India Media role in contempt and derision about India

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Mar 2014 08:13

Per my 6th coujin, during the IDRF tamasha, a gora who had been an instructor in the Paki equivalent of the Dilli AES, who is apparently considered one of their "Scholars", posted some Paki trash about the IDRF. My 6th coujin sent a rebuttal, from Ak-a-dummy credenshuls and all. Got a note from sarma that the comment was "awaiting moderator approval". U c, he couldn't reject it as being from a "non-akadummy" as he had done with comments from others. Some 2 years later, he sent an email to my 6th coujin asking if he still wanted it posted, that due to a "computer disk error" the comment had been misplaced, etc. Of course by then the FOIL report and all who supported it had been laughed out of town. For the more recent antics of Sarma's RISA dump, see

http://www.hindunet.org/hvk/articles/0504/112.html
Alerting Naked Emperors in an Age of Academic Arrogance

(You have to set character encoding to "western" in your browser to read properly, it's old)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2014 08:13

Posting this as a data point for future reference
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 510663.cms
1 in 3 women abused in European Union

LONDON: One in every three women in the European Union have admitted to experiencing either physical or sexual violence from the age of 15.

The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights says this corresponds to 62 million women.

This came to light in the largest survey on the issue which interviewed 42,000 women. Women aged from 15 to 74 were interviewed. The survey is the most ambitious effort to gauge the extent of sexual violence and harassment experienced by the 186.6 million women in 28 EU member nations.

The survey found that over 100 million women were subject to sexual harassment. Only one in seven women reported intimate partner violence to police.

Around 10% women reported some form of sexual violence since the age of 15, with one in 20 saying she had been raped. That would be more than 9 million rape victims.

Around 75 % of women working in a professional capacity or in top management jobs have experienced sexual harassment in their lifetime and one in four of these women have been confronted with sexual harassment in the 12 months prior to the survey.

Morten Kjaerum, director of the Agency for Fundamental Rights said, "What emerges is a picture of extensive abuse that affects many women's lives but is systematically under-reported to the authorities."

Some 27 % of women have experienced some form of physical abuse in childhood (before the age of 15) at the hands of an adult. Over one in 10 women (12 %) has experienced some form of sexual abuse or incident by an adult before the age of 15.

These forms of abuse typically involve an adult exposing their genitals (8%) or touching the child's genitals or breasts (5%).

At the extreme, 1% of women indicate that they were forced to have sexual intercourse with an adult when they were a child.

In 97% of cases of sexual violence in childhood, the perpetrator was male whereas in cases of physical violence slightly more cases were attributed to men than to women.

Other shocking statistics said that an estimated 13 million women in the EU have expe-rienced physical violence in the course of 12 months before the survey interviews.

An estimated 3.7 million women in the EU have experienced sexual violence in the course of 12 months before the survey interviews.

The report calls on EU countries to treat domestic violence as a public and not a private issue. It says laws and policies relating to sexual harassment should be reviewed.

The survey noted that 22% had suffered from physical or sexual violence by a partner but that 67% did not report the most serious incidents of domestic violence to the police.

About 18% of women said they had been the victims of stalking since the age of 15 and 55% said they had been sexually harassed often in the workplace, the survey found.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 07 Mar 2014 08:15

shiv, as many people including Rajiv Malhotra have pointed out, there is a big difference between modernizing and westernizing. Sending a spacecraft to Mars is modernizing. To do bhumi puja for the new rocket facility is **not**-westernizing.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Mar 2014 08:17

Batra and his Shiksha Bacchao Andolan, and the formidable Smt. Monica Arora are doing for Hindus what the Southern Poverty Law Center and Morris Dees did for minorities in the USA by going after the KKK and Aryan Nations etc and driving them out. I just hope Hindus will now see fit to support Batra's efforts.

Note that of the 240 comments allowed on the NYT farticle, all except some 20 or 30 blasted Doniger and NYT. A true Paki-style Tactical Victory. Must be a 400% sado-masochist, what with her hallucinations of U. Chicago Faculty Orgies (cover of her book) and being buggered with stone idols.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Mar 2014 08:19

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2014 08:20

A_Gupta wrote:shiv, as many people including Rajiv Malhotra have pointed out, there is a big difference between modernizing and westernizing. Sending a spacecraft to Mars is modernizing. To do bhumi puja for the new rocket facility is **not**-westernizing.

Noted. The western mindset seems to be: modernization=westernization

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 07 Mar 2014 08:25

UlanBatori wrote:
Sending a spacecraft to Mars is modernizing. To do bhumi puja for the new rocket facility is **not**-westernizing.
Ah! Buying a Bimmer 750i is *modernizing*. Putting a bindi and sandalwood paste on the grille is *not westernizing*.

Buying a product of German engineering is westernizing too.

Sending the spacecraft to Mars demonstrated a great many new skills added to the Indian repertoire. That is why it is modernizing.

The British building railways in India was not modernizing, it was in most estimations, devastating to India. If nothing more than the guaranteed return to British investors, resulting in hugely overpriced railways, and the oversized returns to British investors gouged from the hides of Indian farmers. (There are other bad effects as well, people as diverse as Mahatma Gandhi to William Jennings Bryan have commented on it.)

Indians building their own railways, now that is modernizing. Same principle as the spacecraft to Mars.

{corrected a spelling mistake}

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2014 09:18

UlanBatori wrote:Batra and his Shiksha Bacchao Andolan, and the formidable Smt. Monica Arora are doing for Hindus what the Southern Poverty Law Center and Morris Dees did for minorities in the USA by going after the KKK and Aryan Nations etc and driving them out. I just hope Hindus will now see fit to support Batra's efforts.

Note that of the 240 comments allowed on the NYT farticle, all except some 20 or 30 blasted Doniger and NYT. A true Paki-style Tactical Victory. Must be a 400% sado-masochist, what with her hallucinations of U. Chicago Faculty Orgies (cover of her book) and being buggered with stone idols.

When I look at the comments in support of Doniger one thing that comes out is an immense pride in what the west is claimed to stand for and a contempt for societies that were colonized. Hindus and India the country are stereotyped as backward, and the west is stereotyped as just and free.

Indian sepoys who echo those views are cheered by that crowd as evinced by the number of "likes" compared to the larger number of comments that go against Doniger.

This thread was started basically to identify and study the sepoy problem. A very large number of Indians are sepoys who blindly agree that everything about the west is better or that all that the west says about India is right. This fifth column is a problem because they respond to criticism by claiming that their rights are being suppressed. Any talk about any rights that others may have is either suppressed or countered by saying that since the west is more wealthy and more powerful, they are always right and that India will somehow become great like the west by a change of mindset and westernization as opposed to real work like literacy, infrastructure and industry.

BRF struggled a great deal before the majority of members understood that mere "privatization" was not going to change the defence industry in India. I think we are in for a long struggle before Indians, including many of our own lurkers and members understand that Indian strength, economy and development are not going to come by act of social meddling in the name of liberalization and freedom of speech. As Russia and China showed, industry and military strength can be acquired in the absence of freedom of speech of social liberalization and I think Indians too should be able to recognize this. It was not the legalization of homosexuality, destruction of the institutions of family and marriage or the insulting of all religious sentiment that made the US a technological-industrial power. But most people seem to believe (wrongly) that it was social freedoms that led to wealth and development.

Our sepoys have not figured that out yet. And it is Indian sepoys who need to learn.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Mar 2014 09:58

My letter to NYT - borrowing from some comments here (thanks).
_______________________________________

Sir,

The article by Ms. Doniger is as disingenuous as it gets. The title is itself nonsensical as the book is not banned. It was withdrawn by the publisher, who assessed that sales in India wouldn’t match the trouble it would cause his company. The first paragraph refers to a blasphemy law which was not the reason for the book’s withdrawal, but rather a law against the instigation of violence or riots. Hindutva, a word for which the closest meaning is “the state of being Hindu”, is labelled as “fundamentalist” – which is in itself rather an odd characterisation for a religion that is neither absolute, nor dependent on any single book or god. And finally, what does all this have to do with Bangalore, other than that an increasingly irrelevant newspaper wanted a catchy op-ed title? Not a ringing endorsement for either NYT, or Ms. Doniger - either as a scholar or as a human being.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 07 Mar 2014 10:05

Social freedom is not necessary at all for wealth and development, only economic freedom. Examples being Dubai, Hongkong, Singapore ... India was called the Golden Bird for 2,000 years when it was ruled by kings, not democrats. It is economic freedom that's the key. But our Nehru Chacha gave us social freedoms and denied us economic freedoms. The result is mass poverty and social unrest. Social freedoms are over-rated -- when given a choice, people would always prefer wealth over freedoms. For example, if Indians are offered citizenship of Dubai or Singapore, there will a stampede to these countries. Indians will have no problem in leaving social freedoms behind in exchange for wealth. Nehru couldn't comprehend this simple fact, and this shows how little understanding he had of the world and Indian history when he imposed Soviet-style socialism on us.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 07 Mar 2014 10:46

There are two problems with comparing India to city states. One is the scale in terms of people and area and the other is they are mainly trading posts and I suspect are used for transfer pricing. Dubayya itself was setup as a trading city to serve Mumbai gold market.

That said I agree with your point that social freedoms are over rated as long as the govt. is not a totalitarian police state or a kleptocracy.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Mar 2014 11:25

^^^What do you mean by "social freedom"? If you mean "political freedom" (as articulated through democratic expression), then you may be right in certain cases.

You will note that as examples you have pointed out what are essentially city states. Dubai is bolstered by Abu Dhabi's wealth, essentially it is guaranteed by that against failure. And social freedom (minus the democratic expression) in Hong Kong and Singapore, will give India a run for its money, any day.

If we need anything, it is simply the strengthening and ring-fencing of existing political, religious, social and economic freedoms with a properly functioning legal system - and then modifying them organically as necessary, and as we go along. Unlike Dubai, Hong Kong or Singapore, we have a civilisational responsibility as well.

India is not pretty now, but that's because although it may not seem like it, we are renewing ourselves - this is a period of churn, of building the fibres of substance, in a way that is tried and tested by reason and the relevancies of time and circumstance, and tested again, through debate, confrontation, even violence sometimes.

The contours of what will come are already becoming evident, however. It may not have the sharp edged, laser cut, search for ever more precise perfection that is the futile goal of the prevailing worldview - but it will have some of it. What we become will be more durable though, as a system. But you and I won't live to see its full manifestation... We can do something towards it, even it is only writing letters to editors, or speaking in support of a civilisational ethos more in tune with the natural and rational.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 07 Mar 2014 16:21

shiv wrote:Our sepoys have not figured that out yet. And it is Indian sepoys who need to learn.

Indian sepoys are sepoys because they have been carefully cultivated by the west. Case to the point is a journalist called Dhume who writes for WSJ. He was educated at the Woodrow Wilson School.

From Wiki,
The school claims educates a wide range of students from the U.S. and around the world who seek to apply their knowledge and skills to the solution of vital public problems in both the domestic and international realms. It boasts a faculty of scholars and practitioners in disciplines that include politics, international affairs, economics, sociology, psychology, physics, molecular biology, and geosciences, who, individually and as members of a variety of world-class research centers and programs, react to and influence the international and domestic environment through policy research, which in turn adds depth and vitality to the teaching program.

All post grad students get free tuition. Obviously, no one gets in without going through theory, CV and interview phase as it's with most US universities.
You have to wonder why free tuition? They would want certain returns on their investment. The sepoys thus have an agenda which is peddled as non partisan opinion after all WWS claims Woodrow Wilson School faculty conduct innovative research; provide policy makers, nonprofit organizations and research centers with expert, nonpartisan policy analysis; and provide Woodrow Wilson undergraduate and graduate students with the analytical tools and in-depth knowledge needed to tackle important policy issues. - See more at: http://wws.princeton.edu/about-wws/our- ... jHP24.dpuf

The alumni network allows access to the higher power centres. It's a mutual back scratching network. Sepoys have been co opted and the way to perhaps eliminate the sepoy network is to set up a parallel network with state support. China has censored their internet which is perhaps a step too far?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2014 17:02

panduranghari wrote: The alumni network allows access to the higher power centres. It's a mutual back scratching network. Sepoys have been co opted and the way to perhaps eliminate the sepoy network is to set up a parallel network with state support. China has censored their internet which is perhaps a step too far?

Good catch there pandurangahari. Once again, going back to the comments about Doniger in NYT I saw one comment that accused Doniger of not knowing Sanskrit. A reply to that was that Donger learned Sanskrit at "Harvard, no less.".

The "no less" is an indicator of the high pedestal that certain names are placed they are beyond the pale and unreachable and if one claims association with those names you cannot be touched.

It is another matter that the Sanskrit degree at Harvard is likely to be quite faulty because Sanskrit is a language that is entwined with Indian culture and one has to be steeped in the culture to catch the nuances. Not surprising that she allegedly "translated" the Vedas with no inkling of the spiritual content of the Vedas. Even the man Griffiths whose "translation" the Rig Veda is widely available got a degree in Oxford - another one of those names.

What the west has done is to build up certain names that no one can argue with - and sepoys quickly learn about that caste system The paradigm is "I am from "Hallowed place X". Once anything appears out of Hallowed place X - everything is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. The only remote possibility of anyone admitting any error coming out of Hallowed place X is when the place itself revises its view or the new information passes the scrutiny of the high priests of Hallowed place X or its sepoys. We had a sepoy protecting Witzel in the early phases of discussion in the "Out of India" thread whose argument about Harvard was similar. The attitude towards someone who questions Harvard is one of snooty, sneering supercilious contempt - a small droplet of spittle to be wiped away and not given any attention.

Johns Hopkins Med school is one such institution and I had posted (in the US Positive news thread) a case plagiarism of work by a desi that was covered up and all enquiries were stonewalled.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 07 Mar 2014 17:09

matrimc wrote:There are two problems with comparing India to city states. One is the scale in terms of people and area and the other is they are mainly trading posts and I suspect are used for transfer pricing. Dubayya itself was setup as a trading city to serve Mumbai gold market.

That said I agree with your point that social freedoms are over rated as long as the govt. is not a totalitarian police state or a kleptocracy.

No need to compare India to city states. India is its own example. When India was ruled by Hindu monarchs, it was the richest country in the world for 2,000 years and was called the Golden bird. Even by 1800, it was accounting for 25% of world GDP.

Political freedom doesn't mean much to people (if there is no oppression in day to day lives). Social freedoms and economic freedoms are sufficient to make them happy and prosperous. However, in India, the rhetoric is opposite -- poor, starving, half-naked people standing proud because they get to vote for corrupt politicians. This doesn't fool anyone and Indians don't get any respect.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 07 Mar 2014 17:11

JE Menon wrote:^^^What do you mean by "social freedom"? If you mean "political freedom" (as articulated through democratic expression), then you may be right in certain cases.

Yes, I meant political freedoms. Social freedoms and economic freedoms are sufficient to deliver happiness and prosperity to people.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 07 Mar 2014 18:35

shiv wrote: What the west has done is to build up certain names that no one can argue with - and sepoys quickly learn about that caste system The paradigm is "I am from "Hallowed place X". Once anything appears out of Hallowed place X - everything is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. The only remote possibility of anyone admitting any error coming out of Hallowed place X is when the place itself revises its view or the new information passes the scrutiny of the high priests of Hallowed place X or its sepoys. We had a sepoy protecting Witzel in the early phases of discussion in the "Out of India" thread whose argument about Harvard was similar. The attitude towards someone who questions Harvard is one of snooty, sneering supercilious contempt - a small droplet of spittle to be wiped away and not given any attention.

Johns Hopkins Med school is one such institution and I had posted (in the US Positive news thread) a case plagiarism of work by a desi that was covered up and all enquiries were stonewalled.

Allow me to touch upon a related topic borne of personal experience and the conclusions I reached after I pondered over it.

About a couple of years ago, I had a bout of severe gum infection. I went the best dentist available in our area. The dentist immediately prescribed a couple of session of scaling to remove deposits so that gums are free of germ buildup and gets to heal. So, far so good (it sounds reasonable).
But after the scaling sessions were over, there was no reduction of pain. In fact it seemed to have gotten worse. The gent then advised that he needs to look for cavities and if found he'd recommend extraction or root canal.
I was about to fly out of India and requested for some temporary measures. Also informed my counterparts abroad that I'll need to delay my travel by a week due to medical reasons. So at that point I was on a dose of 3 combiflam tablets a day. I was still not able to understand the options prescribed. It simply looked like gums were inflamed due to infection (which was not going away), what was extraction or root canal for (in X ray they looked OK BTW)? No pian in tooths BTW. I was also worried by constant abuse of analgesic and anti-inflammatory prescription, running into 4th week then.
One evening my parents were at my place. Looking at my problem they suggested a home remedy which very much prevalent in Bengali households. A paste like mix of mustard oil and common salt to be applied to the gums for few minutes and if pain permits massage the gums with it. Follow it with a brief rinse with the oil (with some salt in it) and finally rinse with water. For pain place a clove.
I recall I had such home treatment administered when very young, but was still in a doubt whether it will help in short span of time.
To cut the story short I was off pain killers after 72 hours.
Went ahead with my trip. My counterpart had the good sense to keep the company doctor there informed. So, I was asked about my condition on arrival. After I told him what helped, he gave me look of distrust and expressed his doubts whether it was the home remedy that worked. The exact sentence "I have heard of such folk remedies, but don't think that helped you because we don't understand how it is supposed to work". What I felt was a mix of surprise and insult.
Anyway after I came and reported to our local dentist, there was even more derision in store. Exact sentence from Bengali "What mahashaya do believe in all these nonsense? See all these books...if such remedy were effective wouldn't it have been published somewhere?".

So, I thought over the incident. I'm no doctor, but I had biology as a subject till class 12th (CBSE board) alongside other science subjects, so I do understand how common germs react to many natural substances. Also as a youngster a constant experience was when I spent a good time in sea water the salt seemed to pull out pus and blood from boils and infected wounds. Not sure how oil worked.

But why were these gents so dismissive of a remedy based on ancient knowledge? Is it because they felt insecure with the realization that their knowledge is not that all it needs to be known and there could be parallel frameworks that could challenge their assumed leadership position in areas of science and tech? Why such inflexibility if there is a deviation from Western established scientific framework?

Has the science in West has become the new religion for the Western intelligentia? Is it because the church is no longer defensible, they have taken refuge under a new umbrella? I don't see any other explanation for contempt and derision for traditional knowledge base of others.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2014 19:56

SRoy wrote: Has the science in West has become the new religion for the Western intelligentia? Is it because the church is no longer defensible, they have taken refuge under a new umbrella? I don't see any other explanation for contempt and derision for traditional knowledge base of others.

Great story Roy. I have a few like that including one in my own family. Maybe some other time. I had a roaring argument with my colleagues on an alumni website. The first thing that is done in medical college is to instill contempt for Indian and other traditional forms of medicine.

But the fact is that allopathy is too expensive to cover the whole population in any country and allopathy is still not good enough in a whole range of problems which still require attention from Indian traditional and other alternative medical methods.

I tend to get into arguments with my colleagues, but the biggest achievements of allopathy that surpass any other fields are

1. In vaccination and preventive healthcare (leading to a global population explosion)
2. Control of infections via antibiotics
3. Cure of "mechanical problems" by surgery

But there are hundreds of diseases that require constant attention that are not adequately addressed by allopathy and traditional methods must be allowed to play a role. Now tell that to the Macaulayized polity and medical fraternity.

I think your comment about science being the new god was true in the west till the 1970s. Now science has lost that aura but society is expecting more from science than it can deliver.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 07 Mar 2014 20:10

^^^ The realization is dawning. Just attended the Future of Healthcare conference in Delhi last week, organized by Apollo Hospitals. Most people I heard or spoke to, including Dr. Devi Shetty (Narayana Health), Dr. Naresh Trehan (Medicity), Shivinder Singh (Fortis Healthcare) and Dr. Prathap Reddy (Apollo) were of the view that integration of traditional systems of medicine with allopathy was the way to go in future. Many hospitals in Delhi now offer integrative medicine. For example see this:

http://www.medanta.org/DoctorProfile.aspx?Key=234

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 07 Mar 2014 20:12

^^Five examples
1. Curcumin crosses blood brain barrier and removes plaque/stops plaque... 2006
2. Heart disease can not be reversed; until Dean Ornish said otherwise
3. Yoga is helpful in preventing a variety of ailments
4. Predominantly Veg diet is co-related with good health
5. Indian Classical music was found to heal bypass patients faster (Stanford Study)

Many of us knew each of these to be true for a long time. But the Indian media/sepoys made it sound otherwise. Only after the Goras gave a certificate these were accepted as truth by the sepoys and disseminated to the Indian public. In fact when I was growing up the system/media told me Indians can not do it and Indians used to routinely insult anything Indian.
I remember a trip to India I made from US in late 80's and showed a leather wallet to my friend (highly educated). The guy was in high praise for the craftsmanship of the US made leather, until I showed him a "made in India" label on the wallet.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 07 Mar 2014 20:16

Shiv
With due respects..Vaccination and Surgery are not "allopathy"?. They are part of traditional Indian systems? From what I know Ed Jenner lived in India and studied the vaccination procedure done using Cow's 1st drops of milk in the the morning that has cow pox virus.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Mar 2014 20:20

shiv - it is like Bradman. It is accepted as fact that he is no.1, not just by White nations, but also by other cricketing nations. So much so that, whenever somebody (even Indians, West Indian etc) says "Tendulkar is a great player, blah blah blah, he is one of the greatest, after Bradman of course". nobody ever bothers to say "well why the heck is Bradman always no.1". The power of being the first mover in setting these narratives is amazing.

So why is wendy's sanskrit credentials not questionable -> because she studied in harvard. an appeal to authority logical fallacy there and too many of us have already accepted white/western/christian etc as the authority.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Mar 2014 20:33

Proper response there is the Clint Eastwood quote:

Then u should ask for ur money back.

Esp. since Hahvahd Sanskrit professor Witzel Himself says she is clueless.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2014 20:37

Anantha wrote:Shiv
With due respects..Vaccination and Surgery are not "allopathy"?. They are part of traditional Indian systems? From what I know Ed Jenner lived in India and studied the vaccination procedure done using Cow's 1st drops of milk in the the morning that has cow pox virus.

Well Anantha - I am not getting into any arguments over this. I have had too may discussions about some of these things and don't want to rehash especially where the discussion might get very technical and theoretical.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 07 Mar 2014 21:19

'Harvard' or any such phoren institutes producing Sanskruth 'scholars' is the big joke and that 'scholarship' being used to peddle absurd theories is the tragedy. These people parading themselves as experts on Hindhuism and then media allowing them to do that without asking basic questions just shows what a farce this has become.

The real Sanskruth experts and scholars are steeped in Hindhuism and adhere to its traditions. They study this subject alone for years and years in the traditional austerity. Such real traditional scholars are ignored by the media, lit fests, publications, universities and other such convenient cabal. Instead, the traditional Hindhu scholars and sanyasis get ridiculed and targeted by the media. At the same time, fake experts who peddle anti-Hindhu stuff get a platform.

----
Shiv saar,
plagiarism is a big issue. It would be fantastic if you can dig something out on it. Also, there is an issue of Bhaarathiya PHD students studying in Amirkhan whose works get patented by the amirkhan don't get any benefits. Is this not abuse of their work? These students don't get paid 'minimum wage' either.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Mar 2014 23:19

Reading all those stats of women's abuse (1 in 3) in US and Europe and the fact they are Westernized and Modernized, no wonder Turdpal got wrong ideas about groping Indian women dressed in Western clothes. Thats a good point tio understand Indian media mind set.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 07 Mar 2014 23:32

JohneeG wrote:'Harvard' or any such phoren institutes producing Sanskruth 'scholars' is the big joke and that 'scholarship' being used to peddle absurd theories is the tragedy.

^^Saar, don't you get it. The only thing noteworthy in Sanskruth is the one that has been translated into English. That is where the Harvard comes in, with Language sophistry, and ability to communicate in a Western framework.

Also, Having grown up in the west, the mind's of the scholars are already "colonized" by Abrahamic constructs and ideas. It takes an enormous effort to unlearn these ideas that they acquired at a very young age, believed and practiced for the better part of their childhood and early adult life, and accepted it as absolute truth by everyone around them including their families and friends.

Even the well meaning scholars (if they exist, other than the "Kundi"s and the "Pretzel"s of the world) are at a huge disadvantage to learn and understand Hinduism, due to this baggage they carry. They look at Hinduism through the clouded prism in their mind, and are always suspicious and condescending about it. It is a primitive pagan religion after all. When they begin to realize the elegance of Hinduism in describing the sublime and the mundane, the understanding of time and space, the complete harmony with modern science, they are perplexed and puts them directly in conflict with everything they believed to be true, and what their friends and family believes. So Jesus doesn't actually exist, micromanaging and judging our every behavior? WTF? These uneducated, ragtag, SDRE Injuns could not have come out with these exalted ideas, concepts and civilizations 1000s of years ago. There has to be something wrong. First of all, it must be more recent. It must have come from the west in the first place, Also, there has to be some fundamental flaw in Hinduism. The entire belief system of the west can't all be wrong.. They look and look and look and clutch at straws to seek out flaws in Hinduism. When they manage to find real or imagined faults, their sanity and that of the west gets restored in their small minds. They start using their Harvard badge and their sophistry in language, to join the rest of the ill informed, and laugh at Hinduism.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 08 Mar 2014 03:24

This is about British media, but I think is useful nonetheless.
http://www.digitalwomenuk.co.uk/the-bli ... nny-singh/

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 08 Mar 2014 04:03

A_Gupta wrote:This is about British media, but I think is useful nonetheless.
http://www.digitalwomenuk.co.uk/the-bli ... nny-singh/

This is good. She says many of the same things from a female/misogyny point of view, but can be applied in other contexts:

For instance, from her blog:

Casual Bigotry and Daily Living

Yet when faced with persistent casual ~~sexism~~Hinduphobia in social situations, I have no recourse. At a recent literary event, I sat feeling utterly repulsed not only by the speaker's casual ~~misogyny~~ Hinduphobia but also by the laughter around me that enabled the speaker's continued and cherished belief that he were merely exercising his 'wit.' At the end, the only act of resistance available for me was my decision to not buy his book (even though that is usual form in this particular forum) and thus register a silent, personal and most likely unnoticed dissent. Had I called him out on his ~~sexism~~hinduphobia, I know exactly how the conversation would have unfolded: it would start with a vehement denial of the prejudice, followed by rallying of support from surrounding similar minded people, and ended with accusations hurled at me for ~~lacking humour~~ being a chauvinist or worst yet, that ultimate social poison, ~~'being difficult'~~ Hindutva fascist (sometimes the order of these changes slightly or all three are simultaneously taken up).

On bad days, I find myself wondering if I am a modern version of the 'house slave' (or the ayah, the collaborating Maharajah, the Macauley's elite) who help sustain the edifices of prejudice by participating in them for the lure of the dregs from the master's table.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 08 Mar 2014 04:16

A Very Illiberal Phenomenon Amongst European Liberals

This one resonates as well:

Strangely enough, if I were from a truly elite background, born to rich and powerful parents, married to other rich and powerful people, but could spout leftist incoherence about India and the world, and never once challenged the dominant paradigms of the hegemonic narratives, I would be welcomed as a darling of this very European 'liberal' circle.

You see, my crime - at least in the eyes of western 'liberals' - is the same as that of many millions of Indians (and indeed others of the developing world) who are increasingly climbing past the historical economic and political barriers to claim an equal spot at the table: we are the wrong kind of 'elite.' Self-made, self-taught, fighters to the core, I and many more like me are elite because we have made our way from scratch. And because we are self-made, we are unfettered by the Fanonian psychological baggage that plagues the old established elites from the former colonies. Because we are self-made, we are not beholden to anyone else for our intellectual, economic or political successes. And we are frightening because we cannot be controlled or indeed patronised.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 08 Mar 2014 04:45

Lest you forget to also include this comment-

These wonderfully educated (read:stuffy ideologues of a new variety), culturally savvy (read: second hand experts how it all really is in those sad 3rd world countries striving to be like "us"), when really pushed outside their cozy comfort zone react with effortless hostility while simultaneously pigeonholing you for standing your ground, and making valid points. You know you've hit the nerve of truth when dialogue becomes diatribe. As you said f*ck them! Time to find new dinner mates to dine with with a wider scope of friends... say, more music/art/ working class roots and less academia

.

If it look like a duck, quacks like a duck......

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 08 Mar 2014 05:01

Huh! I had a big twitter war with this woman on her calling out Sunil Tripathi and then not deleting her tweets about him being the Boston Bomber. Strange indeed.

Please read this to get more details (and yes, this is the same Sunny Singh):
http://quicktake.wordpress.com/2013/04/ ... e-go-down/

Edit:
Here is that tweet: https://twitter.com/sunnysingh_nw3/stat ... 7312072705

The supposed moral high-ground taken by her on being a colored person in a white world all falls apart in that tweet, when she does the exact same thing and brings in someone's religion and caste on a mere suspicion. She is on the right track, but she has a long way to go before she becomes intelligent.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Mar 2014 05:02

Sunny Singh's post on liberals is excellent. One does not need to interact in person to encounter it. Just go to any online forum where the bulk of the population is western, and post in the manner you would here - uncompromisingly pro-Indian. The hostility will be easily apparent, even if the topic isn't India. The readymade tactic is to pigeonhole you as an uncaring high-caste elite.

There was an interesting western news article during the Khobragade incident where the comments went on about Devyani's implied crimes as a high caste elite. Some Indians pointed out that she's in fact a Dalit, and Bharara is the one who's high caste. That should have been sufficient pie on the face of the original commenters, except that they retorted that the Indian commenters are high caste elite folks who have no sympathy for the maid. Oh, the comedy.

It's important to repeatedly take on these types, and when they respond with hostility, coldly reply by holding up a verbal mirror demonstrating how they behave like emotional children when cornered. They'll get even more ferocious then, but by then you've made your point. This isn't a battle won or lost right there - it's a constant stonewalling that needs to keep happening on various blogs, forums and news comments.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 08 Mar 2014 05:38

LokeshC wrote: The supposed moral high-ground taken by her on being a colored person in a white world all falls apart in that tweet, when she does the exact same thing and brings in someone's religion and caste on a mere suspicion. She is on the right track, but she has a long way to go before she becomes intelligent.

Hmm, if she did that it is quite despicable and makes a mockery of what she's written. However, that quote of her wondering if she is a house slave is perhaps the cognitive dissonance kicking in; interestingly that post is in Sep. 2013. Maybe her own "micro-aggression" in April 2013 caused a slow change of course. One can always hope.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 08 Mar 2014 05:48

I assumed that she was an incorrigible moron after she banned me on twitter (I dont have the exchanges with me). I still stand by that assumption, albeit a bit surprised about her newer writings.

The thing about 'liberals' is that liberalism in the west was born as a fight against Dogma of the cultish church. In fighting a cult, the liberals had to be cult like in their beliefs and standing.

Indian liberals attempt to apply the same liberal zeal to Indian issue, they end up behaving like cults in trying to reform (one hopes) the Indian society and end up losing the plot. Cults have names/label for everything a non-member does, in the liberal cult: A Brahmin --> Nazi opressor (even though there was no mass murder in the History of India comitted by a Brahmin), Hindu Defender, India Defender --> Upper caste conservative Hindu. Once they subconsciously apply this label to anyone arguing on the other side, they shut down as programmed. They are programmed not to think and not to reason from that point on. Indian liberals are almost robotic in following this algorithm.

She is one such liberal-cult-robot who probably has little clues on why she behaves the way she behaves.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 08 Mar 2014 05:52

BTW, for those of you experienced with twitter, how do you get noticed here? I am finding that there appears to be lots of subtle censorship. I have noticed that in some cases when you go "expand conversation" for some person, tweets that were there previously are gone and the conversation has been limited to a few interactions. Does the originator the tweet have control over what interactions are visible? Do tweets from accounts that are relatively new and have no followers get less importance? I notice that my tweets don't show up in search results after a while too. Anyway, if it is all about having 100s of followers, is there a shortcut to it? Like is there a BRF group there who would all follow you immediately (and individuals could unfollow if you start posting nonsense anyway)?

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 08 Mar 2014 05:57

LokeshC wrote:
Indian liberals attempt to apply the same liberal zeal to Indian issue, they end up behaving like cults in trying to reform (one hopes) the Indian society and end up losing the plot. Cults have names/label for everything a non-member does, in the liberal cult: A Brahmin --> Nazi opressor (even though there was no mass murder in the History of India comitted by a Brahmin), Hindu Defender, India Defender --> Upper caste conservative Hindu. Once they subconsciously apply this label to anyone arguing on the other side, they shut down as programmed. They are programmed not to think and not to reason from that point on. Indian liberals are almost robotic in following this algorithm.

She is one such liberal-cult-robot who probably has little clues on why she behaves the way she behaves.

Yeah, for the US example the mapping is quite clear:

US -> India
---------------------------------
White -> Upper caste Hindu
Black -> Muslim
Hispanic -> Dalit
Woman -> Woman
Jews, Asians -> Sikh, Christian, Parsee

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2014 07:46

LokeshC wrote:
Indian liberals attempt to apply the same liberal zeal to Indian issue, they end up behaving like cults in trying to reform (one hopes) the Indian society and end up losing the plot. Cults have names/label for everything a non-member does, in the liberal cult: A Brahmin --> Nazi opressor (even though there was no mass murder in the History of India comitted by a Brahmin), Hindu Defender, India Defender --> Upper caste conservative Hindu. Once they subconsciously apply this label to anyone arguing on the other side, they shut down as programmed. They are programmed not to think and not to reason from that point on. Indian liberals are almost robotic in following this algorithm.

She is one such liberal-cult-robot who probably has little clues on why she behaves the way she behaves.

Indian liberals are predominantly fake liberals. They can be re educated after which they go into a sullen silence. My own jihad against them started nearly a decade ago. They think they are "liberal" simply because they get patted on the back by white westerners for their views and don't figure out that many white liberals come from a background of great pride in their civilization and a mindset that characterizes browns and blacks and needing emancipation by spreading their liberal thoughts.

I commented yesterday that medical colleges in India instill contempt for traditional medicine from the outset. But I now realize that this is merely a subset of Indian education that starts off by instilling contempt for all ancient Indian knowledge and tradition. If you begin to talk Vedas and Upanishads you are instantly thrown out as backward and nowadays you are categorized as a right wing Hindu extremist.

The point is Indians have been asked to disregard their past in favor of science. The west took up science as the new religion. God was no longer needed for survival in situations like extreme cold, of floods or illness. Man was handling a lot of things that god was needed for previously.Science replaced prayer. After that it became OK to be liberal and bring down everything that religion stood for in the west. Divorces became easy breaking up core families, homosexuality was placed on a pedestal like church celibacy and science managed to disconnect sex from procreation so that pure sex could be utilized for unadulterated sensual pleasure by itself without procreation

But in India "religion" does not have the same Christian rules that the west discarded. It was the British and other colonizers of India who failed to understand Indian spirituality and simply did equal equal between "religions". And that equalequal has been indoctrinated into fake liberal Indian minds. Gone is the tradition of debate which existed within the Indian phllosophical framework. For the liberal, Hinduism in India==Christainity in Europe, Christ==Krishna, Jehovah==Ishwara, trinity ==Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma, Bible==Gita==mandatory rules. We are all equaleual and therefore to become like west we have to act like western liberals. This Indian fake liberalism is the monkey-see-monkey-do liberalism of semi-literate Indians who have discarded their past and do not have a European/American past.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2014 07:56

MurthyB wrote:
Yeah, for the US example the mapping is quite clear:

US -> India
---------------------------------
White -> Upper caste Hindu
Black -> Muslim
Hispanic -> Dalit
Woman -> Woman
Jews, Asians -> Sikh, Christian, Parsee

This needs to be carved in stone.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 08 Mar 2014 08:32

One can also do an understanding the US from an Indian POV. In that scheme of things the US is an OBC nation, whose population is made up from shudras from Europe who left due to poverty. Europe is primarily an upper caste nation.