Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

[member_28656]

http://www.biotechniques.com/news/biote ... uCqKPl96Hs

Published on the 9th of March

[Murugan]

9,000-year-old signs of farming found in India's Ganga plains

A team of dedicated scientists led by Anjali Trivedi of BSIP and D P Tiwari, professor of Ancient Indian History and Archaeology department of LU found the 9,000-year-old pollen which proved existence of agricultural practices in the region during the Mesolithic age.

The study revealed that the region from Rae Bareli to Unnao had climate and vegetation suitable for farming at a time when humans in most of the world were surviving on hunting and trying to find new vegetable food sources. "It could broadly be termed the Mesolithic (middle stone age) age and the area seemed to have human habitat with organised agricultural practices," said Anjali Trivedi.

The study not only throws light on the climate, culture and human habitat it will also help in studying future climatic conditions. Moreover, it will help study palaeo lakes which include shifting of river due to tectonic activities or other reasons, she added.

More power to Nilesh Oak

Read more at: http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot. ... g.facebook

[Pulikeshi]

Watch it. Everyone.

Thanks for the link was very good presentation... several other points would make it even more powerful...

1. There is a ton of evidence of large ships even from the Rig Veda...

Ex: Golden ships from the ocean - below:

[6.58.3] yÁs te pUSan nÁvo antáH samudré hiraNyáyIr antárikSe cáranti
[6.58.3] tÁbhir yAsi dUtyÁM sÚryasya kÁmena kRta shráva ichámAnaH

Ex: When Varuna and I go boating - below:

[7.88.3] Á yád ruhÁva váruNash ca nÁvam prá yát samudrám IráyAva mádhyam
[7.88.3] ádhi yád apÁM snúbhish cárAva prá preGkhá IGkhayAvahai shubhé kám

Ex: When we have mention of oars on divine boats

[10.63.10] sutrÁmANam pRthivÍM dyÁm anehásaM sushármANam áditiM supráNItim
[10.63.10] daívIM nÁvaM svaritrÁm ánAgasam ásravantIm Á ruhemA svastáye


2. There is mention of different methods of taxation for ocean going merchants -
in the various Smriti esp. Manu's version. (interest rates - yes they got written into the law book unlike GST )

3. Very happy to see he discovered the idea that Temples were banks in yore - but they were slightly different -
The Temples were where the contracts were signed and the contracts enforced. This happens even today in
villages in India. The guilds (Incorporated Partnerships has very clear provisions in the Manu and other Smritis)
were also banks and they carried insurance as well as charitable arms that ran out of the Temples. The Rajan
had to be beholden to the power exerted by these ancient multi-nationals out of India.

[shiv]

Watch it. Everyone.

[youtube]SoyPwRh4nRg&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

What a fabulous video. Shows how much a British view of history has fckued up the minds of the last 4-5 generations of Indians. Needs to be spread far and wide

[shiv]

For those who do not read Sanskrit or do not know the Vedas (most of us) this article is the single most valuable one I have even come across. Read, absorb and save a copy..
http://trivenijournalindia.com/somethou ... yjan78.htm

The following needs to be noted when anyone speaks of Vedas as histories or chronicles or "horse culture"

It is of great significance that the Mimamsa and Vedanta schools do not admit that knowledge of empirical facts can be derived from the Veda. This implies that the Veda does not contain history or science. An eternal book cannot deal with temporal evanescent events, nor can a book intended to provide knowledge regarding truths unknowable through sense perception and inference contain empirical facts or scientific generalisations based on them.

[Pulikeshi]

It is of great significance that the Mimamsa and Vedanta schools do not admit that knowledge of empirical facts can be derived from the Veda. This implies that the Veda does not contain history or science. An eternal book cannot deal with temporal evanescent events, nor can a book intended to provide knowledge regarding truths unknowable through sense perception and inference contain empirical facts or scientific generalisations based on them.

!Book, but eternal - otherwise everything above is ok onlee
Ironic as I may have been first historically to point this point on this forum - but that ship has sailed!
This itihasa continues... the human attempt to gleam knowledge aka facts from the Veda does as well.
As a traditionalist I am against it, but as someone still deracinated it is a inconvenient addiction.

[Prem]

Yoga is indeed India and not of Swedish O"rigin

[Prem]

40000 years old Narasimha lion-man Idol found in Germany
http://theboldindian.com/40000-years-ol ... n-germany/

It was discovered in the Hohlenstein-Stadel, a German cave in 1939.This 29.6 cm (11.7 inches) in height, 5.6 cm wide, and 5.9 cm thick sculpture.It was carved out of woolly mammoth ivory using a flint stone knife. Seven parallel, transverse, carved gouges are on the left arm. It is now in the museum in Ulm, Germany. By 2015, the ancient figurine was more appropriately being called a lion-headed figurine and identified as Löwenmensch.Most of its pieces were found in 1939 in a cave named Stadel-Höhle in Hohlenstein Mountain in the Lone valley in the Swabian Alb, Germany. Due to the beginning of the Second World War, it was forgotten and only rediscovered thirty years later. The first reconstruction revealed a humanoid figurine without a head. Between 1997 and 1998, additional pieces of the sculpture were discovered and the head was reassembled and restored.After this artifact was identified, a similar, but smaller, lion-headed human sculpture was found, along with other animal figurines and several flutes, in another cave in the same region of Germany. This leads to the possibility that the Löwenmensch figurine played an important role in the mythology of humans of the early Upper Paleolithic.The nearly one-foot tall sculpture may be seen in the Ulmer Museum in Ulm, Germany, following these discoveries, female figurines from approximately the same prehistoric period, have been discovered in the same mountainous area of Germany.The name currently used in German is, Löwenmensch—meaning “lion-human”.Narasimha (Narasiṁha, lit. man-lion), is an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu and one of Hinduism’s most popular deities, as evidenced in early epics, iconography, and temple and festival worship for over a millennium.Narasiṁha is often visualised as having a human-like torso and lower body, with a lion-like face and claws. This image is widely worshiped in deity form by a significant number of Vaiṣṇava groups. Vishnu assumed this form on top of Himvat mountain (Harivamsa). He is known primarily as the ‘Great Protector’ who specifically defends and protects his devotees in times of need. Seven parallel, transverse, carved gouges are on the left arm. They represent 7 music octaves (sapta swaras), 7 color bands, 7 chakras ,7 aural layers and 7 continents.

[JE Menon]

Jhujar, where is the above image of the skeleton seated in yoga posture from?

[Virendra]

Menon Saab,

Google 'balathal' (in Udaipur, Rajasthan).
http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/tag/balathal/
That guy is 2500 BCE - 2000 BCE, non-Harappan (Ahar-Banas culture) and a leper.
By the way Ahar is also the first capital of Mewar's Guhilot dynasty.

Regards,
Virendra

[JE Menon]

Thanks Virendra...

[shiv]

Watch it. Everyone.

[youtube]SoyPwRh4nRg&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

One very minor error in this video. He points out that Harappan artefacts have been found all over the middle east, but it is not known what the Harappsns imported from there. I have read that Harappans imported copper tools from Oman, and I know that RAW materials like semi precious stones for MadeinIndia Harappan beads came from BMAC (Central Asia/Afghanistan. Proves the Pakistani accusation that RAW has been active in Afghanistan for a very long time.

[Prem]

Mittars, Dridrikshak Vachitter Chittar On Tittar
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?begi ... =Translate
By Bharti Named The Indian Interest.
Greek goddess Artemis with Svastika, C. 2600–2250 BC, found in the ruins of the great city of Troy.

[ramana]

So they were Indic. No wonder the Greeks finished them off.

[Prem]

Troy was found in Turkey, walking distance from Taxila.

[ramana]

Also note that is same area as the Hittites were present.

[shiv]

Also note that is same area as the Hittites were present.

I am getting more and more suspicious about thie "hittite" business from a linguistics viewpoint. I can't put my finger on it but I get the feeling that Hittites have been a convenient fudging point where some assumptions have been made and passed off as fact. The same thing was done with Mitanni, the fully cooked up "Avestan" language and of course AIT

[A_Gupta]

9,000-year-old signs of farming found in India's Ganga plains

A team of dedicated scientists led by Anjali Trivedi of BSIP and D P Tiwari, professor of Ancient Indian History and Archaeology department of LU found the 9,000-year-old pollen which proved existence of agricultural practices in the region during the Mesolithic age.

As far as I can tell, don't trust the media to get any details right.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/An ... 097b12.pdf

"Holocene vegetation and climate change in Central Ganga Plain: A study based on multiproxy records from Chaudhary-Ka-Tal, Raebareli District, Uttar Pradesh, India Anju Saxena, Anjali Trivedi, M.S. Chauhan, Anupam Sharma Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeobotany, 53 University Road, Lucknow 226007, India"

The first encounter of Cerealia pollen around 7500 BP at the depth of 190 cm in the lithocolumn together with other concomitant cropland weeds such as Cheno/Am, C.sativa, and Brassica suggests the commencement of cereal-based agricultural practice in the vicinity of the lake as well as other kinds of anthropogenic activities in the adjoining region. The pollen and phytolith evidence further supports that this important event is almost contemporaneous to the incipient agricultural practice reported from Lahuradewa Lake in the Central Ganga Plain (Saxena et al., 2006; Chauhan et al., 2009).

Somehow 7500 BP (before present) has been translated to 9000 years-old by the press.

[johneeG]

Also note that is same area as the Hittites were present.

I am getting more and more suspicious about thie "hittite" business from a linguistics viewpoint. I can't put my finger on it but I get the feeling that Hittites have been a convenient fudging point where some assumptions have been made and passed off as fact. The same thing was done with Mitanni, the fully cooked up "Avestan" language and of course AIT

Velikovsky believed hittites didnt exist.

Any reason for your suspicions?

[A_Gupta]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... population
Look at the last paper mentioned there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ifferences

Mohammad Ali et al. (2014), Characterizing the genetic differences between two distinct migrant groups from Indo-European and Dravidian speaking populations in India, BMC Genetics 2014, 15:86 doi:10.1186/1471-2156-15-86 full text

[Pulikeshi]

^^^Saar if Nature has impact factor of 40ish and Cell is 30ish and PlosBio is 10ish -
BMC Genetics is 2ish

Even I could get published if I had time to cook up a story! Fit the data to model or model to data?
There is so much wrong with the data and process it is not worth me time to even rebuke this trash!
Tell me your hypothesis - I will find the data

[Lalmohan]

So they were Indic. No wonder the Greeks finished them off.

which greeks? the doric (aryan theory) ones or the egyptian origin dark skinned ones?

it seems that the AIT was also applied to the greek civilisation by the northern europeans

[shiv]

^^^Saar if Nature has impact factor of 40ish and Cell is 30ish and PlosBio is 10ish -
BMC Genetics is 2ish

Even I could get published if I had time to cook up a story! Fit the data to model or model to data?
There is so much wrong with the data and process it is not worth me time to even rebuke this trash!
Tell me your hypothesis - I will find the data

Arun I would agree with this. It is a waste of my time picking holes in this useless paper. If you have any specific issues with it please point out and I will try and answer. There are just too many deficiencies and use of "clever language" to make this paper stand out as anything worth looking at.

But when you ignore the poor selection and methods used, you still find that this is a classic case of petitio principii - that is the conclusion is the same as the premise.

The premise is that Gujjus are fair skinned (are they?) and South Indians are dark skinned. This genetic study found a skin pigment associated marker more in Houston Gujjus than in Singapore Tamils. The conclusions reached from this are too stupid to stand scrutiny because the starting populations have no caste data or skin pigmentation record data. Only assumptions of what generally happens. How the authors can judge sexual selection of colour by caste people with no mention of caste or colour data in the study population and from findings in a non-sex chromosome (Chromosome 15) is a complete mystery to me.

Apart from that the report shows the exact opposite. A "European disease" gene (Parkinsons) more common in the Singapore Tamils than Houston Gujjus

That apart a study to show if Houston Gujjus were closer to Toscany Italians than Singapore Tamils found that Houston Gujjus and Singapore Tamils are closer to each other than Toscany Italians

The author may be a Paki but even if he isn't this paper is evidence of the damage done by AIT where people start with an assumption and try to prove it and grab at anything that looks likely to them

This image says it all. SDREs all cluster to one side, away from other homogenous populations of CEU(NW Europe), TSI (Toscany Italians), Han Chinese and Yaruba Injuns and there is great sharing of SDRE genes - exactly as reported earlier by Reich, Thangaraj Moorjani etc

[shiv]

I am getting more and more suspicious about thie "hittite" business from a linguistics viewpoint. I can't put my finger on it but I get the feeling that Hittites have been a convenient fudging point where some assumptions have been made and passed off as fact. The same thing was done with Mitanni, the fully cooked up "Avestan" language and of course AIT

Velikovsky believed hittites didnt exist.

Any reason for your suspicions?

Velikovsky? Thanks for the hint. I will dig deeper.

To me this entire Hittite business seems totally fake. It is very difficult to find any logical or convincing description of how Hittite was translated. The story sounds totally fake to me. Somehow linguists convinced themselves that it was an "Indo-European" language and then used the transcribed sounds from Akkadian Cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphics to make up words - and those words were compared with European languages to make up meanings.

Just look at this Hittite word list.
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/hittit ... ittite.htm
One can even find similarities with Dravidian languages if you use your imagination. If you smoke a hashish joint then so much the better. If you thought utter crap could not get worse you need to read how linguists use word reconstruction to
1. Reconstruct an older language
2. Make a connection between one language and another

For example if I want to find the connection between English cock and Hindi lauda - both slang for penis I will say that there was an old language - maybe PIE itself which had a word for penis that got gradually converted. I would say that in PIE the word for penis must have been hchlauhha, That was pronounced as khlauhha The "h" is a larynygeal sound that later disappeared. It used to be there - (I can hear it clearly every time I smoke a chillum). In English the "l" became silent and the laryngeal "h" was dropped to get kohh - later cock. In Hindi also the first 'h' laryngeal was dropped but the second "h" laryingeal retained and the "l" remained and they had laughha - later lauda

So now we all know that lauda and cock are words for penis in Indo-European languages derived from the original PIE word hchlauhha

Anyone who does not believe that people will actually do this needs to do some reading and Hittite is at the top of this list where not only have the meanings been cooked up, but every time the word has not souded very likely they have introduced "old sounds' like "laryngeals" that have now totally vanished,

When I look at this and I compare with what was done with Avestan - another totally totally cooked up language - I think "fu(kin heck these buggers have pulled a massive joke on us - but we are the jokers

[ramana]

So they were Indic. No wonder the Greeks finished them off.

which greeks? the doric (aryan theory) ones or the egyptian origin dark skinned ones?

it seems that the AIT was also applied to the greek civilisation by the northern europeans

The Greeks in Illiad finished them off!!!!

[shiv]

Another thing that is becoming increasingly apparent to me is that we have liberal secular Macaulayite Indians laughing at "outlandish" theories like Taj Mahal was Tejo Mahalaya and that Kaaba was a Shiva temple. What these brainwashed souls don;t realize is that languages like "Hittite" and "Avestan" that play a key role in the language origin and spread theory are totally faked. The whole thing is a hoax if you look deeper and everything fits in with the 19th century need to prove the superiority of Europe's Christians over the Semites.

Hittite is declared the oldest Indo-European language by a series of cooked up translations and worse "linguistic rules" that create sounds that used to exist but don't exist any more to show connections and a history. People who believe this story are called "intellectuals" and "historians". People who believe the Tejo Mahalaya or OIT theory are called "Hindutva-vadis" or "Hindu revisionists"

But the 19th and 20 century jokers who made up stuff about Hittites and Avestans were the original revisionists. The lies run so deep that it will be a century before these people's lies can be defrocked.

[shiv]

Here is one more guy who believes that this whole Hittite-Indo-European connection is cooked up
http://www.polatkaya.net/Hittites.htm

Interestingly he and Wiki speak of a city called:

Purushanda (also variously Purushkanda, Purushhattum or Burushattum)

Someone figure that out..

[Lilo]

Menon Saab,

Google 'balathal' (in Udaipur, Rajasthan).
http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/tag/balathal/
That guy is 2500 BCE - 2000 BCE, non-Harappan (Ahar-Banas culture) and a leper.
By the way Ahar is also the first capital of Mewar's Guhilot dynasty.

Regards,
Virendra

There is a mistake here.
Leper is someone else not pictured in the article.He is from 2500 -2000 BCE .
The excavated samadhi with padmasana is of a yogi from 900 BCE according to the article .

[Prem]

So they were Indic. No wonder the Greeks finished them offwhich greeks? the doric (aryan theory) ones or the egyptian origin dark skinned ones?
it seems that the AIT was also applied to the greek civilisation by the northern europeans
The Greeks in Illiad finished them off!!!!

Story did not end with fall of Troy.People of Troy actually spreaded all over in the area and went on establishing new empires , Roman Empire being one of them. Roam senators wearing lungi have been always a mystery. They did not wear robe like other EUropponous Cuckootonous. May be this explain the existence of Swastika in Roman palaces and temples. It must have remained popular till Church destroyed many sacred places and symbols in that part of the world.
PIE =Purely Inbred Example

[A_Gupta]

For other reasons, I'm looking up Paul de Lagarde. Interestingly, he supposedly explains Avestan words in terms of Armenian (see the 4th work, "Beitrage zur Baktrischen Lexikographie").

[csaurabh]

To me this entire Hittite business seems totally fake. It is very difficult to find any logical or convincing description of how Hittite was translated. The story sounds totally fake to me. Somehow linguists convinced themselves that it was an "Indo-European" language and then used the transcribed sounds from Akkadian Cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphics to make up words - and those words were compared with European languages to make up meanings.

Just look at this Hittite word list.
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/hittit ... ittite.htm
One can even find similarities with Dravidian languages if you use your imagination. If you smoke a hashish joint then so much the better. If you thought utter crap could not get worse you need to read how linguists use word reconstruction to
1. Reconstruct an older language
2. Make a connection between one language and another

For example if I want to find the connection between English cock and Hindi lauda - both slang for penis I will say that there was an old language - maybe PIE itself which had a word for penis that got gradually converted. I would say that in PIE the word for penis must have been hchlauhha, That was pronounced as khlauhha The "h" is a larynygeal sound that later disappeared. It used to be there - (I can hear it clearly every time I smoke a chillum). In English the "l" became silent and the laryngeal "h" was dropped to get kohh - later cock. In Hindi also the first 'h' laryngeal was dropped but the second "h" laryingeal retained and the "l" remained and they had laughha - later lauda

So now we all know that lauda and cock are words for penis in Indo-European languages derived from the original PIE word hchlauhha

Anyone who does not believe that people will actually do this needs to do some reading and Hittite is at the top of this list where not only have the meanings been cooked up, but every time the word has not souded very likely they have introduced "old sounds' like "laryngeals" that have now totally vanished,

When I look at this and I compare with what was done with Avestan - another totally totally cooked up language - I think "fu(kin heck these buggers have pulled a massive joke on us - but we are the jokers

The whole theory of languages was cooked up by 'linguists' in the 19th century and should not be considered a science.

Applying a non-western perspective: For thousands of years we lived together and did not know that there were 'Aryan' and 'Dravidian' languages. Not only that but we were trading with China, Indonesia, Arabia, Africa, etc. where the inhabitants did not speak 'Aryan' or 'Dravidian' languages either. So why did we not come to the same conclusions as the European 'linguists' ?

[shiv]

For other reasons, I'm looking up Paul de Lagarde. Interestingly, he supposedly explains Avestan words in terms of Armenian (see the 4th work, "Beitrage zur Baktrischen Lexikographie").

Unfortunately all "words" of Avestan to be compared with Armenian or any other language have come from a Sanskrit version of a Middle Persian Language text written about 600 years ago (IIRC) - by an Indian - and that was about 2000 years after the real speakers of the Zoroastrian language existed. The basic problem is that and is something that even Witzel laments,

Avestan is a cooked up language with reconstructions" and "sound changes" simply concocted using the above text as "original source". I used to think this was bad - but it appears that Hittite is worse. Both Hittite and Avestan have been given important roles to play in the spread of PIE from Europe to the rest of the world

[shiv]

The whole theory of languages was cooked up by 'linguists' in the 19th century and should not be considered a science.

Applying a non-western perspective: For thousands of years we lived together and did not know that there were 'Aryan' and 'Dravidian' languages. Not only that but we were trading with China, Indonesia, Arabia, Africa, etc. where the inhabitants did not speak 'Aryan' or 'Dravidian' languages either. So why did we not come to the same conclusions as the European 'linguists' ?

Colonized minds, learning the story so far:

PIE was the real mother language 3000-2000 BC - spoken somewhere in Europe. These people came down and formed the Hittite empire speaking the Hittile language. Hitite language has been deciphered by guesswork where a the "Hittite word" Watar has been translated as "water" - and so on..After 2000 BC Hittites we have the 1800 BC Mitanni people in Syria who wrote in sanskrit but it cannot be called Sanskrit unless you are a Hindu revisionist. These people went to Persia and split up into Zoroastrians and Hindoos who then went to the Poonjaab and wrote the Rig Veda where the remembered their ancestors in Europe.

IVC? Hapappa? 3000 BC? Stop talking shit you Hindutvavadi. First learn religious tolerance

[Zynda]

Watch it. Everyone.

Very good talk. In fact, I watched his other talk as well. Think I will buy his book "Land of 7 Rivers". Being a popular history book, suits perfect for me...

[vishvak]

..
Avestan is a cooked up language with reconstructions" and "sound changes" simply concocted using the above text as "original source". I used to think this was bad - but it appears that Hittite is worse. Both Hittite and Avestan have been given important roles to play in the spread of PIE from Europe to the rest of the world

It is like saying that Kashmir Shaivism is English version of earlier Samskrit Agama text simply because some goras have translated some text first, while hippie crowd of alleged intellectuals have simply not studied our own texts - and also because edjyooocayshun won't certify such a study as valid except some hand weave certification.

It is no surprise then that invaders writing history will be about invasions onlee, while taboos (ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits), ignorance (kamoonalism), deception (invaders==good) will decide politically correct discourse. The same history will totally ignore invasion by no gooders like Portuguese in India and outside.

Note: wiki on Kashmir Shaivism: link

[Prem]

The Indian Interest ‏@indianinterest
A 1898 Yale University study map showing where Svastikas were found. Why no modern research by Indian historians?
Location of India is right in the middle. Haan! Were ancient trading routes same ?

[vishvak]

(* -See end for comment)
But, this adds not much at all to any narratives without solid proof such as:
* Hinduism is from Hawaii and Yoga evolved from titillating Hawaiian dance forms over weekends - by weekend is what current intellect on timeframe of a calendar provides for.
* All Indians are part of Afro-dalit ancestry if that can be provided by selective gene sequencing sample permutation/combinations not before 100 years hence.
* Kashmiri Shaivism, for example, is actually something else formed originally in Europe post enlightenment/modern/post-modern time frame in totally different language/form/methodology which is apparently exclusive of the same.
* colonization really taught heathens/pagaans daily bath and thus civilized, but an extent only so as to beholden to roughly idea of ghulams' mustafa and no better.
* After peaceful end of colonization, there was not much good news but the region held together [/strike]under saint Gandhi empire[/strike], there were a few elections like in Pakistan.
* Then someone unquestionably wrote biography in the style of Main Kampf, etc etc. thereby inviting guilt flipping.

etc etc.
* - Sorry, going OT here, difficult to see where narrative is going!

[Pulikeshi]

^^^ Perhaps not the question you asked - if there was one:

The European racists who came up with their Aryan Invasion madness were a coherent group - while there was some
-phobia and -pelia as Trautmann and others have shown, overall the geo-politico-economic agenda trumped to produce
a large body of the 'works', PIE and what not - a literal literary/academic pogrom against the Gentoo in Hindustan so to speak.

At Independence with transfer of power to the INC/Leftist/Marxist - a proxy was created to retain, regurgitate
and propagate this pogrom against the Gentoo in Hindustan - more or less successfully for a century now.
Useful Idiots can also be successful!

With the population and economic decline in Europe, the European racists have reached out to their cousins in
the Americas, Australia, NZ and continued their collaboration with the Islamists - overt and covert to take over and
propagate this pogrom against the Gentoo in Hindustan.

* - Sorry, going OT here, difficult to see where narrative is going!

Where this is going is dependent on geo-politico-economic outcomes:

1. If the 'West' remains numero uno - expect this pogrom to continue. Demographic changes in the West will
make this pogrom difficult in the near future, new 'works' will have to be commissioned and committed.
Even if not all of the West is racist, the pogrom has reached levels of sophistication that it is enough for a few
committed SS Academics to continue their well managed pogrom with aide and abetment from willing natives
(Mr. Murthy comes to mind... thousand others) to keep the Gentoo in Hindustan committed to their current Zugzwang move.

2. If India becomes a geo-politico-economic power - especially one with a rising middle-class - then expect the
backlash against the pogrom to occur, with the usual vilification of being right wing Hindutvawadis, ityadi.
However, a large portion of these folks are going to be fighting the 'works' already committed on their identity.
Very few will eventually emerge that put forth an alternative to the pogrom so to speak...

Therefore the correct question to ask - What do YOU want the Gentoo narrative to be?

[shiv]

(* -See end for comment)
But, this adds not much at all to any narratives without solid proof such as:
* Hinduism is from Hawaii and Yoga evolved from titillating Hawaiian dance forms over weekends - by weekend is what current intellect on timeframe of a calendar provides for.
* All Indians are part of Afro-dalit ancestry if that can be provided by selective gene sequencing sample permutation/combinations not before 100 years hence.
* Kashmiri Shaivism, for example, is actually something else formed originally in Europe post enlightenment/modern/post-modern time frame in totally different language/form/methodology which is apparently exclusive of the same.
* colonization really taught heathens/pagaans daily bath and thus civilized, but an extent only so as to beholden to roughly idea of ghulams' mustafa and no better.
* After peaceful end of colonization, there was not much good news but the region held together [/strike]under saint Gandhi empire[/strike], there were a few elections like in Pakistan.
* Then someone unquestionably wrote biography in the style of Main Kampf, etc etc. thereby inviting guilt flipping.

etc etc.
* - Sorry, going OT here, difficult to see where narrative is going!

The narrative going in a thousand different directions other than the currently accepted one is actually a good thing even if the narratives sound like they are wrong.

That is because:
1. The currently "accepted" (western vs oriental) narrative is also wrong
2. The currently "accepted" narrative also went through many iterations of what they later called "wild" or "unacceptable" theories before they settled on a final bullshit theory that everyone was willing to accept in Europe and was forced down oriental throats.

These "accepted" narratives were formalized and printed in large "scholarly volumes" by the end of the 1800s and early 1900s. Most of those books are available only in Western libraries. Access is impossible or very expensive. The specious bullshit narratives that they "froze" as "current knowledge" is now passed on as cross references or "cites" in later books and articles that are freely available.

If we want to be "honest" and "dharmic" and "true to our ideals" and "take a principled stand" we will have to
1. Find all the modern articles that quote old, unavailable sources
2. Locate those sources, quote from them and say why they were wrong
3. Then state your new theory and say why you think it is right

This was never done originally. No one questioned the assumptions made by a thousand Indologists and orientalists when they were making up wild stuff and telling us about us and how they figured that out oh so rationally. Now our cargo cult minds strut about mouthing stuff that Europeans told us about us and get upset the minute anyone questions those narratives of what the Europeans told us about us. We ask for European methodology to disprove bullshit. It ain't gonna happen because the same European methodology was used to create the bullshit in the first place.

The other alternative is to simply flood "infospace" with all sorts of new theories, rejecting the old ones. Those who keep quoting the old theories will either be smothered or they will have to fight it out and make all those old, inaccessible sources publicly available where they can be torn down. The latter is not going to happen because many of those old references are in German, French and Dutch and no one is actually going to re read them.

I can now see why it is so attractive to simply burn old libraries and centers of learning and killing their custodians- the Christian and Islamic technique of spreading "new knowledge". A lot of people who remain sentimental about old knowledge may be sad but typically old knowledge collects up old bullshit. or old unreadable, untranslatable stuff as well which will all be removed in one go.

So let a thousand dung beetles prosper. They fertilize the field for tomorrows roses.

As Confucius said "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit"

[A_Gupta]

Shiv, thee joker in the pack is new technology. Digitizations, computrerization, machine learning & processing of natural languages. Sooner or later all the 19th century work will be revisited. The question is - will Indians be prepared (or even drive this)?