Understanding Islamic Society

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ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Philip
The vicious schism between Sunni and Shia has been poisoning Islam for 1,400 years - and it's getting worse
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 39525.html

The war in Syria began much earlier than is generally recognised. The conflict actually began in the year 632 with the death of the Prophet Mohamed. The same is true of the violence, tension or oppression currently gripping the Muslim world from Iraq and Iran, though Egypt, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia to Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

A single problem lies behind all that friction and hostility. On Tuesday, Britain's leading Muslim politician, the Foreign Office minister Baroness Warsi, obliquely addressed it in a speech she made in Oman, the Arab state at the south-east corner of the Arabian Peninsula strategically positioned at the mouth of the Persian Gulf. The religious tolerance of the Sultanate, she suggested, offered a model for the whole of the Islamic world. It certainly needs such an exemplar of openness and acceptance.

What most of the crucibles of conflict in the Middle East have in common is that Sunni Muslims are on one side of the disagreement and Shia Muslims on the other. Oman is unusual because its Sunni and Shia residents are outnumbered by a third sect, the Ibadis, who constitute more than half the population. In many countries, the Sunni and the Shia are today head-to-head.

The rift between the two great Islamic denominations runs like a tectonic fault-line along what is known as the Shia Crescent, starting in Lebanon in the north and curving through Syria and Iraq to the Gulf and to Iran and further east.

The division between Sunni and Shia Muslims is the oldest in the Middle East – and yet it is one which seems increasingly to be shaping the destiny of this troubled region as thousands of devotees from both sides pour into Syria. Jihadist al-Qa'ida volunteers on the Sunni side and Hezbollah militants on the Shia, are joining what is fast becoming a transnational civil war between the two factions.

There are around one and a half billion Muslims in the world. Of these, somewhere between 10 and 20 per cent – estimates vary considerably – are Shia. In most countries these Shia are minorities in a Sunni homeland. But in Iraq, Iran, Bahrain and Azerbaijan they outnumber their co-religionists.

A painting of the Battle of Karbala in 680AD, in present day Iraq, which is remembered by both Sunnis and Shias (Corbis) A painting of the Battle of Karbala in 680AD, in present day Iraq, which is remembered by both Sunnis and Shias (Corbis)
What makes Syria different is that there a Sunni majority is ruled by a Shia minority. The Alawites, the sect to which President Bashar al-Assad and much of his army officer elite belong, are Shia. That situation is the mirror opposite of Iraq under Saddam, where a Sunni strongman lorded it over a Shia majority – until the invasion of Iraq, when elections put the Shia in charge, insofar as anyone can be said to be running that chaotic country.

The division between the two factions is older and deeper even than the tensions between Protestants and Catholics which bedevilled Europe for centuries. The two Christian denominations had a shared history for 1500 years. By contrast the rift between the two biggest Muslim factions goes right back to the beginning – and a row over who should succeed the Prophet Mohamed as leader of the emerging Islamic community when he died in the early 7th century.

In the last 10 years of his life Mohamed inflicted total defeat on the pagan tribes of Mecca and by doing so united the entire Arabian peninsula. Around 100,000 people had submitted to the rule of Mohamed and of Allah. Tribal alliances in Arabia in those days usually disintegrated on the death of the leader, or after the short-term military objectives had been met and the spoils divided. Often succession would pass to the leader' s son. But Mohamed had no son, only a daughter. And his inheritance was spiritual as well as political.

The majority of his followers thought his closest associate, Abu Bakr, should take over. They became the Sunnis. But a minority thought the Prophet's closest relative, his son-in-law and nephew Ali, should succeed.

Shia is an abbreviation of Shiat Ali "the party of Ali". Intrigues and violence followed, with Mohamed's widow Aisha (who was also the daughter of Abu Bakr) leading troops against Ali. Eventually Ali was killed, as was his son Hussein, and persecution and martyrdom became ingrained in the Shia psyche. As the years passed rift hardened into schism. The seeds of civil war had been sown.

The two sides agreed on the Quran but had different views on hadith, the traditions recorded by Mohamed's followers about what he had said and done in his life. Diverging traditions of ritual, law and practice soon emerged. A clerical hierarchy, topped by imams and ayatollahs, became crucial in Shi'ism. By contrast, Sunni Muslims felt no need of intermediaries in their relationship with God – an approach which has abetted the rise of extremist zealots like al-Qa'ida. The Sunnis became happy to depend upon the state, which their adherents mostly controlled.

The chief Shia religious festival became Ashura when devotees would beat themselves to commemorate the death of the Prophet's grandson Hussein at the Battle of Karbala in 680. Various Shia sub-sects formed, including the fanatical Assassins, the Alawites in Syria and the Ismailis, whose leader is the Aga Khan. Some mystical sufi movements created a bridge between Sunni and Shia but hardline Sunnis regard the Shia practice of venerating saints and visiting shrines as heretical – which is why Sunni extremists bomb Shias on pilgrimage in places like Karbala in Iraq today.
Read more: Syria conflict: Enemies cross the front lines in Damascus. But will the truce hold?

Yet for much of the 1,400 years since the death of the Prophet the majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims have not routinely allowed their theological differences to create hostility. Some Sunnis included ritual denunciations of Ali in their prayers, but in many times and places the two sects have co-existed peacefully.

From time to time, however, violence has flared in which the Shia, in the main, have been brutally and even genocidally persecuted. In 1514 an Ottoman sultan ordered the massacre of 40,000 Shia. Mughal emperors in India between the 15th and 19th centuries routinely executed Shia scholars, burned their libraries and desecrated their sacred sites. Inter-communal violence has recurred in Pakistan.

There have been periods and places of concord. In 1959 the most influential centre of Sunni scholarship, al-Azhar University in Cairo, admitted Shia jurisprudence to its curriculum. In Azerbaijan, where the Shias are in the majority, there are mixed mosques where both sects pray together. But early in the 20th century the Saudi royal family made discrimination against the Shia official and destroyed most of the Shia holy places. With the rise there of the Sunni fundamentalism known as Wahhabism, severe restrictions have been placed on Shia practice and its leaders jailed. Some Saudi scholars brand Shi'ism as a heresy "worse than Christianity or Judaism".

The fanatics of al-Qa'ida have been nurtured in this Wahhabi ideology. Some of them consider the Shia to be not merely heretics but apostates – and the punishment for apostasy, they say, is death.

Over the years the division has been exploited by outsiders. British colonialists in Iraq in the 1920s used an elite of Sunni army officers to suppress a Shia rebellion, paving the way for Saddam's Sunni minority rule, in which Shia clerics were regularly executed. The legacy has been that most of the 6,000 killings over the past year in Baghdad are Sunni on Shia and vice-versa. Now this ruthless sectarianism has spread to Syria.

Two major developments have triggered the escalation of tension between Sunni and Shia in recent years. The first was the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 when the rule of the pro-Western Shah was overthrown and replaced with a Shia theocracy with Ayatollah Khomeini at the head. Khomeini did his best to build good relations between Shia and Sunni inside Iran but other leaders, religious and secular, have since been more divisive. And Khomeini was from the outset adversarial to the Sunni aristocrats who led Saudi Arabia – calling them American lackeys as well as "unpopular and corrupt" dictators.

Division: Forces of Syria's Alawite (Shia) regime (Reuters) Division: Forces of Syria's Alawite (Shia) regime (Reuters)
The Iranians and Saudis have been fighting a proxy war in the Middle East ever since.

Today in Iran, though Christian churches are tolerated, the million Sunnis in Tehran have no mosque of their own. There are no Sunnis in top government. Sunni businessmen have difficulty getting import and export licences. Huge numbers of ordinary Sunnis are unemployed. The situation in Saudi Arabia is the exact reverse, with Shia on the receiving end of the discrimination.

From time to time there are attempts to insist that the tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia are not religious. In 2007 King Abdullah of the House of Saud met the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and, with public hugs, spoke of a thaw in relations between the two regional powers – and condemned those who were trying to fuel the fire of strife between Sunni and Shia.

But it changed nothing in the realpolitik. Each oil-producing giant sees the other as a huge obstacle to its national interests. Geopolitics is the reality but religious vision is the tribal badge it wears.

The invasion of Iraq instigated by George Bush and Tony Blair in 2003 was the second big factor in the deterioration of Sunni-Shia relations. Saddam Hussein led a Sunni elite which governed Iraq's Shia majority with a reign of state terror. The US had backed Saddam in Iraq's war with Iran throughout the 1980s, in which half a million troops died.

But after 9/11 the US changed its mind about Saddam, overthrew him and brought democracy to Iraq. The resulting election placed in power leaders from the Shia majority who have excluded the Sunni minority – who have responded with the car bombs which are killing thousands in Baghdad and elsewhere. Al-Qa'ida jihadists have flooded into the country to join Sunni terrorists in attacking the Shia government. And now the polarised sectarian conflict has spilled over into Syria.

When the Arab Spring reached Syria in 2011 it began as a protest against the corruption, nepotism and human rights abuses of the Assad government. But within two years the armed uprising against the regime was transformed.

Rebels motivated by political indignation, who received limited backing from Western governments, slowly became outnumbered by rebel groups with extreme Islamist motivation fighting to create what they call the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).

These jihadists have come from across the Islamic world but they are backed by Saudi cash. More recently Shia militants from the Lebanese paramilitary group Hezbollah have arrived to support the Alawite-led army of the Assad regime. Full-blown civil war is the result.

What all this means is that Sunni and Shia are locked in conflict all across the Shia Crescent. As each side steps up its activities, the other feels more threatened and hardens its response in turn.

Sunni-Shia tensions are increasing across the world as a result. They are on the rise in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Kuwait, Lebanon, Bahrain, Libya, Tunisia, Malaysia, Egypt, and even in London as issues of identity, rights, interests and enfranchisement find sectarian expression.

The tensions are deep-rooted in wider economic and geopolitical concerns. But the risk – given the long history of division and tension – is that predictions of a transnational civil war between Sunni and Shia could become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

brihaspati wrote:Why is it "poisoning"? Where do these columnists get there history from?!! Its in a way the continuing fight between Eastern Med imperialism versus Persian imperialism. They have either conveniently forgotten the real start of the problem at the murderous and deceptive attack led by Ali on tesyphon/tisphun - the outpost/military capital of the Parthians. Ali's "marriage" with a child-bride abducted/captive of war/negotiated handover/ princess who happened to be there when tesyphon fell - started off the whole chain of factional politics through which the western parts of the Parthian imperial setup tried to stem the Arab tide.

Shia-Sunni covers Byzantine/Roman eastwards thrust versus east of fertile crescent thrust westwards. Just as Islam then represented the ideological legatees of the iconoclastic zeal of Byzantine Christian imperialism - as now Sunni Arabs function as extensions of European/American proxy imperialism - Shias represented Persian adaptation within a then victorious Arab thrust, to survive and resist the Arab.

The real politics and poison was the vicious contest between Aisha and Fatima on the one hand, and between Aisha and Ali on the other that spilled over even around Umar - after the founders passing away. As far as I remember the formal dispute was Aisha and Fatima's respective failure to get certain orchards as their "haq". But the real conflict between Ali and Aisha was the infamous story early in Aisha's married life when she had straggled behind or fallen behind on a journey, and a young Muslim also fell behind to be her guard. When they caught up in the evening with the rest of group including her husband, Ali had openly accused her of "haram" behaviour. The founder cut it short by intervening in favour of Aisha.

Most commentators indicate that Aisha never forgave Ali for this, and this was what started off one of the real chain of politics within the hot, murderous and vicious inter-personal inter-group rivalries within early Islamic followers of the founder. It was a Sunni-Arab conflict in which Ali later on simply became an iconic weapon of fighting back by remnant Persian/Parthian sublayered identity.

If there was any poison, it was the vicious sexual politics of early Islam, that often showed through predictable rivalries.
Prem
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:Philip
The vicious schism between Sunni and Shia has been poisoning Islam for 1,400 years - and it's getting worse

If there was any poison, it was the vicious sexual politics of early Islam, that often showed through predictable rivalries.
So its the fight to get right of first dig in what Muhammad use to call partaking in Honey Tasting Reward/Parsad Ritual.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Some X-posts from Islamism & Islamophobia thread:

Incest, Homosexuality and Islam:

Let's Go Forward, Not Backward, on the Issue of Homosexuality in Islam
A U.K. based leader has opined, "The Islamic position is that we don't label people by their sexuality ... we don't recognize the term gay ... you should not be saying I must come out of the closet ..." Dr. Naseem has asserted, "A compulsive murderer, gambler, pedophile etc. could present the same logic and ask for accommodation by the society."

Kutty alludes to the prohibitions against "bestiality, anal intercourse (liwaat), masturbation, necrophilia ..." Based on the maqasid (higher objectives) of the Sharia, he argues that "homosexuality" is "unanimously" prohibited as it "threatens" the family institution. However, he qualifies his opinions by asserting that Muslims could support same-sex marriages given the 14th century juristic opinion on tolerating Zoroastrian incest marriages. :mrgreen:
The 11th century jurist Ibn Hazm went so far as to assert, "Love is neither disapproved by Religion, nor prohibited by the Law..." He openly stated of his friend, "... beauty itself was created in his likeness, or fashioned out of the sighs of those who looked upon him: I have never seen his equal in beauty, comeliness, physique ..." It is also noted that the 7th century scholar Al Kisai Al Kufi, who provided one of the seven canonical ways of reading the Qur'an, openly confessed to engaging in same-sex relations.
--------------------------

This is what happens when a rejection of falsehood is not followed by embracing a more holistic truth that subsumes it. Its opposite ultimately breaks down:

The Apostate
A young Muslim leaves Pakistan for Britain, discovers the wonders of science and rejects his faith. On September 11, he posts a final picture on Facebook and takes his own life
This is a story about Islam, alienation and violent death — but it’s not one you’ll have read before. It is not about radicalisation, jihad and martyrdom. This is the story of an ex-Muslim. A young man who, as a teenager, moves from Pakistan to Britain, learns about the wonders of science and embraces a militant form of atheism. Who rejects God and religion, spirals into depression, and in an act of despair and disconsolation, takes his own life on a date that will resonate with everyone: September 11. This is Irtaza Hussain’s story. But it’s also the story of other men and women just like him, who, as a matter of principle and conscience, choose to abandon Islam and religious belief, becoming “apostates” to the faith.
---------------------

The following is entirely in line with Islamic laws around "fitna" (subversion):
Saudi Arabia declares atheists terrorists under new laws targeting citizens who 'call for secular thought in any form'
The regulations place secular citizens who commit thought crimes in the same category as violent terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda's Yemen branch and Saudi Hezbollah.
--------------------

Getting drunk in a Muslim country: Iran's secret party scene revealed
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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From Daily Beast....
The Daily Beast,
Michael Schulson, World News, 03.29.14

Will Saudi Arabia Execute Guest Workers for 'Witchcraft'?
Indonesian guest workers are on trial in Saudi Arabia for “witchcraft.” But the charges are cover for cultural misunderstandings, sexual assaults, and withheld wages.

Barack Obama is spending part of this weekend in Saudi Arabia, the final stop in a five-country tour. Obama started his springtime trip in the Netherlands, where he visited The Hague, seat of the International Court of Justice. Working his way south, Obama spent Wednesday in Belgium and passed Thursday morning in the Vatican before heading down to Riyadh, presumably to talk about security (meaning Iran) and the historic ties between our two countries (meaning oil).

This same weekend, elsewhere in Saudi Arabia, around 40 guest workers from Indonesia are sitting in jail. Most have been charged with sorcery or witchcraft. According to Global Post, five of these workers, having exhausted their appeals, face the death penalty.

For foreign household workers in Saudi Arabia, most of them women, sorcery charges are more common than you might think. Guest workers end up in jail through bad luck, legal revenge, and cultural misunderstanding.

“In many cases,” explains Adam Coogle, a Middle East researcher at Human Rights Watch, “a domestic worker, from rural India or Bangladesh or wherever, might bring along a folk heirloom, something that is perceived by the Saudi host to be an object of witchcraft.” In other situations, the accusation arises as a countercharge. The domestic worker has tried to charge her employer with some kind of mistreatment—withheld wages, say, or sexual assault. In turn, the employer accuses her of being a witch.
(Indian "bringing along a folk heirloom" -> aka idolating Hindoo from India or Bangladesh)

Saudi Arabia doesn’t have a written criminal code. In its religious courts, a guest worker accused of witchcraft or sorcery is guaranteed neither a lawyer nor a translator, says Coogle. Her fate depends in part on the inclinations of the presiding judge, who often collaborates with the prosecutor in order to define the charges.

In 2012, according to Saudi Gazette, Saudi authorities arrested 215 supposed magicians. In 2011, a special witchcraft-busting unit reported that it had handled nearly 600 claims in the preceding few years. Not all these charges are leveled against foreigners. Saudi citizens, too, have been arraigned, and executed, for sorcery.

In recent years, the government has expanded its efforts to identify and prosecute witchcraft.

The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice—in other words, the religious police—has even taken its investigations online, monitoring Twitter for signs of sorcery.

“Witchcraft trials remind us that we’re all stuck in a dizzying kind of present—a present where democratic countries underwrite fundamentalist monarchies, and where the very forces that allow some countries to modernize guide others into a warped caricature of the past.”Some might chalk this all up to a barbaric, backwards society that’s yet to progress past the Dark Ages. That kind of reaction is not only inaccurate. It’s also lazy, and deeply self-serving. Witchcraft trials don’t mean that Saudi Arabia is stuck in another time. Instead, they remind us that we’re all stuck in a dizzying kind of present—a present where democratic countries underwrite fundamentalist monarchies, and where the very forces that allow some countries to modernize guide others into a warped caricature of the past.

“In theory Saudi Arabia should not exist,” writes the historian Robert Lacey. Like Michael Jackson’s Neverland ranch, Saudi Arabia has the kind of fragile bizarreness that can only result from an enormous infusion of cash. Extravagantly wealthy, it has a citizenship that’s poorly educated and underemployed. Approximately eight million guest workers fill jobs across the country. Two-thirds of Saudi Arabia’s working adults, by one estimate, are foreigners.

Saudi society and government are intricately intertwined with a puritanical flavor of Islam, Wahhabism. Wahhabism isn’t especially ancient, by the standards of religious movements; the sect dates from the late eighteenth century. Today its influence, felt in everything from schooling to law enforcement, permeates Saudi society.

Fundamentalist societies are delicate things, especially when the Internet arrives (and it has) and youth start to look outward (and they have). It’s hard to imagine how any society could maintain such an obsessive focus on religious purity, such an uneducated populace, such a decentralized legal system, and such a huge foreign underclass without being propped up by, say, one-fifth of the world’s known oil reserves. After all, radically purist ideologies need to be sheltered from the vagaries of the world, and they can be expensive to maintain.

Of course, plenty of countries are willing to underwrite that expense. If Saudi Arabia is a hothouse flower, then Americans have helped build the greenhouse. And within that greenhouse, it seems, are some fertile conditions for witch-hunting.

At least in premodern Europe and Puritan North America, witch-hunting follows certain patterns. Accusations usually come against women, especially those with little social power (the first suspect in the Salem witch trials was a black slave named Tituba; working their way up the social ladder, the accusers eventually went so far as to name the president of Harvard College, at which point nobody believed them).

Accusers seek out impurity within their own communities; like a Stalinist purge, witch trials are inwardly-focused events, not attacks on complete outsiders. An accusation of witchcraft is vague enough to serve as a kind of catchall for discontent. “The term ‘witch’ in seventeenth-century New England functioned as a label people used to control or punish someone,” writes David Hall, a religious historian at Harvard, and it could apply “to anyone who threatened established authority.”

Not surprisingly, this pattern of paranoia-and-purging often comes at times of social instability. “Perhaps no other form of crime in history has been a better index of social change, for outbreaks of witchcraft mania have generally taken place in societies which are experiencing a shift of religious focus,” writes sociologist Kai Erikson.

These conditions for witch-hunting certainly seem to be abundant in Saudi Arabia. It’s an insular, purity-obsessed society, with a population of legally powerless women tucked neatly into its midst. And, faced with regional instability, an aging king, dynastic uncertainty, and menacing incursions of Western culture, Saudi society may very well be at a moment of social anxiety and change.

These conditions don’t arise in spite of the modern world; they arise, in large part, because of it. The 21st century, perhaps, gives Saudi Arabia the ingredients to nurture a seemingly medieval hysteria: oil revenue that helps Saudi leaders wrap their society in a totalizing fundamentalist garb; a flow of foreign workers, paid with that oil money, who provide a conveniently vulnerable other in the heart of the home; and an anxiety-inducing friction between an insular culture and a globalized world.

In other words, we can’t quite divorce these witchcraft trials from our post-Enlightenment bubble. The two are weirdly entangled, and nothing illustrates that entanglement better than this week’s spectacle: an American president visiting The Hague, and then the Vatican, and then the Saudis, all in the space of a week, and all while Saudi judges contemplate beheading foreign nationals on charges of witchcraft.

In On Saudi Arabia, journalist Karen Elliott House describes the odd silence that seems to surround the House of Saud. Noting that, in his major 2011 speech on the Middle East, Obama did not once mention Saudi Arabia, she writes that the country’s “fate is so important to the rest of the world and the world is so vested in maintenance of its status quo that it’s almost as if talking about Saudi Arabia might jinx that stability.”

It’s like being under a spell.

Prem
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

Jihad in the West: Muslim Conquests from the 7th to the 21st Centuries
Anyone Here read this Book

Is there any real relationship between the Muslim military campaigns of previous centuries and the recent terrorism campaigns? Paul Fregosi argues that there is — both are reflections of a fundamental antagonism to the non-Muslim world, and in particular to the economically and militarily powerful West.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Its about Dar-ul-Islam and Harab. Only now they can't send razaakars but send a few terrorists and rouse the gullible converts with visions of raisins.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Anand K »

IIRC this was a rather triumphalist book but there are lots and lots of nuggets. Essential reading along with someone like Hugh Kennedy who has a good handle on military-political aspects of Maghreb/West Asian/Central Asian sultanates. It was in this book that I learned that Napoleon had (rumored to at least) a 16 year old mistress, the daughter of a Mameluke courtier. She was of course executed for sleeping with the enemy when the French left - along with hundreds of women who committed the same sin.

Hah, the Egyptian Jihad against Napoleon was bad karma, Prince Eugene would have probably finished off the Ottomans a hundred years ago if not for the French who propped up the Ottomans against the Austro-Hungarians and Russians. Of course this time it was the British who aided the Ottomans and Arabs against Napoleon..... and so on and so forth.....
Guess we can't blame the Cold War creeps who watered the Afghan Jihad poison tree or the GOTUS elements aiding TSP huh?

PS: Napoleon was more "French" than jack-knife happy Siesta loving kipper smelling Corsican - many secret liaisons. The last one was with the wife of his Doctor in St. Helena. Apparently it was this Doctor who poisoned him in revenge with Arsenic.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Agnimitra, In the end Islam boils down to Hallal and Haram (H&H): Commanding what is Right and Forbidding what is Wrong. Right and Wrong are what Muhammad is purported to have dreamed of.

Can you write an essay on your blog on this subject and post a link in one or two months?
Agnimitra
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Ok ramana ji, will gather some thoughts and put it down.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Two X-posts...
Singha wrote:^ most ITvity managers would get a heart attack on getting the above Outlook invite lol. for him, its just another day at the "office"

until reading it on brf recently, I was totally unaware of another later called Arzal below the Ajlaf.
from that account the gora skin worship of the congis right from JLN era is a clear continuation of the sultanate norms dating back to the first turkic rulers in delhi. as is the concept of durbars, imbecile princelings, large grants from a pleased ruler to favourite courtiers.........just the people and venue changed a bit...internal dynamics remained same

from wiki:

Stratification[edit]
In some parts of South Asia, the Muslims are divided as Ashrafs and Ajlafs.[14] Ashrafs claim a superior status derived from their foreign ancestry.[15]

Sections of the ulema (scholars of Islamic jurisprudence) provide religious legitimacy to caste with the help of the concept of kafa'a. A classical example of scholarly declaration of the Muslim caste system is the Fatawa-i-Jahandari, written by the fourteenth century Turkish scholar, Ziauddin Barani, a member of the court of Muhammad bin Tughlaq, of the Tughlaq dynasty of the Delhi Sultanate. Barani was known for his intensely casteist views, and regarded the Ashraf Muslims as racially superior to the Ajlaf Muslims. He divided the Muslims into grades and sub-grades. In his scheme, all high positions and privileges were to be a monopoly of the high born Turks, not the Indian Muslims.

Even in his interpretation of the Koranic verse "Indeed, the pious amongst you are most honored by Allah", he considered piety to be associated with noble birth. Barani was specific in his recommendation that the "sons of Mohamed" [i.e. Ashrafs] "be given a higher social status than the low-born [i.e. Ajlaf].[16] His most significant contribution in the fatwa was his analysis of the castes with respect to Islam.[16] His assertion was that castes would be mandated through state laws or "Zawabi" and would carry precedence over Sharia law whenever they were in conflict.[16]

In the Fatwa-i-Jahandari (advice XXI), he wrote about the "qualities of the high-born" as being "virtuous" and the "low-born" being the "custodian of vices". Every act which is "contaminated with meanness and based on ignominity, comes elegantly [from the Ajlaf]".[16] Barani had a clear disdain for the Ajlaf and strongly recommended that they be denied education, lest they usurp the Ashraf masters. He sought appropriate religious sanction to that effect.[13] Barani also developed an elaborate system of promotion and demotion of Imperial officers ("Wazirs") that was primarily on the basis of their caste.[16]

In addition to the Ashraf/Ajlaf divide, there is also the Arzal caste among Muslims, who were regarded by anti-Caste activists like as the equivalent of untouchables.[17][18] The term "Arzal" stands for "degraded" and the Arzal castes are further subdivided into Bhanar, Halalkhor, Hijra, Kasbi, Lalbegi, Maugta, Mehtar etc.[17][18][19] The Arzal group was recorded in the 1901 census in India and are also called Muslims “with whom no other Muhammadan would associate, and who are forbidden to enter the mosque or to use the public burial ground”. They are relegated to "menial" professions such as scavenging and carrying night soil.[20]

Castes in India[edit]
Some South Asian Muslims have been known to stratify their society according to Quoms.[25] These Muslims practise a ritual-based system of social stratification. The Quoms who deal with human emissions are ranked the lowest. Studies of Bengali Muslims in India indicate that the concepts of purity and impurity exist among them and are applicable in inter-group relationships, as the notions of hygiene and cleanliness in a person are related to the person's social position and not to his/her economic status.[21] Muslim Rajput is another caste distinction among Indian Muslims.

Some of the backward or lower-caste Muslim caste include Kunjra, Dhobi and Halalkhor. The upper caste Muslim caste include Qureshi,Shaikh Ansari, Syed, Pathan, Turk, Sheikh and Mallik.[22] Genetic data has also supported this stratification.[26]

The report commissioned by the government of India and released in 2006, documents the continued stratification in Muslim society.

===
and we all know the Ashraf through selectively marrying only Ashraf (if need be from TSP or even further afield like turkey) have managed to retain their physical looks and pure white skin for centuries now after the mughals vanished. they intend to keep it that way one thinks.

and
Paul wrote:OT....As I wrote in the Pakistan thread, Before partition the Ashrafs ruled the muslims of India ruled Indian Muslims through the Muslim league. After partition since the umma has been divided amongst three countries. Ashrafs have lost the power in Pakistan to the Pakjabis, and hold the power only in parts of India. After partition, there was a power shift in the subcontinental muslim leadership ( exemplified by Fatima Jinnah's loss to Ayub and MQM's rise in Pak ). This is why we had muslims from India telling Mush that they are happier in India and would prefer Pakistan leaving them to their devices. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=951iB8zW_wE)

Ashrafs can dream of their glory days of the past, but the fact is that other communities within the
muslims are not going to hand back power to them on a platter..I think we should look at the Muslim votebank / Ashraf angle on a case by case basis in India. It is valid in Hyderabad and parts of UP but not in other parts. It is not applicable in Bihar as per Sanku's post.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

johneeG wrote:Re-posting from erstwhile Baki thread:
ramana wrote:{quote="johneeG"}.... I don't understand these people, they criticize a thing and turn around do the same thing...like Idol worship(hint: Kabba). I came across a site that claims Mecca was a Lord Shiva's temple, that may explain the worship of Moon.{/quote}


Is it possible to have a u tube on this!

May be there is one already.
Ramana garu,
KAABA A HINDU TEMPLE TAKEN OVER BY MUSLIMS

KING VIKRAMADITYA INSCRIPTION ON A GOLD DISH HUNG INSIDE THE KAABA
In pure scientific study about the Historical Muhammad raises basic questions concerning the prophet's role as a moral paragon; the sources of Islamic law; and the God-given nature of the Koran. The scientists even doubt the existence of Muhammad. Scientists say that the Koran is a not a product of Muhammad or even of Arabia, but a collection of materials stitched together to meet the needs of a later age. There was no Islam until two or three hundred years after the traditional version at around 830CE. The Arab tribesmen who conquered in the seventh century vast territory were not Moslems, but were persons who worshiped idols and are scientists call them pagans.

Even though Prophet Muhammad was born in the full light of history the earliest document date about a century and a half after his death. Not only does this long lapse of time cast doubt on their accuracy, but internal evidence strongly suggests the Arabic sources were composed in the context of intense partisan quarrels over the prophet's life. The earliest sources like papyri, inscriptions, and coins on the prophet's life, contradict the standard biography. An inscription and a Greek account fix Muhammad's birth in 552, not 570. Muhammad's career took place not in Mecca but hundreds of kilometers to the north. Yehuda Nevo. The classical Arabic language was developed not in today's Saudi Arabia but in the Levant.

Long before Islam came in to existence, Kaaba, in Mecca in Saudi Arabia was a pilgrimage site. The word Kaaba might have come from the Tamil Language which originated around 1700BC. In Tamil Nadu Kabaalishwaran temple is Lord Shiva’s temple and Kabaali refers to Lord Shiva.(May be Arabic language is related to Brahmi script -johneeG The black stone at Kaaba is held sacred and holy in Islam and is called "Hajre Aswad" from the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta or Non-white stone. The Shiva Lingam is also called Sanghey Ashweta. So what is in Kaaba could be the same what Hindus worship. The pedestal Maqam-E-Ibrahim at the centre of the Kaaba is octagonal in shape. In Hinduism, the pedestal of Brahma the creator is also octagonal in shape. Muslim pilgrims visiting the Kaaba temple go around it seven times. In no other mosque does the circumambulation prevail. Hindus invariably circumambulate or Pradakshina, around their deities. This is yet another proof that the Kaaba shrine is a pre-Islamic. In Shiva temples Hindus always practice circumambulation or Pradakshina. Just as in Hinduism, the custom of circumambulation by muslim pilgrims around the entire Kaaba building seven times shows that the claim that in Islam they don’t worship stones is not true.

Allah was one of the deities in Kaaba long before Islam was founded. It might come as a stunning revelation to many that the word ‘ALLAH’ itself is Sanskrit. In Sanskrit language Allah, Akka and Amba are synonyms. They signify a goddess or mother. The term ‘ALLAH’ forms part of Sanskrit chants invoking goddess Durga, also known as Bhavani, Chandi and Mahishasurmardini. The Islamic word for God is., therefore, not an innovation but the ancient Sanskrit appellation retained and continued by Islam. Allah means mother or goddess and mother goddess.

The King Vikramaditya inscription was found on a gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, proving beyond doubt that the Arabian Peninsula formed a part of his Indian Empire. (Ref: page 315 of a volume known as ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey). King Vikrama’s preachers had succeeded in spreading the Vedic Hindu sacred scriptures in Arabia and Arabs were once followers of the Indian Vedic way of life. The annual fair known as OKAJ which used to be held every year around the Kaaba temple in Mecca and the present annual hajj of the Muslims to the Kaaba is of earlier pre-Islamic congregation. . Even to this day ancient Siva emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara (Siva) stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in the Kaaba.

Muslims shave their head and beard and don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean and with holy seamless white sheets. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Kaaba has 360 idols. Traditional accounts mention that one of the deities among the 360 destroyed when the place was stormed was that of Saturn; another was of the Moon and yet another was one called Allah. That shows that in the Kaaba the Arabs worshipped the nine planets in pre-Islamic days. In India the practice of ‘Navagraha’ puja, that is worship of the nine planets, is still in vogue. Two of these nine are Saturn and Moon. In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the Siva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam.

The Hindu Vedic letter in Sanskrit "OM" if seen in a mirror one can see the Arabic numbers 786 and this is the most sacred number for Muslims and copies of the Arabic Koran have the mysterious figure 786 imprinted on them. In their ignorance simply they do not realize that this special number is nothing more than the holiest of Vedic symbols misread and none of the Arabic scholar has been able to determine how they chose 786 as the sacred for them. In short muslims are also going around Siva Lingam at Kaaba, seven times as Hindus go around it seven times.

A few miles away from Mecca are a big signboard which bars the entry of any non-Muslim into the area. This is a reminder of the days when the Kaaba was stormed and captured solely for the newly established faith of Islam. The object in barring entry of non-Muslims was obviously to prevent its recapture. Kaaba is clothed in a black shroud. This custom also originated from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recapture by camouflaging it.

Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacred stream Ganga (sacred waters of the Ganges river). According to the Hindu tradition Ganga is also inseparable from the Shiva emblem as the crescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem, Ganga must co-exist. True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as Ganga since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water).
http://krishnajkaaba.blogspot.in/2005/0 ... er-by.html


There are videos on utube which make the same point more vividly(and convincingly), because it is a visual medium.

This video explain about 786:


This is an old video of Haj(it is islamic propaganda/devotional video). But, it corroborates the following:
]Muslims shave their head and beard and don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean and with holy seamless white sheets.
Mute the video, cover the title of the video, and show the video to someone from 1:13 to 2:27, they will think that its a hindu pilgrimage:


Anyone who has even cursory knowledge of Hindu customs and attires during pilgrimage can easily see that the above video matches it perfectly.

But, just to make a comparative point, I am posting videos of same rituals done by Hindus during pilgrimage:

This is a video of tonsure/head-shaving at the bank of Ganga(0:51 onwards):


This video illustrates attires:


---
Ramana garu,
there is one more thing:
I was reading about a conversation between Rama Tirtha and a group of Islamic scholars, when they came to meet him. He was also making thew same point that Islam is nothing but a misunderstood and corrupt form of Hinduism/Vedic religion. Obviously, the muslims were not ready to accept this theory, so he tried to make his point by showing how AUM(sacred vedic sound) is part of Koran, yes Koran.
Rama replied gently: ‘Please listen to what is now being said. In the very beginning of your Koran, at the top, are three letters, alif (A), lam (L) and mim (M). Can any of you or any learned Mulawi of Islam explain what these three letters mean?' The Moslems replied that this was a secret which Allah had kept to himself. Swami Rama laughed heartily at this remark and said: ‘When God has revealed the entire Koran for the benefit of mankind, as the Muslims claim, it is very strange that he has kept its very heading a secret. No. It is not so. If you, the Muslims who put full faith in the Koran do not know the secret of the letters A, L, M, Rama will tell you what they signify. Alif, lam and mim are nothing but alif (A), wao (O) and mim (M), that is, AOM or OM.'

The Muslims objected that the letter L is not the same as the letter O, but Swami Rama pointed out to them that in Arabic grammar L is pronounced O when it falls between a vowel and a consonant, as in the names Shamsuddin, which is written Shamsaldin, or Nizamuddin, which is written Nizamaldin. The letter lam (L) becomes silent and gives the sound of the Arabic letter pesh (O or U). Therefore ALM is no secret; it is clearly and unambiguously OM and nothing but OM. It is Kufra, heretical or a sin, to blame God for keeping it a secret.
-----
Ramana garu,
I was searching youtube for the above videos, when I came across an interesting video. The below video uses the same info that I posted last night. Moreover, the time when the video is posted is just after I posted it in TSP thread. More interestingly, it is a rabid EJ account. So, some EJ lurker took the info and made a video.

[youtube]74FpCxzhJaQ&feature=plcp[/youtube]

As you see, EJs won't mind using the above info.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

Maha-e(i)shwra directly translate as AOA .
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Why Muslims Are Becoming the Best Evangelists
Its a Long Interrsting Article
fter traveling 250,000 miles through Dar al-Islam ("House of Islam") as Muslims call their world, career missiologist David Garrison came to a startling conclusion:Muslim background believers are leading Muslims to Christ in staggering numbers, but not in the West. They are doing this primarily in Muslim-majority nations almost completely under the radar—of everyone. In the new book, A Wind in the House of Islam: How God is Drawing Muslims Around the World to Faith in Jesus Christ, Garrison takes the reader on his journey through what he describes as the nine rooms in the Muslim-majority world: Indo-Malaysia, East Africa, North Africa, Eastern South Asia, Western South Asia, Persia, Turkestan, West Africa, and the Arab world. Muslims in each of those regions have created indigenous, voluntary movements to Christ."What did God use to bring you to faith in Jesus Christ? Tell me your story." This was the core question Garrison asked as he traveled and conducted more than 1,000 face-to-face interviews. In his background research, he documented 82 historic Muslim movements to Christ, consisting of either at least 1,000 baptisms or 100 new church starts over a two-decade period. The first sizable movement of Muslims toward Christianity did not occur until the mid-19th century, nearly 1,300 years after Mohammad established Islam. Garrison said 69 of these movements today are still in process:
• In Algeria, after 100,000 died in Muslim-on-Muslim violence, 10,000 Muslims turned their backs on Islam and were baptized as followers of Christ. This movement has tripled since the late 1990s.
• At the time of the 1979 revolution in Iran, about 500 individual Muslims were following Christ. Garrison projects that today there may be several hundred thousand Christ-followers, mostly worshipping in Iranian house churches.• In an unnamed Arab nation, an Islamic book publisher Nasr came to Christ through satellite broadcast evangelist Father Zakaria. Sensing a call to evangelize, Nasr started a local ministry that in less than one year baptized 2,800 individuals.
In total, Garrison estimates that 2 to 7 million people from a Muslim background worldwide now follow Christ. (This is a projection since a comprehensive count is not possible.) Timothy C. Morgan, CT senior editor, global journalism, interviewed Garrison recently.You've spent your professional life in missions. Why undertake 30 months of grueling travel to remote parts of the Muslim world that you already visited?

This really marks an unprecedented turning to Christ. I don't think it's ever been captured in a global sweep as it has been here.I've been involved in missions for 29 years. When my wife and I were working with Libyan Arabs in North Africa, we learned a lot of ways not to effectively win Muslims to Christ. But then we started seeing these movements. The numbers began to grow over the years. We found ourselves living in India for six years. I was director of Southern Baptist work in South Asia. We were able to see many of these Muslims who had come to Christ, to know them personally, and partner with them. We knew two men, one named Islam and the other named Mohammed, doing mosque-to-mosque evangelism. They were distributing Jesus films and New Testaments in the mosques. They saw a lot of Muslims come to Christ.My colleagues approached me and said, "We're hearing more and more anecdotes of Muslim movements to Christ, and some of them we feel are legitimate. We need someone to go and find out
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

Snake on Scorpion And Scorpion on Snake View
Last edited by Prem on 24 Apr 2014 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

What is Imam Bhukari fulminating about when his flock is being led away! Demanding votes for his patron Italian Sonia Gandhi?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Agnimitra and Bji

A book in German on Fascism in Islam by Hamed Abdel-Samed

Hamed Abdel-Samad - Der islamische Faschismus: Eine Analyse
Islamism was parallel to Italian Fascism and National Socialism. His fascist ideology, however, goes back much further - it's already in the original Islam created. Hamed Abdel-Samad suggests in his analysis of an arc from the origins of Islam to the present day. The basic features of fascism shine through everywhere; in the organizational structure as well as in religion, which is always about the people.
An important book, whose theses Hamed Abdel-Samad brought in a death fatwa. Only the unmasked Islamism.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by member_22733 »

Jhujar wrote:Snake on Scorpion And Scorpion on Snake View
Um so its ok to call an islamist Madarc***d and Behenc**d, coz its Allah Kareem?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:Agnimitra, In the end Islam boils down to Hallal and Haram (H&H): Commanding what is Right and Forbidding what is Wrong. Right and Wrong are what Muhammad is purported to have dreamed of.

Can you write an essay on your blog on this subject and post a link in one or two months?
ramana ji, here's a first draft - I just blogged this. Is this the sort of thing you were looking for?

Policy and Law: Moral consequences in the Here and Hereafter
Sections:
1. Dharma - Personal Fountainhead
2. Religious-Ideological 'Scripture' - Impersonal Template
3. Empiricism vs. Legalism
4. Law, Policy and Interpersonal Culture
5. Justice and Mercy
6. Honesty and Introspection
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by RajeshA »

Image
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Madhusudhan »

lol why have a picture???
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by chetak »

Madhusudhan wrote:lol why have a picture???
so that anybody and everybody can proudly say that their daughter is a "doctor", without fear of contradiction

This is proudly displayed in all saudi homes :rotfl:
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Agnimitra, if you think about it, Islam is a subaltern empowerment program. What Mohd did was to take all the subalterns and empower them with a dogma and a religion and never looked back. This is its unique aspect which keeps the flock together once they buy into it.

Offcourse he was following in footsteps of Abraham who did the same to the subalterns of his age against the Egyptian pharohs.


The latest version was Marx and his Communism. Same dogma.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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ramana wrote:Agnimitra, if you think about it, Islam is a subaltern empowerment program. What Mohd did was to take all the subalterns and empower them with a dogma and a religion and never looked back. This is its unique aspect which keeps the flock together once they buy into it.

Offcourse he was following in footsteps of Abraham who did the same to the subalterns of his age against the Egyptian pharohs.

The latest version was Marx and his Communism. Same dogma.
Absolutely. Islam, even today in its propaganda, projects itself as the vengeance of the have-nots against the haves, of the simpletons against the sophisticates. Even spiritually this has been turned into a metaphor - reaching a state of elevation is "beh kamaal e nadaari" (in Farsi) - "by the magic of not-having". That is, by the freedom of having nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

A famous Islamic anecdote is that an emissary was sent by Muhammad (pbuh) to the contemporary Byzantine Caesar, Heraclius. A letter was presented announcing his Prophetic Mission and to accept Islam. What supposedly followed was a catechism of the emissary by Heraclius. One of the questions was whether most of Muhammad's followers were the poor and disadvantaged members of society. To which the emissary replied in the affirmative, and Heraclius went into silence, impressed and deeply thoughtful. So the story goes.

There is a stream throughout Islamic literature of subversion and being anti-establishment. Of fighting 'injustice' in society. Of Allah's pleasure in 'humiliating' the rich and powerful and their hubris. Of wresting their possessions from them and distributing it among the hitherto deprived faithful. Of rubbishing the arcane and convoluted 'philosophies' of elitist priesthoods and replacing it with the simple awe of God and community spirit.

Note that this was also a note struck by early Christianity within the Roman Empire. Edward Gibbons in his 'Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire' also spoke of it. India is the last remaining classical civilization. If we want to survive, this tendency for class systems and analysis paralysis has to be taken into consideration.

Head, Heart & Connectedness: Browsing the marketplace of identities

In the table in the above blogpost, Islam is like a "Not-Is-ness".
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

I figured that out while driving to work today: Pharoahs of Egypt, Abraham, subaltern studies, empowering the oppressed, why the faithful never leave Islam, P Gopal and her bolivations. Suddenly it clicked that isalm is a subaltern empowerment mechanism that ensures they will be left without recourse if they venture out. Of course there is the apostasy angle.
Abe and Marx were the alpha and omega of this stream. Now Abe made it exclusive to those born into it and thus self limited his pool. Marx lost when there was a serious opposition to it in the form of Capitalism led by US which showed and exploited its weakness such that the adherents rejected it.


So the subaltersn if they find it oppressive to be in it they will reject it.

KSA and TSP are two examples of how they can make horrible for their adherents.

Whats needed is a downward economic dhakka.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by brihaspati »

ramana wrote:I figured that out while driving to work today: Pharoahs of Egypt, Abraham, subaltern studies, empowering the oppressed, why the faithful never leave Islam, P Gopal and her bolivations. Suddenly it clicked that isalm is a subaltern empowerment mechanism that ensures they will be left without recourse if they venture out. Of course there is the apostasy angle.
Abe and Marx were the alpha and omega of this stream. Now Abe made it exclusive to those born into it and thus self limited his pool. Marx lost when there was a serious opposition to it in the form of Capitalism led by US which showed and exploited its weakness such that the adherents rejected it.


So the subaltersn if they find it oppressive to be in it they will reject it.

KSA and TSP are two examples of how they can make horrible for their adherents.

Whats needed is a downward economic dhakka.

Given all else equal a totalitarian regime falls when it relaxes its grip. Marxists had a fatal flaw, they were bound by ideology to promote some degree of liberalism on treatment of women+education+so-called progressive "values" which overlap with post Christian, post Napoleon European liberal rhetoric.

Islamic society will never fall on its own, as it will always provide satisfaction for some of the darkest corners of the human psyche. Economic crash maybe deftly turned into actually a benefit for Islamic society by mullahcracy by blaming the crash on deviation from Islam, and temporarily justify a more primitive lifestyle potentially supported by the classical looting model of jihad, that solves multiple Islamic dilemmas at that stage.

Economic crash plus overwhelming externally mounted military defeat targeting post defeat complete removal of Islamic institutions might be the only effective route.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana ji,

B ji is right. Unlike Communism, Islam has psycho-spiritual undercurrents it can tap into in order to cope with material losses. It is a peculiar combination of material and spiritual curents of a particular type. It will require external power (not necessarily "force") to systematically and completely undo this.

Owais and Owaisi: Two halves of Jarasandha
But conceived another way, an Adharmic context will keep causing a series of convulsions to justify its dogma and/or collectivized caste-order, and it can be contained (or better annihilated) only by an outside force.
It takes a Bhima to undo a Jarasandha. But it wasn't just Bhima's sheer "force" that undid it. He had to follow a specific procedure (sourced from K.) to split that body along its primal divide, and keep the two parts of Jarasandha from joining together again and revivifying.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by RajeshA »

Engine of Hope in Islam

There are several mechanisms in Islam which make it become bust-proof. One of them is the collective mission of becoming a single collective in control over whole of humanity. It is the hope that that would one day come to pass, that keeps them driven, motivated.

That hope is based on
  1. Enticement Capacity (e.g. Gulf money, Gulf jobs)
  2. Intimidation Capacity (at local level)
  3. Solidarity (Jihad, Dawa, Wali, Hajj, Masjid, Community, Collective Victimization, Ummah, ...)
  4. Virility and Fertility (4 wives, Marrying/conquering most prominent Kufr women, Love Jihad, Rape Jihad, 72 virgins, maximum children, ownership over Muslim women, ...)
  5. Pedagogic Control
  6. Ideological Invincibility (Allah's message and Prophet, Immunity for Ulema among Kufr, Kufr Respect for Sufism)
  7. Entitlement
  8. Psychological Strength (no respect for man-made and Kufr laws and considerations, myth of physical prowess of Muslim)
As long as Hope is there, Islamic Machine would continue its march forward.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Anand K »

In this age, the absolute breakdown of central political control and a functioning economy in Muslim countries (even in an monarchy like KSA) might make Muslim communities coalesce among mosque 'parishes' - the fundamental social unit. That is, if they are allowed to continue to practice their faith. Geographic consolidations with almost fully contained spartan economies. In each unit there will be alliances between a strongman and the Alim but in the long run a redux of the Saudi-Wahabi rise will occur. They might collaborate to an extent with the invader, if there was such an agent which caused the breakdown in the first place, but retain cohesiveness. Something like the Jewish communities after the Exodus perhaps but unable to make fundamental changes to the faith unlike the Jews did? We saw this in Muslim Russia (weathered 200 years in pretty good form) and in Mongol ruled Muslim lands and in the Reconquista (for some time at least). In the last case no quarter was given and mass deportations/executions were undertaken. In Commie Russia Muslim communities were forcefully replanted but they could maintain a level of cultural-religious existence.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

RajeshA wrote:Engine of Hope in Islam
...
  1. Enticement Capacity (e.g. Gulf money, Gulf jobs)
  2. Intimidation Capacity (at local level)
  3. Solidarity (Jihad, Dawa, Wali, Hajj, Masjid, Community, Collective Victimization, Ummah, ...)
  4. Virility and Fertility (4 wives, Marrying/conquering most prominent Kufr women, Love Jihad, Rape Jihad, 72 virgins, maximum children, ownership over Muslim women, ...)
  5. Pedagogic Control
  6. Ideological Invincibility (Allah's message and Prophet, Immunity for Ulema among Kufr, Kufr Respect for Sufism)
  7. Entitlement
  8. Psychological Strength (no respect for man-made and Kufr laws and considerations, myth of physical prowess of Muslim)
It goes even deeper RajeshA ji / B ji. There are memes of abnegation, liberation and transcendence, also in Islamism. Qur'an says this material world (dunya) is mere illusory child's play and timepass (lahbun wa lahwun). It must be recognized that Islam's mechanisms go much deeper than material savagery. It encompasses all 4 purushaarthas, including release (moksha) of different kinds.

Owais and Owaisi: Two halves of Jarasandha
Owais said, "I wanted a high position in life, I found it in modesty. I wanted leadership, I found it in giving advice. I wanted dignity, I found it in honesty. I wanted greatness, I found it in poverty. I wanted lineage, I found it in virtue. I wanted majesty, I found it in contentment. I looked for peace and found it in asceticism."
The real difference between Islam and Dharma is that Islam is a shadow-Dharma. It has all the parts, or an outline of all the parts - in reductionist form.

To supplant Islam, one also needs a real spiritual movement. To supplant Islam, one needs not just a "Not-Is-ness", but all 4 types of Consideration in the chart here:

Types of Consideration

The trans-generational career of the Sikh Gurus merits greater study in this respect. I don't think that story is over yet.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Re: Soviet Era - plenty of cases of devout leaders fleeing into the mountains and staying there in caves and the like for decades. Raising spartan communities there over 2 generations. Then their progeny came back down to the awe and disbelief of society after the break-up of the USSR. They weren't really having orgies up in the mountains for 2 generations. But they were picking a bigger fight.

Who can make the bigger sacrifice (यज्ञः)? That's the question.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Agnimitra, I have a cursory understanding of Guru Nanak's work. I felt he was a genius with what little I did know. How about exploring the work in GDF?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana ji -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhzWAplVvZI

:)

Maybe SBajwa ji and Jhujar ji and others can take the lead.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

I want your type of analyses so it can be diseminated to all.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

[quoteMaybe SBajwa ji and Jhujar ji and others can take the lead.[/quote]
I have been listening to Chandi di War & the battle resembles Modi, Bhakat of Durga, fighting the Congdanavs and Daits.Hoping the conclusion at the end of 15 Years of Modi regime will be similar to this battle. Nehru, Doggie, Kejri, Jairam, Sibal are all there with different names. Moral was/is only Kali Roop will fnish the Paappis and Paapipoots.

SBajwa
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by SBajwa »

Here is more about Chandi Di Var.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandi_di_Var

Chandi == Durga
Vaar = typically a poem that is composed in "Veer Ras" i.e. Battle poem, as oppose to "Hasya Ras" i.e. Comedy or "Prem Ras" Ghazals.
SBajwa
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by SBajwa »

Here are the Guru Nanak Dev's composition from SGGS

Agnimitra
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:Agnimitra, I have a cursory understanding of Guru Nanak's work. I felt he was a genius with what little I did know. How about exploring the work in GDF?
ramana ji, the thing that stands out about Guru Nanak Dev ji is that - unlike most other contemporary Vaishnava Bhakti spiritual leaders - he actually instituted social practices to break through the blockages within the Dharmic body politic rather than just singing about it. E.g. casteism, blind ritualism or fetishes like vegetarianism, etc. He was willing to risk ostracism from within Dharmic society itself in order to do this - e.g., when he cooked and served meat prasaada at Kurukshetra, and all the gotric-Brahmins of Kurukshetra condemned him. GN ji's point was that the entire food chain ultimately comes from water, and the realization of that is primary, rather than thinking of humans as 'dirty' or 'clean' based on vegetarian diet (while he honored the goodness of that lifestyle in general). OTOH, most other Bhakti leaders typically went out of their way to be purer than the pure and reinforce existing fetishes (based on the psychology of guilt or disgust). Similarly, GN ji held langars in which people of all castes would break bread together. Later langar was institutionalized. And so on.

I just made this post on the Indo-Japan thread: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1659212
Surasena ji, yes I'm aware of the above. Therefore, having recognized that the Christianist thought-virus is more dangerous than Western military might, the best solution is to "vaccinate" the Japanese society against it. That inoculation must include the virus itself - in a controlled quantity administered with a controlling contextual medium (Shintoism in this case). This way the half-truth on which the deracinating thought-virus operates is subsumed, and the deracination is prevented - or looped back in full circle.

OTOH, an "anti-venom" formulated to fight against such foreign and malignant thought-viruses is only a stop-gap measure for immediate short-term protection and relief. The longer-term solution is inoculation. The inoculation formula has to be got right.

Thus, an overall strategy would be:
1. Make sure the Dharmic "immune system" is spiritually vigorous and creative throughout the body politic. That means ensuring healthy, unblocked flows of sanskaras, knowledge, skills, privileges, wealth and even genetics within the society.
2. Always have a strong "anti-venom" to different foreign thought-viruses on hand, in the event of aggressive proselytism to vulnerable sections.
3. Creatively engage with and formulate an "inoculation" for all existing foreign thought-viruses and their constantly mutating forms aimed at deracinating one from a Dharmic system. [If used successfully, this inoculating medium could even transform a half-true thought-virus into a useful sort of "growth hormone" for better ideas, and a "mercy" of sorts. All "kripa" is the product of one's own half-truths being subsumed by a Guru and converted into an opportunity for growth.]

Doing these 3 constantly is what creates keeps Dharma alive - by changing itself to respond to the changing illusions around it, and thereby maintain its underlying essence unmolested.

I was saying that - just as several Indic Gurus have done this down the ages, there might be a similar inoculation formula in Japan (though I have no idea whether Abe has anything to do with it).

It would be interesting to think what factors made a section of Korea succumb to Christianism so much more easily than Japan.
Guru Nanak Dev ji addressed all 3 of the above:
1. Removing blockages and restoring the "immune system" of Dharmic society.
2. Creating an immediate "anti-venom" to prevalent thought-viruses - whether those thought-viruses were being used on vulnerable masses by the Islamist or the casteist priesthoods.
3. Formulating a wonderful "inoculation" using certain memes from those malignant ideologies. And even using those very memes to act as agents of growth and creativity of a new spirituality as a "mercy" to contemporary society.

All 3 were addressed by Guru Nanak Dev ji, and fleshed out to different extents by the other successor Gurus.
Prem
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

I just noticed the Arabic word Allah looks like the tip of Lord Shiva's Trishul. 3 pieces of puzzle now match, Shivling, Crescent Moon and now the tip of Trishul with Dandi missing ..
Prem
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

http://twitpic.com/dj2ogz
Penis Banned For Looking Like Allah
( Click to see the Culprit)
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Wahab-> Deoband-> Pakistan> Taliban & Al Qeeda->Jihad

The Arabs are mere tools in this Deobandi jihad to control Islam.
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