Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

shiv garu, that is true, I got the dates wrong. I was merely trying to comment on the aspect of the west just doing a word analysis and naming the civilizations based on such artifacts as word counts. But I stand corrected.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem »

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ could be, or possibly curved horned sheep which were common in the mid-east and a regular part of neolithic life
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Jhujar ji,

as I see it, it is definitely a sheep!
AbhiJ
BRFite
Posts: 494
Joined: 29 Sep 2010 17:33
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by AbhiJ »

Source
Prior to Bunohan the best film at the MFF 24 'Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa' which tells the story of the legendary sea-farer and warrior, a descendent of Alexander the Great, received international attention.

In the movie, when the Roman legion stopped in Goa, India to mend their vessels, they sought the help of Merong Mahawangsa to take the Roman prince to Langkasuka so that he could marry a Chinese princess from the Han dynasty. This mission is riddled with danger.

Merong Mahawangsa was screened in more than 40 nations and received good reviews.
krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5868
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by krisna »

Fresh excavations to start at largest Harappan site
After a gap of 13 years, excavation work will start once again at Rakhigarhi, estimated to be the largest Harappan civilization site located in Hisar district of Haryana. This early Harappan settlement, considered bigger than Mohenjo-daro, was listed among the 10 most endangered heritage sites in Asia just last year by the Global Heritage Fund, which is, incidentally, partnering with city-based Deccan College Postgraduate and Research Institute that will start fresh excavations at Rakhigarhi this year.
The college has been working on the site since 2006 and conducted a survey using ground penetration radar (GPR), which uses electromagnetic radiation to image up to 20 metres of the subsurface. The survey revealed that the site was spread over 400 hectares, dispelling doubts about it being the largest Harappan site. "So far, archaeologists thought that Rakhigarhi was the third largest Harappan site in the subcontinent, after Harappa and Mohenjo-daro. However, a preliminary survey of the site revealed that it is spread over 400 hectares, and is bigger than Mohenjo-daro, which is located in Sindh, Pakistan, and is spread over an area of 300 hectares," said Vasant Shinde, senior archaeologist and joint director at the Deccan College Postgraduate and Research Institute.
The variations in the Harappan culture across various regions, such as differences in locations, town orientation, burial customs and painted ceramics will also be studied. Deccan College will be carrying out this work along with the Indian Trust for Rural Heritage and Development (ITRHD), New Delhi, the Archaeological Survey of India, which incidentally carried out excavations here from 1997-2000 and also the Global Heritage Fund.

Deccan College's initiative would not be limited to excavation alone. Setting up of a museum to preserve the finds and developing the site as a tourist attraction are also on the anvil. "The site is very close to the heart of the village and there have been instances of encroachment on it. Excavation work will help in preserving the site. In addition, since the site is only 130 km from Delhi and is well-connected, it can be developed as a tourist attraction. The remains excavated can be preserved. In addition, they could be preserved in a way that tourists can walk through a veritable Harappan city," said Shinde, adding that preservation of the site is now paramount.
Encroachments and reported thefts of artifacts from the site have been a serious concern among archaeologists. And for this reason, Shinde said they have proposed archaeological as well as community development work for Rakhigarhi village. "The villagers have been supporting us in this endeavor, especially since the excavation work will stop the encroachments here," he added.

Archaeological sites have been identified in this village to study the process of development of Harappan cities and towns, as the development has been gradual and did not happen overnight. "This site is an ideal candidate to study the development of the Harappan culture, as it dates between 4000 BC and 1500 BC. The development of Harappan culture goes back to an early era--from 4000 BC to 2500 BC. It is after this phase that the Harappan civilisation experienced transformation into its urban phase," said Shinde.

Training camps here for students from across the globe will also be conducted, where in they would be provided with practical training on how to excavate sites and preserve the finds.
searched Rakhigarhi here in brf -- http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/search ... mit=Search


dhaagas dealing with Rakhigarhi are in ISRO, Out of India thread and Distorted history ones.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem »

How far is Rakhigarhi from Kurukhetra?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Jhujar wrote:How far is Rakhigarhi from Kurukhetra?
Not sure exactly. Rakhigarhi is about 70 km west of Panipat and north west of Rohtak (and Delhi)

The old Saraswati used to run from near Patiala down to Hisar and then via Rakhigarhi and extending all the way to near Bahawalpur in Pakistan and then back into the Rajasthan desert have Harappan remains along the banks of a wide dried up river bed now identified as the Saraswati
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

It is OIT...

Some Domestic Animals of the Indo-European Homeland and their dispersal
(horse lovers ensoi for last time before reading this)
http://aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/3/
Abstract:

The much acclaimed hypothesis of the Indo-European origin in the steppe and language change of north India by a small number of migrating steppe pastorals has not been examined objectively so far. The modern language (Slavic) of the steppe region has lost either the word itself or its meaning for the most of the domestic animals, associated with farming, of the Proto-Indo-European homeland. Similar is the case of Anatolian Hittite language. DNA studies as well as archaeology rule out domestication or even early presence of most of the domestic farming related animals in the steppe. On the other hand India has earliest presence of such animals, as proved by archaeology and DNA studies, and also the Indo-Aryan language has retained with meanings the words for such animals. A re-examination of archaeological evidence rules out early domestication of horse and the chariot in the steppe, where horse was mainly captured for food. Review of older findings suggests an indigenous domestication of the horse, and the oldest presence of the two-wheel chariot in India.

The archaeological evidence rearranged, suggests that during the Chalcolithic period, possibly Indo-Aryans from Indus went out to create the enclaves of Indo-Aryan language and culture in the BMAC, Sintashta and Anatolia (Mittani).
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

Hey Aryan Invasion theorists! Horses are running away from you guys...

Origin of Light Sivalensis Horse from India
http://aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/
The DNA studies of horse shows that the Aryan-horse association is a myth, and that the horse was domesticated at many places. Archaeology shows that the Central Asians were late to use horse, say about 50 AD, and the Central Asian Bactria-Margiana-Archaeological Complex had no horse at all. Thus there was an archaeological disconnect between the Ukrainian and the South Asian horse domestications, meaning that horse was domesticated independently at the two places. This is consistent with the DNA findings.

The Indian sivalensis horse has survived as many modern breeds of horse, and the Arabic, the Thoroughbred of Europe and the Blood races have evolved from the sivalensis. There is a geographical population structuring of Indian horses, indicating that the Indian horses are indigenous and have not been imported.
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

There is a consensus that modern humans arrived in the Americas 15,000–20,000 y ago during the Late Pleistocene, most probably from northeast Asia through Beringia.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/ ... hort?rss=1
Yayavar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 06 Jun 2008 10:55

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Yayavar »

Murugan-ji: thanks for those links.
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

Viv-ji My pleasure to see horses galloping..
***

This is a Graham Hancock Video about connections between civilizations and civilizations connected to astronomy many thousand years ago...

A must watch for every one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-yz1DfTF3-E

Nilesh Oak will find it more useful because precession of equvinox is mentioned at length with reference to Angkorwat. It was known to architectures and builders of Angkorwat. A brilliant movie made!

***

Also see for 10500 BC connection amongst civilizations
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Murugan wrote:Viv-ji My pleasure to see horses galloping..
***

This is a Graham Hancock Video about connections between civilizations and civilizations connected to astronomy many thousand years ago...

A must watch for every one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-yz1DfTF3-E
@42:40+ one sees Schoch suggesting an older date (5000-7000 BCE) to the Sphinx based on precipitation erosion at the base of the Sphinx. Egypt's main Egyptologist Dr. Zahi Hawass is adamant that the Sphinx is not that old, and that the 2500 BCE dating for it is pretty much right. I believe that this obstinacy is doctrinal.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:
Murugan wrote:Viv-ji My pleasure to see horses galloping..This is a Graham Hancock Video about connections between civilizations and civilizations connected to astronomy many thousand years ago... A must watch for every onehttp://youtube.com/watch?v=-yz1DfTF3-E
@42:40+ one sees Schoch suggesting an older date (5000-7000 BCE) to the Sphinx based on precipitation erosion at the base of the Sphinx. Egypt's main Egyptologist Dr. Zahi Hawass is adamant that the Sphinx is not that old, and that the 2500 BCE dating for it is pretty much right. I believe that this obstinacy is doctrinal.
He mention Easter island as the Centre of Earth , linked with the Angkor Wat and the Pyramid. Easter Island Island and Brahmi script has much similarity.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... UPXo0&NR=1
Interesting ponit at 38 Minute about the multiplicity of God.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Murugan wrote:Viv-ji My pleasure to see horses galloping..
***

This is a Graham Hancock Video about connections between civilizations and civilizations connected to astronomy many thousand years ago...

A must watch for every one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-yz1DfTF3-E
@1:38:53

Image

Śeṣanāga ?
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Murugan wrote:Viv-ji My pleasure to see horses galloping..
***

This is a Graham Hancock Video about connections between civilizations and civilizations connected to astronomy many thousand years ago...

A must watch for every one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-yz1DfTF3-E
@2:26:40

"Among the survivors were seven sages, seven builder gods, who chose to settle in Egypt. They traveled around this land, building sacred mounds, which were to be the foundation of all future temples. Their objective was nothing less to recreate the former world of the gods"

Seems like an obvious reference to Saptarishis. I see however that Hancock has tried to avoid speaking of Indians as much as he could.
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

He has separately filmed 48 minutes film on Dwarika and lost cities of Bharat.
He clearly spells out fallacy of AIT!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M

***

His video on lost civilization stresses the need of Archaeo Astronomy to understand the ancients.
The only prob I have with him is that he does not give any credit to Indian Mathematician or Astronomers. But Dwarka video is little different.

Never mind, we do not need Hancock's certificate. The need of the hour, create fund and organize research the antiquity of Bharat and Bharat's influence around with the passion and alacrity of Graham Hancock, also using Archaeo Astronomy.

We need to have separate channels for Samskritam and our Desh ki other languages, Dedicated Bharat History / Archaeoloy channel, (Non tomb/non makbara centric) Bharat Tourism, our own TED type activities and of course completely desi culinary channel and one channel to shoo the horses and spoked chariots away. Graham Hancock mentions in above dwarika video that the indoctrination has happened for so long, the AIT will die hard or has it?

Priority to first three channels ! I think there are lot of money in these too!
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

Bharat Centric Programs of yester years... that included History and Culture

Far Away from today's pathetic mughal and gulami centric tourism and cultural program, these two doordarshan programs are worth mentioning (when doordarshan lived upto its name and never a dukhdarshan like it is today)

Surabhi - very well presented by Siddhart Kak and chirpy Renuka Shahane. one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLlVFxZrkoQ

Aisa Bhi Hota Hai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLlVFxZrkoQ
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Virendra »

RajeshA wrote:I see however that Hancock has tried to avoid speaking of Indians as much as he could.
Because the western bigots will be after his head if he did.
This by the way reminds me that the Kaliyuga article of Bibhu Dev Mishra had appeared on Hancock's forum.
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

My point is we do not need Hancock or other cocks to speak about bharat. in other words, why We need Hancocks (though, he has made a big documentary on Dwarika and he has many other India centric videos let us not forget that) when we have Kaks and people like them. Why such people should not be given a chance to make such films and let rest of the world discuss it!

Moreover, the above video is about Lost Civilizations, WE are not Lost civilization == we are still alive (added later: and kicking, especially the behinds of PIE/AIT walas) as longest continuing for millenniums civilization, thats why he might have not included India in his video :)

We dont need Hancocks, thats all. We have to develop our own, or use who are already there, who have grips on such subjects and better presentation skills - as apparent in Surabhi video link.
Last edited by Murugan on 05 Apr 2013 12:38, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Murugan ji,

my comment on his leaving out the uncanny parallels to Indian mythology and astronomy was basically an observation.

You are perfectly right that we do not need any Hancocks. It is our absence from the field of civilizational discourse and discovery that has allowed others to get in. We need to enter the field with forcefulness and passion.
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

Rajesh-A Ji (I had understood your point, and I also feel the same)

+ 1008 to ^
Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4102
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Neela »

Murugan wrote:There is a consensus that modern humans arrived in the Americas 15,000–20,000 y ago during the Late Pleistocene, most probably from northeast Asia through Beringia.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/ ... hort?rss=1
Please to read the book 1491.
The native Americans were there long before that!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from "Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis" Thread
shiv wrote:Iran was Zoroastrian up to about 500 BC. Greek and Rome were pagan. Zoroastrianism had lasted 1500 years from the time it split away from the Vedic civilization around 2000 BC. Christianity itself came at a time of flux, and Islam followed rapidly thereafter.
shiv saar,

these dates seem to be very recent. Perhaps you may have information I don't. There are a few posts on the dating of Zarathustra. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6].

I know you did go into the issue of dating earlier.

Just asking if there is any new information which changes the dating theories from "was at least x years ago" to "was x years ago"!

If it is the former "was at least x years ago" then it doesn't conflict with theories who put Zarathustra much earlier, but if one is putting a specific date to it, then it becomes an alternative theory to those which place his date earlier.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from "Indian Martial Arts Discussion" Thread

Just saw a video on
Murugan wrote:Old video clip from DD's Surabhi Program Serial. Kalaripayatta!

@00:03:14

Image

This is a house in Village:Puduppanam, Taluk:Vadakara, District:Kozhikode, State:Kerala!

As was mentioned earlier here
Boddidharma taught the Chinese monks the barehanded fighting techniques of Kalaripayat, a very ancient Indian martial art, so that they could defend themselves against the frequent attacks of bandits. In time the monks became know all over China as skilled exponents of barehanded fighting, which came to be known as the Shaolin boxing art.

The Shaolin temple which was handed back a few years ago to the C ’han Buddhist monks by the Chinese Government, inheritors of Boddhidharma’s spiritual and martial teachings, is now open to visitors. On one of its walls, one can see a fresco depicting dark-skinned Indians teaching their lighter-skinned brothers the art of barehanded fighting. On the painting is inscribed : « Tenjiku Naranokaku », which means : « the fighting techniques to train the body (which come) from India.

Kalaripayat, or Shaolin boxing as it is came to be known, passed from China to Japan, through the Ryukyu islands, landing in Okinawa to blossom in the art of the Empty Hand, or later, Karate. Later it manifested in the Japanese mainland as jiu-jiu-tso, judo, Shorinji Kempo, etc. Karate, the art of the Empty Hand, father of all Japanese martial arts, is a blend of Boddhidharma’s martial teachings and the local fighting techniques, which existed there before the advent of Zen Buddhism. All Asian martial arts, particularly those of China and Japan, recognize their origin in the Shaolin Temple and honour Boddhidarma, (whom the Japanese call Dharuma). His portrait is often displayed in their dojos, where martial arts are practised.
So if Kalaripayatta/Shaolin went from Kerala to China, perhaps one could say that architecture too could have migrated from Kerala to China. There is some architectural similarity to the house above and Chinese traditional architecture.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:Continuing from "Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis" Thread
shiv wrote:Iran was Zoroastrian up to about 500 BC. Greek and Rome were pagan. Zoroastrianism had lasted 1500 years from the time it split away from the Vedic civilization around 2000 BC. Christianity itself came at a time of flux, and Islam followed rapidly thereafter.
shiv saar,

these dates seem to be very recent. Perhaps you may have information I don't. There are a few posts on the dating of Zarathustra. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6].

I know you did go into the issue of dating earlier.

Just asking if there is any new information which changes the dating theories from "was at least x years ago" to "was x years ago"!

If it is the former "was at least x years ago" then it doesn't conflict with theories who put Zarathustra much earlier, but if one is putting a specific date to it, then it becomes an alternative theory to those which place his date earlier.
Only the Greeks came up with a date "5000 years before Trojan war". No one else.

Actually my date was a typo. I think Zoroaster coincided with the Atharva Veda around 1200 BC. The Rig Veda in my view was probably over and done with by 2000 BC, but the earliest Rig Vedic references go back a long time. I have no means of saying when apart from Archaeoastronomical references. The post Vedic Vedanga Jyotisha has a very clear ref to 1280 BC. There are some refs that the Atharva Veda was not yet formalized like the other Vedas by this time. However the Shatapatha Brahmana - from the Krishna Yajur Veda has dates going back to 3000 BC and there are other Vedic dates that go back to 3000, 4500 and 6000 BC.

But not Zoroaster. Zoroaster IMO was a more recent phenomenon. Apart from the similarity of the Zend Avesta to the Atharva Veda and the fact that it is probably the Bhargava Atharva Veda, other "historic" correlations from references to Iron and from The Greek historian Ctesias that probably puits Zoroaster around 1000 BC although no western source believes thi necause no one believes Ctesias.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

Talageri argues that Avesta coincides with the later Mandalas of the Rig-Veda itself.

Here is another post which talks about the parallels.

Koenraad Elst in his review of Shrikant Talageri's Book: "The Rigveda and the Avesta - The Final Evidence", says
Another spectacular finding is that the early Avesta, involving Zarathustra, coincides in time with the youngest period of the Rigveda. The material and religious culture, along with the vocabulary and the name-types, allow us to link a number of datable extra-Indian connections to the youngest layer of the Rigveda. The remnants of Indo-Aryan vocabulary in the West-Asian Kassite (17th BC) and Mitanni (15th BC) culture, bequeathed by Indo-Aryan-speaking emigrant groups of at least several generations earlier, belong to the youngest period. This implies that the Rigveda must have been completed by ca. 2000 BC.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

Talageri argues that Avesta coincides with the later Mandalas of the Rig-Veda itself.

Here is another post which talks about the parallels.

Koenraad Elst in his review of Shrikant Talageri's Book: "The Rigveda and the Avesta - The Final Evidence", says
Another spectacular finding is that the early Avesta, involving Zarathustra, coincides in time with the youngest period of the Rigveda. The material and religious culture, along with the vocabulary and the name-types, allow us to link a number of datable extra-Indian connections to the youngest layer of the Rigveda. The remnants of Indo-Aryan vocabulary in the West-Asian Kassite (17th BC) and Mitanni (15th BC) culture, bequeathed by Indo-Aryan-speaking emigrant groups of at least several generations earlier, belong to the youngest period. This implies that the Rigveda must have been completed by ca. 2000 BC.
Not sure how Talageri reaches the conclusion that the time of Zarathustra coincides with the latest/youngest phases of Rig Veda. I have not found any independent way of agreeing with Talageri on Zarathustra's date, although I agree that the last of the Rig Veda was probably 2000 BC or earlier. This is not just because of the vocabulary of Mitanni, but because the Rig Veda predates the drying up of the Saraswati.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

I do not have his last book, :( but as an example, there are several names which occur both in Rigveda and Avesta for example
Rjashva/Arjasp and Somaka/Humayaka on the Indian side, Vishtaspa/Ishtashva on the Iranian side. RV 1:122:13 mentions Ishtâshva, the Sanskrit form of Iranian "Vishtâspa", well-known as Zarathustra's royal patron: "What can Ishtâshva, Ishtarashmi or any other princes do against those who enjoy the protection (of Mitra and Varuna)?"
From all I have read in reviews, Talageri has been very thorough in making his case, and in his book one would see him going into many many details!
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

I do not have his last book, :( but as an example, there are several names which occur both in Rigveda and Avesta for example
Rjashva/Arjasp and Somaka/Humayaka on the Indian side, Vishtaspa/Ishtashva on the Iranian side. RV 1:122:13 mentions Ishtâshva, the Sanskrit form of Iranian "Vishtâspa", well-known as Zarathustra's royal patron: "What can Ishtâshva, Ishtarashmi or any other princes do against those who enjoy the protection (of Mitra and Varuna)?"
From all I have read in reviews, Talageri has been very thorough in making his case, and in his book one would see him going into many many details!
As far as I can see the similarity in names need not indicate that they are synchronous. One could have come before the other. AIT people say Iranian religion predated Vedic. Talageri may say they are synchronous. i say that the Vedic religion is older and Zoroaster and his religion are an offshoot of that. Plenty of material to suggest that the latter is the case, and the similar names only indicate common roots, not common dates.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Talageri's view is that the early Avesta is synchronous with youngest Rigveda, however the earlier parts of the Rigveda may be indeed be much earlier.
Last edited by RajeshA on 05 Apr 2013 21:17, edited 2 times in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:Talageri's view is that the early Avesta is synchronous with youngest Rigveda, however the earlier parts of the Rigveda may be indeed be much earlier.
Talageri's main problem is that he was one of the earlier scholars to fight the WitMer nasties. The structure of his arguments are all aimed in that direction. But we all owe him a debt of gratitude because he, among others were the "first wave" of post independence Indians to bring down the academic racism, and chart out a new path. However I differ from him on dates for Zoroaster, though I agree with his general thrust on the antiquity of the Vedas.

In my view, if we are looking at Sanskrit the language and the Vedas, we are only adding to confusion by pulling in Buddha and Zoroaster, both of who came millennia after the earliest dates for the Rig Veda. There is enough material to get some dates for the Vedas without tying oneself in knots about either Buddha or Zoroaster. in fact AIT dates for both Buddha and Zoroaster are fully compatible with an ancient Vedic culture viewpoint and both Zoroastrianism and Buddhism were OIT.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

The point I'm trying to make is that Talageri seems to have provided a substantial amount of data in his comparison between Rigveda and Avesta. I say substantial because the whole book is about it. I can't speak of the quality as I have not read the book, but the reviews have praised him, and the Witzels haven't really been able to criticize him or point out obvious mistakes.

So I guess he has a case about partial synchronicity.

If however another alternative theory has to be put up, the theory would have to deal with the points he makes, and shows exactly why there may be room to think differently, shows a different interpretation of the data.

Since Zoroastrianism is placed in the far antiquity especially by both the Greeks and the Mahabharata also alludes to this, then that in fact puts Rigveda into an even higher antiquity.

The antiquity of Rigveda is at least something I believe in, and this data point that Zoroastrianism itself is of a high antiquity, strengthens the claim of a higher antiquity for Rigveda.

I hope Nilesh Oak soon has something more to say on the dating aspect!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:However I differ from him on dates for Zoroaster, though I agree with his general thrust on the antiquity of the Vedas.

In my view, if we are looking at Sanskrit the language and the Vedas, we are only adding to confusion by pulling in Buddha and Zoroaster, both of who came millennia after the earliest dates for the Rig Veda. There is enough material to get some dates for the Vedas without tying oneself in knots about either Buddha or Zoroaster. in fact AIT dates for both Buddha and Zoroaster are fully compatible with an ancient Vedic culture viewpoint and both Zoroastrianism and Buddhism were OIT.
shiv saar,

you're of course right, that the case for Sanskrit and Vedas can be made independent of Zarathustra.

However in the end we will have to provide our own view on dating, our own version of history and both Buddha and Zarathustra would be key figures whose age we may have to fix.
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

So if Kalaripayatta/Shaolin went from Kerala to China, perhaps one could say that architecture too could have migrated from Kerala to China.There is some architectural similarity to the house above and Chinese traditional architecture.
Rajesh garu, I think that is a stretch, because Bodhidharma was a monk first. Self discipline is something he thought is important through self defense so Indian defense techniques making way through him makes sense. I might be wrong but, I found no references about Bodhidharma's contribution to Chinese architecture.
johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by johneeG »

RajeshA wrote:Continuing from "Indian Martial Arts Discussion" Thread

Just saw a video on
Murugan wrote:Old video clip from DD's Surabhi Program Serial. Kalaripayatta!

@00:03:14

Image

This is a house in Village:Puduppanam, Taluk:Vadakara, District:Kozhikode, State:Kerala!

As was mentioned earlier here
Boddidharma taught the Chinese monks the barehanded fighting techniques of Kalaripayat, a very ancient Indian martial art, so that they could defend themselves against the frequent attacks of bandits. In time the monks became know all over China as skilled exponents of barehanded fighting, which came to be known as the Shaolin boxing art.

The Shaolin temple which was handed back a few years ago to the C ’han Buddhist monks by the Chinese Government, inheritors of Boddhidharma’s spiritual and martial teachings, is now open to visitors. On one of its walls, one can see a fresco depicting dark-skinned Indians teaching their lighter-skinned brothers the art of barehanded fighting. On the painting is inscribed : « Tenjiku Naranokaku », which means : « the fighting techniques to train the body (which come) from India.

Kalaripayat, or Shaolin boxing as it is came to be known, passed from China to Japan, through the Ryukyu islands, landing in Okinawa to blossom in the art of the Empty Hand, or later, Karate. Later it manifested in the Japanese mainland as jiu-jiu-tso, judo, Shorinji Kempo, etc. Karate, the art of the Empty Hand, father of all Japanese martial arts, is a blend of Boddhidharma’s martial teachings and the local fighting techniques, which existed there before the advent of Zen Buddhism. All Asian martial arts, particularly those of China and Japan, recognize their origin in the Shaolin Temple and honour Boddhidarma, (whom the Japanese call Dharuma). His portrait is often displayed in their dojos, where martial arts are practised.
So if Kalaripayatta/Shaolin went from Kerala to China, perhaps one could say that architecture too could have migrated from Kerala to China. There is some architectural similarity to the house above and Chinese traditional architecture.
RajeshA saar,
I had wondered about this(similarity of architecture) several times long ago. Of course, Indian architecture seems to have several other styles also. But, the chinese, japanese, and korean architecture look remarkably similar to the indian one. The curves are more exaggerated in the chinese, japanese and korean versions.

Malaysia, till recent past, had acknowledged its hindu heritage. Indonesia and Thailand still acknowledge their buddhist past.

Not just the architecture, but there are several other pointers, like customs. Eg: Shikha.

Image
In the above picture of Chanakya, he is shown with a shikha.

wiki on shikha:
The sikha or shikha (शिखा śikhā, crest) is a Sanskrit word that refers to a long tuft, or lock of hair left on top or on the back of the shaven head of a male Orthodox Hindu. Though traditionally all Hindus were required to wear a śikhā, today it is seen mainly among Brahmacharya, 'celibate monks' and temple priests.
Shikha was considered very important and was never shaved. It was shaved only during Sanyasa(renunciation from the worldly activities and giving up the vedic rituals).

Chinese also follow the same custom of sporting the long tuft or lock of hair:
Image
In Chinese custom also this, tuft of hair was considered very sacred and never shaved.

Japanese also follow the same custom of sporting the tuft of lock of hair:
Image
In Japanese custom also, this tuft of hair was considered very sacred and never shaved.

Jews also have a custom in regard to hair. But instead of one on the back of head or top of head, they have two side-curls. It is called payot.
wiki:
The Torah says, "You shall not round off the פְּאַת Pe'at of your head" (Leviticus 19:27). The word Pe'at was taken to mean the hair in front of the ears extending to beneath the cheekbone, on a level with the nose (Talmud - Makkot 20a).[1] The Mishnah interpreted the regulation as applying only to men. Thus it became the custom in certain circles to allow the hair over the ears to grow, and hang down in curls or ringlets.[2] According to Maimonides, shaving the sidelocks was a heathen practice.[3] There is considerable discussion in the halachic literature as to the precise location of the payot and of the ways in which their removal is prohibited.[4]
Image

So, Jews, Japanese, and Chinese have the custom of Shikha that is followed by Indians.

It seems to me that many of the western customs were imported from China/Japan. For example, the chinese dress style:

Image
Look at the lose dress.

There is an interesting point here. The Chinese Kings and Queens used to wear extra-long dresses which would actually sweep the floor behind them, as they walked. This was considered royal.
Image

Now, there is an interesting point in Islamic tradition. According to the islam, Mo ordered men to wear pyjamas that were only upto ankle length. Why? Because, at that time, it was fashionable to wear long pyjamas. So long that they would actually sweep the floor as they walked. The more longer it was, the more richer and royal one was considered. To put an end to this custom, it is said that Mo ordered his followers to wear pyjamas only upto ankle length. Let us not go into the question of historic authenticity of this incident right now. The relevant point is that at that time people wore long garments which would sweep the floor when one walks. This is very similar to the Chinese.

Also, notice the similarity between the chinese dress and the arabic dress.
Image

The women's garment is just copied from men's garment in both cultures.

But, the chinese garments and the japanese garments share some similarities with ancient indian garments.
Image
The above is a picture of Sri Krishna Deva Raya of Vijayanagara.

The difference in the Indian and Chinese/Japanese version of men's clothing is in the lower garment. The Indians use dhoti. The chinese and Japanese used pants. The arabs discarded the lower garment completely.

There is another interesting point: skull caps.

I think skull caps were exported to middle-east from China. Indians wore turbans and diadems. Chinese seem to have preferred caps, made of cloth. Japanese preferred basket like hats made of straw. Of the various types of caps wore by the chinese, one type seems to be common: skull caps.

Image

Notice that the chinese traditional skull cap is black and made of cloth. The jews' traditional skull cap is also black and is made of cloth. This was borrowed by the muslims, who used white ones instead of black. It seems in the arabian culture, the white was reserved for men and black for women. Again shades of yin and yang. Yin is female and black, while Yang is white and male. And Yin-Yang reflect the Purusha-Prakruti. So, there seems to be an inter-connection.

The origin of the modern western hats seems to be the Japanese straw hats.
Image
Japanese basket like straw hat. It is called Komuso.

Image
And modern day hat.

Talking of hats. The long hat of Jews is very similar to the traditional hat of Koreans.

Image
Jew wearing a hat.

Image
Korean in traditional attire. Notice the similarity in hats.

There is another pointer. Spoons.
In India, people eat with hands. It seems there is a vedic injunction on this, that tells people to prefer eating with hands because it is healthier. It was not as if the spoons/ladles were not known to Indians. But, they were not used for eating food. They were only used for cooking and serving.

So, there needs to be a difference between using the spoons for cooking and serving vs using the spoons for eating the food. Where did this custom of eating the food with spoon originate?
Is it possible that chop-sticks are the precursor to spoons?
People in Japan, China and Korea eat with chop-sticks. It is quite understood that Chop-sticks are very ancient. So, its possible that the custom of eating food with spoons was exported from China, Japan or Korea to Europe.

----
If that curved thing is seen as horns, then it looks like a sheep. But, if that curved thing is seen as ears, then it can be a calf. If its a calf, that would explain the lack of horns and hump on the back.

This idol was found near a phallus. And it was found in Israel. There is a story of Moses. Moses goes to the top of a mountain to prepare the laws which would guide his followers. It takes a long time for him to come down. Meanwhile, the people who are waiting for him near the foot of mountain decide to worship a golden calf. They make an idol of golden calf and start worshiping it. Moses comes down with the laws, but is enraged that people are worshiping the calf. So, he breaks the idol of calf. Then he persecutes the people who played the chief role in the worship of calf. The laws of Moses are the famous ten commandments. And this scene is very celebrated in the Abrahamic religions.

So, this story clearly establishes that the worship of calf was popular at that time. Hence, this idol can be an idol of a calf.

Israel was called Palestine. In Hebrew, it is called Palestina. Now, this is quite close to Pala-Sthana. Sthana, of course, means place in Sanskrit. Pala means guard or herdsman. Gopala means Cowherd. Pashupala means herdsman. Simply Pala means either a guard or herdsman. So, this place must be a place of herdsmen and designated as such in Sanskrit.
---
RajeshA wrote:
Murugan wrote:Viv-ji My pleasure to see horses galloping..
***

This is a Graham Hancock Video about connections between civilizations and civilizations connected to astronomy many thousand years ago...

A must watch for every one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-yz1DfTF3-E
@1:38:53

Image

Śeṣanāga ?
That person with a bird's face and wings could be Garuda...

----
johneeG wrote:There is another angle here: Right and left. The left side of a male body is assigned to the shakti(or feminine). And right side of a female body is assigned to the male. This is depicted in Ardha-Narishwara. Ardha-Narishwara is a form of Shiva combined with Shakti. Shiva is on the right side and Shakti is on the left side of the same body. They share the same body to show that they are inseparable. Strictly speaking, they are one, but appear as two.

Image

All the Hindu God couples are portrayed in this manner. The Goddess(feminine) sits on the left lap of the God. This is a common theme in the depiction of all Hindu God Couples. This point was also borrowed by the Buddhists and Jains. Even the normal(human) couples are expected to stand in this way(specially on important/religious occasions) i.e. bride(wife) to the left side of the groom(husband) or groom(husband) to the right side of the bride(wife).

Image
Notice that Sita amma is sitting on the left lap of Sri Rama.

Image
Notice that Lakshmi devi is sitting on the left lap of Nrisimha Swamy.

Yin and Yang seem to follow this particular theme i.e. left occupied by the feminine and right occupied by the masculine.

Image

Yang(Shiva or Purusha or Ishwara) is represented on the right side. It is white(or transparent).
Yin(Shakti or Prakruti or Maya) is represented on the left side. It is black.

In Hinduism, Shiva is taught to be fair as a crystal, while Shakti is dark(Kali) or golden(Gauri). There are deep meanings to these colors. Crystal or white symbolizes transparency i.e. devoid of qualities. Shakti (or Prakruti or Maya) , on the other hand, is composed of the qualities(Sattva, Rajas and Tamas).

There is another point. Yin contain a small circle of Yang and Yang contains a small circle of Yin. Yin and Yang are not independent of each other. The same thing is true of Shiva-Shakti(or Purusha-Prakruti or Ishwara-Maya). In certain forms of Shiva, Shiva is depicted alone. But, it is considered that in such forms Shakti is latent. For example: Dakshinamurthi and Nataraja. In these forms, the left part is depicted in a feminine way. If one carefully studies any proper depiction of Dakshinamurthi or Nataraja, then one would notice that Dakshinamurthi or Nataraja wear feminine decorations(particularly the ear-decoration) on the left side. Essentially, it is to show that Shakti is latent in Shiva on the left-side.

Similarly, when only Shakti (or Prakruti or Maya) is seen, then it needs to be understood that Shiva(or Purusha or Ishwara) is latent within it. For example, there are certain depictions of Goddess(Shakti) where she is seems to be alone. But, even in these depictions one needs to understand that the God(Shiva or Purusha or Ishwara) is latent within the Goddess(Shakti or Prakruti or Maya). 'Prakruti' means 'nature'. Everyone can see the nature(or world). But, they see only the nature(or world). It needs to be understood that God is latent within the nature(or world). The nature(or world) cannot exist independent of God.
There is another point here: right-left is also connected to agni-soma thing.

In kundalini, there are 3 primary nadis. Ida, Pingala and Sushumna. Sushumna is the central nadi.
Pingala is the nadi to the right. And Ida is the nadi to the left. Pingala is red in color and is masculine. Ida is white in color and is feminine. Ida is connected to moon. Pingala is connected to sun.

Because, Pingala is to the right, all beings have masculine to their right side. And because Ida is to the left, all beings have feminine to their left side.

Ida and Pingala are connected to nostrils. Through Pranayama the breath(Prana) is controlled and thereby energy in the Ida and Pingala is balanced. And finally, Sushumna is activated. Then, the Kundalini starts to rise up from Muladhara. There are 6 Chakras. Starting from:
1) Muladhara
2) Svadhishtana
3) Manipura
4) Anahata
5) Vishuddhi
6) Agnya

After Agnya chakra, the final destination of the Kundalini is Sahasrara. When the Kundalini reaches Saharara, it is seen as the mating of Shiva(Purusha) with Shakti(Prakrit).

The Kundalini can be activated at two places. The starting point: Muladhara. Or the Agnya Chakra. The Muladhara is situated at the lower end of spinal chord. The Agnya Chakra is situated between the eye-brows. Hindus wear bindi/tilak to stimulate this Agnya chakra and thereby activate Kundalini shakti.

Image

Moon(Soma) rules the Ida. So, Soma rules the left side. Sun rules the Pingala. So, Sun rules the right side. Thats why, in the Virat Purusha(or Vishwa-rupam), the left eye is shown as Moon and the right eye is shown as Sun.

But, there is an interesting point here: Generally, after the Agnya Chakra, Sahasrara is shown. But, there are some other chakras in between Agnya and Sahasrara. These are not shown, because they are not major stops for Kundalini while it traveling. But, it is important. Because, Kundalini's mating at Sahasrara with Shiva signifies the Samadhi state. In this state, world is not manifest. The slightly lower state is the state where the world comes into being. The distinctions start manifesting. So, that slightly lower state is important. This state/chakra is situated between Agnya and Sahasrara. It is in the forehead.

This minor chakra situated in the forehead is called gyana chakra. Agnya chakra means the chakra of order. Agnya also means a-gnya(no-knowledge). So, the person who has taken his kundalini to Agnya chakra, still lacks that knowledge. It is acquired in the next minor chakra called gyana chakra. As I said, this chakra is situated above the agnya chakra. Agnya chakra is situated between eye-brows. So, gyana chakra is situated in the forehead.

When, kundalini reaches gyana chakra, one acquires knowledge. It is as if the eye of knowledge opens up. The third eye of Shiva, in the forehead, signifies this. This knowledge destroys the ignorance and hence the world is said to be destroyed. The left eye is ruled by Moon, the right by sun, this third eye is ruled by Fire (Agni).

Shiva's third eye is the eye of knowledge. It is also the eye of fire(Agni). Shiva and Agni are denoted by upward triangle.

Image

Now, shiva is denoted by the upward triangle. How would you represent Shiva's third eye?
Image

:mrgreen:

Wiki:
The Eye of Providence (or the all-seeing eye of God) is a symbol showing an eye often surrounded by rays of light or a glory and usually enclosed by a triangle. It is sometimes interpreted as representing the eye of God watching over humankind (or divine providence).[1][2][3] In the modern era, the most notable depiction of the eye is the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States, which appears on the United States one-dollar bill.
----
Another pointer: Goat of mendes
THE ORIGINS OF THE GOAT OF MENDES


The origins of the "Goat of Mendes" can be traced back to Ancient Egypt. Goats and Rams were worshipped in many cities throughout Egypt thousands of years ago. The Goat is synonymous with Satanism. The horns represent the Horned Gods/Goddesses. Goats also symbolized fertility in many different cultures and times. The Goat as a symbol of fertility and focus of religious rites dates all the way back to Sumeria.

The Goat of Mendes
Ptah the Egyptian God of Magick, knowledge and wisdom *became* the goat, and sometimes a ram in the city of Mendes where he was worshipped as such. The Goat/Ram of Mendes represented the "Ba" which was the Egyptian word for the "soul." Ptah was considered to be a great magician and "Lord of the Serpents."¹

There are many false claims, based upon ignorance that the Goat was invented as a reaction to the "lamb" of xianity. The xian use of the lamb came much later and in truth is based upon the sign of Aries (The spring Easter lamb). A href="http://www.exposingchristianity.com/">Everything in xianity has been stolen and corrupted from religions preceding it.

The Horned Goat is also directly of Enki . The constellation of the Horned Goat (Capricorn) is the time of the winter solstice, known as "The Southern Gate of the Sun." ²

“The Goat was known in early Babylonian times as the God ‘Ea’ . Ea was known as ‘He of vast intellect and Lord of the Sacred Eye’ protector of his people and the bringer and giver of knowledge and civilization to humanity. Represented as a snake, he ended up in the ‘Garden of Eden as the Snake in the tree of life, encouraging learning and knowledge rather than blissful ignorance.’ Whenever Ea roamed the Earth, he took the form of a goat. Ea was considered the Father of Light" and his celebrations dating back to 15,000 B.C.E., were carried out wearing goat skins.³
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Goat.html

Sorry for quoting from this satan garbage. But there really seems to be paucity of neutral and intelligent info on this topic. Either, there is EJ garbage or this satanic garbage. I thought this article was better than most.

The relevant point is that Goats and Sheeps were worshiped. The above picture posted by Jhujhar could be Goat. Or maybe not. Regardless, the worship of Goat faced god seems to have been part of ancient european or middle-east cultures. And with the advent of X-ianity, this ancient god was turned into a satanic figure.

Fine. But, there is an interesting connection here. In Hinduism, goat represents fire god(Agni). And further, when Subramanya was born, it was Agni who initially acted as His foster-father. At that time, Agni had goat face. Further, Subramanya has 6 faces(connection to Shatkona or David's star). Subramanya is seen as the combination of Shiva(Purusha) and Shakti(Prakruti). He is also the combination of Agni and Soma. That means He represents the process of Yagnya. Also, one of the Subramanya's face is goat face. Yep. Subramanya is also a God of fertility. Further, Subramanya is represented by snake(s).
wiki:
The belief is that Vasuki and other snakes took refuge under God Subrahmanya in the caves at Subramanya. Here God Subramanya is worshipped as a snake. This is the god's divine power.[1]
Link

In some places, the Subramanya is depicted by combination of two snakes.

So, this shows another connection. The modern day satanic figure is connected to some ancient god figure which in turn is connected to India.

----
The Egyptians wear snake figure on their head. It seems Egyptians had a snake Goddess. Kundalini is considered as Shakti. Kundalini itself is represented as a snake. Again this seems to be connected to Shiva-Shakti.

---
Another pointer: Pentagram.

Pentagram has been associated with Satan. Most probably this is due to the church's propaganda. And that must be because Pentagram was related to some ancient pagan god.

But, in Hindu tantra, pentagram is connected with Lord Shiva.
----
Another connection: Nagas and Mermaids.

There is a story of Arjuna marrying Ulupi. Ulupi is a naga(snake) princess who lives underwater. Mermaids seem to be related to this.

Chinese seem to have something on similar lines:
Wiki:
The Legend of the White Snake, also known as Madame White Snake, is a Chinese legend, which existed in oral tradition long before any written compilation. It has since been presented in a number of major Chinese operas, films and television series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Snake

In the Chinese version, two snake women transform themselves into human form and visit a chinese city and fall in love with a person. These snake women originally live in a lake, underwater.

The modern day mermaids, according to wiki, is derived from Siren of Greek culture.
wiki:
In Greek mythology, the Sirens (Greek singular: Σειρήν Seirēn; Greek plural: Σειρῆνες Seirēnes) were dangerous and beautiful creatures, portrayed as femmes fatales who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island.
This may be related to Nagas of Indian culture.
----
The essential point is that all things( whether they are seen as positive or negative) in the various cultures of the world are directly or indirectly related to India. The foreign ones seem to be distortions(both positive and negative) of the originals in India.
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Feng Shui principles are very akin to Indian Vastu system. Buddhists stupas are similar and Buddhism is also a common thread through which stupa architecture might have found a way perhaps, but not sure about Kerala architecture.
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Traditional Chinese and Indian Architecture Compared: Black and White or Shades of Gray?
Wu posed a China/India dichotomy in 1963 his essay length book, Chinese and Indian Architecture
In his book Wu started off by suggesting a commonality. “Both traditions exhibit a strong desire to relate a cosmic ideal with man’s own image and role within it.” The desire to relate the human condition to the perceived cosmic order is indeed at so primordial a level that almost any culture that built and reshaped the physical environment would share this interest in connecting the human condition to a conception of the cosmic order as that culture conceived it.

Then, Wu quickly shifted to differences “with a Chinese world of walled cities…shaped by… [an] ideal of regulated harmony in society, and rooted in the human intellect. In contrast there was “an Indian world of holy places…[and a] concern for eternity,” based upon the search for the meaning of life. Clearly what had caught Wu’s interest and attention was how these two civilizations had conceptualized the human condition, the cosmos, and the relationship between them. To illustrate this dichotomy, Wu used a Western Han tile design of the “Four Deities” dated about 200 BCE, and a medallion from the Amaravati Stupa of about 150 CE. Each was a twodimensional representation of a three-dimensional reality that had been created towards the end of the formative periods of each. The Han tile was a square that stood for a cube representing the Han world of man. As Wu explains: “the Chinese universe is actually a cube. The design here is merely a plan of it. The central shaft is memory, that tenacious tie of ancestral worship, and is also time. In Huai-nan Tzu, a Han dynasty book almost contemporary with the making of this type of tile, the reality of the universe is understood as the combination of “a six-sided world” (top, bottom and four sides) plus “past, present, and future.” As this cube of a universe spins down the central axis of time, Chinese history unreels, the four seasons revolving with the Chinese cyclical calendar. There are good years and bad years, but the nation is forever the Central Kingdom.” (Wu, 13) Four of the sides of the cube contained within it a cosmic orientation, and a cluster of meanings:

East – the Blue Dragon, blue-green vegetation, wood and the upreaching tree.
South – the Red Phoenix of Summer and fire at the zenith.
West – the White Tiger of metallic autumn symbolic of weapons, war, executions and harvest; of fruitful conclusion, the calmness of twilight, of memory and regret, and unalterable past mistakes.
North – the Winter, cold region, black, the element water; “Hsuan-wu a snake coiling around a turtle, two hibernating reptiles forming a
picture behind man’s back of life preserved underground.” (Wu, 12) The fifth element not represented by a picture but by writing is man in
the middle with the scattered words “One thousand autumns and ten thousand years, enduring happiness, never to end.” For Wu this and the many other similar Han brick and tile designs were “self-portraits of the houses or cities of which the tiles were a part.”
The rectilinear tile “is a rigid, finite, and unnatural design [by which I take him to mean intellectually abstract].” (Wu, 29) “Always keeping man in its center, it is an image of man’s society, organizing its enclosed space around him. The Chinese designer is continually challenged and inspired by the specific requirements of each social program and by the human relationships in the society which his building serves and portrays.” (Wu, 30) The courtyard dwelling, and the walled city represent this conception at radically different scales.
In the late Spiro Kostof’s terms the Chinese are creating an architecture emphasizing circumscription and shelter. (Kostof, 21) Circumscription refers to the act of establishing a boundary that defines what is inside the boundary from the setting around it. This act also begins the process of giving shape and dimension. Shelter is Kostof’s way of referring to the enclosure of space. In Kostof’s terms the act of marking off an area to create a space for the rituals of daily life, and further defining portions with shelters that create fully defined volumes in contrast to the exterior spaces usefully builds upon what Wu is describing.

In contrast to the Chinese square Wu juxtaposes the Indian circle, in this case the Amaravati medallion representing the numerous depictions of ritual events, “the translation of Buddha’s Alms Bowl to the Tushita Heaven.” The bowl is the central image “traveling up and down the eternal shaft of time” with the numerous surrounding figures subsidiary, and helping to maintain the focus on the central image. Wu continues: “The “center” of the medallion is somewhere about halfway between the middle and the top.
It is where one would expect to find the North Pole on the picture of an axially tilted globe, and the rings of dancers are analogous to its latitudinal lines. It suggests the all-inclusive shape of a sphere but with the invisible half of the sphere concealed from man’s knowledge. Foreground figures are seen in full, while only the heads of those in the distance are visible.
Running through the center is the path of the alms bowl through the layers of heavens. The infinite universe of India revolves around that cosmic axis.”
(Wu, 13) This focus on a central axis corresponds to Kostof’s notion of the central vertical solid that defines the space that revolves around it. (Kostof, 21)
Locked