Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Sep 2014 10:04

SCO leaders support Putin’s peace plan for Ukraine

Heads of state of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization say that the crisis in Ukraine is spilling beyond the borders of the country and needs immediate action, while stressing that the only solution to the conflict lies in dialogue and consensus.

At a press conference following the summit President Putin said the leaders had touched upon various issues of international politics, including those connected with the settlement of the Ukrainian crisis, and added that the approaches to this settlement proved to be similar.

“We are very satisfied by the fact that the approaches to basic directions of cooperation appear to be identical or very close,” Putin told reporters.

Kazakh President Nursultan Nazarbayev has confirmed that he, together with the leaders of Russia, China, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, supported a peaceful settlement in Ukraine within the guidelines of the plan suggested by President Putin. “The only long-term solution to the problem is in political dialogue and consensus. It is necessary to emphasize the importance of the Minsk summit that took place on August 26. The step-by-step plan of conflict settlement proposed by President Putin has become an important document on the way of peaceful resolution of the crisis. We call upon all sides to strictly observe the letter of these documents,” Nazarbayev said.

The Dushanbe declaration also supports active measures to fight terrorism, extremism, separatism and drug trafficking, and leaders of the SCO nations expressed their readiness to assist all sides engaged in countering these threats. In its economic part the document provides for growing cooperation, trade and developing of the hi-tech sector as well as for mutual effort to ensure the food and energy security of the bloc.

In the same declaration the SCO leaders jointly supported the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Syria and said that the conflict there could be settled only through the continuation of multi-sided and direct dialogue between the various parts of Syrian society. The heads of state added that all problems in the Middle East and North Africa should be solved purely by peaceful means.

Another document signed at the summit was the list of obligations for applicant states, and the general regulations for granting membership of the organization. The move opens a way into the bloc for new members with the most likely first applicants being India and Pakistan.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization unites Russia, China and ex-Soviet Republics of Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, all of which are Russia’s allies in trade, politics and defense. Such regional powers as India and Iran hold observer status in the organization.

The combined population of SCO member-states is 1.45 billion people, or a quarter of the world’s population.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 13 Sep 2014 10:40

Following is how the Amerikhans see their own stithee. I think we should help them achieve that and SCO is a good way of doing that. We should just negotiate for and protect, our own interests and not get into the big game in either side. Russians have almost brought them to the same level as the WW2 and that too without an actual war. Chinese will obviously exceed the Russians. Aur jab paap ka ghada pura bhar jayega then we should simply hand over the red card.

US federal debt held by the public as a percentage of GDP, from 1790 to 2013, projected to 2038

U.S. debt from 1940 to 2011. Red lines indicate the "debt held by the public" and black lines indicate the total national debt or gross public debt. The difference is the "intragovernmental debt," which includes obligations to government programs such as Social Security. Stated as a formula, National Debt = Debt held by the Public + Intragovernmental Debt. The second panel shows the two debt figures as a percentage of U.S. GDP (dollar value of U.S. economic production for that year). The top panel is deflated so every year is in 2010 dollars.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Sep 2014 14:06

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/09/1 ... 4N20140913

Putin trying to destroy Ukraine, says its PM

(Reuters) - Ukraine's prime minister said on Saturday Russian President Vladimir Putin aimed to destroy Ukraine as an independent country and said only NATO could defend the ex-Soviet republic from external aggression.

...
"We are still in a stage of war and the key aggressor is the Russian Federation ... Putin wants another frozen conflict (in eastern Ukraine)," Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk told a conference attended by European and Ukrainian lawmakers and business leaders.

Yatseniuk said Putin would not be content only with Crimea - annexed by Moscow in March - and with Ukraine's mainly Russian-speaking eastern region.

"His goal is to take all of Ukraine ... Russia is a threat to the global order and to the security of the whole of Europe," said Yatseniuk, who is known for his hawkish rhetoric.

Asked about future NATO membership, a red line for Russia, Yatseniuk said he realised the alliance was not ready now to admit Kiev, but added: "NATO in these particular circumstances is the only vehicle to protect Ukraine."

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Sep 2014 15:55

Yatseniuk has been known to making wild allegation since time he has become PM , He has mentioned Russian Invasion of Ukraine so many times that its diffcult to keep count.

Its election season and Yatseniuk and Poroshenko party are competing against each other so you can expect more wild statement from them in coming days.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 14 Sep 2014 05:31

Now this is something worth while asking, why?

Russia Sends Second Humanitarian Convoy Into Ukraine, And Nobody Says A Word

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Sep 2014 06:18

Very interesting.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Sep 2014 09:46

The ceasefire was the worst thing that could have happened. US has given up on Ukraine. The surrender monkeys of Europe have let down mighty US once again. Washington has been stabbed in the back.
The state department has stopped giving headlines to Washington Post and New York Times. They have blacked out news about Ukraine. No news on this `second invasion` convoy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Sep 2014 10:51

Luhansk must be in rebel hands for convoy to reach there smoothly.

Not sure if its surrounded by the faithfools.

Donetsk airport still a govt pocket..to what end nobody knows.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 14 Sep 2014 12:51

Singha wrote:Luhansk must be in rebel hands for convoy to reach there smoothly.

Not sure if its surrounded by the faithfools.

Donetsk airport still a govt pocket..to what end nobody knows.

Donetsk airport pocket is essentially PoWs without having to worry about getting people in return for the 1200+. Ukraine cant ask for the Donetsk lot back. And they wont be let out otherwise.

Note the lack of details in prisoner exchange -- no details of rebels released. Mariupol is similar but not quite the same as it is still reachable.

Winter is coming. Ukraine wanted to solve the problem before winter. Didnt happen. Now europe has a problem, over and above ukraine. One that will last for some time.

Sevastopol has been going for final checks with russian crew and will be delivered. second mistral, who knows. europe will desperately try to keep things down until spring, but ukraine may have other desperate ideas.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Sep 2014 12:59

Good Writeup

Diverging Visions of Partnership

Shireen T. Hunter, Georgetown University, August 2014

Western observers mostly attribute the chill in Russian relations with the West to President Vladimir Putin’s personality, authoritarian tendencies, and excessive ambitions for Russia. All of these factors have had their share in the gradual and steady estrangement of Russia from the West. However, to lay all the current problems at Putin’s doorstep would be a mistake because it would overlook some more fundamental causes of Russian-Western discord, which Putin’s departure from power would not completely eliminate.

Two of the most important of these causes are: (1) a narrative held by many Russians of the process of the USSR’s collapse and the Yeltsin era that is different from those popular in the West; and (2) different visions held by Russia and the West regarding their partnership.

The West has always seen the USSR’s collapse as a blessing and Yeltsin as a hero who precipitated this collapse. They have seen the Yeltsin era as a promising period for the growth of democracy and free market economy in Russia. This view is not shared by many Russians. For them, Yeltsin was responsible for torpedoing Gorbachev’s plans for the reform of the USSR, which would have retained it as a loose grouping similar to the British Commonwealth. Had it worked, this concept would have salvaged Russian pride and helped it to retain a measure of influence over the internal Soviet space. Moreover, according to this Russian view, such a solution could have spared Russia such agonizing conflicts as that in Chechnya.

In short, the West’s idea of partnership was Russia’s absolute acquiescence with all Western policies anywhere in the world, irrespective of the consequences for Russia, along with the total reshaping of Russian society according to a Western model, without any consideration for Russia’s peculiarities, history, and culture.

Many Russians see Yeltsin’s call for the independence of Russia from the USSR and his call on Russia’s ethnic minorities, such as the Tatars and Chechens, to “get as much sovereignty as you can” as factors responsible for both the USSR’s collapse and the conflicts and turmoil that followed. For these Russians, Yeltsin’s call for Russia’s independence from the USSR was mystifying, since Russia dominated the USSR. Even Kazakh President Nursultan Nazarbayev at the time asked rhetorically, “From whom does Russia seek independence?” By contrast, the West lionized Yeltsin.

Similarly, the West saw policies like economic shock therapy as presaging reform, but many Russians saw it as the wholesale dismantling of Russia’s industrial base, literally handing it over to private individuals, while ordinary Russians experienced a fall in their living standards. Furthermore, while the Russians saw the Chechen war as directed against separatists and terrorists, the West tended to view it as a war of national liberation. The Russians, particularly President Putin, bitterly resented the lack of Western sympathy for Russia in the face of what they saw as terrorist acts committed by extremist Chechen Muslims against Russia.

The cumulative impact of these diverging visions was that many Russians came to believe that the West was not just against the USSR and its policies of confrontation but against Russia as a great power and a key international player. Even such a pro-Western Russian as Andrei Kozyrev, in a 1993 article Foreign Affairs, complained that some people in the West cannot accept the idea of Russia as a great power.

y the end of the 1990s, many Russians came to believe that the country needed a strong hand to rebuild the state. This hand happened to be Putin’s, but it could have been that of another Russian.

The Russian and Western visions of what a Russo-Western partnership meant were also very different. Again, as explicated by Kozyrev, Russia saw itself as an equal partner with the West in the management of the post-Soviet world, in a sort of condominium or latter-day Conference of Vienna style. In particular, Russia believed that it should continue to play a key role in places such as Central Asia and the Caucasus as the West’s partner. But in much of the West, any Russian effort to reorganize its relations with these regions was seen as an attempt to recreate the Soviet Empire.

To make matters worse from this Russian perspective, the West often supported anti-Russian leaders in some of these countries and, in questions related to energy transport, favored Turkey over Russia, and encouraged a greater Turkish role in the ex-Soviet space. In short, the West’s idea of partnership was Russia’s absolute acquiescence with all Western policies anywhere in the world, irrespective of the consequences for Russia, along with the total reshaping of Russian society according to a Western model, without any consideration for Russia’s peculiarities, history, and culture.

Given these diverging narratives and visions, it was no surprise that as early as 1993 a gradual process of moving away from Yeltsin’s early positions began in Russia. The first manifestation was the hardening of the Russian government’s position vis à vis autonomist tendencies within the Russian Federation, which in the case of Chechnya led to a long and bloody conflict. Lest one forget, the Chechen War began under Yeltsin.

Russia has its own security concerns as well as a desire for influence and prestige, goals which may not always coincide with those of the West.

In foreign policy, change was to come later, but by 1997, Foreign Minister Yevgeny Primakov was complaining of U.S. efforts to establish its global hegemony and was asking for the development of a multipolar international system. Later events, such as the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and the bombing of Libya by forces of NATO nations exacerbated Russian concerns over the West’s tendency towards unilateralism. Syria was the last straw, and led Russia to support Bashar Assad at the risk of antagonizing the West.

In short, as soon as the dust over the USSR’s collapse settled, the requirements of retaining the territorial integrity of the Russian Federation and preventing further decay of the state system asserted themselves. Similarly, the realities of Russia’s geography and history set in and, with them, differences of interests and views on many issues with the West. In other words, by the end of the 1990s, many Russians came to believe that the country needed a strong hand to rebuild the state. This hand happened to be Putin’s, but it could have been that of another Russian. Surely, at times Russia has overplayed its hand, both domestically and internationally, to its own detriment, but so have other states. As to the future, a cardinal principle in managing Russian-Western relations should be recognition that Russia has its own security concerns as well as a desire for influence and prestige, goals which may not always coincide with those of the West. The challenge is how to reconcile these conflicting ambitions, so as not to endanger the mutual gains of the last two decades. One way is not to overly personalize the source of Russian-Western discord. A second way, which incidentally is valid in the case of other countries, is to apply principles of international conduct across the board and not selectively. If international rules are broken by the powerful, others will do the same when they can.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 14 Sep 2014 13:06

US has not given up on Ukraine. They have made their 'investments'. Ukraine is Balkanized for good. The only good thing the Russians have been able to achieve is that they have acted like a pandit. OTOH syriana is ready for launch in your neighbourhood screen this friday. Some here would be more than happy.

................................

I began reading up the MH17 story and here too the Russians got 'used' and they never realized. Even their actions in 'suggesting' what went wrong kept implicating the Russians themselves. First they said there were a couple of Su25 around. Well that only means that the Russians were baited and they took the bait the way a well trained crew can be expected to behave. Then they said the Ukrainian Buks could have been used. Ending up suggesting that even Russians have Buks in the region. Then the Russians also gave Sat imagery purportedly showing clouds in the region and some other part started to raise questions on the last minute change of flight path. Then they raised questions on the flight altitude hoping they would be able to implicate the Su25 while knowing fully well that even a Buk would require the target to be at a comfortable height esp. if its launched from far off. I don't think the Russians even asked the questions about the smoke trail witnesses or the absence of any sort of warnings getting triggered between 13:19:56 (last command confirmed by MH17) and 13:20:03 (7 seconds) when in fact the different types of sampling is done between 8 times per 1 second to once per 4 seconds.

Russians even failed to highlight the kind of 30 mm shells or the type of warheads on the short ranged AAMs, the Ukrainians have in their inventory or even the proximity trigger times on Buks.

The Russians have lost a lot of battles and only won half/quarter of a war. The Russians can be good hard workers but they are just not the suave sophisticated slimy bast..d kind that a well trained ......... can be. That is where the west beats them time and again. Russians too need to learn a lot - simple love for the motherland is not enough even though it is a good start but that is it.

Just read the transcript on this report and tell me which side came prepared to the table with 'accusations/suggestions' and which side come out looking like a 'plead-guilty criminal', when in fact both are seeing the same data.

The Rostov men are sounding like bumbling idiots who got 'used' by the people at the Dnipro ATC end, who off course sounds like a innocent mouni self controlled fakir baba

.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/ph ... actief.pdf

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Ok what do you make of this photograph. Which way did the shrapnels go - in or out.

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One nubie pooch:
Is this normal to guide beyond the immidiate waypoint.

13:20:00' - DNP to MH17 on Radio - "MALAYSIAN one seven, and after point ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA expect direct to TIKNA."

This was the last message that was not copied by MH17 just after the 13:19:56 message from MH17 to DNP where MH17 copied the message to proceed to ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 14 Sep 2014 19:05

It looks like all the headlines and events (Ookrane and She-Ree-Yah) in the last 2-3 weeks have been carefully placed and wrapped up just in time for the You-En se$$ion next week. Expect the You-En platform to be used for massive waar advertising, fancy diagrams with red line drawing, emotions etc. etc.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 14 Sep 2014 21:15

ravi_g wrote:US has n....
13:20:00' - DNP to MH17 on Radio - "MALAYSIAN one seven, and after point ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA expect direct to TIKNA."

Thats how it works. Channel 9 is interesting (some airlines make these conversations available to the cabin), listen in if you get a chance.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Sep 2014 22:54

Hasn't it hit anyone yet? It is the UKstanis that are claiming that there was ****nothing**** on the cockpit voice tape. There had to be at least screams or the sound of shrapnel or bullets hitting.

The only reason why they are claiming ***nothing*** is that they have erased or are not releasing the actual transcripts because they may identify the shooters.

Don't airliners have missile warning? This MAS seems pretty strange.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Sep 2014 04:56

Aftermath of the NATO summit.Trying to shore up the Choco soldier's collapsing "army".

http://rt.com/news/187688-nato-weapons-supply-ukraine/
NATO members start supplying weapons to Kiev – Ukrainian Defense Minister
Published time: September 14, 2014

http://rt.com/news/187688-nato-weapons-supply-ukraine/

NATO member states have started supplying weapons to Ukraine, the country’s Defense Minister said on TV. His comments came a few days after a similar statement by a Ukrainian presidential aide sparked a diplomatic scandal and a rash of denials.

In an interview with Channel 5, Ukrainian Defense Minister Valery Geletey said that he had held verbal consultations with the defense ministers of the “leading countries of the world, those that can help us, and they heard us. We have the supply of arms under way.”

“This process has begun, and I feel that this is exactly the way we need to go,” the minister said.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who attended the Sept. 4-5 NATO summit in Wales, announced that he had negotiated direct modern weapons supplies with a number of NATO member states.

NATO to give Ukraine 15mn euros, lethal and non-lethal military supplies from members

Poroshenko claimed that some of the NATO member states said during bilateral consultations they are ready to supply Ukraine with lethal and non-lethal arms, including “high precision weapons,” as well as with medical equipment.

NATO has had repeatedly said that the alliance is not going to supply any weapons or military equipment to Ukraine. At the same time, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said that the alliance would not interfere if member states made decisions of their own regarding arms supply to Ukraine.(!!!)

When Poroshenko’s aide Yury Lutsenko wrote on his Facebook page that the US, along with France, Italy, Poland and Norway, would supply modern weapons to Ukraine, the news prompted all the countries mentioned in Lutsenko’s post to say they had no information about supplies.

Last Sunday, US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel was the first to deny the arms delivery, saying he was not aware of a secret deal to supply Ukraine with lethal weapons.

Hagel ‘not aware’ of secret deal to supply Kiev with lethal weapons

Shortly afterward, Norway, Italy, and Poland also denied the report.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Sep 2014 07:14

lame. Why does the world need this destruction?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Sep 2014 09:31

Vladimir Putin answered Russian journalists’ questions following the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22949

QUESTION: The European Union has adopted a new package of sanctions. How do you assess them and how damaging will they be for Russia? Will there be any countermeasures, sanctions in response, and if so, what will they be? The new sanctions list the EU has announced includes politicians from Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk peoples republics, and State Duma deputies too. [Vladimir] Zhirinovsky is on the list and so is [Vladimir] Vasiliyev. What are your thoughts on the matter?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Russia’s position on sanctions is well-known. We have long since realised that sanctions as a foreign policy instrument are not very effective and almost never produce the hoped-for results, even when used against small countries, let alone against a country like Russia.

Of course, imposing sanctions always causes some damage, including for those who impose them. The sanctions against Russia will be no exception. We know the losses that European business and US business too will face and the damage done to trade relations as a result of the measures Russia has taken in response, but as we say in such cases, we have been left with no choice.

As for the latest round of sanctions, the use of this mechanism looks somewhat strange, even in a generally strange situation. I say this because, as you know, I had a telephone conversation with President of Ukraine [Petro] Poroshenko recently, and following on from that conversation I proposed an action plan for setting the conflict on track towards a peaceful settlement.

I even said at that moment in Ulan Bator, talking about these plans, that President Poroshenko and I were generally in agreement in our positions. Building on that conversation, I put forward a seven-point plan, which, as we saw, essentially became the base of the peace agreements signed at the contact group’s meeting in Minsk.

We are pleased to see that the process did begin and that hostilities have stopped, the militia have ceased hostilities and the Ukrainian army, to give the Ukrainian President his due, has also taken the required steps under the agreements. They have pulled back, in some places at least, and have pulled back their artillery and multiple launch rocket systems to a distance from where they cannot fire on populated areas.

The peace process has begun and so have the first contacts, and I think that the possibility has emerged that this process might produce a political settlement, even if just a temporary one for now. This is definitely a positive shift in the situation that has unfolded in southeast Ukraine.

But I cannot fathom what these latest sanctions are actually about. Perhaps it is not to someone’s liking that the process has taken a peaceful turn? I have already said many times that our Western partners pushed things towards an anti-constitutional coup in Kiev, and then supported the military operations in southeast Ukraine, and now, just when the situation has taken a turn towards a peaceful settlement, they are taking steps that practically aim to disrupt this peace process. Why are they doing this?

I can’t help but think the seditious thought that no one actually cares about Ukraine itself. They are just using Ukraine as an instrument to shake up international relations. Ukraine is being used as an instrument and has been made hostage to the desire of some players on the international stage to revive NATO say, not so much even as a military organisation, but as a key instrument in US foreign policy, in order for the US to consolidate its satellites and scare them with a threat from abroad. But if this is the case, this is a real shame because it means that Ukraine has essentially become hostage to another’s interests. I do not see anything good in this practice.

As for our retaliatory measures, the Government is considering this. But if they are applied, then they will only be applied with the goal of creating better conditions for us. I feel there are certainly downsides to what was done to limit food imports for us as well, but they are minimal. There are far more positives for stimulating the development of our own agriculture, freeing the market from Western manufacturers that have thoroughly assimilated in our market, and meanwhile, they receive much more support and subsidies at a much higher volume than our agricultural producers.

Some people know, and others don’t, that subsidies per hectare of cultivated lands in the European Union are six times greater – I want to stress this – than in the Russian Federation. So the competition here was not very fair. But if the Government comes up with an idea that will help us somehow resolve our internal problems, then I suppose we should agree with it. But we will not do anything to harm ourselves. This concerns our response to sanctions.

As for the lists, I welcome this resolution by the European Union. The less our officials and heads of major companies go abroad and work on pressing matters instead, the better. The same is true of State Duma deputies, who need to communicate more frequently with their voters, rather than tanning somewhere at foreign resorts. Nevertheless, some questions arise; there are some names there that seem rather strange. I do not recall, I think it was one of the deputies, I think it was Babakov. And then the wording there…

REPLY: For assets.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Yes, for assets in Ukraine and in Crimea. But Ukraine’s current leadership also has many assets in Ukraine and in Crimea. Apparently, if you follow this logic further, they themselves need to be included in the sanctions list.

Moreover, it included the prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk Republic. Our Western and Ukrainian partners insisted that officials from the self-proclaimed republics participate in the peace negotiation process. They came to us requesting that we use our influence to encourage them to participate.

We tried to do this. The prime minister is participating in this work and was accepted as a participant in the negotiations. But then they included him on the sanctions list. What is this, another attempt to somehow disrupt this peace process? Or what? What is this?

I would not want to think so. But there is certainly no logic in this whatsoever. And overall, you know, I am against these types of things – tit for tat, if they are not letting somebody in then we are not letting somebody in. We invite them to our nation; let them come and work. We are not going to refuse anyone. It is not even our choice. We will not follow that path. But if somebody does not want to work with us, there will always be alternatives.

QUESTION: You said that you will not do anything to harm Russia with these sanctions; nevertheless, the limitations in food imports have already led to increased prices.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: You apparently got a little distracted, because I stated that certain aspects of this are undoubtedly negative. But if we look at the problem comprehensively, there are more positives than negatives.

QUESTION: Yesterday, your aide said that [limitations] might involve cars, pharmaceuticals and…

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Listen. I am not getting involved in such technical work at this phase. It is true that the Cabinet is currently thinking this over, preparing certain suggestions. If my colleagues in the Cabinet come to the conclusion that a specific set of steps correspond to the interests of our economy, then we will do it. And if it’s just about showing off how tough we are, just to snap back and then to suffer damage as a result of that, we will not do it.

Ultimately, I wanted to convey our approach; as for the concrete steps that will be taken, if they are taken at all, we will see. Let the Cabinet think about it and make suggestions.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 15 Sep 2014 11:05

What's been happening the past week? (from the same source that posts fairly credible maps, that I've included in my previous posts).

Mariupol - Ukrainians have established at least two defense rings around the city. They have also blown up a bridge leading into the city and mined others with explosives. Exchanges of territory taking place in the suburbs of Mariupol, with the rebels apparently abandoning the NE suburb of Talakivka, but occupying the E suburb of Sakanka. There was also a report almost a week ago (likely already posted by Amvas) of a Ukrainian armoured column ambushed outside of Mariupol in which up 18 T-64s 2 APCs & 10 trucks were destroyed. A few days later there was a report of another column being ambushed, this time with 2 APCs and 4 other vehicles destroyed, and 6 tanks captured.

At Telmanove, an important road junction 45km NE of Mariupol, Ukrainian forces made an attempt to seize the city about a week ago. The attempt was foiled and the Ukrainian troops reportedly abandoned a large amount of equipment - this included a number of Cougar APCS (9 according to one report, 3 according to another).

In the Donetsk area, the SW suburb of Marinka has apparently changed hands several times. Reports of Ukrainian shelling at the towns of Yelenovka and Petrovskoye. Ukrainian forces made a strong feint towards the N Donetsk suburb of Yasnyuvata. There has been competing artillery and rocket duels taking place at the Donetsk airport, where some 200 Ukrainian troops/mercenaries remained holed up and there have been several attempts made by the rebels to dislodge them - without success.

In the Gorlovka area, continued sporadic shelling of the city. DNR commander Mozgovoi announced a few days ago that his forces had entered Svetlodarsk - as a result between 1500 and 2000 Ukrainian troops plus a large amount of equipment are now encircled in the Debaltsevo area. However, it is unlikely this is a firm encirclement and is doubtful it could withstand a determined Ukrainian assault.

In the Lugansk area, there are still scattered Ukrainian elements encircled S and SW of the city. There was a reported attempt on the part of Ukrainian forces to establish a position near Shchastya, N of Lugansk, but they were driven off by LNR troops.

On the partisan front, Zaporozhe partisans claimed to have attacked one military convoy on its way to Mariupol a week ago. More specific info unknown. Kharkov partisans claimed to have intercepted a convoy of new recruits on their way to the front. Of 84 recruits, 9 reportedly joined the partisans, 20 more intended to seek asylum in Russia, and the rest decided to go home. They also claim to have blown up a train bringing fuel to Ukrainian forces.

While Ukrainian forces continue to bring up reserves and equipment to the front line zones, the rebels have been building defenses, including fortifications and anti-tank trenches. "Novorussia" has also established a number of training centers, training men for using artillery, de-mining bridges and buildings, rescuing hostages, and for quick response maneuvers. Some 200 military vehicles are undergoing repair - some 50 expected to be shipped to active service within the week.

Reports that the Ukrainian side disbanded the Shakhtyorsk volunteer battalion, while the Cherkass battalion of 400 men deserted. Another 200 soldiers of the 55 Airmobile Brigade refused to serve.

Ukraininans still trapped in pockets have been given the option to leave safely, if they leave behind their weapons/ armoured vehicles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Sep 2014 13:59

what food are the surrounded pockets eating? I understand the donetsk airport is probably still supplied by air. what about the big pocket with remnants of several mechanized units?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Sep 2014 16:49

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 32501.html

Ukraine crisis: Luhansk celebrates end of weeks of shelling
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 32501.html

he conflict-wracked eastern Ukraine city of Luhansk had a rare day of jubilation yesterday as pro-Russian fighters paraded military vehicles victoriously through city streets – as other areas saw continued shelling in the conflict between government forces and the rebels.

In the other regional capital of Donetsk, the city council said yesterday that shelling hit two residential neighborhoods near a government-held airport.

Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council spokesman Volodymyr Polyovyi said that government troops repelled an attack at the airport by about 200 fighters late on Saturday, and there were no military casualties.

A ceasefire deal, imposed on 5 September, has broadly been riddled by violations, and explosions still ring out daily in Donetsk. But in some towns, the decline in fighting has allowed for a return to some kind of normality, as shell-shocked residents emerge from the basements where they hid from shelling for weeks and come to grips with the damage incurred by nearly five months of fighting.

Signs of life are gradually returning to Luhansk, which was bombarded by shelling from Ukrainian forces as they attempted to uproot separatist rebels operating in the city.

Luhansk’s population of about 250,000 people, reduced because of the war, emerged to celebrate “city day” yesterday, which opened on a sombre note as priests led hundreds of residents in prayer in commemoration of those killed during a government-mounted siege of the city.

Speaking at the open-air service by the Mother of Sorrows Church, local separatist leader Igor Plotnitsky mourned those that had been killed and in an unusually conciliatory public statement called for forgiveness for those responsible.

A Russian aid convoy arrived on Saturday in Luhansk in an effort to relieve shortages in the city, but the border crossing did not have the approval of Kiev or oversight of the international Red Cross.

Under a scratched-out sign reading “Strong Ukraine”, men in camouflage handed out chocolate, drinking water, soap, toilet paper, nappies and other basic requirements to a large crowd of residents patiently waiting in line.

Ukraine’s Defence Minister, Valery Heletey, said yesterday that Nato countries were delivering weapons to his country to equip it to fight pro-Russian separatists and “stop” Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Earlier this month, a senior Ukrainian official said Kiev had agreed on the provision of weapons and military advisers from several members of the alliance. Four of the five countries named, including the US, denied this.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Sep 2014 22:18

Deans wrote: Reports that the Ukrainian side disbanded the Shakhtyorsk volunteer battalion, while the Cherkass battalion of 400 men deserted. Another 200 soldiers of the 55 Airmobile Brigade refused to serve.

Shakhtorsk doesnt look like its disbanded.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Sep 2014 02:22

Gen.Winter rubbing his hands in anticipation of a UKR capitulation!

Russia freezes Ukraine into submission: Kiev admits country doesn't have enough fuel for winter
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 34516.html

There’s no gas. The mines have been bombed. Kim Sengupta reports from Grabova on the bleak winter ahead

The fields around Grabova and Debaltseve became the focus of international attention as the crash site of Flight MH17. But along the roads leading to the villages are reminders, on the scarred landscape, of another casualty of Ukraine’s civil war which will have a huge impact in the coming months – the coal mines that have been closed down.

An energy crisis, started when Vladimir Putin cut off the gas from Russia, has been severely exacerbated by the disruption of coal supplies. This country is facing the prospect of the grimmest of winters; the threat of cities starved of fuel for heating and delivery of food while, at the same time, facing artillery and air strikes.

Europe has experienced winter conflicts since the Second World War. But while the population of Sarajevo during the siege in the early 1990s was around 430,000, there are more than one million people living in Donetsk alone, along with 440,000 in Luhansk, and, on the edge of the battlezone, 1.43 million in Kharkiv.

Cities not directly affected by the fighting, such as the capital Kiev and Lviv in the west, will also be in General Winter’s frontline. Numbers of inhabitants have swollen to three million and 800,000, respectively, as internal refuges arrive from the east and Crimea.

The Ukrainian government admits that it does not have enough fuel to heat homes and keep factories running through the winter. And the crisis comes with an economy already in meltdown. It was expected to contract by 7 per cent, but Valeria Gontareva, head of the National Bank of Ukraine, warned at the weekend that the real figure is likely to be 10 per cent. Exports to Russia, a key market, will fall by 35 per cent, she added; meanwhile the currency, the hryvnia, has depreciated by 50 per cent against the dollar in the past nine months.

After Russia cut off gas supplies to Ukraine in a dispute over unpaid bills, Kiev sought to replace the shortfall through “reverse flows”, taking Russian gas from countries such as Poland, Hungary and Slovakia. But Gazprom, Russia’s state gas company, has complained over the practice, denouncing it as “ a semi fraudulent mechanism” and threatened to reduce exports to these states so that none is left to send on to Ukraine.

Speaking at the Yalta international conference, held in Kiev this year after the annexation of Crimea by the Kremlin, Ukraine’s Energy Minister, Yuriy Prodan, accused Russia of “blatantly using gas as a political tool”. To survive the winter, he added, “rather unpopular measures, including administrative ones aimed at reducing energy consumption, will have to be taken”.

The cutting of coal stocks has been a blow. Ukraine is Europe’s second-largest producer: but more than half of its 115 mines have stopped operating and output has plummeted. The Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, said : “The mines have been bombed, so there’s no production of thermal coal; without supplies to power plants, there are problems with electricity and heating. It’s obvious the situation in the winter is going to be very difficult.”

Oleg Tsarev, a former presidential candidate who is now a separatist leader wanted by the Kiev government for treason, agrees with Mr Yatsenyuk that what happens in the winter will be of crucial interest. “I expect major upheavals for Ukraine ahead: most importantly, how will it handle the winter, the cold , the economic crisis that is now arriving in Ukraine?”

The regions seeking to break away, Donetsk and Luhansk, will escape this problem, Mr Tsarev and his allies believe. Russia has pipelines into the region and talks over cheap deals have already begun. But nothing can be guaranteed at a time of strife: power stations in Donetsk have been hit a number of times recently by Ukrainian government fire, leading to electricity and water being cut off, and supplies remain vulnerable to sabotage.

At the port of Mariupol, which has been under repeated attacks by rebel forces backed by Russian armour, members of the Azov Battalion, one of a number of oligarch-funded private armies fighting for Kiev, claim they have plans for the pipelines. “In normal times, blowing up a pipeline would be terrorism; but here we are fighting terrorists and if their Russian masters are using gas supplies as a weapon, surely it is justified,” maintained Denys, a former laboratory technician from Kharkiv, who joined the force four months ago. “If they make the rest of the country suffer, then the territory controlled by the terrorists should suffer as well.”

His comrade Grigory, a former teacher from Kiev, was not sure: “It will only make ordinary Ukrainians suffer, the DPR [Donetsk People’s Republic] heads will have their own fuel and generators. It seems to me the only winners out of this winter will be the Russians. They always win in winter, don’t they?”

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Sep 2014 04:55

“The mines have been bombed,

Who bombed the mines? Arsenic or Chocolate? I didn't know anyone except they, have been bombing anything in Ukraine?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Sep 2014 09:06

Check this

US envoy to Ukraine caught posting fake images on Twitter

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 16 Sep 2014 11:52

Singha wrote:what food are the surrounded pockets eating? I understand the donetsk airport is probably still supplied by air. what about the big pocket with remnants of several mechanized units?

From whatever I can gather from Russian & Ukrainian news clips:
- Some units surrounded in pockets are foraging off the land. Its not too difficult, as there are not that many soldiers and that
region of Ukraine, in summer, has a lot of farm produce available. There was one video where a journalist was dropped into one of the
pockets and was thanked by soldiers for bringing some food with him.
- POW exchanges have started.
- In some cases there seems to be an agreement that the Ukrainian units will leave their weapons intact, in return for supplies
and safe passage out. A lot of the armour recovered from pockets is in surprisingly good condition and that is what is equipping
most separatist units. (Tank models in Russia and Ukraine are largely different and there are hardly any `Russian' tanks
recovered from the rebel side (they have mostly captured T-64's).

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dragon_f ... iginal.jpg

I'm posting a map from a Ukrainian source, giving the situation on 12-14th Sept, which is broadly in line with the Russian maps
posted earlier. This map gives some indication of Ukrainian unit strength.
It shows for e.g. that (blue circle in the North East of the map), units comprising 3100 men, which were trapped in the Luhansk pocket, moved out and then moved West (dotted blue arrow) conceding the area North of Luhansk to the rebels.
Interestingly, while unit strength is mentioned for all Ukrainian army & militia groupings, it is silent about the number still trapped
in the big pockets in the center of the Pink area.

Mariupol is defended by 3200 men + militia units, with 50 tanks and 150 APC's.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Sep 2014 07:16

Ukraine Votes

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Sep 2014 13:39

Japan to decide on more sanctions against Russia based on US, EU position — official

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Sep 2014 17:17

Clark: United States invested $ 5 billion in NGOs in Ukraine for the overthrow of Yanukovych

http://ria.ru/world/20140918/1024608632.html

BELGRADE, September 18 - RIA Novosti. USA invested $ 5 billion in various non-governmental organizations in Ukraine to finance activities aimed at overthrowing President Viktor Yanukovych and the legitimately elected government in this country. Such data led on Thursday at an international scientific conference in Belgrade journalist and social activist Neil Clark (UK).

"In Ukraine, spent $ 5 billion on the action against the government. This is taxpayers' money the United States, which were sent to the NGOs (nongovernmental organizations) in the Ukraine, to overthrow the legitimate government of the country," - said Clark.

According to him, since the bombing in 1999, NATO countries sovereign Yugoslavia, the world is already an undeclared "third world war" waged by the United States and the leading NATO countries against the "strategically important countries" trying to carry out their own policies. Before direct military intervention, as a first step, "certainly is an economic attack on the country, to impose economic sanctions," the expert said. Also, if necessary, being encouraging terrorist activity in unwanted countries - this is done "for attacks on government forces and incite civil war."

"We can see how they work together in those days, and in the Ukraine. A list of independent countries around the world who have been attacked since 1999, is very extensive and constantly expanding - it's Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, now comes the threat to against Russia - we see the sanctions we see the demonization of its leader, "- said Clark.

At a conference on the centenary of the First World War, he noted that "the policy of today's Western leaders even more terrible than it was 100 years ago."

"The fight is conducted for the right of independent states in democracy, the right to maintain their independence ... States should have the right to their own political, economic, social, and so on system. We must support the efforts of countries around the world to pursue their own policies, to maintain its independence and not be puppet in the hands of external forces, "- said the Briton.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Sep 2014 17:57

New Japanese sanctions against Russia to make matters worse — China ForMin

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Sep 2014 21:46

Russia proposes appointing special UN chief envoy for MH17 crash probe

Russia proposes that UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon looks at the possibility of appointing a UN special envoy for the MH17 crash probe. Russian Permanent Representative at the UN, Vitaly Churkin, also said on Friday at a UN Security Council meeting that a special mission should be sent to the crash site in eastern Ukraine in collaboration with the OSCE, ITAR-TASS reported. Churkin also urged Western states to publish information they have on the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Sep 2014 10:24

Parties at Minsk Talks Agree on Memorandum Regulating Ukrainian Ceasefire Implementation

MINSK, September 20 (RIA Novosti) – Kiev authorities and pro-independence fighters in southeastern Ukraine have agreed on complete ceasefire, establishment of the buffer zone, withdrawal of heavy weapons away from the contact line on both sides, and deployment of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) monitoring mission.

Early Saturday morning parties at the talks in Minsk – Russia, Ukraine, the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's republics and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) – aligned positions and formulated a memorandum of nine provisions that will regulate the implementation of a ceasefire agreement between Kiev and independence supporters in eastern Ukraine. Leonid Kuchma, former Ukrainian president representing the country at the talks, read out the provisions of the memorandum at the conclusion of the talks.

MINSK MEMORANDUM

1. Ceasefire is to be considered bilateral.

2. Military elements and military formations shall be stopped at their contact line as of September 19.

3. Usage of all kinds of weapons and offensive actions are prohibited.

4. Within 24 hours after the approval of this memorandum weapons with a calibre of more than 100 millimeters shall be moved at least 15 kilometers away from the contact line on both sides, including from the residential areas, which would create an opportunity to establish a 30-kilometers buffer zone.

5. Deployment of heavy weapons and heavy equipment in the region confined by the residential areas [Kuchma did not specify which areas are listed in the memorandum] is prohibited.

6. Placing of mine barriers at the border of the buffer zone is prohibited. Mine barriers that were placed earlier within the buffer zone shall be removed.

7. Flights of operational aircrafts and foreign aerial vehicles except for the vehicles of the OSCE over the buffer zone are prohibited.

8. In the ceasefire zone the OSCE monitoring mission, consisting of the group of the organization's observers shall be deployed within 24 hours after the approval of this memorandum. It is desirable that the above mentioned zone shall be divided into sectors. The number of the sectors' borders shall be negotiated in the course of the preparation to the work of the OSCE monitoring mission's group of observers.

9. All the foreign armed groups, military equipment, as well as fighters and mercenaries shall withdraw from the Ukrainian territory under the supervision of the OSCE.

MINSK PROTOCOL

Minsk protocol, signed by the Trilateral negotiation group on September 5, addresses more issues and consists of 12 provisions. The protocol envisages a ceasefire and suggests, among other things, that Ukraine should adopt a law on granting special status to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and early elections of the heads of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk republics. The document also stipulates that the consent of the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics with regard to the adoption of the law would not mean abandonment of their independence. The leaders of the self-defense forces also declared that they lay claim to all of the territories in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and would not consent to the "special status" only for the parts of the territories under their control.

LAW ON SPECIAL STATUS

September 16 Ukraine's parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, approved a law on special status of parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, submitted by President Petro Poroshenko. The law introduces self-administration, states that local elections are to take place in the regions on December 7 and guarantees the right to use Russian or any other language in Ukraine.

The law envisages that the local authorities would be able to make agreements with the central state bodies on economic, social and cultural development.

Moreover, these regions will be granted a special economic status, which will help to restore industry and infrastructure, as well as attract investments and create jobs.

The Contact Group on the Ukrainian crisis, comprising officials from Russia, Ukraine, the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's republics and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, began a new round of talks in Belorussian capital, Minsk, on Friday.

The agenda of the talks mainly focused on the discussion of a document that would regulate the implementation of a ceasefire agreement between Kiev and independence supporters in eastern Ukraine, reached on September 5.

The meeting of the group on September 5 resulted in a fragile ceasefire between Kiev and independence supporters in eastern Ukraine.

The five-months conflict has already killed over 3,000 people and wreaked havoc on Ukraine's economy, also leading to the biggest confrontation between Russia and the West since the Cold War.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Sep 2014 10:36

WTF, Kiev has essentially agreed to all the demands of the so called separatists and what the Russians were seeking.

If this is a victory for the west. Then I surely wish to know, what a defeat would look like.

In effect, the Russians have won this war.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 20 Sep 2014 11:12

^^it was a stupid and unnecessary move by the Obama administration and has thoroughly undermined American credibility yet again... I don't know who is advising these moves...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Sep 2014 11:16

JE Menon wrote:^^it was a stupid and unnecessary move by the Obama administration and has thoroughly undermined American credibility yet again... I don't know who is advising these moves...

It seems according to Stephen Cohen the FP failure of Obama Adminstration is due to the group of adviser he has , not just Ukraine , look at Libya & Bengazi , Afghanistan , Syria and Arab spring in general , Israel/Palestanian issue where Israel openly complained of Obama/John Kerry pushing Israel and now Iraq

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Sep 2014 11:29

More likely he is thinking I must do some thing. Coupled with a bunch of leftist idealouges in the administration.

So he is doing it.

As no professional official in his right mind would suggest something as stupid as this.

Hell we have seen people who were senior officials towards the end of the cold war oppose this move as a needless provocation. Also he is not a politician so would not be able to understand the long term political ramifications of his actions. We see this in his actions towards the India as well.

He has alienated the Russians with his action for a long time to come. Cause after this, I don't think that the Russians will just sit tight.

We may just see the Russians try to rebuild the Union. With the like minded states.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Sep 2014 11:49

Austin wrote:Parties at Minsk Talks Agree on Memorandum Regulating Ukrainian Ceasefire Implementation
MINSK, September 20 (RIA Novosti) – Kiev authorities and pro-independence fighters in southeastern Ukraine have agreed on complete ceasefire, establishment of the buffer zone, withdrawal of heavy weapons away from the contact line on both sides, and deployment of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) monitoring mission.

Early Saturday morning parties at the talks in Minsk – Russia, Ukraine, the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's republics and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) – aligned positions and formulated a memorandum of nine provisions that will regulate the implementation of a ceasefire agreement between Kiev and independence supporters in eastern Ukraine. Leonid Kuchma, former Ukrainian president representing the country at the talks, read out the provisions of the memorandum at the conclusion of the talks.

MINSK MEMORANDUM

1. Ceasefire is to be considered bilateral.

2. Military elements and military formations shall be stopped at their contact line as of September 19.

3. Usage of all kinds of weapons and offensive actions are prohibited.

4. Within 24 hours after the approval of this memorandum weapons with a calibre of more than 100 millimeters shall be moved at least 15 kilometers away from the contact line on both sides, including from the residential areas, which would create an opportunity to establish a 30-kilometers buffer zone.

5. Deployment of heavy weapons and heavy equipment in the region confined by the residential areas [Kuchma did not specify which areas are listed in the memorandum] is prohibited.

6. Placing of mine barriers at the border of the buffer zone is prohibited. Mine barriers that were placed earlier within the buffer zone shall be removed.

7. Flights of operational aircrafts and foreign aerial vehicles except for the vehicles of the OSCE over the buffer zone are prohibited.

8. In the ceasefire zone the OSCE monitoring mission, consisting of the group of the organization's observers shall be deployed within 24 hours after the approval of this memorandum. It is desirable that the above mentioned zone shall be divided into sectors. The number of the sectors' borders shall be negotiated in the course of the preparation to the work of the OSCE monitoring mission's group of observers.

9. All the foreign armed groups, military equipment, as well as fighters and mercenaries shall withdraw from the Ukrainian territory under the supervision of the OSCE.

MINSK PROTOCOL

Minsk protocol, signed by the Trilateral negotiation group on September 5, addresses more issues and consists of 12 provisions. The protocol envisages a ceasefire and suggests, among other things, that Ukraine should adopt a law on granting special status to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and early elections of the heads of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk republics. The document also stipulates that the consent of the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics with regard to the adoption of the law would not mean abandonment of their independence. The leaders of the self-defense forces also declared that they lay claim to all of the territories in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and would not consent to the "special status" only for the parts of the territories under their control.

LAW ON SPECIAL STATUS

September 16 Ukraine's parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, approved a law on special status of parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, submitted by President Petro Poroshenko. The law introduces self-administration, states that local elections are to take place in the regions on December 7 and guarantees the right to use Russian or any other language in Ukraine.

The law envisages that the local authorities would be able to make agreements with the central state bodies on economic, social and cultural development.

Moreover, these regions will be granted a special economic status, which will help to restore industry and infrastructure, as well as attract investments and create jobs.

The Contact Group on the Ukrainian crisis, comprising officials from Russia, Ukraine, the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's republics and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, began a new round of talks in Belorussian capital, Minsk, on Friday.

The agenda of the talks mainly focused on the discussion of a document that would regulate the implementation of a ceasefire agreement between Kiev and independence supporters in eastern Ukraine, reached on September 5.

The meeting of the group on September 5 resulted in a fragile ceasefire between Kiev and independence supporters in eastern Ukraine.

The five-months conflict has already killed over 3,000 people and wreaked havoc on Ukraine's economy, also leading to the biggest confrontation between Russia and the West since the Cold War.

^^^^

Wont work (or even cant work). Same fate as the last ceasefire. Will ukraine leave division strength armor and evacuate mariupol, donetsk airport and the pockets?

Besides ukraine is out of the news. West is praying for early winter so fighting can be put off till next Spring (anyone remember afpak spring offensives?).

When will it snow?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 20 Sep 2014 14:17

I mean, for fu(ksakes, with 30 minutes of Obama's time a day, anyone of a number of us could have done a better job of securing US interests in a more sustainable fashion...

1. Which hero thinks it is worthwhile to provoke the bear in its backyard (forget "Near Abroad"), especially after agreeing that you wouldn't do it, unless you are virtually certain that you can secure a desirable outcome... Shouldn't you have backtracked once the Nuland and Pyatt fiasco materialised, recognising immediately that this was a bunch of amateurs dicking around in a danger zone?

2. Libya? OK it is a necessary mess, but the US could have done with a lower profile there. But this one is OK, hard to say anyone else could have done better.

3. Afghanistan - do we really need to go into this? I mean, the comprehensive fu(k up by the US there has been analysed and vaginised to death... But there's more to come on this front, so, good for the popcorn industry for some...

4. Iraq. Well, we all know how that stands now....

Obama's foreign policy has been an utter disaster... But somehow, it seems to me that he is less to blame than the people around him... Something's pre-occupying the man, but it's certainly not the state of the world. Is it the state of the union? Maybe some white American dude(tte) can flesh that one out.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Sep 2014 14:25

JE Menon wrote:^^it was a stupid and unnecessary move by the Obama administration and has thoroughly undermined American credibility yet again... I don't know who is advising these moves...

My guess: the advice comes to a large extent from Susan rice who is both stuck up and somewhat of an idiot.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 20 Sep 2014 15:49

Its the entire establishment. The discourse in Washington is completely hijacked. You read the New York Times or Washington Post and you get an idea. We should bomb everyone. And everyone except America is evil. Putin is pure evil. Heck, even Merkel is ex-Stasi.

There is little room to maneuvre for Obama. His hand was almost forced into bombing Syria till the horsemouth shouted his chemical weapons gaffe.
Obama has been very sane. He has been acting against the US establishment. He should get credit for keeping American engagement abroad to minimum. We would have been staring at a third world war if we had someone like GWB2 or McCain at the helm.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Sep 2014 17:16

KLNMurthy wrote:
JE Menon wrote:^^it was a stupid and unnecessary move by the Obama administration and has thoroughly undermined American credibility yet again... I don't know who is advising these moves...
My guess: the advice comes to a large extent from Susan rice who is both stuck up and somewhat of an idiot.

As per Stephan Cohen no one knows who Advises Obama on Russian matters , White House is not keen to let the world know , even recently when Kissinger wanted to meet Obama over Ukraine crises he was denied a meet.