Understanding Islamic Society

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Nov 2014 08:42

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 74048.html
"Buried Christian Empire Casts New Light on Early Islam"

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 16 Nov 2014 11:07

Gets the vicious circle perfectly:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2014/09/17/fatwa/

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Nov 2014 19:29

Cross-posting 2 [1] [2] posts by Anujan from "Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014" Thread

The labeling of groups that fall out of favor as Indian and American proxies is actually well thought out strategy in Pakistan. Pakistan was for Keedas and Talibs, except when Unkil gave them money and shoved a bamboo up musharraf's musharraf, he had to give up some of their brethren. Like the dozen or so Al-Libis, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Remzi Binalshibh and so on. Now you can either convince Pakis with complicated explanations as to why supporting Al Qaeda is not sustainable but supporting Afghan Taliban and Cashmere-focussed Mujahids is, but Pakis are not going to buy that explanation. On the other hand "They are Jews" is an easier explanation. So you see this canard about uncircumcised people who attacked karachi and so on. After reading so many articles and talking to so many people, I got a lightbulb "aha" moment when I realized that

Paki public opinion is forged not by what people do, but who they are

So a group that burns a bunch of people in a Kiln (which is what happened to the Christian folks) is okay, if those people are pious. Similarly, a group that slaughters Ahmadis, Shias and sets off a few in Lahore and Karachi is okay as long as those people are pious too. On the other hand, US giving out aid and marking their food packets as USAID is totally not okay, because that is from Kafir YYY people.

The quickest way to fight against the TTP is to label them Indian, American, Afghan and Israeli proxies. Similarly the quickest way to rally public opinion against the Baloch is to label them Indian proxies. That is what birdie num num told MMS and MMS in his diplomatic stupidity told "he will look into it". Motorma Fair latched on to it, and was in her equal equal avatar when she declared "Both India and Pakistan support proxies in each others territory". My fourth cousin keeps needling her about this. Even bringing up the "Lets give Pakistan a nuke deal" article that she wrote (her response to it? She suggested it to expose Pakistan's nuke perfidy. Which is a weakass defence because Pakistan's nuke perfidy vis-a-vis AQ Khan was fully known then).

That was the old Motormar Fair. The Motorma Fair that you see now, is working on popularizing her new hypothesis that Pakistan is not a security state, but a greedy state that will not rest even if it captures whole of Afghanistan and JK. We, ofcourse knew all this. Hamid Gul is on the record saying that India is a fragile arch and JK is the keystone which if dislodged will cause the whole country to shatter into a million pieces. There is persistent obsession in Pakiland about 10,000 insurgencies in India and how India is on the verge of breaking up and collapse. But the new Motorma Fair has just discovered this and is ofcourse fascinated by this new discovery that she has latched on to and gives gyaan about it to SDREs themselves in various talks*

Anyway coming back to the original point
Paki public opinion is forged not by what people do, but who they are

The talibs will win Pakistan if they convince everyone that the TFTAs and Civvies are essentially Kafir American stooges.

*Ofcourse I am not complaining. SDREs too are stupid, like the moron who asked the question "But most Pakis I met wanted to sing Kumbaya!! Why are you casting aspersion on Pakistan that can be misused by Rightwing elements in India?"

First a meta-point. People view others as they view themselves. You have to understand this. A typical Paki thinks India supports terrorism in Pakistan, because Pakistan supports terrorism in India and that is what normal countries do. So Israel, US and India support terrorism in Pakistan. Now no amount of convincing the Paki that India does not support terrorism is going to work. It is like convincing a typical abdul that other abduls have three nuts instead of two.

A typical Indian thinks Pakistan wants peace with India because India wants peace with her neighbours and that is what normal countries do. So Pakistan wants peace with India. No amount of terror attacks will convince majority of SDREs that Pakistan is irreconcilably hostile. Mumbai attacks? Well those were done by extremists without state support and there are extremists on both sides. I have seen SDREs on twitter comparing RSS with Taliban and Al Qaeda (fellows, have a sense of scale. Al Qaeda slit Daniel Pearl's throat and sent videos of it to news agencies). Because a typical "Extremist" that SDREs have encountered are those people who have an opinion and are willing to argue for it. So Pakistanis want peace and their extremists are like our "extremists".

Goras too see India and Pakistan the way they seem themselves but there are two things that Gora Sahibs get confused by. That is, how irrational India and Pakistan are.

Goras think: Supporting terrorists is okay, but once there is a blowback we should fight and kill them immediately. That is what they did with Keedas and Talibs. But Pakistan thinks supporting terrorism should be continued irrespective of blowback. Goras get taken in by this again and again. They think "Talibs have attacked Pakistan, now if we give more money to Pakistan, they will attack and take out the talibs". Pakistan doesnt. Pakistan wont. They love talibs till death do them apart. Will continue to support them till they completely burn.

Goras think: Terrorists have attacked India, now India is going to nuke Pakistan. In fact GWB is reported to have said about the Mumbai attack "This is an act of war, Indians are going to retaliate and retaliate hard". But SDREs view terror attacks as an inconvenience. Somewhere between a traffic jam and a flood. They certainly arent going to nuke anyone due to a flood. They think accelerating composite dialog will solve terror and there are no option except talks, strong and stable Pakistan is in India's interest etc etc. Similarly Goras think "Oh, we funded Yahoos in Syria to overthrow Assad so surely SDREs are funding and training yahoos in Pakistan". Turns out SDREs arent. Because a strong and stable Pakistan....

The moment they realize SDREs want talks at all cost and Pakis want terrorism at all costs, they go write a book and give talks about it. "Hey look!! what I found!! A new species of brown people who are completely unlike us!!" Which is exactly what Smt. Fair did.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Nov 2014 00:21

Cross-posting a post from "Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014" Thread

Anujan ji,

great post.

Anujan wrote:A typical Indian thinks Pakistan wants peace with India because India wants peace with her neighbours and that is what normal countries do. So Pakistan wants peace with India. No amount of terror attacks will convince majority of SDREs that Pakistan is irreconcilably hostile. Mumbai attacks? Well those were done by extremists without state support and there are extremists on both sides. I have seen SDREs on twitter comparing RSS with Taliban and Al Qaeda (fellows, have a sense of scale. Al Qaeda slit Daniel Pearl's throat and sent videos of it to news agencies). Because a typical "Extremist" that SDREs have encountered are those people who have an opinion and are willing to argue for it. So Pakistanis want peace and their extremists are like our "extremists".

At some level I think we also make the mistake of thinking that Pakistani public think logically, perhaps like us and they analyze the facts and judge according to some right and wrong, independent of "religion".

They on the other hand may simply be thinking not on basis of right or wrong, but on basis of us vs them, and facts are changed to fit that perspective. It is immaterial what level of terror or aggression they may have carried out, it is not aggression if it is not on them.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 20 Nov 2014 04:43

Here is my take on Sunni Islamic problem in the world today

Most nations which have a Sunni population of over 5%, have instances where they start demanding for their religious rights. You see instances like
1. People praying publicly in parking lots, office conference rooms etc... with no regard to convenience of others
2. Public processions during Ramazan
3. Concentration of Sunnis in certain areas, with the street law in these areas being very different
It starts getting progressively worst as the Sunni population percentage goes up. IMHO France can be considered at one end of the spectrum, Iraq is at the other

Now if you look at nations which have Sunni majority like Saudi, then no such rights are given to minorities there. In such cases Saudi is at one end and Pakis are the worst case scenario.

This broad difference comes due to basic narrow mindedness and lack of genuine education in Sunni Islam.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2014 04:46

You need to create a heat map using various shades of green to show your ideas.

wig · Post by **wig** » 20 Nov 2014 15:01

Muslim 'apostates' come out of hiding in Europe

A number of Muslims in Europe are publicly abandoning their religion to become Christians or agnostics despite their former community's taboo against such acts.

In France, the film "The Apostle" by filmmaker Cheyenne Carron has meanwhile lifted the veil on "apostasy" by telling the story of a young Muslim who converted to Catholicism and how he had trouble getting family and friends to accept his choice.

"It is time for us to stop hiding," said Pastor Said Oujibou, 46, who left radical Islam for evangelical protestantism and who is among the few converts to have publicized his decision in France.

He said he is "tolerated" by his former co-religionists, even if he admits to having sparked "sarcasm and annoyance" from them.
But he warned against the "double talk" that certain branches of Islam in France close to the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists use toward apostate Muslims.

"Apostasy is a taboo in Muslim culture and if the text of the Quran does not provide for any punishment, prophetic tradition calls for killing apostates," said Radouane Attiya, a former preacher trained in Saudi Arabia who is now a specialist on Islam at Liege University in Belgium.

Specialists said that more people become Muslim in Europe than leave the faith but Muslims converting to Christianity, especially evangelical protestantism, are on the rise, according to Oujibou.

Evangelicals seek to proselytise in working class and immigrant neighbourhoods where there are many Muslims.

"In Europe, as in Arab countries, there is a rampant atheism gaining ground. But what is new is the search for visibility," Attiya said.

He said "Islamic radicalism, world jihadism are contributing to the emergence of a reverse radicalism."
Ahmed, a Belgian engineer in his forties, abandoned Islam because he said he rejected the "total control" his former religion has over people's lives.

Ahmed spoke only on condition of anonymity and said he was also "fed up with the omnipresence of fundamentalists," and what he called "the hypocrisy of Islam."

He joined a group that fights Muslim "indoctrination," one that has around ten members, "very little financial means" and a website publicising the books of Robert Spencer, an American anti-Muslim blogger who has been accused of racism and incitement to hatred.

Similar organisations have existed for several years in Britain and Germany, made up of Iranian exiles.

In September, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany called for a protest against a handful of Salafists who proclaimed themselves "police of the Sharia," Islamic law, in the western city of Wuppertal.

"It's true," Ahmed said, "that somehow we join the extreme right, but Islam is also the extreme right. It's up to us to clean house."

Imtiaz Shams, 25, who comes from what he calls a "very conservative" Muslim family in London, may not be an activist like Ahmed.

But he renounced his faith before his family two years ago and joined an "underground community" for former Muslims that now numbers around 300 people in London.

"We do weekly meet-ups, we take care of each other. This is not even the tip of the iceberg. It's a couple of ice cubes on top of the iceberg," Shams said.

"We don't really fit in with the activist ex-Muslim stuff. It's more personal," he said.

He said it is very difficult for Muslims to "come out" before their families.

"People feel hurt, because they feel like you are rejecting something, almost spitting in their face even if you have respect for their faith," he said.

For his mother, it's also "the fear that my child is going to hell." He estimated that there may be around 10,000 agnostics among London's Muslim community of 600,000.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 215746.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2014 20:02

From the cauldron into the fire!!!!

Converting from Islam to Protestant Christianity!!!!

Anujan, Have you heard commentaries on Devi Bhagavatam?

Big Mo if he existed looks like a version of Bandasura.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Nov 2014 20:57

Fragility of Islamic Society

Islam tends to have a certain psychological effect on an individual ascribing to it in an Islamic Society. In an Islamic Society, there is always a certain pressure on an individual to nurture his pride, his aggressive side, and most importantly, his piety, his dedication to the Islamic cause and customs. What pride means in an Islamic context is defined by Islam itself.

Entitlement as mentioned earlier is a primary characteristic of Islamic Society, and this is practiced as much on the Kufr as within the Islamic Society itself. Crimes like robbery, extortion, kidnapping for ransom, corruption, etc in Pakistan are good examples of Entitlement being applied in one's own society against other Muslims.

Sectarian flare-ups often have greed and land-disputes as motivation.

Often calls for more Islam are a call for purging this behavior. People call out for more stringent punishments for increasing crime rate, like whipping, cutting off of hands, etc. when they speak of "more Islam". Perhaps people in Islamic Society fail to realize that Islam, directly or indirectly leads to such behavior.

Principle of Entitlement and Conditioning to be Aggressive means crime is unavoidable.

When Islam turns inwards and starts feeding on its own flock, then people have only two choices - reject Islam or demand a more purer form of Islam. The first option is never on the table, for reasons of own Islamic conditioning but also due to an individual being caught up in a network of peers with similar conditioning, pushing the same line of thought. Over this entire Islamic Society sits a pall of terror, that any apostate behavior can mean severe consequences for oneself and for one's family. So the only option left is "still purer Islam".

No one can get off the tiger!

The other characteristic in Islam is the Principle of Protection. The "leaders" are supposed to give protection, whereas the common folk, are supposed to give the "leaders" their unqualified support. In Islam, there is an inbuilt insecurity for any "leader". There are always others willing to usurp his power and his people, should the others notice his weakness. So the Wali is almost always an authoritarian badass, whose path others should dare not cross. There may be some people who are interested in working for him, or willing to challenge him in the future, but there is also a vast majority of people who are simply happy being Sheep and being herded around at the will of the Wali.

This feeling of being pledged to some Wali, some Feudal Lord, some Mullah, some Islamic Charity Organization to receive protection and morsels, let's call it, Sheepism is just as strong as say Islam. Usually the Wali works under the Islamic umbrella, but what if not?

The Principle of Protection runs on power. He who shows he is the strongest and lays claim on the herd of human sheep, promising protection to the herd, receives the pledge of loyalty of the herd to follow. The "loyalty" of the herd is for the taking by anyone willing to assert his power over the herd's current leadership, and Sheepism runs just as strong in Islamic Society, as piety.

True a Kufr would not be welcomed to take control over the herd as that would go against the herd's Islamic piety, but beggars cannot be choosers and Sheep don't get to decide who is the Herdsman! Sheep have learned to respect power through their long years in Islam.

It is for the Herdsman, for the new Wali, to decide how to condition the Sheep, to what Islamic sect or to which other identification.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 21 Nov 2014 22:46

ramana wrote:From the cauldron into the fire!!!!

Converting from Islam to Protestant Christianity!!!!

Anujan, Have you heard commentaries on Devi Bhagavatam?

Big Mo if he existed looks like a version of Bandasura.

Bhavishya Puran says Mahamad (Pro Mo) was the incarnation of tripurasura.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 25 Nov 2014 12:17

Debates around Sharia Law seem to have started a TwitterStorm.

BBC Article:#BBCtrending: Why some Arabs are rejecting Sharia law

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 25 Nov 2014 16:30

I was at a conference two weeks ago, and one of the presenters was a Paki.
In his PPT, the slide on the size of the market size stated it as 'Middle East Sales'. This including Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Iran and Pakistan.

I could only think of the BENIS thread when I saw that. This urge to belong to a Middle Eastern identity is plain moronic, but also intrinsic to the Paki DNA. They can't have pride in their local roots, as it would imply having a Hindu past, and the Arabs and Persians don't think they belong - what a conundrum.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 26 Nov 2014 02:59

To understand the logic behind actions of Muslims one has to start with understanding their funaments.

1 You are on the earth temperary and have to follow Allah to go to heaven.
2 People who do not pertain to your belief are misled and must be converted.
3 Liberal ideas like "you should be allowed to choose what you belief in" must be rejected. It is the first thing they teach children.
4 All is fair in implementing gods will on earth.
5 Compromize is weakness. Never give up.
6 As no one will compromize, there will always be conflict even among brothers, sons, fathers etc. An external enemy is essential to maintan peace among friends.

Suddenly one will start to realize the logic behind Islamic nations.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 01 Dec 2014 17:34

Yeh lo ji,

Westernized Indian muslims against Arabaized Indian Muslims.

http://movies.ndtv.com/television/gauah ... oot-706433

Actress Gauahar Khan, who was slapped by an audience member while she was hosting the finale episode of TV reality show India's Raw Star in Mumbai, has found support from many quartets across Bollywood with colleagues and fans rushing to condemn the act on social networking sites.

Gauahar was attacked and threatened by an audience member who said that, "being a Muslim woman, she should not have worn such a short dress", Aarey Colony police said.

The accused, identified as Mohammed Akil Mallic, slapped and touched her inappropriately during the break of the show, but was immediately overpowered by the security guards deployed there, following which the police were notified. The incident took place at Film City in Mumbai's suburban Goregaon on Sunday, police said.

Senior inspector at Aarey police station, Vilas Chavan, told PTI that the accused was subsequently arrested and booked under Indian Penal Code sections 323 (punishment for voluntarily causing hurt), 354 (assault or criminal force to woman with intent to outrage her modesty) and 506 (punishment for criminal intimidation).

Mr Mallick will be produced before the court today.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2014 04:33

She has a TV presence for quite sometime.
She wasn't wearing a burkha
She wasn't claiming to be a Muslim unlike the other Bollywood mavens.

So what made the man mistake her?

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 02 Dec 2014 12:15

Dear RajeshA ji and JohneeG ji, I want to thank you for your lucid and illuminative writings. Wondering how I missed this thread in the past. This thread is a keeper. How I wish our mainstream media reads BR threads like this one, STFUP and others!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2014 14:03

schinnas ji,

thank you. Glad that you feel this way!

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 02 Dec 2014 14:14

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Dec 2014 19:01

X Posting here too:

Ok, here is an article on the Gauahar Khan slap. I think the author wants to say something and then does an equal equal to keep the flak away (I guess):http://www.dailyo.in/laugh/gauahar-khan ... 1/880.html

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 05 Dec 2014 09:35

http://www.indiatvnews.com/crime/news/1 ... -7171.html

"The accused, all from Bihar, have been identified. Two of them, identified as Sahjad and Anwar, have been arrested while the search for the rest is on," a police official said.

Oppressed minorities in India exercising their right of first access to natural resources.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Dec 2014 10:05

And one more.
Panchayat asks rape survivor to accept money and undergo abortion
The girl has lodged a compliant against Riyaz and his relatives Gul Mohamed, Munna and Mahinaz Alam. When Riyaz raped her, the three stood guard outside, the girl said in the complaint. The police official said about half a dozen similar cases had been reported in the police station in the recent past. “Since Kishanganj is a Muslim-majority district bordering Bangladesh, most of the victims come from that community,” Ms. Gupta said.

In the Islamic society guess every single crime, can be ignored if the right amount of money is paid

.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Dec 2014 10:37

The love of victimhood:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2014/11/05/suck/

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Dec 2014 18:12

I cannot verify this. A speech by Zakir Naik

Translation: Muslims ruled over 1100 years over India. Lopped off the heads of lakhs of Hindus. Converted crores of Hindus and made them Muslim. Broke up India into pieces and took away Pakistan and Bangladesh. Broke 2000 temples and built mosques there instead. Out of fear, Hindus still shout slogans of "Hindu-Muslim, Bhai-Bhai". This is Islam's power!

Zakir Naik basically admits while showing off, that in Islam, what counts is the level of domination over the other, and co-existence and tolerance is seen as a weakness of the other.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 10 Dec 2014 19:33

^^did he actually say that ? Would be useful to know...

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 14 Dec 2014 00:04

Zakir Nair from pece TV and one of the most influential Muslim TV preachers Justify rape of captured whomen and slavry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPEy5ZOroNo

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Dec 2014 13:45

The Logic of Islamic Terrorism (Cont.)

Through such statements, radical Islamists, wish to convey one message: "Be afraid of us, we know no mercy"! The more fear they can create, the wider would fear as a currency be accepted, and as such Islam adherents everywhere rejoice when their assets (intimidation capacity) increase in value in their neighborhoods. Through fear caused by someone in Iraq, and propagated throughout the world, through various media, e.g. my post here, an Islam-adherent in Kerala or West Bengal feels elated that the Hindu in the street would tremble from him. This is one reason one finds support for this kind of terror all over the world.

Fear is a currency! Terror is a commodity!

The only way to devalue "Fear as a currency" is to prepare one's psychology, one's rhetoric, one's combat skills, one's network accordingly. We will be facing more of such propaganda.

Here is some more!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 16 Dec 2014 14:19

X-post from Pzzie thread:

About the Sydney gunman:

anmol wrote:
Tanaji wrote:I was expectantly looking for a connection to the Land of Pure but am surprised at the Iranian one. I thought the Isis regarded the Shia as non believers, so how come the Shia guy is supporting Isis?
ex-Shia, he converted to Sunni Islam.

I see this is happening a lot among Irani youth. From a 2012 post:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1334199

But even many devout Iranian Shi'a are rejecting the kinks of their ideology - and gravitating to a slightly better forms of shi'ism or even a flat out Sunni-like ideology.

When the intensely religious Irani youth gets disillusioned by the hypocrisy of the marj'a-e'taqleeds, they reject that part of the theology. [According to Shi'ism, everyone must have a Guru - marj'a-e-taqleed - someone whose risalah is to be 'imitated' in daily life.] So when Shi'ia reject the institution of Guruship, they generally gravitate to a more individual and impersonal form of Islamism that falls squarely within the grey overlap with Turkish Sunni Naqshbandi Islam.

Gulenism has already spread its net in that space by adopting and digesting several Shi'a practices.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Dec 2014 18:29

Mosab Yousuf Hassan, the "Green Prince", son of the founder of Hamas, is progressing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG3f2rgj2Z8

Interesting hints of his direction of thought in the presentation.... Worth watching.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Dec 2014 21:15

CNN ‏@CNN 16m16 minutes ago

"Slavery & beheadings [are] part of our religion." A dangerous journey into the world of ISIS: http://cnn.it/1wBLlfU

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 22 Dec 2014 21:49

deejay wrote:X Posting here too:

Ok, here is an article on the Gauahar Khan slap. I think the author wants to say something and then does an equal equal to keep the flak away (I guess):http://www.dailyo.in/laugh/gauahar-khan ... 1/880.html

I wonder if Aamir Khan, SRK andthe other jihadis had anything to say about this.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Dec 2014 04:21

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... m-remarks/
Row over Indologist’s anti-Islam remarks

Belgian Indologist Dr Koenraad Elst’s anti-Islam remarks created a flutter at a Goa conclave Saturday, prompting at least one foreign delegate to walk out while another lodged a complaint with organiser India Foundation whose directors include Union Minister Suresh Prabhu and Shaurya Doval, son of National Security Advisor Ajit Doval.Former Jordanian prime minister Dr Abdelsalam al-Majali left the meeting while Dr Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, former secretary general of the Organisation of Islamic Countries, lodged a protest.Addressing the session on ‘Religion — Tolerance and Terror’ at the India Ideas Conclave 2014, Elst said: “On the whole, you should make it uncool to be Muslims. That will help them. You do not forcefully need to convert them. Through this, they will themselves outgrow Islam.”Referring to the row over the ‘ghar wapsi’ campaign, Elst said: “The Vishwa Hindu Parishad is coming under criticism for the one thing that they are doing very well which is ghar wapsi. We need to liberate Muslims from Islam. Every Muslim is an abductee and must be brought back.”
Those present at the session included spiritual guru Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Ram Madhav of the BJP and several party MPs including former Mumbai police commissioner Satyapal Singh.An Indophile who studied at Banaras Hindu University, Elst has authored books opposing the Aryan invasion theory, contending that Aryans were Indians who fanned out — his “Out of India” theory. He has also written on the Ram Janmabhoomi dispute.Before he walked out, former Jordanian prime minister Abdelsalam al-Majali told the gathering: “I am appalled at what I heard from the platform about insulting Islam and insulting the Prophet. One can criticize this, that and the other but don’t insult. To try to destroy the whole faith is wrong. We came here to understand each other and try to be peaceful. It is very said to be at such a conference to hear insults on a religion which is followed by over one billion people.”
Ihsanoglu too protested: “We are hearing a speech of hatred. You cannot use your freedom of speech to hurt others. I was very happy being here until I heard this speech of hatred.” Gunnar Stalsett, Bishop Emeritus of Oslo, and others questioned the “demonization” of an entire faith.When organiser India Foundation’s comments were sought on Elst’s remarks, one of its office-bearers, who did not wish to be named, said: “The views are of an individual and the India Foundation does not subscribe to them. We have already issued an apology to our guests.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Dec 2014 09:16

In Fundation terms Prophet is the Mule exerting mind control. Elst is correct.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Dec 2014 21:10

Taken from : Women and Gender in Islam by Leila Ahmed
Yale University Press, 1992

Muhammad's death sparked off a series of rebellions in various parts of Arabia, most of which had converted to Islam by then. At least one armed rebellion was led by a woman, Salma bint Malik, and one of the "false prophets" who appeared as leaders of revolts against the Islamic state was a woman, too.

Captured by the Muslims in a battle led by her mother in 628, Salma bint Malik was given to Aisha by Muhammad. She served Aisha for a time and later married a relative of Muhammad's. Upon Muhammad's death she withdrew and returned to her people, who were among those rebelling against Islam. Her mother, when captured by the Muslims had been executed by having each foot tied to a different beast, which then rent her in two. Salma, determined to avenge her or die, led her soldiers in person, riding on her mother's camel. She was finally killed, but not before "a hundred others" had fallen around her.

The false prophet was Sajah bint Aws, of the Tamim, whose mother was of the Banu Taghlib, a largely Christianized tribe. The Tamim were divided between supporting and opposing Islam. Those wanting to throw it off supported Sajah. When her faction lost in a civil war and she was forced to leave Tamimi territory with her army, she headed for Yamama, the capital of another false prophet, Musailamah, and apparently made a treaty with him -- but nothing is known of her after that. Her deity was referred to as Rabb al-sirab "The Lord of the Clouds", but her teachings have not been preserved.

Salma and Sajah were, it seems, a rebel and a prophet who happened to be women. But in Hadramaut, women may have rebelled as women, rejoicing at Muhammad's death because of the limitations Islam had brought to them. "When the Prophet of God died", reads a third-century (Islamic) account of this rebellion, "the news of it was carried to Hadramaut."

There were in Hadramaut six women of Kindah and Hadramaut, who were desirous for the death of the Prophet of God; they therefore (on hearing the news) dyed their hands with henna and played on the tambourine. To them came the harlots of Hadramaut and did likewise, so that some twenty-odd women joined the six....[The text then lists the names of some women, including two that it describes as grandmothers.]

Oh horseman, if thou dost pass by, convey this message from me to Abu Bakr, the successor of Ahmad [Muhammad]: leave not in peace the harlots, black as chaff, who assert that Muhammad need not be mourned; satisfy that longing for them to be cut off, which burns in my breast like an unquenchable ember.
Abu Bakr sent al-Muhagir with men and horses against the women, and although the men of Kindah and Hadramaut came to the women's defense, al-Muhagir cut off the women's hands. This account is intriguing, for why should the opposition of harlots have been threatening enough to Islam to merit sending a force against them ?

Three of the women listed were of the nobility and four belonged to the royal clan of Kindah. Their status and the support of their men suggest that they were priestesses, not prostitutes, and that
their singing and dancing were not personal rejoicing but traditional performances intended to incite their tribespeople to throw off the yoke of the new religion. They were evidently successful enough in gathering support to constitute a threat worthy of armed suppression.

Furthermore, some Arabian women at the time of the institution of Islam, and not only priestesses, doubtless understood and disliked the new religion's restrictions on women and its curtailment of their independence. For them Muhammad's death would have been a matter for celebration and the demise of his religion a much desired eventuality. That some women felt Islam to be a somewhat depressing religion is suggested by a remark of Muhammad's great grand daugher Sukaina, who, when asked why she was so merry and her sister Fatima so solemn, replied that it was because she had been named after her pre-Islamic great grandmother, whereas her sister had been named after her Islamic grandmother.

The submerged pre-Islamic Arabic culture left traces that could not be erased and are almost as plain as the nose on your face.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 25 Dec 2014 21:27

ramana wrote:In Fundation terms Prophet is the Mule exerting mind control. Elst is correct.

- OT-
No "Prophet" is not the Mule. The Prophet at best represents the starting point of many kingdoms the Galactic Empire broke into. A Warlord.

Unlike the Foundation, we don't have a Seldon plan. Maybe, someone can craft a Seldon plan. Mind Control would always spare the savagery.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Dec 2014 22:45

Jhujar wrote:http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... m-remarks/
Row over Indologist’s anti-Islam remarks

Elst said: “On the whole, you should make it uncool to be Muslims. That will help them. You do not forcefully need to convert them. Through this, they will themselves outgrow Islam.”Referring to the row over the ‘ghar wapsi’ campaign, Elst said: “The Vishwa Hindu Parishad is coming under criticism for the one thing that they are doing very well which is ghar wapsi. We need to liberate Muslims from Islam. Every Muslim is an abductee and must be brought back.”

Islam is already the least cool religion around and its ratings ain't goin up. At least from the Kaffir's point of view.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Dec 2014 04:21

I think malsI should be looked at as Judaism++

It just seems like a few additional things added on to the Judaism. Mo's story is closely based on Moses story. Moses story in turn seems to be based on Shri Krushna's biography.

In Judaism, the prophet's main role seems to be to make predictions. This is similar to the Ajivika way. Later, at Khazarian intervention, this role seems to have changed. I think the Moses story was created after this time based on Shri Krushna's life in 500 CE to 800 CE. Then, the Turks and Persians seemed to have developed the Mo's story based on Moses story from 800 CE to 1000 CE.

Originally, Mo may have been a sort of a leadership title among Arabs(Arabs were semi-black at that time and Turks were pinkish). I would not be surprised if there were several Mos in reality at that time. But, the bio of Mo seems to be created by Persians and Turks after the Arabs were ousted.

What is startling is that they claimed that this story of Mo has to be used to interpret what they claim to be divine revelations(naroK). This is quite crazy. Why would anyone want to use human writings to interpret divine revelations?

Is there any declaration within naroK that Mo's bio is needed to understand it? If Mo's bio was essential to interpret the naroK, then why didn't Mo himself order someone to write it? Why should Mo's bio had to be written several years after his death? And how did people interpret naroK before Mo's bio was written?

So, even though the original base theology seems to be an Arabian one, it seems to have been thoroughly modified by the Turks and Persians. Thats why it is so close to Judaism(which seems to have been reformed by Khazarians).

I tried to compile some similarities between life stories of Shri Krushna, Moses and Mo.

Shri Krushna:
1) born in noble family which is not currently in power.
2) Separated from parents at young age.
3) Grew up as a cowherd.
4) Shows magical abilities at young age.
5) killed Kamsa who was uncle of Shri Krushna.
6) escaped to Raivatha mountain fort.
7) 18 clans of Yadhavas are led by Shri Krushna to west.
8 ) Established Dhwarka.
9) Married Rukmini, Sathyabhama, …etc 8 queens.
10) Has an elder brother named Bala-Raama.
11) Has a younger sister named Subhadhra.(And a elder step-sister born to Nandha).
12) Shri Krushna crossed river Yamuna with His father and the waters receded.
13) Meets Indhra, Brahma and others.
14) Shri Krushna goes to heaven to meet Indhra and returns.

Moses 500 CE - 800 CE:
1) born in noble family which is not currently in power.
2) Separated from parents at young age.
3) Grew up as a shepherd.
4) Shows magical abilities at young age.
5) killed an Egyptian prince.
6) escaped to Median.
7) 12 clans of Yahudhis are led by Moses to east
8 ) Established Israel.
9) Moses married Zipporah and her 6 sisters.
10) Has an elder brother named Aaron.
11) Has an older sister named Miriam.
12) Moses crossed red sea with his followers and the waters receded.
13) Meets the ‘God’ face to face.
14) XX

Mohammad – 800 CE – 1000 CE:
1) born in noble family which is not currently in power.
2) Separated from parents at young age.
3) Grew up as a shepherd.
4) No magical abilities. XX
5) Abu Talib, uncle of Mohammad died.
6) Mohammad escaped to Medina.
7) All the followers of Mohammad escaped to Medina in west.
8 ) Constitution of Medina was established
9) Married 8 or more women.
10) Mohammad had no brother. XX
11) Mohammad had no sister. XX
12) XX
13) Meets Gabriel.
14) Mohammad goes to heaven to meet 'god' and returns.

In malsI, one can notice the influence of Zorashtrianism. It seems to me that the rejection of idols and symbols is due to the influence of Zorashtrianism. Otherwise, the original Arabic version seems to have been totally immersed in idol worship as seen at abaaK. So, malsI seem to be influenced by Zorashtrianism due to Persians and Judaism due to Turks.

Even traces of influence of X-ism can be seen. But mostly, it seems to be influenced by Judaism. It is notable that Mo has no magical abilities and is presented as a mere human being. In contrast, Moses has magical abilities. And of course, Shri Krushna also has magical abilities. The magical abilities keep on decreasing from Shri Krushna to Moses and are totally absent in Mo's story.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Dec 2014 15:51

The Moses story is definitely one among the earlier crop of Abrahamic legends that seems to have been well established by the time of the Babylonian exile : c. 700 BCE. There are hundreds of so-called "Biblical scholarship" trying to date Moses as a real historical person.

My conservative speculation is that Moses is loosely based on a possible real Egyptian or mixed Hebrew-Egyptian descent (Old Egypt called them "Haberu" - so here I mean the ethnicity that Egypt then saw and not the Yehud/Yehuda/Yude[from "Yadu"?] that comes up in written references that are not however datable before the Babylonian exile) man who at some stage of old/middle or new kingdom chaos - led a dissenting party comprising largely of ethnic immigrant Jews - but at that period could equally be just a party of Levantine/Canaanite immigrants not yet fully confirmed to themselves as "Jews".

The likely period of such successful dissent and out-migration would be when pharaonic authority was weak, as it happened during transition periods between old kingdom to middle kingdom and middle to new kingdom. Out of this, one likely phases are transition to 18th dynasty when pharaonic authority reduced to southern part and the southern part was trying to expand against the "Hyksos" - a vague term denoting possibly anything from Eastern mediterranean islanders to future palestinians and Jews. The other likely phase is the breakdown of Akhenaten's movement.

In either case, the peculiarities of future Judaic monotheism, and Islam perhaps can be contextualized. For example the immense hatred of "female deities" sharing supreme power beside the "supreme lord". This could have come out of blaming all that went wrong in Egypt out of the practice of assigning shared ritual role to royal women with the pharaoh, and their official designation as "God's wife". Both the 18th dynasty women - their founder being a princess who led in battle against the Hyksos, and others like Hatshepsut, or wives of pharaohs like Nefertiti once sharing top ritual/divine role with Akhenaten who might have compromised with priests/polytheism after Akhenaten's death - could be the key to understand Judaic and Islamic obsession with insisting "God" has no female partner.The name itself of Moses indicates a possible at least part Egyptian descent.

The real Moses might have been an earlier character on whom the later monotheistic characteristics have been added. But the date of roots of Moses legends can therefore be placed to 2200-1300 BCE. This can perhaps be also seen as the period of a possible Indian diaspora - or dispersal of western Indian peoples with their stories/legends during the global megadrought and dessication of SSC.

The key similarities in Egyptian early mythology, and the evolution of stories of moses has some key shared aspects with Indian ones:
(1) the key significance of reeds on sea-side or lakes/delta as both birth, hiding-place, and place of destruction of civilizations (including putting future leader infants of mixed or problematic social aspects to his birth, in reed baskets/found in reeds)
(2) a story of self-imposed exile/migration even after the leader defeats the regime that oppresses his people to find a new "homeland"
(3) the crossing of water to exile, parting of waters or miraculous safe passage through such water
(4) a war or conquest/elimination of threats to the leaders people once they go into exile
(5) and the emergence of a personal supreme "god" who is unique/only-one-to-follow [sarva dharman parityajya mamekam sharanm vraja] who can also come in human form and who helps his devotees through war and tribulations.

What they edited out from Krusna model is his "female companion" - this indicates the story was formed out of an Indian root but shaped by pharaonic Egyptian experience.

[PS. Mo is attributed magical powers too - look at for example, his use of "mantraputa" dust in the so-called battle of the trenches, where he hid in trench to escape being killed]

The iconoclasm could have come from both Egyptian roots with a belief that defacing/erasing someone's sculpture/name resulted in "denaming" the person and that his soul would then hang in a limbo and not attain heaven as well as the iconoclastic faction of Byzantine Christianity who around the period of Mo's birth had been temporarily defeated and been self-exiled in the badlands between Byzantine and Parthian territory.

member_28921 · Post by **member_28921** » 27 Dec 2014 19:25

Not sure if this has already been posted here:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/c ... 304375.ece
(Article requires subscription - if someone has it, would be worth posting the text).

The basic idea was first expressed by Nicholas Taleb, that polygamous societies are more prone to violence because there is a large number of low status males who have nothing to lose. Thus, in the medieval era, an invader attacking a peaceful and prosperous land would always be able to gather an army, because of the large number of young men with no prospects in their own land.

Think of it this way - a society has 100 people - 50 men and 50 women.
1 very rich man has 4 wives.
2 rich men have 3 wives each.
3 well off men have 2 wives each.
These six men already account for 16 women. The other 44 men will be pursuing 34 women - no matter how they are paired, you'll have at least 10 men with no hope of procreating - which creates a pool of potential ghazis/suicide-bombers.

This is still true of West Asia and some other places, where a rich sheikh can afford to have multiple wives and can also afford to divorce older wives/marry younger women, whereas young men at the bottom of the social ladder have little to look forward to. Which is why IS, Boko Haram etc. will always find willing recruits in several societies - and kidnapping women wholesale will be one of their objectives. I guess this probably doesn't work in the more progressive societies such as Bangladesh, Indonesia or Malaysia (or even Indian Muslims, as polygamy doesn't seem to be common here - perhaps Eastern mores at work in all the places). But West Asia is one place to look at and worry.

On a different note, in the Indian context, the gender imbalance that has been created by female foeticide is something that should also cause us deep worry.

My apologies if this is off topic.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 Dec 2014 20:00

wadi wrote:The basic idea was first expressed by Nicholas Taleb, that polygamous societies are more prone to violence because there is a large number of low status males who have nothing to lose. Thus, in the medieval era, an invader attacking a peaceful and prosperous land would always be able to gather an army, because of the large number of young men with no prospects in their own land.

My apologies if this is off topic.

Not at all off topic. On the contrary. I don't know about the Nicholas Taleb's writing on this matter. Here's something I wrote earlier.

Sex & Jihad - Politics of Scarcity & Promise

One of the more fascinating aspects of any society is how it deals with the gender ratio. How does Islam do it? In Islamic society, manipulation of effective gender ratio is actually a fundamental tool to push its agenda. One could even compare it to hoarding of essential food items. Another aspect which needs to be studied is the division between the elite and the common man. Both these aspects are intertwined.

1. What happens when the elite Muslims marry four wives? By the way, four is just a number. The father of Osama bin Laden, Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden had 22 wives from whom he fathered 54 children. The propensity of the Islamic elite to overindulgence in marital bliss causes a certain scarcity among the women available to the rest of the males.

2. Also there is the issue of Mahr, an amount a groom presents to the bride at the time of marriage, a sort of 'purchase-money'. In many societies in Middle East, this amount is often large as it responds to supply and demand. The Islamic elite often push this amount ever higher. Thus one finds many Muslim youth who are unable to afford it.

3. There is a very strict control over the freedom of women, and often in many Islamic countries they are not allowed to go out, and even if they go out they often do it in Niqāb or Burqa, so that men are not allowed to see or talk to these women. They are a closely guarded property. Prostitutes too may be available but again only to the very rich. This is a complete visual deprivation of the opposite sex in Muslim society.

What this does is, it creates a market of scarcity of women, and increases sexual frustration by suppressing all avenues for a release. Prostitution, ***** homosexuality and even masturbation are prohibited or heavily controlled, basically creating a pressure cooker for the Muslim man.

At the same time, a controlled channel for release of this pent up sexual frustration is created through targeted propaganda.

1. Stories of Jannat with virgins waiting to embrace the Mujahiddin, those fallen in battle for Islam are standard nourishment for the young Muslim male mind.

2. Full sanction is given by the doctrine to pursue right-handed possessions of enslaved Kufr women.

3. A certain contempt for Kufr women among Muslim men is nurtured, so that his interest is confined to sexual pleasure and perhaps procreation rather than a healthy wholesome relationship with a woman to whom he pledges fidelity. Basically this is a form of vaccination against love and loyalty to Kufr women, so that the faith of the Muslim man is not corrupted by the culture of the Kufr woman.

4. In Syria one now sees Islamic clerics issuing fatwas favoring Muslim women to provide sexual services to Jihadis.

This system of building up pent-up sexual frustration among the Muslim men through a scarcity of Muslim women as well as presenting Jihad as a means of delivering sexual fulfillment is a sociopolitical model used by Islamic Elite to not only enjoy a life of sexual bountifulness but also a means to pursue their imperialistic agendas of pushing poorer Muslim men into global Jihad or making use of them as attack dogs to strengthen their control over Islamic society.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 28 Dec 2014 11:53

Help Imran Firasat:

http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/65-k ... death.html