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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:04 
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brihaspati wrote:
If there are dogs, cows, dirt, traffic gridlocks, urination, defecation - they are still our dogs, cows, dirt, traffic gridlocks. We don't want them to persist, and we will clear them - but we will do them according to overall priorities and targets and resources. Its our business and none of theirs.


Well, it doesn't matter who owns these cows and dogs. They need to be removed from the cities and the cities cleaned up ASAP.
And this is not happening.
In fact, we are going in the opposite direction.
And the powers that are, don't care.
Neither do the people who vote for these netas.

If people don't lose their H&D when a stray dog takes a public dump next to the open sewer beside the road, I doubt they care when it is shown in full HD on international channels.
This is not some private bedroom stuff that was filmed secretly, but a daily feature of Indian public life that is open for all to see.

We can either (a) eliminate this problem ASAP or (b) sweep it under the carpet by banning such reports PRC style and pretend everything is spic-n-span
I suspect (a) would be a better long term solution. I doubt (b) is even workable in India.

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We have not gone in and made short films on say how dirty the tube platforms get in UK, or railway stations get. We have not made short films on how dirty and garbage strewn side streets get in many places. We have not made short films on council estates and how people live in many places. We have not made short films on the homeless kids or squatters and really under what conditions even squatters live. The list can go on and on.


And who stopped Indians from doing that? :?:

If people feel so strongly about it, nothing is stopping them from filming all this, making a nice documentary called the 'Glory of Britannia' and putting it on a 24x7 loop on one of the satellite channels.
Add the sordid domestic life of the 'royals' on the special edition DVD as a bonus feature too :P

I suspect the reason why no indian has done it is because we have better things to do.
Clearly the people at BBC don't have anything better to do, hence their obsession with painting themselves as soop-e-rear by mocking/insulting other countries.


Last edited by Purush on 14 Jan 2012 21:10, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:09 
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brihaspati wrote:
Look at the "valet parking" business for example. If its not that obvious - then may I point out how Indian traffic "habits" are represented? You are claiming that it is all self-depreciating?


What part was that? During the party in Nai Dilli?


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:10 
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b ji, driving habit is not 'represented', it stares you in the face till you crash into the nearest car. it happens to the most seasoned of desi drivers.

what was the valet parking thing ?


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:23 
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It is very likely that many of my own reactions to the video are coloured by my own personality which I believe has a fairly deep connection, if not understanding of British culture.

But I see a subtext in this video. The scenes and stunts shown could not have been done without lots of permissions and the use of local expertise. in filming outdoor scenes in India. They would have to have had local help for servicing the cars and the scenes that showed the cars being winched up for a change of tyres and other modifications being done. Even in India the police will haul up a car that has its exhaust coming out the bonnet blocking the drivers view.

Most of the tiffin boxes were empty - so that was clearly "arranged". The well heeled Delhi crowd were there knowing what to expect like movie extras - and that explosion and breaking glass were clearly Bollywood. There is no way the police would have allowed people playing with fireworks and bombs sans permission. Indians are the first to accuse our police of high handedness and fake encounters - but lets face it- our police have by and large kept terror at bay for most people most of the time.

This program was some sort of Christmas gift to Britain. It was self deprecating insofar as the fact that all of India's cliched negatives were shown or announced but none was used as a prop to show British supremacy - which is really the norm for anyone who highlights Indian negatives.

I think Top Gear does better programs and this one was not worth it. The ended up insulting Indians and the British. You have to have some serious degree of irony to actually enjoy it. It was a sort of cheap schoolboy/college humor. Since I am still occasionally cheap and schoolboyish I admit enjoying some jokes - but it was a pathetic program mostly.


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:29 
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shiv wrote:
But I see a subtext in this video. The scenes and stunts shown could not have been done without lots of permissions and the use of local expertise. in filming outdoor scenes in India.

Undoubtedly so.
This is true with most of these Top gear episodes, especially with the previous 'Christmas Specials'; most of it is premeditated and choreographed.


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:42 
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Purush wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
If there are dogs, cows, dirt, traffic gridlocks, urination, defecation - they are still our dogs, cows, dirt, traffic gridlocks. We don't want them to persist, and we will clear them - but we will do them according to overall priorities and targets and resources. Its our business and none of theirs.


Well, it doesn't matter who owns these cows and dogs. They need to be removed from the cities and the cities cleaned up ASAP.
And this is not happening.
In fact, we are going in the opposite direction.
And the powers that are, don't care.
Neither do the people who vote for these netas.


Purush you have missed the bus in that post. India is NOT going to clear roads of cows and dogs anytime soon. I have persistently tried to make the point that Indians think and behave differently from others that we perhaps want to emulate. But Indians really do see animals as having equal rights to this world. Indians have been bashed for being "hypocritical" because they don't have rights for people but wax eloquent about rights for animals.

But then - you see didn't I say we think differently? Our worldview is different. Will post more thoughts in the usual thread under burqa. OT for this thread


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 21:48 
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In the West, when people have broached the subject of cows on the streets in India, I've just told them, yes, we cannot remove them, cuz cows need some freedom too. We are a free society!


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 22:09 
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One last post before I head off to Skyrim for the night.

I completely oppose cruelty to animals, but that doesn't mean I support cows and dogs roaming freely on the roads. :!: :!: :!:

Cows should be allowed full freedom, in properly enclosed and secured locations, preferably outside the city, where they can roam safely, eat well and be taken care of properly.
Just not on the roads where they pose serious traffic hazards, disrupt (the already chaotic) traffic flow, defecate all over the place, eat hazardous garbage etc.
For their own benefit as well as ours.

This goes x399 for dogs which sometimes are a serious problem in some areas (eg. Kochi and Bangalore come to mind readily), attacking passersby, acting as vectors for nasty diseases (rabies?), causing traffic accidents etc.

Otherwise, animal lovers who support free roaming cows and dogs in our cities should adopt these animals and let them roam freely inside their houses/compounds/apartments.
Also, add a few rats to your apartment while you're at it.

-----------
Doc, noted. This is fast going OT indeed; will check Burkha forum tomorrow.


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 22:27 
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Purush wrote:
Doc, noted. This is fast going OT indeed; will check Burkha forum tomorrow.


Maybe not tomorrow - I have some thoughts that I am still composing Sorry OT


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 22:42 
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Purush wrote:
Cows should be allowed full freedom, in properly enclosed and secured locations, preferably outside the city, where they can roam safely, eat well and be taken care of properly.
Just not on the roads where they pose serious traffic hazards, disrupt (the already chaotic) traffic flow, defecate all over the place, eat hazardous garbage etc.

Otherwise, animal lovers who support free roaming cows and dogs in our cities should adopt these animals and let them roam freely inside their houses/compounds/apartments.
Also, add a few rats to your apartment while you're at it.

One needs to respond to a Western audience without needing to hang one's head! How are you going to do it?


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 23:34 
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Dan Mazer wrote:
In case you haven't seen this show:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnbdaw ... shortfilms
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnbdgl ... shortfilms

I saw this when it was aired and struggle to understand what exactly I'm supposed to get offended by. The only thing which might be mildly offensive (to some) might be the toilet modification done to his car by Clarkson.


I didn't find anything offensive and stuff which cannot be ignored. I think most of the Hype is just to create publicity.


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 23:47 
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Purush wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
If there are dogs, cows, dirt, traffic gridlocks, urination, defecation - they are still our dogs, cows, dirt, traffic gridlocks. We don't want them to persist, and we will clear them - but we will do them according to overall priorities and targets and resources. Its our business and none of theirs.


Well, it doesn't matter who owns these cows and dogs. They need to be removed from the cities and the cities cleaned up ASAP.
And this is not happening.
In fact, we are going in the opposite direction.
And the powers that are, don't care.
Neither do the people who vote for these netas.


I should have probably explained what "our" implied : ours as in our culture. Indians have responded to their environment usually in the most sustainable ways - something which is not always appreciated in the high-energy consumption mode now worshipped. Throughout India you will find a lot of dogs, freely roaming about around villages and wherever people gather. Monkeys are tolerated - who show even more rascaliness.

One of the problems with "city dwellers" of modern India is that they perhaps begin to fall victim to their own propaganda - that somehow they have climbed up from the low, low existence out there in the dirty villages and rural towns - and just by being in the city - now belong to an elevated existence completely disjunct from the greater Indian existence. The model is the picture postcard and hollywood or Pathe versions of US or British life. Hence we need to have the city dog-free, cow-free, slum-free, chota-log free - because those things do not appear in BBC pics of Londonistan.

I will address the "no control of the dog/cow problem" issue in more appropriate threads. But in this thread, just will say that you need to really visit and stay up in Londonistan as well as other well-known cities and navigate the backwaters of city-life before you denounce the Indian cities on canine/bovine issues. Dog poo litters most side streets - unless it is a real, real, upmarket area with lots of sensitive skins and noses.

Visit France - oh, do -please do! Parts of Italiy and Greece. Welcome to dog-poo streets.

Quote:
If people don't lose their H&D when a stray dog takes a public dump next to the open sewer beside the road, I doubt they care when it is shown in full HD on international channels.
This is not some private bedroom stuff that was filmed secretly, but a daily feature of Indian public life that is open for all to see.


As I pointed out - the real objection was not about showing this. It was about not showing similar stuff that happens right under BBC's nose and much closer to home in Europe. WE DONT SEE SIMILAR FULL HD VIDEOS FOR THESE HOME OR CLOSE TO HOME TURF FROM THESE SELFDEPRECATORS.

Quote:
We can either (a) eliminate this problem ASAP or (b) sweep it under the carpet by banning such reports PRC style and pretend everything is spic-n-span
I suspect (a) would be a better long term solution. I doubt (b) is even workable in India.


Its a democracy - as you pointed out. In democracies roads are crooked and twisted - while they are straight in dictaorships or monarchies. The very right base don which you are claiming that certain methods won't work in India also implies that unless "people" think it is important, it will not be done. Cant have your chappati and eat it too!

Quote:
Quote:
We have not gone in and made short films on say how dirty the tube platforms get in UK, or railway stations get. We have not made short films on how dirty and garbage strewn side streets get in many places. We have not made short films on council estates and how people live in many places. We have not made short films on the homeless kids or squatters and really under what conditions even squatters live. The list can go on and on.


And who stopped Indians from doing that? :?:

If people feel so strongly about it, nothing is stopping them from filming all this, making a nice documentary called the 'Glory of Britannia' and putting it on a 24x7 loop on one of the satellite channels.
Add the sordid domestic life of the 'royals' on the special edition DVD as a bonus feature too :P

I suspect the reason why no indian has done it is because we have better things to do.
Clearly the people at BBC don't have anything better to do, hence their obsession with painting themselves as soop-e-rear by mocking/insulting other countries.


You have given the answer partly - in that Indians have not thought of it as so crucial to preserve their own H&D as to go and bash up another culture on the sly. But on the other hand just because Indians did not do so, does not mean that they should also meekly accept such surreptitious bashing from others.


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 23:54 
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Purush ji and RM,
its the ND party.

RM, when people start comparing driving habits - I would request them to go and drive not just for a day or two in Londonistan [the country as a whole] but drive as a resident for months - especially on Friday nights. I suggest people take drives on French roads, Greek roads, Portuguese roads, and even Italian roads. I have driven along stretches of German roads. Aachen-Munich. Ulm-Frankfurt. I do find it rather strange that BBC does not focus its cameras on these roads.


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2012 23:59 
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Purush wrote:
One last post before I head off to Skyrim for the night.

I completely oppose cruelty to animals, but that doesn't mean I support cows and dogs roaming freely on the roads. :!: :!: :!:

Cows should be allowed full freedom, in properly enclosed and secured locations, preferably outside the city, where they can roam safely, eat well and be taken care of properly.
Just not on the roads where they pose serious traffic hazards, disrupt (the already chaotic) traffic flow, defecate all over the place, eat hazardous garbage etc.
For their own benefit as well as ours.

This goes x399 for dogs which sometimes are a serious problem in some areas (eg. Kochi and Bangalore come to mind readily), attacking passersby, acting as vectors for nasty diseases (rabies?), causing traffic accidents etc.

Otherwise, animal lovers who support free roaming cows and dogs in our cities should adopt these animals and let them roam freely inside their houses/compounds/apartments.
Also, add a few rats to your apartment while you're at it.

-----------
Doc, noted. This is fast going OT indeed; will check Burkha forum tomorrow.


in our previous rural lifestyle - cows roaming or dogs squatting would not be a problem becaus ethere would be plenty of space. Same lifestyle becomes a problem in the unplanned glorified sewerages that our cities have become.

We need to rethink our settlement patterns given our cultural and real eco-environment. Instead of blaming the people entirely - its the urban planners who also need to be blamed, and new forms of modernization of living habitats need to be figured out. But not on the basis of lifetstyles or models put forward by selective representations by semi-official [or imager whitewashres of the respective states] media outlets.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 00:53 
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RajeshA wrote:
In the West, when people have broached the subject of cows on the streets in India, I've just told them, yes, we cannot remove them, cuz cows need some freedom too. We are a free society!



Funnily enough, I made a similar point when a french turd pointed out some rats! :)

Have they no rats in gay paree??


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 02:38 
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/04/us-london-pests-idUSTRE62333Z20100304
London stage fright: rats, mice and fleas: survey
LONDON | Thu Mar 4, 2010 10:52am EST

Quote:
(Reuters) - Performers in London's West End are having to cope with a different kind of stage fright in the form of mice, rat and flea infestations in theatres, according to a new survey by actors' union Equity.

"The findings have shocked even hardened West Enders," the union said in its report, which found that three quarters of actors and stage managers reported regular infestations including mice, rats and fleas.

Equity general secretary Christine Payne said the findings suggested that each night, more than 600 actors and stage managers would go to work knowing they were likely to see and smell vermin, "both living and decomposing," at work.

"I accept that many West End theatres are old and difficult buildings to manage, but this is running out of control," she added. "These appalling conditions must come to an end."

The survey was completed by nearly 350 performers and stage managers in 24 different theatres, many of them featuring world-famous shows.

Individuals surveyed reported that floors had been eaten by mice which also left droppings and unpleasant smells.

"I had tiny bite marks on my lipstick recently when I left the lid off," one respondent said.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 02:40 
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brihaspati wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/04/us-london-pests-idUSTRE62333Z20100304
[Individuals surveyed reported that floors had been eaten by mice which also left droppings and unpleasant smells."I had tiny bite marks on my lipstick recently when I left the lid off," one respondent said.
[/quote]

i wont discount Paki employed there are slaughtering animals there causing infestation.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 02:43 
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http://www.derelictlondon.com/id63.htm

A sampler of wildlife of London - including "rats" and "foxes".

Quote:
According to the 1995 National Rodent Census, one in 20 UK properties is infested with rats.
Rats are beneath your feet in the old London sewer tunnels. If you walked down a sewer and trod on a dead rat it would be likely to explode like a chicken kiev!
Every hour in London 4000 rats are born!
[...]
The British rat population is estimated at somewhere around 60 million, which is pretty much the same as its human population. The main differences are the rats' superior repro capabilities. Rats can kill us: their urine can carry a water-borne bacteria causing liver or kidney failure.


There is one rat for every human in Britland. Or one Brit for every Brit rat. Tempted to make a more unkind cut but desisting.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 03:01 
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There are many web-resources people can search for about abandoned/stray/feral gangs of dogs in Britain. Liverpool and certain cities of Wales will come up often. My experience with Bristol and Liverpool is that they have gone down over the years, but they are still found. Another part is the sudden increase of abandoned residential areas - where feral populations seem to be thriving. Dog-poo in Paris streets is a well known French-beater - but BBC seems unable to devote an episode to it. Or Athens for example.

No self-deprecating documentaries on it. Maybe Indians ashamed of dogs on their streets can take a cue from artsy scene in London - where hip musicians take pride in tagging themselves as "London rats" or "street dogs".


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 05:20 
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This discussion is going like a Paki style response to criticism. Cant believe we are searching every nook and corner of Britland for Stray dogs and rats. BBC/ Brits might be second only to Pakis in hating India and doing everything to show India in bad light but we cannot deny our pathetic attitude towards hygiene, Order etc. Rationalizing the existence of stray dogs and cows will only give temporary relief but the problem wont go away. And also we cannot ignore the fact that most here have settled in west only to avoid all these problems.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 07:13 
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Charlie wrote:
This discussion is going like a Paki style response to criticism. Cant believe we are searching every nook and corner of Britland for Stray dogs and rats. BBC/ Brits might be second only to Pakis in hating India and doing everything to show India in bad light but we cannot deny our pathetic attitude towards hygiene, Order etc. Rationalizing the existence of stray dogs and cows will only give temporary relief but the problem wont go away. And also we cannot ignore the fact that most here have settled in west only to avoid all these problems.


Really?!!!!
No one has denied the fact of stray dogs and cows in India. But why does it hit so hard on certain chords to see the fact of even Brit land being subject to rats and stray dogs or foxes - being exposed and pointed out? By the way you dont need to visit every nook and cranny to see strays. Or do you mind if people really looked up?

Isnt it rather strange to denounce Indians for supposedly reacting to dog-cow exposes in India - and then reacting similarly to feral animal exposes in Britland?

By the way, is it so important to prove one's desperation to distance oneself from India - by copying the arrogance of the British in stereotyping other cultures and declare that "most" Indians have settled in west only to "avoid" all these publicly roaming cow/dog problems? I can understand the Brit mindset - for moving over to other people's lands - because when they first started eyeing up lands like India - their own cities were rat and dog and sewerage infested. They might have started intriguing and colonizing out of that hatred of their own free-wheeling animals and open gutters and plagues. But why extend that motivation to most "Indians"!


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 07:17 
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If it was a true Paki-style [which was actually soo admired by generations of Brit aristos and culture buffs and admins] response - it would have said that there were no dogs/cows roaming freely in India. A flat denial even in the face of video evidence. That would be Paki style.

If it was BBC style - it would be total silence on any reference to freely roaming dogs/cows in India, while talking about strays and foxes in other lands.

Since neither was adopted here - it was not Pakis style or even BBC style discussion.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 07:31 
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A rabid locusts of britturds shaved a wonderful, dignified, and prosperous people with sanskriti into destitutes. Now, the same brit turds are mocking at the penury of the civilization and commenting about the dignity of the people, who they helped to set priorities about other simple grand things as eeking out a living and survival.

A gentle civilization that was one of the richest, if not the richest of all the nations was turned into one of the poorest if not the poorest by the brit turds. (When brit turds entered india, to when they left.) It helps to remember one of pirate front end of columbus voyage lost its way on its mission to set the beachhead to plunder indian nation. The present queen was the front runner and head of such pirates, who routinely approved raids just like the present day somalia pirates.

The brit turds are indulging in poverty p0rn of a nation that they cleaned out like locusts! Go figure.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 07:44 
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Charlie wrote:
This discussion is going like a Paki style response to criticism. Cant believe we are searching every nook and corner of Britland for Stray dogs and rats. BBC/ Brits might be second only to Pakis in hating India and doing everything to show India in bad light but we cannot deny our pathetic attitude towards hygiene, Order etc. Rationalizing the existence of stray dogs and cows will only give temporary relief but the problem wont go away. And also we cannot ignore the fact that most here have settled in west only to avoid all these problems.


Absolutely true. But If you have lived in India and then you move to Britain you can be excused for thinking that milk is produced by machines, like Coke. I have often said that as a joke, but a child who grows up in urban britain who is not taught that milk is produced. It turns out that everyone is taught, so he knows.

Animals (other than pets who can be controlled to conform to a narrow definition of civilized human behavior) are segregated from humans to such a large extent that they are invisible. "Modern civilization" that comes to us from the west demands a complete isolation of pure human from non human in a completely artificial and ultimately not just unsustainable sense, but a nonsensical quest.

Why else would you have Indian American kids coming to India and wondering about so many visible animals? I mean what species of earthly being would wonder about the presence of other species of animals in the environment. Guess who is being silly here?


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 07:53 
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South Korea had a lower per capita income than India in 1947. China had a lower per capita income than India in 1962. Now compare them to India. How long can you blame others for India's problems? Decades of 2-3% population growth and similar economic growth= stagnation from an already abysmal base. Has any other nation on Earth instituted a system whereby job/prosperity generating businesses have to prostrate themselves before (and bribe) dhoti wearing dolts just to expand their business? My hatred for Indira Gandhi and her parasitic family greatly out weighs my hatred for the UQ ( and I despise the UQ).


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:00 
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Well one of the logics given to justify the separation is that it reduces the public health risks of diseases jumping from the wild population of animals into humans. But all that trouble did not prevent foot-and-mouth in UK. The HIV has spread from human to human rather than from rats and dogs [the hypo of jumping from Chimpanzee to a single African and thence to the unspoilt fair-skinned gift of gods has not been conclusively proved yet].

Those jumps seem to happen more in eating the affected animal. Merely them being around might be risky - but not as risky perhaps. But then rats or mice are in a class altogether different. Rats plague UKstan - I myself am a witness. You can look up the number of professional farms offering and doing brisk biz in "pest control".

Rabies by the way can come from rats too - as some were most concerned at rabies from dogs. Look up the epidemiology of rabies.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:03 
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Tejasji,
The trajectory of the nation was rigged such that the movers and shakers in the country to be kakistocrats. That has continued for more number of years while perpetuating kakistocracy. It is not easy to dislodge such entrenched interests in a span of couple of generations. Quick results can be obtained only in revolutionary style corrective steps. But then again, easy come easy go. That will be fate of most revolutionary style corrections. India has to find corrective steps through evolutionary route. It is long, painful and many times few steps backward for every step forward. But it is better not to loose hope.
The supporters of the kakistocracy such as brits are working to dislodge that all important hope and self-confidence. One has to guard against such attack of hope and optimism. Hence have to call out brits when they try punching above their weight.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:07 
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tejas ji,
the discussion was not really centred on development and its causes or obstacles - it was about what development means for different people. For some getting our city streets free of cows and dogs seem to be a high mark of development. Freeing our habitats of unwanted animals - unwanted as listed by the UKstan perhaps as reflected in documetaries prepared from their gratuitous ends - could be a criterion. But all people like me have been asking is that
(1) why should we have to accept others' definition of civilization
(2) even if we do, why do we have to take it from people who do not similarly expose/reveal or criticize themselves
(3) even if we want to follow their dictats - we need resources to do all this, and it will take time - all the more so because of the enormous drain of capital, finance and human that had taken place over centuries - and a substantial part of that looting happened at these very same civilization-imposers.
(4) I am not sure Korea or China can be a good example. These guys were not really sucked dry of capital and resources through colonization to the extent the Brits did India. For them at their starting point, it was merely a case of technological progress and judicious investment.

As to why a certain dynasty should be held responsible for lack of growth - is going to go OT.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:27 
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brihaspati wrote:
Charlie wrote:
This discussion is going like a Paki style response to criticism. Cant believe we are searching every nook and corner of Britland for Stray dogs and rats. BBC/ Brits might be second only to Pakis in hating India and doing everything to show India in bad light but we cannot deny our pathetic attitude towards hygiene, Order etc. Rationalizing the existence of stray dogs and cows will only give temporary relief but the problem wont go away. And also we cannot ignore the fact that most here have settled in west only to avoid all these problems.


Really?!!!!
No one has denied the fact of stray dogs and cows in India. But why does it hit so hard on certain chords to see the fact of even Brit land being subject to rats and stray dogs or foxes - being exposed and pointed out? By the way you dont need to visit every nook and cranny to see strays. Or do you mind if people really looked up?

Isnt it rather strange to denounce Indians for supposedly reacting to dog-cow exposes in India - and then reacting similarly to feral animal exposes in Britland?

By the way, is it so important to prove one's desperation to distance oneself from India - by copying the arrogance of the British in stereotyping other cultures and declare that "most" Indians have settled in west only to "avoid" all these publicly roaming cow/dog problems? I can understand the Brit mindset - for moving over to other people's lands - because when they first started eyeing up lands like India - their own cities were rat and dog and sewerage infested. They might have started intriguing and colonizing out of that hatred of their own free-wheeling animals and open gutters and plagues. But why extend that motivation to most "Indians"!


These kind of Brit reports are all too common in the propaganda world. Why do we need to spend so much time on the motivations of these reports especially on an informed site like BRF. This is only falling for their bait. If we Indians had a vision we would be doing the same thing to Brits to keep them in check.

And coming back to roads and animals, there is not even a single square mile in India where things are organized and are run in the way they should be. Cows are supposed to be in their enclosures and not on roads. It is a false argument that we are being PETA by allowing cows to roam on roads. What we need to stress about is why we dont have proper roads, civic sense, town planning etc. I just want to travel from Point A to Point B efficiently for my day to day business. This is not being influenced by western definition of being civilized.

As we all might know here India will loose about 200 billion dollars or about approx 10% of GDP in 2017 due to bad infrastructure and I am not even including corruption or decision paralysis of the rulers.Thats millions of more people living in poverty and going to bed hungry. We cannot afford that.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:39 
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brihaspati wrote:
Well one of the logics given to justify the separation is that it reduces the public health risks of diseases jumping from the wild population of animals into humans. But all that trouble did not prevent foot-and-mouth in UK. The HIV has spread from human to human rather than from rats and dogs [the hypo of jumping from Chimpanzee to a single African and thence to the unspoilt fair-skinned gift of gods has not been conclusively proved yet].

Those jumps seem to happen more in eating the affected animal. Merely them being around might be risky - but not as risky perhaps. But then rats or mice are in a class altogether different. Rats plague UKstan - I myself am a witness. You can look up the number of professional farms offering and doing brisk biz in "pest control".

Rabies by the way can come from rats too - as some were most concerned at rabies from dogs. Look up the epidemiology of rabies.


Brihaspati it is a mixed blessing that has been taken to absurd lengths, but in my mind the topic is a subset of a larger philosophical issue and will put up my thoughts in the inadequacy thread under burqa.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:41 
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If it is animal love then keeping cows in a shelter, feeding and controlling their population suitable for our needs and resources would be humane instead of letting them free to scavenge city streets for food.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 08:46 
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Charlie wrote:
If it is animal love then keeping cows in a shelter, feeding and controlling their population suitable for our needs and resources would be humane instead of letting them free to scavenge city streets for food.


Naipaul interviewed an Islamist in Indonesia who said of a tied goat. See that goat? It is content. It gets food and security. Why does it need freedom to wander and perhaps be attacked by predators? Islam ties you and gives you security. Why do you need freedom and the uncertainty that comes with freedom?


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 09:02 
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Shiv Sir, if I am in a medical emergency, i would prefer to be taken to hospital on a western road rather than on an Indian road. Also, one of my friend lost 5 of his relatives in a road accident recently. The SUV was trying to avoid a dog on one of the brand new national highways in South India.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 09:12 
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Quote:
As we all might know here India will loose about 200 billion dollars or about approx 10% of GDP in 2017 due to bad infrastructure and I am not even including corruption or decision paralysis of the rulers.Thats millions of more people living in poverty and going to bed hungry. We cannot afford that.


Is this point related to the presence of cows on streets?


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 10:10 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
Quote:
As we all might know here India will loose about 200 billion dollars or about approx 10% of GDP in 2017 due to bad infrastructure and I am not even including corruption or decision paralysis of the rulers.Thats millions of more people living in poverty and going to bed hungry. We cannot afford that.


Is this point related to the presence of cows on streets?


My larger argument was regarding the lackadaisical attitude towards hygiene and infrastructure which includes Cows (moving speed breakers)


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 10:16 
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You should have written that explicitly.

This planet also belongs to cows and dogs. I don't know what people mean when they write "our cities". We already use/exploit animals for all kinds of purposes. Confining them to a small cell would be inhuman.

And how often do people die because a cow/dog blocked their path? Using low-probability events in arguments is lahori logic.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 10:38 
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The obvious experience to understand Indian hypocrisy is to see Indians "behaving" like good citizens in foreign lands,when they know that their backsides will be tanned for law-breaking,while at home,they couldn't care less for the next man on the street,as they know that cash,influence or caste/community can see them "get off" offences even upto murder! Can you see an Indian expat urinating in public abroad,while he will do so with gusto when back home? Just watch the number of two-wheelers in your metro as I do,drive the wrong way in a one-way street,unwilling to go around.We have little discipline whatsoever and break or bend every rule made,which is why we are in the sh*thouse ,with himalayan corruption,a govt. that obfuscates with fossilised minds,an economy that staggers on somehow because of the backbreaking hard work of the peasants in keeping Indians self-sufficient in food and our internal market of a billion+ and growing too,thanks to the nightly activities off lusty Indians!

Ask an ordinary Indian whether he would like to live or study in the UK/Europe or in India ? No prizes for guessing the answer .Then ask him why he wants to go there.He will also tell you that apart from his career needs,"it is so clean there yaar,not like in India no?" Even in the depressed economies of the west,the basic rule of law is maintained to keep day-to-day life in order and prevent anarchy.If anyone has in recent times tried to interact with govt. functionaries ,the police,the BMC whatever,Naipaul's a "million mutinies now",has been a truly prophetic statement.The previous generation of "freedom fighters" is almost extinct,barring Anna H and his ilk,my generation is fast on its way out and the dear Lord help the next!

PS:Neela,your pomposity speak for itself! You are the perfect example of the "outraged Indian",who whines, rants and rails at the firang while absolving the worst atrocities of our own kind.Make a film about the British or Europeans as revenge if you feel so outraged.My method is NOT to give the likes of Clarkson and co. the "oxygen of publicity",which makes them even more important and controversial.By all means let the HC protest,(where have I objected to such official protests if TG has broken Indian laws,rules,etc?),but let us also remember our own flaws of character as I have noted.Our nation has a hell of a lot of spring cleaning to take place from the top downwards,and to ignore our own flaws and misdemeanours is to be absolutely hypocritical.I have never claimed "messiah" status,your personal jibes only point to your own pettiness and lack of etiquette,please go to a finishing school and learn some manners.

Let the bumptiousness,boorishness and buffoonery of Clarkson and ignoramuses like him be enjoyed by us ,sippping a drink,safe in our knowledge of our own intellectual superiority,without forgetting our own flaws.The Indian Empire is on the march.After all,who owns JLR these days,or Corus,not to mention one L.MIttal? One day perhaps,Britain will be the jewel in India's crown.


Last edited by Philip on 15 Jan 2012 10:58, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 10:46 
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Charlie wrote:
Shiv Sir, if I am in a medical emergency, i would prefer to be taken to hospital on a western road rather than on an Indian road. Also, one of my friend lost 5 of his relatives in a road accident recently. The SUV was trying to avoid a dog on one of the brand new national highways in South India.



Charlie I am going to stop posting counter arguments. It is very easy to counter this and I have one ready-made for this particular argument - but I am not trying to prove that your viewpoint is wrong. All I am trying to say is that the viewpoint you espouse as being correct does not mean the Indian viewpoint is wrong. It is different. That's all. You may not like it, but it exists and is perfectly valid.. I will take my thoughts to another thread to because it is OT here.

I had better do that soon because I am now barking and not biting :)


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 11:33 
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Philip wrote:
The obvious experience to understand Indian hypocrisy is to see Indians "behaving" like good citizens in foreign lands,when they know that their backsides will be tanned for law-breaking,while at home,they couldn't care less for the next man on the street,as they know that cash,influence or caste/community can see them "get off" offences even upto murder! Can you see an Indian expat urinating in public abroad,while he will do so with gusto when back home? Just watch the number of two-wheelers in your metro as I do,drive the wrong way in a one-way street,unwilling to go around.We have little discipline whatsoever and break or bend every rule made,which is why we are in the sh*thouse ,with himalayan corruption,a govt. that obfuscates with fossilised minds,an economy that staggers on somehow because of the backbreaking hard work of the peasants in keeping Indians self-sufficient in food and our internal market of a billion+ and growing too,thanks to the nightly activities off lusty Indians!



Well what you say is true of large section of India.We are offended when someone from White World points it out. We can also point out filth and crime and what not in the so called developed world That would not solve our problems. When we see filth or substandard performance , as Indians, we didn't feel compelled to set things right in old days.New generation is changing as lakhs of young people(due to IT revolution) have been exposed to better standards and feel the need to adopt it here.

Recently, some Foreign students visited Kerala and also met Maharaja of Travancore. They are on study tour and would be visiting many parts of the country. It came in newspaper. One of the student , while being all praise, commented on trash being found everywhere. That is a sad reality.

But I am sure India is slowly changing and as more and more people are exposed to high standards, they would demand and also do follow those standards. There is no point in whining about the present state but got to work to improve it. And I see we have made a lot of progress, slow and steady, but nonetheless progress it is. And that needs to be acknowledged.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2012 11:35 
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brihaspati wrote:

One of the problems with "city dwellers" of modern India is that they perhaps begin to fall victim to their own propaganda - that somehow they have climbed up from the low, low existence out there in the dirty villages and rural towns - and just by being in the city - now belong to an elevated existence completely disjunct from the greater Indian existence. The model is the picture postcard and hollywood or Pathe versions of US or British life. Hence we need to have the city dog-free, cow-free, slum-free, chota-log free - because those things do not appear in BBC pics of Londonistan.


Sorry, I don't buy that.
City dwellers don't expect to live alongside free-roaming animals. That's why it is called a 'city', not a 'village' (an indian village to be specific), a zoo, or an animal farm.
It has nothing to do with Indian culture.

There has to be separation between animals and humans in non-agricultural urban settlements.
It is logical to expect that you won't have to steer around a cow or dog blocking and causing a traffic jam on MG road simply because cows/dogs have absolutely no business being on a city main road.
None.
It is abnormal behavior for a grazing animal to naturally live in a location where there is only asphalt, and zero grass.
Just as it is illogical for a human to go sleep in a wild monkey colony or in a den of wolves.

To reiterate, it is for the animals' own benefit as well as for the humans.

Oh, US and Oiropean cities may have problems with stray dogs (definitely they don't have cows or large animals roaming the downtown streets in large numbers) but I seriously doubt if it is as widespread as in Indian cities. I don't recall having seen more than a stray or two in my 6 years in the US. I have seen only one in Singapore in the last 6 years.

That said, cities like New York are said to have large populations of strays, but do at least attempt to tackle the menace. It's been more than a decade since I've visited any Oiropean city 'properly', so I don't have first hand info, but I haven't heard from a single Indian traveler/resident in these cities that stray animals pose a big problem like in India. Not one.

Let me stick my neck out further and say, even if Londonistan/Zurich/DC have problems with strays, why should Indian city dwellers suffer too? Why is it that 'the goras have strays, so for Mumbai/B'lore too it is okay onlee'.

That said, not all western cities are all TFTA and clean and efficient. American cities in particular have many nasty areas..heck Baltimore and Detroit are major dumps. And these are portrayed fully as such in American movies. Same thing with the projects and slums in Chicago, LA, New Orleans etc. Detroit in particular is probably the single most dangerous and decayed major city I've ever visited. :-? I am sure you can find such cities in Oirope too, especially in the former Sov Block nations.

But we shouldn't benchmark with these cities which are vastly different from ours in most aspects. We need to look towards cities that have high population densities yet have managed their urban services/sanitation/infrastructure reasonably well. Eg. Tokyo, Singapore, Seoul, Hong Kong etc.



Quote:
I will address the "no control of the dog/cow problem" issue in more appropriate threads. But in this thread, just will say that you need to really visit and stay up in Londonistan as well as other well-known cities and navigate the backwaters of city-life before you denounce the Indian cities on canine/bovine issues. Dog poo litters most side streets - unless it is a real, real, upmarket area with lots of sensitive skins and noses.

Visit France - oh, do -please do! Parts of Italiy and Greece. Welcome to dog-poo streets.


Boss, in Indian cities, it is not only the animal-poo that is a problem.
It is deadly combination of open drains/sewers, lack of proper sidewalks, dangerous mixing of pedestrian + vehicular traffic, tons of garbage and rubble (like piles of *%$ing stones that lie unmoved for months), incomplete and unlabeled dangerous infrastructural work sites, exposed overhead electrical wires, insane chaotic and unruly traffic, massive pollution, free-roaming animals, animal pool, and huge overcrowding that causes such misery. It is this attack on multiple fronts that raises the 'problem' by a few orders of magnitude from 'dog-poo' on oiropean sidewalks to 'major PITA on all fronts'.

Theoretical == with problems in oiropean cities may make one feel good, but the ground reality between the two cases is vastly different.


Quote:
As I pointed out - the real objection was not about showing this. It was about not showing similar stuff that happens right under BBC's nose and much closer to home in Europe. WE DONT SEE SIMILAR FULL HD VIDEOS FOR THESE HOME OR CLOSE TO HOME TURF FROM THESE SELFDEPRECATORS.


Oh, the BBC are paki-style two-faced scum, there is no doubt about that.
And they will never openly portray themselves in a bad light compared to the 'thurrdworlders'; the reasons are well known to peearreff denizens. You're preaching to the choir here.
As already said, I don't think that Top gear episode was offensive, but even so, if someone wants to use it as a reason to get these clowns banned permanently from india, I am 399% in support onlee. So we are all on the same page here.

But let the urban problems discussion be not directly linked to it, since it seems to have taken a life of its own. I think we'll also need to move off this thread since its going OT.


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