Urgent need for a Pakistan desk/Pakistan chair in India

[SSridhar]

Has anyone red 'aargh ka Darya' by Qurratulain Hyder ? I have heard Tarek Fatah quote from this book about what pakistaniyat means

There was recently an article (in Dawn ?) which discussed why the great writer Ms. Qurratulain re-migrated to India after spending a couple of years. The author beat about the bush for various reasons. But, in the words of Ms. Qurratulain, it was simply this: “Islam! Islam has had a rough ride here. If the Pakistani team begins to lose at cricket, Islam falls into danger. Every problem in the world is ultimately reduced to this word Islam. Other Muslim countries resent the fact that the sole contractors of Islam are these people from Pakistan. Everything is being upholstered with narrow-mindedness. Music, art, civilisation, learning and literature, they are all being viewed from the perspective of the Mullah . Islam, which was like a rising river whose majestic flow had been augmented by so many tributaries to turn it into a cascading force, has been reduced to a muddy stream which is being enclosed from all four sides with high walls.”

Josh Malihabadi, another great Urdu litterateur of the 20th century and who had won the Padma Bhushan in c. 1954 from the Indian Government, was lured by President Iskander Mirza of Pakistan, but had to come back to India dejected after Ayub Khan deposed Iskander Mirza and Malihabadi was branded as an Indian agent.

[Abhay_S]

I have a question.

I see a number of Pakistanis in DC who are directors of South Asia studies. Pakistanis seem to be punching above its weight in this regard. One reason could be these folks have a partnership with the lobbyists to get a share of the USAID money after the Kerry Luger bill. How does this affect us?

We on the other had have very few folks in Such. Do such institutes matter ?

[rsingh]

Here is the Pakistani chair. Now may we close this thread? Running away and running fast

[shiv]

Here is the Pakistani chair. Now may we close this thread? Running away and running fast

Wrong
See this
http://www.trashsociety.com/wp-content/ ... house.jpeg

[member_22733]

That pic above is NSFL (not safe for life). To my misfortune I opened this in a coffee shop while munching on a chocolate brownie.

Jeeeehard on shiv saar.

[ramana]

SS, Shiv, UB, A_Gupta and Sanjay,
While we cant do much about creating a Pakistan Chair in India we can creaVe a Pakistan Desk in the Internet.
What I propose is a list of folks who should get familiar with a few books on Pakistan ad get ready to write and spread knowledge.


So for starters all should have read the links in the first post of ever Pak News and Discussion thread.
Would like you all to suggest a few books for ref to read.

A-Gupta and Sanjay,
Need you to help find books on clear writing short rebuttals. Don't want long treatises.
Any way reader attention span is short.

UB need to teach acid wit and pithy sentence structure.

Lets do something useful.

[ramana]

Here is a subject for study or question to be answered?

Any sort of Indian ABM cover on the Paki side is going to make it inconvenient for them to hold out their threat of nuking India if India responds to a terrorist attack from Pakistan.

If you look at the progression from 1998 ->
1. Overt Paki nuclearization 1998
2. Kargil war expecting that India cannot expand the conflict as it did in 1965
3. 2002 parliament attack and mobilization that did not lead to conflict leading to the conclusion that mobilization was too slow to respond
4. 2002-2008 : repeated terrorist attacks from Pakistan knowing full well that India will not be able to mobilize fast enough and will hesitate to attack because of nukes
5. Post 2008 - "Cold Start" ideas brought up
6. Post 2010 - Tactical nuclear weapons/Nasr claim from Pakistan as a response to Cold Start
7. Post 2015 ->ABM cover to neutralize any Paki response to Indian punitive action
8: The near future: Back to infiltration and trying to support insurgencies in India using expatriates outside India?


1) What needs to be done to make Pakistan fail?
2) What will China and possibly the US do to prevent that?
3) How will Pakistan leverage these nations to avoid collapse?

[ramana]

X-posting....

What needs to be done to make Pakistan fail? What will China and possibly the US do to prevent that? How will Pakistan leverage these nations to avoid collapse?

Actually Shiv, if you ask me what we need to do is take out Roland Reagan's Star Wars play book and keep at it. Just outspend the Pakis on defence and up the ante. There will come a tipping point when the four father will hesitate to give even smart weapons to them because they really don't trust the Pakis. And besides US will always have this worry that anything given to the Pakis will give the Chinese a chance to copy. And the Chinese are also, I think, worried that the US would snoop around stuff they give to the Pakis.

As a result you see that most of the stuff that's going to the Pakis, F-16, thundaar etc aren't really state of the art. IMO the S400 buy may be the start of the Indian version of Star Wars. If what we are reading comes to pass and India does develop a capability to enforce a no fly zone 200 km within Paki territory then it would be interesting to see what the US or China will dare to give to them for free that would neutralise/counteract this?

If they go back to infiltration, it would actually be step back for them and with the kind of technology at the borders today, it's not going to be as easy as it was in the 1990s early 2000. I hope we just keep upping the ante quietly while refusing to talk unless it's about terror. Meanwhile MSA and his ilk can have their chai biskoot and talk about a pissful progress till they join Pisfull Bidwai in jannat with their 72.

^^ more weapons to puki land fortifies them as much as it destabilizes them. It'd be a double whammy for us. The best time to dismantle pukistan and take over land that belongs to us was 70 years ago, the next best time is next 10 years. The more we wait, the more intense the blow up is going to be. pakis are donkeys and pigs, they have no culture to speak of, no achievements, no government, no sense of citizenship nor have they worked hard to build themselves up. They can afford to blow themselves up at our borders, we can't. The lives of our soldiers matters and it's better sacrificed doing something meaningful.

Gulping pukistan without burping should be the next big goal of the "darinder modi" govt. I mean the intellectual cabal is crying anyway, what does it matter? Balochistanis and Pashtuns don't want to be a part of piggistan, start with them.

Actually Shiv, if you ask me what we need to do is take out Roland Reagan's Star Wars play book and keep at it. Just outspend the Pakis on defence and up the ante. There will come a tipping point when the four father will hesitate to give even smart weapons to them because they really don't trust the Pakis. And besides US will always have this worry that anything given to the Pakis will give the Chinese a chance to copy. And the Chinese are also, I think, worried that the US would snoop around stuff they give to the Pakis.

The four fathers have kept Pakistan afloat..just. And they will continue to do so for a variety of reasons. This will not change even if the Indian economy exceeds the Pakis by 100 times. Look at NoKo-SoKo equation. China shares a huge bilateral trade with SoKo and yet it continues to prop up NoKo with little signs of abandoning this policy. Russia as well, even if the support may have reduced.

As a result you see that most of the stuff that's going to the Pakis, F-16, thundaar etc aren't really state of the art. IMO the S400 buy may be the start of the Indian version of Star Wars. If what we are reading comes to pass and India does develop a capability to enforce a no fly zone 200 km within Paki territory then it would be interesting to see what the US or China will dare to give to them for free that would neutralise/counteract this?

The stuff may not be state of the art, but it's enough to give us a headache. F-16s are their only nuclear delivery air platform. While it's easy to shoot down 50, shooting down 100 takes a little more effort and increases the probability that one or two will skip through. We HAD to go for S400 to account for this probability and probable augmentation of their air fleet in the future. Which means we need to commit more resources to the Western border, resources that would have been very useful to reinforce and secure out North and Eastern borders. We need to get additional resources to do that.

If they go back to infiltration, it would actually be step back for them and with the kind of technology at the borders today, it's not going to be as easy as it was in the 1990s early 2000.

Yet they managed to get terrorists into Uri, Jammu and Gurdaspur, despite heavy fencing and border patrolling. No fence is fool proof. Once again citing the case of NoKo-SoKo border, recently, a NoKo soldier simply walked across the DMZ to SoKo barracks and wasn't even detected until he knocked the doors to give himself up!!

Pakis will continue to probe, to try and infiltrate here and there and find enough canon fodder within and beyond (in India) for their dirty work.

I hope we just keep upping the ante quietly while refusing to talk unless it's about terror. Meanwhile MSA and his ilk can have their chai biskoot and talk about a pissful progress till they join Pisfull Bidwai in jannat with their 72.

I believe that's exactly what is happening. GoI is refusing to budge from it's "talk terror or not at all" stance, the opposition, with the exception of MSA-types and a few WKKs are unable to play the Paki tune overtly, even if they do, no one cares. GoI is completely ignoring the Dehati aurat shenanigans and which is why we see Hajams and MockShoot, get shriller and desperate and resort of ad hominems and low blows. I believe they really expected (or probably were assured?) that things would soon get back to the earlier state of affairs. That hasn't happened and the tantrums are there for all to see. I wonder why they thought that things would remain the same...

Good thinking..

A few truths....

Ronald Reagan model of FSU collapse wont work for there was no one propping FSU up.
On the other hand Pakis have US and China in that order.

While China supplies nukes US provides delivery systems. US gave $20B of funds since 9/11.
Pak would have collapsed long ago but for this. And as US gives so will KSA etc chip in.

Nukes by themselves would just sit there!

Internal collpase is best option for Pakistan as Rajaram says.

Despite all the ummahness, nationalism has succeeded in Muslim lands all over the world from Morocco to Indonesia. Pak is an agglomeration just as Ottoman Turkey was.

Balochistan and Pakhtuns are repressed nationalities.

[ramana]

Three X-posts...

Folks please post here also....

{quote="Alka_P"}Gulping pukistan without burping should be the next big goal of the "darinder modi" govt. I mean the intellectual cabal is crying anyway, what does it matter? Balochistanis and Pashtuns don't want to be a part of piggistan, start with them.{/quote}

I think we should give up this notion of recovering our lands, save for Kashmir and the Northern Areas. The rest of the land won't come empty. I don't think we would want to get the land back with what the Pakistaniyat that grows there today.

Pakistan is simply a temporary quarantine for all those Indians who are infected with Pakistaniyat. As and when Bharat finds a cure and an adequate delivery system, Western India, otherwise called Pakistan, too would be reintegrated into India.

KP with Money and dissatisfaction, Balcohis with brotherhood and Sindh with water security , business and "affinity' opportunity. These are the Tools to prepare Pakjabi Fools for Hoors. Rich India will be magnet for all the Wadheras , Shaderas ,Peers, Zamindars. This is where all four Saam Daam Bhed , Dhand will do the Parchand , prepare the dish for nibling Khand by Khand to merge in Akhand.

{quote="amit"}

I think we should give up this notion of recovering our lands, save for Kashmir and the Northern Areas. The rest of the land won't come empty. I don't think we would want to get the land back with what the Pakistaniyat that grows there today.{/quote}

Pakistan is simply a temporary quarantine for all those Indians who are infected with Pakistaniyat. As and when Bharat finds a cure and an adequate delivery system, Western India, otherwise called Pakistan, too would be reintegrated into India.

It's not like pukistan hasn't been broken into two before... break them into smaller pieces and drive the islam-infected animals to the containment zone. It is Indian land. Period. There's no consessions on that. One thing we can learn from the pukies is not never give up your land and always ask for more. They've been harping over Kashmir since 70 years and they've bankrupted and whored themselves out for it. All we have to do is send a few tanks and seal the deal. pakistan isn't really a country or a valid entity. It's just an extension of the islamic invaders who weren't wiped out completely from the subcontinent when the time was right. As is the usual tradition of ours of letting the enemy go unscathed so they can grow stronger and kill us later on

[ramana]

Seminar had a whole issue devoted to "Decoding Pakistan". It has a series of articles by the usual chatteratti. The title s are very interesting.

Decoding Pakistan

• •
  THE PROBLEM
  Posed by C. Raja Mohan, Distinguished Fellow, Observer Research Foundation, Delhi
  
  •
  WILL NAWAZ SHARIF'S THIRD TENURE BE DIFFERENT?
  Rasul Bakhsh Rais, Director General, Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad (ISSI)
  
  •
  SOCIAL, RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL CHANGE IN PAKISTAN
  Matthew Nelson, Reader in Politics, School of Oriental and African Studies, London
  
  •
  THE RISE OF SECTARIANISM
  Christophe Jaffrelot, Senior Research Fellow, CERI-Sciences Po, Paris; Visiting Professor, King's India Institute, London
  
  •
  THE PAKISTAN MILITARY: SEARCHING FOR STATE AND SOCIETY
  Ayesha Siddiqa, Charles Wallace Fellow, St. Antony's College, University of Oxford
  
  •
  PAKISTANI MILITARY AND FOREIGN POLICY
  Ejaz Haider, Editor, National Security Affairs, Capital TV, and Visiting Fellow, the Sustainable Development Policy Institute (SDPI), Islamabad
  
  •
  NUCLEAR SECURITY REGIME IN SOUTH ASIA
  Feroz Hassan Khan, former Brigadier General, the Pakistan Army and Director, Strategic Plans Division; Faculty, Naval Postgraduate School, University of Monterey, California
  
  •
  INDIA-PAKISTAN RELATIONS: IS THERE A HAPPY FUTURE?
  Vikram Sood, former Chief, Research and Analysis Wing, Government of India, Delhi
  
  •
  THE KASHMIR FACTOR
  Manoj Joshi, Distinguished Fellow, Observer Research Foundation, Delhi
  
  •
  AFGHANISTAN: A REGIONAL FLASHPOINT
  Aryaman Bhatnagar, Associate Fellow, ORF and Wilson John, Senior Fellow, ORF, Delhi
  
  •
  PAKISTAN'S POLICY TOWARDS AFGHANISTAN POST-2014
  Talat Masood, retired Lt. General, the Pakistan Army; former Secretary, Defence Production, Ministry of Defence, Islamabad
  
  •
  THE FUTURE OF CHINA-PAKISTAN RELATIONS
  Jayadeva Ranade, Member, National Security Advisory Board; and President, Centre for China Analysis and Strategy; former Additional Secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, GOI, Delhi
  
  •
  THE FUTURE OF US-PAKISTAN RELATIONS
  Daniel Markey, Senior Fellow, Council for Foreign Relations, New York
  
  •
  BACKPAGE

[ramana]

Shiv,
I know you might be reading this.
With elevation of NSA to Cabinet rank the purpose of this thread has been accomplished.
Jai Hind!!!

[Philip]

I agree with Shiv that we need a chair of Pak in India.My only doubt is whether it should be a western style commode , with all mod cons like Toto WCs with sprays at diff. temperatures, air wipes, etc., or an eastern style squatting pan with a tap and lotah.Given Paki propensity to go backwards in development, the latest technological thrones would surely be beyond their comprehension.Remember how Khmer Rouge soldiers thought WCs were for cleaning veggies and were furious when they disappeared after being flushed!

If the squatting pan is also founx too scientific for the Paki chair , may I suggest the nearest bush? Leaves could also replace toilet rolls being environmentally friendly.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Having spent over a decade along with BRF scholars and experts on Pakistan it pains me to see the level of ignorance there is about Pakistan and a complete absence of coherent ideas about dealing with a deeply dysfunctional, failing state like Pakistan.

India really needs a special Pakistan desk to to be chaired by a group of experts. (In fact this should be done for all significant countries including the US and China, but that is OT)

The reason for starting this thread is simply to throw the idea out into the public domain via this forum and use this thread as a repository of "essential reading" about Pakistan which every member of a Pakistan desk should read in order to understand and deal with Pakistan.

I do realize that we have a "first post" of every Paki thread that serves as just such a repository, but I believe the time has come to have a separate dedicated thread that can be called up at any time as a reference point to look up books and material on Pakistan that many of us have read and that should be essential reading for anyone who belongs to a Pakistan desk that helps make policy on Pakistan. I would like to add the names of books and refercne material one by one - ie. perhaps one or two per post with a short review of content. Without intending this to be a self advertisement and acknowledging that both the books I star with are a bit dated, i will make the first two posts about books I have been involved with - one of my own and that of Uneven Cohen. Please add to the list - with a link if need be and a short review.

Welcome back Hakim saar. Long time you have been missed on the forum.

As a first i think at least for BRFites we should have a posting condition for Pakistan. Either the person:
1) Had spent at least 5 years in Pakistan; or
2) At least read enough on Pakistan. At least three of the following:
a) Shivs primer
b) Ghost Wars
c) C. Fair's Fighting To The End
d) Hussein Haqqani- Reimagining Pakistan
e) Hussein Haqqani- Magnificent Delusions
f) Hussein Haqqani- Between Mosque and Military
g) S. Cohen- The Idea of Pakistan


All the above conditions can be waived for special candidates who can prove with YouTube viewing history that they have watched 150 hrs + of Zaid Hamid videos.

[Rudradev]

One should tie a long rope to one leg of the Pakistan Chair. This is to be pulled from behind when the occupant of the Pakistan Desk tries to sit down.

[ramana]

RD The premise is to have an expert on Pakistan in India.
Not the other way.

[ramana]

One success of BRF's multiple threads on dealing with Pakistan is the recent Shabaz Badmash realization war is not an option for Pakistan.
However, he still gives nuke blackmail.

[Cyrano]

Let someone give them a few 100B$ and the pakis will be sabre rattling again. Their whole existence is predicated on gazwa e hind, which is their army motto - and that's not by accident.
I like the current slow boiling phase... May it last a long time!

[SSridhar]

In India, Pakistan occupies very little Indian focus these days. We need multiple Chairs on China.

[Manish_P]

...
2) At least read enough on Pakistan. At least three of the following:
a) Shivs primer
b) Ghost Wars
c) C. Fair's Fighting To The End
d) Hussein Haqqani- Reimagining Pakistan
e) Hussein Haqqani- Magnificent Delusions
f) Hussein Haqqani- Between Mosque and Military
g) S. Cohen- The Idea of Pakistan
..

would suggest to add

h) Ayesha Siddiqa - Military Inc.

[yensoy]

^^^^ The series by Prof Ishtiaq Ahmed is very illuminating because it starts tracing the disease right from the bio lab where the virus was incubated; the foundation of lies & cover-ups and missed opportunities.

[Leonard]

This video & clapping at the End -- shows the "Finality" of the "prophet" as reached the English Paki Elite

Jihadi Clear Shaved Bengali ... Enjoy ...

Death ..

Economy window
Security Window

https://twitter.com/i/status/1686720453623070721

There's ONE solution
Will they NOW turn around and stab the "Chinis" ?
Sell the "CHINI" -- langotis/marbles to Uncle Sam ?

[SSridhar]

would suggest to add

h) Ayesha Siddiqa - Military Inc.

There has been nothing that bested BRf of those days.

The first post of every Terroristan thread has distilled knowledge of that.