General Elections 2014- Transition of power & World Reaction

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 May 2014 03:55

Suraj wrote:Voter turnout on course to break historical record
2009 Elections
Total electorate: 720 million
Total votes: 410 million
2014 Elections
Total electorate: 815 million
Total votes: 597 million (upto May 7th penultimate phase)

Turnout: 66.2% (upto May 7th)
Previous record: 64.6% (1984 general elections)

Wow!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 May 2014 06:45

TSJones wrote:I cry for India..such dangerous enemies from afar!

Smoke gets in yer eyes eh?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 09 May 2014 06:48

Smog sire smog. Beltway Bandit smoke mixed with Fog from the Bottom.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 May 2014 08:14

SanjayC wrote: One interesting thing I am seeing -- the progressive westernization and self-hatred of descendants of prominent leaders of Independence struggle and even prominent Indians of those times. Gandhi --> Rajmohan Gandhi; Radhakrishnan --> Priyamvada Gopal; Nehru --> Rahul Gandhi; Vikram Sarabhai --> Mallika Sarabhai; General Thapar --> Karan Thapar; M. C. Setalvad --> Teesta Setlavad ... something has gone wrong in the upbringing of these people. They hate India, they hate hinduism, they become half-christians, they become coolies and sepoys and settle in Gora lands ... Maybe, the independence leaders were too subservient to the British and secretly admired their civilisation, and the genes get passed on to the descendants

I have done some preliminary research on this.
Nirmal Chandra Chatterjee, was a prominent lawyer, intellectual, and Hindu revivalist and nationalist --> Somnath Chatterjee (Bengali: সোমনাথ চট্টোপাধ্যায়;
I found it in Somnath Chatterjee a marxist who supported Indian nuclear deal with US. His father was a member of Hindu Mahasabha
They have targetted the families of famous leaders of India from the Independence times to mould them to become marxist or basically anti-Indian tradition. It may have been this way since the period 1940-1990 was the peak of the global leftism and socialism.
Somnath Chatterjee is a good example

There is even a book which talks about various Indian leaders and how the Indian gather around these leaders and get influenced by these leaders. The Indian social setup and leadership formation has been studied by the British sociology studies.
Nehru family is one such target.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 May 2014 08:24

On the general topic of enemies from afar I dropped my TV remote yesterday and the channel changed itself to the BBC which I rarely watch. They were interviewing a Russian dissident living the the United Queendom who was talking about how the Russian economy is about to collapse. It is fascinating the way all these little European states give shelter and succour to all sorts of people who disagree with many of their own countrymen in farway lands, using them as a sort of "seed population" for dissidents, rebels and "freedom fighters". Britain ha done that for "Kashiris" fightingIndia and Pakistanis fighting India. The US and Canada too have picked up the slack after WW2.

The problem I see among Indians in India is a deep feeling of admiration for the west that makes many of us think that what someone in the west (or an Indian academic in the west) says must be right. Unlike Russia for example - a country with the balls to provide asylum to dissidents from the west.

It is necessary simply for the sake of having an alternate viewpoint to nurture thought processes that expose all that is negative about various other nations - to be kept dormant if necessary and publicized when needed. The long list of brofsars who got undie-twisted at the thought of Modi are exactly one such group of Indian being nurtured and nourished in the west. They are a good model to follow. It could be done in India too if we did not have such a low opinion of ourselves.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 May 2014 08:34

SanjayC wrote:
One interesting thing I am seeing -- the progressive westernization and self-hatred of descendants of prominent leaders of Independence struggle and even prominent Indians of those times. Gandhi --> Rajmohan Gandhi; Radhakrishnan --> Priyamvada Gopal; Nehru --> Rahul Gandhi; Vikram Sarabhai --> Mallika Sarabhai; General Thapar --> Karan Thapar; M. C. Setalvad --> Teesta Setlavad ... something has gone wrong in the upbringing of these people. They hate India, they hate hinduism, they become half-christians, they become coolies and sepoys and settle in Gora lands ... Maybe, the independence leaders were too subservient to the British and secretly admired their civilisation, and the genes get passed on to the descendants

Interesting phenomenon. My own parents belonged to the generation between Nehru and Indra Gandhi. There was a deep admiration for the west which sat comfortably with Indianness.

But I think post independence two distinct branches of Indians has developed. One branch has dug deeper into being Indian and sees negativity in the western method, Another have developed self hate and have swallowed the west in its entirety. Complicating this is the fact that the west is not all bad - and its strides in science and tech are as close to the Indian search for truth as anything can get. It is only the application of that science that we tend to disagree with.

All in all India is going to head in a direction different from the western model and will pose a threat to the "western model" such as exists even as we accept and develop the same science and methodology.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 May 2014 09:22

Interesting.My parents were almost the only ones in the large families on both sides who did not depart for the West when they had many opportunities and offers to do so.My father was very patriotic despite travels and part of his education abroad,and saw us rooted to the country we love.We've seen enough of the west to know its strengths and weaknesses,but the overriding desire is to improve our motherland whatever the sacrifice.Since Independence our political class has betrayed the sacrifices made during the Freedom Struggle.It would be an act of defeatism and surrender to flee for the sake of "40 pieces of silver",but our children today have the globe as their future,and they have global ambitions.One hopes that whatever their future,they never forget the land of their birth,to whom their utmost loyalty must lie

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 May 2014 09:52

This lack of self pride comes from Nehru dynasty and the economic policies followed by them. Basically, if you have a mid set that the people who you lead have no future. Then you do every thing possible to deny them any future save one that you think will be. This was most evident when RG said that once man cannot save the country. They really believed that the issues faced were insurmountable. With that belief, they really made the problems insurmountable.

However, if you have a mind set, that things will improve, then you will do every thing possible to improve the future. In so doing, you will change the future for the better. It is with this mindset I feel Modi ruled Gujarat. Tomorrow, when the transition happens.His margin of victory and the votes polled in favor of the BJP / NDA will tell us how successfully he will be able to transplant his ideas across the nation.

Which ever way things move, we are in an interesting period of our history.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 May 2014 06:41

ramana wrote:BRF is running a Good Judgment Poll (GJP) on the 2014 elections. It reflects the collective judgment of the participants who are free to do their research and make a forecast each Thursday close of business. Only summaries are posted without details as the method makes sense only for the average of all positions. The plan is to post the summaries every week till the final results to see how close or far off the forecasts are. Will update only this post to keep the perspective and focus. The comments in italics are of the complier who has PhD in social sciences.
-----------------------

Week 1 NDA
ESTIMATE has mean=259, median=250, and SD=33. CONFIDENCE has mean=60, median=52, and SD=30. Consistent with literature, extreme estimates tend to be more confident as well. The correlation between deviation of ESTIMATE from the mean (of 259) and the CONFIDENCE score is 0.64. If we weigh each ESTIMATE by the CONFIDENCE, then the weighted estimate is 267.
Week 2 NDA

ESTIMATE has mean=260, median=258, and SD=27. CONFIDENCE has mean=54, median=55, and SD=23. Consistent with literature, extreme estimates tend to be more confident as well. The correlation between deviation of ESTIMATE from the mean (of 260) and the CONFIDENCE score is 0.50. If we weigh each ESTIMATE by the CONFIDENCE, then the weighted estimate is 265.
Although the set of judges isn't the same, the median NDA estimate has increased to 258 (week 2) from 250 (week 1) even as the mean remains stable. The variation of estimates has declined (SD declined to 27 in week 2 from 33 in week 1), indicating more consensus across judges about the median estimate. The median confidence has gone up slightly but not by much (52 to 55).

Week 3 NDA

ESTIMATE has mean=266, median=265, and SD=27. CONFIDENCE has mean=57, median=56, and SD=23. Consistent with literature, extreme estimates tend to be more confident as well. The correlation between deviation of ESTIMATE from the mean (of 266) and the CONFIDENCE score is 0.52. If we weigh each ESTIMATE by the CONFIDENCE, then the weighted estimate is 272.
Although the set of judges isn't the same, the median NDA estimate has increased to 265 (week 3) from 258 (week 2) as has the mean estimate at 266 (week 3) from 260. So the distribution has shifted up, favoring NDA, and has also become more symmetric as the mean and median are close to each other. The variation of estimates remains the same as week 2. The median confidence has gone up slightly but not by much (55 to 56). [/
-------------------------------

Week 1 UPA

ESTIMATE has mean=108, median=105, and SD=20. CONFIDENCE has mean=63, median=68, and SD=28. The correlation between deviation of ESTIMATE from the mean (of 108) and the CONFIDENCE score is modest at 0.26. If we weigh each ESTIMATE by the CONFIDENCE, then the weighted estimate is 104.

Week 2 UPA

ESTIMATE has mean=104, median=99, and SD=16. CONFIDENCE has mean=68, median=75, and SD=23. The correlation between deviation of ESTIMATE from the mean (of 104) and the CONFIDENCE score is negative at -0.37. If we weigh each ESTIMATE by the CONFIDENCE, then the weighted estimate is 99.

Table 1

Compared to Week 1, UPA median has gone down to 99 from 105 and the consensus across judges has increased (SD declined to 16 from 20). The median confidence at 75 is also higher than that for week 1 where it was 68. Jingos seem a lot more confident about UPA non-performance than NDA over-performance.

Week 3 UPA

ESTIMATE has mean=113, median=109, and SD=17. CONFIDENCE has mean=63, median=66, and SD=21. The correlation between deviation of ESTIMATE from the mean (of 113) and the CONFIDENCE score is negative at -0.23. If we weigh each ESTIMATE by the CONFIDENCE, then the weighted estimate is 109.

Table 1

Compared to Week 2, UPA median has gone up to 109 from 99 and the consensus across judges has remained the same (SD is 17 vs. 16 in week 2). The median confidence at 66 is lower than 75 for week 2, but is higher than NDA estimates. Jingos seem more confident about UPA non-performance than NDA over-performance. Participation rate for UPA is dropping, from 18 folks in week 2 to 12 folks in week 3.
-------------------------
Week 5 NDA

Good Participation with 30 folks. The median reduces to 259 but the mean is now 266. If we weigh each estimate by the confidence, then the weighted mean estimate is exactly 272! Median confidence is high at 72, so there has been the expected tendency to narrow the range. If we believe in the wisdom of the crowd, then the most likely range is 260 to 280 which seems to be consistent with one stray twitter report regarding an exit poll leak.

Week 5 UPA

14 participants this week. Median remains stuck at 105. The mean is 112 and the weighted mean estimate is 110. Estimates have narrowed as the median confidence is at 76.
------------------------

Thanks,
ramana

Not a participant to preclude bias.
Just a note taker like Chitragupta or Madame Defarge!

-------------

On the penultimate day before polling closes on May12th.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 May 2014 07:31

Some ppl I know are terribly worried at what the "surge" in voter % means. Incl. whether it is correlated to EVM fraud. A bit too convenient, etc, esp with machines lying out there for weeks. OK, OK, I am exiting now...

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 May 2014 07:32

Maybe ppl are coming out in droves just so they can play with the cool EVMs. Do they sell the space on the sides of the machines to advertisers, say to show pics of near-nude actresses? Missing a GREAT opportunity to balance the budget if they don't use that!

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 11 May 2014 07:37

You are getting old, Philip

Its 30 pieces of silver

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 11 May 2014 07:51

symontk wrote:You are getting old, Philip

Its 30 pieces of silver

Maybe Philip was accounting for inflation.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 May 2014 07:53

symontk wrote:You are getting old, Philip

Its 30 pieces of silver

Increase due to inflation onlee

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 May 2014 08:06

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ern-policy

This is in part our fault. Our interaction with countries like India is complex. But our policymakers and official representatives are guilty of extraordinarily narrow vision which has helped open up space for people like Modi across much of a continent. This aids the sense among huge numbers of people that globalisation is a conversation from which, metaphorically and practically, they are excluded. That conversation takes place in English and it is worth noting that Modi will be the first leader of such prominence and power in India who, like the vast majority of his compatriots, is uncomfortable in what has become the world's language.

On the political track, our diplomats and politicians inevitably favour those who resemble them most closely. That usually means anglophone moderates or, as they are often termed locally, "liberals". There is also an inherent and inevitable journalistic bias towards those who share reporters', viewers' and readers' language and cultural references, however superficial. Due to the inequality of the growth seen since market-orientated reforms were introduced across much of Asia in the last four decades, the global economy, still dominated by the west, appears to many in small-town India, not as an opportunity for all but a means for a select few to become extremely rich. Out in provincial cities, western culture is increasingly represented more by luxury cars, internet ***** and shops selling international brands in the more exclusive malls than Shakespeare and liberal democracy.

This ignorance is certainly a fault of both sides. But it is the failure of western policymakers and analysts to grasp the importance of the emergence of the frustrated lower middle-class masses across much of a continent that is the more reprehensible. We are the ones who still, for good or ill, command most of the high ground of international affairs. But it is only through understanding what is happening at a lower, earthier level, that we will be able to grasp why men like Modi can win such support and so much power.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 May 2014 10:12

SwamyG wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ern-policy

The differences between, for example, the Sinhala and Buddhist ethno-religious triumphalism of the Rajapaksa family in tiny Sri Lanka and the moderate Islamism and social conservatism of Nawaz Sharif in troubled Pakistan are patent.

Hmmm. "Moderate islamism" of Sharif?

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 11 May 2014 11:02

shiv wrote:The problem I see among Indians in India is a deep feeling of admiration for the west that makes many of us think that what someone in the west (or an Indian academic in the west) says must be right. Unlike Russia for example - a country with the balls to provide asylum to dissidents from the west.

Would acquiring a western citizenship qualify as the best possible validation of such admiration ? As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 11 May 2014 11:27

PPT Presentation on Counting of Votes

Is a 7.5MB Powerpoint presentation.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 May 2014 13:26

Rahul M wrote:just FYI, Armen's list was linked by priyamvada gopal who was very upset by the "stalking".
I think it may have more to do with the comment beside her name.

No sh*t. Really? Where? Please to link.

Never mind, I found it:
First there's a tweet from Dr. Dibyesh Anand (who is also on the list): https://twitter.com/dibyeshanand/status ... 4620528640 <-- He describes the spreadsheet as "a funny exercise". I'm glad that the man has a sense of humor

. Maybe there's hope for him after all.

Then, Dr. Gopal retweeted it:
https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/sta ... 5327596544
Too bad she makes several incorrect assumptions about me

. For one, I don't really give a hoot as to who gets elected in India (politics never really interested me + I happen to be American!)

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 11 May 2014 13:42

KLP Dubey wrote:Would acquiring a western citizenship qualify as the best possible validation of such admiration ? As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Not really. Muslims from Arab lands, Africa and Asia can do anything for a US visa, but they surely hate America like hell and are usually plotting to bomb it to take down some Americans.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 May 2014 14:08

KLP Dubey wrote:
shiv wrote:The problem I see among Indians in India is a deep feeling of admiration for the west that makes many of us think that what someone in the west (or an Indian academic in the west) says must be right. Unlike Russia for example - a country with the balls to provide asylum to dissidents from the west.
Would acquiring a western citizenship qualify as the best possible validation of such admiration ? As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

No such correlation exists. As far as those who acquire western country citizenship go - some remain very Indian and some probably represent such validation. But at least they are mostly out of sight out of mind.

It is the admirers of the west within India who weigh the nation down in a billion different ways. OT for this thread - but I need to make a list of the ways in which attitudes are subtly moulded by people whose admiration for the west is combined with contempt for India.

But there is a general correlation between English speaking, westernized and educated and "deep admiration of the west". Since all of us on this forum fit that description I am sure at least some people will feel "targeted" by such a statement - but I can't help that. I am not trying to target anyone specific. Such Indians mostly live in India but usually have relatives, friends and contacts in the west whose experiences as narrated to their Indian brethren serve to reinforce attitudes about poverty, dirt, inefficiency, shortages, corruption, shoddiness and obsequiousness which are all generally listed as Indian trademarks.

I have pointed out that there is an entire class of Indian (I am guessing at least 800 million in number) who have no contact at all with the west save from TV and movies and often form the core group representing "poverty, dirt, inefficiency, shortages, corruption, shoddiness and obsequiousness " - the "average Indian". Whether the westernized educated west-admiring Indian likes it or not the majority of Indians belong to the former "core group". As I sit here I can name so many people who fall in that non English speaking, non westernized group who play a role in my life (and every Indian's life) every day: the maid and her family, our mali and his family, general helpers, drivers, waiters, bus conductors, chowkidars, construction workers, garbage collectors, road sweepers, hospital orderlies, crematorium staff, small business owners, caddies, gas cylinder delivery boys, roadside fruit vendors, petrol pump attendants, carpenters, painters, plumbers, auto mechanics, "puncher" (puncture) repair shop boys, sales girls, many neighbours and so many others - mostly uneducated, and with little or no English. if I choose to admire the west and its ways - I simply have to consider the majority of Indians as representative of "poverty, dirt, inefficiency, shortages, corruption, shoddiness and obsequiousness ". I have a choice, and as I see it, I really should get out of the country if I can't stand the majority of its people. I cannot sit here and curse them for not being like the efficient, clean, westernized person I am.

But that is what many educated Indians do. They sit here and admire the west and detest India and Indians. They really should escape from India and leave India to the shoddy poor people and their apologists like me so we can work on bringing whatever change is possible rather than day dreaming of the impossible. I was not joking when I said that DRDO, HAL, OFB of the future will be manned by people from local colleges, with poor English, and no chance of going abroad, grateful for a job that gives them security. Those people are our future. If I can aid them - I will try. For starters I will try not to crinkle my nose at them.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 11 May 2014 15:06

ArmenT wrote:
Rahul M wrote:just FYI, Armen's list was linked by priyamvada gopal who was very upset by the "stalking".
I think it may have more to do with the comment beside her name.
No sh*t. Really? Where? Please to link.

Never mind, I found it:
First there's a tweet from Dr. Dibyesh Anand (who is also on the list): https://twitter.com/dibyeshanand/status ... 4620528640 <-- He describes the spreadsheet as "a funny exercise". I'm glad that the man has a sense of humor . Maybe there's hope for him after all.

Then, Dr. Gopal retweeted it:
https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/sta ... 5327596544
Too bad she makes several incorrect assumptions about me . For one, I don't really give a hoot as to who gets elected in India (politics never really interested me + I happen to be American!)

Ye gaads, that gopal woman is insecure. Anyone know why?

Edit -- no need for the question. ample obvious reasons. Still yuk! though, how do you develop such a personality.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 11 May 2014 15:09

shiv wrote:
KLP Dubey wrote:The problem I see among Indians in India is a deep feeling of admiration for the west that makes many of us think that what someone in the west (or an Indian academic in the west) says must be right. Unlike Russia for example - a country with the balls to provide asylum to dissidents from the west.
I was not joking when I said that DRDO, HAL, OFB of the future will be manned by people from local colleges, with poor English, and no chance of going abroad, grateful for a job that gives them security. Those people are our future. If I can aid them - I will try. For starters I will try not to crinkle my nose at them.

The first step in helping them is to revise and re-implement a Language Policy for India. To make professional education and business possible in the Prakrits (mother-tongues). I am working as part of a team to put together recommendations which we will submit to the new (hopefully) Modi government. Let's see.

The Language Policy drafted decades ago was half-heartedly implemented, or not at all. That's because it was not even well thought-out, comprehensively, from all practical angles. That was probably because of the lack of self-confidence of those generations of Indians. It was thought "practical" and "realistic" to let English remain the language of power, business, higher education, and national institutions (law, etc.). We continue to be told it is our comparative advantage on the international stage - a lie that has now begun to be exposed.

Today hundreds of millions of Indians see English as the only real route out of a cycle of power. BUT...the fact is that English proficiency is actually declining in India, even as demand for English training and English-medium education sky-rockets. What this is doing is that it is stultifying an entire generation of young Indians, just as we have a 'youth bulge'. It is leading to a "pidgin-ization" of an entire nation.

1. Survey results of English Proficiency Index (EPI) in among non-native English speakers worldwide shows India slipping down the rankings fast (from 14 to 21 between 2012 and 2014), even as the number of "English-literate" Indians rises.

2. Putting children from non-English-speaking homes into a school environment where English is the primary medium of instruction is shown to have a stultifying effect on their minds, intellectual confidence and creativity. Such English-medium students grow up unable to express themselves flawlessly either in English or their native mother-tongue. Note that this is the reverse of genuinely bilingual people, where knowing more than one language 'natively' has a beneficial effect on brain development. The vast majority of Indians don't have a word of English spoken at home. Whereas most of us English-proficient Indians have had about 3-4 English-medium educated generations in our families...so we had that home support.

3. Surveys show that students from similar backgrounds studying in vernacular-medium schools who learn English as a second language tend to pick it up much better, due to being comfortable and confident in their educational environment, which endows them with a practical confidence and a hands-on attitude! Also check the stats for IIT-JEE entrants. The percentage of selected candidates who get admitted from among those who choose Hindi/Marathi-language entrance exam is much higher than English applicants - same questions, same standard of grading. Etc...

Even the most enthusiastic purveyors of Anglicization and English-medium schooling in India - Christian missionary convents - morosely admit that the 'butler English' syndrome is rampant in most areas. They hope that English proficiency will "trickle down" over 2-3 generations! Basically what's happening is the Philippinization or Mexicanization of India.

Read this BBC article, for example: English or Hinglish - which will India choose?

But leave culture and human creativity aside. From a purely economic standpoint of human resource development, this haphazard Anglicization is not sustainable for India anymore. In terms of developing a technical resource-pool, China is way ahead. Take the number of computer-literate people in China - MUCH larger than India. That's because in India, to be computer-literate (or educated in almost any profession), you first have to learn an alien human language (English)! So the self-delusion that deeper penetration by English is India's comparative advantage vis a vis other Asian nations has begun to be exposed, and its effects will be visible sooner than later.

India's Anglophile educated elites think of "Globalization" as "Anglicization". This reflects their psychological deracination more than the reality. The fact is that the technological giants of the world have a global vision of "Internationalization", where access to different markets passes through a "Localization" interface. So there is plenty of emerging technological support for multilingual interfaces. That is the technological future, thanks to the sterling insistence of most other non-English cultures, East or West. Recently there was a case where China had Coca Cola destroy a huge consignment because the English font on the products was larger than the Chinese font...

So it is very urgent that India implement a vernacularization policy, a new Language Policy. This is critical for our human resource development, just when we have a huge number of youth entering the educational space and the labour force. Being Gujarati-educated and proud of speaking Hindi even to our DDM English jerks, I hope Modi will take this up with vigour. Its already late for India.

Yet, millions of the poorest Indian families spend upto a third of their income just to send their children to an English-medium school. This is because of the higher-education and professional space in India. That can change only via government policy supporting grassroots aspirations. Plenty of grassroots aspiration exists in India to study in one's mother-tongue. The way forward is to support the grassroots mother-tongues via policy, technology, the revival of Sanskrit to update and standardize the Prakrits, and possibly a common script.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 May 2014 18:36

ArmenT wrote:
Rahul M wrote:just FYI, Armen's list was linked by priyamvada gopal who was very upset by the "stalking".
I think it may have more to do with the comment beside her name.
No sh*t. Really? Where? Please to link.

Never mind, I found it:
First there's a tweet from Dr. Dibyesh Anand (who is also on the list): https://twitter.com/dibyeshanand/status ... 4620528640 <-- He describes the spreadsheet as "a funny exercise". I'm glad that the man has a sense of humor . Maybe there's hope for him after all.

Then, Dr. Gopal retweeted it:
https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/sta ... 5327596544
Too bad she makes several incorrect assumptions about me . For one, I don't really give a hoot as to who gets elected in India (politics never really interested me + I happen to be American!)

Quite amazing isn't it, how quickly they make assumptions and get down to name calling instantaneously when they're under the scanner. Those who criticise can't be closely looked at apparently

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 May 2014 18:52

Just out of curiosity - where did these Einsteins see that they had received gratuitous publicity?
Wonder if they got someone to read out to them the comments below their grand Letter which took 76 of them to compose?

And if they didn't want anyone to see their claims to fame etc, why did they sign off in their grand affiliations such as Distinguished Hallway Chair for Resident Hall Bathroom Monitoring?

BTW, speaking of election paranoia..
"Inadvertent".

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 11 May 2014 19:20

Shreeman wrote: Ye gaads, that gopal woman is insecure. Anyone know why?

Edit -- no need for the question. ample obvious reasons. Still yuk! though, how do you develop such a personality.

the problem is, she's already been loved up by the tag team of harbans and matrimc. So now she's identified the enemy......you wimen abusing abdulls on this forum. guns will blaze.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 11 May 2014 19:24

KLP Dubey wrote:
shiv wrote:The problem I see among Indians in India is a deep feeling of admiration for the west that makes many of us think that what someone in the west (or an Indian academic in the west) says must be right. Unlike Russia for example - a country with the balls to provide asylum to dissidents from the west.
Would acquiring a western citizenship qualify as the best possible validation of such admiration ? As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Indians went from one extreme to another in 15 years.
Before 2000, we behaved like slaves of the US, everything in US was good onlee. Everything in India was bad onlee.
Then around 2005-08, with the "India Shining" stuff, many of us grew horns and started saying how we were better than US in everything (forgetting that IT jobs were all bhiksha from US) just because we could code in Java. India visits were difficult because relatives and friends would feign sympathy at US economy and ask if slums were coming up in our neighborhoods.
Now it is back to pre-2000 levels, when the realization of IT bubble having burst is setting in, prices are sky high, corruption everywhere. The same friends are now cursing and blaming MMS and pinning hopes on Modi.

Interesting days ahead.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 May 2014 21:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebdEHsfVWgg

Discussion on the Indian elections by a channel plus professor from Hawaii of all places. Pretty decent introductory discussion, misinformed in places, but generally adequate.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 11 May 2014 21:44

KJoishy wrote:(forgetting that IT jobs were all bhiksha from US)

would you also say China is a beggar country because it exports more than it imports? And USA is also a beggar country because it exports more material goods than it imports (minus oil). And extending that logic, Arabs are the yejamaan and the rest of the world is beggars???

we do a service and get paid for it. is it only beggaring if services are offered and not goods? what is the need for self flagellation (especially on this topic, ad nauseum, from you)...

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 11 May 2014 22:18

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 May 2014 22:24

TSJones wrote:the problem is, she's already been loved up by the tag team of harbans and matrimc. So now she's identified the enemy......you wimen abusing abdulls on this forum. guns will blaze.

Please support your claims with evidence or shut up (or not and continue to make a fool of yourself though somehow I feel that you are lot more intelligent than you look). Do you hve some contacts with prof. Gopal?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 May 2014 01:27

shiv wrote:BRFite vsunder has come up with an interesting thought. Priyamvada Gopal may be the daughter of vehemently anti-BJP Sarvepalli Gopal, who in turn is the son of President Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan. Their images are below in order of age and luminance, etc.

1. You can go to Google Books, and look at the Acknowledgements section of said P. Gopal's book, "Literary Radicalism in India: Gender, Nation and the Transition to Independence". The first names of her mother, father, brother, and names of her aunt and grandmother are there. Since they are not illuminating, I do not mention them here.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lf8wfOR1058C

2. Things are not simple, P.Gopal penned these words:
http://www.leninology.com/2006/06/wante ... mpire.html

But worst of all is the patent attempt to bring in a 'positively disposed to Empire' Indian woman to neutralise what you saw as the 'aggression' of the Indian woman you had invited to be on your morning programme. It is obvious what that is trying to accomplish and completely unworthy of someone in your position. It is, after all, an old colonial strategy: pick the good native to neutralise the bad one quickly

Said aggressive Indian woman was aforementioned P. Gopal.

3. Here is more P. Gopal, asking why shouldn't the British pay reparations?
http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2 ... eparations

4. You should understand that Indian women who speak out in public take a tremendous amount of sh*t from Indian men, and so there is an automatic defensive reaction on any such thing as ArmenT's spreadsheet. I would say Indian women are as patriotic as Indian men and often have as much political and policy insight as the male of the species; yet few if any frequent a place like BRF. Though most here address ideas and not a person's gender, some who do not make the effort simply not worth it.

5. Since being politically opposed to Modi & the BJP does not make one a chamcha of the Angrez - a good number of the Indian electorate are not going to be voting for Modi or the BJP - I take it that P. Gopal's opposition is not the issue, but rather bringing up this opposition not to the Indian electorate that makes the decision, but in some phoren rag. I agree that was stupid. But not all stupidities arise from being overwhelmed by West-philia.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 12 May 2014 01:47

matrimc wrote:
TSJones wrote:the problem is, she's already been loved up by the tag team of harbans and matrimc. So now she's identified the enemy......you wimen abusing abdulls on this forum. guns will blaze.
Please support your claims with evidence or shut up (or not and continue to make a fool of yourself though somehow I feel that you are lot more intelligent than you look). Do you hve some contacts with prof. Gopal?

Do I have contacts with Gopal? Are you kidding? She's a left wing liberal. I don't agree with practically anything she writes. However, I think it is high humor when guys like yourself take it upon yourself to harass her and oppose her ideology.

And yes, you are taking this seriously so I will no more post about it. I'm done. I'd like to be friends with you.

erased link to Gopal's twitter. enough of this.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 12 May 2014 02:03

TSJones wrote:Do I have contacts with Gopal? Are you kidding? She's a left wing liberal. I don't agree with practically anything she writes. However, I think it is high humor when guys like yourself take it upon yourself to harass her and oppose her ideology.

Do I have contacts with matrimc? Are you kidding? this is an internet forum.I dont agree with practically anything he eats(he eats pappu and i eat (tfta)dalmakhni).However, I think it is high humour when guys like yourself take it upon yourself to harass her "harassers" and oppose the ideology of those who oppose her ideology.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now coming to serious non serious matter of P Gopal(is she actually relevant to this thread?) ,
AGupta garu thank you for the pointer to the acknowledgement page of Ms Gopal's book, now we can lay to rest the Sarvepalli conjecture.
BTW did you notice that she expresses her gratitude to both Vijay Prashad(known Hindu baiter who has labelled Hinduism as the original Fascism) and Ania Loomba (yep the Englis Prof(one of three) who sponsored the Pig-Penn petition on Modi) in the acknowledgement to her Book (published in 2005!

)

Sample her latest rambling farticle in OpenMag on India taking a Fascist turn, along with SidVaradrajan's latest ( http://svaradarajan.com/2014/05/09/if-n ... modi-wins/ ) and Ananya Vajpeyi's( http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/wh ... 888079.ece ) its another "all leftists are folding iam still the Uber leftist standing!" kind of screech.

Look who's romancing the autocrat
Think before you dismiss those who see the intimations of fascism as alarmists

Let’s get a few things out of the way. Criticising an influential political leader is not evidence of disrespect for India and Indians. Since I happen to live and work in the United Kingdom at the moment, I’ve been turned into a ‘desh drohi’ (traitor) at the receiving end of vitriolic denunciations for having voiced grave disquiet that a professed adherent of Hindutva might lead the proudly plural country in which I was born and educated and for which I continue to have great affection. Ironically, much of the hostility—often couched in violent and misogynist terms—has come from other NRIs, keyboard warriors sitting in Salford or San Jose, giving themselves sobriquets such as ‘Atheist Hindu’ or ‘Internet Hindu’ (no actual spiritual concerns appear to trouble them) and pretending that shrill support for Narendra Modi’s candidacy somehow makes them better Indians and truer Hindus than others. Modi campaigners reject criticism as ‘foreign’ but welcome the uncritical support for Modi which has come from NRIs like the British peer, Lord Meghnad Desai, and the American economist, Jagdish Bhagwati. Similarly, dissenting from what is presented as a majority view is not anti-democratic: democracy would be a pretty pointless endeavour if dominant trends were not subjected to robust challenge. India has long been a country of dissenters however much Modi’s adherents might wish it otherwise; to be or remain proudly Indian is surely to not allow oneself to be cowed—or bamboozled—into acquiescence.

What should worry us is the prospect of a regime that will create and enforce a culture of such acquiescence to narrow conceptions of India, in both social and economic terms. Such compliance can be ensured through a combination of intimidation, familiar to many in Gujarat already, as the Padmashri-awardee, Ganesh Devy recently noted, and consent produced by an obliging media, happy to purvey disinformation or blithely ignore the unpalatable. Most recently, a critical article containing myth-busting points about Modi was deleted by the website of the newspaper DNA: how much worse will this kind of repressive complicity get should he get the top job? Some have argued that we should separate Modi’s Hindutva ideology and RSS affiliations from his claims to being a man of development and progenitor of the so-called ‘Gujarat Model’ to be launched on a national scale, and focus on the latter. This is to conveniently separate two integrally connected parts of Modi’s appeal to many, including those who are not religious zealots but eager for strong rule: together, hardcore Hindutva adherent and Vikas Purush hold out the promise of all-encompassing ideological certainty, no room for doubt, diversity or flexibility, razing to the ground whatever stands in its way, regardless of human cost. It makes no sense to think that a neoliberal Hindu extremist will remain extreme on the economy but go soft on his cultural nationalist ideology whatever ‘moderate’ face is currently being put on for electoral consumption. For all the ‘anti-commie’ rhetoric of his most devoted followers, Modi and ‘Modinomics’ are actually in thrall to the Chinese model—capitalism on steroids combined with Stalinist autocracy, no pesky democratic processes, popular protests or sub-nationalisms allowed to get in the way. Democracy is an idol that will be worshipped only to the point where electoral majorities swing in Modi’s direction. After that, any criticism or popular resistance will be managed and contained, dissent turned into sedition. Note the suggestion already made by a Modi ally that his critics, frequently vilified as ‘Hindu-haters’, will need to leave India.

+++
This scenario is one that some in the liberal intelligentsia, such as historian Ramachandra Guha, have dismissed as ‘alarmist’. Like political scientist Ashutosh Varshney, Guha touts the resilience of Indian democratic institutions which will automatically forestall any such repressive scenario. While India’s democratic institutions remain hugely valuable, they are not invariably robust—not everyone at all times has been a beneficiary of impartial administration or justice— and as Indira Gandhi in dictatorial mode proved, they can also be suspended by Emergency powers. Blind faith in their invulnerability will, perversely, undermine them. In days to come, the defence of democratic institutions will require less romanticism and greater courage than some in the Indian commentariat are showing, even as several brave voices continue to speak out against the dangers of simply turning India over to the Hindutva brigade and hoping for the best. It is wrong, too, to suggest that all of Modi’s critics overlook the cronyism and dynastic culture of the Congress and endorse it as ‘the last bulwark against fascism’ (Guha). The venerable anthropologist Andre Beteille has been quoted as saying that because the Congress has become too complacent and caught up with a single family, the BJP, which he doesn’t like, should now come to power; we must live with the choice of ‘unsavoury’ Modi as leader. That pragmatic attitude would be fine if we could somehow overlook not only the autocracy and unrepentant communalism of the man who is being posited as the only alternative in a bad situation, but also Modi’s own cosy relationships with the Adanis, Ambanis and Tatas of the world—the sweetheart deals he struck with them bear a striking resemblance to cronyism. Even a hard-headed magazine like The Economist finally shied away from amoral pragmatism noting that while change is desperately needed—and no one can deny that it is, given the Congress’ abysmal failures— it simply cannot come from someone so unapologetically ‘associated with sectarian hatred’ and resultant violence.

The Economist—much to the chagrin of Modibhakts and unusually for such a conservative journal—was bracingly plain- spoken. It is the slow death of precisely such vital plain-speaking within a largely acquiescent, indeed fawningly pro-Modi Indian media, that we have to worry about in days to come, the token acknowledgment of dissenting views notwithstanding. Quite apart from the overblown support for a candidate whose claims to exceptional growth in the state of Gujarat are, at best, questionable, we must assess the increasingly evasive nature of criticism of Modi as dissenters prepare to come to terms with a shift in power. The danger to the Indian public sphere may come less from direct repression— though we should certainly not underestimate that possibility, given how it has already been exercised in places like Kashmir and Chhattisgarh—than a quiet accommodation of an ideological status quo. As erstwhile naysayers become emollient, they start legitimising the claims of extremists to having become more moderate overnight, like that leopard which went for zebra stripes, but with no real evidence of such a profound change of heart. Thus we have Swami Agnivesh, stern critic of the 2002 Gujarat massacres, fawningly insist that ‘he can see a new face of Modi ji’. Where? In election campaign ‘speeches and interviews’. Naturally.

Then we have true Liberal Guha, ‘a Hindu and a patriot’, as he insists, opine condescendingly that ‘alarmist critics’ worry too much about the advent of Hit- ler or Mussolini-style Fascism. He goes on to generously concede that such ‘fears are not entirely invalid’ since Modi is, in fact, quite intolerant of dissent and has intimidated artists and writers in Gujarat. We will set aside for now the matter of Haren Pandya, the BJP dissenter who turned up mysteriously, to use a non-alarmist phrase, lacking in vital signs, or the serving police officers now paying the price of whistleblowing. It is worth recalling that many Liberal European commentators in the 1930s also insisted that German democratic institutions would withstand totalitarianism.

Just to be clear: no one who evokes Germany or Hitler in the context of Modi and Hindutva—easily sneered at as ‘scare-mongering’ by the terminally complacent—is saying that Modi is a carbon copy of Hitler. We are clearly at a different historical moment and in another cultural context. Those who invoke the dangers of fascism are, however, noting that deeply authoritarian regimes often emerge from perfectly democratic processes in tandem with long years of demonising minorities and valourising both strongmen and growth rates. If these warnings are overdoing it, then those who blithely insist that fascism has no currency in the current context are culpable of wilfully minimising danger signs. However much we wish it were so, India hasn’t been issued a special get-out clause that renders it peculiarly immune to the possibilities of fascism—defined broadly as militarised authoritarian rule in the name of the majority community at the expense of minorities, both religious and political, accompanied by a personality cult. The showmanship and spectacle that have accompanied Modi electoral rallies are entirely familiar to a fascist ethos and should elicit deep dismay, not grudging aesthetic admiration. As the political analyst Dilip Simeon notes in his excellent blog, while it is counter- productive to shout ‘fascism’ at every opportunity, it is also ‘dangerously misleading’ and, frankly, simplistic, to suggest ‘that Fascism may be properly recognised only when it seizes absolute power.’ By that point, it might be too late to abandon the supercilious postures of mild concern. Unlike disarmingly honest internet Modibots who openly insist that a ‘benevolent dictator is better than ignorant democracy’, liberal purveyors of moderation and nuance will only admit blandly that there are ‘troubled communal waters’ or, to use Pratap Bhanu Mehta’s unflappable phrase, there ‘should be no complacency over the communal question’. That suggestion quickly morphs into advice to the BJP to simply ‘act reassuringly’.

+++
Since much attention has been paid to the habit of hyperbole that ‘alarmists’ are ostensibly given to, let’s assess Liberal moderation or hypo-bole. In a recent op-ed, Mehta deprecates something he calls ‘The Indian Left’ (presumably not just the electoral parties) and seeks to hoist it on its own petard. ‘The Left’, he pronounces damningly, ‘are incapable of dialectical thinking’. By ‘dialectics’, Mehta appears to mean a mishmash of factors that which have gone into the making of Hindu nationalism, including a larger culture of the ‘political construction of identities’ in which other parties have also played the communal game. (Chances are that neither Hegel nor Marx would recognise this version of dialectics, but let that pass). Including an uncertain economic future and various secessionist movements, these ‘dialectics’ can only be overcome by the transcendence provided by ‘a growth narrative that can restore India’s confidence’. Curiously, then, for Mehta, Hindu nationalism can only be defeated by that rather undialectical formula offered by Modi himself: the triumph of the neoliberal economic will.

I’m not saying that all this talk about the need for intellectual ‘complexity’ combined with denunciations of ‘alarmism’ is so much sophistry which simply feeds the so-called Modi wave. Or at least, that’s not all I am saying. I am asking what will happen to old-fashioned plain speaking, if throat-clearing and fudging become the order of the day at a time when India faces the very real prospect of rule by a man who is known for an authoritarian style of governance, cosy relations with large powerful corporations, a willingness to run roughshod over whatever comes in his way, be they protesting farmers or dissenting police officers, and a profound commitment to an organisation which is founded on the idea of a Hindu Rashtra, turning India into a Hindu Pakistan. It’s all very well to bang on, as Mehta does, about ‘a complicated country feeling its way through difficult times’, but should such banal observations be allowed to obscure the dawning reality of majoritarian rule? If alarmism is unhelpful (to whom?), who is helped by equivocation and waffling which render authoritarianism, described euphemistically by Guha as ‘a tendency to centralise and self-aggrandise’, a matter of ‘unbecoming’ bad manners rather than a lethal political problem? In a typically palliative manner, Mehta suggests that we must now proceed ‘on a wing and a prayer’. A less romantic if more difficult approach may well lie in disavowing all this obfuscation, embracing honesty, and, as so many already are in the towns and villages of India, putting up some quite outright and courageous resistance.

(Priyamvada Gopal is a member of the Faculty of English at the University of Cambridge)

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 12 May 2014 02:07

I think it is high humour when guys like yourself take it upon yourself to harass her harassers and oppose the ideology of those who oppose her ideology.

yes, there could be some truth to that.

So I decided to stop.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 May 2014 02:40

I am all for her saying whatever she wants to say. I defend her right to say it. But there is no call for her to ask the British to come riding into India and rescue the poor oppressed folks from big bad Modi.

By the way a couple of her comrades she thanked in that book are interesting. Prof Suvir Kaul and Prof. Ania Loomba currently at UPenn who were the main instigators in Wharton's actions to withdraw aninvitation to CM Modi to speak at the grad business school India club or some such thing. These two professors were after CM Modi right from 2002 and were signatories to IDRF along with Prof a. Chatterji and Ms. Teesta Setalwad who are at Berkely now.

By the way, A_Gupta I think you are wrong in assuming that she is an Indian though it is not really germane to the issue - Freedom of speech - under discussion to materially support the Nigerian govt. to rescue the abducted school children. OTOH she is very vocal in her opposition to US going into Iraq and Afghanistan. Hidden agenda driven by favoritism towards certain religion? Did marxists infiltrate Islamic extremists or is it the other way round?

If she doesn't gave the required mathematical logic background to do one of her her job responsibilities, I.e. Teach her students out critical analysis it would be on her interest to stop wasting her time on twitter trying to organize unions and politicking and sit in the classes of one of her Professor friends - prof. Anuj dawar - who has put up some excellent material on the net on algorithmic complexity, automata, computable logic instead of making herself an a** on twitter.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 May 2014 03:49

Like Harvard doing research into milkman Lalu's railway innovations,so too will the US be engulfed in "shock and awe" when Mr. M delivers.The western approach to fawn over the man or woman in charge,in an attempt to seduce the leader of the pack,so that its own interests can be served,is played out time and time again ad nauseum,cometh an election' or regime change.There are exceptions of course,especially if it is a Russian leader like Putin!

Bharath.Subramanyam · Post by **Bharath.Subramanyam** » 12 May 2014 04:23

Wanted to run a theory by the gurus here.

Theory one:
The first time Nehru-Gandhi family's moral authority was exposed was in Emergency. Till that time any corruption in Congress could be explained away by pointing it to a minister in centre or state. Always the family was above moral questions (even after 1962 war people didn't question or defeat Nehru). It seems Nehru Family was like the Emperor of Japan who was considered not just the sovereign in the ruling sense, but also in the moral sense. I have read some reports/books which says how the Japanese media even after WWII never questioned the Emperor. Also there is very amazing document/book which talks about how General MacArthur was advised by sociologists & anthropologists in US were advising him on how to make changes to Japan. One particular item they told him was that don't remove the Monarchy altogether, since it is seen as an embodiment of Japan and moral. They said (if I remember correctly) that if Monarchy is abolished or attacked in open, it would lead to huge resentment against the US army and the army will face daily attacks.

When I talk to elders in my family (Especially 80+ people), they had some romantic notion of Nehru. It seems there was Japanese style idea in India also, that Nehru can do no wrong. It seems it rubbed off in to Indira also initially. It looks like Emergency broke off this sheen in most parts of India. Of course Indira won back in 1980. But the moral hold of dynasty took a beating. From there on, it has been slide downwards. Of course there is always an inertia effect that will run its course. But by 1989 Congress (12 years from the end of Emergency) had come to levels below 272. May be even before 1977, people would have found fault with Congress on various issues, but I don't think the moral authority of dynasty was ever questioned till that time.

I feel it was the beginning of the end.

Do give me your thoughts, critique, suggestions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 May 2014 04:46

Rajiv stealing money in Bofors into personal account was what did them in. Nehru & Indira did that for party funding and money was in India. But Rajiv took the money and put into personal account in Swiss banks. This ripped the moral stature of the Nehru-Gandhi family.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 May 2014 05:22

Priyamvada Gopal is one of those who thinks her 'idea of India' trumps others. Let's face it if she didn't hew the leftist line at Cambridge, she get another stipend?

It's publish against Modi /Hindus and get to move up the academic ladder.

Just look at all the people who signed petitions against Modi in the Guardian and the UK rags.

May 16, 2014 is the dawning of a new day. The Grima Wormtongues having been silenced.

PG will not be worth the attention of a blue fly on the garbage heap of history. And that is a good thing.