Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

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ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

I posted this in 2011

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1213910

SSridhar,
Earlier I had suggested we study the collapse of FSU as a model for TSP. One key factor was the flight of capital from FSU to West safe havens especially Germany. For TSP there is no such safe haven in West as it could be frozen by the US led West. In India the funds can be kept safe from (mis) appropriation.

So that money transfer to India is a conduit for the RAPE and TTP to transfer the funds before/at the right time. (Wahabandi Coup).

So key factors are getting placed.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1184426


RajeshA, Thanks for the parallels. More detailed than what I thought.

But here are a few of my own:
- Both are agglomerations of multi-ethnic groups (Russia: Russians, Ukranians, Central Asians etc; Pakistan: Pakjabis, Sindhis, Baloch and others)
- Both had productive core (Russia: Pakjab) and unproductive periphery (CIS: Pashtunwa etc.)
- Both had dominant ethnic group (Russians:Pakjabis) embrace an ideology (Communism:Islam) for preservation
- Both saw/are seeing the ideology is not serving them
- Both are nuke powers with clown jewels dispersed

Key to FSU unraveling was the Red Army stayed in barracks when the old timers launched a coup to halt the 'decline'. FSU case the cabal didn't go along with the prestroika reforms of Gorby. In TSP case it could be something else that they hold dear.

Analogous condition would be if some old time TSPA cabal launches a coup to restore TSP glory and the rest of them stay in barracks either due to US inducements or self realization that their instituion's key role is to defend their country and not be part of the problem.

A leader (Yeltsin) of the dominant ethnic group led a people's protest. Recall he was part of the establishment earlier. Similarly if a Pakjab national leader who has some following protests against the cabal.

Some deal similar to Russia to keep the nukes for their safety and or prestige where in Pakjab brings back the maal and ensures the safety. Massa wants to remove them if such a thing happens.

A kelptocratic elite (RAPE) that siphons off the funds abroad to safe havens (Swiss banks, Londonium etc.) And bring it back as investments!

Russian mafia analog is TSP Dawood type gangs. Are there any such gangs in TSP?

What am I thinking!
On further thinking the RAPE is the equivalentof Russian Mafia. DI is a two bit/cowrie Indian crook.
and good morning allah or subhanallah!

Things are moving as bhagwan oops arrah wants it.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Edward Luttwak:
....
Q: Wouldn’t Osama Bin Laden be a source of useful intelligence? Alternately, one good reason to kill him is that you have a deal with the Pakistanis—“we’re gonna get rid of this problem”—then you need to kill him, because otherwise he might start talking about who protected him for the past 10 years.

EL:There was no deal with the Pakistanis. There’s no institutional integrity. Therefore you cannot make deals with the Pakistani system. They would betray each other. There was no deal.

MMS should have understood this and not sold out at Shameless Sheikh
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by partha »

x-post from TSP
In response to KPK govt banning Malala's book launch at Peshawar University -

Image

This is interesting. Inter provincial fault lines. There was also a report about PPP getting close to Sindhi nationalists which has pissed off MQM. How do we exploit these fault lines? If we are already doing it then how do we do it even better. Ideas please.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Manish_Sharma »

ramana wrote:

But even in those years there were latent, but unmistakable, inter-communal tensions which occasionally surfaced in the form of “biases and misperceptions of many kinds” between Hindus and Muslims. “A most hateful bias,” Dhillon recollects, “was not to partake of cooked food at Muslim households, even when they belonged to close friends... It must be said to the credit of our Muslim friends that they continued to send uncooked food to their non-Muslim friends’ houses on Eid. Such odious biases against them must have contributed in a major way to prompt Punjabi Muslims to press for Partition in 1947.” The firsthand account of the savagery that accompanied Independence has been written in a fair and unbiased style.[/b]

This not partaking food is an ancient and world wide custom.

Herdotus writes in his Histories about how Egyptians do not partake of any Greek food or custom as their way of showing identity. He has a whole paragraph on that.
Exactly, he forgets that muslims also never eat meat at sikh and hindu friend's homes as its not halaal but jhatka.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Brad Goodman »

Indian DTH services go 'direct' to Pakistan, payments made through hawala; illegal connections multiply
MUMBAI: Hasan Kazmi can't do without his weekday fix of Mahabharat and Devon Ke Dev... Mahadev. He avidly watches the television serials on his Videocon direct-to-home (DTH) connection.

Nothing odd about this, except that Kazmi is based in Karachi and is using a set-top box he bought on the black market. For Pakistani viewers hooked on Indian TV, an entire ecosystem has evolved to help foster the habit
Whats going on la ilaha illalah not enough for momeens? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

X-Posting from Mil Forum:
tsarkar wrote:Preceding World War 2, the German Army built a false myth that the German political leadership surrendered in WW1, the Army was capable of fighting & was winning. The truth was the German Army had collapsed. The myth of German Invincibility was a major factor in inciting WW2.

Same for Pakistan. The myth that Mushy is propogating that PA was winning, and political leadership sold him, is dangerous. In 1965, Pakistan could not sustain a longer war. In 1971, Pakistan lost huge swathes of territory in the Western Sector, yet some of them still lie that they won the war in the West.

The myth of PA invincibility needs to be quashed as early as possible, since it encourages adventurism. Jokers like Mushy spin defeat into victory.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

SS and other Pak watchers,

IDSA published in 2010 a report on TSP.

Whither Pakistan? ~10MB pdf.

There is pdf without maps which is <1MB.

For reading on smart phone!

its a collection of essays that look like thread titles in BRF!!!
About the Report
Pakistan has invariably evoked a great deal of interest among India’s strategic affairs community. Because of historical, geographical, economic and cultural linkages, developments in the neighbourhood have important implications for India’s politics, economy and security. This is especially true in the case of Pakistan. Recent developments in Pakistan have been a cause of concern for all the countries concerned about its future. Given the need for better understanding of developments in Pakistan, IDSA launched its Pakistan Project in the year 2009. The project team began its work in March 2009 and has been meeting regularly to discuss various developments in Pakistan. This is the first report produced by the team and it was reviewed by a panel of experts in January 2010 and finalized with their inputs and suggestions.

The basic argument that flows from the report is that Pakistan is likely to remain unstable because of inherent weaknesses in its political, economic and security policies. The absence of any long-term shared vision of Pakistan, the over-securitization of the state apparatus because of its obsession with India as a threat and an enemy, and the state’s ambivalence towards the phenomenon of Islamic radicalism will keep Pakistan in a state of chronic turmoil. The report suggests a set of policy alternatives for India to deal with the consequences of an unstable Pakistan, on a long term basis.

Contents
FOREWORD
LIST OF ABBREVIATIONS
PREFACE

CHAPTER I
Politics in Pakistan: A Discordant Quartet

CHAPTER II
Provinces of Pakistan: Politics, Militancy and Ethnic Nationalism

CHAPTER III
Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Travails of Uncertainty

CHAPTER IV
From Islamisation to Talibanisation: Possible Lebanonisation?

CHAPTER V
The Economy of Pakistan: Structural Weaknesses

CHAPTER VI
Civil-Military Relations: Army as the Final Arbiter

CHAPTER VII
Pakistan’s Counter-insurgency Campaign: An Assessment

CHAPTER VIII
Pakistan’s Nuclear & Missile Programmes: On a Short Fuse?

CHAPTER IX
Pakistan’s Relations with India: The Unending Quest for Parity

CHAPTER X
Pakistan 2020: Possible Scenarios and Options

CHAPTER XI
Dealing with An Unstable Pakistan: India’s Options

APPENDICES
Appendix I
Profiles of Some Terror Groups Operating in Pakistan
Appendix II
The Image of Pakistan in Media
Appendix III
Economic Indicators of Pakistan
Please do read and critique it here.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Second Book 2012:

Pakistan on Edge
Link to pdf and description.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Agnimitra »

Iqbal’s Muslim Superman
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, though considered an advocate of women’s education in present-day Pakistan, was of the view that women should not be taught “geography” as they are not active in public spaces in any capacity (economic, political or social) in a non-familial way. The emphasis was on containment of women to the more traditional roles of mothers, wives and daughters.

The other writer whose writing Saigol deconstructs is Deputy Nazeer Ahmed. His novel Mirat-ul-Uroos is considered a guide on “how to be a good Muslim woman” for over a century and if its status in Pakistani pop culture is any indication (it gets remade every few years in a television serial and is part of secondary school curriculums), it remains extremely relevant. Saigol states that unlike Syed Ahmed Khan, Nazeer Ahmed believed that women should be taught secular subjects, because a well-rounded education makes them outstanding mothers and good administrators who run their homes smoothly. But he too believed in keeping Muslim women away from the public sphere. His book states many times that a good Muslim woman must never consider herself equal to a man.

Saigol concludes this section by discussing Muslim manhood, as imagined by Akbar Allahabadi and Allama Iqbal. Both consider Muslim nationalism rooted in past glories, machismo and conquest. Akbar Allahabadi blamed all the social and economic evils on women shunning purdah and entering public spaces, and linked nationalism with controlling women’s mobility.

Just like Allahabadi, Allama Iqbal’s poetry also glorifies the distant past of Muslim colonialism. For him, the idea of nationalism was rooted in the exploits of “mard-e-momin” — a Muslim man, or a Muslim Superman as Saigol likes to call him — of the past who conquered lands and had control over women’s sexuality. With British colonisation of South Asia, that masculinity was lost and could only be regained by reviving the glory of past Muslims; rediscovering faith and regaining control over sections of society that are not mard-e-momin, i.e. women and children. Saigol firmly believes that these ideas of masculinity and femininity espoused in the poetry of Iqbal and Allahabadi have greatly impacted the gendered consciousness of Pakistan.
But if The Pakistan Project should be admired for just one reason, in my opinion it would be coining the term “Iqbal’s Muslim Superman.”
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Xpost for TSP thread...
jrjrao wrote:Hey folks:

Greetings to the ol’ timers!! I have not been away totally, and have in fact been lurking of late, lately especially.

In the past, I have dished out my fair bit of very fair criticism aimed at Dr. Unfair, i.e., Prof. Christine Fair.

But this time, she just has gotten a new book of hers released a couple days ago. This is available right now on Amazon Kindle (and also on Google Play Books), and will be available in print on May 26.

The book is titled:
“Fighting to the End: The Pakistan Army’s Way of Way”
by
C. Christine Fair.

Find it for ebook download on Amazon for $19.63 and Google Play Books for $15.33 (I bet these prices are customized for me, based on my browsing habits, and will be different for you in the US or elsewhere).

I am posting here to say that I have read this ebook already, and it is an excellent, excellent, read.

As I said above, I have found Dr. Fair quarrelsomely unfair on a few issues in the past (such as her oft-stated — but without any evidence other than an “it must be so” belief — statement that India and the RAW is surreptitiously messing in Baluchistan), but this new book dissects the TSP unlike any prior book on TSP by a US based scholar. I found it way more incisive and illuminating, as compared to the TSP tomes written by our beloved Prof. Uneven Cohen.

At the end of this wonderfully researched book, Dr. Fair reaches (and emphasizes throughout the book ) the following conclusions:

(1) The TSP army owns the TSP, and that this TSP army can, continuously, ad infinitum, define and claim victory over Hindu India simply on the basis that it has not been overrun by India, and that it has stood up thus far to the big and hegemonic India, despite provoking and challenging this India numerously. And that it has thus successfully thwarted the Hindu India’s growth and “hegemony” (no matter having received however many physical beatings in however many prior wars)

Which means that:

(2) Quote: “Even after the 1971 war, Pakistan did not view itself as defeated; rather it saw itself as emerging from the wreckage still capable of challenging of India. In the army’s view, Pakistan will be defeated only when it can no longer actively work to deny India’s claims — on Kashmir specifically and on regional ascendancy in general. This is a startling realization, prompting us to ask what sort of defeat it would take for Pakistan to relinquish its revisionism? Would the world stand by as such a defeat was meted out to Pakistan, given the numerous risks for asymmetric retaliation as well as nuclear proliferation? As I discussed in Chapter 10, this is simply an unreasonably expectation.”

which leads Dr. Fair to say:

(3)Quote: “This suggests that the US and others should stop attempting to transform the Pakistan Army, or Pakistan for that matter. It is unlikely that the United States can offer Pakistan any incentive that would be so valuable to Pakistan…(that would make TSP and the TSP army fix itself)”.

In fact, given this long standing TSP disposition, Dr. Fair states that any concession or appeasement to TSP “is in fact the more dangerous course of policy prescription. This is exactly the conclusion that I hope readers will draw from my work here….”

And (sadly) in the end, what this means to India is that it will continue to face this f!cked up dangerous menace for ever:

(4)Quote: “This suggests that those who are interested in Pakistan and its destabilizing impact on regional and international security must adopt an attitude of sober realism about the possible futures for Pakistan and the region it threatens. In the absence of evidence that any existing approach can persuade Pakistan to abandon its most dangerous policies, it is time to accept the likely fact that Pakistan will continue to pursue policies that undermined American interests in the region. For India, the implications of this conclusion are stark: the Pakistan Army will continue to seek to weaken India by any means possible, even though such means are inherently risky. In the army’s eyes, any other course would spell true defeat (to India).”

I am figuring that after this book, Dr. Fair is unlikely to get a visa to visit TSP any time soon, and if she indeed does get a visa, then for her own safety and well being, she should avoid visiting the TSP.

I would love to have Dr. Shiv offer his take on this new book…..
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Raja Ram wrote:jrjrao,

Interesting post. What then lies in India's interest? For those who are familiar with my old rambles, I had concluded that the dispelling of two myths on which Pakistan's survival is being sold to India is the only answer. I do not want to do the old beaten record once again - except to remind the gentle rakshaks here of those myths

1. A stable, peaceful Pakistan is in India's Interest
2. There is no alternative but to talk and resolve issues with Pakistan - we cannot gepgraphy

These two are at the essence of arguments being touted by the 3.5 benefactors of Pakistani "state". There has been a continuous drilling of these myths in India and there are many even in the strategic community that has bought into these myths - if not fully but substantially.

The lost decade due to a policy of drift followed by the GoI has failed to capitalise on the window of opportunity that is available as Pakistan descends to its logical conclusion - implosion. However, it is interesting to note that as long as the benefactors are around, it will be like some algebraic progression - Pakistan will forever tend towards implosion but never implode.

This article that you have referred here is probably the first time that someone from the US strategic community has officially recognised the facts on the ground - The PA owns the state of Pakistan and as long as the artificial rentier entity passing of a state survives, the PA will be relevant to the benefactors. By doing their bidding, primarily against India, they are useful to them.

It is therefore up to India to see through the myths, prepare a game plan and execute it so that the PA is defeated. It could be through a combination of economic, political and military (overt and covert, conventional and non-conventional) measures. What are these steps? how can it be done? etc are probably a topic for a different thread.

We have to break shackles that are there in the mind first for anything to happen. I am sure that there are people in GoI who clearly have a view on these myths and what needs to be done. I hope that in the coming days the new dispensation, whatever party(ies), will provide the necessary leadership in breaking free from these imposed shackles in our minds.

Just a ramble, for what it is worth.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

svinayak wrote:
jrjrao wrote:
(1) The TSP army owns the TSP, and that this TSP army can, continuously, ad infinitum, define and claim victory over Hindu India simply on the basis that it has not been overrun by India, and that it has stood up thus far to the big and hegemonic India, despite provoking and challenging this India numerously. And that it has thus successfully thwarted the Hindu India’s growth and “hegemony” (no matter having received however many physical beatings in however many prior wars)


(2) Quote: “Even after the 1971 war, Pakistan did not view itself as defeated; rather it saw itself as emerging from the wreckage still capable of challenging of India. In the army’s view, Pakistan will be defeated only when it can no longer actively work to deny India’s claims — on Kashmir specifically and on regional ascendancy in general. This is a startling realization, prompting us to ask what sort of defeat it would take for Pakistan to relinquish its revisionism? Would the world stand by as such a defeat was meted out to Pakistan, given the numerous risks for asymmetric retaliation as well as nuclear proliferation? As I discussed in Chapter 10, this is simply an unreasonably expectation.”

(3)Quote: “This suggests that the US and others should stop attempting to transform the Pakistan Army, or Pakistan for that matter. It is unlikely that the United States can offer Pakistan any incentive that would be so valuable to Pakistan…(that would make TSP and the TSP army fix itself)”.
THis is trying to create an image of the TSP army
Unkil will always try to create a fake image out of nothing. PRC is another example of this

By these kind of analysis they are trying to justify and build up a failed country.
THis attitude of the TSP PA is a defeatist.

THey just opposed the rise of India when India has doubled its population in the last 40 years. THey were helped by unkil and PRC and for this they get a reward

With global media showing a Indian culture these guys watched Indians world wide and opposed the Indians in every forum. It was Indians who gave too much attention to Pak instead of doubling Indian economy

Large Indian economy is a cure for this
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Paul wrote:Welcome back JrJr, still remember your witty and stomach splitting posts in the aftermath of 9/11.

Mean Khaled Ahmed has a regular feature in IE, the only reason to visit that obscene rag.

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... sports/99/
In an increasingly Talibanised Pakistan, ‘liberal-fascists’ are being attacked for not falling in line.
After his visit to Lahore in February, K. Anis Ahmed, a Bangladeshi intellectual, wrote in Newsweek Pakistan about the tough Pakistani textbook narrative against the birth of Bangladesh and the refusal of Pakistanis to even acknowledge what the Pakistan army had done to the people of East Pakistan in 1971: “Bangladeshi intellectuals have long known and appreciated the opposition mounted by Pakistani liberals during 1971.
What was interesting for me to discover on this trip is the abiding hold of that liberalism across generations. As a narrative of extremism has come to dominate global perceptions of Pakistan, the fact that there is a durable, indigenous tradition of liberalism has fallen by the wayside.
“In my university days, I regularly came across Pakistanis who, liberal on most counts, simply could not square the globally mainstream narrative about 1971 with their sense of identity. Education in the world’s best colleges, or living in the most cosmopolitan capitals, was not enough to open up the space that was required to question received narratives. But in Lahore I came across many young people from local colleges who did precisely that with ease.
“Is this tiny but deep strain of liberalism any match for the more ferocious ideologies that seek to crush it? I know too little about Pakistan to make any pronouncements let alone predictions. I can only say that an encounter with this country that I had long resisted proved to be more full of surprises, and pleasanter ones, than I had expected.”
The Lahore Literary Festival is a rare annual gathering of the “liberals” in a notoriously conservative city. On Facebook, however, Ahmed’s article received the typical barrage of “India-did-it” kind of response from Pakistani readers, accusing East Pakistanis of betrayal of their state.
The “liberal” in Pakistan is under siege; he must fear for his life as the national consensus swings in favour of the Taliban. Judging from what the Urdu columnists write — mother tongues, alas, have become toxic in our day — they will all be lynched when the sharia is finally enforced. But the liberal is anathematised all over the world.
To be clear, let’s quote The Economist (February 5, 2009): “Barack Obama shuns the L-word. But his speeches brim with liberal ideas and ideals. What is it about the doctrine that dare not speak its name? Authors who defend liberalism must often struggle just to get the word out without facing incomprehension or abuse — even today. To the left, particularly in Europe, liberalism means the free-market dogma of clever simpletons who created the present financial mess. The American right’s complaint is quite different.
to help us personalise your reading experience.
Forget that Hamilton, Jefferson and Madison fathered liberalism in the United States. For nigh on 30 years conservative Republicans persuaded American voters that liberals were godless, amoral, tax-happy hypocrites.”
In Pakistan, the ideological state is in the process of becoming more hardline, and the liberal is the one who “rejects religion and is willing to work for the CIA to undermine his own country”. People who defend women’s rights and Pakistan’s beleaguered non-Muslims are identified as agents of America and India — and Israel, for good measure — and the subliminal message is: “there are liberal-fascists in our midst”.
Popular anthropologist-author Akbar Ahmed, whose book The Thistle and the Drone has made an impact in Pakistan, defines these “elitist” liberal-fascists thus: “There is also the failure of the elite to come to grips with the problems of Pakistan. Many of its members, like Pakistani liberal commentators, reflect ideas picked up from Washington or London think-tanks, such as the War on Terror. They simplify what is happening in Pakistan as an Islamic movement.
Their analysis is replete with words and concepts like jihadis, Islamists, and Salafis which explain little and add to the confusion. Not fully understanding the problem, like their Western colleagues, they are incapable of offering solutions.”
Is liberalism a creed? Liberalism is not an ideology; it is a moment of conscience, an attitude. You can find a liberal Muslim Leaguer, even a liberal cleric, but you can’t find a coherent group or a party calling itself liberal and then acting consistently on the basis of consensus.
A dog-in-the-manger liberal stymies planned revolutions, questions immaculate creeds, and advocates tolerance towards elements making the ideological state impure. He is often considered below contempt by revolutionaries who will not allow his doubt to challenge their certainties.
Is it right to place the extremist and the liberal in opposition to each other? The liberal at best can get pummelled from both sides of an extreme divide. He is despised for being what he is, a loser and a bit of a spoilsport, introducing shades of grey when the situation is Manichean. The latest development is the invention of an oxymoron as a label for him: liberal-fascist. Greatly put off by the liberal’s habit of speaking up for the underdog, the hard conservative has set him up as an extremist together with the terrorist.
According to a very popular Pakistani TV anchor, “Liberal-fascist is he who supports the US drone attacks on Pakistani territory, opposes the Islamic articles of the 1973 Constitution, supports Musharraf in his rule and is now supporting Zardari, and is in the habit of designating his opponents as friends of the Taliban.
The extremists and liberals are in the same category because they both don’t accept the Constitution of Pakistan. One lies after drinking wine, the other lies after saying Namaz.”
Let us first clear our mind about the categories we are talking about. Where does extremism spring from? If you take liberal uncertainty and doubt as your norm, then one can say it springs from certitude. In doubt, there is freedom to make concessions to those who think differently. Doubt here includes self-doubt, to allow for a measure of altruism. It is also from doubt that moderation emanates: the instinct to stand in the middle when everyone is taking sides and is getting ready to clash.
The conservative is surer of his thinking because it is connected to the known past; the liberal is less sure-footed because he wants to question the entrenched attitudes of the past. It is the ask-no-questions certitude that inclines us to punish those who don’t agree with us.
The liberal will appeal to us to consider his argument but will not threaten us if we reject him. The misapplied term “liberal-fascist” implies “power” that the liberal doesn’t wish to possess because he knows that his thinking is too individualistic for the formulation of a group capable of wielding the power to punish.
There is also the thesis of multiple identities within one person made popular by Amartya Sen, which should make a person generous and tolerant as opposed to a person with only a single identity on the basis of which he “includes” and “excludes”.
The Taliban are not Taliban for nothing: the Pakhtun have the most aggressive single identity as a group and will reject other identities most readily; and this rejection will usually be done through violence.
Anis Ahmed will always be embraced by the liberals of Pakistan recommending that Pakistan apologise to Bangladesh for the atrocities of 1971. But he is right; the liberal also faces accelerated obsolescence as the Taliban phenomenon looms.
The writer is consulting editor, ‘Newsweek Pakistan’
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Agnimitra wrote:
jrjrao wrote:And (sadly) in the end, what this means to India is that it will continue to face this f!cked up dangerous menace for ever:

(4)Quote: “This suggests that those who are interested in Pakistan and its destabilizing impact on regional and international security must adopt an attitude of sober realism about the possible futures for Pakistan and the region it threatens. In the absence of evidence that any existing approach can persuade Pakistan to abandon its most dangerous policies, it is time to accept the likely fact that Pakistan will continue to pursue policies that undermined American interests in the region. For India, the implications of this conclusion are stark: the Pakistan Army will continue to seek to weaken India by any means possible, even though such means are inherently risky. In the army’s eyes, any other course would spell true defeat (to India).”
I agree with svinayak. The conclusion is exactly what can be expected - that the world, and especially India, must give up the thought of doing anything about Pakistan. It is a menace that we must learn to live with, and instead of fighting it, one is better off ignoring, avoiding, circumventing, and sometimes succumbing to its demands.

Recently, I had an interesting exchange with Christine Fair on twitter. She was mourning the death of a foreign journalist friend in Pakistan in a TTP dhamaka. I posted a reply with condolences, and said that the US must acknowledge that it connived in Pak getting nukes - a fact that Dutch intel has said on record. I said that the US and India must work to de-nuke Pakistan. To this, she replied with a particularly b!itchy comment, replete with expletives. Perhaps she was in a bad mood that day. I responded firmly, with references to facts surrounding the US conniving in Pak's nuclearization. Interestingly, the very next day she went up and deleted her first tweet in that particular chain of conversation - so that those reading her own timeline would not see the conversation. It was clear to me that she is unwilling to talk about the US' role in the nuclearization of Pakistan, or of any pro-active efforts to de-nuke this qabila state.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

shiv wrote:
jrjrao wrote: For India, the implications of this conclusion are stark: the Pakistan Army will continue to seek to weaken India by any means possible, even though such means are inherently risky. In the army’s eyes, any other course would spell true defeat (to India).”
jrj - I am several books behind on my reading and this would have to take its place in the queue. I don't disagree with Fair here, but I have seen nothing about Pakistan that will change certain fundamental issues - namely the growth of population beyond the ability of the economy to keep up, the inability of the "state" including the army to "manage" and control the population in terms of education and development.

I believe that Pakistan has morphed from a more-or-less unitary state under control of the army into a number of sub states of which the army is only one. I also think that ins recent years - especially after Musharraf and the OBL capture fiasco - the Pakistani army, which really is the only force that should be able to control violence and bring order, if necessary by means of a military coup, is not longer strong enough to do that. The military are running their own agenda as Fair says, but there are multiple parallel agendas in Pakistan that are either being run by others (eg the Taliban) or are running themselves - like population growth.

I still do believe that lack of war with India is among the most debilitating problems that the Pakistan army faces. They could regain honour by means of a short war - but that is getting more and more dangerous. Oh yes they are well stocked in terms of weapons to fight India and India will not have a "cake walk" defeating them even in a short conflict - but India will have to plan to shame the Pakistani army with embarrassing defeats. India is capable of doing that currently - and that is a huge risk that would seriously affect the Paki army's popularity. But they could still come out bruised but with renewed honour and renewed credentials for fighting India. So I think India's best bet would be to act fearsome and threatening from a military viewpoint and act sweet and friendly from a diplomatic viewpoint. - that is be the liquid oxygen that does not allow the Pakis army to die or live.

The Pakistan army is needed by the US and Saudi and China - each for its own purposes. As always, enmity with India provides a convenient lever to manipulate the Paki army. The US will support Pakistan indirectly in a war with India (at least after the war) and the war emergency will allow the Paki army to crack down mercilessly on inconvenient rebels. So while Pakistan must be punished by local area retaliation, a wider war will only help the Pakistan army even in defeat. In the meantime Pakistan's economic status should be reduced in comparison with India to that of a poorly performing Indian state - which is all that Pakistan is in size and capability.

JMT
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Agnimitra wrote:abhijitm, LokeshC, Johann & shiv ji,

Teddy Roosevelt uvacha, "The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the state because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."

Bakistanis of great wealth also have an extra-peculiar obligation to their quasi-state, because the Bakistani quasi-state is a peculiar kind of state. It is first and last a foil state, created by certain Islamist and Anglo-Saxon interests. Its raisin dieter is to act as a pivot for trans-national levers to work against Eurasian players like India, Russia, Iran, China - AND to shift the center of gravity of the Ummah's political power out of the Middle Eastern Master Races Urheimat. Such a foil state must always preserve a certain liminal position w.r.t. statehood in order to have plausible deniability. It must entertain a certain amount of internal chaos in order to fulfill its raisin dieter - which is to host agents of external chaos.

The Bakistani elites only need to ensure that this internal chaos remains between certain threshold limits - neither too much nor too little. At this point of time, Bakistan wants to expand its domain to include Afghanistan, which means it must take over and inject Afghanistan with its special mix of new order and further chaos (continuous jihadi inquilab). Therefore, in anticipation of this, the levels of chaos within Bakistan have gone up. IF this generated chaos does not find its intended outlet to overwhelm Afghanistan, then it would burst the upper threshold within Bakistan's current domain, and would lead to a dwindling spiral. But if it can find an outlet in post-2014 Afghanistan and also Kashmir, Syria and elsewhere, then it is not a problem. The Bakistani liminal quasi-statehood will endure and its men of great wealth will be doing a good job of fulfilling their special obligations to it, under Saudi and Anglo-Saxon auspices.

In the meantime, both, the Saudis and Anglos are at special pains to explain to others, especially Indians, that this quasi-state cannot and must not be subjected to external pressures of shastra, shaastra and shuddhi (i.e., if they go counter to its raisin dieter), because it now has nukes, and we are in a brave new era.
Agnimitra wrote:Added to above post: "...to shift the center of gravity of the Ummah's political power out of the Middle Eastern Master Races Urheimat."

The way Islamist Bakis see their area's current situation is through the eyes of Islam's history - They see Bakistan as a latter-day shadow of Jahiliyyah Arabia at the time of the Prophet's advent. There, the two martial sets of tribes on Arabia's shoulders were also at war with one another, just like the Pakjabis and Pashtuns are today. Etc. Advent of the Mahdi must be round the corner. Mind you, even Baluchistan has been under a Mahdavi spell. So while Bakistan's disparate and warring tribes may not be really reverent towards a state machinery per se, they see themselves through a certain lens, and so their expectant cohesion amid centrifugal chaos must be appreciated from that psychological angle.
ramana wrote:Agnimitra,
Refer to Wilfrid Scawen Blunt" Future of Islam".
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Dilbu wrote:Allama Iqbal’s Mausoleum Closed for Citizens due to Security Threats
It was recently reported from Lahore that the 76th death ceremony of the national poet, Allama Iqbal, could not be held due to security threats received by the security forces.

Recently there have been several events where the security forces have received confirmed information regarding a certain incident, and a bomb blast has taken place. Therefore, in order to avoid the risk, the security forces decided to absolutely ban entry from the public site.

In fact, there were two other places where the security forces decided to impede and stated that the entry will be banned. These places included Quaid E Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah’s Mausoleum and Minar E Pakistan.


Sources claim that there have been impending threats by the terrorists regarding these few public places; however, no one currently knows as to who is forwarding these threats to the authorities.

I think TTP has no use for memorials and monuments for man-made leaders and will raze these just as bamian Buddha statues were blown up.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:I think TTP has no use for memorials and monuments for man-made leaders and will raze these just as bamian Buddha statues were blown up.
Or like how KSA razed many relics associated with Prophet Muhammad in Makkah and Madinah as far back as 1925 and continues to do so even today. The Wahhabi/Deobandis have no place for shrines, monuments, graves, statues, Photos, paintings etc.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Paul »

Husain Haqqani's Magnificent Delusions

Some day I would like to analyze why the Haqqanis and Ahmeds of Pakistan run circles around the Raja Mohans and the G Parthasarthis.

Even Haqqani is less awed by American grandeur than Indian commentators.

Added later: Only Dilip Hiro I think was in that league in the quality of his writings on central Asia.

I am not taken in by the TFTA ness of these people but would to know why after so many years a single diplomat has not been able to write a good book on Pakistan.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

You mean an Indian diplomat? He would be thrown out of the clique based on ganga-jamini tehzeeb.
If you want reality of TSP to emerge in Indian mind then first dismantle Congress.

Congress unspoken agreement with West is to allow TSP to survive and fester.
Has many blowback for West if TSP goes under.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Paul »

There is a strain of the Bal Gangadhar Tilak thinking still living in CongI that needs to be revived, however dormant it may be. We need a national party like Cong in India, however without the evil influence of the Gandhis to retain the balance. It has it's roots in every village and Taluk...lop off the mafia and work with the grassroots.

Ganga Jamuna Tehzeeb is the same as the so called Kashmiriyat thinking displayed by the deracinated KP community, a convenient fig leaf for the Islamists to gain demographic strength and then wipe out the Kaffirs.

On another note, read this article by this WKK, this idiot think it is matter of time before the civilians assert their complete supremarcy in Pakistan....to compound the idiocy, he is heading the Pakistan studies group in Jamia Millia Islamia.

No wonder Indian sources cannot come up with quality output on Pakistan...I wonder if it is because paradoxically Pakis are less in awe of the Anglos than their Indian counterparts and this leads to better output from them....or is it cuz Indian thinkers showing out of the box thinking are not given access to hallowed western institutions while Pakis are.....
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Agnimitra »

Paul wrote:No wonder Indian sources cannot come up with quality output on Pakistan...I wonder if it is because paradoxically Pakis are less in awe of the Anglos than their Indian counterparts and this leads to better output from them....or is it cuz Indian thinkers showing out of the box thinking are not given access to hallowed western institutions while Pakis are.....
One other reason Pakis are not so much in the thrall of Anglos as deracinated Indians is because Pakis have an alternative thralldom under the Middle Eastern Masters - Arab, Turki, Irani - to whom they can afford to feel closer, stand shoulder to shoulder and pray, etc. So since they have an alternative master and a more deluded servitude, it balances out their servility to the Anglos. Pakis will turn around and proudly say that some petrodollar qasbah in the Middle East is better than, say, a Western town. The Paki feels a proud ownership of anything 'Islamic', even if they themselves are from the gutter, or Mid-Eastern wealth was not earned but by accident (or earlier by plunder - often of India). Indians, on the other hand, are neither the proteges of the Anglos, nor are they the khansamahs of the Caliphate. So in lieu of self-confident and eager bondage, they display a pseudo-independent intellectual thralldom.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by SSridhar »

Paul wrote:Some day I would like to analyze why the Haqqanis and Ahmeds of Pakistan run circles around the Raja Mohans and the G Parthasarthis.
Paul, I do not know why you equated GP with Raja Mohan. His articles, comments and interviews do not lend any credence at all to such an equation, in fact, the opposite.
or is it cuz Indian thinkers showing out of the box thinking are not given access to hallowed western institutions while Pakis are.....
That's a good question. It is my belief that the Americans needed anti-Establishment analysts/commentators in Pakistan more than they needed in India. The Indians were reasonable and would accept a point of view if it were rational. The un-spectacular India-US relationship was consistent and even, rather than being tumultuous and prone to violent swings as it was in the Pakistan-US relationship. Then, there was also a need to explain away to the Pakistani people the various audacious joint operations that the Pakistan-US cabal mounted on various entities. There were no such compunctions in the case of India. Since our relationship was at a fairly low level and there never was a need for the US to have access to opinion builders in India. The American establishment therefore needed more levers and opinion makers in Pakistan than in the Indian context. This naturally led to deep and close relationship between the various government departments of the GotUS and influential sections of the Pakistani society. The US therefore tolerated those that went viral against themselves and also the Pakistani establishment because they were always useful when GoP or the PA went against American interests. From Wikileaks we know that the US attempted to foster a similar relationship in India from late 90s onwards after Pokhran II. But, the gamut of US involvement in Pakistan because of historical necessities is simply too massive for any such comparison between US and TSP vis-a-vis the US.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Paul »

I have a couple of books from G Parthasarthy, one of them co authored with Humayan Khan of Pakistan. While I do agree with you that he should not have been clubbed with Raja Mohan, but his book which covered the Brasstacks and the Zia era did not impress me by much.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by shiv »

Paul wrote: On another note, read this article by this WKK, this idiot think it is matter of time before the civilians assert their complete supremarcy in Pakistan....to compound the idiocy, he is heading the Pakistan studies group in Jamia Millia Islamia.
Please give me back the 5 minutes of my life I lost in reading this crap and the one year that my life has lost from the frustration of realizing that incompetent, ignorant, bumbling nincompoops whose knowledge of Pakistan is less than the value of fresh dog poop are in positions where their opinions get published.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by JE Menon »

And this was a Special Secretary to the Cabinet Secretariat... you know what that means!
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Anand K »

There's a number of articles from him on the accountability of security agencies, or lack thereof and the lack of parliamentary oversight on R&AW. Maybe not a regular spook - maybe a bean-counter mandarin, uncomfortable and wary of the military and spooks and the turbulent worlds they inhabit, but who has spent a good part of his career attached peripherally to the national security apparatus. Remember that rising Whitehall star mandarin in "the Deceiver", the one who tries to chase away the protagonist "as he is a liability in the new post Cold War world where Russians are our friends".... maybe like that? Truly desires Kumbaya, ideal for Track-II/III, Wazwan with Hurriyat, Tikkas with Talbot, chilled watermelon juice with the rare sane Pakis...... but a weak link if too integrated into the national security apparatus. I mean, there's a utility for guys fitting this profile but if they go overboard and dominant....
Last edited by Anand K on 23 Apr 2014 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by shiv »

JE Menon wrote:And this was a Special Secretary to the Cabinet Secretariat... you know what that means!
Now we know why none of these blithering bird brains could never write about Pakistan. It hurts to see such deep ignorance at the highest levels.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Paul »

SSridhar, I think our SDRE thinkers like Parthasarthi/JN Dixit/Shyam Saran who genuinely have something to add to the discourse will never be given access to the cocktail circuit by the west. We will never see their writings in B&N or Borders. WHat Haqqanis and Akbar Ahmed etc. bring to the table are valued for their input due to their proximity to the powder kegs in Af-Pak region. They also are connected to the saudi funded univ chairs in the west. IIRC Akbar Ahmed works on Saudi funds and helps whitewash Islam's dirty laundry for western audiences from a theological perspective.

Our reps are sellouts like Romila Thapars and Chatterjee. I suppose from Pak standpoint even Haqqani is a sellout like Raja Mohan is for us but cuz they have proximity to US interests they get better baksheesh.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by anmol »

x-posting from India-US thread.
----
Following article is from a retired US Foreign Service guy's blog [he have served in Pakistan/Sri Lanka and there are many wikileak cables on him, google: "site:wikileaks.org Lewis Amselem"].

I think he is responding to the NYT report, and questions on the "wrong war".... The article should be only about Pakistan... but starts with India, how India never really existed, its elites, Nehru, Indira. etc.

He doesn't really say it, but it is clear that from US POV defeat of Germany, Japan, Iraq unleashed Russia China and Iran. Soooo "wrong war" because the "right war" will open up opportunities for India.

Wednesday, April 23, 2014
On Pakistan: A Rerun with an Update
Almost three years ago, I posted the piece that I have copied below--it was on May 5, 2011, to be exact. I wrote it in the wake of the Osama take-down and my concerns about Western intel capabilities and the role that Pakistan played in hiding that mass murderer. A couple of days ago, a reader asked for my views on some recent lit that argues that Afghanistan was the "wrong" war and that the real war should be with Pakistan.

As you can see in the May 2011 piece below, I touched on that, noting the highly conflicted relationship we have had with Pakistan. Let me add a bit to that, and then return to the issue of the "wrong war."

India has viewed the West, and the US, in particular, as the protectors of Pakistan. As is the usual case when Indians tell their own history, they blame foreigners for much, if not most, if not all the misfortune, real and imagined, that has befallen India before and since independence. You will meet very intelligent and well-educated Indians who tell you that the British (and later the Americans) used "divide and conquer" when dealing with India. They conveniently forget, of course, that India is a British invention; there was no unified sub-continent when the British arrived. It was the British who united India and gave it whatever collective consciousness it has. The British did not invent the communal riots-cum-warfare that have swept through India since way before Hartza was a pup. The British did not introduce the dozens and dozens of languages, the many religions, and the myriad, great, colorful and very diverse cultures that characterize and divide the subcontinent.

The British bequeathed India much of what is good about India's politics and economic infrastructure. India's politicians, however, squandered much of that inheritance. The British left behind a highly educated elite that, unfortunately, proved much better at divide and conquer politics than the British, to say the least. The splitting of the subcontinent into India and Pakistan was the work of that elite; the horrendous ethnic violence that followed the British departure and the carving away of Pakistan cannot be blamed on the British, the West, or the Man in the Moon. That was the handiwork of the elites, in particular the horrendous Nehru and the somewhat less horrendous but still divisive Mohammed Ali Jinnah.

Nehru and his clan decided to take India in a direction away from the West and strike up friendships with all manner of leftist dictatorships, helping found the anti-US G-77 ("Third World") movement. They never really resigned themselves to the existence of Pakistan and, in essence, decided to make the poor and even more horribly misgoverned Pakistan's life hell. Pakistan was forced to exist with the constant threat from India that it could be terminated at any moment. This helped push Pakistan first towards the West, joining in military agreements with the United States including allowing US military facilities aimed at the USSR; then later, Pakistan tilted towards China, India's great Asian rival. India, in particular under the reign of Nehru's daughter Indira Ghandi, became very close to the USSR, and enjoyed trying to frustrate US objectives wherever and whenever possible. Under Indira, for example, the Indians would not condemn the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia nor years later of Afghanistan. India was very opposed to US efforts to work with Pakistan in support of the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan.

Now to the issue of the "wrong" war. As I state below, we did the right thing by working with Pakistan and the Afghan resistance to expel the USSR from Afghanistan. Once the USSR collapsed, we did what we always seem to do after major victories, we assumed that "history had ended," and could reap the "peace dividend" without fear. Well, of course, Afghanistan quickly fell apart, and the more ruthless radical jihadis, i.e., the Taliban, soon had the country in their grip. I mention below that the Taliban was a creation of the Pakistanis who, operating under the growing influence of Islamists largely funded by the Saudis, also played a role in helping AQ set up shop in Afghanistan.

Throughout the "war on terror" the Pakistanis have played at best an ambivalent game, and usually a duplicitous one. Pakistan's government is a badly splintered one; when I served there, one was never sure with whom one was speaking and making a deal--and it has gotten worse. So, yes, Pakistan is an "enemy" to the extent that their heart is not in the WOT, but it is an enemy with grave divisions and factions that want certain other factions killed or otherwise neutralized. The Pakistani military, for example, as a rule, still relatively jihadi free, does not, despite public statements to the contrary, really object to our drone attacks on militants in the tribal areas. There are wheels within wheels within Matryoska dolls within Matryoska dolls. So, again, for example, one can never be sure what side the powerful ISI (Pakistan's intel service) is on any given day.

By invading Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11, we did the right thing. Taking out the Taliban and the AQ had a powerful impact upon jihadis around the world. They never expected that the US would dare launch an invasion of Afghanistan, that it would be mounted so quickly, and carried out so efficiently. It was a stunner.

Some would argue that we would have done better to invade Pakistan. Much messier objective, and it would not have satisfied what we needed right away, to wit, to knock out AQ's base in Afghanistan and punish its Taliban hosts. If, furthermore, we are going to worry about fighting the wrong war, then we should probably also be talking about invading Saudi Arabia, which is in many ways a much greater threat to the US and the West than is Pakistan. Are we going to do that? Doubt it very much. As I have said many, many times, our secret weapon for dealing with the jihadis is our vast energy reserves. If we frack and drill, go nuclear, dig coal, and just stop putting impediments in the way of our energy independence, much of the money-generated steam will go out of jihadi efforts.

Anyhow, here is what I wrote three years ago. I think it still holds up OK.

May 5, 2011
Pakistani Perfidy and Western Incompetence in the Hunt for Osama
In the long ago 1980s, I spent several years working on Pakistani issues. I lived for two years in Islamabad and Peshawar, travelled all over the country, including in many areas now off-limits, and spent another two years working on Pakistan in Washington and returning frequently there. Those were the Reagan years, and we were working closely (sort of) with the Zia ul-Haq government to push the Soviets out of Afghanistan (more on that below.)

Pakistan is a strange country with a strange history. It is a rump piece, a backwater of the great Indian Hindu civilization, and is wracked by any number of complexes and pathologies. It is a Muslim state founded by one of the most non-Islamic people ever, Muhammed Ali Jinnah, who only reluctantly came to the conclusion that Pakistan should be created. Most of his life he had argued for keeping the Muslims of India within a democratic India. He was intelligent and good looking; dressed well; was not religious; spoke beautiful English; and was more at home in the salons of the well-to-do and educated than he was with the street rabble. He was never clear whether his vision for Pakistan was as a secular or a religious state, and that debate over his intentions still rages in Pakistan with a lot of historical revision undertaken to show the second. A heavy smoker, and, reportedly, a man who liked his Scotch, he died very soon after the creation of Pakistan. He therefore, never saw the country's subsequent humiliations and defeats. The carving away of Bangladesh, gave the lie to the creation myth of Pakistan as THE homeland of the subcontinent's Muslims, as did the fact that India continued to host one of the world's largest Muslim communities. We should note that more Muslims live in India than in either Pakistan or Bangladesh, and do not seem in a hurry to move to either of those "homelands."

Pakistan is and always has been a mess. It is held together just barely by two forces: the military, and hatred of India. Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis, Pashtos have little in common except religion, and there are even differences there. The Pakistanis, especially in recent years as Saudi influence has grown, have tended to oppress non-Sunnis, and to institute a copy of Saudi-type Islamic rule. Things have gotten progressively tougher for intellectuals, artists, writers, and women in Pakistan, as well as for Christians, Ahmadis, and Shias (although the Ismaili followers of the wealthy Aga Khan have bought themselves some respite from persecution--money does wonderful things in Pakistan). Most other religious groups have long been driven out, or firmly underground in Pakistan. It is not a democratic country; democratic values run very thin and weak, and even then only among a handful of mostly Western educated elites--many of whom see "democracy" as a great way to get very rich by buying and selling votes, favors, parliamentary majorities, etc. The late Benazir Bhutto, whom I knew quite well, and her extraordinarily corrupt husband, now President of Pakistan, shine as classic examples of that sort of "democratic"elite so beloved by the West.

Pakistan is a weak, resentful state, very envious of the success of India, especially since India freed itself of the horrendous Nehru clan, in particular that evil, murdering, pro-Soviet Indira Gandhi. Islam has done nothing positive for Pakistan. Under Zia ul-Haq, later assassinated along with the US Ambassador, the country became more and more Islamized, became progressively crazier and, frankly, stupider and stupider. It was Pakistan's intelligence service, the corrupt and faction-ridden Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) outfit, working with the Saudis that created the Taliban and, eventually, al Qaida. It was not the CIA, the United States, or Great Britain. That the USA and the UK created those operations is one of those little stories put out by the left and certain others to try to discredit our current efforts against the Taliban and AQ. It was the Pakistanis and the Saudis, not the US and the UK, who created the Taliban and AQ.

I worked in Pakistan at the height of the relationship between the US and Pakistan. Even then, however, we knew not to trust them too much. Zia, after all, did nothing to protect the US Embassy when it was attacked by a mob in 1979, following false local press reports of a US-Israeli attack on Mecca. That mob burned the Embassy, and killed four embassy employees, including a young Marine guard shot in the head by a sniper.

We knew they were double dealing us on the Afghans. We would insist they not support certain groups, they would promise, but then do so anyhow. They also played games with the Iranians, and we knew they were lying about their nuclear program. We reluctantly went along, as you often have to do in the real world, because we had the theory of defeating "one enemy at a time." We, too, did things that we did not tell them about. We were on a mission to destroy the Soviet Union, which at that time, and rightly so, was seen as the major threat to the United States, including to our homeland. That mission succeeded, and I still think we did the right thing by focussing on that mission. I am proud of the very small role I played in helping bring about that defeat.

Every victory, of course, brings consequences which successors must handle. The defeats of Germany and Japan were the right things to do, although those then opened opportunities for the Soviet Union and later Communist China. Our defeating Iraq in two wars benefitted Iran, but that doesn't mean it wasn't right to defeat Iraq.

Anyhow, bottom line, don't trust Pakistan. That government is ridden with factions, corrupt beyond belief, full of liars, and of people out for themselves and their families, not for the "country." Did Pakistan know that Osama had his man-cave in Abbottabad? I am sure parts of Pakistan's government did; almost certainly some officials were bought and paid for. I have been to Abbottabad many times in the past. It is inconceivable that a sprawling compound could go up in this sleepy and quaint town, without questions asked by Pakistani military, police, or intelligence services, or even by local politicians out to get some Baksheesh from an obviously rich potential benefactor who had just moved into town.

This episode, sadly, also raises some embarrassing questions which I have not read or heard asked about the West's intel services. When I worked in Pakistan, and this was well before high-tech drones, Google, and all the rest of that stuff, somebody with our Embassy, or with our friends at the neighboring British High Commission, would have commented on this compound, and undertaken an effort to find out who lived there, how it was being paid for, etc.

Since 9/11/2001, we have undertaken a multi-billion dollar manhunt for Osama, a hunt that focussed largely on Pakistan. It never occurred to anybody that he or some other very big fish might be in that complex? Had we become so enamored of the "he is living in a cave in the mountains" scenario that we couldn't conceive that this rich, spoiled, cowardly, and not very healthy man might be living in relative comfort somewhere more, shall we say, urbane? I hope I am wrong, and that the true history of the effort will show that somebody on our side asked about that compound. I am afraid, however, that this episode just shows how degraded we have let our intel services become, and, most notably, the poverty of our HUMINT capabilities. That degradation is understandable coming as it does after decades of attacks, mostly by the Democrats, on our covert capabilities. If the bad guy doesn't have a cellphone or internet we don't know who he is or what he is doing? That is a lesson our enemies, I am sure, have noticed, and that is not cheerful news.
W. Lewis Amselem, long time US Foreign Service Officer; now retired; have served all over the world and under all sorts of conditions. Convinced the State Department needs to be drastically slashed and reformed so that it will no longer pose a threat to the national interests of the United States.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by JE Menon »

If those who are either neutral towards you, or the sum of their actions are opposed to your general interest, are in the process of weakening themselves, do not intervene to enlighten them.

I'm sure chankia said it somewhere

And FYI:

http://machetera.wordpress.com/2009/09/ ... o-the-oas/
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

The Allama Iqbal, man behind the idea of Pakistan wrote about Mir Jafar, the Nawab of Bengal who colloborated with EIC to overthrow Nawab Siraj-ud-Dowla in 1757 and started British rule.
Allama Iqbal, in his poetry wrote about his treachery in these words, "Jaffar az Bengal,Sadiq az Deccan; nang-e-deen, nang-e-millat, nang-e-watan" which mean Jafar(Mir) of Bengal and Sadiq(Mir) of Deccan are a disgrace to the faith, a disgrace to Nation, a disgrace to Country. British with the help of Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq were able to conquer Bengal and kingdom of Mysore (Sultanat-e-Khuda daad).
ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Jafar

Yet within ten years after Pakistan was Partitioned from India in 1947, Mir Jafar's great-grandson Iskandar Mirza, was appointed and served as the first President of Pakistan by a military coup!!!

So Mir Jafar's great grandson took over TSP and launched it on its downward spiral!!!

Note Iskandar Miraza types are now known as mohajirs in TSP.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Ms. Christine Fair's exposition on Pakistan military, society et al. A Must see.
Fighting to the End: Pakistan Army's Way of War


This lead to a flurry of post in the STFU Pakistan thread....
rajpa wrote:CFair analysis does seem a bit like a spurned wench spitting fire on her TFTA ex-amour. She has however brought out some very interesting and legitimate analysis. This analysis is more or less well known among all forpol observers, which India may be able to use to its advantage going forward.

Some points of her analysis - and corresponding global thought that goes with it:
1. Indian professional defence journals vs paki "memoirs" - "lack of professionalism in TSPA? sell more arms, training etc"
2. Pakistani "security seeking" vs greedy - "greed is a virtue in some western capitals"
3. TSP constitution being an apartheid constitution - "really? they will change over time"
4. TSP having no legitimate claim on Kashmir - "who cares? war is war."
5. TSPA - a global insurgent - "but it is india focused, right?"

The actual reasons for TSP being successful at what it is - a global insurgent - are beginning to be addressed here. But since most of this is well known, four fathers have already formulated their strategies for their own benefits. But what are our lessons learnt?

TSP is really like a rat country waiting to feed on the blood of India, requesting for four fathers help to hunt India down in the first place. They keep the thirst for the hunt alive in the western capitals. This is necessarily pursued as a nefarious activity and as the saying goes "all is fair.." and hence it is recognized as a legitimate activity in the ethereal areas of realpolitik. We need to push the shoe back to the other side.

Our attempts to manage this perception of war have been just mildly successful. We have so far only presented our posture that Kashmir is an integral part of India - which has been sold by TSP to all watchers as a retreating posture.

There should be a proper raisin dieter from our own side to fight this piskological war.

Some options:
1. Deny there is a war today.
2. Declare that the war is over and that India has won it.
3. Declare there is a war and use any means necessary to fight. Bring TSP's alliance partners to our side and smash TSP's support structure.
4. Overtly declare there is peace and covertly damage TSP by all means necessary.

Infact, we may even need some stronger postures than these. I leave it to BRFites to conjecture further.

-JMT
shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: What was new to me was the idea that the Pakistan Army considers it as a victory if it lives to fight another day. Perhaps it was not new to some perspicuous BRFers. But it raises a problem - it is very unlikely that India can so utterly annihilate the Pakistani Army that it cannot rise again and fight. It suggests then, that the only way forward is to make Pakistan utterly irrelevant. That is a hard thing to do with a country that fights jihad under a nuclear umbrella.
In fact the idea that survival is victory was known to me. It is often stated by RAPEs as well as Paki army types. But not many people outside of BRF seem to know much of what Fair says.

However.. there is a third option. For no real reason Fair may have made me persona non grata on her Twitter account - I think she got pissed off by my smart aleck but non vulgar replies. But what I wanted to ask her was the idea that I have - that is gradually make the Pakistan army weaker and weaker and weaker. Given Pakistan's economy their military is dependent mostly on aid. That aid will have to stop - particularly US aid. Saudi and Chinese aid IMO are less relevant. Already the Pakistan army is "international insurgents" (International Gorillay?) as Fair says. Push it so far down the path that they have no chance of winning conventional war against even a relatively weak adversary. They will, of course have nukes - but it needs to be made expensive for them. No electricity, no literacy, no human development but an expensive nuclear program and an army that gets no aid but grabs money from the country. This is what Pakistanis deserve and I would not worry too much about the consequences. There are no consequences that I can think of that would be set in motion by a weak Paki army that cannot be done by a strong army - so I can't see why there will be any increased risk of anything. People will argue that they will be more likely to use nukes - but they are already at a stage when they have openly threatened or readied nukes. So we are past that.

The only downside of such a plan is that they will get angry with the US for not giving them military aid and the US, afraid of proliferation will cave in. The biggest irony is the number of years I have spent on BRF being told by "Rah Rah America" BRFites that the US is so powerful they can twist Pakistan around their little finger. How wrong that assessment has been. The US has always caved in first. But Pakistan is basically collapsing internally - there is no Christine Fair to document that.

One take away from the Fair video is that 40 plus percent of Paki children are not even in primary school (Haqqani says that). Pakistan is heading steadily towards failed state - but the Army continues to grab extra resources despite US aid. The The Paki army thrives on defeat and survival. It is survival without war or defeat that needs to be made difficult for the Paki army.
shiv wrote:As an aside - the Fair video shows how the US aided Pakistan because they thought that Muslims were like Christians, they were good people.

Who are bad people? Bad people attack and kill good people.

if Pakistani Muslims, allies of the US are good people, like Christians (as Fair says) who is killing them?

Modi's Gujarat killed Muslims, and therefore Modi and Modi's Hindutva are bad

That is why the US so readily allowed the legal steps to deem Modi a murderer, ably assisted by the Congress party, and assorted Paki supporters.

The US is not going to live this down easily because the idea that Muslims are fundamentally better than right wing Hindus exists just under the surface in the US.

If Fair says that Pakistan has set up a civilizational war, she is right, but that war has spread out of Pakistan. Unless ther are deep changes in US policy towards the Paki army we are only going to see an adversarial relationship between India and the US. There is even a possibility of India and China moving closer.

Your heard it here first. Sorry. OT
shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
That is a psychological dimension -- that children face and get over when they find out that Santa Claus is not a real person. But what is the material dimension? Is it simply that "acquiescing in Indian hegemony" means the Pakistani military no longer can commandeer the state's resources? Or is there something more than that?
<snip>
What do post-Independence Pakistanis have to actually fear from "Indian hegemony"?
I think this question needs to be addressed in two parts
1. What does the Pakistan army like to describe as "Indian hegemony"
2. What mango Pakis might consider Indian hegemony and the percentage of them who actually fear such hegemony.

As a thought exercise you could say that there could be one or more of the following possibilities at work in Pakistan
a. The Pakistan army raises fears of Indian hegemony and the entire Pakistan population believe them and are with them
b. The Pakistan army creates a false fear of India hegemony because it helps them to corner all resources and power, and people who do not agree are simply intimidated into silence (this factor actually appears in the Fair video)
c. Indians are a threat to Pakistan in that Pakistan may simply become an Indian satellite, dependent on Indian whims for trade and economy and security and Pakistan must fight this because they will lose their hard won freedom as the home for subcontinental Muslims.

I think point C is the only thing that matters. It is "the idea of Pakistan" as 'separate from Hindu India" that is under threat. The funny thing about point C (the "idea of Pakistan" is that it is wholly compatible with points a and b) .In other words all three could coexist in Pakistan side by side so that
I. If India is friendly with Pakistan, getting close to India is dangerous
II. If India is unfriendly, it proves the point that a hard won Pakistan is under threat

This is a "Catch 22" situation. A chakravyuha. There is no way out. Somthing has to go. Pakistan or the Pakistan army. Or India. We have a choice.
Anujan wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:This is likely a stupid question that I will regret asking. But aside from the dark imaginary fears of the Pakistanis, what does "acquiescing in Indian hegemony" actually involve? What does it mean and how does it negatively or positively affect Pakistani lives?

So just what does "acquiescing in Indian hegemony" mean?
It is actually an interesting question. Recall that just surviving wars is a victory for Pakistan against India. Correspondingly, then surviving terrorism is a victory for India against Pakistan.

"won't tolerate Indian hegemony" is code speak for "won't tolerate India's existence". The very existence of India is threatening to the Pakis. Several people have remarked about this too. For example Pakis have said that JK is not the end, it is the beginning. On top of that most countries after acquiring nukes (Like France) are comfortable that they won't suffer massive territorial loss anymore and actually embark on a path of friendship with their former enemies. Like France and Germany. What does Pakistan do? It innovates on terrorism by carrying it out under a nuclear umbrella.

There is precedence for this. It is US vs USSR waged through proxies and insurgencies under a nuclear umbrella. US wanted to dismantle USSR and not just ensure its security. Somehow US believed US was capitalism and freedom (like how Pakistan is Islam) and capitalism khatrey mein hai as long as socialist USSR (secular Hindu India) exists. Pakis have learned pretty much the same lesson of Jihad under nuclear umbrella during cold ear in Afghanistan and want to go the same route with India.

They are missing two key elements though. US used other countries population as radical Jihadis. Pakistan, like Kalidasa is cutting the same branch it is sitting on by radicalizing its own population. Secondly US had an economy that could sustain decades of fight with USSR. Pakis don't have that.
shiv wrote:
ramana wrote: I called TSP a kabila with the TSPA as kabila guards.
ramana - the word used by Fair that IMO exactly equals kabila guards is "international insurgents". It is not an army that fights proper army wars - but fights a guerilla/asymmetric campaign and never loses as long as it can run back and survive in its current kabila.

Fair also makes an interesting point in saying that the Brits had a "forward policy" where the NWFP was frontier, Afghanistan was buffer and Punjab was mainland. At other times Indus was border and NWFP was buffer.

For Pakistan too, NWFP and Taliban was frontier that kept Afghanistan and Soviets at bay. Now Indus is the border.

But Britain was ruling in Kolkata or Delhi, and ultimately London, and was hardly pressed whether border was further east or further west. Pakis have a strip of land between LOC and India - that is all. Either Pakistan defeats India, or it controls NWFP. If it can do neither - then Pakistan is simply a strip of land between Indus river and LOC.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:A_Gupta it goes back to Dar-ul-Islam(land of peace) and Dar-ul-Harab (Land of war). TSP as an Islamic state is in perpetual state of war. Yet the modern nation-state system treats TSP as a legitimate modern state.
However India is exercising strategic cluelessness as it can absorb the pin pricks, which befuddles the four-fathers. Hence arming the RAT with nukes by four fathers.

TSP is Pakjabi jihadi state created by UK to be their sword arm.

Might have worked in an earlier era but in modern world its irrelevant.

rajpa, one way to make them wear other shoe is cut of the legs or smash it so they can wear a shoe.

I called TSP a kabila with the TSPA as kabila guards.

If you take the big picture even Soviet Union was that.
How did it end?
True economic collpase helped but the final nail in the coffin was the stupid coup which showed the average Russain how mindless the kabila was and discredited the kabila guards.

Same way TSP people have to reject the primacy of TSPA.

They know that and hence cannot accpet any defeat but will spin it as a vioctory for not having been beheaded.

Mrs G hoped that 93K POWS returned to TSP would make regime change like in 1917 Moscow. However it was not same situation as the command structure in TSP was still intact.
And TSPA will always have generals coups and never a colonels coup.
A_Gupta wrote:
ramana wrote:Curzon, who created NWFP and hived of parts of it to Balochistan and West Punjab, gave a lecture on "Frontiers" in the Romanes series in London. This idea of frontiers is very clearly exposed in that lecture. The next luminary was Oalfe Caroe, who was Governor of NWFP just prior to Independence.
The text of Curzon's lecture: (PDF)
https://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/ibru/re ... curzon.pdf
shiv wrote:
nageshks wrote: But if you weaken their fighting powers, you will also weaken their political powers. They will lose prestige, and more and more, become a laughing stock in their own country. But the question remains - what will take their place? If the Pakistani military is weakened to the extent that they can no longer influence politics, won't the Lashkari types take their place in politics as well? Now, from India's point of view, this is no big deal. After all, whether we are dealing with a bunch of uniformless terrorists or uniformed one, it is irrelevant. But the US is getting some benefits from the Pakistani Army/ISI for its largesse to the uniformed terrorists. How are we going to sell to the US that it is in their interests to weaken the military? How do we sell to the US that the arrival of the uniform-less terrorists is not such a bad thing?
As I see it, we sell the US nothing, and give away nothing either.

This is a vague replay of irresistible force versus immovable object. The US keeps buttressing the Paki army (whose sole aim is to hurt India) and India simply thwarts every effort no matter how much aid the US provides to the Paki army. In fact this is pretty much what has happened from 1947.

What this has resulted in is EXACTLY what you have said - i.e. a gradual reduction of Paki army political clout and increase in jihadi clout. The US tried to sidestep this using fake assumptions based possibly on Paki promises. The US thought that Pakistan could really pull off the act of nurturing India specific jihadis while preventing jihads in general from hurting US interests. In fact jihadis under Paki guidance were expected to promote US interests like freedom and democracy. This has failed because jihad is not a Pakistani idea - it is lifted from Islam and probably the Quran/hadith/sura.

If C.Fair is to be believed - the US thought Muslims are good just like Christians until 2001 (9/11) They have started having other thoughts after 9/11. That means that it is entirely to our advantage to ensure that the US keeps getting attacked by Pakistani jihadis - and this in fact is just what has happened. the US has responded by paying the Pakistani army more (after 9-11) thinking that this will stop jihadis from attacking US interests. But the US has not realized that the Pakistani army itself is a jihadi force. The Paki army was the best specifically anti-India jihadi force in the world with enough discipline to avoid attacking the US, but after they lost all wars against India they have preserved themselves by letting Lashkars do the job. And the lashkars are now out of control.

The Lashkars cannot be controlled as long as the Pakistan army is training and funding them as autonomous "non state" forces to hit India. The Pakistan army will not stop training or funding them as long as they have the money and the incentive - which comes from US aid and US arms. If the US thinks the Paki army is good we (India) cannot convince them. But we can ensure that the Pakistan army continues to feel very threatened by us so that they keep on funding and arming Lashkars. Those Lashkars will attack anyone - including the US. This will be a vicious circle with no end - but we have no other option.

The fear that has been expressed is that after the US leaves Afghanistan, the Paki army will simply prevail and things will return to the bad old days. There is an interesting thing here. For India "bad old days" is from 1947, For USA, bad old days is after 2001. If post US withdrawal Afghanistan goes so far out of control that training camps sending jihadis to attack Europe and US targets - I think it will be a good thing for India. It will teach the US that the problem lies in propping up the Pakistan army. Of course jihadis will attack us as well. But we have been fighting that since 1947. The US only opened its eyes after 2001. And they looked in the wrong direction.

We should not convince the US. Let jihadis attack US interests and do the convincing. All we need to do is to look after ourselves and not solve any problems for the US. The US has never ever been interested in solving the jihad problem that India has faced from 1947. They are not about to start solving Indian problems now. But if that jihad hits the US - it's a good thing (for India) to have the US and jihadis hitting each other
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:{quote="jrjrao"}Hizb Al-Tahrir Rally at Al-Aqsa Mosque Calls on Pakistan Army to Liberate Jerusalem from Jews' Filth

Link to video:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4290.htm{/quote}
The man whose wife has run away fantasizes about having affairs with the most desirable models and actresses.
I am reminded of Rajnikanth's admonition "An old man who is unable to even stand up desires nine wives".

Beyond all these, why is there a call to the Army of Pakistan and the millions of people of Pakistan to fight for Jerusalem all of a sudden? This particular rally seems to be well attended.

We know that Hizb-ut-Tahrir has its roots in Jerusalem. We also know that HuT's former global leader, late Abdul Qadeem Zallum (d. 2003) from Palestine, considered Pakistan as an important future stronghold and a strategic base after the country went nuclear in 1999, according to various reports. Hizb ut-Tahrir believes in armed struggle (jihad) against hostile states only after establishing a caliphate in an Islamic country, preferably Pakistan. HuT is today largely a Pakistani outfit working out of Birmingham.

HuT was linked to the 2003 assassination attempt on Musharraf. When ex Pakistani Army Major Haroon Ashiq (his brother Captain Khurram Ashiq defected to Al Qaeda and died fighting NATO troops in Helmand) joined HuJI and went to China to procure night vision goggles, Haroon called on his friend Captain Farooq, who was President Musharraf’s security officer, who then went to the airport and escorted him out safely. Captain Farooq was a member of HuT which was discovered later and he was quietly retired from the Army. In 2009, the then commanding officer of Shamsi Air Force Base Colonel Shahid Bashir, a retired PAF Squadron Leader and lawyer Nadeem Ahmad Shah were arrested for HuT connections and leaking sensitive information to them. A military court in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir identified two military officers and two civilians in January 2010 as members of HuT and charged them with planning to attack the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan. This facility is generally believed to be used as a base for US drones attacking targets in Pakistan`s tribal areas. The accused were also charged with transferring sensitive information to HuT. A few days later, after the May 2, 2011 incident of raid by the US Navy SEALs on Abbottabad eliminating Osama bin Laden, Pakistan arrested Brig. Ali Khan from his post in GHQ, Rawalpindi for connections with HuT. The modus operandi of HuT is to bring the personnel of military forces, the members of academia and the elite under its umbrella. Unlike usual revolutionary movements, HuT aims to bring change through the military because it is well aware that the military is the strongest institution in Pakistan.

Many of its cadres were arrested in Uzbekistan on suspected involvement in July, 30, 2004 attacks on Israeli and US embassies. The abortive mutiny by the Bangladesh Rifles (BDR) in 2009 was instigated by HuT after the secular Awami League came to power following the December 2008 general elections. Another coup attempt in December 2011 by fanatical mid-level officers with supoort from UK-based Bangladeshi expatriates was also instigated by HuT. The HuT seems to have penetrated in Bangladesh the educated youth, who are highly motivated and belong to affluent families in urban areas. The HuT Bangladesh website reads “O Army Officers! Remove Hasina, the killer of your brothers and establish the Khilafah to save yourselves and the Ummah from subjugation to US-India”.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Philip »

X-posted:
And now the Brits arrest Altaf Hussain.What's the deal with Pak? Surely it has to do with the British pull out of Afghanistan and reduced US troop strength.Just like Osama,Hussain is being made the "sacrifical goat"!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 79315.html
Quote:
The exiled leader of Pakistan's Muttahida Qaumi Movement, Altaf Hussain, has been arrested in London, sending the country's largest city of Karachi into lockdown.

Scotland Yard said a 60-year old man had been arrested on suspicion of money-laundering during an early morning raid on a house in northwest London, but declined to confirm his identity.

A spokesperson for MQM confirmed that Hussain had been arrested but would not provide further details.

UK and Pakistan authorities have expressed concern that his arrest could unleash a wave of violence in the port city of Karachi, home to 18 million people, which he effectively controls from his London office.

Pakistan officials said protesters in Karachi have blocked roads and destroyed at least six buses and a car following reports of Hussain's arrest this morning. State television showed footage of large crowds gathering on the streets on Karachi and the sound of gunfire.

"All shops and markets are shut. Even small cigarette shops are closed," a Karachi resident told Reuters. "Petrol station operators have also closed down, fearing violence."

Known for his impassioned and fiery speeches, Hussain, a British citizen, has lived in self-imposed exile from Pakistan since 1991.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

X-posted...
By: Mani Shankar Aiyar

I was in Pakistan over the weekend on the invitation of my Cambridge college mate, former Pakistan foreign affairs minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri (2002-07), who has started the Regional Peace Institute in Islamabad, under whose aegis he has commenced a series of three “Pakistan-India bilaterals”, with part-funding from the Hanns Seidel Foundation of Bavaria. Our team was made up of academics, economists, social sector experts and media personalities rather than the usual suspects — politicians of the “has-been” or “never-will-be” hue, the sole exception (apart from me) being our former Congress foreign minister (2012-14), Salman Khurshid. Like Salman himself, most members were first-time visitors to Pakistan or new to track two exercises. They therefore brought fresh perspectives to bear on well-worn themes. The Pakistani team was, to some extent, similarly constituted, but significantly included two former directors-general of the notorious ISI, Generals Asad Durrani and Ehsan ul-Haq, two former ministers, a phalanx of former Pakistan envoys to India, leading media personalities and a few academics. Besides our exhausting day-long deliberations, opportunities were provided by our hosts and High Commissioner T.C.A. Raghavan for interaction with a broad spectrum of former top armed services personnel, distinguished Pakistani diplomats, ministers and politicians, both defeated and in office (including Sartaj Aziz), and other well-wishers. Since the whole visit lasted under 36 hours, here are a few fleeting impressions.

The attitude to the incoming Modi government may be summarised as a perplexed welcome. The Pakistanis are always better disposed to a non-Congress government for a number of complex reasons. First, the Muslim League-Congress rivalry in the run-up to Partition has left a deep and abiding anti-Congress streak in the Pakistani mindset. Second, while the BJP/Sangh Parivar’s Hindutva agenda sparks a certain element of concern and apprehension in Pakistan, subconsciously, the emergence of a Hindu India would finally validate the case for a Muslim Pakistan. The insistence on a secular state on our side of the border has left the Pakistan project incomplete and with little rationale. Third, the Morarji Desai government, in which Atal Bihari Vajpayee was the foreign minister, continues to be seen as the only Indian government that treated Pakistanis as equals and did not involve itself in Pakistan’s internal affairs, even as General Zia ul-Haq hanged Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. The legacy of the Vajpayee government, in particular the great “emotional breakthrough” of his visiting the Shaheed Minar to signal his party’s definitive acceptance of Pakistan, quite overwhelms any recall of Vajpayee’s mobilising a million jawans along the Pakistan border for a whole year or the collapse of the Agra talks. As for Modi, he is seen as a “strong” leader who, unlike Congress prime ministers, is not beholden to even party opinion, leave alone public opinion. Such authoritarianism reverberates well in the Pakistani mind.


to help us personalise your reading experience.

At the same time, never before in my 35 years of frequent interaction with Pakistanis, and in the 35 visits (at least) that I have made to Pakistan since I returned from my diplomatic posting in Karachi 32 years ago, have I encountered such a broad spectrum of pessimism about Pakistan’s future. This perhaps has much to do with ordinary Pakistani citizens’ fury and helplessness at the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan’s terrorist attack on the Karachi airport on the eve of our visit, but it has much more to do with the widespread belief that the Nawaz Sharif government just does not have the will or ability to deal firmly with the Islamist menace to the internal security of their Islamic state. One participant frankly stated that the Nawaz government’s political base in the critical province of Punjab is founded on its links to Hafiz Saeed’s Jamaat ud-Dawah and, therefore, far from being able to tackle the terrorists, Nawaz depends on them for political survival. This is a view frequently heard in India but, to my ears, it was the first time I had heard it in Pakistani mainstream circles. Another friend, just about as mainline as you can get, warned that Pakistan was on the brink of an “implosion”.

I personally find such pessimism exaggerated, but in the face of this build-up of internal security and domestic political pressure, it is unsurprising that many segments of Pakistani opinion, military or civil, political or non-political, media-based or outside the media, are persuaded that a via media with India must be found in Pakistan’s own interest — even if there is far from unanimity on how this is to be found. Where there is a kind of subterranean unity is in the view that the ball lies in India’s court and it is for India under the new government to make the first move, the key being the dropping of “preconditions” to dialogue, particularly those relating to terror, and the assurance of peace being delivered with “honour”. There is little acknowledgement of how unrealistic this is in the face of the BJP’s stated position, but the “window of opportunity” was projected as “six months”, after which, it was held, any dramatic breakthrough could be ruled out.


{This is the old TSP whine in old bottle. They didn't even dust it off an putin a new bottle and MSA is ready to buy the vinegar passed off as whine!}

Expectations of a breakthrough are, however, hedged in by what is seen as a bad beginning — not the invitation to the swearing-in, which is appreciated, but the briefing on the Modi-Nawaz talks by our foreign secretary, which the Pakistani media have portrayed as Sujata Singh indicating that Nawaz was given a wigging by Modi, to which he failed to adequately respond, and that Nawaz steering away from Kashmir and the Hurriyat amounted to what the BJP used to call “tushtikaran (appeasement)”. The morning after my return, I saw headlines about Defence Minister Arun Jaitley having stated in Srinagar that any violation of the Line of Control would jeopardise all progress in Indo-Pak relations. That is going to add fuel to the Pakistani suspicion that the Modi government may be interested in imposing a peace without honour on the northwest corner of our subcontinent but is not in a mood to initiate talks among sovereign equals. The silver lining hoped for is that since Modi’s core constituency comprises Gujarati businessmen (including Khojas, Bohras, Ismailis and Memons, the key Muslim business communities), the renamed version of the most favoured nation treatment treaty with Pakistan might furnish him with the excuse for the first bilateral prime ministerial visit by an Indian PM to Pakistan since Rajiv Gandhi went there in July 1989 and Vajpayee a decade later.

But even if such a visit were to take place, it would not succeed unless Modi and Nawaz cease being in denial over the enormous progress made on the back-channel under Pervez Musharraf and Manmohan Singh, which, for the first time, has been made public by special envoy Satinder Lambah in a speech in Srinagar in May 2014, on the eve of his laying down office. Khurshid Kasuri and Natwar Singh’s forthcoming books, slated for publication around the same time in the next few weeks, will significantly augment public knowledge of the back-channel talks. That initiative sputtered over Musharraf’s troubles with his judiciary in 2007. But so long as Modi and Nawaz, the latter obsessed with preparing the gallows for Musharraf, engage in a conspiracy of denial over progress in 2004-07, further progress, if any, will be at snail’s pace.

The writer is a Rajya Sabha MP from the Congress

express@expressindia.com

Looks like MMS has sold out more Sharam-less-Sheikh stuff under back channel talks.


What and where did Lambah say his stuff? And why did he say it in the din of the election results. Maybe he didnt want it to be found out?
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

To do shuddhi after Aiyers' barf...
Virendra wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:{quote="Virendra"}<snip...> If we put pressure on east, don't all the Af-Pak momins get a chance to unite under 'Islam khatre me hai' banner to protect their brothers?
They'll drop everything, getting a higher cause to fight ... :evil:{/quote}

Why this new myth that we again can't punish TSP since it will let all Pukes get together.
If that is the case, so be it. If TSP deserves a bear hug from India, let it happen. Let all TSPians from all corners come out like roaches to fight on the east, but this should never be a reason for India not to raise the cost of terror acts by Kabila
Never said we can't punish pukis then, I'm all for it. This just increases the difficulty level in the game, thats all.
I have already said that we need a proper formatting and re-boot in Pakistan to purge all the virus, specially on the ideological and institutional dimensions.
Instead of no Pakistan, I'd prefer a beggar Pakistan bent to us on its knees. So we can throw some bread and keep it as a buffer against all churnings of Central Asia, or the western influence thereof. In near future we'll need some space to grow, buffer for safety and a playground as our test lab. Would be good to use Pakistan for all these purposes so we don't trouble our junior allies in the region.
Well well .. all the wet dreams !!
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by A_Gupta »

ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

A_Gupta wrote:Excerpts from above-mentioned Satinder Lambah speech:
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... future/99/

Full text:
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/A-P ... ion/290718

The speech should be decoded as it gives a window on UPA1&2 mind about looking at Pakistan

Thanks for the link...
For The Record
'A Possible Outline Of A Solution'
Full text of the speech by PM's envoy in his "personal capacity" which has come under attack for suggesting that "any agreement must ensure that the Line of Control is like a border between any two normal states"

Satinder K. Lambah

{After the 2014 elections are over and the results are not yet released thsi speech in persoanl capacity is a pre-emtive strike by the PM's personal envoy. he is reducing options for the incoming government. As the PM's envoy he has no personal capacity while he is still working for the PM. Even if he has resinged he has no option to talk in his own capacity.

In 1947 when India became free there was simultaneously the process of Partition and integration. The modern Indian state was forged from British India provinces and hundreds of princely states. At the same time, a separate sovereign nation of Pakistan was carved out of India. The Kashmir issue is a product of the circumstances at the time of the birth of India, and the untenable foundation—discredited nearly 25 years later by the creation of Bangladesh— of Pakistan’s coming into existence in the name of religion. India’s position on Jammu and Kashmir is legally, politically and historically correct.

{I agree only with the last statement. Kashmir problem is not due to religion but surreptious invasion of Kashmir by Pakistani forces is the origin of th eproblem. Alos Indi awas there eternally and not just in 1947. Precise use of words is must for a diplomat.}

Yet, it has remained one of our major post-independence problems, contributing to three wars between India and Pakistan, decades of cross-border terrorism and violence, and incalculable sufferings for the ordinary people of Jammu and Kashmir. It has consumed enormous political, economic and diplomatic resources and remains to this day one of our national security preoccupations.

{Not really. Its a mnor irritant. Its the Kashmir obsession of Nehurvian Foreign Policy establishment. The real problem is Pakistan and Kashmir is symptom. Incorrect problem statment leads to solving the wrong problem precisely.}


Therefore, successive Prime Ministers of India have made resolution of the Jammu & Kashmir issue a priority. Prime Minister Nehru’s initiatives culminated in the inconclusive Swaran Singh-Bhutto Talks in the early 1960s. :rotfl: Indira Gandhi’s efforts to seek a settlement through the Simla Agreement reflected recognition, even in the moment of decisive victory in the 1971 war, that a solution to the Kashmir issue was important for lasting peace and security. In a generational shift, Rajiv Gandhi tried to chart a new course with Benazir Bhutto. :rotfl:

As India reoriented its foreign policy in the post- Cold War world and economic reforms era, first Narsimha Rao, and later LK. Gujral in pursuance of the Gujral Doctrine, made serious attempts to improve Indo-Pak relations. Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s bold attempt to reset the relations in 1999 took place months after the nuclear tests by both the countries; his bus journey to Lahore highlighted the proximity between our two countries and the centrality of people to this relationship. Kargil did not dissuade him to engage its perpetrator in Agra, nor did the Parliament attack of December 2001 stop him from making another journey to Pakistan in January 2004 in search of peace and settlement. And, despite discouraging signals he continued with the back channel discussions on Kashmir.

{Lambah tries to posit UPA take on the Kashmir issue as a continunation of past efforts by previous PMs. It begs the fact that those PMs were all answerable to the Republic of India while MMS was answerable to Sonia Gandhi who is anwswerable to no one. All in all areciep for a sllout for personal interests. We have PMs talking in personal capacity and their envoys likewise!!!!}


Dr Manmohan Singh picked up the baton and turned it into one of his foreign policy priorities. :rotfl: His vision is rooted in India’s security, economic development and global aspirations, and in the transformation of a region that is central to India’s destiny. He has consistently advocated a solution that does not seek to redraw the border or amend the Constitution; but one that makes the boundary irrelevant, enables commerce, communication, contacts and development of the Kashmiri people on both sides and that ends the cycle of violence. In this regard, he appointed a Special Envoy to conduct back-channel-discussions with Pakistan.

{If he apppointed an envoy then why the need for back channel diplomacy? Why could there be no periodic briefings by the envoy to the Lok Sabha or even Sonia Gandhi all these ten years? The focus on solving Kashmir as a regional issue takes away from the larger issue of TSP. The solution has to be acceptable for all Indians and not just Kashmiris led by Abdullah and his coterie.}


Efforts made by India and Pakistan to seek a solution to the Kashmir issue have gathered momentum this century. :rotfl: It has been conducted quietly and without the knowledge, prompting and involvement of any third party. The process has survived and sustained itself despite brutal and high visibility assaults— from the Parliament attack :?: to the embassy bombing in Kabul and to the Mumbai terror attack— and through political transitions in both countries. This progress was based on two pillars— respecting ceasefire along the Line of Control and a disavowal by Pakistan of the use of terrorism as a state policy allowing the use of its territory by non-state actors. These continue to be essential prerequisites.

{Yet this two prerequisites get repeatedly violated with constant beheadings by TSP terrorist in or out of uniform. And shame on Lambah for continuing the useless dialoge when the so called essential prerequistes were observed more in breach! Can we map the progress of this back channel diplomacy to the beheadings and terrorist actions?}


I have had the privilege of working with six Prime Ministers of India on matters relating to Pakistan in the last 35 years. Each one of them had given priority to improving relations with Pakistan. At the highest level of the government, there has always been interest, readiness and resolve. This has helped us to move forward.


{You had the privilege of working with last six PMs. This is irrelevant to the topic at hand unless you want to claim this is what they all would have agreed to. They are not there to contradict you!}

In view of past history, emotions, disagreements, violence, wars and failure of negotiations, it is not easy to specify the outlines of a solution. However, as the past six decades have clearly shown, the Kashmir issue cannot be settled by war, force or violence. A solution will also remain elusive if we keep harping on positions that have failed to resolve the problem in the past.

That is why we have to look for ideas that are practical, workable and acceptable. We can also learn some useful lessons from the Simla Agreement and Lahore Declaration.

Let me today venture to make some suggestions of a possible outline of a solution in my personal capacity.

• After three wars and long periods of disagreements, it is essential that any agreement must ensure that the Line of Control is like a border between any two normal states. There can be no redrawal of borders;

{This is fundamental no-no. In effect it legitimizes Paksitani occupation by force of the Kashmir and other areas in 1947. And is in contradiction of the PVNR sponsored Lok Sabha resolution in 1992.}

• Alongside, in accordance with the normal acceptable behaviour between nations, it is imperative that the people of J&K on either side of the Line of Control should be able to move freely from one side to the other. This is particularly essential as on both sides of the Line of Control live not only the same ethnic groups but also divided families;

{Fundamental error of conceptualization. Pakistan is not a normal nation. And every day its descent inot chaos is clear. In such circumustances formalizing LOC as border condemns the residents of POJ&K to eternal damnation. Free movement will aloow Paksitan to send more terrorists as they all will claim to be Kashmiris!!! And future midgets (pun on Lambah) will wring their hands and say they were outsmarted like at Shimla to blame a dead PM.}

•The process of progressive removal of tariff and non-tariff barriers in specified locally produced goods already underway has to be expedited to ensure meaningful trade between the two sides of the LoC;

•The essential prerequisite IS that there has to be an end to Hostility, Violence and Terrorism;

•Once this happens, it would be important that military forces on both sides of the LoC are kept to the minimum, particularly in populated areas;
[I}{Are you crazy? its Indian armed forces that are ensuring peace in Kashmir. What kind of a diploamt you are that gives away our advantage for an illusory peace. Even Chamberlain was better! For Munich allowed British re-armament by ttwo years}[/i]

•It would be important to ensure self-governance for internal management in all areas on the same basis on both sides of the LoC;
{WKKitis in full display!}

•There has to be respect for Human Rights on both sides of the LoC and efforts need to be made to reintegrate into society those sections who had been involved in violent militant activities; and

•Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in his speech in Amritsar on March 24, 2006 has stated that he “envisaged a situation where the two parts of Jammu & Kashmir can, with the active encouragement of the governments of India and Pakistan, work out cooperative, consultative mechanism so as to maximize the gains of cooperation in solving problems of social and economic development of the region.” It should be possible to do so to enable it to look into socio-economic issues like Tourism, Travel, Pilgrimages to Shrines, Trade, Health, Education, and Culture.

A settlement will give the people of J&K an opportunity to seek a future defined by the bright light of hope, not darkened by the shadow of the gun. It will revive relationships and reunite families. The people on both sides will benefit from an integrated socio- economic development and the possibility of harnessing the enormous economic potential of the area, including its water resources. Connectivity within the region and the world will improve. Investments will increase, tourism will prosper, trade will grow, handicrafts will thrive, the services sector will flourish and the youth will have more opportunities. It will unleash the full potential of a talented people of unmatched beauty and great diversity. :rotfl:

It is true that the Kashmir problem has not stopped India from forging its destiny as a secular, pluralist democracy and one of the world’s major economies and a military power. However a solution to Kashmir issue will substantially enhance India’s security, strengthen the prospects for durable peace and stability in the region and enable India to focus more on the rapidly emerging long term geopolitical challenges. It will relieve the burden that our security forces have to shoulder in terms of lives and resources. It could provide a boost to the Indian economy in a variety of ways, open a market with one of the world’s largest population, restore our historical links to Central Asia and Eurasia and contribute to enhancing our energy security through improved connectivity with West Asia and Central Asia. Above all, it will herald a new era of peace and prosperity for the entire region.

{Wont waste my time on this homily. The last part shows incorrect understanding. its the nature of Pakistani state that is the problem. Other states based on Islam are happily managing (all over North Africa, Turkey, Malaysia, Inodnesia) but TSP has major cognitive dissonance issues in the elite and the common people. They need a comprehensive defeat to come to terms just as Ottoman Turks did over two centuries after Vienna. This constant giving them an out like in Shimla due to deluded MEA experts is the root cause of the people of Pakistan suffering by not coming to terms with their issues.}/

For Pakistan, a solution will enable it to contribute to the welfare of the people of Jammu and Kashmir and to their progress and prosperity. It will relieve Pakistan from a debilitating military competition with a much larger neighbour that has drained its economy. It will hopefully strengthen its ability to turn the tide on terrorism and radical militancy. :rotfl: Pakistan could refocus its energy on the task of economic transformation. It could prosper from the enormous economic opportunities that come from cooperation with neighbours. As Asia seeks to integrate across its many fragmented parts, Pakistan, at peace with India, could become the bridge between south Asia and West and Central Asia; and, a hub for regional commerce, energy flows and intellectual and cultural exchanges. Needless to say a stable Pakistan is also in India’s interest. Experience shows instability anywhere is bad for neighbours.

These expected gains from a solution may not be automatic and will require sustained effort. But, if it opens the door to a new future for India and Pakistan, without compromising our security, integrity and constitutional framework, it is worth pursuing. The alternative is status quo of a festering problem and lingering tragedy that will keep us from realizing our potential.

Great powers do not wait passively for events to unfold, but seek to shape their environment in pursuit of their national interests. We are undergoing enormous transformation in a world witnessing change and transition on an unprecedented scale. It has opened vast opportunities for us to accelerate our economic development, strengthen our security and expand our influence. This is our moment to seize. A stable, peaceful, cooperative and connected neighbourhood is essential for us to realize our destiny. Solution of the Kashmir issue will help us on that path.

{i]{is he a diplomat or a politician? Should stick to diplomacy.}[/i]

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Satinder K. Lambah is a Special Envoy of the Prime Minister. This speech was delivered during participation in his personal capacity at the seminar on ‘Discussion between India and Pakistan on Jammu and Kashmir— A Historical Perspective’ organized by the Institute of Kashmir Studies, University of Kashmir, Srinagar, on May 13, 2014

I am sorry he is selling a bitter lemon which will increase and prolong the suffering of the Pakistani people. And Indians will suffer more terrorism.
This is a Chamberlain's "Peace in our Time" type of speech at Muncih which led to World War II.
Such diplomats should be retired and never seen/heard again.
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