Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Mathematics in Ancient India

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Mathematics in Ancient India

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His Holiness Jagadguru Shankaracharya Shri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja compiled a set of 16 mathematics formulae and called termed them Vedic Mathematics. [Wikipedia]

But the fact that he called them Vedic resulted in all the Marxists in India and abroad jumping on him and letting out all the self-hatred onto him. This is their response.

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Publication Date: December 5, 2006
Authors: Dr. W. B. Vasantha Kandasamy, Prof. Florentin Smarandache (considered by some a crackpot)
Vedic Mathematics: Vedic or Mathematics: A Fuzzy and NeutrosophicAnalysis[Available ]

The book talks about others, who have similarly dissed 'Vedic Mathematics' book in a similar tone. If one reads the Preface and the beginning of the first two chapters, one would become familiar with the language they use to tarnish Hindus.

Then there were articles from S.G. Dani which appeared in Frontline, as per the book mentioned above (Oct. 22, 1993; Nov 5, 1993) which attacked the book "Vedic Mathematics". The archives of Frontline don't go that back, only till 1997.

However here is another recent article in the Hindu

Published on Dec 26, 2011
By S.G. Dani
Professor, School of Mathematics, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai
Understanding Ancient Indian Mathematics: Hindu
Quite often I find that conversations, with people from various walks of life, on ancient Indian mathematics slide to “Vedic mathematics” of the “16 sutras” fame, which is supposed to endow one with magical powers of calculation. Actually, the “16 sutras” were introduced by Bharati Krishna Tirthaji, who was the Sankaracharya of Puri from 1925 until he passed away in 1960, associating with them procedures for certain arithmetical or algebraic computations. Thus, this so-called “Vedic mathematics (VM)” is essentially a 20th century phenomenon.

Neither the “sutras” nor the procedures that they are supposed to yield, or correspond to, have anything to do with either the Vedas, or even with any post-Vedic mathematical tradition of yore in India. The image that it may conjure up of ancient rishis engaged in such arithmetical exercises as are taught to the children in the name of VM, and representing the solutions through word-strings of a few words in modern styled Sanskrit, with hardly any sentence structure or grammar, is just too far from the realm of the plausible. It would have amounted to a joke, but for the aura it has acquired on account of various factors, including the general ignorance about the knowledge in ancient times. It is a pity that a long tradition of over 3,000 years of learning and pursuit of mathematical ideas has come to be perceived by a large section of the populace through the prism of something so mundane and so lacking in substance from a mathematical point of view, apart from not being genuine.

Tall claims

The colossal neglect involved is not for want of pride about the achievements of our ancients; on the contrary, there is a lot of writing on the topic, popular as well as technical, that is full of unsubstantiated claims conveying an almost supreme knowledge our forefathers are supposed to have possessed. But there is very little understanding or appreciation, on an intellectual plane, of the specics of their knowledge or achievements in real terms.

In the colonial era this variety of discourse emerged as an antithesis to the bias that was manifest in the works of some Western scholars. Due to the urgency to respond to the adverse propaganda on the one hand and the lack of resources in addressing the issues at a more profound level on the other, recourse was often taken to short-cuts, which involved more assertiveness than substance. There were indeed some Indian scholars, like Sudhakar Dvivedi, who adhered to a more intellectual approach, but they were a minority. Unfortunately, the old discourse has continued long after the colonial context is well past, and long after the world community has begun to view the Indian achievements with considerable objective curiosity and interest. It is high time that we switch to a mode betting a sovereign and intellectually self-reliant society, focussing on an objective study and critical assessment, without the reference frame of “what they say” and how “we must assert ourselves.”

Ancient India has indeed contributed a great deal to the world's mathematical heritage. The country also witnessed steady mathematical developments over most part of the last 3,000 years, throwing up many interesting mathematical ideas well ahead of their appearance elsewhere in the world, though at times they lagged behind, especially in the recent centuries. Here are some episodes from the fascinating story that forms a rich fabric of the sustained intellectual endeavour.
The decimal place value system of writing numbers, together with the use of ‘0,' is known to have blossomed in India in the early centuries AD, and spread to the West through the intermediacy of the Persians and the Arabs. There were actually precursors to the system, and various components of it are found in other ancient cultures such as the Babylonian, Chinese, and Mayan.
It is well-known that Geometry was pursued in India in the context of construction of vedis for the yajnas of the Vedic period. The Sulvasutras contain elaborate descriptions of construction of vedis and enunciate various geometric principles. These were composed in the 1rst millennium BC, the earliest Baudhayana Sulvasutra dating back to about 800 BC. Sulvasutra geometry did not go very far in comparison to the Euclidean geometry developed by the Greeks, who appeared on the scene a little later, in the seventh century BC. It was, however, an important stage of development in India too {And there he gives a carrot}.
Basically he has written an article which is supposed to make a few secular Indians proud of the achievements of 'ancient' Indians but in substance he is negating the whole antiquity, and giving the others Greeks, Babylonians, Chinese, Mayans, etc. preeminence either as precursors or as more evolved.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Reference site

Sanskrit Web
Sri Aurobindo Kapali Sastry Institute of Vedic Culture (SAKSI)

One can access the Vedas there including Rig Veda. There are also other material available there for reading as well as buying.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Publication Date: January 30, 2008
Author: Vasant S. Sardesai
Amartya Sen's Hindu Bash [Buy]

Table of Contents
Chap 7. Aryan Invasion of Indian Reconsidered
Chap 8. Paradoxes of Aryan Invasion Theory Considered
Chap 9. The Reasons for Inventing the Theory
Chap 10. The Reason for Rejecting the Theory
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Published 1978
By Abraham Seidenberg
The Origin of Mathematics (pages 301-342)
Comparison of Greek and Vedic mathematics. VAN DER WAERDEN'S arguments are so cogent and so clearly set out that it is hard to believe that they do not contain the truth. Moreover I myself feel that all of his comparisons are just and that, in detail, he is 100% or nearly 100% right. Yet I propose to show that his theses (and NEUGEBAUER'S) cannot be maintained in their present form.

The main fault in VAN DER WAERDEN'S analysis, as I see it, is that at all vital points he takes into account only Old-Babylonia and Greece: if one includes the Vedic mathematics, one will get quite a different perspective on ancient mathematics.

The main issue is the origin of geometric algebra. The Śulvasūtras have geometric algebra, and I will first show that Greece and India have a common heritage that cannot have derived from Old-Babylonia, i.e., the Old-Babylonia of about 1700 B.C. as portrayed in Science Awakening
Conclusion: Either the geometric algebra of Greece came from India or that of India came from Greece or both came from a third source different from Old-Babylonia of 1700 B.C.
There are several grounds on which the second of these alternatives has to be eliminated.
A comparison of Pythagorean and Vedic mathematics together with some chronological considerations showed that the current view on the the generation of geometric algebra is not tenable. A common source for the Pythagorean and Vedic mathematics is to be sought either in the Vedic mathematics or in an older mathematics very much like it. The view that Vedic mathematics is a derivative of Old-Babylonian having been rejected, a common source for these mathematics, different from Old-Babylonia of 1700 B.C., was indicated. Thus what are regarded as the two main sources of Western mathematics, namely Pythagorean mathematics and Old-Babylonian mathematics, both flow from a still older source.

What was this older, common source like? I think its mathematics was very much like what we see in the Śulvasūtras. In the first place, it was associated with ritual. So Second, there was no dichotomy between number and magnitude:
This is AIT-Nazi Weasel/Witz-Hell's response to it.
§31. Geometry: Zulba sUtras.

The case of the geometry of the late Vedic zulba sUtras is of a similar nature. The advocates of the autochthonous theory maintain, with A. Seidenberg (1962, 1978, 1983),[N.223] that the geometry of the fire altars in the zatapatha brAhmaNa and some earlier (translated) texts such as taittirIya saMhitA, precedes the early geometry of Greece and Mesopotamia, and that it can be dated prior to 1700 BCE (cf. Elst 1999: 99).

Seidenberg has reached this conclusion by a comparison of the geometry of the Pythagoreans with that of the Vedic texts and some Babylonian sources. The latter have the full system in place at that early date, but their prehistory is not visible in existent Mesopotamian sources. Due to some differences in the three systems (such as algebraic vs. geometric procedures), Seidenberg (1983: 121) excludes mutual borrowing. Rather, he assumes a common source of the three systems that is older than 1700 BCE, and then tries to find echoes of it in pre-brAhmaNa texts, even at RV 1.67.10, etc. (which is much too vague about the building of fire altars to allow proof), all without the use of bricks. Staal (1999) has recently expanded on this problem, using my discussion of the common, non-Indo-Iranian words for 'brick' in Avestan, Old Persian and Vedic (from *is't-) and has assumed that the common source may well have been in the BMAC area (see §22) .

Be that as it may, it is not a priori necessary that the similarities and identities in mathematical procedure must go back to one common source. To paraphrase A. Michaels (1978: 52 sqq., cf. 1983), who has carried out an in-depth study of the zulba sUtras and their geometry: Vedic sacred geometry is autochthonous, and analogies between various cultures are not enough to prove actual historical exchange between them. The burden of proof always is with the one who proposes such an exchange. (This has not been supplied, pace Elst 1999: 99 sq.). In addition, Michaels distinguishes between sacred geometry in general and its form transmitted in the zulba sUtras. This is not always distinguished well (also not by Seidenberg), especially when one simply identifies the theoretical knowledge of the zulba sUtras with the more empirical knowledge and practice of the brAhmaNas and zrauta sUtras. However, it is likely that the Zzulba sUtras as such originated at the same time as the elaborate description of the ritual and that these texts were all integral parts of the ritual sUtras (kalpasUtra).

Michaels goes on to show (1978: 139 sq.) that the magical ideas of Vedic ritual, together with certain practical (artisan's) faculties, lead to the specific form of Vedic sacred geometry, which is basically a logic-free, elementary geometry. However, its various pre-scientific practices, or schemes of action, were transformed into general and theoretical sentences. These could, in turn, always be checked for truth and could be proved by the various practical schemes of action that were used in Vedic ritual with its pre-scientific norms of identity. Michaels also stresses that the connection between magical ideas and artisan's practice was from the beginning only accessible to a small circle of specialists, the ones knowledgeable in "measuring art"; its influence therefore is only visible insofar as it leads to a specialization of a portion of the complete Vedic ritual, again reserved for specialists.

While it has been quite clear for more than a hundred years that these sUtra texts contain the knowledge of basic geometry (Seidenberg 1983, Michaels 1978), including Pythagoras' theorem, it is now claimed that altar constructions were used to represent astronomical knowledge (Kak 1994) in the RV. However, even the post-Rgvedic texts say only that the three ritual fires represent the earth, sun and moon, and that the offering priests walk about in space. The complicated post-Rgvedic brick pilings on the mahAvedi represent a bird (zyena) that will take the sponsor of the ritual to heaven (e.g., the year as eagle ZB 12.2.3.7). There is no indication of any typical brAhmaNa style speculation that goes beyond an identification of the sponsor of the ritual with the creator god prajApati and the year (with its 360(!) days, 10,800 muhUrta, at ZB 12.3.2.5; zAGkhAyana AraNyaka 7.20, etc. (cf. §22, 26). Complicated astronomy is absent.

If there is any surprising factor here, it is the ability of the Vedic priests to work with such large numbers while they belonged to a civilization that did not use the script or written numbers (though the priests occasionally use twigs to represent very complicated schemes, such as the order of certain repetitions of sAmans). However, the piling of fire altars made of thousand(s) of bricks belongs to the post-Rgvedic period (pace Seidenberg 1983: 123-4), and even then, occurs only in comparatively late YV material, as has been pointed out above: the cayana is much later than the soma and other rituals of the YV saMhitAs; it can at best be dated to the beginning of the iron age (if we take tura kAvaSeya as one of its originators, see Proferes 1999).

If there indeed is any older, local tradition is hidden behind all of this, it may go back local, to non-Vedic (Indus?) sources. But that remains, for the time being, pure speculation.
Here Witzel takes the line "Oh no-no-no! Greeks have nothing common with Indians in Mathematics." in order to preclude the possibility that it comes out that the oh-so-famour Greek logic and sciences and everything is based on Indian Mathematics.

Here is some critique of this position by Fritz Staal

In any case, they all have a major difficulty accepting Indian origins of mathematics. Either they will say,
  • it (maths, geometric algebra) has a common origin, and even though all indications are that India was the origin, they will not spell it out, or
  • it has no common origin, and both Greek and Vedic Mathematics developed independently, and thus Greeks did not take anything from Indians, or
  • it was developed through vigorous exchanges between various civilizations, and no one civilization (read India) can take credit for it.
Published April, 2002
By Amartya Kumar Datta
Mathematics in Ancient India
It is on the foundation formed by the blending of the two great mathematical cultures - the geometric and axiomatic tradition of the Greeks and the algebraic and computational tradition of the Indians
Even Datta sahib makes the error that Greeks were better at Geometry than Indians, but nevertheless a very good paper.

Published 2000
By David W. Henderson
Department of Mathematics, Cornell University, Ithaca, USA
Square roots in the Sulba Sutra
Geometry at Work: Papers in Applied Geometry (editor, C. A. Gorini), MAA Notes Number 53, pp. 39-45, 2000.
Several Sanskrit texts collectively called the Sulbasutra were written by the Vedic Hindus starting before 600 B.C. and are thought2 to be compilations of oral wisdom which may go back to 2000 B.C. These texts have prescriptions for building fire altars, or Agni. However, contained in the Sulbasutra are sections which constitute a geometry textbook detailing the geometry necessary for designing and constructing the altars. As far as I have been able to determine these are the oldest geometry (or even mathematics) textbooks in existence. It is apparently the oldest applied geometry text.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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There are many types of knowledge that India has imparted to the world in various fields - Medicine (Ayurveda), Fitness (Yoga), Cuisine, etc. and excelled in many more fields.

But IMO, four areas are considered so fundamental to the worth of a civilization, that the West just finds it very difficult in acknowledging this debt to India -
  • language,
  • religion-philosophy-mythology,
  • mathematics and
  • astronomy.
The day this is acknowledged, Western Civilization becomes simply an offshoot of Indian Civilization and its independent identity starts withering.

And then there are genes!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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I think of the four, religion developed first, then language, then mathematics and astronomy (may be simultaneously with religion). Of the four, fear of the unknown is the basic instinct for survival, so must have come first, with that a reverence for nature, language builds communities, communities are required for sharing, without sharing and caring, fear can't be mitigated, more over fear is the common theme, camaraderie in the event of a fearful event common to all like death brings people closer, and to express the feelings, one needs a language, a common language no matter how rudimentary. When you have natural elements favouring you like our India, a vertical, introspecting philosophy of common people must have resulted as opposed to horizontal philosophy of the goras who had elements of nature against them. The introspection is the seed of mathematics and astronomy. Geometry and numbers are basic mathematics, on which whole ancient thought processes rested. Zodiac signs, sacredness of certain figures, symmetry of circle, bringing beauty and harmony and later building of temples using fractals resulted. I think, it is my opinion that if it weren't for the geography of Indian subcontinent, this introspection wouldn't have be there. This very introspection took time to develop among the ancients of the west. One can also see from the present, once, the hunger is taken care off, once death is prolonged, once security is attained, science and mathematics accelerated. Unfortunately Indians got shackled by the goras and our beautiful minds couldnt take flight like in the past.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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mmm.. quite debatable. I would say language came first.

religion (as defined by western concepts is the last thing we would have got), when we were living pure to natural laws. any thing unknown and not documented could be considered myth, and directly put into religion bucket.

religion err ways of living our customs and dharma are itself evolutionary. But it stopped evolving some eons back, and hence stagnated thoughts about it being westernic religion arise.

imho, language should be first, then slowly based on karmic actions, dharmic principles were evolved, by way of filtering the falseness, and finding the truth.

while doing so, our pure science and astronomy were factored and practiced by ways of living as it would be impossible to document all these data. hence, we had clans .. people dedicated to remember things.. people dedicated to follow certain customs.. people dedicated to do astronomy .. medicine, ayurveda, yoga, etc.

evolving to the core natural principles.

all lost, and we stand naked now with a corrupted system and 1000 years of invasion, rape and plunder which is given more priority than returning back to natural evolution.
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Rudimentary religion is not full fledged the way we see now, ancient religion of any community must have been very simple. The fire God must be appeased else he will get the house on fire. The thunder God brings sound and lightening, and sometimes he can strike you dead. It can be surmised that the invention that food tastes good when cooked must have come when ancient man tasted the burnt flesh of some animal, and he learnt to make fire. He also must have literally played with fire and must have caused himself some injury or might have seen someone getting killed by fire. All this doesn't require communication. It is the fear, fear is the precursor of religion, the fear of death, fear of anything unknown drew man closer to God. For his religion of natural forces one doesn't need the ability to communicate....even elephants were found to touch and feel the remains of their dead kin and friends. They were found to recognize their dead, if you ask me, they have a 'feeling' of loss, for this no communication is necessary, even though I know elephants can communicate. Loss is personal, from loss is born pain and suffering, from pain and suffering is born the yearning to seek God.
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RajeshA ji, the surprising part about Jagadguru Shankaracharya Shri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja is that he himself claims before the sceptics that he found his leads in the Scriptures but they would not allow him his sovereignty. Anything that is not sanctioned by the Cabal has to be twisted! The problem for the cabal is that Jagadguru has no problem with working in such a manner, we as his readers and potential readers have no problem with Jagadguru's explanation, but the cabal feels like it has some god given right to a licence permit raj. If the cabal cannot figure it out for itself then to all rational mind it is their problem and they should deal with it on their own, whether they explain it with ‘fame’ or ‘cow upon cow’, they have to do their work instead of telling the Jagadguru what he should say or do.

I personally am a Mathematically challenged person, even so I bought the book for my children. I knew such books have a way of becoming durlabh. :)


Venu ji, why must any one emotion be the primary driver. Fear exists in every living being, not all begin to develop religion/rituals/meditation. That hidden Maslow is what the west would have you believe. Why must you give in so easy. And why must the assumed riches of the Bharatvarsha be the basis for the things as they are. Instead of speculating in such a manner why don’t you answer for yourself if you would be able to do any better if you give up all the comforts for a mosquito infested tropical forest. Venu ji all that work has more to do with being able to control the mind and use it like a tool. It hardly has anything to do with a comfortable existence. If comforts are really that important then every American should have been a great seer, these guys claim to have more more vitamins in their excreta then what most turd world countries have in their food. IMHO, you need to think again on the whys and wherefores of inspired action and inspired thought.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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duplicate post
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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I guess the question is not really in which order language, religion, astronomy, mathematics really came about. The issue is a much more, who had them first - Indics or Euros?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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also think about jealousy.. while in the western world, most religions (abrahmics) are guided by sole messiah. whereas, we have a setup that anyone can become a messiah, provided with the required attributes. that itself is scientific enough for them to consider, some how subdue so that they appear superior to indic thoughts, in every possible way.

--

I think we can find answers, if we don't consider script or text at all.. and then begin our research on sounds alone.
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ravi_g ji,

It is the AIT-Nazis, India-Blindness afflicted Academics, Hinduism-Digestors, etc. who are unwilling to acknowledge their sources of inspiration and understanding. Jagadguru was honest and straightforward and acknowledged that the Vedas were his inspiration, so he called his book "Vedic Mathematics"!
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ravi garu, I can be wrong, but we are human and are sentient. Being sentient means we not only respond to stimuli, we react, we reason, when we reason it has brings about psychological response. This psychological reason for response is the driver for actions, which we also call perhaps intention. One can't go and feel connected to an abstract concept like God, unless there is a need. The need is easement of pain. I am not saying that comforts are driver for philosophical development. Comforts bring in leisure to think. Before that to happen, pain and suffering are drivers to lead man in that direction. Not that pain and suffering existed all the time in India, but they were there long back, eons back when man moved up the ladder of being an ape to being sentient and once in Indian subcontinent, the geography gave him the comfort, it gave him abundance of food. This comfort gave him the leisure to think in abstract thought process about self, about God even more because all his needs are met. Say you are placed in a cold place, what will be your life's objective? will that be of abstract thought or will that be of taking care of the cold?
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venug ji, the whole idea that I could gather in the promotion of the apparent stranger-ness of oneself, is to get rid of the inertia, to not wait for the abundance, to not wait for the comforts and instead to just manage with whatever is available. Basically make peace.

And you are assuming that cold or hot deserts are tougher places to live in and so people their would not be interested in anything worthwhile. Well everybody claims that Arabs were great learners and great contributors too. Tibetans carry out their meditation in the coldest of all places.
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ravi garu, no doubt about contributions, the contributions are materialistic in nature...born of the need to be comfortable with nature...sure there will be inventions. Why is that two important, ancient and profound philosophies and related sciences developed in India only? the abstractness of thought even left early German thinkers like Kant in praise of Indian philosophers. Why is that no Rg Veda was composed in Europe?, the reason is introspective thought processes, you become pensive, write novels, poems, other literature when you stomach is full, when you in leisure, nothing to be scared of, don't have to worry about cutting wood for coming winter, nothing to worry about how to secure food....nothing to worry about marauding barbarians.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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because, the "aryans" found the place nice, rich, and cozy to establish an empire?

they came all the way from colder regions and camped here, on the banks established real estates and bought resorts... wrote the vedas, and then took it back to Europe.

:mrgreen:
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In 'Being Different', Rajiv Malhotra talks about the forest and the desert religions. In both places ideas can take root. Only they are different!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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coming to think of it, any reference to then weather conditions mentioned in our texts?
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Published on Jul 07, 2010
By David Frawley, Dr. Navratna S. Rajaram
Flora, Fauna and Climate in the Vedas
The climate mentioned in the Rig Veda reflects a great monsoon, with rain deities like Indra and the Maruts taking prominent roles in the Rig Veda hymns.
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The main difference I think is our thought processes were abstract, born out of introspection, instead of thinking how I am going to be comfortable, the questions ancient Indians dealt with was who am I?, why am I? simple questions but can lead to the answers of the whole universe. Hence the development of astronomy, mathematics. A religion of forest or desert will have Gods of serpents, of poisons and great fierce creature and that of water and rain, again more to do with comforts for man of desert and forest.
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venug ji,

Rajiv Malhotra refers to Hinduism as the religion of the 'forest'! It has a somewhat deeper meaning, than thinking about mosquitos and snakes.
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By David Frawley (Pandit Vamadeva)
An Ecological View of Ancient India
Kaushal
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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I am happy that BRFites are rediscovering all the facts that i uncovered a decade ago. if ever there were a bunch of bright people , BRF isa good example. Self preservation is a wonderful incentive to sharpen the intellect. When Indians realize that there is not much scope for error when you are engaged in battle with the enemy,which is why BRFites have such a great respect for the fighting men of the Indian army. They are giving us the time to reorganize and become a fighting fit nation. Let us not squander the opportunity that this affords us by indulging in pettiness and squables.
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Kaushal ji, could you also let us know the title of your book? I used to follow your writings long time back when there was an active AIT thread on BRF...thanks so much for the gyan.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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At the height of the last ice age, at around 18,000 years before the present, the global sea level was 120 to 130 meters (400 ft.) lower than today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_regression

It does take quite a bit of Indra works to get the oceans raise up to the current levels.
Continental rise, slope, and shelf

The continental shelf extends to an average width of about 75 miles (120 km) in the Indian Ocean, with its widest points (190 miles [300 km]) off Mumbai (Bombay) and northwestern Australia. The island shelves are only about 1,000 feet (300 metres) wide. The shelf break is at a depth of about 460 feet (140 metres). Submarine canyons indent the steep slope below the break. The Ganges (Ganga), Indus, and Zambezi rivers have all carved particularly large canyons. Their sediment loads extend far beyond the shelf, form the rises at the foot of the

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... -and-shelf

maps well to melt down, and slow climatic formation to the now established monsoons. it must have been heavy monsoons then since, a large body of water got melted, and get cycled... hurricanes and cyclones would have been deadly.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Published Madras, 1926
Author: I.J.S. Taraporewala
The Religion of Zarathushtra

Taraporewala is also buying into the AIT-Nazi theory that we all came from Central Asia, but that was the belief of the times and even today.
The Aryans (using the word in its narrower sense, as comprising the two peoples, the Indians and the Iranians, who called themselves by that proud name) had lived together for long ages in one land, had spoken one tongue and had followed one religion. Where that ancient Motherland of the Aryans was, we have now no means of determining, but it seems to have been a region far to the North, which, according to the Iranian tradition, was overwhelmed and destroyed by ice and snow. At a later period the two main stocks of these people migrated southwards, still keeping together, and after many generations of wandering, ultimately arrived in the neighbourhood of the high mountainous region which we know as the Pamir table-land today. They spread around from that region into the lower fertile and salubrious valleys of the south, west and east. The lands called by us Afghanistan and Bactria were the regions where the Aryans had long carried on their activities.
The Aryas ('the noble ones') are said in the Avesta to have had their original home in the fair land of Airyana-Vaeja (the Cradle-land of the Aryas), which had been 'the first among the lands' created by Mazda. It was at the centre of the Earth and in its very centre stood the mountain Hara-bareza ('Alborz'). This description closely corresponds with the Hindu description of 'the land of the Gods' with Mount Meru at its centre. It was far to the North, and a most remarkable point about this ancient home was that there 'the year seemed as a day'. The Hindus also say that a day of the Gods equals a year of us mortals. Both these branches of the Aryans divided the Universe into 'seven Regions', but we need not pause to inquire whether they represented climatic zones (as some scholars contend), or were geographical divisions, or had any other signification.
Interesting connections, but still very thin!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

venug wrote:Kaushal ji, could you also let us know the title of your book? I used to follow your writings long time back when there was an active AIT thread on BRF...thanks so much for the gyan.
venug ji,

here is info on Kaushal ji's book!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Saik ji,

when we have our fleet of exploratory submarines and deep sea archaeology, we will be knowing much better how our history panned out.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajesh garu, thanks.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

I hope our dual use strategy aspects are heard in the right ears, RajeshA. It has dual benefits.. one is advancement of radar systems, and effective use for real purpose., while the other offshoot is augmenting our military systems.

who knows about the treasures lying beneath our ocean continental shelf.
ex: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA447502
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Online-Books

Image

Publication Date: 1872
Author: Albert Pike
Indo Aryan Deities And Worship As Contained In The Rig Veda

From the Preface
Nothing has ever so much interested me, as this endeavour to penetrate into the adyta of the ancient Aryan thought, to discover what things, principles or phenomena our remote ancestors worshipped as Gods, what Indra, Varuna, Mitra, Aryaman, the Acvins, Vayu, Vishnu, Savitri and the others really were, in the conception of the composers of the Vedic hymns. "I found the most profound philosophic or metaphysical ideas, which those of every philosophy and religion have merely developed; and that, so far from being Barbarians or Savages, the old Aryan herdsmen and husbandmen, in the Indus country under the Himalayan Mountains, on the rivers of Bactria, and long before, on the Scythic Steppes where they originated, were men of singularly clear and acute intellects, profound thought and an infinite reverence of the beings whom they worshipped.

The inquiry has opened to me an entirely new chapter of the history of human thought, and given me an infinitely higher conception of the Aryan intellect. I now see how, out of the primitive simplicity of a natural and reasonable religion, and of ideas simple and yet profoundly philosophical, there grew the most monstrous and debasing faiths, the most absurd and delirious fables, and the most abominable superstitions, the worship of animals, legends of the amours and adulteries of the Gods, conceptions of monstrous idols, the most incredible fables, the most irrational mysticism, and the Phallic and Lingam worship with its disgusting obscenities and Priapean abominations, as well as the incoherent notions of the Kabbalah and the vagaries of Gnosticism.

But I also see, the growing out of, or rather developing, the same ancient ideas, the doctrines of Plato and Philo which long ruled and in their turn became fruitful of the modern philosophies and psychology, of the doctrines of emanation and creation by the Word, the self-revealing, and manifestation fo the "Inconceivable Deity." {Jesus Christ}

The requital of my labour is already ample; and as to any notoriety that might come of publication, what is that worth to me who can have but little more to do with this world, and the evening of whose life has come?

But to anyone who may read this book, whether it be published or remain unpublished, I wish to offer a few words of explanation.

I am quite aware of my very imperfect qualifications as an interpreter of the antique hymns of the Veda, and how little it becomes me, knowing little of Sanskrit and less fo the Zend, to speak ex cathedrâ in regard to the meaning of the texts, either of the Veda or the Zend-Avesta, or to think that I can explain what scholars like Wilson, Müller and Muir are obliged to confess they do not understand. Of course I have fallen into many errors, and been unfortunage in my interpretations of many passages.
So if Aryans of India and Iran were so civilized does it give the Europeans too the possibility to redeem their 'Hyborian' past and think of themselves as civilized? Is that what they need?

Actually this preface really spells out what the AIT-Nazis are trying to appropriate, rob and digest.

The Aryan Gods - Indra, Varuna, Mitra, Aryaman, the Acvins, Vayu, Vishnu, Savitri, are the nice gods of the Aryans. They are Gods we Indians share with all other Indo-Europeans. They have a common origin. They do not belong to the Indians only. All that came later in Hinduism is abominable, because that is when the noble Aryans intermixed with the SDREs of the Indian Subcontinent and lost not just their skin color but became totally disgusting and started believing in idol-worship and animal-worship.

So AIT-Nazis have appropriated the Sanskrit language, the Rig-Veda, which has become their past and at the same time managed to demonize Indians.

In fact they have joined up Aryan heritage with Plato and Philo, Greek philosophy and then later on with Christ himself.

This is the thinking of a Free Mason in the late 19th century. One wonders what role they played in all this AIT bullshitting.

Do download the book and read it at your leisure.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

There is a Telugu saying:
mettaga unte mottali-anipisthundita -> translates to "if you are soft, people feeling like trashing you"

I guess this is what is happening, the more we fold hands and do 'yes sir', 'no sir' , 'thank you very much sir' to these buggers, the more they treat you like dirt. Simply ask them f themselves, as shiv ji and other gurus said, put forward our narrative, with 1+ billion people saying the same narrative, I dont see how these fools can usurp our history.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

actually its the non-vedic desert religions that have usurped the vedic roots of the europeans!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Kaushal »

The book i am talking about is my latest book , T
"The origins of astronomy, the calendar and time"
available at lulu.com, also available at amazon. but the lulu price is cheaper. do a google on my name; KosLa VEPA, YOU will get the full details.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem »

Kaushal wrote:The book i am talking about is my latest book , T
"The origins of astronomy, the calendar and time"
available at lulu.com, also available at amazon. but the lulu price is cheaper. do a google on my name; KosLa VEPA, YOU will get the full details.
Can i drop by next month to pick my free copy? :D
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

When did (date) they first formulated this AIT? who was the founding ait-nazzi father?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-an ... epage=true
Prof. Rangaraju said that among the discoveries were tools and microliths from 1500 BC to 1200 BC, 20 neolithic polished stone axes, stone pots, and iron antiquities, all of which indicated a continuous human settlement near the excavation site.

800 antiquities unearthed in Chikmagalur

The Satavahanas ruled the Deccan region and were followers of Buddhism - Satavahana period (1st century BC to 3rd century AD). The finds included, to a numismatist’s delight, Roman coins and coins from the Satavahana period.


roman traders turned later european looters.. first they came, and saw.. and then found wealth. looted off!.. and now they continue to loot the heritage.
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