Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Jan 2015 05:21

^^^ boss, India funded the IMF to the tune of 10 billion $ or some thing in the order of billions a couple of years ago. The con job here is that the americans get to run their own little wars with other countries and pay for any "collateral damage" with loans from a bank funded by countries that have no dog in this fight, so they get to spread the risk around while cornering all the benefits. Nice little hustle going on there. Oil prices dropping are hurting the US and canada too but this is likely to be temporary, as the saudis are going to feel their foreskins being yanked shortly if they cut down their margins this steeply for a few years. The economies of the world other than oil producing countries get to have a good time, so I am not complaining, really.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 22 Jan 2015 11:08

something,something, forget the Ceasjefyre, lefts fighting instead.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 22 Jan 2015 16:26

Polish PM personally invited Chocolate for the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwicz. Putin not invited.
Strange, considering it was the Red Army that liberated Auschwicz. I imagine Merkel is attending.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jan 2015 17:07

Media reports.Chocolate soldiers have just retreated from Donestsk airport.What gives? Backsides whipped or under pressure?

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jan 2015 17:39

Fighting is to continue. Yats papa wants it to continue. It seems that the Pro Russians will have to kick some serious b*tts to drill it into the head of western leaders that they cant achieve anything in ukraine other than creating chaos. Hope that happens soon.

At a session of the United Nations Security Council late on Wednesday, the United States denounced a Russian peace plan as an “occupation plan.”

The Ukrainian army looks no good and the militias are loosing. Economy is gone. Russian threat looms. What possibly could go worse.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jan 2015 18:02

Donetsk bus hit by mortar as Ukrainian forces lose control of airport
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... g-kills-13

Donetsk bus hit by mortar as Ukrainian forces lose control of airport
Conflicting reports of who was responsible for mortar attack that killed at least eight in separatist stronghold
Shaun Walker in Donetsk
The Guardian, Thursday 22 January 2015 11.45 GMT

A new attempt to create a lasting ceasefire in eastern Ukraine was left in tatters in just a matter of hours, after a trolleybus in the rebel stronghold of Donetsk was apparently hit by mortar fire. Conflicting reports put the death toll at between eight and 13.

The trolleybus in Donetsk had all its windows blown out, with pools of blood on the floor. There was also major shrapnel damage to a nearby building.

“I saw dead people on the floor, and injured women screaming for help,” said Ivan, a 74-year-old who lives in the building next to the blast. He had a cut face from his windows, which had been blown out by the explosion. “It was a scene of total chaos.”
As has happened many times during the conflict, both sides had drastically differing versions of the attack.

Rebel gunmen on the scene said the attack had been carried out by a pro-Ukrainian diversionary group, though there was no way of confirming this immediately. Ukrainian officials said their forces were located too far from the spot to be responsible, with the prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, calling it “a terrible act against humanity” committed by “Russian terrorists”.

The location did indeed appear to be out of mortar range of Ukrainian positions, though it also seemed unlikely that separatists would have any reason to carry out the attack. One local person said the rebels had been repairing tanks in a factory across the street from the blast, which was perhaps the target of the attack.

Rebels on the scene said 13 people had died, but the morgue said it had received eight bodies from the scene.

The deaths came after Ukrainian forces admitted they had lost control of Donetsk airport late on Wednesday, and foreign ministers of Russia and Ukraine agreed as a meeting in Berlin to move artillery back from the frontline.

A statement from the meeting, also attended by France and Germany’s foreign ministers, said the quartet had agreed artillery should be withdrawn in accordance with a ceasefire agreement signed in Minsk in September. However, so far there has been little sign that a ceasefire can hold, and in recent days a new wave of heavy fighting has broken out, notably at the airport, a symbolic battlefield where Ukrainian forces appear to have sustained many casualties.

One Ukrainian soldier, captured at the airport, was brought by rebels to the scene of the bus attack on Thursday morning, where locals shouted at him and tried to hit him. He was swiftly driven off.

Rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko said he would make other Ukrainian prisoners walk from the airport to the scene of the bus attack and “ask for forgiveness”, Interfax reported.

On Wednesday, Moscow and Kiev again traded mutual accusations of warmongering, as fighting and heavy shelling continued on the ground in east Ukraine and residential areas continued to come under fire.

Ukraine’s president, Petro Poroshenko, told the World Economic Forum in Davos there were currently more than 9,000 Russian soldiers on the ground in east Ukraine, and said it was up to Moscow to end the conflict, which has so far cost at least 4,800 lives.

“The solution is very simple – stop supplying weapons … withdraw the troops and close the border. Very simple peace plan. If you want to discuss something different, it means you are not for peace, you are for war,” he said.

In Moscow, however, Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said it was down to Kiev to stop its assault and begin negotiations, and called for an immediate ceasefire.

He again denied that Russian troops were active in Ukraine, saying no proof had been offered, despite evidence of secret military funerals inside Russia, and repeated sightings of Russian military hardware inside Ukraine.

Sergei Lavrov at a press conference in Moscow
Sergei Lavrov at a press conference in Moscow. Photograph: Dai Tianfang/Dai Tianfang/Xinhua Press/Corbis

However, despite all the signs that Russia has backed the rebels with firepower and at times manpower, Ukraine has not offered any evidence that would suggest Poroshenko’s 9,000 figure is accurate.

Privately, some rebels in Donetsk admit they have received help from Moscow, but deny that the number of Russian soldiers present is in the thousands. With Russia’s economy in trouble, there have been suggestions that the president, Vladimir Putin, may be looking for a way out of the conflict, and Lavrov again said Kiev should begin talks with representatives of the Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics”.

A longstanding pattern whereby rebels shell Ukrainian positions from close to residential areas, the Ukrainians fire back imprecisely and civilians die has been continuing in recent days, with a new wave of fighting breaking out that may be about strengthening positions ahead of a putative meeting between Putin and Poroshenko.

The meeting was planned to take place in the Kazakh capital of Astana last week, with the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French president, François Hollande, in attendance, but it was postponed. Instead, the foreign ministers of the four countries met in Berlin late on Wednesday.

“The Russian objective seems to be to sustain a problem rather than find a solution,” said one western diplomat in Kiev. The sides agreed to a ceasefire in Minsk in September, but the truce was broken almost as soon as it started and has collapsed completely in recent days.

The most intense fighting has come at Donetsk airport, which until last May was a shiny new complex built for the Euro 2012 football tournament, but has now become a hugely symbolic military prize. It has been controlled by the Ukrainians since the beginning of the conflict despite several rebel attempts to seize it, and the airport’s defenders, colloquially known as “cyborgs”, have become cult heroes in Ukraine.

However, a renewed rebel offensive has dislodged them from most of the airport, and late on Wednesday evening Ukrainian volunteer brigades admitted they had lost all control over the complex, blaming poor decision-making among the army leadership.

Several Ukrainian soldiers were wounded there on Monday after shelling caused the collapse of a ceiling. Rebel forces took eight Ukrainian soldiers prisoner who were then interviewed on Russian television. Russian journalists also showed what they said were the corpses of Ukrainian soldiers inside the airport building.

Analysts are saying that as the fighting continues,the division of the UKR is getting wider,with both sides ,locals,now starting to view the other side as enemies.As more casualties from the war increase,the UKR will despite efforts by thoae who want to see the country united in some form at least,get partitioned both territorially as well as mentally into pro and anti-Russian halves. With the US sponsoring the UKR regime in Kiev, and not wanting to compromise with Russia,one can kiss the UKR as we knew it goodbye. In the natural order of things,it is inevitable if matters continue on their current course that one day the eastern half will be absorbed by Russia just like the Crimea or in some form of confederation. More chocolate soldiers will simply melt in the heat.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jan 2015 20:02

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/246267.html

Battalion commander among the Ukbapzis captured by Pro-Russians at the airport. 16 in all.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Jan 2015 20:33

Rsoami:

It seems that the Pro Russians will have to kick some serious b*tts to drill it into the head of western leaders that they cant achieve anything in ukraine other than creating chaos. Hope that happens soon.

It seems like creating Chaos in Ukraine to split Russian cooperation/trade with the EU is the main goal of the "western" (US) govt., so Russia's best bet is to create a new border in the ukraine at the river and just declare victory as far as ukraine is concerned.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jan 2015 20:45

US trainers to deploy to Ukraine. This is interesting. This will get a Russian response IMHO.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /22119315/

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jan 2015 21:35

I was wondering if there will be a time when the Indian govt will apply sanctions against such regimes as the Ukbapzis using human rights violation as a reason. Afterall, arent they shelling their own ciizens. Or the white christians are the only ones who will continue to use this high morality tool.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jan 2015 23:55

Russia, Ukraine agree on pullback line for heavy weapons

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/22 ... y-weapons/

The pro-Russians have the upper hand everywhere it seems. If an actual lasting ceasefire does take place, then the west will be forced to shell out approximately $50 billion in the next 2 years to sustain the current Junta.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 23 Jan 2015 08:20

The US has openly stated (in congressional hearings) that it does not intend to shell out any dole to Ukraine -- it will shell out the bare minimum to keep ukraine afloat and dependent.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jan 2015 08:44

Philip wrote:Media reports.Chocolate soldiers have just retreated from Donestsk airport.What gives? Backsides whipped or under pressure?

The Ukrainians never recaptured the airport (contrary to their media reports, which the Western Media just repeated).
After a lot of pressure from the Ukrainian media (after an independent English journalist reported that the airport was very
much in rebel hands) to give them access to the airport, came the statement that heavy rebel attacks forced the Ukies to
give up the airport.

The actual airport complex is very big, as it used to house a Soviet airborne division - its underground C&C facilities are probably
what both sides want.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 23 Jan 2015 12:01

The actual airport complex is very big, as it used to house a Soviet airborne division - its underground C&C facilities are probably
what both sides want.

According to the Pro Russian sources, the airport lies at a high ground, little distance from the city itself and was being used by Ukbapzis to shell the city and therefore it was a matter of `life and death` for them to capture it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jan 2015 12:37

Deans wrote:Polish PM personally invited Chocolate for the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwicz. Putin not invited.
Strange, considering it was the Red Army that liberated Auschwicz. I imagine Merkel is attending.

I think this is a partly some Russian smart play here, they know that the moment West is not distracted, they will use Islamic Assets Chechenya and Nato assets to go at them in Ukraine.

For the West the cold war does not end until the Nuke threat from Russia is completely eliminated. They can play in the rest of the world with immunity as they cannot endanger their Homeland. The rest of the world including Russia believed the cold war over only to be stabbed in the back in the Balkans and now CIS countries.

Thank God Pakis did Kargil during Kosovo so the 3.5 friends could not back them up fully.

The only thing that saved the Russians in early 2000's was 9/11 and they hope that Islamic Terror will focus itself on the West and Western project of de arming them will be stopped.

So the Russians do not want to appear Pro Jewish as they would like the Islamic world to be focused on the Jewish Western conspiracies.

Lets see where this goes, the West has played with fire by actively working with the China and Saudis to make sure Pakis are Nuke armed with India specific missiles. So far there has been no means where this arsenal could reach Western cities, it is ok.

The Anti Islamic state has been China where practice of Islam is literally banned with so much restrictions yet is considered pro islamic.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 23 Jan 2015 14:41

^^^^

Russia is the favored "regime" today. By the time Russia is done, manufacturing will be rebased and it will be china's turn, and then the next one. Guess who might qualify.

There is nothing specific against Russia here, in fact they are only pissed because they are a white country that is being basketed with the muslims and other heathen.

Dont relate Kosovo/Kargil. The same GoI would have stood up the same way, kosovo or not. That establishment, myopic due to limited foreign exposure, was not all useless. Perhaps the last of the old nationalism.

It is naive to think Bak is anti India only. It is also anti Iran. It is just as much anti China, in fact, due to uigharland. Where else do the west find any leverage over western china.

Just the same India is anti china, has been since 1952. The kings of the world (and that includes indian politicians) are not remotely connected to "people". If it were not bakistan and chechnya, it would be ukraine and bangladesh. They are air dropping grapes in purulia or mariupol with equal magnanimity.

Kargil was not a terrible chapter. It was not 1971, but it was not 1962 either. Russia would do well to make a Kargil out of the preSent conflict.

Like prisons, wars are now privatised. Business will find a way to keep them going.

my 1.5nyp, in chaste grammar correct queens favorite language.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 23 Jan 2015 22:32

On Ukrainian economy.
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-a ... and-better

It may soon become clear that it is Russia, not the West, that holds the most sway over Ukraine’s economy.

Meanwhile the Donetsk republic is threatening an offensive and has rejected the peace talks. He has also said, no more peace efforts will be made.

"If Poroshenko comes here, we will talk. We are advancing now - (so), what talks?" he said.

A Ukrainian military spokesman dismissed the remarks as "just another declaration - let them talk."

The Ukbapzi military spokesmen and leaders seem to be the biggest morons. They claimed that they had recaptured the airport three days ago with `mass offensive` which turned out to be untrue. Before this they had claimed that the `terrorists` were finished which turned out v premature.They have claimed that Russian army is in Ukraine; with no proof. They seem to have achieved 0 credibility rating now, after, all their hot air declarations. Now, rebels are threatening an offensive and here is another spokesman showing off his bravado.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 24 Jan 2015 08:02

Deans wrote:
Philip wrote:Media reports.Chocolate soldiers have just retreated from Donestsk airport.What gives? Backsides whipped or under pressure?
The Ukrainians never recaptured the airport (contrary to their media reports, which the Western Media just repeated).
After a lot of pressure from the Ukrainian media (after an independent English journalist reported that the airport was very
much in rebel hands) to give them access to the airport, came the statement that heavy rebel attacks forced the Ukies to
give up the airport.

The actual airport complex is very big, as it used to house a Soviet airborne division - its underground C&C facilities are probably
what both sides want.

Very true. I also hear that the airport is more critical for the Uk side so they can stage their advanced launches & surges into rebel-held territory if (and when) they want to do a launch and surge.

However, it never looked as if they could get back the airport. Does look like only the shell of the airport remains. Pretty dilapidated and looks like the access routes and bridges have been blown up!

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 24 Jan 2015 11:01

https://pp.vk.me/c625827/v625827137/13d ... oZJHdY.jpg

This is the latest situation map. Briefly:
- Rebels are threatening to cut off the Ukrainian salient cutting into rebel territory. They have seized the reservoir near the
city of Slavansk and are close to cutting off the only road into the salient. Ukrainians are responding with shelling of the
city of Gorlovka (blue lines).
- Donetsk city is being shelled (not the airport).
- Rebels are staging some limited attacks in the north.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 24 Jan 2015 11:12

[/quote]
Very true. I also hear that the airport is more critical for the Uk side so they can stage their advanced launches & surges into rebel-held territory if (and when) they want to do a launch and surge.

However, it never looked as if they could get back the airport. Does look like only the shell of the airport remains. Pretty dilapidated and looks like the access routes and bridges have been blown up![/quote]

There is nothing left of the airport. There are some news clips of access bridges and underpasses being blown up. However, control of the airport seems to have become a prestige issue with Chocolate. Ukies seem to have moved tanks and artillery from other parts of the front for the attack on the airport.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jan 2015 11:28

Ukies seem to have moved tanks and artillery from other parts of the front for the attack on the airport.

Would it be possible for you to give a link for this? thanks.

I think they had tried to recapture the airport 3 days ago, claimed success but actually had not. Are they moving again?!

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jan 2015 11:34

If one were to ask the remaining residents of Donetsk, even those who have been loyal to the Kiev government, whether they supported this new rebel advance, they would say yes, Mr. Menendez said — and not necessarily for political reasons.

“They just want to push the front lines out of the city,” he said, “to stop the shelling on them.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/24/world ... .html?_r=0

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Jan 2015 15:58

Aditya_V wrote:
Deans wrote:Polish PM personally invited Chocolate for the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwicz. Putin not invited.
Strange, considering it was the Red Army that liberated Auschwicz. I imagine Merkel is attending.
I think this is a partly some Russian smart play here, they know that the moment West is not distracted, they will use Islamic Assets Chechenya and Nato assets to go at them in Ukraine.

For the West the cold war does not end until the Nuke threat from Russia is completely eliminated. They can play in the rest of the world with immunity as they cannot endanger their Homeland. The rest of the world including Russia believed the cold war over only to be stabbed in the back in the Balkans and now CIS countries.

Thank God Pakis did Kargil during Kosovo so the 3.5 friends could not back them up fully.

The only thing that saved the Russians in early 2000's was 9/11 and they hope that Islamic Terror will focus itself on the West and Western project of de arming them will be stopped.

So the Russians do not want to appear Pro Jewish as they would like the Islamic world to be focused on the Jewish Western conspiracies.

Lets see where this goes, the West has played with fire by actively working with the China and Saudis to make sure Pakis are Nuke armed with India specific missiles. So far there has been no means where this arsenal could reach Western cities, it is ok.

The Anti Islamic state has been China where practice of Islam is literally banned with so much restrictions yet is considered pro islamic.

A brilliantly succinct post. Yes, it is interesting to speculate what would have happened if the Pakis had not come through with 9/11 etc. The BapZis would have used Chechnya to destroy Russia. China would be occupying all of Siberia by now and the Siberian sky would be as sooty as that of Shanghai with all the 'fracking' and the cooking fires of Tibetans and Uighurs being "Le-Educated" in making roads through the permafrost. The Golden Arches of Flies would be visible all over Siberia.

Caliph Pervez Gola I would be lording it over Dhimmistan from what remained of Dilli. India would have nice broad roads, built by the armies of Unbeliever Slaves, like the ISIS is kindly demonstrating. Belly-dancing by slave wimmens would be the subcontinental art-form.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 24 Jan 2015 16:20

RSoami wrote:
Ukies seem to have moved tanks and artillery from other parts of the front for the attack on the airport.
Would it be possible for you to give a link for this? thanks.

I think they had tried to recapture the airport 3 days ago, claimed success but actually had not. Are they moving again?!

Source is the Rebel press conferences. I find them more credible than the official Ukrainian press releases. In a recent press conf, rebels admitted that one of its units got lost and came under friendly fire.
Ukies might be forced to shift forces from the airport, to prevent the closure of the salient to the North of Donetsk (see the map I posted earlier). A rebel report is that Ukrainian reserves are being brought up the West of the Dnieper to prevent just that.
Generally the rebels would be better informed of Ukrainian movements since the fighting is taking place inside the rebel
provinces.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 24 Jan 2015 19:42

Aditya_V wrote:

So the Russians do not want to appear Pro Jewish as they would like the Islamic world to be focused on the Jewish Western conspiracies.

Lets see where this goes, the West has played with fire by actively working with the China and Saudis to make sure Pakis are Nuke armed with India specific missiles. So far there has been no means where this arsenal could reach Western cities, it is ok.

The Anti Islamic state has been China where practice of Islam is literally banned with so much restrictions yet is considered pro islamic.

That is probably also why the USSR explicitly arrested all the "je sues charlie hebdo" and made it illegal to say bad things about the prophet, and they are working with turkey a lot these days and turkey is a key supporter of ISIS.
Russia wants the yahoos to rage against the EU/West and consider russians as respectful of islam and the prophet. Perhaps this time the blowback will affect the US/West even more severely than 9/11 for their boneheaded idea of using islamists as a sock puppet against competitor countries…they seem to never learn.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jan 2015 21:37

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/ ... 8B20150124

Pro Russians have lauched an assault as they had said they would.
On Mariupol.
23 dead.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jan 2015 21:47

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... raine.html

Stepan Poltorak, Ukraine’s defence minister, said: “In the last 24 hours the situation has worsened along the whole front: from Lugansk region to Mariupol, illegal armed groups [rebels] are on the attack everywhere.”

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Jan 2015 23:57

NATA jarnails are

that electronic signatures of Russian advanced equipment are being picked up all over eastern (former) Ukraine. I think the reinforcement army of UkBapzis that crossed the Dneiper are going to be encircled leaving Kiev de-briefed.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 25 Jan 2015 00:02

Putin has been royally pi$$ed after Ombaba blamed Russian bear in his state of the union address.
Rebel offensive started after that address which was closely monitored in Moscow to find any sign of
negotiation. Mariupol will fall soon.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Jan 2015 00:43

Now then, the first new big war of 2015 -- http://news.yahoo.com/10-reported-kille ... 20537.html

Chocolate king has returned early from Arabia. Man, these scheduling things! And they cause poor people to clean asphalt with soap and water (and also some times die).

-- Was turned into a frog, am now better.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 25 Jan 2015 01:15

http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/24-january ... debaltseve

Has a map of the current situation along with links to news items on what's happening where.
Russia has a lot of ground to cover before it can declare victory...

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Jan 2015 01:27

^^^ Dont get your hopes up. There is way too much cannon fodder in the mix. This is why ukraine, and not georgia a second time (or would it have been third?). This is a twenty year plan. In the short term, lets just see an open land route to crimea. The straits dont appear to be getting bridged anytime soon.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Jan 2015 08:36

So UkBapZis tried to storm airport in Donetsk, and cut off gas and all else to Crimea. Didn't they know the result?

Sure enough, they are getting smashed in Donetsk airport or what remains is in Freedom Fighter hands, and Mariupol is getting blasted by shelling b4 the vodka convoys arrive.

So why did they do it? Big NATO intervention? French army going to race in and surrender? Wehrmacht going to roll in? 7th Fleet steaming through the Black Sea?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Jan 2015 09:41

El chocolato believes any break in fighting will forever kill the ukraine issue and set status quo in stone like abkhazia, transdniestria, and now east ukrainia. Also, this is the only "job creation" possible to keep young people off the streets under IMF conditions. Nobody is bothered by 5000 killed but he hopes reaching syrian glory will surely "shock the world conscience". In particular, poland is itching for a role for its young people. They all seek jobs in western europe if they dont go to the front in the east.

Why was el chocolato in the sand castle? There is no expectation of a direct NATO intervention, but there is also no holding back of propaganda. It is basically all Lord Haw-Haw for us in open source. This is a business transaction gone wrong in its core. And in collection el chocolato et al must keep their end of the bargain by continuing to keep the mischief making effort.

ps -- the ukranian army believes givej syrian type freedom they could steam roll past rostov, let alone donetsk. so dont expect the govt to settle for anything anytime soon. In a year and more a bridge to crimea would have been great. Yet, it exists not. Why?

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 25 Jan 2015 09:52

In a year and more a bridge to crimea would have been great. Yet, it exists not. Why?

Probably because the strait is about 2 miles approx. so a bridge would be a liability as long as the hostilities don't cease -- it is a lot cheaper to use a ferry to transport stuff across the strait for now, which probably sufficient for now. Seems like wasting time and money on that bridge right now would just make it a larger target for the ukrainian nazis in western ukaraine.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Jan 2015 09:59

Tuvaluan wrote:
In a year and more a bridge to crimea would have been great. Yet, it exists not. Why?
Probably because the strait is about 2 miles approx. so a bridge would be a liability as long as the hostilities don't cease -- it is a lot cheaper to use a ferry to transport stuff across the strait for now, which probably sufficient for now. Seems like wasting time and money on that bridge right now would just make it a larger target for the ukrainian nazis in western ukaraine.

Yes, but also not drawing a line to where Russia "proper" ends. Leaving levers like gas and water for el-chocolato to play with and make neuj.

The bridge is infrastructure, never useless to the public, and inevitable unless boundaries are moving to dniester (they might be). It would have been a lot easier to start the bridge before economic upheaval. Now it may not get started.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 25 Jan 2015 10:12

Shreeman wrote:

The bridge is infrastructure, never useless to the public, and inevitable unless boundaries are moving to dniester (they might be). It would have been a lot easier to start the bridge before economic upheaval. Now it may not get started.

I think the bridge would entitle less risk once the shores of the sea of azov are secured -- and that seems to be a way off...which is what you are saying/implying. However, I belive ferries and cargo ships are good enough for the short term -- they can ply what is needed for crimea for now.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 25 Jan 2015 13:21

And here is Stratfor. I also think that its unlikely that this is an esca-lala-tion. Its too difficult for Russia to do a lot of muck currently. They simply don't have the money. But I did read somewhere that everytime before a peqace conf, both parties do a bit excess to a. size up opponent b. get the best deal possible.

Neither side has an upper hand. And neither wants to back down.

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/red-al ... z3PlHNaknW

In an alternate world, Russia should probably claim all land and eventually land close to Turkey! Now that would be interesting. Then NATO will get to feel what Russians are feeling now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2015 13:28

mariopol being a well developed place would be a good prize for logistics to the crimea and depriving west ukraine of as much coastline as possible.

probably only the taking of all the land upto Kherson at the estauary of the Dnieper (mariopol ,berdyanask, malitopol) would secure the future of east ukraine with a land route to crimea and a viable length of coastline and ports for trading.

else the kievists can always keep them under pressure.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jan 2015 13:40

Mariopol seems to be like revenge attack for the bus attack in Donetsk which saw 15 people die . OSCE who has staff on ground says Mariopol attack came from Sep controlled area and Donetsk from Ukr controlled one.

Though the Donetsk attack was not much carried by western MSM and did not mention OSCE estimates while mariopol attack is getting full coverage