’re making their presence known because people are not happy. This guy was not violent. Yes, he was involved in things but he was not an aggressive person. He had never hurt anyone.”

I wonder what “involved in things” means? I also wonder whether the police officer who was hurt at the scene believes Mark Duggan never hurt anyone. “Something had to be done”? She makes it sound as if the police are killing black people every other weekend and finally someone decided to take a stand.

At school I remember watching a presentation given to the kids by Trident, the Metropolitan Police Service unit set up to investigate and inform communities of gun crime in London’s black community. I didn’t know what Trident was then, and it struck me that all of the photos of people shot (the idea was to scare the kids) were black. So at the end, I approached one of the policemen and asked him what percentage of those involved in gun crime were black. I kid you not, but my question made this thirty-something white man who was, after all, trained to deal with the black community and its issues, turn pink.

He explained that about 80 per cent of gun crime took place in the black community. I smiled uncomfortably. But no, he said, it was worse than that. Then he told me that 80 per cent was black on black gun crime, and that of the remaining 20 per cent about 75 per cent involved at least one black person: black shooting white, or white shooting black. I pushed to know more. While he kept saying his stats were crude and he didn’t have scientific numbers, on the whole the whites who were involved in these shootings tended to be from Eastern Europe.

Was any of this ever mentioned in their presentation? Of course not. Just like the news about the Tottenham riots doesn’t mention race either.

Problems cannot be addressed unless people are willing to tell the truth. As with so many other things in this country, we stick our heads in the sand and refuse to speak out about it.
Last edited by Philip on 10 Aug 2011 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by IndraD »

messages like these were circulated over blackberry

Image

^^ 3 deaths happened around 1 am in night when they (asians part of a vigilante group) were run over by a car
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

Leading article: Britain has experienced its Katrina moment

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/le ... 34812.html

At the weekend the levees burst and we have been witnessing the ugly results
Wednesday, 10 August 2011

Xcpts:
Britain has been plunged into an urban nightmare. Parts of some of our largest cities, London in particular, have witnessed a terrifying breakdown of law and order. Shops have been smashed and looted. Properties have been vandalised. Families have been burned out of their homes. Cars have been set on fire. Running battles have been fought between gangs of youths and riot police. For days the capital has been awash with trepidation.

The political ramifications will be profound. This is beginning to look like the Government's Hurricane Katrina. George Bush's Republican administration looked clueless when the levees broke in 2005, engulfing the city of New Orleans. The same can be said of the Coalition since the violence first flared at the weekend. The impression left by Theresa May yesterday, where the Home Secretary surreally implored listeners of the BBC's Today programme to report rioters, was of anything but grip. David Cameron returned from holiday yesterday in response to the crisis, but his attempts to project authority were scarcely any more convincing.
The great state departments of education, welfare, health and housing have failed these groups. Far too little has been done by successive generations of politicians and public servants to integrate these individuals into normal society. The fuse for this explosion has been burning down for years, perhaps even decades. If any good can emerge from the horrors of recent days it will be that we finally face up to the shame of our excluded underclass.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

for context, there have been no police/army firings on crowds in england for decades - if not since ww2. no water cannons, no rubber bullets - only baton wielding riot police - there have been serious riots pretty much every decade. army on the streets has only happened in northern ireland, and one firing incident (bloody sunday) leading to the death of around 14 protestors has been a MASSIVE political issue in the UK ever since. only a couple of years ago there was another enquiry which was more of a truth and reconciliation council type effort. politically in mainland england - such "extreme" measures are really really unusual and will be used as a sign by the political opposition that things are totally out of control. i.e. for a home sec and pm to authorise such force is a big political gamble

however, unless things remain calm tonight - time has run out for softly softly
its only going to get worse
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

the three men killed by the car crashing rioter are muslims from south asia
bbc careful not to use any race descriptors for any of those involved
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JwalaMukhi »

It is actually time for UK to dismantle humongous waste of its investment in "new-clear" weapons and use those savings to actually create productive citizens. Someone has to remind that a puny island is trying to punch above its weight and is indulging in gross negligence of its poor people. Also, while at it someone has remind that the bygone eras of sophisticated crooks with high education and armani suits and gucci loafers, to screw other "third worlders" is bygone. It will no longer be easy to loot, thieve and become shopkeepers based on looted things from poor and wretched third world nations. Not only because it is tough, but because they have sucked dry african continent and have set them on a path of perennial basket cases.

It is time to wisen up and learn hard work and teach the same to the young kids, by example. Poor kids are indulging to get day to day neccessities such as water bottles, food, telly , cell phones 8) and aren't interested to become armani wearing educated folks to shaft other third world nations. Their needs are immediate and probably that needs to be addressed first.
Time to roll up sleeves and work to earn an honest keep and not depend on shopkeeping stolen wares from other lesser nations.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by SwamyG »

Singha wrote:+1 to Iran
+1 to sunil gavaskar for suggesting the engrish would have pressed panic button had this happened in India
-2 to BCCI for saying there is a different between this and terrorism
-3 to GOI for not following the Iranian line
-10 to Dhoni for playing safe off-field - when asked about the riots.
-100 to Dhoni for not playing safe on-field - actual cricket.
-1000 to Dhoni for answering in English to a question asked in Hindi.
sanjeevpunj
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjeevpunj »

If this sort of situation arose in Delhi, would Indian students resort to similar behaviour? IMO the answer is NO, but then,who knows.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Singha »

I liked the guy making off with the bag of basmati rice. all the other material items can possibly be id'ed based on serial# which vendors tend to have records of, but making off with rice n fish is a practical strategy. and he can claim minority oppression if police come and take away his food.

wonder if the apple store(s) in london would be targeted...lots of aspirational merchandise therein
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Dilbu »

In his statement David Cameron said he would not let "phoney concerns about human rights get in the way" of publishing images of those suspected of rioting and looting.
Hainji? Hooman rites are only for third world countries, no?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by KLNMurthy »

Ambar wrote:JEM, we had some armed robberies by teens ( almost all blacks) in downtown Philly in the recent years. Now there is a strict curfew on teenagers being out after 8 on weekdays and extended till 9 PM on weekends. I have seen teens as young as 15 being surrounded by half a dozen police cars,dragged,handcuffed and taken away. Police excess ? Maybe. But atleast it sends a strong message that cops will do what it takes to maintain order. LA has more blacks and latinos than entire Britain, yet the Rodney King riots was mostly quelled within first 2 days with over 35 shot dead ( some at point blank range by cops ). We now know how even seemingly modern and free societies can become completely anarchic with flip of a dime, political correctness be damned,save the country.

Philip, its a coincidence that you thought of a line about pacifism from a movie! I was thinking the same earlier today.There is a legendary line by the character Walter in 'The Big Lebowski' where he says "pacifism is not something that you hide behind!".Truest words ever spoken!
The situation in LA during Rodney King riots is not comparable with the present situation in UK. True that the King riots had a black vs white flavor but Blacks in LA were also part of the ruling political coalition in LA, represented by mayor Tom Bradley, a highly respected Black man who was the then face of the coalition.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Singha »

true I guess. but I have never heard of black cops roughing up white guys, only the other way around. perhaps regardless of how powerful blacks are in city politics, the police and justice system (DA office) seem to have a white bias and pre-conceived notions about blacks....?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by KLNMurthy »

Singha wrote:true I guess. but I have never heard of black cops roughing up white guys, only the other way around. perhaps regardless of how powerful blacks are in city politics, the police and justice system (DA office) seem to have a white bias and pre-conceived notions about blacks....?
I would say there are continuing racial and other problems with LAPD but I give them a lot of credit for transforming themselves into something approaching a community protection force from their post WW2 mission which was to be a paramilitary force to keep the blacks in control.

In part the change came due to aggressive efforts to make the process of managemebt recruiting and oversight more democratic and participatory. A case of political process paying off.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by shravan »

Three Pakistanis killed by car in Birmingham riots

LONDON: Three Pakistani men died Wednesday after being hit by a car during riots in Birmingham, officials said, as witnesses said they died while trying to protect their community from looters.

The deceased include two brothers Shehzad Hussain and Haroon Hussain and another youth Mussavir Ali.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

london and uk police as a whole have come a long way from the 70's when they were more like the LAPD without guns. there are significant numbers of black and asian officers in the force now, and much less 'institionalised racism' than there used to be. met police in particular have made a lot of community outreach efforts, but the community has not progressed either - getting a bit fed up of black political activists making a hoo-haa about police brutality, etc.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by shyamd »

^^ True for London and maybe Birmingham. But I can't say the same for rest of the country I'm afraid. If memory serves me right they had to kick out a lot of police officers from Ithink North Wales for being hard core racists and stuff just a few years ago. Wasn't there allegations a few years ago by an Indian origin police officer from leicester about racism?

There is still a lot of institutional racism within the police force. To be fair The met has done well I think.

The traffic police guys are the worst of the lot if you ask me.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Johann »

Every single looter out there who has spoken to a journalist has described the thrill of realising that "no one can control them".

Middle England's patience is starting to run a bit thin though.

In the end the property owning classes - from the lower middle to the ultra-rich of all colours and all religions will fight to protect their investments, and they will support each other in the court of public opinion. So will the Tories - just before the riots the Cameron declared his backing for homeowners and small businesses that use proportionate force to defend themselves.

If the state is too hamstrung by politics and law, then communities will step in, and then things could get *really* ugly.

That is the one thing that will allow the state to act more firmly - because that is the point at which even the most determined critics of the state will be forced to acknowledge that strong policing is better than the alternative, which is the underclass having the stuffing kicked out of them by people who might well be a lot less restrained than the police.

On the whole though I don't think public consensus has shifted on the subject of whether its worth killing to save property and ensure public order.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Johann, why not a curfew? It's a bloody shame those small businesses being burnt down just on the whim of adolescents!!! Or cordons sanitaire for that matter in affected zones.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjeevpunj »

The british loved to impose curfews in India pre-1947. What happened now? Chickening out on their own turf?

The could simply borrow our IPC 144 text and email it to all mobile numbers in UK.

Whoever, being armed with any deadly weapon, or with anything which, used as a weapon of offence, is likely to cause death, is a member of an unlawful assembly, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.

That ought to scare off the kids.
Last edited by sanjeevpunj on 10 Aug 2011 20:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Johann »

JEM,

Two reasons.

- Curfews are maintained with the threat of real force. If the police had the freedom to use force in that manner things would have never come to this pass in the first place.

- No one can claim that the situation is 'normal', but declaring curfew even in selected areas, along with calling out the Army is the equivalent of declaring the total loss of control. They've managed to contain serious riots in the last 60 years without doing it, and no one in charge wants to be the person who breaks that precedent if they can help it.

I expect the police will put a lot of work in to reassuring the public over the next few days, weeks and months - keeping a strong presence on the streets for the next few days, identifying and arresting looters and rioters, and at least showing the broad outlines of how they will contain any similar instances in the future. They will have to work very hard to regain public confidence, but the majority of society want to see them succeed.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

Colonialism stopped the regular riots that used to plauge England during the last thousand years.

No curfew due to cognitive dissonance. All those are for other countries.

In end the British will come thru and be allright. These are testing times.

No need for gloating or shaden freude or whatever.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Johann »

Sanjeevpunj,

I don't know how old you are or how much time you have spent there, but the Britains of 1947 and 2011 are not the same country. There are no hanging judges, and for that matter no death penalty since 1969. The pendulum moves one way, and then it moves another. Whether you are inside or outside the country, I am not sure why you would want the old Britain back...
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Johann,

By the second night, it was clear things were getting out of hand. Cannot a curfew (the announcement alone would have made most people stay at home) be enforced by the police, who apparently have been given the authority now to use plastic bullets? No need to bring the army in. I mean, so much of property damage and destruction of small business operations could have been avoided. I can understand the reluctance to set a precedent... but the situation so far already seems unprecedented.

There is a bit of unavoidable smugness on BRF given the regular lectures we receive from auntie. But still, few I'm sure are pleased by this wanton destruction going on. Anyway, let's hope things get under control sooner rather than later.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by KLNMurthy »

Johann wrote:Sanjeevpunj,

I don't know how old you are or how much time you have spent there, but the Britains of 1947 and 2011 are not the same country. There are no hanging judges, and for that matter no death penalty since 1969. The pendulum moves one way, and then it moves another. Whether you are inside or outside the country, I am not sure why you would want the old Britain back...
The brits are not doing the rioting youths any favors by not imposing and implementing a strict curfew. Many of them could salvage their lives and become productive citizens but not if they get the message that there are no boundaries in life. At least a few of them, I'll wager, will turn to A Certain Very Draconian Religion in their quest for some order and structure in their lives, and some of those will become Soldiers and Martyrs for The Grand Cause.

It is better that "auntie" herself impose some order and discipline rather than impotently wringing her hands.
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