Bharat Rakshak

Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
It is currently 24 Oct 2014 21:35

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 188 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 18:53 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 23 Jan 2008 11:19
Posts: 804
Atri wrote:
[..]

It was BT who put end to this nonsense by organizing Maha-Aarti on the same roads and at same time followed by blowing of Counches (Shankha-naad) followed by slogans of Har har mahadev. When this stupidity of appropriating roads and public places for offering namaz stopped, maha-aarti stopped too. This is as crystalline a psy-op as it can be. Be a bigger nuisance for the nuisance maker. This is not the highway, but when police and home-department and GOI are busy changing constitutions to accommodate medieval islamic law (Shah bano case) and doing zilch, what else people can do?

[..]


Awesome! May Maharashtra produce many more Balasaheb Thakres who have a Pan Indian outlook.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 19:09 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23198
Location: Embarrassed by fresh-off-the-boat Indians
prahaar wrote:
@Shiv, 1992-93.


Was this just before the 1993 bomb blasts? If it was, it then explains something that happened to me in 1993. I was flying to London from Mumbai in Feb 93 and I was somewhat surprised when a cop at the exit desk asked if was going to Pakistan and then referred to some "bhenchods" who need to go to Pakistan. Maybe he thought I was a Paki. I was a fresh returned RNRI at that time with a permanent permit to reside in the UK and did not understand the nuances and had no idea what might have been happening in Mumbai.

As a side story unrelated to later events our BAe 747 had a breakdown of 3 out of 4 generators over Karachi for which we returned to Mumbai, spent a few hours on board and we were then taken to hotels. Incidentally, I got a room in Sea Rock Hotel. I spent a few weeks in the UK and returned. Some months later were the 1993 bombs blasts - one of which was at the Sea Rock Hotel. I always heard that the blasts were revenge and never understood what was being avenged. Looks like Thackray could not stop that.

I have read that at street level, Shiv Sena could not really touch the Muslim hit men who were loose so a lot of Hindutva was pure political showmanship. Even Mumbai politicos and business people needed them. Everyone in Mumbai feared the Shiv Sena - even today's newspaper talks of Mumbai shutting down after he died. This then is the "great nationalist patriot" who must be born again.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 19:23 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23198
Location: Embarrassed by fresh-off-the-boat Indians
peter wrote:

Are you familiar with the history of India during the Mughal time? Do you know how many Hindus were made Muslim and why do want Hindus to be inclusive?


I know that Aurangzeb was a good king who built temples.

Ask a stupid question and invite a stupid answer


Last edited by shiv on 18 Nov 2012 19:39, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 19:26 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30
Posts: 7265
य एनं वेत्ति हन्तारं यश्चैनं मन्यते हतम् | उभौ तौ न विजानीतो नायं हन्ति न हन्यते ||२- १९|| न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन् नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः | अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे ||२- २०|| वेदाविनाशिनं नित्यं य एनमजमव्ययम् | कथं स पुरुषः पार्थ कं घातयति हन्ति कम् ||२- २१|| वासांसि जीर्णानि यथा विहाय नवानि गृह्णाति नरोऽपराणि | तथा शरीराणि विहाय जीर्णा- न्यन्यानि संयाति नवानि देही ||२- २२|| नैनं छिन्दन्ति शस्त्राणि नैनं दहति पावकः | न चैनं क्लेदयन्त्यापो न शोषयति मारुतः ||२- २३|| अच्छेद्योऽयमदाह्योऽयमक्लेद्योऽशोष्य एव च | नित्यः सर्वगतः स्थाणुरचलोऽयं सनातनः ||२- २४|| अव्यक्तोऽयमचिन्त्योऽयमविकार्योऽयमुच्यते | तस्मादेवं विदित्वैनं नानुशोचितुमर्हसि ||२- २५|| अथ चैनं नित्यजातं नित्यं वा मन्यसे मृतम् | तथापि त्वं महाबाहो नैवं शोचितुमर्हसि ||२- २६|| जातस्य हि ध्रुवो मृत्युर्ध्रुवं जन्म मृतस्य च | तस्मादपरिहार्येऽर्थे न त्वं शोचितुमर्हसि ||२- २७|| अव्यक्तादीनि भूतानि व्यक्तमध्यानि भारत | अव्यक्तनिधनान्येव तत्र का परिदेवना ||२- २८||


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 19:44 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Posts: 12494
Location: In a sad place
A funeral fit for the king. Truly he was king of peoples heart.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 19:55 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Posts: 1889
Location: Maintaining Safe Distance from Uttar Pradesh
shiv wrote:
prahaar wrote:
@Shiv, 1992-93.


Was this just before the 1993 bomb blasts? If it was, it then explains something that happened to me in 1993. I was flying to London from Mumbai in Feb 93 and I was somewhat surprised when a cop at the exit desk asked if was going to Pakistan and then referred to some "bhenchods" who need to go to Pakistan. Maybe he thought I was a Paki. I was a fresh returned RNRI at that time with a permanent permit to reside in the UK and did not understand the nuances and had no idea what might have been happening in Mumbai.

As a side story unrelated to later events our BAe 747 had a breakdown of 3 out of 4 generators over Karachi for which we returned to Mumbai, spent a few hours on board and we were then taken to hotels. Incidentally, I got a room in Sea Rock Hotel. I spent a few weeks in the UK and returned. Some months later were the 1993 bombs blasts - one of which was at the Sea Rock Hotel. I always heard that the blasts were revenge and never understood what was being avenged. Looks like Thackray could not stop that.

I have read that at street level, Shiv Sena could not really touch the Muslim hit men who were loose so a lot of Hindutva was pure political showmanship. Even Mumbai politicos and business people needed them. Everyone in Mumbai feared the Shiv Sena - even today's newspaper talks of Mumbai shutting down after he died. This then is the "great nationalist patriot" who must be born again.


Sorry,but your piss-chology is more piss than chology shiv saar. It's not Thackrey's job or SS' to stop 93 blasts, not that they could even if they wanted to. Their job was to put some raw street muscle on the side of Hindus, they did that perfectly alright. Muslims knew they could not/cannot kill & rape Hindus at their will, like they can in Old city of Hyderabad or SP's UP. For that they did their job. For bumping off Muslim hit men, there are other people like Chhota Rajan.

Both CR and BT have their role cut out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:04 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30
Posts: 7265
1000 years of darkness has left deep scar on Hindu psyche and such leaders would continue to rise in response to any continuity , perceived or real, of the same darkness.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:07 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Oct 2010 02:54
Posts: 4974
Location: Narendra Modi for Pradhan Mantri!
Yes, he might have overreached sometimes but I am told by friends and relatives from Mumbai that he put the Muslims in their place. "bahut hi uchal rahe the" and he showed them that Hindus can hit back. Mumbai has not had riots in 2 decades, maybe because of the 1993 violence. The Islamic nature inherited from barbaric Arabs is that you have to show them that you can hit back with double force, that is when they will respect you. Negotiation is a sign of weakness. We see that behavior in Pakis today.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:08 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07
Posts: 3987
shiv wrote:
prahaar wrote:
@Shiv, 1992-93.


Was this just before the 1993 bomb blasts? If it was, it then explains something that happened to me in 1993. I was flying to London from Mumbai in Feb 93 and I was somewhat surprised when a cop at the exit desk asked if was going to Pakistan and then referred to some "bhenchods" who need to go to Pakistan. Maybe he thought I was a Paki. I was a fresh returned RNRI at that time with a permanent permit to reside in the UK and did not understand the nuances and had no idea what might have been happening in Mumbai.

As a side story unrelated to later events our BAe 747 had a breakdown of 3 out of 4 generators over Karachi for which we returned to Mumbai, spent a few hours on board and we were then taken to hotels. Incidentally, I got a room in Sea Rock Hotel. I spent a few weeks in the UK and returned. Some months later were the 1993 bombs blasts - one of which was at the Sea Rock Hotel. I always heard that the blasts were revenge and never understood what was being avenged. Looks like Thackray could not stop that.


Shiv ji,

brief history of events in in late 80s and early 90s as follows..

1. It started with Shah Bano case verdict which was subverted by a majority government to appease muslim sentiments. The Ram janma Bhumi movement started again after this event.

2. Earlier, Mumbai's underworld was split into Varadarajan Mudaliar faction and Haji Mastan faction which was later passed on to Dawood.

3. One of the CM's of MH in early 80s, Abdul Rehman Antulay, who was a convicted extortionist from same region as Dawood (Konkani Muslims of Raigad, converted by Siddis of Murud Janjira, You may wiki about Siddi clan). It does not take Sherlock to guess who was providing muscle to A R Antulay for his activities. In turn, Haji Mastan group got a shot in arm

4. MH-INC was in shambles when Sharad Pawar rebelled against Rajiv and formed a separate party named Progessevist democratic party (Purogaami Lokshahi dal).

5. Janta party was split and BJP was established. Pramod Mahajan engineered coalition of Shivsena an BJP in 1984-85 when they went on to win Municipal corporation elections of Mumbai and Thane.

6. After this Sena-BJP coalition, INC government targeted Varadarajan Mudaliar gang and finished him off from Mumbai. ACP. Y.C.Pawar (a celebrated personality in MH) was instrumental in this. Meanwhile, they left Haji-Dawood gang intact. Varadabhai was supposedly on very good terms with Balasaheb (Varadabhai was a madrasi Yandu-gundu, Lungiwala - All the epithets conferred to South Indians by BT).

7. RJB movement was picking steam. So were activities of dawood and his money laundering in real estate, smuggling and bollywood. The religious zeal of Muslims in Mumbai and MH was systematically being fanned by sources which elude me. Mumbai is cash cow and one who controls Mumbai gets access to her riches.

8. For whatever it is worth, Varadarajan was instrumental in protecting Hindus, celebrating their festivals etc and in turn indirectly helping them to organize. When this cover was taken away, there was no means to organize Hindus. It is here (around 1986) that Balasaheb overtly stepped in on Hindutva issue. As I said earlier and on other occasions, all the Maharashtrian leaders use the phrase "Maharashtra Dharma" which was coined by Samartha Ramdas Swami while addressing Shivaji. This Maharashtra dharma is nothing else but Sanatana dharma OR as it is called, Hindutva. BT had retaliated in 1970s against Muslim miscreants of Bhivandi out of this Maharashtra dharma, when there was no overt affiliation for the Hindutva issue.

9. Around this time, (after 1987) the street namaz started. It was symbolism of triumph that Mullahs had scored on Indian union (on Shah bano case). The slogans of "has ke liya pakistan, lad ke lenge Hindustan" were openly chanted during these namaz offerings. What was police doing? Nothing...This is the time when Maha Aarti started on street. It grew in fervor in 1989-90-91 as RJB movement increased its tempo.

10. In December 1992, Babri was demolished and small Ram Mandir built at the site. Series of targeted violent attacks started on Hindus from Muslim miscreants. They desecrated a Ganesha temple in nirmal nagar (Ironic, they chose to "Begin" their activity by destroying ganesha temple - A god of auspicious beginnings) and violent attacks on Hindus started.

11. Violence continued from 7th to 15th of december and was brought under control when police stepped in. Media was criticizing police for excessive use of fire power since most of the people shot by police where Muslims.

12. Things were relatively quite until 7th and 8th of January when few mill workers were burnt alive followed by massacre of one entire Hindu family in Radhabai Chawl. Meanwhile, BT wrote his most famous editorial "Hinduni aakramak vhayla pahije (Hindus should become aggressive)". The retaliation from Hindus started on 8th of January after Radhabai Chawl Masscre and continued until 20th. Army was deployed on 11th of January after which situation was brought under control.

13. It is on 9th of January when Tiger Memon's warehouse was burnt by Shivsainiks. He later escaped to Pakistan along with many others from Mumbai and they carried out March 1993 Mumbai bombings in retaliation. This was carried out by ISI and Dawood.

14. There were many suspicious types trying to "visit" pakistan in Jan-Feb of 1993. This is the backdrop of your "encounter" with the cop on exit desk. Cops were under immense pressure from 1987 to ignore and not to act. Finishing off Varadarajan, while letting Haji-Dawood intact was stupidest (or deliberate, I do not know) move of state and central MHA. Same happened post 1993 bomb blasts. The gangs of Pujari, Amar Naik (although he was supported by SS) and then Chhota Rajan were finished off by Mumbai Police. Dawood was left untouched. If Varadarajan were present in his full strength, OR if Haji-Dawood too were finished off with same efficiency by the establishment, things would not have gone so far.

15. BT and SS were instrumental in protecting Hindus in earlier phase of riots, and also in "counter attack" in January phase of riots. You can find all these details in Sri Krishna commission report.

16. The rise of BT is on interesting cusp. One of biggest funeral-procession which Mumbai witnessed before today (about 4 million people came today) was funeral of Veer Savarkar in 1966. Savarkar's death was a setback to Hindutva movement. Immediately after Savarkar's departure, Pandit Deendayal Upadhyay died in 1968. This is the backdrop of emergence of Shivsena. They spoke of same issues but on local level. The title of "Hindu Hruday Samrat" first belonged to Savarkar. It was given to BT by the people..

17. Now that the cycle has completed one more turn, BT replaced Savarkar in Western MH and kept the flame burning. Who will replace BT - This is the million dollar question.


Last edited by Atri on 18 Nov 2012 20:22, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:19 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27
Posts: 9290
Atri saar: Thanks for your posts in this thread. Much appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:48 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
Dawood had MHA-congress in his pockets. He was allowed to escape and will never be caught for the very same reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:50 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07
Posts: 3987
You are welcome Abhishek ji..

One sentence of BT which I heard personally when I was a kid made a mark for ever - गांडू ची औलाद बनून जगू नका - Do not live like a brat of a Gaandu..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:52 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
In 1995 election BT famously quoted "If Congress has Dawood, we have Arun Gawli"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 20:58 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Posts: 12494
Location: In a sad place
Sadhu Atri-ji, Sadhu.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:00 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
I still remember when the news of Radhabai chawl massacre broke our local SS shakha-pramukh (branch-head) gathered volunteers to patrol the entire area. Controlling the situation was totally beyond mumbai police capacity. It was only SS that time who volunteered. My neighbor was a hard core congress activist....joined SS after the riots.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:01 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07
Posts: 3987
meanwhile the chutiyas of DDM excel themselves..

Image

:evil: :evil:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:03 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Posts: 12494
Location: In a sad place
Atri wrote:
meanwhile the chutiyas of DDM excel themselves..

:evil: :evil:


This one should really get a award.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:24 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
If one really knows Balasaheb, he stood first and foremost for the people of Maharashtra. His views on Hindutva received publicity AFTER his alliance with the BJP was formalized i.e. he paid lip service to his political partner's pet project but in his heart of hearts he never cared much for the Hindutva idealogy. For decades after independence political power in Maharashtra was with the Maratha sugar lobby from Western Maharashtra. The tragedy for Maharashtra is that a partnership never formally took root between the Shiv Sena and the Maratha lobby, they had a lot in common. The Maratha lobby has never got along with the leaders of the Hindutva movement primarily because of the Brahmin-Maratha divide in Maharashtra i.e. the Marathas see the Hindutva movement as controlled by Brahmins.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:28 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 11 Aug 2007 17:20
Posts: 4486
Location: Pakistan is a Shouchalaya
Quote:
but in his heart of hearts he never cared much for the Hindutva idealogy.


How can you be so sure sirji if you dont mind me asking


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:31 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
Mahendra wrote:
Quote:
but in his heart of hearts he never cared much for the Hindutva idealogy.


How can you be so sure sirji if you dont mind me asking


If you grew up in a Marathi speaking environment in Western Maharashtra in certain circles it was inevitable that one would bump into Shiv Sainiks...senior ones, who knew Balasaheb at a personal level...just as you would know someone who knew senior Maratha politicians...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:35 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Oct 2010 02:54
Posts: 4974
Location: Narendra Modi for Pradhan Mantri!
Atri wrote:
meanwhile the chutiyas of DDM excel themselves..

Image

:evil: :evil:


What's the last word? Is it "maujood" (present)?? :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:38 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07
Posts: 3987
ldev wrote:
Mahendra wrote:

How can you be so sure sirji if you dont mind me asking


If you grew up in a Marathi speaking environment in Western Maharashtra in certain circles it was inevitable that one would bump into Shiv Sainiks...senior ones, who knew Balasaheb at a personal level...just as you would know someone who knew senior Maratha politicians...


And you grew up in such "environment" and this is the conclusion you arrived upon, hain ji?

nice...

@KJoishy ji

Yes.. the caption reads - "Bal Thakre present in Bal Thakre's funeral"..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:45 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
No need to get defensive. Long before Hindutva became fashionable, Balasaheb stood for Maharashtra and Maharashtrians.. I am talking about the 1970s. You know that Balasaheb had more in common with the Maratha Lobby than with the BJP. But the tragedy is that in his early years, the Maratha lobby never thought he would get the power that he eventually did and did not take him seriously. Even subsequently, they felt that his influence was confined to Mumbai and that it would not really stop them from taking control at Mantralay.


Last edited by ldev on 18 Nov 2012 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:45 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
Maratha Brahmin divide in Maharashtra! Someone needs to learn the history of Peshawa in Maharashtra.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:46 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Posts: 1916
Location: Aapke paas paisa hain but mere pass class hain
Which news channel is it ???


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:46 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
In 1970 SS got nearly banned due to it's alleged role in Bhiwandi riots.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:47 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
abhijitm wrote:
Maratha Brahmin divide in Maharashtra! Someone needs to learn the history of Peshawa in Maharashtra.


Yes and someone needs to live in Western Maharashtra among Marathas for the last few decades and see the reality on the ground... and not read theory in some history book without ever having lived in the area.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:49 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
ldev wrote:
Yes and someone needs to live in Western Maharashtra among Marathas for the last few decades and see the reality on the ground... and not read theory in some history book without ever having lived in the area.

What made you make that assumption?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:52 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
abhijitm wrote:
ldev wrote:
Yes and someone needs to live in Western Maharashtra among Marathas for the last few decades and see the reality on the ground... and not read theory in some history book without ever having lived in the area.

What made you make that assumption?


Go to Kolhapur, Satara, Karad...Sholapur....talk to the Maratha lobby...who have controlled Mantralay for decades...ask them what they think...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:53 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23198
Location: Embarrassed by fresh-off-the-boat Indians
Atri wrote:
14. There were many suspicious types trying to "visit" pakistan in Jan-Feb of 1993. This is the backdrop of your "encounter" with the cop on exit desk. Cops were under immense pressure from 1987 to ignore and not to act. Finishing off Varadarajan, while letting Haji-Dawood intact was stupidest (or deliberate, I do not know) move of state and central MHA. Same happened post 1993 bomb blasts. The gangs of Pujari, Amar Naik (although he was supported by SS) and then Chhota Rajan were finished off by Mumbai Police. Dawood was left untouched. If Varadarajan were present in his full strength, OR if Haji-Dawood too were finished off with same efficiency by the establishment, things would not have gone so far.

15. BT and SS were instrumental in protecting Hindus in earlier phase of riots, and also in "counter attack" in January phase of riots. You can find all these details in Sri Krishna commission report.

16. The rise of BT is on interesting cusp. One of biggest funeral-procession which Mumbai witnessed before today (about 4 million people came today) was funeral of Veer Savarkar in 1966. Savarkar's death was a setback to Hindutva movement. Immediately after Savarkar's departure, Pandit Deendayal Upadhyay died in 1968. This is the backdrop of emergence of Shivsena. They spoke of same issues but on local level. The title of "Hindu Hruday Samrat" first belonged to Savarkar. It was given to BT by the people..

17. Now that the cycle has completed one more turn, BT replaced Savarkar in Western MH and kept the flame burning. Who will replace BT - This is the million dollar question.


Thanks for this explanation and I can see why I have had such a different view of Bal Thackray.

He was a Mumbai leader and looked after the interests of Hindus and Maharashtrians of Mumbai. He was never a leader of national caliber because his politics was rife with divisiveness derived from issues unique to Mumbai. Those who saw his divisiveness are different from those who benefited from his street strength in Mumbai.

In a way Bal Thackray was a partial political answer to the anarchy that Mumbai was and probably still is. Even today money talks louder in Mumbai than Hindutva or regionalism. It would be interesting to see if Mumbai can ever be regained by Hindu Maharashtrians. I suspect that it will be good both for Mumbai and Maharashtrians if that happens but it will come at a price. Money will flee Mumbai and settle somewhere else.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:55 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
and they told you this?
Quote:
he paid lip service to his political partner's pet project but in his heart of hearts he never cared much for the Hindutva idealogy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 21:59 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
abhijitm wrote:
and they told you this?
Quote:
he paid lip service to his political partner's pet project but in his heart of hearts he never cared much for the Hindutva idealogy


Now that he is nore more, it is understandable that the Hindutva movement among others will want to milk his name/reputation for their own political ends...so I dont blame you or anyone else for making the man into something that he was not....Anyway RIP.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:00 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 754
shiv wrote:

In a way Bal Thackray was a partial political answer to the anarchy that Mumbai was and probably still is. Even today money talks louder in Mumbai than Hindutva or regionalism. It would be interesting to see if Mumbai can ever be regained by Hindu Maharashtrians. I suspect that it will be good both for Mumbai and Maharashtrians if that happens but it will come at a price. Money will flee Mumbai and settle somewhere else.


+1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:02 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
shiv wrote:
It would be interesting to see if Mumbai can ever be regained by Hindu Maharashtrians. I suspect that it will be good both for Mumbai and Maharashtrians if that happens but it will come at a price. Money will flee Mumbai and settle somewhere else.

Shiv, Mumbai has been regained by Hindu Maharashtrians on the 1st May 1960 as the result of 'samyukta maharashtra movement' (united maharashtra). The day since being celebrated as 'Maharashtra Day'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:05 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23198
Location: Embarrassed by fresh-off-the-boat Indians
abhijitm wrote:
shiv wrote:
It would be interesting to see if Mumbai can ever be regained by Hindu Maharashtrians. I suspect that it will be good both for Mumbai and Maharashtrians if that happens but it will come at a price. Money will flee Mumbai and settle somewhere else.

Shiv, Mumbai has been regained by Hindu Maharashtrians on the 1st May 1960 as the result of 'samyukta maharashtra movement' (united maharashtra). The day since being celebrated as 'Maharashtra Day'.


No. That is not what I mean. Mumbai is only nominally under Maharashtrian control like Banglaore is only nominally Kannadiga. The locals don't own the money. They only run the services. In fact Mumbai may be worse than bangalore in this regard, but i don't know

Incidentally:
www.indiaonlinepages.com/population/mum ... ation.html

Quote:
According to 1991 census, the population of Mumbai was only 12.5 million; So Population of Mumbai has grown almost double in the last 20 years.
...
Hinduism continued to be the largest religion in Mumbai with 67.30% Hindu population. Muslims with 18.56% population forms the second largest religious community in the city.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:06 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 20 Sep 2010 06:47
Posts: 758
I've already expressed my opinion but on second thoughts, maybe there should be a separate thread for BT's contribution and achievements, where this can be discussed more freely. This thread just marks his passing. And I know I'd be interested in a more in-depth discussion on the man himself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:12 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Posts: 1912
Location: On board Coobsat. Fanatically chasing MOM.
I see your point. But I slightly disagree on 'Mumbai is only nominally under Maharashtrian control'. Vaishyas make money and the king gets his share. That does not mean Vaishyas rule the kingdom. If you get my drift.. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:13 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25
Posts: 12237
Anyone who recognizes that one of the keys to survival and progress of India lies in the elimination of mullah, mullahcracy, and the hold and presence of mullah influence within the rashtra - is a statesman. You may not like his rhetoric, his methods, his utterances on provocation from the other side, but you should recognize his visionary capacity.

If his actions and methods have not been sufficient, it is the task of the upcoming generations to expand it - and adapt it to changing circumstances. But we have to recognize and salute the political genius that could clearly see the need for complete elimination of the mullah from public life - even if he was not able to achieve it.

Without a tangible fear of a "Hindu" backlash, that can throw both Islamophile regimes as well as Islamist infrastructure designed to propagate permanent violent jihad - the future ambition to convert all of India to Arabism and sunni retrogression, would not have and will never be checked. BT should be saluted for having been able to clearly propound this in his own corner of the land.

PS: Mumbai cannot be entirely rid of the Islamist influence - because, as I have pointed out many times - and amply borne out by Indian history, a section of mercantile mentality "Hindus/Buddhists" etc, have always placed short-term monetary profits over and above long term consequences for the economy and the people. This is the section that will clamour to protect islamists, will help eliminate "Hindu mafia" but mumble onlee about Dawood or Islamist mafia - or even help them toe scape with their life and money, and help maintain the continued connections of Islamist mafia based in the Islamist Gulf into the financial and criminal networks within the hinterland of Mumbai.

So in that sense a BT II, or BT III will not be able to chase away the Islamist criminality nexus from Mumbai entirely. Ironically, the complete elimination of the Gulf based Islamist jihad and mafia will only be if Mumbai gets destroyed economically.

Therefore BT' success should be evaluated against this backdrop - he could do onlee so much without destroying the economic underlying network.


Last edited by brihaspati on 18 Nov 2012 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:17 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Posts: 12494
Location: In a sad place
ldev wrote:
If one really knows Balasaheb, he stood first and foremost for the people of Maharashtra. His views on Hindutva received publicity AFTER his alliance with the BJP was formalized i.e. he paid lip service to his political partner's pet project but in his heart of hearts he never cared much for the Hindutva idealogy.


:rotfl:

The oracle season is open.

You must have been really close to BT to know about his heart of heart.

However some other hearts, are thankfully so much more easier to read.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: RIP Bal Thackeray
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 22:18 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07
Posts: 3987
ldev wrote:
Yes and someone needs to live in Western Maharashtra among Marathas for the last few decades and see the reality on the ground... and not read theory in some history book without ever having lived in the area.


This is Kumar Ketkar talking.. anyways, I respond..

I have lived there for ever. Our family has lived there for more than 700 years and fought alongside yadavas, marathas, peshwas and freedom fighting revolutionaries (both gandhian and non-gandhian).. So, please do not bring Brahmin-Maratha dispute here.. The dispute exists, but has nothing to do with SS and RSS. It has everything to do with INC and NCP. When discussing NCP and INC, I have already dealt with it in Assembly election thread.

There is no difference between Maharashtra-Dharma and Sanatan Dharma OR hindutva. BT supported the RJB movement issue after the issue came in forefront after Shah Bano case. Support to RJB movement is not the litmus test of being a "hindutva" supporter. There were Hindutva supporters of all types. And RJB was not an issue in deccan until 1985.

His father, "Prabodhankar" Keshav Thakre was a fierce Hindutva-reformer like Savarkar. One has to read literature of his father to understand the ideological stand of BT. Shivsena was established from Sanyukta Maharashtra Samiti when MH state came into existence in 1960. SMS was all anti-INC forces (including communists). Later they separated and SS was established. People like Senapati Bapat were brains behind formation and dissolution of SMS and subsequent formation of SS.

I will not elaborate on this any more, because one who says SS and BT were not Hindutva supporter is a lost cause.


Last edited by Atri on 18 Nov 2012 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 188 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group